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Audio quality for this video
is poor due to technical

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difficulties.

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PROFESSOR: OK, today, political
barriers to

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educational change.

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"One had to cram all this stuff
into one's mind, whether

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one liked it or not.

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This coercion had such a
determined effect that after I

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had passed the final examination
I found the

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consideration of any
scientific problems

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00:00:45,950 --> 00:00:50,116
distasteful to me for an entire
year." Who said that?

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Einstein, so one of the greatest
scientists in the

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last 300 or 400 years.

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So that was the effect of
regular school and education

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on Einstein.

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And it's not just Einstein.

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It's a general pattern.

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So here, from Manchester, New
Hampshire, in the 1930's is

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how Bruce [? Betiset ?]
superintendent describes the

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children's approach to learning
and to reading and

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interest in knowledge.

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"In the traditional fourth
grades, when I asked children

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to tell me what they'd been
reading, they were hesitant,

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embarrassed, and diffident.

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In one fourth grade I cannot
find a single child who would

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admit that he had committed
the sin of reading.

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I did not have single volunteer
and when I tried to

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draft them, the children
stood up, shook

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their heads, sat down.

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In the four experimental fourth
grades the children

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fairly fought to tell me what
they had been reading.

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The hour closed-- in each case--
with a dozen hands

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00:01:56,619 --> 00:01:59,614
waved in the and little faces
crestfallen because we had not

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got around to hear what
they had to tell."

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00:02:02,780 --> 00:02:04,110
So the contrast is
pretty strong.

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00:02:04,110 --> 00:02:08,280
And the question is why do
experiments like what

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00:02:08,280 --> 00:02:11,000
[? Betiset ?] did not survive?

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00:02:11,000 --> 00:02:17,142
Whereas why does the education
system tend to have an effect

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such as Einstein described,
where he found the

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00:02:20,266 --> 00:02:20,621
consideration of any
scientific problems

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00:02:20,621 --> 00:02:22,600
distasteful an entire year?

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00:02:25,910 --> 00:02:32,144
So reading is a particular
example-- which I'll give you

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another one [INAUDIBLE]--

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00:02:34,550 --> 00:02:37,940
of the change and the
effect of the

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formal educational system.

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So in revolutionary America--

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so this is late 1770's--

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Thomas Paine's Common Sense
sold 120,000 copies.

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And their population then
was three million.

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OK, so that's 1/100th of
the population now.

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So the equivalent of 120,000
copies then was about 10

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million or 12 million
copies today.

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Now if you actually look at
Thomas Paine's Common Sense,

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it's written in a language,
today, that we

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would call very biblical.

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When we read it you use English
and we speak English

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but you wouldn't expect 12
million people to buy a book

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of that complexity
and subtlety.

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Now that expectation's is
confirmed by many a study

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about literacy and proficiency
in analyzing documents

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conducted across the
United States.

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So the latest one, it was in
2003, National Assessment of

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Adult Literacy.

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So this was published in 2005
by the US government.

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So they America in 2003 and
they tested three kinds of

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proficiencies.

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Prose proficiency, which is
comparing viewpoints and two

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editorials as an example of
something where if you have

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prose proficiency you have
document proficiency, which is

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interpreting a table about
blood pressure and any

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physical activity.

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So taking information from
doctors and [INAUDIBLE].

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And quantitative proficiency,
computing and comparing the

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cost and analysis
of food items.

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But none of these are very
advanced skills.

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OK now, the percentage of adults
who are proficient in

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each of these categories?

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13%.

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OK, now, 13% is a very, very
low number especially

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considering the level of
proficiency that's required,

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the threshold is pretty low.

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Whereas back in 1770's America
10 million, 12 million people

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equivalent today bought Thomas
Paine's Common Sense.

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And probably many of them were
not actually literate in the

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sense that they couldn't read.

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So that book was read to them.

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So there was a great hunger
for words and ideas and

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learning, which in many ways we
had not matched, despite or

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00:05:07,366 --> 00:05:12,942
because of the vast extent of
the schooling system and

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educational system.

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So suppose you want
to change this.

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You want to improve
the situation.

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You'd like to make
education better.

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00:05:22,531 --> 00:05:22,958
What are some of
the obstacles?

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00:05:22,958 --> 00:05:28,340
So I'm going to discuss the
obstacles in ascending order

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of difficulty in overcoming.

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So another way to phrase,
ascending order of

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how local they are.

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So the first obstacle I'm going
to discuss is one that's

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local to personal psychology.

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It's local to how people
individually act.

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00:05:46,625 --> 00:05:48,597
And then I'll move
to obstacles that

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are broader in scope.

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So the first obstacle is what
I'll call cognitive

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dissonance.

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So the way to see this in action
is suppose you go to

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someone and you say, well you
know, the way that that course

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is done could really
be improved if

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00:06:10,370 --> 00:06:11,710
you do it this way.

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And you think you've made a
perfectly reasonable point,

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perfectly valid point.

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But somehow your point isn't
taken any notice of.

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Or it's met with resistance
and maybe even hostility.

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Now, why might that be?

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Well, there are many reasons.

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But one of them is you might
have phrased it badly.

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You might have cursed out
somebody's mother while you

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were doing it.

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There are all kinds of things
that you have a lot of control

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over and don't necessarily
have to do.

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But there are some reasons that
are harder to control.

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And that's in the psychology
of the person who's hearing

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what you're saying.

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So one of the obstacles is
this idea of cognitive

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dissonance.

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So let's see how that works.

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So cognitive dissonance was a
concept invented in the 1950's

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by Festinger, Leon Festinger,
psychology at Stanford.

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00:07:01,040 --> 00:07:02,356
And he did the following
experiments.

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The experiments were, he had
people come and do this task

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where they basically just put
round pegs into round holes

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00:07:13,052 --> 00:07:17,386
and-- he's a college student--
put square pegs into square

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holes and triangle pegs
into triangle holes.

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So after they did the experiment
they were then

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split into two groups.

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Group A was just sent away.

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You know, they did the
experiment and they left and

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00:07:41,934 --> 00:07:44,294
nothing more was heard from
them until a year later.

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00:07:44,294 --> 00:07:49,828
Now Group B was told, oh, we
actually need people to help

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00:07:49,828 --> 00:07:52,760
us recruit more volunteers
for this experiment.

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00:07:52,760 --> 00:07:56,044
And obviously they might have
problems recruiting people to

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do the experiment because
it was so dull.

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All you do is put square
pegs into square holes.

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00:08:01,780 --> 00:08:05,250
So they said would you
be willing to be--

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00:08:05,250 --> 00:08:06,640
in the experiment--

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00:08:06,640 --> 00:08:09,935
our assistant in helping
recruit people?

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00:08:09,935 --> 00:08:16,585
So Group A, they
just went away.

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And Group B, they were offered
a position as experimenter's

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00:08:19,862 --> 00:08:25,414
assistant and were paid
$20 for that.

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And Group C-- the same thing.

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They were offered a position as
experiment's assistant but

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00:08:29,820 --> 00:08:32,154
they were only paid $1.

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This was in 1950-ish.

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So roughly speaking in today's
dollars, let me

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just translate those.

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So here's a way of estimating
the equation.

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So in 1950 we still have
the gold standard.

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And the gold standard
was $35 an ounce.

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So the world price of gold was
fixed by Fiat from Bretton

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Woods at $35 an ounce.

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00:08:58,836 --> 00:09:00,800
Now it's maybe $70 an ounce.

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00:09:00,800 --> 00:09:03,255
So inflation is about 25%.

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00:09:03,255 --> 00:09:08,165
So this is about 400 today.

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And this is about $20.

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So then what happened was these
students then did their

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work, nothing, this, or that,
being an assistant.

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And then they were tested a year
later about their opinion

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00:09:26,526 --> 00:09:27,857
of the experiment.

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So that was actually the
real experiment.

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So these students thought--

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like all psychology
experiments--

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they were actually helping
recruit people for an

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experiment.

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When actually, they were
the experiment.

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They were really the subject.

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So a year later they were asked
their opinion of the

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00:09:42,620 --> 00:09:45,944
experiment, did you think
it was interesting?

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So these people, they obviously
thought it was

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boring because it
wasn't worth it.

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So a year later these people
were asked what they thought.

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And these people said boring.

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OK, now, what about
Groups B and C?

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What did they think?

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00:10:14,932 --> 00:10:18,868
So take a minute or two, try
to predict what they were

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00:10:18,868 --> 00:10:22,312
opinions about the experiment
were one year later.

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00:10:22,312 --> 00:10:23,296
Question, yes?

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00:10:23,296 --> 00:10:26,740
AUDIENCE: So did they have
a choice to participate?

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00:10:26,740 --> 00:10:28,708
Were they forced to do this?

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00:10:28,708 --> 00:10:29,692
PROFESSOR: No, I don't think
they were forced.

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00:10:29,692 --> 00:10:33,136
It was the Group B who
agreed, or the Group

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00:10:33,136 --> 00:10:35,104
C people who agreed.

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00:10:35,104 --> 00:10:36,334
I'm pretty sure that's right.

199
00:10:36,334 --> 00:10:37,584
And I'm sure they
weren't forced.

200
00:10:41,500 --> 00:10:45,237
So yeah, find a neighbor or
two and see if you can

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00:10:45,237 --> 00:10:50,651
predict, what did Groups B and
C think after a year or so?

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00:10:56,567 --> 00:11:01,990
OK, so, what do you think
they thought?

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00:11:01,990 --> 00:11:02,483
Yeah?

204
00:11:02,483 --> 00:11:05,934
AUDIENCE: Well, maybe Group C
liked the experiment better

205
00:11:05,934 --> 00:11:09,385
because they were only trying
to recruit, I think they

206
00:11:09,385 --> 00:11:11,357
wanted to but [INAUDIBLE].

207
00:11:11,357 --> 00:11:14,810
PROFESSOR: OK, so Group
C maybe liked it more.

208
00:11:14,810 --> 00:11:16,310
So the question is,
who liked it more?

209
00:11:16,310 --> 00:11:18,310
So maybe Group C
liked it more.

210
00:11:24,810 --> 00:11:29,010
So they weren't getting enough
incentive in cash and they

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00:11:29,010 --> 00:11:30,260
must have liked it.

212
00:11:36,180 --> 00:11:38,696
Any other thoughts, comments?

213
00:11:38,696 --> 00:11:39,138
Yeah?

214
00:11:39,138 --> 00:11:42,019
AUDIENCE: Well, it's possible
they didn't like it

215
00:11:42,019 --> 00:11:44,597
originally, but they convinced
themselves they liked it

216
00:11:44,597 --> 00:11:47,258
because they were doing this
work recruiting for not very

217
00:11:47,258 --> 00:11:48,007
much money.

218
00:11:48,007 --> 00:11:49,257
PROFESSOR: OK.

219
00:12:00,820 --> 00:12:04,920
So they must have convinced
themselves because they were

220
00:12:04,920 --> 00:12:07,630
getting enough cash
to be happy.

221
00:12:07,630 --> 00:12:09,510
AUDIENCE: I actually
have a question.

222
00:12:09,510 --> 00:12:10,450
PROFESSOR: Yeah?

223
00:12:10,450 --> 00:12:12,800
AUDIENCE: So did
[? all of them ?] take over?

224
00:12:12,800 --> 00:12:14,340
Or are we talking only about
those who did it?

225
00:12:14,340 --> 00:12:16,410
PROFESSOR: That I
don't remember.

226
00:12:16,410 --> 00:12:17,854
That's a good question.

227
00:12:17,854 --> 00:12:18,336
I think we're just talking
about the people

228
00:12:18,336 --> 00:12:20,264
who took the offer.

229
00:12:20,264 --> 00:12:23,638
AUDIENCE: OK, so it was
self selection?

230
00:12:23,638 --> 00:12:24,602
PROFESSOR: Yeah, there's
some self selection.

231
00:12:24,602 --> 00:12:27,830
AUDIENCE: But if a group came
from that, you probably should

232
00:12:27,830 --> 00:12:31,016
ask the question immediately
after the experiment before

233
00:12:31,016 --> 00:12:34,165
asking them to help assist and
then you set the control.

234
00:12:34,165 --> 00:12:35,900
[INAUDIBLE].

235
00:12:35,900 --> 00:12:38,367
PROFESSOR: And they might
have done that.

236
00:12:38,367 --> 00:12:40,315
I don't remember all
the details of it.

237
00:12:40,315 --> 00:12:40,802
So they might have done that.

238
00:12:40,802 --> 00:12:42,912
And [? some wonder ?] if the
control was the Group A. But

239
00:12:42,912 --> 00:12:44,698
you're right, that's another
good control.

240
00:12:44,698 --> 00:12:47,133
And they might have done that.

241
00:12:47,133 --> 00:12:49,568
Other comments or questions?

242
00:12:49,568 --> 00:12:50,055
Predictions?

243
00:12:50,055 --> 00:12:50,542
Yeah?

244
00:12:50,542 --> 00:12:55,412
AUDIENCE: Is this a flat rate
or is this a per person?

245
00:12:55,412 --> 00:12:57,642
PROFESSOR: Oh, per person
they recruited?

246
00:12:57,642 --> 00:13:00,840
No, this was their salary.

247
00:13:00,840 --> 00:13:05,080
Yeah, that'd be pretty
lucrative, $20 a pop.

248
00:13:05,080 --> 00:13:05,380
Yeah?

249
00:13:05,380 --> 00:13:07,696
AUDIENCE: I was thinking B
probably wouldn't have liked

250
00:13:07,696 --> 00:13:09,590
it as much as C because they
probably would have thought,

251
00:13:09,590 --> 00:13:12,754
if they have to pay me $400 it's
really, really boring.

252
00:13:12,754 --> 00:13:23,165
PROFESSOR: OK, so B liked it
less on the theory that they

253
00:13:23,165 --> 00:13:24,656
were doing it just
for the money.

254
00:13:24,656 --> 00:13:27,141
They were thinking
to themselves--

255
00:13:27,141 --> 00:13:31,324
AUDIENCE: Or also if the reason
they really have to pay

256
00:13:31,324 --> 00:13:33,602
them this much to get the
subjects it must really suck.

257
00:13:44,536 --> 00:13:45,530
PROFESSOR: Yeah?

258
00:13:45,530 --> 00:13:47,368
AUDIENCE: Well, and you can
look at it another way.

259
00:13:47,368 --> 00:13:49,506
You can say, they're paying
me this much money.

260
00:13:49,506 --> 00:13:52,985
There must be some intrinsic
importance to the work.

261
00:13:52,985 --> 00:13:55,470
So you could convince
yourself--

262
00:13:55,470 --> 00:13:56,464
PROFESSOR: it could
go both ways.

263
00:13:56,464 --> 00:13:57,458
AUDIENCE: Right, exactly.

264
00:13:57,458 --> 00:13:58,452
PROFESSOR: They pay me
a lot so it must be

265
00:13:58,452 --> 00:13:58,949
really important work.

266
00:13:58,949 --> 00:14:00,937
They must have tons of
government funding for people.

267
00:14:00,937 --> 00:14:01,931
AUDIENCE: Yeah.

268
00:14:01,931 --> 00:14:03,422
PROFESSOR: All right.

269
00:14:03,422 --> 00:14:06,404
So it could be [INAUDIBLE].

270
00:14:17,055 --> 00:14:17,670
Oh, comment?

271
00:14:17,670 --> 00:14:20,130
AUDIENCE: Well, I have to say,
I think the process of

272
00:14:20,130 --> 00:14:24,111
recruiting people would get
you to like it more.

273
00:14:24,111 --> 00:14:25,979
Because you'd have
to be selling it.

274
00:14:25,979 --> 00:14:29,620
And then the question is whether
you put more effort

275
00:14:29,620 --> 00:14:32,656
into that if you're getting
paid more money or not.

276
00:14:32,656 --> 00:14:36,289
PROFESSOR: OK, but the common
point is recruiting can help

277
00:14:36,289 --> 00:14:36,584
you like it?

278
00:14:36,584 --> 00:14:37,834
AUDIENCE: Yeah.

279
00:14:50,823 --> 00:14:56,180
PROFESSOR: OK, so I would say
to me, actually, you were

280
00:14:56,180 --> 00:15:01,080
right, actually, what happened
is that these people still

281
00:15:01,080 --> 00:15:02,330
found this boring.

282
00:15:08,200 --> 00:15:11,280
And these people liked it.

283
00:15:11,280 --> 00:15:15,425
And basically, at the time this
was counter intuitive.

284
00:15:15,425 --> 00:15:18,729
And the whole idea of cognitive
dissonance was built

285
00:15:18,729 --> 00:15:20,406
up to explain this
counter-intuitive result,

286
00:15:20,406 --> 00:15:26,322
which is why would you like it
more when you're paid less?

287
00:15:26,322 --> 00:15:28,146
It is sort of counter
intuitive.

288
00:15:28,146 --> 00:15:34,680
And it's exactly like you say,
which is that you reason to

289
00:15:34,680 --> 00:15:39,827
yourself well, if they're giving
me 400, yeah, sure, I'd

290
00:15:39,827 --> 00:15:41,775
sell my grandmother for 400.

291
00:15:41,775 --> 00:15:43,966
You know, that doesn't mean
that I don't like my

292
00:15:43,966 --> 00:15:44,210
grandmother.

293
00:15:44,210 --> 00:15:47,140
But $400 is $400.

294
00:15:47,140 --> 00:15:49,995
But if they only
give you $20--

295
00:15:49,995 --> 00:15:52,330
that's option C--

296
00:15:52,330 --> 00:15:53,752
no, of course you wouldn't
do that.

297
00:15:53,752 --> 00:15:56,698
There must be some reason
that you're doing that.

298
00:15:56,698 --> 00:15:59,807
So if you're participating in
the activity we'll say by

299
00:15:59,807 --> 00:16:02,862
doing but don't like it,
or at least you try to

300
00:16:02,862 --> 00:16:03,572
justify it to yourself.

301
00:16:03,572 --> 00:16:05,136
You need some kind
of justification.

302
00:16:05,136 --> 00:16:09,751
And the justification of Group
B is well, I'm doing it

303
00:16:09,751 --> 00:16:10,733
because it pays a
lot of money.

304
00:16:10,733 --> 00:16:13,351
The justification of Group C
can't be that because there

305
00:16:13,351 --> 00:16:14,170
isn't enough money.

306
00:16:14,170 --> 00:16:16,625
So it must be that it's an

307
00:16:16,625 --> 00:16:18,098
intrinsically worthwhile activity.

308
00:16:18,098 --> 00:16:20,553
So the opinion shifts.

309
00:16:20,553 --> 00:16:23,020
Now if you remember, I mentioned
cognitive dissonance

310
00:16:23,020 --> 00:16:26,580
as one of reasons to have
people vote when you're

311
00:16:26,580 --> 00:16:30,271
originally doing multiple-choice
questions.

312
00:16:30,271 --> 00:16:33,037
Give a muiltiple-choice question
to the students, say

313
00:16:33,037 --> 00:16:37,133
A, B, C, or D. The importance of
having them vote and make a

314
00:16:37,133 --> 00:16:40,570
public stand is that it commits
them to the question

315
00:16:40,570 --> 00:16:41,992
and to the answer.

316
00:16:41,992 --> 00:16:48,210
Now they have some public
appearance in the one of the

317
00:16:48,210 --> 00:16:50,210
A, B, C, D categories.

318
00:16:50,210 --> 00:16:52,210
And they want to know,
is this right?

319
00:16:52,210 --> 00:16:54,710
So the political organizers
know this.

320
00:16:54,710 --> 00:16:57,710
And these kind of ideas
are old hat now.

321
00:16:57,710 --> 00:17:00,710
We've seen things that
consciousness and psychology

322
00:17:00,710 --> 00:17:01,710
in marketing.

323
00:17:01,710 --> 00:17:04,543
So people will sometimes-- for
example-- come around and ask

324
00:17:04,543 --> 00:17:07,410
you well, would you mind putting
a sign in your front

325
00:17:07,410 --> 00:17:09,384
yard for this political
campaign?

326
00:17:09,384 --> 00:17:12,312
Well, at first they'll say,
would you like to give $100 to

327
00:17:12,312 --> 00:17:13,776
the campaign?

328
00:17:13,776 --> 00:17:15,728
And you say, no.

329
00:17:15,728 --> 00:17:17,913
I don't really know
who XYZ is.

330
00:17:17,913 --> 00:17:19,920
I sort of maybe support
him $100.

331
00:17:19,920 --> 00:17:20,420
[INAUDIBLE].

332
00:17:20,420 --> 00:17:21,420
So you say no.

333
00:17:21,420 --> 00:17:23,300
They say, OK, well, would you
mind putting a sign in your

334
00:17:23,300 --> 00:17:24,890
front yard?

335
00:17:24,890 --> 00:17:26,250
So now, what have you done?

336
00:17:26,250 --> 00:17:27,065
Made a public commitment.

337
00:17:27,065 --> 00:17:30,057
All right, everybody who drives
by or walks by sees

338
00:17:30,057 --> 00:17:31,482
that sign for the candidate.

339
00:17:31,482 --> 00:17:35,990
So now studies are completely
consistent with this--

340
00:17:35,990 --> 00:17:40,730
you now do it-- you now support
that candidate more.

341
00:17:40,730 --> 00:17:45,120
So turns out, what's the key
thing in changing your view?

342
00:17:45,120 --> 00:17:49,990
Is that you feel you
had a choice.

343
00:17:49,990 --> 00:17:54,962
So here, if you put a gun to
someone's head and say, put a

344
00:17:54,962 --> 00:17:55,819
sign in your front yard.

345
00:17:55,819 --> 00:17:57,190
And they put a sign in their
front yard, that doesn't

346
00:17:57,190 --> 00:17:59,870
change their view of
the candidate.

347
00:17:59,870 --> 00:18:01,850
The person could
refuse or not.

348
00:18:01,850 --> 00:18:03,335
It was up to them.

349
00:18:03,335 --> 00:18:05,810
If they chose to do it, well,
that opens a door to further

350
00:18:05,810 --> 00:18:06,305
commitment.

351
00:18:06,305 --> 00:18:10,265
So here, this is sort of like
putting a gun to their head.

