1 00:00:05,300 --> 00:00:08,660 ELIZABETH CHOE: So I think the idea of a workshop-based class, 2 00:00:08,660 --> 00:00:12,030 a hands-on class, that's what's becoming trendy in education. 3 00:00:12,030 --> 00:00:13,740 At least at MIT right now. 4 00:00:13,740 --> 00:00:17,640 It's bringing it back to mind and hand. 5 00:00:17,640 --> 00:00:19,470 They won't work if students don't 6 00:00:19,470 --> 00:00:23,450 bring anything to workshop or have anything ready. 7 00:00:23,450 --> 00:00:27,030 So that's why the first two or three days of class 8 00:00:27,030 --> 00:00:31,149 were very, very information intense to bring them up 9 00:00:31,149 --> 00:00:33,690 to the point where they had a script that they could actually 10 00:00:33,690 --> 00:00:36,620 read aloud at the table read. 11 00:00:36,620 --> 00:00:39,600 Or that they would have a scene they could storyboard. 12 00:00:44,100 --> 00:00:46,790 How was it leading the workshops? 13 00:00:46,790 --> 00:00:49,590 Because I could kind of let you guys take over for those. 14 00:00:49,590 --> 00:00:52,810 JOSHUA GUNN: Yeah, I mean I think it was great. 15 00:00:52,810 --> 00:00:55,890 I mean, I think we couldn't have done 16 00:00:55,890 --> 00:00:58,540 what we did if they hadn't come to the class 17 00:00:58,540 --> 00:01:02,390 with a portion of a script that they could storyboard. 18 00:01:02,390 --> 00:01:05,260 Or do some sort of storyboard work on. 19 00:01:05,260 --> 00:01:10,720 I think maybe in the future you might think about having-- 20 00:01:10,720 --> 00:01:12,210 well, I don't have. 21 00:01:12,210 --> 00:01:14,220 Setting it up so that there's instruction 22 00:01:14,220 --> 00:01:19,750 about say, storyboarding, and examples and kind of models. 23 00:01:19,750 --> 00:01:22,660 Then have them do that and then have them return 24 00:01:22,660 --> 00:01:23,680 for the critique. 25 00:01:23,680 --> 00:01:28,760 As opposed to trying to compress all of that into one class. 26 00:01:28,760 --> 00:01:30,770 But again, that requires more time. 27 00:01:34,880 --> 00:01:38,490 GEORGE ZAIDAN: My only workshop-- workshops 28 00:01:38,490 --> 00:01:42,130 are great because it means that you rely a lot more on stuff 29 00:01:42,130 --> 00:01:45,770 that you sort of just know and can talk off the cuff about 30 00:01:45,770 --> 00:01:50,565 and don't have to prepare long lectures, which is fantastic. 31 00:01:50,565 --> 00:01:51,940 ELIZABETH CHOE: But that requires 32 00:01:51,940 --> 00:01:54,367 that you actually are just natively an expert in that. 33 00:01:54,367 --> 00:01:56,200 GEORGE ZAIDAN: But the nice thing about that 34 00:01:56,200 --> 00:01:59,750 is that you can reduce the time you spend speaking 35 00:01:59,750 --> 00:02:04,220 and increase the time that they spend working and speaking. 36 00:02:04,220 --> 00:02:06,930 And I think the earlier that you get the students talking 37 00:02:06,930 --> 00:02:09,600 and doing things things in the workshop, 38 00:02:09,600 --> 00:02:13,650 the more quickly they realize that it's not a lecture. 39 00:02:13,650 --> 00:02:15,780 And that they're not going to sit there and absorb. 40 00:02:15,780 --> 00:02:18,430 That they have to actually do something. 41 00:02:18,430 --> 00:02:20,740 ELIZABETH CHOE: So you had people reading their scripts 42 00:02:20,740 --> 00:02:22,240 from the beginning of your workshop. 