352
00:18:10,265 --> 00:18:12,740
This is sort of like putting
a gun to their head.

353
00:18:12,740 --> 00:18:13,730
You don't really feel like
you have a choice.

354
00:18:13,730 --> 00:18:15,710
You're like, OK, whether it was
boring or not, who cares?

355
00:18:15,710 --> 00:18:17,690
Whereas here, you
took the choice.

356
00:18:17,690 --> 00:18:20,660
And the ones that did it
changed their view.

357
00:18:20,660 --> 00:18:24,170
So cognitive dissonance is
very, very powerful.

358
00:18:24,170 --> 00:18:26,750
Now, how does that relate to
peoples' response when you

359
00:18:26,750 --> 00:18:30,325
say, you'd like to change
the course?

360
00:18:30,325 --> 00:18:31,582
OK, and we'll come to that.

361
00:18:31,582 --> 00:18:32,058
Yes, question?

362
00:18:32,058 --> 00:18:36,818
AUDIENCE: Yeah, so again,
Group A then was

363
00:18:36,818 --> 00:18:37,770
never offered a choice?

364
00:18:37,770 --> 00:18:39,846
PROFESSOR: Yeah, they
were sent away.

365
00:18:39,846 --> 00:18:43,210
And they were asked a year
later to see what

366
00:18:43,210 --> 00:18:44,040
they thought of it.

367
00:18:44,040 --> 00:18:45,225
And they said, yeah,
it was boring.

368
00:18:45,225 --> 00:18:46,526
They're sort of control.

369
00:18:46,526 --> 00:18:48,310
I mean, you expect them
to say, it's boring.

370
00:18:48,310 --> 00:18:51,546
AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE]

371
00:18:51,546 --> 00:18:52,000
boring?

372
00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:55,510
PROFESSOR: Yeah, just to check
so no one could say, well,

373
00:18:55,510 --> 00:18:58,081
maybe people found it
really fascinating.

374
00:18:58,081 --> 00:18:59,780
You know, because they didn't.

375
00:18:59,780 --> 00:19:04,480
So now what happens when you say
to someone, oh, we really

376
00:19:04,480 --> 00:19:05,860
should change the way
this course is done.

377
00:19:05,860 --> 00:19:10,500
So now suppose you're at some
weak university like MIT or

378
00:19:10,500 --> 00:19:11,880
Cambridge or something
like that.

379
00:19:11,880 --> 00:19:13,690
Now, where do a lot of the
people who teach at these

380
00:19:13,690 --> 00:19:16,380
universities come from?

381
00:19:16,380 --> 00:19:18,160
Either that same university--

382
00:19:18,160 --> 00:19:21,760
especially in England, that was
really notorious in the

383
00:19:21,760 --> 00:19:24,840
united justification [? for
it ?], which was that our

384
00:19:24,840 --> 00:19:27,412
system's so wacky and different,
only people who've

385
00:19:27,412 --> 00:19:29,290
been through that particular
system can

386
00:19:29,290 --> 00:19:30,980
possibly teach here.

387
00:19:30,980 --> 00:19:33,533
So how are the justifications?

388
00:19:33,533 --> 00:19:38,726
Either the people come from that
same place or come from a

389
00:19:38,726 --> 00:19:41,550
similar background, similar
university background.

390
00:19:41,550 --> 00:19:45,670
So now you're not criticizing
a system that

391
00:19:45,670 --> 00:19:49,964
they A, selected them.

392
00:19:49,964 --> 00:19:50,372
Right?

393
00:19:50,372 --> 00:19:53,680
The system selected them from
a whole bunch of people.

394
00:19:53,680 --> 00:19:58,130
And so by definition, it
must be a good system.

395
00:19:58,130 --> 00:20:01,130
Also, they've now had many
opportunities to make public

396
00:20:01,130 --> 00:20:03,498
commitments to the system of the
way things are taught, the

397
00:20:03,498 --> 00:20:05,050
way things are done.

398
00:20:05,050 --> 00:20:07,255
They've taught them in classes,
they've participated

399
00:20:07,255 --> 00:20:08,480
in curriculum discussions.

400
00:20:08,480 --> 00:20:10,930
They've selected the students
that come, recommended the

401
00:20:10,930 --> 00:20:12,418
students that would
be better or worse

402
00:20:12,418 --> 00:20:13,410
according to that system.

403
00:20:13,410 --> 00:20:17,874
So the result is that because
of years of cognitive

404
00:20:17,874 --> 00:20:20,354
dissonance working on people,
they are now very, very

405
00:20:20,354 --> 00:20:24,390
convinced that the way things
are done right now is great.

406
00:20:24,390 --> 00:20:29,520
And although it's called
cognitive dissonance, it's not

407
00:20:29,520 --> 00:20:31,020
necessarily a cognitive
belief.

408
00:20:31,020 --> 00:20:35,020
If you ask them, can you explain
why it's great they

409
00:20:35,020 --> 00:20:37,110
wouldn't necessarily give
you great reasons.

410
00:20:37,110 --> 00:20:40,023
And this can be very misleading
and can lead you

411
00:20:40,023 --> 00:20:40,830
into hot water.

412
00:20:40,830 --> 00:20:43,888
So for example, when you say,
well, really we should teach

413
00:20:43,888 --> 00:20:46,286
this course differently and put
in interactive questions

414
00:20:46,286 --> 00:20:47,774
so students learn them.

415
00:20:47,774 --> 00:20:52,025
You'll get responses that
are almost nonsense.

416
00:20:52,025 --> 00:20:56,982
They'll be things like, for
example, well, if we don't put

417
00:20:56,982 --> 00:20:59,860
everything on the chalkboard how
will students know what's

418
00:20:59,860 --> 00:21:02,555
going to be on the exam?

419
00:21:02,555 --> 00:21:06,267
And yeah, it's a valid
English sentence.

420
00:21:06,267 --> 00:21:08,990
But it's not a good argument
because there are other ways

421
00:21:08,990 --> 00:21:09,485
to communicate with students.

422
00:21:09,485 --> 00:21:09,980
You can put stuff on notes.

423
00:21:09,980 --> 00:21:11,455
You can say, read the book.

424
00:21:11,455 --> 00:21:13,750
There's tons of answers
to that problem.

425
00:21:13,750 --> 00:21:17,890
But these kind of things can be
offered as just a complete

426
00:21:17,890 --> 00:21:18,540
trump card.

427
00:21:18,540 --> 00:21:21,873
OK, these trumps have been
played, because no one can do

428
00:21:21,873 --> 00:21:23,816
anything interactive.

429
00:21:23,816 --> 00:21:27,230
Now, that level of thought
that's behind it, no way

430
00:21:27,230 --> 00:21:30,220
people would put that level of
thought into their research

431
00:21:30,220 --> 00:21:31,880
and be successful
with research.

432
00:21:31,880 --> 00:21:35,183
And how come that's OK
and can be sort of

433
00:21:35,183 --> 00:21:35,490
convincing in this area?

434
00:21:35,490 --> 00:21:38,290
Well, because it's really
not a cognitive

435
00:21:38,290 --> 00:21:39,470
response to be made.

436
00:21:39,470 --> 00:21:42,730
It's a belief response.

437
00:21:42,730 --> 00:21:47,736
You threaten and challenge a
person's core beliefs and

438
00:21:47,736 --> 00:21:49,515
they're going to come out
and react very strongly.

439
00:21:49,515 --> 00:21:52,400
And if you try to argue it just
on the rational level

440
00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:55,445
you'll, actually, pick
up angry people.

441
00:21:55,445 --> 00:21:57,832
And you won't anger yourself
because you wonder why you

442
00:21:57,832 --> 00:21:59,850
hate the progress.

443
00:21:59,850 --> 00:22:04,018
So one way to think about those
kinds of conversations

444
00:22:04,018 --> 00:22:09,982
is A, if they're difficult
conversations--

445
00:22:13,461 --> 00:22:16,691
and actually, the reason I write
that there is there's an

446
00:22:16,691 --> 00:22:19,425
excellent book called Difficult
Conversations.

447
00:22:19,425 --> 00:22:20,419
written by--

448
00:22:20,419 --> 00:22:22,407
I'm pretty sure-- it's from the

449
00:22:22,407 --> 00:22:23,440
Harvard Negotiation Project.

450
00:22:23,440 --> 00:22:26,020
And they said, look, every
interaction-- and I

451
00:22:26,020 --> 00:22:27,858
think this is right--

452
00:22:27,858 --> 00:22:29,340
has three levels.

453
00:22:29,340 --> 00:22:38,232
So that would be the factual
level, which is just the ideas

454
00:22:38,232 --> 00:22:40,702
being exchanged, of should we
teach interactively or not?

455
00:22:40,702 --> 00:22:42,184
Is there enough time?

456
00:22:42,184 --> 00:22:51,404
There's the emotional level,
which is how we feel about

457
00:22:51,404 --> 00:22:52,930
these facts.

458
00:22:52,930 --> 00:22:54,720
And then there's the meaning.

459
00:22:57,310 --> 00:23:00,270
So what does this discussion
mean for people?

460
00:23:00,270 --> 00:23:04,640
So as an example, [INAUDIBLE],
the problem with a student

461
00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:05,360
who's worried about
their grade.

462
00:23:05,360 --> 00:23:08,150
Well, you can tell them,
factually, look--

463
00:23:08,150 --> 00:23:13,388
about 3% on that problem set is
going to be 0.03% of your

464
00:23:13,388 --> 00:23:15,270
grade's total points, don't
even worry about it.

465
00:23:15,270 --> 00:23:17,620
All right, so that's
the factual level.

466
00:23:17,620 --> 00:23:22,035
You may often find that just the
factual discussion is just

467
00:23:22,035 --> 00:23:23,270
the tip of the iceberg
because there's all

468
00:23:23,270 --> 00:23:24,230
this stuff going on.

469
00:23:24,230 --> 00:23:26,150
So what could some
of this stuff be?

470
00:23:26,150 --> 00:23:29,373
Well, the emotional level is
they just feel really anxious

471
00:23:29,373 --> 00:23:31,345
about grades.

472
00:23:31,345 --> 00:23:33,810
Now, why might that be?

473
00:23:33,810 --> 00:23:35,720
Well, that's where the
meaning comes in.

474
00:23:35,720 --> 00:23:39,628
The meaning may be that they
feel that the grade measures

475
00:23:39,628 --> 00:23:41,062
how good they are.

476
00:23:41,062 --> 00:23:44,134
And they've always thought they
got into MIT by mistake.

477
00:23:44,134 --> 00:23:46,110
And now people are going
to find them out.

478
00:23:46,110 --> 00:23:49,568
If they ever get a bad grade
their cover will be blown.

479
00:23:49,568 --> 00:23:52,038
And everyone will know that
they don't belong.

480
00:23:52,038 --> 00:23:54,014
So it may have a really strong
meaning for them, which is

481
00:23:54,014 --> 00:23:55,002
rather emotional.

482
00:23:55,002 --> 00:23:57,966
Which means the fact [INAUDIBLE]
discussion

483
00:23:57,966 --> 00:23:58,460
[INAUDIBLE].

484
00:23:58,460 --> 00:24:02,906
So it's a similar thing with
the discussion of change in

485
00:24:02,906 --> 00:24:07,846
education, is that people will
have a factual discussion that

486
00:24:07,846 --> 00:24:09,822
seems pointless and it's just
frustrating to you.

487
00:24:09,822 --> 00:24:14,164
Because actually there's
emotional investment in the

488
00:24:14,164 --> 00:24:15,060
way things are done.

489
00:24:15,060 --> 00:24:18,400
And meaning, it means
a lot to people.

490
00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:19,838
This system, it chose them.

491
00:24:19,838 --> 00:24:22,328
It's a system they're
committed to.

492
00:24:22,328 --> 00:24:23,822
And it's being criticized
by you.

493
00:24:23,822 --> 00:24:27,806
Therefore, you're going to get
a whole bunch of unrealized

494
00:24:27,806 --> 00:24:29,300
anger [INAUDIBLE].

495
00:24:29,300 --> 00:24:29,798
Question?

496
00:24:29,798 --> 00:24:32,288
AUDIENCE: So when it comes to
changing a single class and

497
00:24:32,288 --> 00:24:35,774
adding some interactivity,
what are the downfalls

498
00:24:35,774 --> 00:24:39,260
avoiding the difficult
conversations by asking for

499
00:24:39,260 --> 00:24:40,754
forgiveness rather
than permission?

500
00:24:40,754 --> 00:24:41,750
PROFESSOR: Nate, that's
a good question.

501
00:24:41,750 --> 00:24:45,976
So asking for forgiveness rather
than permission, one of

502
00:24:45,976 --> 00:24:47,630
the downsides is--

503
00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:57,480
I think, in small and moderate
doses that is a good idea.

504
00:24:57,480 --> 00:25:00,352
Because first of all, no
one's going to notice.

505
00:25:00,352 --> 00:25:03,256
Because they're too busy with
their own [INAUDIBLE] teaching

506
00:25:03,256 --> 00:25:06,160
that that's rather busybody
over what you're doing.

507
00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:08,570
So you have, definitely,
something right away that you

508
00:25:08,570 --> 00:25:09,853
might as well use.

509
00:25:09,853 --> 00:25:13,526
But if you want to make any
larger changes, like for

510
00:25:13,526 --> 00:25:17,715
example, take out something
that you think isn't so

511
00:25:17,715 --> 00:25:20,300
important in the curriculums--
and make room for doing this--

512
00:25:20,300 --> 00:25:22,660
and somebody downstream
really wants that.

513
00:25:22,660 --> 00:25:25,420
Well, it's important to have
done it beforehand, discuss it

514
00:25:25,420 --> 00:25:26,010
beforehand.

515
00:25:26,010 --> 00:25:31,445
Because otherwise, if there's
emotional and meaning

516
00:25:31,445 --> 00:25:35,260
investment in the way things are
done, they won't be able

517
00:25:35,260 --> 00:25:36,651
to listen and then
you surprise them

518
00:25:36,651 --> 00:25:40,230
with a factual change.

519
00:25:40,230 --> 00:25:41,721
They won't be able to listen
to your factual arguments

520
00:25:41,721 --> 00:25:43,212
then, because you activated the

521
00:25:43,212 --> 00:25:45,700
emotional and meaning responses.

522
00:25:45,700 --> 00:25:48,800
So you want to try to arrange,
[INAUDIBLE] those things

523
00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:52,210
beforehand and get all those
out in the open first.

524
00:25:52,210 --> 00:25:55,220
So I would say, for smaller
changes, yeah.

525
00:25:55,220 --> 00:25:57,560
For larger changes, it's
important to have people

526
00:25:57,560 --> 00:26:03,370
jointly figure out what to
do, which is true of

527
00:26:03,370 --> 00:26:05,230
any political change.

528
00:26:05,230 --> 00:26:10,116
And that's why when I
deliberately chose the title

529
00:26:10,116 --> 00:26:12,521
Political Barriers to
Educational Change.

530
00:26:12,521 --> 00:26:15,888
Because political barriers has
the implication that it's a

531
00:26:15,888 --> 00:26:16,529
political problem.

532
00:26:16,529 --> 00:26:17,042
It's a social problem.

533
00:26:17,042 --> 00:26:17,812
It's a collective problem.

534
00:26:17,812 --> 00:26:22,744
And any collective problems has
these issues of what you

535
00:26:22,744 --> 00:26:28,600
do by yourself versus what we do
in a group or [INAUDIBLE].

536
00:26:28,600 --> 00:26:29,576
Question, yeah?

537
00:26:29,576 --> 00:26:33,480
AUDIENCE: So I'm just a little
bit confused about the idea of

538
00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:34,456
cognitive dissonance.

539
00:26:34,456 --> 00:26:38,067
So is that where the [INAUDIBLE]
between the

540
00:26:38,067 --> 00:26:39,824
responses of groups B and C?

541
00:26:39,824 --> 00:26:40,800
PROFESSOR: Mm-hmm.

542
00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:42,290
Yes, it's that.

543
00:26:42,290 --> 00:26:44,333
Oh, so where does the dissonance
come into it?

544
00:26:44,333 --> 00:26:44,908
I should've explained that.

545
00:26:44,908 --> 00:26:48,250
The dissonance is what
you try to reduce by

546
00:26:48,250 --> 00:26:49,809
changing your view.

547
00:26:49,809 --> 00:26:54,060
So in Group B there's really
no dissonance because the

548
00:26:54,060 --> 00:26:55,550
experiment's boring.

549
00:26:55,550 --> 00:26:58,678
And they did the recruiting
because they were paid.

550
00:26:58,678 --> 00:26:59,670
There's no dissonance.

551
00:26:59,670 --> 00:27:02,710
Here, the experiment is boring,
but they don't have

552
00:27:02,710 --> 00:27:06,484
the resolution that oh, I'm
being paid to do it.

553
00:27:06,484 --> 00:27:09,490
So they have to have some way
of reducing that dissonance.

554
00:27:09,490 --> 00:27:11,823
And they're going out and
recruiting people.

555
00:27:11,823 --> 00:27:15,591
So the way they do it is they
reduce the dissonance between

556
00:27:15,591 --> 00:27:18,480
the internal view and external
performance by changing their

557
00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:19,610
internal view.

558
00:27:19,610 --> 00:27:20,470
Thanks.

559
00:27:20,470 --> 00:27:23,395
AUDIENCE: Yeah.

560
00:27:23,395 --> 00:27:26,389
AUDIENCE: So I'm wondering
whether--

561
00:27:26,389 --> 00:27:29,383
do you know how people talk
about how sometimes if you're

562
00:27:29,383 --> 00:27:31,628
trying to convince people to
do something you try to get

563
00:27:31,628 --> 00:27:33,874
them to feel like it
was their idea?

564
00:27:33,874 --> 00:27:38,614
And it seems like that would
be the opposite approach to

565
00:27:38,614 --> 00:27:40,984
what you were just saying, which
was that you try to get

566
00:27:40,984 --> 00:27:43,355
people on board in advance maybe
even so subtly that they

567
00:27:43,355 --> 00:27:44,852
don't even realize it.

568
00:27:44,852 --> 00:27:47,846
Because I think if you make
people feel like they're being

569
00:27:47,846 --> 00:27:49,592
threatened and furthermore that
like you're deceiving

570
00:27:49,592 --> 00:27:53,335
them, but they'll claim to be
always kind of on purpose

571
00:27:53,335 --> 00:27:56,632
because you felt like you were
backed into a corner.

572
00:27:56,632 --> 00:27:59,052
And even if they're not
committed to it, because it

573
00:27:59,052 --> 00:28:02,440
produces them as [INAUDIBLE],
or just because people don't

574
00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:04,255
like to be fooled, that they
don't like to feel like

575
00:28:04,255 --> 00:28:05,350
they're taken advantage of.

576
00:28:05,350 --> 00:28:05,590
PROFESSOR: Right.

577
00:28:05,590 --> 00:28:07,009
So that's why I would
say, yeah.

578
00:28:07,009 --> 00:28:09,390
Take advantage of the freedom
that you have that everyone

579
00:28:09,390 --> 00:28:10,070
sort of [INAUDIBLE]

580
00:28:10,070 --> 00:28:12,044
to make smaller changes
just on your own.

581
00:28:12,044 --> 00:28:15,502
AUDIENCE: Do you have ideas
for how you might go about

582
00:28:15,502 --> 00:28:17,972
[INAUDIBLE], if you see people
with [INAUDIBLE]?

583
00:28:17,972 --> 00:28:18,470
PROFESSOR: Yeah.

584
00:28:18,470 --> 00:28:20,265
And not so much convincing
things that

585
00:28:20,265 --> 00:28:22,740
it's their idea it's--

586
00:28:22,740 --> 00:28:25,430
yeah, I don't want to phrase it
as people think this as a

587
00:28:25,430 --> 00:28:26,270
dishonest [INAUDIBLE].

588
00:28:26,270 --> 00:28:27,252
AUDIENCE: Yeah, yeah.

589
00:28:27,252 --> 00:28:29,216
PROFESSOR: It's really you're
trying to find collective

590
00:28:29,216 --> 00:28:33,803
solutions to problems that you
both think are happening, or

591
00:28:33,803 --> 00:28:34,620
you all think are happening.

592
00:28:34,620 --> 00:28:36,920
So one way to go about that
is to say, well, look.

593
00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:38,430
Here is a problem I see.

594
00:28:38,430 --> 00:28:41,340
What do you think you
could do about it?

595
00:28:41,340 --> 00:28:43,720
They might agree with
you on the problem.

596
00:28:43,720 --> 00:28:47,350
By creating one problem, pretty
much generally people

597
00:28:47,350 --> 00:28:50,010
will say, yeah, the students
are fine with problem set.

598
00:28:50,010 --> 00:28:52,590
But when they have to go
do something with it,

599
00:28:52,590 --> 00:28:53,630
they can't do it.

600
00:28:53,630 --> 00:28:56,168
So you'll get a much wider
grievant on that statement

601
00:28:56,168 --> 00:28:57,887
than on what to do about it.

602
00:28:57,887 --> 00:28:59,360
But you can start there.

603
00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:03,140
Say, OK, well, what do you think
we should do about it?

604
00:29:03,140 --> 00:29:04,140
They may have some ideas.

605
00:29:04,140 --> 00:29:06,020
They may accept the idea
that, well, this

606
00:29:06,020 --> 00:29:07,110
is a serious problem.

607
00:29:07,110 --> 00:29:08,560
And it's not clear what
to do about it.

608
00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:12,440
But that right away gives you
some license to try to

609
00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:12,830
[? external?]

610
00:29:12,830 --> 00:29:13,610
[INAUDIBLE].

611
00:29:13,610 --> 00:29:15,380
So you say, OK, well,
here's one thing

612
00:29:15,380 --> 00:29:16,808
I'm thinking of trying.

613
00:29:16,808 --> 00:29:18,712
Let's see how it works.

614
00:29:18,712 --> 00:29:22,213
So you're not saying, it must be
done this way, and this is

615
00:29:22,213 --> 00:29:24,500
the only way to do it, and
you're bad to not do it.

616
00:29:24,500 --> 00:29:25,970
Say, well I'm going
to try this.

617
00:29:25,970 --> 00:29:26,950
Let's see how it works.