43 00:02:22,240 --> 00:02:23,460 There was no easing into it. 44 00:02:23,460 --> 00:02:25,950 It was pretty much just like all right, this 45 00:02:25,950 --> 00:02:29,350 is the script that so and so submitted last night 46 00:02:29,350 --> 00:02:31,110 OK, come up and read it for us. 47 00:02:31,110 --> 00:02:32,280 GEORGE ZAIDAN: Yeah. 48 00:02:32,280 --> 00:02:36,740 And then they get over their nerves and they just do it. 49 00:02:36,740 --> 00:02:39,190 And then you roll into it. 50 00:02:39,190 --> 00:02:42,010 The hard thing about doing that is-- giving feedback 51 00:02:42,010 --> 00:02:45,530 in a workshop is tough because you can't just 52 00:02:45,530 --> 00:02:47,840 be like great job. 53 00:02:47,840 --> 00:02:48,395 Go sit down. 54 00:02:48,395 --> 00:02:50,270 That was great that you did it, but we're not 55 00:02:50,270 --> 00:02:53,160 going to give you any constructive criticism. 56 00:02:53,160 --> 00:02:55,862 You've got to say OK, here's what I would do differently. 57 00:02:55,862 --> 00:02:57,320 But you have to do it in such a way 58 00:02:57,320 --> 00:03:01,070 that it's not ego destroying. 59 00:03:01,070 --> 00:03:03,210 And that applies for any of the stuff. 60 00:03:06,004 --> 00:03:07,670 It's hard to do, especially for hosting, 61 00:03:07,670 --> 00:03:11,380 because there you're commenting on their tone of voice, 62 00:03:11,380 --> 00:03:12,417 their delivery style-- 63 00:03:12,417 --> 00:03:13,750 ELIZABETH CHOE: Their existence. 64 00:03:13,750 --> 00:03:14,580 GEORGE ZAIDAN: The way they talk. 65 00:03:14,580 --> 00:03:15,080 You know? 66 00:03:17,390 --> 00:03:21,790 So it's a tricky thing to get. 67 00:03:21,790 --> 00:03:24,820 You sort of err on the side of being a little bit softer 68 00:03:24,820 --> 00:03:26,670 than you probably would be. 69 00:03:26,670 --> 00:03:29,390 JOSHUA GUNN: It's also-- sorry. 70 00:03:29,390 --> 00:03:31,680 It's also interesting to get them-- 71 00:03:31,680 --> 00:03:36,840 I think just from my basic pedagogical experience, 72 00:03:36,840 --> 00:03:39,440 because I did teach creative writing for a while. 73 00:03:39,440 --> 00:03:42,500 It's nice to get them-- to get students, 74 00:03:42,500 --> 00:03:46,700 as you said, doing peer work where they're critiquing 75 00:03:46,700 --> 00:03:49,960 each other so there isn't just this authority figure that 76 00:03:49,960 --> 00:03:51,050 has all the answers. 77 00:03:51,050 --> 00:03:53,940 There's also this innate sense that we all have, and students 78 00:03:53,940 --> 00:03:56,600 have, of what's working and what's not. 79 00:03:56,600 --> 00:03:58,370 Because they are audience members too 80 00:03:58,370 --> 00:04:00,362 and they have that audience sensibility. 81 00:04:00,362 --> 00:04:02,570 ELIZABETH CHOE: Actually a really important thing was 82 00:04:02,570 --> 00:04:07,690 to establish that the medium in which we are working had no 83 00:04:07,690 --> 00:04:10,370 established best practices, and that was something that I tried 84 00:04:10,370 --> 00:04:14,130 to emphasize a lot and say, you know, 85 00:04:14,130 --> 00:04:17,329 I have very strong opinions on what I think is good hosting 86 00:04:17,329 --> 00:04:18,260 and what isn't. 87 00:04:18,260 --> 00:04:20,100 But at the end of the day, you do 88 00:04:20,100 --> 00:04:23,220 