618
00:29:26,950 --> 00:29:28,910
And I'm happy to share
the results with you.

619
00:29:28,910 --> 00:29:30,870
And you can use that, too.

620
00:29:30,870 --> 00:29:37,730
And so there's another related
point to that, which is the--

621
00:29:37,730 --> 00:29:39,820
I don't know what percentage
to give it.

622
00:29:39,820 --> 00:29:43,100
So let's call it
a 10%, 10%, 8%.

623
00:29:43,100 --> 00:29:46,397
So 10%, 10%, 8% equals this.

624
00:29:55,020 --> 00:29:59,720
So 10% of people will
be early adopters.

625
00:29:59,720 --> 00:30:02,574
They're really curious
about new things.

626
00:30:02,574 --> 00:30:04,510
They want to try new things.

627
00:30:04,510 --> 00:30:05,760
Let's call them [INAUDIBLE].

628
00:30:14,030 --> 00:30:19,700
There will be, say, 10% who no
matter what you do are just

629
00:30:19,700 --> 00:30:21,310
going to say, this
is terrible.

630
00:30:21,310 --> 00:30:22,560
So, the never adopters.

631
00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:31,005
And the 8% who are in the middle
who will wait to see

632
00:30:31,005 --> 00:30:33,830
and will sort of sit
on the fence but

633
00:30:33,830 --> 00:30:42,005
[INAUDIBLE], but open.

634
00:30:42,005 --> 00:30:43,694
They have other priorities,
but they're open to

635
00:30:43,694 --> 00:30:46,380
these kind of things.

636
00:30:46,380 --> 00:30:51,290
So my rough rule of thumb is,
when you're talking to

637
00:30:51,290 --> 00:30:54,724
someone, could be figure out
which category they're in.

638
00:30:54,724 --> 00:30:58,963
If they're in- this is true of
political discussions, right?

639
00:30:58,963 --> 00:31:01,540
You probably have some relatives
in the family where

640
00:31:01,540 --> 00:31:04,566
you just agree we're not going
to talk about politics.

641
00:31:04,566 --> 00:31:05,554
Right?

642
00:31:05,554 --> 00:31:07,036
So, I have them.

643
00:31:07,036 --> 00:31:10,000
I'm sure I'm in some people's
category of that , too.

644
00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:12,470
We just say, we're just not
going to talk about that.

645
00:31:12,470 --> 00:31:16,422
Because one or the two of us is
not going to adopt the view

646
00:31:16,422 --> 00:31:18,710
of the other no matter what is
said because you just think

647
00:31:18,710 --> 00:31:19,960
it's absurd.

648
00:31:22,220 --> 00:31:25,900
So if someone's in that
category, don't

649
00:31:25,900 --> 00:31:27,040
even spend any time.

650
00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:28,510
Just spend your time
[INAUDIBLE]

651
00:31:28,510 --> 00:31:32,100
category and say, OK, I'm
going to move on.

652
00:31:32,100 --> 00:31:35,850
If they're in this category,
you usually can figure that

653
00:31:35,850 --> 00:31:37,200
out pretty quickly, too.

654
00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:39,049
Work with them.

655
00:31:39,049 --> 00:31:42,253
And if they're in this category,
that's the people

656
00:31:42,253 --> 00:31:46,937
you can reach if you do
things in a good way.

657
00:31:46,937 --> 00:31:49,402
OK, now this is actually
pretty large.

658
00:31:49,402 --> 00:31:52,853
I think in the '70s this was
called the silent majority,

659
00:31:52,853 --> 00:31:55,318
was the code for this
[? this word. ?]

660
00:31:55,318 --> 00:31:55,811
Yeah.

661
00:31:55,811 --> 00:31:57,820
AUDIENCE: Are you ready
to be done with this?

662
00:31:57,820 --> 00:31:58,500
PROFESSOR: Yeah.

663
00:31:58,500 --> 00:32:00,640
AUDIENCE: Could you talk a
little bit-- maybe a little

664
00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:04,280
later-- about what sort
of scale changes

665
00:32:04,280 --> 00:32:05,850
you're talking about?

666
00:32:05,850 --> 00:32:09,220
And also along with that, how
much power each individual

667
00:32:09,220 --> 00:32:11,620
professor has to design
their own course.

668
00:32:11,620 --> 00:32:14,350
If you figure out what the
prerequisites are for the next

669
00:32:14,350 --> 00:32:18,510
course, then I don't see exactly
what the problem is

670
00:32:18,510 --> 00:32:21,221
doing whatever you want in your
course as long as you

671
00:32:21,221 --> 00:32:24,919
meet those-- as long
as you teach them.

672
00:32:24,919 --> 00:32:28,850
PROFESSOR: So the question is
what size scale change am I

673
00:32:28,850 --> 00:32:29,920
talking about?

674
00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:33,680
Well, it depends.

675
00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:34,940
How much freedom you
have depends on the

676
00:32:34,940 --> 00:32:36,440
change you want to do.

677
00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:41,155
For example, suppose you took to
heart some of the readings

678
00:32:41,155 --> 00:32:43,450
that were for today and you
thought that grading was

679
00:32:43,450 --> 00:32:47,825
really terrible and you want to
just dispense with grading

680
00:32:47,825 --> 00:32:49,380
completely.

681
00:32:49,380 --> 00:32:53,285
Well, even if you're teaching
all the right stuff, that will

682
00:32:53,285 --> 00:32:54,680
raise a lot of of ire.

683
00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:57,420
And people will come after you
for that even if you're

684
00:32:57,420 --> 00:32:59,490
teaching everything right and
you're doing all the prereq.

685
00:32:59,490 --> 00:33:04,500
Because it will trigger all
kinds of factual, emotional,

686
00:33:04,500 --> 00:33:06,040
meaning responses
in other people.

687
00:33:06,040 --> 00:33:09,400
And it'll go against many,
many-- and that's what I'm

688
00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:10,840
going to talk about next is--

689
00:33:10,840 --> 00:33:14,045
features of American society
to think we must

690
00:33:14,045 --> 00:33:15,266
do things that way.

691
00:33:15,266 --> 00:33:18,050
So you have less freedom to do
something like that, even if

692
00:33:18,050 --> 00:33:20,740
you're meeting all
the prereqs.

693
00:33:20,740 --> 00:33:23,157
Now, if you want to, for
example, use different

694
00:33:23,157 --> 00:33:25,258
examples to teach the
same ideas, Everyone

695
00:33:25,258 --> 00:33:26,900
wants complete freedom.

696
00:33:26,900 --> 00:33:29,113
So it really depends what
you want to do.

697
00:33:29,113 --> 00:33:32,740
Then there's many scales where
you can make change.

698
00:33:32,740 --> 00:33:35,750
So you may find that there isn't
any way to do what I

699
00:33:35,750 --> 00:33:39,164
want to do and meet all the
prereqs for the next course,

700
00:33:39,164 --> 00:33:41,888
because it just means doing
way too much stuff.

701
00:33:41,888 --> 00:33:44,111
OK, well now you have
a problem of a

702
00:33:44,111 --> 00:33:45,350
bigger scale change.

703
00:33:45,350 --> 00:33:49,690
How do you get the whole group
of faculty or group of people

704
00:33:49,690 --> 00:33:52,270
in charge of that area or course
to change what was

705
00:33:52,270 --> 00:33:55,985
going on and changes the
prerequisites, change the

706
00:33:55,985 --> 00:33:56,960
overall curriculum.

707
00:33:56,960 --> 00:33:58,618
So now, you're definitely going
to be working with lots

708
00:33:58,618 --> 00:34:00,225
of other people.

709
00:34:00,225 --> 00:34:04,202
There's another sort of
dichotomy, which is is the

710
00:34:04,202 --> 00:34:06,110
course required or not?

711
00:34:06,110 --> 00:34:10,090
If the course isn't required,
you have much more freedom.

712
00:34:10,090 --> 00:34:10,770
[INAUDIBLE]

713
00:34:10,770 --> 00:34:12,219
so your course.

714
00:34:12,219 --> 00:34:14,570
If people don't like it, they
don't have to take it.

715
00:34:14,570 --> 00:34:17,184
And even if other people don't
like your course or don't

716
00:34:17,184 --> 00:34:19,420
think it's that important,
they're perfectly happy,

717
00:34:19,420 --> 00:34:21,349
generally, to let you teach
the course that they don't

718
00:34:21,349 --> 00:34:22,239
think is that important.

719
00:34:22,239 --> 00:34:24,512
Because they want to teach their
course, which you may

720
00:34:24,512 --> 00:34:26,836
think is not that important.

721
00:34:26,836 --> 00:34:29,492
But now the required courses
that every single undergrad

722
00:34:29,492 --> 00:34:32,650
that majors in the fields take,
those generally are

723
00:34:32,650 --> 00:34:34,812
guarded more with jealousy.

724
00:34:34,812 --> 00:34:38,040
And so changes in those are
harder and generally require

725
00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:43,270
more consent from other people
just because it's considered a

726
00:34:43,270 --> 00:34:46,858
shared core of the field.

727
00:34:46,858 --> 00:34:48,232
So that's the meaning.

728
00:34:48,232 --> 00:34:51,048
And by changing that, you're
complicitly perhaps

729
00:34:51,048 --> 00:34:53,478
threatening to share
core of the field.

730
00:34:53,478 --> 00:34:56,394
Does that answer
your question?

731
00:35:00,768 --> 00:35:05,000
OK, so what I'm going to talk
about after the break--

732
00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:07,840
so this was the idea
of cognitive

733
00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:11,360
dissonance, and what role--

734
00:35:11,360 --> 00:35:15,500
and maybe just a few, your
local group, maybe your

735
00:35:15,500 --> 00:35:18,880
department, maybe
your school--

736
00:35:18,880 --> 00:35:21,155
difficulties and obstacles and
issues that come up when

737
00:35:21,155 --> 00:35:23,460
you're trying to make some kind
of educational change.

738
00:35:23,460 --> 00:35:25,690
What I'm going to talk about
after the break is

739
00:35:25,690 --> 00:35:28,170
society-wide features.

740
00:35:28,170 --> 00:35:28,915
All right.

741
00:35:28,915 --> 00:35:32,594
So American society or say,
European-American society in

742
00:35:32,594 --> 00:35:36,995
general, that impose really
large obstacles

743
00:35:36,995 --> 00:35:38,250
in educational change.

744
00:35:38,250 --> 00:35:40,186
In some ways, even bigger
than this one.

745
00:35:40,186 --> 00:35:42,320
And you definitely want to take
your time with this one.

746
00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:44,130
But it's also important to
take your time with even

747
00:35:44,130 --> 00:35:45,320
larger scale ones.

748
00:35:45,320 --> 00:35:51,310
And those will be Behaviorism,
Taylorism, and the history and

749
00:35:51,310 --> 00:35:52,475
the purpose of those schools.

750
00:35:52,475 --> 00:35:54,471
And we'll talk about those
after the break.

751
00:35:54,471 --> 00:35:56,467
It's 9:58 right now.

752
00:35:56,467 --> 00:35:59,461
So we'll start at 10:08
according to that clock.

753
00:36:06,946 --> 00:36:10,850
The first barrier, cognitive
dissonancy is a--

754
00:36:10,850 --> 00:36:13,150
to a personal psychology.

755
00:36:13,150 --> 00:36:18,007
But now we're going to look
at factors that span the

756
00:36:18,007 --> 00:36:18,220
individual.

757
00:36:18,220 --> 00:36:20,986
I mean, this spans the
individual in the sense that

758
00:36:20,986 --> 00:36:24,816
it's the common feature of our
psychology, maybe of this

759
00:36:24,816 --> 00:36:26,244
[INAUDIBLE] psychology.

760
00:36:26,244 --> 00:36:30,528
But let's see it in
individual people.

761
00:36:30,528 --> 00:36:34,260
But they're are also features
that are common across--

762
00:36:34,260 --> 00:36:37,874
you could call them social
psychology or social

763
00:36:37,874 --> 00:36:40,160
tendencies.

764
00:36:40,160 --> 00:36:42,435
The first one is Behaviorism.

765
00:36:45,855 --> 00:36:51,555
Behaviorism is also a school
of psychology, which,

766
00:36:51,555 --> 00:36:54,135
basically in America, grew
out of Pavlov's work on

767
00:36:54,135 --> 00:36:59,550
conditioning dogs and working on
teaching patience by reward

768
00:36:59,550 --> 00:37:01,774
and punishment.

769
00:37:01,774 --> 00:37:08,440
And in psychology, what it was
is it was a focus on outputs.

770
00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:12,810
So it basically denied the
importance of studying what's

771
00:37:12,810 --> 00:37:17,510
going on inside the
human mind.

772
00:37:17,510 --> 00:37:22,250
It was correlated with what
was called the logical

773
00:37:22,250 --> 00:37:24,222
positivism in the
Vienna school.

774
00:37:24,222 --> 00:37:29,130
So in Europe, around the same
time and soon after, was the

775
00:37:29,130 --> 00:37:31,054
rise of quantum mechanics.

776
00:37:31,054 --> 00:37:34,036
So if you look at quantum
mechanics, quantum mechanics

777
00:37:34,036 --> 00:37:37,710
was created partly by the Vienna
logical positivists in

778
00:37:37,710 --> 00:37:38,510
math in [INAUDIBLE].

779
00:37:38,510 --> 00:37:41,645
In quantum mechanics what's one
of the fundamental ideas

780
00:37:41,645 --> 00:37:43,830
is what's called an observer.

781
00:37:43,830 --> 00:37:45,280
You know, where it says, look.

782
00:37:45,280 --> 00:37:47,490
Don't talk about what's
not observable.

783
00:37:47,490 --> 00:37:49,380
The important thing is
what's observable.

784
00:37:49,380 --> 00:37:53,050
Everything is sort of rigid
around observance.

785
00:37:53,050 --> 00:37:55,030
All right, so behaviorist
psychology was

786
00:37:55,030 --> 00:37:56,115
almost in the same way.

787
00:37:56,115 --> 00:37:57,833
It says, look, don't talk
about the mind.

788
00:37:57,833 --> 00:37:59,216
We don't know what
the mind is.

789
00:37:59,216 --> 00:38:00,600
It has no separate existence.

790
00:38:00,600 --> 00:38:02,170
Let's just talk about
behaviors.

791
00:38:02,170 --> 00:38:07,936
How does what you do effect
what the organism does?

792
00:38:07,936 --> 00:38:14,146
It's a fine way of training
pigeons, but it's not a great

793
00:38:14,146 --> 00:38:17,900
way of understanding people.

794
00:38:17,900 --> 00:38:21,880
But you can see that it's
actually dominant in lots of

795
00:38:21,880 --> 00:38:23,040
American education.

796
00:38:23,040 --> 00:38:26,440
So Behaviorism was actually
strongest in America, It was

797
00:38:26,440 --> 00:38:31,453
eventually, I would say,
demolished as an intellectual

798
00:38:31,453 --> 00:38:36,374
movement basically
in this space.

799
00:38:36,374 --> 00:38:39,176
I guess the old linguistic
department was here.

800
00:38:39,176 --> 00:38:44,900
And Noam Chomsky in 1957, '59
wrote the review of Skinner's

801
00:38:44,900 --> 00:38:46,865
book on Behaviorism.

802
00:38:46,865 --> 00:38:51,222
And that's considered the coup
de grace of Behaviorism.

803
00:38:51,222 --> 00:38:53,673
But even then, the
idea lives on.

804
00:38:53,673 --> 00:38:56,880
And it underlies so much of what
goes on in this school.

805
00:38:56,880 --> 00:39:00,555
And you can see that with
actually the lively examples

806
00:39:00,555 --> 00:39:01,780
of that, given the core.

807
00:39:01,780 --> 00:39:03,740
I'll give you one more
of that [INAUDIBLE].

808
00:39:03,740 --> 00:39:06,260
So this was a study.

809
00:39:06,260 --> 00:39:12,929
This was fourth, fifth,
and sixth grade.

810
00:39:12,929 --> 00:39:15,670
And they were asked what's
six times three.

811
00:39:15,670 --> 00:39:18,250
Well, they weren't having a
problem with that, It's 18.

812
00:39:18,250 --> 00:39:24,732
They were asked to make
a story problem for 6

813
00:39:24,732 --> 00:39:26,384
times 3 equals 18.

814
00:39:30,446 --> 00:39:33,864
80% of the students
could not do it.

815
00:39:33,864 --> 00:39:36,650
They couldn't make a valid
story problem.

816
00:39:36,650 --> 00:39:38,873
Now, what I mean by story
problem is a word problem.

817
00:39:38,873 --> 00:39:40,580
So they could actually do
the multiplication.

818
00:39:40,580 --> 00:39:41,510
That was no problem.

819
00:39:41,510 --> 00:39:45,310
But to make a problem which used
that multiplication, that

820
00:39:45,310 --> 00:39:48,650
was difficult for them.

821
00:39:48,650 --> 00:39:51,774
Most of the problems they came
up with were along this line.

822
00:39:58,990 --> 00:40:05,386
On Monday, Johnny
buys six apples.

823
00:40:05,386 --> 00:40:07,354
It's always Johnny, not John.

824
00:40:07,354 --> 00:40:08,604
I don't know why.

825
00:40:12,766 --> 00:40:15,226
On Tuesday, Johnny buys
three apples.

826
00:40:21,622 --> 00:40:26,460
So 6 times 3 equals 18.

827
00:40:26,460 --> 00:40:30,955
There's was a fundamental lack
of understanding of what's

828
00:40:30,955 --> 00:40:33,170
going on here behind
the equation.

829
00:40:33,170 --> 00:40:34,391
So the performance was fine.

830
00:40:34,391 --> 00:40:36,350
He said, what's 6 times 3?

831
00:40:36,350 --> 00:40:39,042
18.

832
00:40:39,042 --> 00:40:41,850
And so the observable
was [INAUDIBLE].

833
00:40:41,850 --> 00:40:43,795
So by the [INAUDIBLE] standards
that was fine.

834
00:40:43,795 --> 00:40:44,980
There was no problem.

835
00:40:44,980 --> 00:40:47,428
And so much of it was
on the school.

836
00:40:47,428 --> 00:40:50,236
Bacon just looks at
the outreach.

837
00:40:50,236 --> 00:40:54,180
Whereas, if you actually look
into the [INAUDIBLE], that

838
00:40:54,180 --> 00:40:58,396
Behaviorists say you shouldn't
really do, and ask the tougher

839
00:40:58,396 --> 00:41:00,330
[? question, you'll ?] find
it actually has no meat.

840
00:41:00,330 --> 00:41:02,108
But it's just like tissue.

841
00:41:02,108 --> 00:41:05,384
AUDIENCE: Is the problem here
me, or is it we are looking

842
00:41:05,384 --> 00:41:06,788
for the wrong outputs?

843
00:41:06,788 --> 00:41:11,836
I don't see, per se, how asking
students to make a word

844
00:41:11,836 --> 00:41:15,438
problem is looking into the mind
any deeper than asking

845
00:41:15,438 --> 00:41:18,141
them 6 times 3 equals 18 because
it's an output that's

846
00:41:18,141 --> 00:41:19,798
closer to what we
want students to

847
00:41:19,798 --> 00:41:21,048
actually be able to do.

848
00:41:24,414 --> 00:41:28,110
PROFESSOR: The thing is if they
this, if they produce a

849
00:41:28,110 --> 00:41:31,610
correct story as a formula
too, then you wouldn't be

850
00:41:31,610 --> 00:41:32,320
happy either.

851
00:41:32,320 --> 00:41:35,012
So in some way you want
to know does this

852
00:41:35,012 --> 00:41:37,270
have meaning for them.

853
00:41:37,270 --> 00:41:40,095
So you could then say, well,
6 times 3 is 18.

854
00:41:40,095 --> 00:41:42,306
OK, they understood that.

855
00:41:42,306 --> 00:41:45,270
Now, I want them to
give me the right

856
00:41:45,270 --> 00:41:46,548
output of a story problem.

857
00:41:46,548 --> 00:41:49,512
Well, I have them memorize
a correct story problem.

858
00:41:49,512 --> 00:41:51,363
Whenever they see
multiplication, do this kind

859
00:41:51,363 --> 00:41:52,980
of story problem.

860
00:41:52,980 --> 00:41:55,686
And then, if you ask them the
question give me a story

861
00:41:55,686 --> 00:41:57,918
problem, they would produce
the right output.

862
00:41:57,918 --> 00:41:58,910
But you'd still be unhappy.

863
00:41:58,910 --> 00:42:01,555
You'd have to ask a different
question to figure out if it

864
00:42:01,555 --> 00:42:03,870
actually had any meat.

865
00:42:03,870 --> 00:42:09,350
Maybe for example you'd say,
well, multiplication's pretty

866
00:42:09,350 --> 00:42:12,740
similar to division, so let me
see if they could make a story

867
00:42:12,740 --> 00:42:13,990
problem for division.

868
00:42:13,990 --> 00:42:16,550
Or let me give them a
different question,

869
00:42:16,550 --> 00:42:18,020
which is this one.

870
00:42:18,020 --> 00:42:20,796
Suppose they hadn't had this
question before and hadn't

871
00:42:20,796 --> 00:42:22,046
been pigeon trained with it.

872
00:42:34,190 --> 00:42:37,260
So you could give them that
question and see if they

873
00:42:37,260 --> 00:42:39,414
understood what really
multiplication means.

874
00:42:39,414 --> 00:42:42,153
If they just write down 73,
you would say, OK, they

875
00:42:42,153 --> 00:42:42,900
understood that.

876
00:42:42,900 --> 00:42:45,537
And it would be kind of
pointless to try and have them

877
00:42:45,537 --> 00:42:46,630
memorize all questions
like this.

878
00:42:46,630 --> 00:42:50,130
But after they've seen this kind
of question, yeah, they

879
00:42:50,130 --> 00:42:51,930
might produce the
right output.

880
00:42:51,930 --> 00:42:54,641
If you just tell them, OK,
whenever you see this, one,

881
00:42:54,641 --> 00:42:59,050
two, three, four guys here and
four there, produce 73 here.

882
00:42:59,050 --> 00:43:01,630
Well, that's different from
really in understanding

883
00:43:01,630 --> 00:43:02,820
multiplication.

884
00:43:02,820 --> 00:43:06,731
So I would say output
is not sufficient.

885
00:43:06,731 --> 00:43:10,070
So you have to look
behind the output.

886
00:43:10,070 --> 00:43:12,280
Did that help answer
your question?

887
00:43:12,280 --> 00:43:14,470
AUDIENCE: Well, but I feel
like you're still looking

888
00:43:14,470 --> 00:43:16,972
[INAUDIBLE] but the difference
is the process you used to get

889
00:43:16,972 --> 00:43:19,828
the students to the point where
they can generate that.

890
00:43:19,828 --> 00:43:20,780
PROFESSOR: No.

891
00:43:20,780 --> 00:43:22,684
Well, you're looking at the
output, because that's all you

892
00:43:22,684 --> 00:43:23,170
can look at.

893
00:43:23,170 --> 00:43:31,290
But you're not saying if the
output is fine, it's--

894
00:43:31,290 --> 00:43:34,320
you're making inferences about
what's going behind that.

895
00:43:34,320 --> 00:43:36,470
And that's what behaviorists
don't want.

896
00:43:36,470 --> 00:43:38,800
You're saying, oh, there's
understanding, there's

897
00:43:38,800 --> 00:43:43,259
meaning, there's reasoning going
on beyond the output.

898
00:43:43,259 --> 00:43:44,918
And that's what the Behaviorists
don't want to

899
00:43:44,918 --> 00:43:45,480
talk about.

900
00:43:45,480 --> 00:43:47,875
They just want to talk about
just the outputs.

901
00:43:47,875 --> 00:43:50,300
And that's a fundamental
problem.

902
00:43:50,300 --> 00:43:51,895
Because real understanding--

903
00:43:54,720 --> 00:43:57,520
focus on just outputs leads
to rote learning.

904
00:43:57,520 --> 00:44:00,760
And I think that is one
explanation for why there's so

905
00:44:00,760 --> 00:44:04,814
much rote learning produced in
the American education system.

906
00:44:04,814 --> 00:44:06,308
AUDIENCE: Does anyone--

907
00:44:10,292 --> 00:44:13,280
[INAUDIBLE]

908
00:44:13,280 --> 00:44:14,276
[? location ?]

909
00:44:14,276 --> 00:44:15,770
[INAUDIBLE]

910
00:44:15,770 --> 00:44:18,758
making the contributions
[INAUDIBLE] like understanding

911
00:44:18,758 --> 00:44:21,248
a problem, [INAUDIBLE].

912
00:44:26,760 --> 00:44:31,620
So what's the operation for
that that's different from

913
00:44:31,620 --> 00:44:32,110
making up problem.

914
00:44:32,110 --> 00:44:37,350
Making up a problem requires
more understanding, right?

915
00:44:37,350 --> 00:44:37,800
PROFESSOR: Yeah.

916
00:44:37,800 --> 00:44:39,467
Making up a problem does
require a lot of

917
00:44:39,467 --> 00:44:40,778
understanding.

918
00:44:40,778 --> 00:44:41,215
AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE]

919
00:44:41,215 --> 00:44:46,500
So society wise, you only need
a person to solve the problem

920
00:44:46,500 --> 00:44:49,010
not make up a problem, right?

921
00:44:49,010 --> 00:44:54,010
PROFESSOR: Well, that's
not the purpose of--

922
00:44:54,010 --> 00:44:56,560
so do mean prompt people
to just solve

923
00:44:56,560 --> 00:44:58,320
problems or make up problems?

924
00:44:58,320 --> 00:45:00,010
That can't be the premise
on [INAUDIBLE]

925
00:45:00,010 --> 00:45:02,080
democratic society.

926
00:45:02,080 --> 00:45:02,575
AUDIENCE: Right.

927
00:45:02,575 --> 00:45:03,070
OK.

928
00:45:03,070 --> 00:45:04,555
I agree with that.

929
00:45:04,555 --> 00:45:08,020
But why should [INAUDIBLE]?

930
00:45:08,020 --> 00:45:09,010
PROFESSOR: Pardon?

931
00:45:09,010 --> 00:45:10,990
AUDIENCE: Who's happy to
choose the computation?

932
00:45:10,990 --> 00:45:13,955
They know that 6
times 3 is 18.

933
00:45:13,955 --> 00:45:15,205
[INAUDIBLE].

934
00:45:17,915 --> 00:45:18,905
PROFESSOR: Well,
so it depends.

935
00:45:18,905 --> 00:45:22,370
So on the [INAUDIBLE] in many
schools there's tests that

936
00:45:22,370 --> 00:45:23,860
just test things like that.

937
00:45:23,860 --> 00:45:25,602
[INAUDIBLE] .

938
00:45:25,602 --> 00:45:30,465
So the No Child Left Behind Act
has pretty much mandated

939
00:45:30,465 --> 00:45:32,505
that children be tested
pretty regularly

940
00:45:32,505 --> 00:45:35,394
on their basic skills.

941
00:45:35,394 --> 00:45:38,140
And so there's a ton of
questions and things like that

942
00:45:38,140 --> 00:45:39,510
on these basic skills tests.

943
00:45:39,510 --> 00:45:41,750
So some people care.

944
00:45:41,750 --> 00:45:46,180
And these kind of tests are an
impediment to making any kind

945
00:45:46,180 --> 00:45:47,784
of educational change.

946
00:45:47,784 --> 00:45:52,664
Because if you start spending
time on things like that,

947
00:45:52,664 --> 00:45:56,640
well, then you have less time
to practice three-digit by

948
00:45:56,640 --> 00:45:57,890
five-digit multiplication.

949
00:46:00,750 --> 00:46:03,812
AUDIENCE: Now this
[INAUDIBLE].

950
00:46:03,812 --> 00:46:07,796
We should say [INAUDIBLE]

951
00:46:07,796 --> 00:46:12,278
point first, and then from there
break it down to the

952
00:46:12,278 --> 00:46:13,274
[INAUDIBLE]

953
00:46:13,274 --> 00:46:16,262
much more [INAUDIBLE]
than [INAUDIBLE].

954
00:46:23,234 --> 00:46:24,728
PROFESSOR: That may be true.

955
00:46:24,728 --> 00:46:27,218
So the comment was that maybe
it's better to try something

956
00:46:27,218 --> 00:46:29,210
not so hard as making
up a story problem.

957
00:46:29,210 --> 00:46:29,708
Identify--

958
00:46:29,708 --> 00:46:33,730
AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE] the
[INAUDIBLE] that we need.

959
00:46:33,730 --> 00:46:35,070
PROFESSOR: It shouldn't
be that hard.

960
00:46:35,070 --> 00:46:36,400
AUDIENCE: I mean, we're
on a skill, right?

961
00:46:36,400 --> 00:46:38,142
PROFESSOR: It shouldn't be that
hard, but it is hard if

962
00:46:38,142 --> 00:46:40,158
you've just done drill.

963
00:46:40,158 --> 00:46:40,625
AUDIENCE: Yeah.

964
00:46:40,625 --> 00:46:42,026
If you start so low--

965
00:46:42,026 --> 00:46:42,493
PROFESSOR: Yeah.

966
00:46:42,493 --> 00:46:42,960
I agree.

967
00:46:42,960 --> 00:46:45,370
So it's not saying that
all of a sudden now--

968
00:46:45,370 --> 00:46:47,605
I'm not saying all of a sudden
now you should ask what we're

969
00:46:47,605 --> 00:46:49,500
doing with this question how
to make a story problem.

970
00:46:49,500 --> 00:46:53,333
But this is used as an example
to show how far away we are

971
00:46:53,333 --> 00:46:54,583
from where we'd like to be.

972
00:46:57,190 --> 00:47:03,820
So Behaviorism is, I would say
branded reward and punishment,

973
00:47:03,820 --> 00:47:07,740
pretty much rampant in
American society.

974
00:47:07,740 --> 00:47:11,415
In discussions of merit pay for
teachers, OK, should we

975
00:47:11,415 --> 00:47:14,845
give teachers higher pay if
their students do better on

976
00:47:14,845 --> 00:47:17,050
tests from No Child
Left Behind?

977
00:47:17,050 --> 00:47:21,010
So that is the assumption that
you want more output from the

978
00:47:21,010 --> 00:47:22,480
teacher in that [INAUDIBLE].

979
00:47:22,480 --> 00:47:23,460
You just pay more money.

980
00:47:23,460 --> 00:47:25,420
You give them more
pigeon food.

981
00:47:25,420 --> 00:47:29,340
But there actually maybe other
reasons going on, there may be

982
00:47:29,340 --> 00:47:32,990
completely other factors
besides input output.

983
00:47:32,990 --> 00:47:35,636
For example, maybe teachers
think we shouldn't be teaching

984
00:47:35,636 --> 00:47:37,548
the test this way.

985
00:47:37,548 --> 00:47:40,655
Maybe there's all kinds of
social consideration which

986
00:47:40,655 --> 00:47:47,305
aren't included in just paying
people quote "meritly." So you

987
00:47:47,305 --> 00:47:50,419
could see how rampant it is
because when you say, oh no,

988
00:47:50,419 --> 00:47:51,762
we shouldn't do that
to teachers, people

989
00:47:51,762 --> 00:47:53,850
think you're crazy.

990
00:47:53,850 --> 00:47:56,476
They say, well, of course we
should-- and then they make a

991
00:47:56,476 --> 00:47:58,620
really, really long argument
for why we shouldn't.

992
00:47:58,620 --> 00:48:01,755
So the default is, yeah,
everything should be paid

993
00:48:01,755 --> 00:48:03,502
according to results and
rewards, and rewarding

994
00:48:03,502 --> 00:48:04,500
according to result.

995
00:48:04,500 --> 00:48:04,999
Yeah.

996
00:48:04,999 --> 00:48:06,995
AUDIENCE: I'm curious about what
you think-- because I do

997
00:48:06,995 --> 00:48:09,989
think that there is no question
that in our society

998
00:48:09,989 --> 00:48:12,650
things in which we give respect
to and value as a

999
00:48:12,650 --> 00:48:15,727
society do get paid more and
[INAUDIBLE] to have more

1000
00:48:15,727 --> 00:48:18,840
perspective as we [INAUDIBLE]
our educational system is that

1001
00:48:18,840 --> 00:48:21,074
we don't pay our teachers
anything and

1002
00:48:21,074 --> 00:48:21,714
don't respect them.

1003
00:48:21,714 --> 00:48:24,427
And that's why very few people
actually consider that as a

1004
00:48:24,427 --> 00:48:25,546
real career.

1005
00:48:25,546 --> 00:48:27,470
[INAUDIBLE]

1006
00:48:27,470 --> 00:48:30,272
you know, [INAUDIBLE]
to actually consider

1007
00:48:30,272 --> 00:48:31,206
teaching at my school.

1008
00:48:31,206 --> 00:48:32,607
Very [INAUDIBLE] rate.

1009
00:48:32,607 --> 00:48:34,020
And that's because it's
not respected.

1010
00:48:34,020 --> 00:48:36,970
It's not considered a
challenging [INAUDIBLE].

1011
00:48:36,970 --> 00:48:40,645
But don't you think that the
amount of money that people

1012
00:48:40,645 --> 00:48:43,340
get paid actually does in some
sense request our respect for

1013
00:48:43,340 --> 00:48:44,390
them as a society?

1014
00:48:44,390 --> 00:48:45,340
PROFESSOR: That I agree with.

1015
00:48:45,340 --> 00:48:48,440
So there's the meaning
[INAUDIBLE].

1016
00:48:48,440 --> 00:48:51,460
Yeah, there's meaning associated
with the salary.

1017
00:48:51,460 --> 00:48:55,475
So the problem, what's wrong
with merit pay is that the

1018
00:48:55,475 --> 00:48:58,050
meaning is that you're competing
with other teachers.

1019
00:48:58,050 --> 00:49:01,114
I'll give some money to the
schools and say, now dole it

1020
00:49:01,114 --> 00:49:02,110
out among your teachers.

1021
00:49:02,110 --> 00:49:03,106
And the one's who do best---

1022
00:49:03,106 --> 00:49:03,604
AUDIENCE: Yeah.

1023
00:49:03,604 --> 00:49:04,600
No, I think that's
[INAUDIBLE].

1024
00:49:04,600 --> 00:49:06,810
PROFESSOR: But I agree with
you about increasing the

1025
00:49:06,810 --> 00:49:09,113
overall salaries for teachers.

1026
00:49:09,113 --> 00:49:11,987
And it's exactly right what
you say that it's not

1027
00:49:11,987 --> 00:49:15,140
respected as a profession
in this country.

1028
00:49:15,140 --> 00:49:18,535
And as you say, people who get a
Ph.D from MIT are not likely

1029
00:49:18,535 --> 00:49:21,445
to teach in high school,
which is, I think, sad.

1030
00:49:21,445 --> 00:49:22,950
But it doesn't have
to be that way.

1031
00:49:22,950 --> 00:49:24,200
So in Europe--

1032
00:49:24,200 --> 00:49:27,006
so George Collier, one of the
greatest mathematicians of the

1033
00:49:27,006 --> 00:49:29,148
century, he taught at
a Swiss high school.

1034
00:49:29,148 --> 00:49:32,606
It was a considered a very
respectable position and

1035
00:49:32,606 --> 00:49:33,594
profession.

1036
00:49:33,594 --> 00:49:35,076
It's a serious profession.

1037
00:49:35,076 --> 00:49:37,546
It's really important.

1038
00:49:37,546 --> 00:49:39,870
Whereas, that's pretty
much unheard of here.

1039
00:49:39,870 --> 00:49:42,156
And [INAUDIBLE].

1040
00:49:42,156 --> 00:49:45,130
So it's a combination of
respect and salary.

1041
00:49:45,130 --> 00:49:48,195
And related to that, autonomy.

1042
00:49:48,195 --> 00:49:50,885
So teachers here in America
generally have the least

1043
00:49:50,885 --> 00:49:54,760
autonomy compared to, say,
Western European countries.

1044
00:49:54,760 --> 00:49:57,423
So one way of measuring that
is just how much free time

1045
00:49:57,423 --> 00:49:59,778
teachers have to do curriculum
[INAUDIBLE].

1046
00:49:59,778 --> 00:50:01,662
So think back to your
own high school.

1047
00:50:01,662 --> 00:50:04,730
How many classes did
your teacher teach?

1048
00:50:04,730 --> 00:50:06,232
Typically, six a day.

1049
00:50:06,232 --> 00:50:09,606
I mean, I'm exhausted if I
teach two classes today.

1050
00:50:09,606 --> 00:50:12,498
Because it really takes energy
to teach a class really well,

1051
00:50:12,498 --> 00:50:16,780
think about it, prepare, answer
questions, follow up

1052
00:50:16,780 --> 00:50:19,390
with what happened, and
make references.

1053
00:50:19,390 --> 00:50:21,540
Teaching six times
a day is absurd.

1054
00:50:21,540 --> 00:50:24,692
And all you can do is
just try to survive.

1055
00:50:24,692 --> 00:50:27,584
So that's, again, another
barrier to educational change.

1056
00:50:27,584 --> 00:50:31,882
So that is barrier number
two which is--

1057
00:50:31,882 --> 00:50:34,342
the second we'll call
the [INAUDIBLE].

1058
00:50:48,610 --> 00:50:53,530
So it's the focus on outputs
and reward and punishment.

1059
00:50:53,530 --> 00:50:58,500
And then the next barrier is
another social wide factor

1060
00:50:58,500 --> 00:51:00,840
called Taylorism.

1061
00:51:00,840 --> 00:51:02,690
So Taylor--

1062
00:51:02,690 --> 00:51:06,268
it's related a bit
to Behaviorism.

1063
00:51:06,268 --> 00:51:11,238
So Frederick Taylor was
a mechanical engineer.

1064
00:51:11,238 --> 00:51:12,232
Let's see, when did he live?

1065
00:51:12,232 --> 00:51:17,202
About 1850ish to about
1915 or 1920.

1066
00:51:17,202 --> 00:51:20,200
1856 to 1915.

1067
00:51:20,200 --> 00:51:22,460
So what he did--

1068
00:51:22,460 --> 00:51:27,130
he's the originator of time
and motion studies.

1069
00:51:27,130 --> 00:51:30,260
So time and motion studies
watch how someone, for

1070
00:51:30,260 --> 00:51:33,470
example, is riveting
bolts onto a car.

1071
00:51:33,470 --> 00:51:36,638
And you watch every single
movement and you optimize it.

1072
00:51:36,638 --> 00:51:39,235
And you say, oh, actually if
you have the screwdriver on

1073
00:51:39,235 --> 00:51:42,482
this side, well then when the
car door comes down this way

1074
00:51:42,482 --> 00:51:45,079
you can do this with much
shorter movement than trying

1075
00:51:45,079 --> 00:51:46,870
to do that.

1076
00:51:46,870 --> 00:51:49,367
So they said you can break every
task down with a lots of

1077
00:51:49,367 --> 00:51:52,420
little little fragments
you can optimize.

1078
00:51:52,420 --> 00:51:57,160
Now, this basically took the
whole country by storm in the

1079
00:51:57,160 --> 00:51:59,096
1910s or so.

1080
00:51:59,096 --> 00:52:00,740
Now, how did that happen?

1081
00:52:00,740 --> 00:52:03,908
Well, this was a time of
industrial unrest.

1082
00:52:07,320 --> 00:52:09,920
And unions were striking
demanded higher wages.

1083
00:52:09,920 --> 00:52:16,472
And there was the Interstate
Commerce Commission, which

1084
00:52:16,472 --> 00:52:17,670
regulated the railroad fares.

1085
00:52:17,670 --> 00:52:22,180
And so the railroad attorney,
Louis Brandeis, later Supreme

1086
00:52:22,180 --> 00:52:24,802
Court Justice, argued the in
front of the Interstate

1087
00:52:24,802 --> 00:52:28,760
Commerce Commission, well,
actually we don't have to

1088
00:52:28,760 --> 00:52:30,110
raise fares.

1089
00:52:30,110 --> 00:52:34,455
And we can actually give the
unions some of what they want

1090
00:52:34,455 --> 00:52:36,656
without doing any of
that provided we

1091
00:52:36,656 --> 00:52:38,592
implement Taylor's system.

1092
00:52:38,592 --> 00:52:43,500
So the idea of Taylor's system
was a way of basically trying

1093
00:52:43,500 --> 00:52:48,784
to prevent the unions from
striking, but not distribute

1094
00:52:48,784 --> 00:52:52,090
any of the wealth for
management, but just make

1095
00:52:52,090 --> 00:52:53,660
things more efficient.

1096
00:52:53,660 --> 00:52:58,482
So it was what we now call
the Cult of Efficiency.

1097
00:52:58,482 --> 00:53:03,440
And this Cult of Efficiency I
would say probably could only

1098
00:53:03,440 --> 00:53:07,190
happen in a frontier society,
like America.

1099
00:53:07,190 --> 00:53:11,591
So there's a completely
fascinating book, which I

1100
00:53:11,591 --> 00:53:24,305
highly recommend reading, The
Great Frontier, by Walter

1101
00:53:24,305 --> 00:53:27,270
Prescott Webb.

1102
00:53:27,270 --> 00:53:30,780
So what he looks at is he
looks at the effect on

1103
00:53:30,780 --> 00:53:35,334
European society of the European
discovery of the

1104
00:53:35,334 --> 00:53:39,180
Americas, so around 1500 BC.

1105
00:53:39,180 --> 00:53:41,470
Columbus sailed and all the
explorers were going a sail.

1106
00:53:41,470 --> 00:53:42,370
So what happened?

1107
00:53:42,370 --> 00:53:46,430
Well, before 1500 Europe was
extremely crowded, lots of

1108
00:53:46,430 --> 00:53:51,100
people, very few resources, very
little land, pretty much

1109
00:53:51,100 --> 00:53:54,680
deforested, not much fuel.

1110
00:53:54,680 --> 00:53:56,720
And so it was a hard
place to live.

1111
00:53:59,480 --> 00:54:02,890
With the discovery of the new
world, that switched.

1112
00:54:02,890 --> 00:54:06,618
There was now a ton of land
and not enough people,

1113
00:54:06,618 --> 00:54:10,524
especially after the Indians
all got small pox and died.

1114
00:54:10,524 --> 00:54:14,680
There was a ton of natural
resources-- wood, minerals,

1115
00:54:14,680 --> 00:54:16,250
eventually oil.

1116
00:54:16,250 --> 00:54:21,409
So around 1500, so the world
society changed.

1117
00:54:21,409 --> 00:54:22,816
At least the European society.

1118
00:54:22,816 --> 00:54:26,440
And with it, changed conceptions
of how society

1119
00:54:26,440 --> 00:54:28,460
should work.

1120
00:54:28,460 --> 00:54:33,018
And in the frontier societies,
basically everything was there

1121
00:54:33,018 --> 00:54:34,148
for the taking.

1122
00:54:34,148 --> 00:54:36,084
You just had to work
to get it.

1123
00:54:36,084 --> 00:54:39,956
So in a frontier society,
basically work was a religion.

1124
00:54:39,956 --> 00:54:42,860
That was the religion of
a frontier society.

1125
00:54:42,860 --> 00:54:45,050
And you can still see
that in America.

1126
00:54:45,050 --> 00:54:47,856
How many weeks of holidays
do people have completely

1127
00:54:47,856 --> 00:54:48,840
guaranteed?

1128
00:54:48,840 --> 00:54:51,300
I think zero.

1129
00:54:51,300 --> 00:54:54,517
And whereas in-- for example,
England, I think it was four

1130
00:54:54,517 --> 00:54:56,274
weeks, maybe statutory
minimum.

1131
00:54:56,274 --> 00:54:59,148
In Germany, it's five
or six weeks.

1132
00:54:59,148 --> 00:55:02,980
So in the frontier society, work
will be your religion.

1133
00:55:02,980 --> 00:55:08,411
And it's likely to be placed
where ideas such as Taylorism

1134
00:55:08,411 --> 00:55:11,610
will grow, and sprout,
and thrive.

1135
00:55:11,610 --> 00:55:15,708
So Taylorism spread throughout
the entire country, including

1136
00:55:15,708 --> 00:55:17,904
to the schools.