what you want as long as you can justify it to me. 89 00:04:23,220 --> 00:04:26,200 You can take or leave my advice on how 90 00:04:26,200 --> 00:04:28,000 I think you should edit this section, 91 00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:30,610 but if you want to stick with what you have and you're 92 00:04:30,610 --> 00:04:32,752 able to write out why-- 93 00:04:32,752 --> 00:04:35,500 JOSHUA GUNN: You're going to get an F. 94 00:04:35,500 --> 00:04:37,000 ELIZABETH CHOE: But an A for effort. 95 00:04:40,630 --> 00:04:43,580 That's fine as long as I see that they're consciously 96 00:04:43,580 --> 00:04:45,980 processing their own personal taste. 97 00:04:49,090 --> 00:04:50,610 What was the thing you just said? 98 00:04:50,610 --> 00:04:52,140 GEORGE ZAIDAN: I'm saying that you 99 00:04:52,140 --> 00:04:54,870 don't want to just be the only person critiquing, which 100 00:04:54,870 --> 00:04:55,720 is really important. 101 00:04:55,720 --> 00:04:56,530 CHRIS BOEBEL: It's really, really important 102 00:04:56,530 --> 00:04:57,988 and I think one of the things about 103 00:04:57,988 --> 00:05:01,180 that too is trying to make the classroom I 104 00:05:01,180 --> 00:05:04,880 guess kind of a safe space where people can be really honest. 105 00:05:04,880 --> 00:05:06,574 And it's like, you know what? 106 00:05:06,574 --> 00:05:08,740 Someone is probably going to go at you and your work 107 00:05:08,740 --> 00:05:12,660 at some point, but you need to be OK with that. 108 00:05:12,660 --> 00:05:16,070 And if you feel that you need to be honest with somebody 109 00:05:16,070 --> 00:05:17,939 about their work, that's OK too. 110 00:05:17,939 --> 00:05:19,730 As long as you're not doing it on some kind 111 00:05:19,730 --> 00:05:22,530 of illegitimate grounds. 112 00:05:22,530 --> 00:05:24,420 If it's a legitimate critique, you 113 00:05:24,420 --> 00:05:26,485 should feel OK about saying it. 114 00:05:26,485 --> 00:05:28,110 JOSHUA GUNN: Yeah, that's a good point. 115 00:05:28,110 --> 00:05:33,220 I think too, it can sometimes be helpful to just kind of lay 116 00:05:33,220 --> 00:05:34,725 the ground rules of critique. 117 00:05:34,725 --> 00:05:35,600 Like what's personal. 118 00:05:35,600 --> 00:05:38,470 I mean, sometimes it's not obvious to students 119 00:05:38,470 --> 00:05:40,610 what's a personal attack. 120 00:05:40,610 --> 00:05:42,962 What's constructive criticism of the work. 121 00:05:42,962 --> 00:05:44,420 CHRIS BOEBEL: Sometimes people need 122 00:05:44,420 --> 00:05:45,740 instruction on peer review. 123 00:05:45,740 --> 00:05:47,170 JOSHUA GUNN: Yeah, exactly. 124 00:05:47,170 --> 00:05:50,820 You can't expect that people know the rules. 125 00:05:50,820 --> 00:05:52,320 ELIZABETH CHOE: Luckily, just having 126 00:05:52,320 --> 00:05:56,210 Jamie at every single class was really helpful. 127 00:05:56,210 --> 00:05:57,930 I mean, it's hard. 128 00:05:57,930 --> 00:05:59,730 In an ideal world, every class would 129 00:05:59,730 --> 00:06:02,180 have a staff of five people who are 130 00:06:02,180 --> 00:06:04,830 all experts on different facets of the industry. 131 00:06:04,830 --> 00:06:06,960 And then a dedicated instructional designer 132 00:06:06,960 --> 00:06:09,070 facilitating group discussions every day. 133 00:06:09,070 --> 00:06:11,370 JOSHUA GUNN: Two instructors per student. 