1137
00:55:17,904 --> 00:55:19,368
And you can still see
it in school.

1138
00:55:19,368 --> 00:55:23,272
School is considered
a factory.

1139
00:55:23,272 --> 00:55:25,712
And the inputs are
the students.

1140
00:55:25,712 --> 00:55:28,152
And we want to do that as
efficiently as possible.

1141
00:55:28,152 --> 00:55:32,285
Think class size, giant
buildings to [INAUDIBLE]

1142
00:55:32,285 --> 00:55:36,130
to produce more product
at the end.

1143
00:55:36,130 --> 00:55:40,004
So this is one of the early
examples of a Taylor school.

1144
00:55:42,840 --> 00:55:44,650
The Platoon School.

1145
00:55:44,650 --> 00:55:46,730
So this was an elementary
school.

1146
00:55:46,730 --> 00:55:48,170
What they did was they--

1147
00:55:48,170 --> 00:55:49,420
this is absurd.

1148
00:55:52,500 --> 00:55:56,750
They enrolled 10% to 70% more
children than there were seats

1149
00:55:56,750 --> 00:55:57,510
for in the classrooms.

1150
00:55:57,510 --> 00:55:59,382
So [INAUDIBLE]

1151
00:55:59,382 --> 00:56:00,786
efficiency.

1152
00:56:00,786 --> 00:56:04,795
This is done by dumping the 10%
to 70% on the playground,

1153
00:56:04,795 --> 00:56:06,510
into the auditorium
or basement.

1154
00:56:06,510 --> 00:56:09,608
So by keeping all the children
rotating from room to room,

1155
00:56:09,608 --> 00:56:13,560
teacher to teacher, so that
the same 10% to 70%

1156
00:56:13,560 --> 00:56:16,030
[INAUDIBLE] way longer than 30
consecutive minutes to get

1157
00:56:16,030 --> 00:56:18,994
into classrooms.

1158
00:56:18,994 --> 00:56:21,796
So even the 6-year-old children
have 6 or 7 teachers

1159
00:56:21,796 --> 00:56:25,270
a day and as many as 12
or 13 in some cities.

1160
00:56:25,270 --> 00:56:27,340
And teachers handle as many as
400 people through the day and

1161
00:56:27,340 --> 00:56:28,450
1,000 a week.

1162
00:56:28,450 --> 00:56:31,950
So the terrorists came to the
school and said, hey, look,

1163
00:56:31,950 --> 00:56:36,030
these schools-- it's all very
relevant to have small schools

1164
00:56:36,030 --> 00:56:37,880
for people, but really,
it's not efficient.

1165
00:56:37,880 --> 00:56:40,220
Look, there's all this
inefficiency you could squeeze

1166
00:56:40,220 --> 00:56:41,820
out of the system.

1167
00:56:41,820 --> 00:56:44,710
And so you can see probably
MIT's going to be going

1168
00:56:44,710 --> 00:56:47,578
through something like that with
the budget cuts, all the

1169
00:56:47,578 --> 00:56:49,490
[INAUDIBLE].

1170
00:56:49,490 --> 00:56:50,860
And trying to squeeze
the life--

1171
00:56:50,860 --> 00:56:54,270
I mean, the inefficiencies
out of the place.

1172
00:56:54,270 --> 00:56:56,574
So what they said was they said,
oh, look, there are all

1173
00:56:56,574 --> 00:56:59,382
these rooms that aren't
being used.

1174
00:56:59,382 --> 00:57:01,645
You have the gym that's
not used all the time.

1175
00:57:01,645 --> 00:57:04,760
There's the lunch room that's
only used at lunch time.

1176
00:57:04,760 --> 00:57:05,450
That's crazy.

1177
00:57:05,450 --> 00:57:07,756
There's an empty room there.

1178
00:57:07,756 --> 00:57:10,690
There's the playground that's
only used at recess.

1179
00:57:10,690 --> 00:57:12,034
What we should do is we
should rotate the

1180
00:57:12,034 --> 00:57:13,135
kids all the way through.

1181
00:57:13,135 --> 00:57:15,820
And you'll actually see
that in schools now.

1182
00:57:15,820 --> 00:57:19,430
Many of them have lunch period
that starts at 10:00 AM, and

1183
00:57:19,430 --> 00:57:23,020
the lunch period goes till
almost 2:00, because it's a

1184
00:57:23,020 --> 00:57:25,960
much more efficient use
of the lunch room.

1185
00:57:25,960 --> 00:57:29,145
But ironically, they had to
cancel recess, because recess

1186
00:57:29,145 --> 00:57:30,370
is inefficient.

1187
00:57:30,370 --> 00:57:33,800
Recess is not efficient for
doing standardized test

1188
00:57:33,800 --> 00:57:35,440
problems, so you guys will
see that as well.

1189
00:57:35,440 --> 00:57:37,678
So again, they called
it efficiency.

1190
00:57:37,678 --> 00:57:40,123
That was back in the
'20s [INAUDIBLE].

1191
00:57:40,123 --> 00:57:43,383
It's from Raymond Callahan's
book called Education and the

1192
00:57:43,383 --> 00:57:46,480
Cult of Efficiency: A Study of
the Social Forces that have

1193
00:57:46,480 --> 00:57:48,925
Shaped the Administration
of Public School.

1194
00:57:48,925 --> 00:57:52,348
It's about Taylorism in
the public schools.

1195
00:57:52,348 --> 00:57:54,304
But it continues to today.

1196
00:57:54,304 --> 00:57:56,680
In No Child Left Behind,
you can see is a

1197
00:57:56,680 --> 00:57:57,764
perfect example of it.

1198
00:57:57,764 --> 00:57:59,150
[INAUDIBLE]

1199
00:57:59,150 --> 00:58:02,107
wrote, he said, "The long lines
of marching children

1200
00:58:02,107 --> 00:58:04,775
that look to be like nothing
so much as the lines of

1201
00:58:04,775 --> 00:58:08,412
uncompleted Ford cars in the
factory, moving always on with

1202
00:58:08,412 --> 00:58:11,322
a screw put on or a [INAUDIBLE]
tighten as they

1203
00:58:11,322 --> 00:58:13,020
passed-- standardized,
mechanical, pitiful.

1204
00:58:13,020 --> 00:58:15,320
When the factory system carried
into the public

1205
00:58:15,320 --> 00:58:18,856
school, which needs only the
closing time whistle to make

1206
00:58:18,856 --> 00:58:21,832
complete [INAUDIBLE] with
giant, great industrial

1207
00:58:21,832 --> 00:58:22,824
plants."

1208
00:58:22,824 --> 00:58:25,800
So there you have another
fundamentally

1209
00:58:25,800 --> 00:58:29,272
important social factor.

1210
00:58:29,272 --> 00:58:30,264
[INAUDIBLE].

1211
00:58:30,264 --> 00:58:33,736
So behaviorism and Taylorism are
sort of lumped together.

1212
00:58:37,230 --> 00:58:40,940
Which is the joining of the
school and the factory and the

1213
00:58:40,940 --> 00:58:43,910
educational system and
the social order.

1214
00:58:51,400 --> 00:58:54,121
So that I'll call the social
history of education.

1215
00:59:10,710 --> 00:59:13,439
So education-- and America was
one of the leading countries

1216
00:59:13,439 --> 00:59:17,870
in this, in making schools
free and required--

1217
00:59:17,870 --> 00:59:20,510
compulsory free education.

1218
00:59:20,510 --> 00:59:22,650
[INAUDIBLE] public school.

1219
00:59:22,650 --> 00:59:26,030
So this-- in Massachusetts,
actually-- our state was the

1220
00:59:26,030 --> 00:59:29,680
leading state in American
[INAUDIBLE].

1221
00:59:29,680 --> 00:59:33,830
And so Horace Mann
in the 1840s--

1222
00:59:33,830 --> 00:59:37,410
he was one of the leading
educational reformers.

1223
00:59:37,410 --> 00:59:39,540
And he was arguing
to businessmen.

1224
00:59:39,540 --> 00:59:42,800
OK, you really should be willing
to have higher taxes

1225
00:59:42,800 --> 00:59:44,720
to make schools free
and required.

1226
00:59:44,720 --> 00:59:49,332
Now, why would businesses want
to part with their profits to

1227
00:59:49,332 --> 00:59:50,190
pay for schools?

1228
00:59:50,190 --> 00:59:55,285
But he says, look, there's all
these benefits from schools.

1229
00:59:55,285 --> 00:59:58,968
The schooled workers are more
docile and quick in applying

1230
00:59:58,968 --> 01:00:00,588
themselves to work.

1231
01:00:00,588 --> 01:00:03,900
They had better domestic and
social habits, you know,

1232
01:00:03,900 --> 01:00:04,870
punctuality and fidelity.

1233
01:00:04,870 --> 01:00:07,480
They have higher punctuality
and fidelity in the

1234
01:00:07,480 --> 01:00:08,950
performance of their duties.

1235
01:00:08,950 --> 01:00:13,150
So basically, he was arguing
for school as a method of

1236
01:00:13,150 --> 01:00:14,372
social control.

1237
01:00:14,372 --> 01:00:18,184
Now, there was a strange feature
in my high school,

1238
01:00:18,184 --> 01:00:21,523
which I never understood till
I actually read about this.

1239
01:00:21,523 --> 01:00:24,623
History of Horace Mann called
the School of America, which

1240
01:00:24,623 --> 01:00:28,080
was that-- so I experienced
this first-hand.

1241
01:00:28,080 --> 01:00:32,287
One day in my high school, this
racist student attacked

1242
01:00:32,287 --> 01:00:34,850
me and called me nasty names.

1243
01:00:34,850 --> 01:00:36,670
And so when I fought back--

1244
01:00:36,670 --> 01:00:40,194
and we sort of fought to a draw,
which was good because

1245
01:00:40,194 --> 01:00:43,500
he was trying to do
serious damage.

1246
01:00:43,500 --> 01:00:47,310
As a result, the school policy
was that whoever was in the

1247
01:00:47,310 --> 01:00:50,670
fight was suspended
for three days.

1248
01:00:50,670 --> 01:00:52,932
So we were both automatically
suspended, and then had to go

1249
01:00:52,932 --> 01:00:55,340
to court to figure out who
was really at fault.

1250
01:00:55,340 --> 01:00:57,116
But by then, of course,
I'd already been

1251
01:00:57,116 --> 01:00:58,650
suspended for two days.

1252
01:00:58,650 --> 01:01:01,080
So I was suspended for three
days and I got to find out,

1253
01:01:01,080 --> 01:01:02,770
what are the policies when
you miss school?

1254
01:01:02,770 --> 01:01:04,110
So it was very interesting.

1255
01:01:04,110 --> 01:01:09,590
So first of all, if you're late
to school three times in

1256
01:01:09,590 --> 01:01:13,790
a quarter, then you fail
for that quarter.

1257
01:01:13,790 --> 01:01:17,138
If you fail in the second
quarter of a semester, you

1258
01:01:17,138 --> 01:01:18,442
fail the semester.

1259
01:01:18,442 --> 01:01:21,050
If you fail in the second
semester of a course, you fail

1260
01:01:21,050 --> 01:01:22,660
the entire year.

1261
01:01:22,660 --> 01:01:25,320
And if you failed a required
course, like English--

1262
01:01:25,320 --> 01:01:28,036
math or English required-- then
you failed the entire

1263
01:01:28,036 --> 01:01:30,436
year and had to repeat
the whole grade.

1264
01:01:30,436 --> 01:01:32,640
OK, so they were very, very,
very sticklers about

1265
01:01:32,640 --> 01:01:34,030
punctuality.

1266
01:01:34,030 --> 01:01:35,470
But they didn't really
care what your

1267
01:01:35,470 --> 01:01:36,860
grades were that much.

1268
01:01:36,860 --> 01:01:39,480
You could get C's and D's on
tests and you'd do much better

1269
01:01:39,480 --> 01:01:41,217
than if you missed four
days of school.

1270
01:01:41,217 --> 01:01:43,085
Now, my teachers were
nice in this case.

1271
01:01:43,085 --> 01:01:44,490
Said, no, don't worry
about it.

1272
01:01:44,490 --> 01:01:46,580
Good thing you fought and
stood up for yourself.

1273
01:01:46,580 --> 01:01:48,950
We won't do any of that stuff.

1274
01:01:48,950 --> 01:01:52,706
So it was always puzzling to me
why punctuality was so much

1275
01:01:52,706 --> 01:01:55,500
more important in this public
school, which was supposed to

1276
01:01:55,500 --> 01:01:57,525
be one of the leading public
schools [INAUDIBLE], than the

1277
01:01:57,525 --> 01:02:01,800
actual grades you got and
how much you learned.

1278
01:02:01,800 --> 01:02:04,180
When I read the history
of Horace Mann, I

1279
01:02:04,180 --> 01:02:05,575
thought, oh, yeah.

1280
01:02:05,575 --> 01:02:06,970
That actually made
perfect sense.

1281
01:02:06,970 --> 01:02:09,680
The purpose of the school wasn't
necessarily to teach

1282
01:02:09,680 --> 01:02:11,280
people to think and
really understand.

1283
01:02:11,280 --> 01:02:15,735
The social history behind it was
to produce people who are

1284
01:02:15,735 --> 01:02:18,705
basically docile workers for the
factory system, which was

1285
01:02:18,705 --> 01:02:27,130
just coming around
in the 1840s.

1286
01:02:27,130 --> 01:02:29,703
So there were many comments
along those lines.

1287
01:02:29,703 --> 01:02:32,168
One of the arguments also for
the school was similar.

1288
01:02:32,168 --> 01:02:37,230
It was a resolution that the
best police for our cities,

1289
01:02:37,230 --> 01:02:40,467
the lowest insurance of our
houses, the permanent security

1290
01:02:40,467 --> 01:02:43,450
for our banks, the most
effective means of preventing

1291
01:02:43,450 --> 01:02:46,282
pauperism, vice, and crime, and
the only sure defense of

1292
01:02:46,282 --> 01:02:48,480
our country are our
common schools.

1293
01:02:48,480 --> 01:02:52,770
They mean the public, free
schools that are required.

1294
01:02:52,770 --> 01:02:55,160
So again, it's seen
as a defense

1295
01:02:55,160 --> 01:02:58,900
of property, basically.

1296
01:02:58,900 --> 01:03:02,145
This was true-- so when I say
America, it's not just

1297
01:03:02,145 --> 01:03:03,180
America, actually.

1298
01:03:03,180 --> 01:03:06,750
England in 1870 passed an
education act that required

1299
01:03:06,750 --> 01:03:08,424
public schooling.

1300
01:03:08,424 --> 01:03:10,860
[INAUDIBLE].

1301
01:03:10,860 --> 01:03:15,020
And the arguments in England
were almost exactly the same.

1302
01:03:15,020 --> 01:03:17,357
"Would not the policemen be
better employed in assisting

1303
01:03:17,357 --> 01:03:20,437
the work of the school master by
collecting [INAUDIBLE] for

1304
01:03:20,437 --> 01:03:22,575
school attendance the willfully
neglected children

1305
01:03:22,575 --> 01:03:29,625
who are [INAUDIBLE] recruits for
the great army of crime."

1306
01:03:29,625 --> 01:03:32,295
We wanted to prevent the working
classes from engaging

1307
01:03:32,295 --> 01:03:35,169
in those vain strikes which end
in 99 out of 100 leaving

1308
01:03:35,169 --> 01:03:38,043
them in worse condition
than before.

1309
01:03:38,043 --> 01:03:39,835
We wanted to keep them from
habits of waste and

1310
01:03:39,835 --> 01:03:41,883
improvidence that some knowledge
of the succession of

1311
01:03:41,883 --> 01:03:44,300
events in life, such as
education could supply.

1312
01:03:44,300 --> 01:03:48,182
So in other words, education
has a class role.

1313
01:03:48,182 --> 01:03:52,670
So that history of education,
it still permeates it.

1314
01:03:52,670 --> 01:03:54,140
And people were very
open about this.

1315
01:03:54,140 --> 01:03:57,612
These weren't secret documents
that people wrote in their

1316
01:03:57,612 --> 01:03:58,108
conspiratory council.

1317
01:03:58,108 --> 01:04:01,580
These were openly discussed,
saying this is why you should

1318
01:04:01,580 --> 01:04:03,068
pay for schools.

1319
01:04:03,068 --> 01:04:05,480
I would say it was even quite
a soph-- reached quite a

1320
01:04:05,480 --> 01:04:07,035
sophisticated level.

1321
01:04:07,035 --> 01:04:10,760
So William Whewell, he was
master of Trinity College,

1322
01:04:10,760 --> 01:04:14,852
Cambridge, in the
1860s, I think.

1323
01:04:14,852 --> 01:04:18,489
So when he was a university
professor, before becoming

1324
01:04:18,489 --> 01:04:20,778
master at Trinity, he was
commenting on the difference

1325
01:04:20,778 --> 01:04:23,810
between the European and the,
say, English and American

1326
01:04:23,810 --> 01:04:25,013
educational system.

1327
01:04:25,013 --> 01:04:28,155
And he said, well, actually,
they had [INAUDIBLE]

1328
01:04:28,155 --> 01:04:28,650
problem in Europe.

1329
01:04:28,650 --> 01:04:30,610
And the problem [INAUDIBLE].

1330
01:04:30,610 --> 01:04:33,024
So he was recommending the
teaching of mathematics.

1331
01:04:33,024 --> 01:04:34,952
He said, "The mathematical
doctrines

1332
01:04:34,952 --> 01:04:36,398
were fixed and permanent.

1333
01:04:36,398 --> 01:04:39,772
No new system of geometry
can supersede the old.

1334
01:04:39,772 --> 01:04:41,700
Not only so, but even the old
books remain in use."

1335
01:04:41,700 --> 01:04:46,167
So now contrasting that, "The
fixed and constant nature of

1336
01:04:46,167 --> 01:04:48,662
mathematics was not likely to
promote the critical spirit

1337
01:04:48,662 --> 01:04:49,161
[INAUDIBLE]

1338
01:04:49,161 --> 01:04:52,155
France and Germany, where too
much attention to the more

1339
01:04:52,155 --> 01:04:55,149
provisional and contentious
observational sciences had

1340
01:04:55,149 --> 01:04:58,143
been partly responsible for the
imminent general hostility

1341
01:04:58,143 --> 01:05:01,137
to the existing institutions
in their country."

1342
01:05:01,137 --> 01:05:04,090
So in other words, we should
teach mathematics because it

1343
01:05:04,090 --> 01:05:05,630
has one answer.

1344
01:05:05,630 --> 01:05:06,680
[INAUDIBLE]

1345
01:05:06,680 --> 01:05:08,600
conclude about society, too.

1346
01:05:08,600 --> 01:05:11,960
It has the one answer, which
is the society we have.

1347
01:05:11,960 --> 01:05:15,295
Whereas, if you teach
observational sciences, social

1348
01:05:15,295 --> 01:05:18,410
sciences, people might start
questioning way too much.

1349
01:05:18,410 --> 01:05:20,810
So there was not just schools,
but what should we teach in

1350
01:05:20,810 --> 01:05:23,110
our schools?

1351
01:05:23,110 --> 01:05:28,850
So that history is very, very
hard to overcome because it's

1352
01:05:28,850 --> 01:05:33,302
so deeply embedded into the
foundation of a school.

1353
01:05:33,302 --> 01:05:36,170
We will find its purpose
is like that.

1354
01:05:36,170 --> 01:05:38,321
Such purposes keep creeping
up whenever you

1355
01:05:38,321 --> 01:05:40,010
try to change things.

1356
01:05:40,010 --> 01:05:43,090
So there are all kinds of things
that are crazy in the

1357
01:05:43,090 --> 01:05:45,973
schools that we do that you
don't necessarily need to do

1358
01:05:45,973 --> 01:05:46,642
in the school.

1359
01:05:46,642 --> 01:05:48,073
For example, grading.

1360
01:05:48,073 --> 01:05:51,412
Why do schools have to grade?

1361
01:05:51,412 --> 01:05:54,240
People think, oh, well, how
will other people know?

1362
01:05:54,240 --> 01:05:57,000
If other people want to know
what students can do, let them

1363
01:05:57,000 --> 01:05:57,920
worry about it.

1364
01:05:57,920 --> 01:05:59,760
Why does the school
have to do that?

1365
01:05:59,760 --> 01:06:01,240
Sure, it's school.

1366
01:06:01,240 --> 01:06:04,174
It could tell students, look
you're not learning this idea

1367
01:06:04,174 --> 01:06:06,130
very well, you could spend
more time on that.

1368
01:06:06,130 --> 01:06:07,597
You're learning this
idea really good.

1369
01:06:07,597 --> 01:06:08,880
You don't need to spend
any more time on that.

1370
01:06:08,880 --> 01:06:11,430
That kind of evaluation, for
the student's benefit, is

1371
01:06:11,430 --> 01:06:11,960
quite useful.

1372
01:06:11,960 --> 01:06:15,420
But why should that be
publicized to other people?

1373
01:06:15,420 --> 01:06:17,850
Well, those are two separate
questions, but they're

1374
01:06:17,850 --> 01:06:20,300
automatically conflated
because-- partly, the purpose

1375
01:06:20,300 --> 01:06:24,540
of the school is to get
people to accept their

1376
01:06:24,540 --> 01:06:26,714
place in the society.

1377
01:06:26,714 --> 01:06:30,158
There was a very interesting
experiment along those lines.

1378
01:06:30,158 --> 01:06:30,650
I don't know if you know it.

1379
01:06:30,650 --> 01:06:33,110
It was blues eyes, brown eyes.

1380
01:06:33,110 --> 01:06:36,680
So this is related to tracking
and grading.

1381
01:06:36,680 --> 01:06:38,590
So I don't think you could
do this experiment today.

1382
01:06:38,590 --> 01:06:40,300
But what they was they took--

1383
01:06:40,300 --> 01:06:42,810
I think it was third graders.

1384
01:06:42,810 --> 01:06:46,760
And they came into the
class and they said,

1385
01:06:46,760 --> 01:06:47,900
OK, you third graders.

1386
01:06:47,900 --> 01:06:51,135
We've just found out that the
blue-eyed children are more

1387
01:06:51,135 --> 01:06:52,582
intelligent than brown-eyed
children.

1388
01:06:52,582 --> 01:06:54,852
And so we're going to have
to teach them separately.

1389
01:06:54,852 --> 01:06:59,110
So they then separated into two
classrooms and they taught

1390
01:06:59,110 --> 01:07:01,380
them exactly the same stuff.

1391
01:07:01,380 --> 01:07:04,770
And then they tested them a
while later and they found the

1392
01:07:04,770 --> 01:07:07,927
blue-eyed children did much,
much better than the

1393
01:07:07,927 --> 01:07:08,921
brown-eyed children.

1394
01:07:08,921 --> 01:07:12,897
So sure, the test results
must have been correct.

1395
01:07:12,897 --> 01:07:15,382
Actually what they did is
afterwards they said,

1396
01:07:15,382 --> 01:07:17,370
actually, no we fucked up--

1397
01:07:17,370 --> 01:07:17,867
sorry.

1398
01:07:17,867 --> 01:07:20,849
[LAUGHTER]

1399
01:07:20,849 --> 01:07:22,340
We screwed up.

1400
01:07:22,340 --> 01:07:24,120
And actually, we got
it backwards.

1401
01:07:24,120 --> 01:07:26,710
It was the brown-eyed children
who were more intelligent than

1402
01:07:26,710 --> 01:07:27,550
the blue-eyed children.

1403
01:07:27,550 --> 01:07:28,970
So we had to switch
the classrooms.

1404
01:07:28,970 --> 01:07:30,222
So they switched
the classrooms.

1405
01:07:30,222 --> 01:07:33,198
And of course, they taught them
exactly the same stuff.

1406
01:07:33,198 --> 01:07:35,690
And what do you think happened
[INAUDIBLE]?

1407
01:07:35,690 --> 01:07:37,696
They flipped.

1408
01:07:37,696 --> 01:07:39,774
That's an example
of the effect of

1409
01:07:39,774 --> 01:07:43,150
tracking and grading.

1410
01:07:43,150 --> 01:07:46,940
So what's the result of that is
that, well, students then

1411
01:07:46,940 --> 01:07:48,140
accept their place.

1412
01:07:48,140 --> 01:07:49,050
They think, oh, yeah.

1413
01:07:49,050 --> 01:07:51,450
I am the dumb student.

1414
01:07:51,450 --> 01:07:52,910
I am the bad reader.

1415
01:07:52,910 --> 01:07:54,770
Oh, I'm just not so
good at math.

1416
01:07:54,770 --> 01:07:56,630
It's my fault.

1417
01:07:56,630 --> 01:07:58,960
Rather than-- well, it's
the way it's taught.

1418
01:07:58,960 --> 01:08:04,660
It's that I came from a family
where we just didn't have much

1419
01:08:04,660 --> 01:08:05,240
money, even for food.

1420
01:08:05,240 --> 01:08:08,210
And the society just didn't
provide that, so I was

1421
01:08:08,210 --> 01:08:09,900
hungry every day.

1422
01:08:09,900 --> 01:08:13,185
So there's all kinds of social
explanations which you're

1423
01:08:13,185 --> 01:08:16,260
taught not to look at.

1424
01:08:16,260 --> 01:08:19,340
And even the very problems that
are done in school tend

1425
01:08:19,340 --> 01:08:22,765
to reinforce the social
order that we have.

1426
01:08:22,765 --> 01:08:25,270
So an example of that, to really
show how strong that

1427
01:08:25,270 --> 01:08:28,930
tendency is, is look at the
problems that are done about

1428
01:08:28,930 --> 01:08:29,908
percentages.

1429
01:08:29,908 --> 01:08:33,820
The percentage problems are
always of the following form.

1430
01:08:33,820 --> 01:08:39,890
Johnny has $1,000 which he lends
to Jane at 6% interest.

1431
01:08:39,890 --> 01:08:43,739
How much interest does Jane
pay after two years?

1432
01:08:43,739 --> 01:08:44,950
Well, there's many interesting
features about that.

1433
01:08:44,950 --> 01:08:46,514
First of all, Johnny
makes the money.

1434
01:08:46,514 --> 01:08:48,834
The guy has the money
and not the woman.

1435
01:08:48,834 --> 01:08:51,010
The woman is the borrower.

1436
01:08:51,010 --> 01:08:55,310
So now, with feminism, we've
made it so that Jane

1437
01:08:55,310 --> 01:08:56,140
can have the money.

1438
01:08:56,140 --> 01:08:58,240
But you haven't changed the
fundamental problem, which is

1439
01:08:58,240 --> 01:08:59,960
that the problem is
reinforcing the

1440
01:08:59,960 --> 01:09:01,847
idea of money lending.

1441
01:09:01,847 --> 01:09:02,845
[INAUDIBLE].

1442
01:09:02,845 --> 01:09:05,340
What about the following
problem, which you never see,

1443
01:09:05,340 --> 01:09:06,790
which is also [INAUDIBLE]

1444
01:09:06,790 --> 01:09:08,040
interesting percentage problem?

1445
01:09:10,816 --> 01:09:14,790
The hourly minimum wage
is $7 an hour.

1446
01:09:14,790 --> 01:09:18,454
If somebody works 40 hours a
week, what's their salary?

1447
01:09:18,454 --> 01:09:20,318
OK, it's this much.

1448
01:09:20,318 --> 01:09:22,649
It's roughly $14,000 a year.

1449
01:09:22,649 --> 01:09:24,990
What percentage of the
federal poverty line

1450
01:09:24,990 --> 01:09:26,595
is $14,000 a year?

1451
01:09:26,595 --> 01:09:29,728
That's an equally interesting
percentage problem, but it has

1452
01:09:29,728 --> 01:09:31,897
a different social message.

1453
01:09:31,897 --> 01:09:34,789
So the schools have chosen,
basically [INAUDIBLE] social

1454
01:09:34,789 --> 01:09:38,060
pressures that push towards one
kind of problem, one kind

1455
01:09:38,060 --> 01:09:40,779
of grading, one kind
of system.

1456
01:09:40,779 --> 01:09:42,997
And this is despite what people

1457
01:09:42,997 --> 01:09:44,488
know about these things.

1458
01:09:44,488 --> 01:09:47,967
So blue eyes, brown eyes
experiment shows what's the

1459
01:09:47,967 --> 01:09:49,458
detrimental effect
[INAUDIBLE].

1460
01:09:49,458 --> 01:09:52,440
Many people say, well, actually,
[INAUDIBLE].

1461
01:09:52,440 --> 01:09:54,925
Another example is tracking.

1462
01:09:54,925 --> 01:09:58,410
So tracking where people
know that it's harmful.

1463
01:09:58,410 --> 01:10:01,790
So a friend of mine in New
York, he went to an elite

1464
01:10:01,790 --> 01:10:02,646
private school.

1465
01:10:02,646 --> 01:10:04,926
It's a small, elite
private school.

1466
01:10:04,926 --> 01:10:07,416
And one year they decided
to introduce tracking.

1467
01:10:07,416 --> 01:10:11,649
So tracking is advanced math,
median math, OK math, and

1468
01:10:11,649 --> 01:10:12,396
remedial math.

1469
01:10:12,396 --> 01:10:19,060
And after a year, there was
a parental revolt and they

1470
01:10:19,060 --> 01:10:20,144
abolished it.

1471
01:10:20,144 --> 01:10:21,566
The parents said, this
is outrageous.

1472
01:10:21,566 --> 01:10:24,751
We're not paying $25,000 a year
for you to tell our kid

1473
01:10:24,751 --> 01:10:27,910
that our kid is not
intelligent.

1474
01:10:27,910 --> 01:10:29,513
Get rid of it.

1475
01:10:29,513 --> 01:10:31,445
Whereas, it's considered
perfectly acceptable to do

1476
01:10:31,445 --> 01:10:34,350
that to kids in public
schools.

1477
01:10:34,350 --> 01:10:36,538
So people know, yet
the thing goes on.

1478
01:10:36,538 --> 01:10:40,450
So whenever you see something
like that happening, you can

1479
01:10:40,450 --> 01:10:44,362
bet there's some really deeply
embedded social history--

1480
01:10:44,362 --> 01:10:46,807
the purposes of the schools.

1481
01:10:46,807 --> 01:10:49,712
And related to the social
history is the social history

1482
01:10:49,712 --> 01:10:50,180
of our society.

1483
01:10:50,180 --> 01:10:54,295
So these tendencies, they're
not immutable.

1484
01:10:54,295 --> 01:10:57,656
All social factors have changed
in the past and all of

1485
01:10:57,656 --> 01:10:59,090
them can change again.

1486
01:10:59,090 --> 01:11:02,570
But in order to change them,
It's important to be aware.

1487
01:11:02,570 --> 01:11:03,556
You have a question?

1488
01:11:03,556 --> 01:11:04,049
AUDIENCE: Yeah.

1489
01:11:04,049 --> 01:11:06,514
I just had a question with the
whole concepts of getting the

1490
01:11:06,514 --> 01:11:08,979
grades, which I can see is
a benefit in some ways.

1491
01:11:08,979 --> 01:11:12,430
But I feel like [INAUDIBLE]

1492
01:11:12,430 --> 01:11:15,388
to just stop grading children,
I feel like at least at the

1493
01:11:15,388 --> 01:11:18,839
level of college acceptance,
there's still going to be some

1494
01:11:18,839 --> 01:11:24,445
level of evaluating
the children.

1495
01:11:24,445 --> 01:11:28,405
And eventually, it's just going
to be that some other

1496
01:11:28,405 --> 01:11:31,705
form of evaluation is leading
to this separation, even if

1497
01:11:31,705 --> 01:11:33,850
it's not just by numbers.

1498
01:11:33,850 --> 01:11:35,100
Saying [INAUDIBLE].

1499
01:11:41,275 --> 01:11:44,245
And is there any way you could
really deal with it without

1500
01:11:44,245 --> 01:11:45,270
having grades?

1501
01:11:45,270 --> 01:11:47,243
PROFESSOR: Well, I think
you've identified the

1502
01:11:47,243 --> 01:11:51,750
fundamental problem, which
is the competition.

1503
01:11:51,750 --> 01:11:53,842
So it's sort of like
the water bed.

1504
01:11:53,842 --> 01:11:56,818
If you sit on one side
of the water bed, the

1505
01:11:56,818 --> 01:11:57,816
other side goes up.

1506
01:11:57,816 --> 01:12:00,061
So if you reduce the competition
in one place, it

1507
01:12:00,061 --> 01:12:01,808
might increase in other ways.

1508
01:12:01,808 --> 01:12:03,429
So for example, you have no
grades in high schools, but

1509
01:12:03,429 --> 01:12:06,049
then you have a really, really
high stakes university

1510
01:12:06,049 --> 01:12:07,796
entrance exam, which is not

1511
01:12:07,796 --> 01:12:09,792
necessarily the ideal solution.

1512
01:12:09,792 --> 01:12:13,035
I think the ideal solution
is that you make good

1513
01:12:13,035 --> 01:12:14,810
universities accessible
to all people.

1514
01:12:14,810 --> 01:12:17,942
Or, for example, if you make
it so that you don't need a

1515
01:12:17,942 --> 01:12:19,906
university degree to earn
a decent salary.

1516
01:12:19,906 --> 01:12:25,307
AUDIENCE: But is that ever
going to be possible?

1517
01:12:25,307 --> 01:12:27,290
PROFESSOR: Well, I always quote
Margaret Mead on that,

1518
01:12:27,290 --> 01:12:30,850
"Never underestimate the power
of a small number of people

1519
01:12:30,850 --> 01:12:31,826
[INAUDIBLE]

1520
01:12:31,826 --> 01:12:34,513
to make social change." And not
just a small number, but

1521
01:12:34,513 --> 01:12:35,280
people in general.

1522
01:12:35,280 --> 01:12:39,080
So all things that we now think
are absurd and just

1523
01:12:39,080 --> 01:12:42,170
horrible were once normal.

1524
01:12:42,170 --> 01:12:44,424
Slavery was considered
absolutely normal.

1525
01:12:44,424 --> 01:12:47,826
And in fact, the view of the
inferior races [INAUDIBLE].

1526
01:12:52,200 --> 01:12:55,125
But all these things that we
think are horrible now--

1527
01:12:55,125 --> 01:12:56,762
torture--

1528
01:12:56,762 --> 01:13:00,780
are now considered just beyond
the pale because of social

1529
01:13:00,780 --> 01:13:02,020
[INAUDIBLE].

1530
01:13:02,020 --> 01:13:07,096
So my main point here is that
these are structural,

1531
01:13:07,096 --> 01:13:08,520
fundamental, large issues.

1532
01:13:08,520 --> 01:13:12,920
And they require structural and
large society-wide changes

1533
01:13:12,920 --> 01:13:14,180
to fundamentally change them.

1534
01:13:14,180 --> 01:13:16,938
But it goes both ways.

1535
01:13:16,938 --> 01:13:21,056
The schools themselves produce
people who reinforce the

1536
01:13:21,056 --> 01:13:22,380
social structures.

1537
01:13:22,380 --> 01:13:25,632
So if people had come through
the blue eyes, brown eyes

1538
01:13:25,632 --> 01:13:27,800
experiment and they feel
themselves that they are not

1539
01:13:27,800 --> 01:13:31,590
worthy, they're less likely to
try and make a social change

1540
01:13:31,590 --> 01:13:33,750
to make a just society.

1541
01:13:33,750 --> 01:13:34,980
So it goes both ways.

1542
01:13:34,980 --> 01:13:38,090
Improving the schools and the
educational system improves

1543
01:13:38,090 --> 01:13:38,780
the society.

1544
01:13:38,780 --> 01:13:42,484
Improving the society improves
the schools.

1545
01:13:42,484 --> 01:13:44,360
AUDIENCE: I was wondering if
you could take advantage of

1546
01:13:44,360 --> 01:13:47,282
that blue-eyed, brown-eyed
thing, like to say--

1547
01:13:47,282 --> 01:13:50,490
one could say something like,
oh, people in that class

1548
01:13:50,490 --> 01:13:54,140
always did really well in their
future physics classes.

1549
01:13:54,140 --> 01:13:56,540
And then everyone could just
be like, oh, great.

1550
01:13:56,540 --> 01:13:58,940
[INAUDIBLE].

1551
01:13:58,940 --> 01:13:59,900
PROFESSOR: It's a great point.

1552
01:13:59,900 --> 01:14:01,100
So the point was, could you
take advantage of the blue

1553
01:14:01,100 --> 01:14:03,815
eyes, brown eyes experiment
to just tell people, look,

1554
01:14:03,815 --> 01:14:05,400
everyone in my physics
class does great.

1555
01:14:05,400 --> 01:14:08,760
And so just, actually,
make people do well?

1556
01:14:08,760 --> 01:14:13,560
There is actually a fair amount
of data that does work.

1557
01:14:13,560 --> 01:14:16,820
So [INAUDIBLE] wasn't phrased
in exactly that way, but the

1558
01:14:16,820 --> 01:14:19,330
example I'm thinking of
is women's colleges.

1559
01:14:19,330 --> 01:14:25,070
So a large portion of women in
science Ph.D's come from

1560
01:14:25,070 --> 01:14:26,844
all-women's colleges.

1561
01:14:26,844 --> 01:14:30,950
And I think that's partly
that effect.

1562
01:14:30,950 --> 01:14:33,810
In the regular society, women
are generally told, look,

1563
01:14:33,810 --> 01:14:36,670
[INAUDIBLE] the Barbie doll
that was taken off,

1564
01:14:36,670 --> 01:14:37,590
[INAUDIBLE]

1565
01:14:37,590 --> 01:14:40,919
Barbie doll that for a
while said, oh, math.

1566
01:14:40,919 --> 01:14:41,857
Math is hard.

1567
01:14:41,857 --> 01:14:44,671
I don't do math, or something
like that.

1568
01:14:44,671 --> 01:14:45,480
That's what it taught.

1569
01:14:45,480 --> 01:14:48,938
It's really amazing that they
thought they could do that.

1570
01:14:48,938 --> 01:14:52,149
So there was huge outcry and
they had to take it-- some

1571
01:14:52,149 --> 01:14:52,890
people did spoofs.

1572
01:14:52,890 --> 01:14:57,582
They put that as a Ken doll and
they put a big, deep voice

1573
01:14:57,582 --> 01:15:00,300
in the Barbie doll just
to play on that.

1574
01:15:00,300 --> 01:15:05,486
But that social attitude does
permeate the society.

1575
01:15:05,486 --> 01:15:08,280
And it's much less in the
all-women's colleges.

1576
01:15:08,280 --> 01:15:13,935
So places like Swarthmore, Bryn
Mawr, and Smith where

1577
01:15:13,935 --> 01:15:15,236
women are-- it's
just expected.

1578
01:15:15,236 --> 01:15:16,640
Of course you're going to
do well in science.

1579
01:15:16,640 --> 01:15:18,386
Everyone around here does
well in science.

1580
01:15:18,386 --> 01:15:20,522
It's not considered
anything special.

1581
01:15:20,522 --> 01:15:23,959
It's considered a good thing,
but it's not [INAUDIBLE]

1582
01:15:23,959 --> 01:15:24,941
to women.

1583
01:15:24,941 --> 01:15:27,396
So they already took away the
blue eyes or the brown eyes

1584
01:15:27,396 --> 01:15:28,869
and just put everyone
[INAUDIBLE].

1585
01:15:28,869 --> 01:15:33,288
So I think that is a reason
for not criticizing kids.

1586
01:15:33,288 --> 01:15:35,578
When you're raising young
children or teaching them

1587
01:15:35,578 --> 01:15:36,870
things, don't criticize them.

1588
01:15:36,870 --> 01:15:39,220
And same with grades
at a university.

1589
01:15:39,220 --> 01:15:41,907
Grades should be so the students
can figure out what

1590
01:15:41,907 --> 01:15:45,099
they need to learn more of,
but not as a way of making

1591
01:15:45,099 --> 01:15:46,580
them feel bad.

1592
01:15:46,580 --> 01:15:50,560
That's so hard to do when people
have been graded or

1593
01:15:50,560 --> 01:15:54,366
degraded for so long.

1594
01:15:54,366 --> 01:15:55,338
Question, yeah.

1595
01:15:55,338 --> 01:15:57,282
AUDIENCE: So I wanted to go
back to your earlier point

1596
01:15:57,282 --> 01:15:59,226
about competition, how it takes
it away from one place

1597
01:15:59,226 --> 01:16:00,690
and it ends up another place.

1598
01:16:00,690 --> 01:16:02,246
PROFESSOR: I don't say
it's conserved.

1599
01:16:02,246 --> 01:16:05,204
But you have to think about
the whole system.

1600
01:16:05,204 --> 01:16:07,165
Yeah, so I agree with
the question.

1601
01:16:07,165 --> 01:16:08,097
AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE].

1602
01:16:08,097 --> 01:16:11,296
Not only it doesn't scale
because of limited resources.

1603
01:16:11,296 --> 01:16:14,600
You can't keep everybody
in teacher one on one.

1604
01:16:14,600 --> 01:16:16,787
It would be great if it
took, but the system

1605
01:16:16,787 --> 01:16:17,892
won't work that way.

1606
01:16:17,892 --> 01:16:18,838
We won't have enough teachers.

1607
01:16:18,838 --> 01:16:23,095
So there's always going to be
competition for resources.

1608
01:16:23,095 --> 01:16:24,410
I just want to--

1609
01:16:24,410 --> 01:16:27,660
PROFESSOR: Well, OK, so the
question of competition.

1610
01:16:27,660 --> 01:16:32,292
So let me close with one quote,
and then I'll come to

1611
01:16:32,292 --> 01:16:32,908
your question.

1612
01:16:32,908 --> 01:16:35,363
OK, so it's a good question.

1613
01:16:35,363 --> 01:16:38,309
So to continue the rest
of what Einstein said.

1614
01:16:38,309 --> 01:16:41,500
So remember, before Einstein
said that one had to cram all

1615
01:16:41,500 --> 01:16:43,235
this stuff into one's mind,
whether one liked it or not.

1616
01:16:43,235 --> 01:16:44,420
"This [INAUDIBLE]

1617
01:16:44,420 --> 01:16:47,650
effect that after I passed the
final exam, I found the

1618
01:16:47,650 --> 01:16:48,770
consideration of any
scientific problems

1619
01:16:48,770 --> 01:16:51,685
distasteful to me for
the entire year.

1620
01:16:51,685 --> 01:16:55,315
It is, in fact, nothing short
of a miracle that the modern

1621
01:16:55,315 --> 01:16:57,800
methods of instruction have
not entirely strangled the

1622
01:16:57,800 --> 01:16:58,131
[? whole new ?]

1623
01:16:58,131 --> 01:16:59,788
curiosity required.

1624
01:16:59,788 --> 01:17:02,950
For this delicate little plant,
aside from stimulation,

1625
01:17:02,950 --> 01:17:04,020
stands mainly in need
of freedom.

1626
01:17:04,020 --> 01:17:06,880
Without this, it goes to wrack
and ruin without fail."

1627
01:17:06,880 --> 01:17:10,693
So I hope that when you're out
in the world, when you're

1628
01:17:10,693 --> 01:17:15,830
teaching and raising your
children, that you find ways

1629
01:17:15,830 --> 01:17:18,468
to make more freedom
in education.

1630
01:17:18,468 --> 01:17:21,384
So that when the students
actually that you produce

1631
01:17:21,384 --> 01:17:23,814
improve the society, and they
then, can help you improve the

1632
01:17:23,814 --> 01:17:29,160
schools and the rest of
the education system.

1633
01:17:29,160 --> 01:17:31,910
OK, your question about
competition.

1634
01:17:31,910 --> 01:17:34,120
It is a fundamental one.

1635
01:17:34,120 --> 01:17:35,410
And about competition for

1636
01:17:35,410 --> 01:17:37,912
resources, you have to really--

1637
01:17:37,912 --> 01:17:39,904
so make a radical analysis.

1638
01:17:39,904 --> 01:17:42,960
So radical in Latin
means to the root.

1639
01:17:42,960 --> 01:17:43,945
So you have to get to the
root of the problem.