134 00:06:11,370 --> 00:06:12,070 CHRIS BOEBEL: Let's recommend that. 135 00:06:12,070 --> 00:06:12,580 ELIZABETH CHOE: Right. 136 00:06:12,580 --> 00:06:14,038 But you know, that's what it takes. 137 00:06:14,038 --> 00:06:14,780 It really does. 138 00:06:14,780 --> 00:06:17,460 Because if Jamie wasn't there, I don't 139 00:06:17,460 --> 00:06:21,200 know how to facilitate classroom discussion. 140 00:06:21,200 --> 00:06:25,000 She would be able to interject and sort of coach 141 00:06:25,000 --> 00:06:28,330 these things subliminally without having 142 00:06:28,330 --> 00:06:31,470 to establish guys, these are the classroom rules. 143 00:06:31,470 --> 00:06:33,020 No picking on people. 144 00:06:33,020 --> 00:06:34,930 It was just all done very organically. 145 00:06:34,930 --> 00:06:37,990 And that's actually very hard. 146 00:06:37,990 --> 00:06:40,420 This is such a cop-out answer to be like, 147 00:06:40,420 --> 00:06:43,600 it's important to foster a good classroom space. 148 00:06:43,600 --> 00:06:44,180 Go do it. 149 00:06:44,180 --> 00:06:44,680 You know? 150 00:06:44,680 --> 00:06:49,780 But I don't really know how to give actionable items to people 151 00:06:49,780 --> 00:06:52,350 who are trying to do this in their schools. 152 00:06:52,350 --> 00:06:56,010 I think one thing I tried to do was, 153 00:06:56,010 --> 00:06:57,700 and this was off of Jamie's suggestion, 154 00:06:57,700 --> 00:07:00,680 was to do every single assignment that I assigned 155 00:07:00,680 --> 00:07:01,890 to the students. 156 00:07:01,890 --> 00:07:05,250 So on day one when they had to record a selfie pitch, 157 00:07:05,250 --> 00:07:07,780 I did it and I was like this is not perfect. 158 00:07:07,780 --> 00:07:09,840 And the next day I pointed out things 159 00:07:09,840 --> 00:07:12,710 that I didn't like about it or things that could have 160 00:07:12,710 --> 00:07:14,950 been better about my own work. 161 00:07:14,950 --> 00:07:17,990 So I think having something physical 162 00:07:17,990 --> 00:07:21,310 to be able to critique, to sort of show people 163 00:07:21,310 --> 00:07:22,800 how to critique it, you know? 164 00:07:22,800 --> 00:07:25,120 It's not even just show people what's wrong, 165 00:07:25,120 --> 00:07:29,470 but show people the active critiquing is really important. 166 00:07:29,470 --> 00:07:32,980 Because if you don't have the physical examples, 167 00:07:32,980 --> 00:07:36,940 it's just like saying lighting has to be done well. 168 00:07:36,940 --> 00:07:41,660 Well, if you don't show them an example of a well-lit scene, 169 00:07:41,660 --> 00:07:45,140 they're not going to be able to do it. 170 00:07:45,140 --> 00:07:47,450 CHRIS BOEBEL: The things you get from students 171 00:07:47,450 --> 00:07:49,940 who aren't used to giving that kind of critique 172 00:07:49,940 --> 00:07:54,289 tend to be either oh, it was good or I didn't like it. 173 00:07:54,289 --> 00:07:56,330 And neither one of those is particularly helpful. 174 00:07:56,330 --> 00:07:58,038 JOSHUA GUNN: Yeah, or in creative writing 175 00:07:58,038 --> 00:08:00,530 class students will be like, this is really deep. 176 00:08:05,135 --> 00:08:06,010 ELIZABETH CHOE: Yeah. 177 00:08:06,010 --> 00:08:09,460 But then to be able to be there as an instructor and say, OK. 178 00:08:09,460 --> 00:08:10,464 Why do you think that? 179 00:08:10,464 --> 00:08:11,630 CHRIS BOEBEL: Yeah, exactly. 