1640
01:17:43,945 --> 01:17:45,690
So the root of the problem, you
can see it in the extreme

1641
01:17:45,690 --> 01:17:53,360
case of India where there are
so many people and so few

1642
01:17:53,360 --> 01:17:56,612
comfortable jobs, and the route
to the comfortable job

1643
01:17:56,612 --> 01:17:57,608
is in education.

1644
01:17:57,608 --> 01:17:59,600
That's there's intense
competition for

1645
01:17:59,600 --> 01:18:01,094
tutors and all this.

1646
01:18:01,094 --> 01:18:04,082
Not because people want to
learn, but because that's the

1647
01:18:04,082 --> 01:18:07,070
means to actually not starve
on the street.

1648
01:18:07,070 --> 01:18:11,270
So what that shows is that not
everyone wants to learn with a

1649
01:18:11,270 --> 01:18:13,080
tutor differential equations.

1650
01:18:13,080 --> 01:18:14,918
But a lot of people are
learning differential

1651
01:18:14,918 --> 01:18:17,358
equations with a tutor because
that means they'll get a

1652
01:18:17,358 --> 01:18:20,367
degree, which means they can
work in investment bank, which

1653
01:18:20,367 --> 01:18:21,750
means-- well, it used to
mean that they would be

1654
01:18:21,750 --> 01:18:23,702
comfortable.

1655
01:18:23,702 --> 01:18:26,197
So part of the issue is of
redistributing the wealth in

1656
01:18:26,197 --> 01:18:29,816
the society, so that you're
comfortable whether or not you

1657
01:18:29,816 --> 01:18:31,215
had a tutorial in differential
equations

1658
01:18:31,215 --> 01:18:33,760
or one-on-one tutorial.

1659
01:18:33,760 --> 01:18:38,390
Then, when the fears are taken
away, people are much more

1660
01:18:38,390 --> 01:18:41,330
likely to do things for
intrinsic reasons.

1661
01:18:41,330 --> 01:18:43,073
So the people who really
are interested in

1662
01:18:43,073 --> 01:18:43,820
that, then do that.

1663
01:18:43,820 --> 01:18:45,314
The people who are really
interested in teaching that

1664
01:18:45,314 --> 01:18:47,306
will teach that.

1665
01:18:47,306 --> 01:18:51,041
And you'll have a redirection
of social resources in much

1666
01:18:51,041 --> 01:18:52,784
more productive way.

1667
01:18:52,784 --> 01:18:54,776
But that requires, for example,
the value of, say,

1668
01:18:54,776 --> 01:18:55,970
guaranteed income, guaranteed
health care.

1669
01:18:55,970 --> 01:18:59,869
Maybe even guaranteed basic
schooling for everyone, so

1670
01:18:59,869 --> 01:19:03,074
that those things are features
of competition.

1671
01:19:03,074 --> 01:19:03,567
Yeah.

1672
01:19:03,567 --> 01:19:06,032
AUDIENCE: But the system based
on competition is quite

1673
01:19:06,032 --> 01:19:09,483
self-regulating, right?

1674
01:19:09,483 --> 01:19:10,490
PROFESSOR: I don't
know about that.

1675
01:19:10,490 --> 01:19:12,090
So a good example-- is the
system based on competition

1676
01:19:12,090 --> 01:19:12,880
self-regulating?

1677
01:19:12,880 --> 01:19:14,190
I'm not sure about that.

1678
01:19:14,190 --> 01:19:16,966
I mean, the mortgage derivative
market is a great

1679
01:19:16,966 --> 01:19:20,223
example that-- actually, what
happened was-- you can think

1680
01:19:20,223 --> 01:19:22,410
of it in electrical
engineering terms.

1681
01:19:25,290 --> 01:19:26,540
You had--

1682
01:19:29,130 --> 01:19:31,430
let's do it under
continuous time.

1683
01:19:34,846 --> 01:19:38,262
So you had some sort of slow,
pokey banking system with

1684
01:19:38,262 --> 01:19:42,166
feedback loops and the poles
were [INAUDIBLE].

1685
01:19:45,100 --> 01:19:47,100
[INAUDIBLE], nice
decay constant.

1686
01:19:47,100 --> 01:19:50,870
And then, the competition to
make more money quickly--

1687
01:19:50,870 --> 01:19:53,987
well, one way to make more
money was to trade

1688
01:19:53,987 --> 01:19:55,424
[INAUDIBLE].

1689
01:19:55,424 --> 01:19:56,382
What did that do?

1690
01:19:56,382 --> 01:19:59,735
It increased the gaming of
feedback loops and [INAUDIBLE]

1691
01:19:59,735 --> 01:20:01,172
the poles this way.

1692
01:20:01,172 --> 01:20:02,780
And eventually, some of the
poles crossed the axis and you

1693
01:20:02,780 --> 01:20:06,932
got huge nonlinear oscillations,
which grew to--

1694
01:20:06,932 --> 01:20:10,313
huge oscillations grew to
nonlinear [INAUDIBLE] and

1695
01:20:10,313 --> 01:20:12,728
broke a whole bunch of the
world banking system.

1696
01:20:12,728 --> 01:20:14,670
So it's actually not necessarily
true that

1697
01:20:14,670 --> 01:20:17,460
competition is self-regulating,
because there

1698
01:20:17,460 --> 01:20:20,057
are all these nonlinearities
and feedbacks and delays in

1699
01:20:20,057 --> 01:20:23,640
the system, there's no
guarantee of that.

1700
01:20:23,640 --> 01:20:27,000
And one of the harms of the
competition is it puts people

1701
01:20:27,000 --> 01:20:28,440
against each other.

1702
01:20:28,440 --> 01:20:31,606
And what'd you much rather
have is people working

1703
01:20:31,606 --> 01:20:34,498
together and helping
each other.

1704
01:20:34,498 --> 01:20:38,354
Because as studies quoted by
[INAUDIBLE] showed, that

1705
01:20:38,354 --> 01:20:40,764
actually-- if you want it to go
a high level, [INAUDIBLE].

1706
01:20:40,764 --> 01:20:41,728
That's how it happens.

1707
01:20:41,728 --> 01:20:45,319
Not through competition and
dog-eat-dog, but people

1708
01:20:45,319 --> 01:20:47,814
cooperating and sharing
knowledge.

1709
01:20:47,814 --> 01:20:50,808
And what we wanted to do, I
would say in our educational

1710
01:20:50,808 --> 01:20:54,800
system, is shift it more towards
there and free people

1711
01:20:54,800 --> 01:20:56,580
[INAUDIBLE] for creating
the [INAUDIBLE].

1712
01:20:56,580 --> 01:20:57,830
Instead of [INAUDIBLE].

1713
01:21:00,939 --> 01:21:03,617
AUDIENCE: So we don't determine
the pay of different

1714
01:21:03,617 --> 01:21:05,322
people in the society
based on the

1715
01:21:05,322 --> 01:21:06,783
competition, what do you propose?

1716
01:21:06,783 --> 01:21:09,705
Do you propose that somebody
else decides [INAUDIBLE]?

1717
01:21:12,650 --> 01:21:14,800
PROFESSOR: Well, we already
have all kinds of ways.

1718
01:21:14,800 --> 01:21:16,622
I mean, you can have
regulations.

1719
01:21:16,622 --> 01:21:17,382
You could, for example.

1720
01:21:17,382 --> 01:21:20,150
Say, I mean, income tax is a
social way of deciding what's

1721
01:21:20,150 --> 01:21:21,426
worthwhile and what's not.

1722
01:21:21,426 --> 01:21:27,138
You could say, OK, we're going
to tax peoples' income the

1723
01:21:27,138 --> 01:21:28,629
99%, beyond 200,000.

1724
01:21:28,629 --> 01:21:29,623
[INAUDIBLE].

1725
01:21:29,623 --> 01:21:33,020
And we're going to use that
money to pay teachers more.

1726
01:21:33,020 --> 01:21:36,210
That's a social choice because
saying the teachers'

1727
01:21:36,210 --> 01:21:37,755
salaries are this.

1728
01:21:37,755 --> 01:21:40,896
If you think it's a worthwhile
thing to do we could say look,

1729
01:21:40,896 --> 01:21:43,356
we think bridge building
is really important it

1730
01:21:43,356 --> 01:21:44,832
revitalizes the [INAUDIBLE].

1731
01:21:44,832 --> 01:21:46,659
We're going to pay people
to do that.

1732
01:21:46,659 --> 01:21:49,260
Those are social choices,
just like anything.

1733
01:21:49,260 --> 01:21:51,228
It doesn't have to
be permissive.

1734
01:21:51,228 --> 01:21:52,212
All right?

1735
01:21:52,212 --> 01:21:53,688
So we can change our educational
system that way.

1736
01:21:53,688 --> 01:21:59,108
The barrier to it is that our
thoughts are limited by the

1737
01:21:59,108 --> 01:22:00,170
educational system that
we went through.

1738
01:22:00,170 --> 01:22:04,440
So in one way that's bad news,
because there was this giant

1739
01:22:04,440 --> 01:22:06,650
feedback loop keeping things
the way they are.

1740
01:22:06,650 --> 01:22:10,922
On the other hand, because
there's a feedback loop, the

1741
01:22:10,922 --> 01:22:14,725
educational system affects the
society and vice versa.

1742
01:22:14,725 --> 01:22:17,136
Well, it means you can work
anywhere on the feedback loop

1743
01:22:17,136 --> 01:22:19,040
you want that you think
is interesting.

1744
01:22:19,040 --> 01:22:20,944
You could try to improve
the society directly.

1745
01:22:20,944 --> 01:22:22,850
You could try to improve the
educational system in

1746
01:22:22,850 --> 01:22:24,236
[INAUDIBLE].

1747
01:22:24,236 --> 01:22:27,105
You can try to skip the feedback
wherever you see it.

1748
01:22:27,105 --> 01:22:28,543
Insert something good in here.

1749
01:22:28,543 --> 01:22:34,459
And you improve things for
everybody that way.

1750
01:22:34,459 --> 01:22:38,403
OK, so if you could fill
out the question sheet.

1751
01:22:38,403 --> 01:22:41,361
[INAUDIBLE]

1752
01:22:41,361 --> 01:22:43,333
put on the website
who [INAUDIBLE]

1753
01:22:46,291 --> 01:22:49,742
as well as referenced
[INAUDIBLE].

1754
01:22:49,742 --> 01:22:55,104
And next time we'll have a
summary of all of the second

1755
01:22:55,104 --> 01:22:56,354
[INAUDIBLE]

1756
01:23:03,056 --> 01:23:06,535
as well as questions from you.

1757
01:23:06,535 --> 01:23:09,943
Because I know I have a few
questions that I have to

1758
01:23:09,943 --> 01:23:13,493
answer plus [INAUDIBLE].

1759
01:23:13,493 --> 01:23:15,978
So we'll try to answer all your
questions [INAUDIBLE].

1760
01:23:21,600 --> 01:23:23,880
Answers from lecture
10 to questions

1761
01:23:23,880 --> 01:23:25,400
generated in lecture 9.

1762
01:23:28,352 --> 01:23:32,510
PROFESSOR: OK, lots of questions
from last time.

1763
01:23:32,510 --> 01:23:35,620
So I won't answer all of them
because otherwise we'll

1764
01:23:35,620 --> 01:23:37,600
probably spend the entire
time just on the

1765
01:23:37,600 --> 01:23:39,620
questions from last time.

1766
01:23:39,620 --> 01:23:43,980
Which maybe I should have
anticipated since it's a

1767
01:23:43,980 --> 01:23:48,800
central topic and one that
connects to not just

1768
01:23:48,800 --> 01:23:51,860
education, but directly to
society, the topic on

1769
01:23:51,860 --> 01:23:53,550
political barriers to
educational change.

1770
01:23:53,550 --> 01:23:55,040
So I'll answer some of those.

1771
01:23:55,040 --> 01:23:59,060
But then I wanted to also give
you a chance to ask any

1772
01:23:59,060 --> 01:24:01,670
questions that have been
unresolved that have come up

1773
01:24:01,670 --> 01:24:05,040
in your teaching or that
you think might

1774
01:24:05,040 --> 01:24:06,490
come up in your teaching.

1775
01:24:06,490 --> 01:24:09,820
One of my old teachers, Don
[? Knuth, ?] always reserved

1776
01:24:09,820 --> 01:24:12,520
the last session for
student questions.

1777
01:24:12,520 --> 01:24:16,080
And I think it's a really good
philosophy to tie everything

1778
01:24:16,080 --> 01:24:18,170
together, tie all the
loose ends up.

1779
01:24:18,170 --> 01:24:21,590
So I call it your turn.

1780
01:24:21,590 --> 01:24:24,680
OK, but part of your turn was
answering some of your

1781
01:24:24,680 --> 01:24:27,720
questions from before.

1782
01:24:27,720 --> 01:24:31,680
Is social education
a bad thing?

1783
01:24:31,680 --> 01:24:33,880
And so the comment was, I'm
still not convinced social

1784
01:24:33,880 --> 01:24:35,130
education is a bad thing.

1785
01:24:37,700 --> 01:24:40,010
Obviously it gives a lot of
control to whoever gets to

1786
01:24:40,010 --> 01:24:43,160
make the decision of what
constitutes a good citizen.

1787
01:24:43,160 --> 01:24:46,620
But some of the social agendas
in public schooling were good.

1788
01:24:46,620 --> 01:24:49,470
For example, diversity,
recycling.

1789
01:24:49,470 --> 01:24:50,780
And that's true.

1790
01:24:50,780 --> 01:24:54,660
So I don't want to be
misinterpreted as saying

1791
01:24:54,660 --> 01:24:56,200
society is a bad thing.

1792
01:24:56,200 --> 01:24:59,480
I think society naturally
educates people.

1793
01:24:59,480 --> 01:25:02,230
You pick up your values from
people around you.

1794
01:25:02,230 --> 01:25:05,810
Your parents give you
ethical norms.

1795
01:25:05,810 --> 01:25:07,440
Schools give you
ethical norms.

1796
01:25:07,440 --> 01:25:10,400
And I think it's exactly what
the question said, it said who

1797
01:25:10,400 --> 01:25:11,690
gets to decide?

1798
01:25:11,690 --> 01:25:16,780
Is it some group of elites who
decide or is it the whole

1799
01:25:16,780 --> 01:25:21,190
society collectively deciding
what is good for everybody.

1800
01:25:21,190 --> 01:25:24,100
And what's good for everybody
may not be one thing.

1801
01:25:24,100 --> 01:25:27,240
It may be the decision is well,
different people need or

1802
01:25:27,240 --> 01:25:28,210
want different things.

1803
01:25:28,210 --> 01:25:31,270
And we think a good society is
based on the idea that people

1804
01:25:31,270 --> 01:25:33,710
have freedom to follow
their interests.

1805
01:25:33,710 --> 01:25:38,480
And also, some required work
that everyone need to learn,

1806
01:25:38,480 --> 01:25:39,940
for example, reading.

1807
01:25:39,940 --> 01:25:42,090
But then what you read
may be up to you.

1808
01:25:42,090 --> 01:25:45,160
So yeah, I don't think all
social education is a bad

1809
01:25:45,160 --> 01:25:45,590
thing at all.

1810
01:25:45,590 --> 01:25:47,230
I think all education
is social.

1811
01:25:47,230 --> 01:25:49,140
There's no way to avoid that.

1812
01:25:49,140 --> 01:25:51,770
Inherently we're
social animals.

1813
01:25:51,770 --> 01:25:55,180
And it's the question of what's
in that education?

1814
01:25:55,180 --> 01:25:57,220
And it's the same
thing, political

1815
01:25:57,220 --> 01:25:59,070
barriers educational change.

1816
01:25:59,070 --> 01:26:01,700
It's not that politics is
inherently a bad thing.

1817
01:26:01,700 --> 01:26:04,530
The question is, what kind
of politics do we have?

1818
01:26:04,530 --> 01:26:08,390
And how can we make that
better and more humane?

1819
01:26:08,390 --> 01:26:12,200
So for example, I think
recycling is a good example of

1820
01:26:12,200 --> 01:26:15,360
making things more humane.

1821
01:26:15,360 --> 01:26:18,490
OK, if competition demotivates
some people does it motivate

1822
01:26:18,490 --> 01:26:19,610
other people?

1823
01:26:19,610 --> 01:26:23,990
Does eliminating competition
reduce maximum performance?

1824
01:26:23,990 --> 01:26:26,900
Other than the studies referred
to by Alfie Kohn, I'm

1825
01:26:26,900 --> 01:26:29,660
not sure if the answer
to that is known.

1826
01:26:29,660 --> 01:26:34,610
I mean, there's certainly
studies on how, for example,

1827
01:26:34,610 --> 01:26:37,260
competition leads to
a lot of waste.

1828
01:26:37,260 --> 01:26:41,070
The classic example in economics
is suppose you--

1829
01:26:41,070 --> 01:26:44,040
and this was actually
a real example--

1830
01:26:44,040 --> 01:26:48,240
give people 160 acres
of land--

1831
01:26:48,240 --> 01:26:52,210
I think that was the a 1/4
plot-- or 640 acres of land

1832
01:26:52,210 --> 01:26:53,660
way out in the west.

1833
01:26:53,660 --> 01:26:58,140
And the rule is whoever gets
there first gets to claim that

1834
01:26:58,140 --> 01:26:59,680
piece of land.

1835
01:26:59,680 --> 01:27:03,610
And you get there and you stick
posts up and you put a

1836
01:27:03,610 --> 01:27:04,070
fence there.

1837
01:27:04,070 --> 01:27:06,270
That's roughly how the
Homestead Act worked.

1838
01:27:06,270 --> 01:27:08,460
Well, the problem with
that is that it does

1839
01:27:08,460 --> 01:27:09,480
cause a lot of waste.

1840
01:27:09,480 --> 01:27:14,080
Which is that tons of people
might run out and

1841
01:27:14,080 --> 01:27:15,490
chase after that land.

1842
01:27:15,490 --> 01:27:18,500
And make a whole bunch of effort
buying train tickets,

1843
01:27:18,500 --> 01:27:20,970
go on a wagon with their
whole family out west.

1844
01:27:20,970 --> 01:27:22,750
But only one person
gets the land.

1845
01:27:22,750 --> 01:27:24,710
So a whole bunch of people
actually put in a lot of

1846
01:27:24,710 --> 01:27:25,780
wasted effort.

1847
01:27:25,780 --> 01:27:28,970
So that's a classic example
of how competition

1848
01:27:28,970 --> 01:27:30,530
can be quite wasteful.

1849
01:27:30,530 --> 01:27:32,280
Other examples, where exclusive

1850
01:27:32,280 --> 01:27:34,110
rights do that, or patents.

1851
01:27:34,110 --> 01:27:38,850
So as is the case, a patent's
only given to one person--

1852
01:27:38,850 --> 01:27:41,000
or the inventor--

1853
01:27:41,000 --> 01:27:43,420
and you have 15 people
or 30 people

1854
01:27:43,420 --> 01:27:44,610
trying to invent something.

1855
01:27:44,610 --> 01:27:47,450
So the more the competition, in
this case, the more waste

1856
01:27:47,450 --> 01:27:48,230
is going to happen.

1857
01:27:48,230 --> 01:27:50,560
Because all these people are
going to invest funds.

1858
01:27:50,560 --> 01:27:53,420
But only one person is going
to get the exclusive right.

1859
01:27:53,420 --> 01:27:56,970
And the other people are
just left high and dry.

1860
01:27:56,970 --> 01:28:01,850
So there's many examples where
eliminating competition will

1861
01:28:01,850 --> 01:28:06,540
actually increase the amount of
social wealth contributed

1862
01:28:06,540 --> 01:28:07,910
towards useful ends.

1863
01:28:07,910 --> 01:28:11,090
But to the direct question of
whether it reduces maximum

1864
01:28:11,090 --> 01:28:14,120
forms, I don't know
if that's known.

1865
01:28:14,120 --> 01:28:18,670
The studies in Alfie Kohn's
article pointed to how

1866
01:28:18,670 --> 01:28:22,120
competition reduces high-level
performance.

1867
01:28:22,120 --> 01:28:25,320
For example, complex
cognitive tasks.

1868
01:28:25,320 --> 01:28:28,480
Maximum performance, probably,
one would need to define that

1869
01:28:28,480 --> 01:28:29,150
pretty closely.

1870
01:28:29,150 --> 01:28:32,735
And then one could
do studies on it.

1871
01:28:32,735 --> 01:28:37,000
OK, so there was an interesting
question about the

1872
01:28:37,000 --> 01:28:38,470
understanding multiplication.

1873
01:28:38,470 --> 01:28:40,850
So the understanding
multiplication example I gave,

1874
01:28:40,850 --> 01:28:44,650
where people could multiply
6 by 3 and get 18 but then

1875
01:28:44,650 --> 01:28:48,590
couldn't come up with a word
problem that used 6 by 3.

1876
01:28:48,590 --> 01:28:51,620
Or they could, but the word
problem was Johnny buys 6

1877
01:28:51,620 --> 01:28:52,950
apples on Monday.

1878
01:28:52,950 --> 01:28:54,530
He buys 3 apples on Tuesday.

1879
01:28:54,530 --> 01:28:56,810
So 6 times 3 is 18.

1880
01:28:56,810 --> 01:29:00,680
So that was, maybe, a bit
unfair to ask students.

1881
01:29:00,680 --> 01:29:05,900
Because writing a story draws on
skills beyond mathematical

1882
01:29:05,900 --> 01:29:09,260
understanding such as
imagination and language.

1883
01:29:09,260 --> 01:29:12,260
So it's true, it does draw
on those skills.

1884
01:29:12,260 --> 01:29:14,360
But I don't think those are
separate from mathematical

1885
01:29:14,360 --> 01:29:14,940
understanding.

1886
01:29:14,940 --> 01:29:19,210
If you can't explain the
mathematics that you in you,

1887
01:29:19,210 --> 01:29:21,540
you don't really
understand it.

1888
01:29:21,540 --> 01:29:25,360
When I was an undergraduate a
friend of mine and I used to

1889
01:29:25,360 --> 01:29:27,070
torment the math
grad students.