180 00:08:11,630 --> 00:08:12,850 Why is it good? 181 00:08:12,850 --> 00:08:13,550 Why is it deep? 182 00:08:13,550 --> 00:08:14,972 Why didn't you like it? 183 00:08:14,972 --> 00:08:16,680 ELIZABETH CHOE: Questions that drive them 184 00:08:16,680 --> 00:08:20,650 to give a more tangible answer. 185 00:08:20,650 --> 00:08:24,090 That's really important in the live discussion. 186 00:08:24,090 --> 00:08:26,430 And it's important, I think, to have it in real time. 187 00:08:26,430 --> 00:08:28,390 Which is why I don't know how you 188 00:08:28,390 --> 00:08:31,120 can scale this experience up. 189 00:08:31,120 --> 00:08:32,690 If you offer this as an online class, 190 00:08:32,690 --> 00:08:34,880 for instance, I guess you could have forums where 191 00:08:34,880 --> 00:08:36,880 students critique each other. 192 00:08:36,880 --> 00:08:41,510 But again, without the guidance of someone who's practiced it. 193 00:08:41,510 --> 00:08:42,400 That limits you. 194 00:08:42,400 --> 00:08:45,180 And then someone who responds like, 195 00:08:45,180 --> 00:08:48,430 why do you think this was deep? 196 00:08:48,430 --> 00:08:51,406 The next day, you sort of lose that momentum. 197 00:08:51,406 --> 00:08:53,280 GEORGE ZAIDAN: I mean, the really great thing 198 00:08:53,280 --> 00:08:56,840 is when this sort of stuff happens on set. 199 00:08:56,840 --> 00:08:59,490 Like when we were shooting the episode about the exploding 200 00:08:59,490 --> 00:09:02,632 wire and our student host got to see you, 201 00:09:02,632 --> 00:09:04,090 me, and the director of photography 202 00:09:04,090 --> 00:09:06,590 get into a fight about why we thought the framing was wrong. 203 00:09:06,590 --> 00:09:08,154 And I mean, it was literally like, 204 00:09:08,154 --> 00:09:09,570 what do you think of this framing? 205 00:09:09,570 --> 00:09:10,700 I hate it. 206 00:09:10,700 --> 00:09:11,292 Why? 207 00:09:11,292 --> 00:09:13,500 Because it looks like an episode of Home Improvement? 208 00:09:13,500 --> 00:09:15,250 Like an actual episode of Home Improvement 209 00:09:15,250 --> 00:09:18,972 or the show that they were parodying in Home Improvement? 210 00:09:18,972 --> 00:09:19,930 No, the crappy version. 211 00:09:19,930 --> 00:09:20,160 OK. 212 00:09:20,160 --> 00:09:21,701 Well, let's figure out how to fix it. 213 00:09:21,701 --> 00:09:24,120 Like that's the kind of discussion that happens on set. 214 00:09:24,120 --> 00:09:26,619 ELIZABETH CHOE: And that is so much more helpful for someone 215 00:09:26,619 --> 00:09:31,260 to see than sometimes people struggle with framing. 216 00:09:31,260 --> 00:09:33,030 Here are some tips. 217 00:09:33,030 --> 00:09:37,070 Try to put the people in this framing. 218 00:09:37,070 --> 00:09:39,410 It might be more engaging. 219 00:09:39,410 --> 00:09:42,110 That's sort of how media things are presented right now. 220 00:09:42,110 --> 00:09:44,140 But to see like George and me fight, 221 00:09:44,140 --> 00:09:45,449 is one, way more entertaining. 222 00:09:45,449 --> 00:09:46,615 JOSHUA GUNN: I'm sure it is. 223 00:09:46,615 --> 00:09:49,360 ELIZABETH CHOE: But two, I think like she probably took 224 00:09:49,360 --> 00:09:53,720 a lot more out of that than watching a lecture series.