1890
01:29:27,070 --> 01:29:28,400
It was sort of unfair.

1891
01:29:28,400 --> 01:29:29,990
And we were really curious
about math.

1892
01:29:29,990 --> 01:29:31,300
We were fascinated by math.

1893
01:29:31,300 --> 01:29:33,660
And we wanted to know what
people do in graduate school.

1894
01:29:33,660 --> 01:29:35,390
And only later did
I realize we were

1895
01:29:35,390 --> 01:29:36,230
actually tormenting them.

1896
01:29:36,230 --> 01:29:37,240
We weren't doing it
intentionally.

1897
01:29:37,240 --> 01:29:40,030
We would ask them, OK, what
are you working on?

1898
01:29:40,030 --> 01:29:42,090
Sometimes we had classes with
them or we'd see them in the

1899
01:29:42,090 --> 01:29:42,970
math lounge.

1900
01:29:42,970 --> 01:29:46,920
And they would say, oh, blah,
blah, the theorem.

1901
01:29:46,920 --> 01:29:49,130
And we were undergraduates
and young.

1902
01:29:49,130 --> 01:29:50,480
And we didn't really know
what the theorem was.

1903
01:29:50,480 --> 01:29:53,650
So we'd say, well, can you
give us an example?

1904
01:29:53,650 --> 01:29:56,780
And that produced just deer
in the headlights.

1905
01:29:56,780 --> 01:29:58,230
Example?

1906
01:29:58,230 --> 01:29:59,430
Example?

1907
01:29:59,430 --> 01:30:02,390
That was completely foreign and
not at all what they were

1908
01:30:02,390 --> 01:30:02,930
thinking about.

1909
01:30:02,930 --> 01:30:04,800
It was completely out
of their space.

1910
01:30:04,800 --> 01:30:08,750
And later I actually realized
that that was actually a very

1911
01:30:08,750 --> 01:30:09,840
fair question.

1912
01:30:09,840 --> 01:30:12,350
And if you wanted to test
whether people understood what

1913
01:30:12,350 --> 01:30:13,680
they were working on.

1914
01:30:13,680 --> 01:30:16,530
And I found that things I can
give examples on I understand.

1915
01:30:16,530 --> 01:30:19,060
The things I can't, I
don't understand.

1916
01:30:19,060 --> 01:30:21,510
Another example that
is Feynman.

1917
01:30:21,510 --> 01:30:25,120
He said, I have always found
that I don't understand

1918
01:30:25,120 --> 01:30:28,630
anything unless I can give
a freshman lecture on it.

1919
01:30:28,630 --> 01:30:31,470
Or equivalently, people
asked him to give

1920
01:30:31,470 --> 01:30:32,260
a lecture on something.

1921
01:30:32,260 --> 01:30:34,580
He said, no, I don't
understand.

1922
01:30:34,580 --> 01:30:36,030
I don't understand
that well enough.

1923
01:30:36,030 --> 01:30:37,920
I'll have to first work out
a freshman lecture on it.

1924
01:30:37,920 --> 01:30:39,390
Then I can explain it better.

1925
01:30:39,390 --> 01:30:43,080
And so there's famous lectures
of his where he's explained

1926
01:30:43,080 --> 01:30:45,340
anti particles and spin.

1927
01:30:45,340 --> 01:30:47,850
And he finally got it to a level
where he thinks it was

1928
01:30:47,850 --> 01:30:50,260
actually suitable for a
freshman, so first-year

1929
01:30:50,260 --> 01:30:51,050
college students.

1930
01:30:51,050 --> 01:30:52,720
So it's a brilliant lecture.

1931
01:30:52,720 --> 01:30:56,130
If you search for the Dirac
Memorial Lectures by Feynman

1932
01:30:56,130 --> 01:30:57,180
you'll find that
lecture there.

1933
01:30:57,180 --> 01:30:58,230
And it's fascinating.

1934
01:30:58,230 --> 01:31:01,660
So it shows the level of how
hard work it is to actually

1935
01:31:01,660 --> 01:31:02,840
understand something
of that level.

1936
01:31:02,840 --> 01:31:07,090
And almost essential to that
process is examples.

1937
01:31:07,090 --> 01:31:09,510
So examples, explaining,
understanding, I think those

1938
01:31:09,510 --> 01:31:11,280
are intrinsic to mathematical
understanding.

1939
01:31:11,280 --> 01:31:13,520
So it wasn't an unfair test.

1940
01:31:13,520 --> 01:31:16,010
It was actually a test of
high-level mathematical

1941
01:31:16,010 --> 01:31:17,260
understanding.

1942
01:31:19,060 --> 01:31:21,450
One point was made, Swarthmore
was not a women's college.

1943
01:31:21,450 --> 01:31:22,010
Yeah, that's true.

1944
01:31:22,010 --> 01:31:27,980
I mentioned that women's
colleges were much more

1945
01:31:27,980 --> 01:31:31,560
successful in producing women
Ph.D. students in science.

1946
01:31:31,560 --> 01:31:33,970
And I listed Bryn
Mawr and Smith.

1947
01:31:33,970 --> 01:31:36,060
And then I listed Swarthmore,
which was not correct.

1948
01:31:36,060 --> 01:31:38,890
That was crosstalk between Bryn
Mawr is and Swarthmore.

1949
01:31:38,890 --> 01:31:40,630
I grouped them all, Bryn
Mawr, Haverford,

1950
01:31:40,630 --> 01:31:41,850
and Swarthmore together.

1951
01:31:41,850 --> 01:31:44,510
So Swarthmore is a coeducational
college.

1952
01:31:44,510 --> 01:31:47,900
And I meant Bryn
Mawr and Smith.

1953
01:31:47,900 --> 01:31:50,490
And I was thinking of
Wellesley as well.

1954
01:31:50,490 --> 01:31:53,050
So Wellesley is an all-women's
college, unless they've

1955
01:31:53,050 --> 01:31:53,940
changed lately?

1956
01:31:53,940 --> 01:31:54,770
No, OK.

1957
01:31:54,770 --> 01:31:58,800
I mean every once in a while
colleges think of changing.

1958
01:31:58,800 --> 01:32:01,590
But they're still all women.

1959
01:32:01,590 --> 01:32:03,490
Now, people asked for references
and further

1960
01:32:03,490 --> 01:32:04,910
information about that.

1961
01:32:04,910 --> 01:32:09,360
So I'll put a link
on the website.

1962
01:32:09,360 --> 01:32:13,370
But it's Barbara Whitten at the
Colorado College physics

1963
01:32:13,370 --> 01:32:16,450
department, she's done the most
extensive studies on not

1964
01:32:16,450 --> 01:32:22,810
just what makes for women being
successful in science,

1965
01:32:22,810 --> 01:32:25,110
but in general, what makes
for students in

1966
01:32:25,110 --> 01:32:25,910
say, physics majors.

1967
01:32:25,910 --> 01:32:30,000
She was the chair of the
Colorado College physics

1968
01:32:30,000 --> 01:32:31,940
department when I interviewed
there.

1969
01:32:31,940 --> 01:32:35,230
What makes for a successful
undergraduate major program?

1970
01:32:35,230 --> 01:32:38,070
So this is quite interesting
for people

1971
01:32:38,070 --> 01:32:38,860
interested in teaching.

1972
01:32:38,860 --> 01:32:41,550
Not just revising one course,
but revising an entire

1973
01:32:41,550 --> 01:32:43,040
department curriculum.

1974
01:32:43,040 --> 01:32:46,290
So she's done
cross-institutional studies of

1975
01:32:46,290 --> 01:32:50,630
the culture of departments and
what facets of the culture are

1976
01:32:50,630 --> 01:32:53,810
responsible for students
continuing on in science.

1977
01:32:53,810 --> 01:32:58,810
And what she's found is that
the same features that help

1978
01:32:58,810 --> 01:33:01,760
women continue in science
help everybody.

1979
01:33:01,760 --> 01:33:04,960
So I highly recommend
her work.

1980
01:33:04,960 --> 01:33:09,710
And I'll put a link to her web
page on our course web page.

1981
01:33:09,710 --> 01:33:11,120
Barbara Whitten.

1982
01:33:11,120 --> 01:33:17,080
I think it's W-I-T-T-E-N. But it
might be W-H-I-T-T-E-N, the

1983
01:33:17,080 --> 01:33:18,670
Colorado College physics
department.

1984
01:33:23,230 --> 01:33:31,670
OK, it's clear that I don't
like No Child Left Behind.

1985
01:33:31,670 --> 01:33:33,310
But would I do if I were
the Secretary of

1986
01:33:33,310 --> 01:33:34,885
Education in this country?

1987
01:33:34,885 --> 01:33:36,920
Yeah, well, Hell would probably
freeze over before

1988
01:33:36,920 --> 01:33:39,830
that happened.

1989
01:33:39,830 --> 01:33:43,580
There's a long vetting process
before people become that.

1990
01:33:43,580 --> 01:33:46,290
And you have to show your
loyalty to pretty much every

1991
01:33:46,290 --> 01:33:49,920
aspect of the current system
before that happens, before

1992
01:33:49,920 --> 01:33:51,590
you're appointed
to such a post.

1993
01:33:51,590 --> 01:33:55,960
But if Hell froze over
what would I do?

1994
01:33:55,960 --> 01:34:00,670
I think one of the fundamental
problems with education in

1995
01:34:00,670 --> 01:34:03,390
America is the vast
inequalities

1996
01:34:03,390 --> 01:34:06,590
in funding, in resources.

1997
01:34:06,590 --> 01:34:09,560
So the wealthy school districts
have two, three,

1998
01:34:09,560 --> 01:34:12,310
four times as much funds
per student as

1999
01:34:12,310 --> 01:34:13,560
the poor school districts.

2000
01:34:16,640 --> 01:34:18,840
And there's a good
part of that.

2001
01:34:18,840 --> 01:34:20,540
I mean, the disparity is bad.

2002
01:34:20,540 --> 01:34:23,250
But there's a reason
for the disparity.

2003
01:34:23,250 --> 01:34:24,420
And the reason isn't all bad.

2004
01:34:24,420 --> 01:34:29,740
The reason is that America
education is a local affair.

2005
01:34:29,740 --> 01:34:31,860
It's controlled by local
authorities.

2006
01:34:31,860 --> 01:34:36,570
So the constitution reserves
a bunch of powers for the

2007
01:34:36,570 --> 01:34:40,030
federal government, printing
money, making war, various

2008
01:34:40,030 --> 01:34:41,550
things like that.

2009
01:34:41,550 --> 01:34:46,650
Then it says, OK, then the
states can do a bunch of stuff

2010
01:34:46,650 --> 01:34:49,150
like, for example,
regulate voting.

2011
01:34:49,150 --> 01:34:53,410
And then it says anything not
explicitly given to the

2012
01:34:53,410 --> 01:34:56,870
national or state governments
is given to the people.

2013
01:34:56,870 --> 01:35:04,300
Or in fact I think it says--
this is the 10th or 11th

2014
01:35:04,300 --> 01:35:05,270
commandment--

2015
01:35:05,270 --> 01:35:06,210
especially devolution.

2016
01:35:06,210 --> 01:35:08,420
It says any powers not given to
the federal government go

2017
01:35:08,420 --> 01:35:09,220
to the state.

2018
01:35:09,220 --> 01:35:10,210
If they're given to the state.

2019
01:35:10,210 --> 01:35:13,810
And if not given to the state
they go to the people.

2020
01:35:13,810 --> 01:35:16,500
And so education is
in that category.

2021
01:35:16,500 --> 01:35:19,390
It's nowhere mentioned in the
constitution, education.

2022
01:35:19,390 --> 01:35:21,390
So it's not given
to the states.

2023
01:35:21,390 --> 01:35:22,660
It's not given to the
federal government.

2024
01:35:22,660 --> 01:35:25,710
So in America it's given to
the local authorities.

2025
01:35:25,710 --> 01:35:27,980
Now the problem is that
different communities have

2026
01:35:27,980 --> 01:35:29,410
different wealth bases.

2027
01:35:29,410 --> 01:35:31,010
Because there's some
very rich suburbs.

2028
01:35:31,010 --> 01:35:33,280
And for a while the cities
were wealthy.

2029
01:35:33,280 --> 01:35:34,400
But then people fled.

2030
01:35:34,400 --> 01:35:37,560
All the wealthy people fled the
cities in the 1950s during

2031
01:35:37,560 --> 01:35:37,960
suburbanization.

2032
01:35:37,960 --> 01:35:41,360
So the centers of cities
became very poor.

2033
01:35:41,360 --> 01:35:44,270
So there's vast disparities
in wealth there.

2034
01:35:44,270 --> 01:35:47,160
And I think one thing that the
federal government could do is

2035
01:35:47,160 --> 01:35:48,900
actually just correct those.

2036
01:35:48,900 --> 01:35:53,220
So there've been lawsuits along
those lines for forcing

2037
01:35:53,220 --> 01:35:56,660
state governments to try to
correct that because there is

2038
01:35:56,660 --> 01:35:59,390
some role for the states
in education.

2039
01:35:59,390 --> 01:36:01,610
I'm not sure where that comes
from in the constitution.

2040
01:36:01,610 --> 01:36:04,180
But there are state boards
of education.

2041
01:36:04,180 --> 01:36:06,790
And I think it's Vermont and
New Jersey, there've been

2042
01:36:06,790 --> 01:36:10,210
lawsuits in state courts to
force the states to equalize

2043
01:36:10,210 --> 01:36:12,430
funding across school
districts.

2044
01:36:12,430 --> 01:36:14,510
So somehow mitigating
the differential in

2045
01:36:14,510 --> 01:36:16,170
property-tax revenues.

2046
01:36:16,170 --> 01:36:17,460
And I think the federal
government

2047
01:36:17,460 --> 01:36:18,580
could do that as well.

2048
01:36:18,580 --> 01:36:20,430
So those lawsuits
are based on--

2049
01:36:20,430 --> 01:36:23,910
I'm pretty sure-- the 14th
Amendment, equal

2050
01:36:23,910 --> 01:36:25,560
protection of the laws.

2051
01:36:25,560 --> 01:36:28,020
Now, there's no reason the
federal government couldn't do

2052
01:36:28,020 --> 01:36:28,570
that as well.

2053
01:36:28,570 --> 01:36:30,400
So I would do that as
step number one.

2054
01:36:30,400 --> 01:36:32,650
No strings attached,
here, let's just

2055
01:36:32,650 --> 01:36:33,950
equalize the resources.

2056
01:36:33,950 --> 01:36:36,150
And then we can worry
about what we're

2057
01:36:36,150 --> 01:36:37,190
going to do after that.

2058
01:36:37,190 --> 01:36:40,880
Whereas No Child Left Behind,
what it does, it makes the

2059
01:36:40,880 --> 01:36:42,800
resources actually,
more unequal.

2060
01:36:42,800 --> 01:36:45,300
Because it tests all
the schools.

2061
01:36:45,300 --> 01:36:48,040
And the schools that are going
to do badly are the ones with

2062
01:36:48,040 --> 01:36:48,880
less resources.

2063
01:36:48,880 --> 01:36:52,330
And then they're going to get
punished for doing badly.

2064
01:36:52,330 --> 01:36:54,930
So I would take the
opposite approach.

2065
01:36:54,930 --> 01:36:56,940
Is there a particular country's
educational system

2066
01:36:56,940 --> 01:36:58,320
that I particularly admire?

2067
01:36:58,320 --> 01:37:01,130
That's a good question.

2068
01:37:01,130 --> 01:37:02,670
Again, I think it's local.

2069
01:37:02,670 --> 01:37:05,480
There's local educational
experiments that I admire a

2070
01:37:05,480 --> 01:37:07,840
lot and occasionally
larger-scale ones.

2071
01:37:07,840 --> 01:37:10,430
A whole country, not so much.

2072
01:37:10,430 --> 01:37:12,350
I mean, there's states
in India, for

2073
01:37:12,350 --> 01:37:14,250
example, for awhile Kerala--

2074
01:37:14,250 --> 01:37:16,620
I don't know if this is still
true-- but had an incredibly

2075
01:37:16,620 --> 01:37:21,430
high literacy rate, I think
98%, Which was much higher

2076
01:37:21,430 --> 01:37:23,330
than anywhere else in India
and matches literacy

2077
01:37:23,330 --> 01:37:25,480
levels in the West.

2078
01:37:25,480 --> 01:37:27,370
And this has many benefits.

2079
01:37:27,370 --> 01:37:31,460
So for example, one study
about population is that

2080
01:37:31,460 --> 01:37:34,390
population growth is slowed
down the most

2081
01:37:34,390 --> 01:37:36,500
by educating women.

2082
01:37:36,500 --> 01:37:41,160
And Kerala actually, that 98%
included women not just men.

2083
01:37:41,160 --> 01:37:43,940
So I think that's an educational
system worth

2084
01:37:43,940 --> 01:37:44,930
looking into.

2085
01:37:44,930 --> 01:37:48,980
And places that I admire,
there are local pockets.

2086
01:37:48,980 --> 01:37:51,140
The free schools in the 1960s.

2087
01:37:51,140 --> 01:37:55,250
There's a few places like
that still in America.

2088
01:37:55,250 --> 01:37:57,920
There's the Sudbury
Valley School.

2089
01:37:57,920 --> 01:37:59,990
Maybe it's 50 miles
west of here.

2090
01:37:59,990 --> 01:38:02,600
It's in the Sudbury Valley.

2091
01:38:02,600 --> 01:38:05,560
And that's modeled on
Summerhill, one of the

2092
01:38:05,560 --> 01:38:08,160
earliest free schools
in England.

2093
01:38:08,160 --> 01:38:10,980
So actually, it has
its good and bad.

2094
01:38:10,980 --> 01:38:13,550
So Summerhill, there's
no required classes.

2095
01:38:13,550 --> 01:38:15,650
And there's no required
curriculum.

2096
01:38:15,650 --> 01:38:18,430
And the students can
go to class or not

2097
01:38:18,430 --> 01:38:20,550
and can play outside.

2098
01:38:20,550 --> 01:38:22,550
So that would work
really well.

2099
01:38:22,550 --> 01:38:23,970
I think that works really
well if all the

2100
01:38:23,970 --> 01:38:27,080
teachers are really inspiring.

2101
01:38:27,080 --> 01:38:28,650
Because then the students would
be automatically drawn

2102
01:38:28,650 --> 01:38:30,550
in to learn stuff.

2103
01:38:30,550 --> 01:38:32,550
But if the teachers aren't very
skilled then you have

2104
01:38:32,550 --> 01:38:33,630
problems with that.

2105
01:38:33,630 --> 01:38:35,270
So I think it worked
mixed there.

2106
01:38:35,270 --> 01:38:40,690
But the potential is good and
the freedom is really good.

2107
01:38:40,690 --> 01:38:42,040
And it teaches people
to be responsible.

2108
01:38:42,040 --> 01:38:44,395
But it has its downsides.

2109
01:38:44,395 --> 01:38:46,020
So I have a personal experience
with that.

2110
01:38:46,020 --> 01:38:48,090
Which is when I was three.

2111
01:38:48,090 --> 01:38:49,200
So I was born in England.

2112
01:38:49,200 --> 01:38:50,850
And we lived there
for a few years.

2113
01:38:50,850 --> 01:38:52,590
And then we moved
to New Jersey.

2114
01:38:52,590 --> 01:38:57,550
And I guess I was four maybe,
my parents thought about

2115
01:38:57,550 --> 01:39:00,110
sending me to England
to go to Summerhill

2116
01:39:00,110 --> 01:39:02,290
because this was 1973.

2117
01:39:02,290 --> 01:39:04,360
So it was in the middle
of lots of

2118
01:39:04,360 --> 01:39:05,610
political change in America.

2119
01:39:05,610 --> 01:39:08,720
Free schools were a big part
of the cultural discussion.

2120
01:39:08,720 --> 01:39:11,070
And my parents believed
in those values, which

2121
01:39:11,070 --> 01:39:11,880
I'm glad they did.

2122
01:39:11,880 --> 01:39:14,580
And they thought, OK, let's see
about sending Sanjay to

2123
01:39:14,580 --> 01:39:15,260
Summerhill.

2124
01:39:15,260 --> 01:39:18,030
So we took a trip
back to England.

2125
01:39:18,030 --> 01:39:19,170
And they visited.

2126
01:39:19,170 --> 01:39:22,300
And the way they tell me what
happened, was that everything

2127
01:39:22,300 --> 01:39:26,890
was fine except then they were
wandering around with the

2128
01:39:26,890 --> 01:39:28,290
teacher on the tour.

2129
01:39:28,290 --> 01:39:30,940
And they saw these marks
on the door.

2130
01:39:30,940 --> 01:39:33,470
And they said, what are those
marks on the door?

2131
01:39:33,470 --> 01:39:35,460
Because they believed in the
philosophy of letting children

2132
01:39:35,460 --> 01:39:37,550
do what they want to do and
follow their interests.

2133
01:39:37,550 --> 01:39:39,755
But they said, oh, what are
those marks on the door there?

2134
01:39:39,755 --> 01:39:41,960
And they said, oh,
that's Johnny.

2135
01:39:41,960 --> 01:39:47,085
He likes to stand over there and
throw knives at the door.

2136
01:39:47,085 --> 01:39:49,640
So then my parents thought,
well, maybe that's just a

2137
01:39:49,640 --> 01:39:51,380
little too unsupervised.

2138
01:39:51,380 --> 01:39:54,710
Especially if the child is
across the Atlantic from us.

2139
01:39:54,710 --> 01:39:57,380
And it's not really easy to see
how things are going and

2140
01:39:57,380 --> 01:39:59,320
intervene if things aren't
going so well.

2141
01:39:59,320 --> 01:40:00,980
So they decided not to send
me to Summerhill.

2142
01:40:00,980 --> 01:40:03,620
But they sent me to progressive
nursery schools

2143
01:40:03,620 --> 01:40:04,870
locally as well.

2144
01:40:04,870 --> 01:40:08,020
And I have good memories
of those too.

2145
01:40:08,020 --> 01:40:12,200
So yeah, I would say there's a
fundamental point in there,

2146
01:40:12,200 --> 01:40:15,526
which is there's a difference
between freedom and license.

2147
01:40:15,526 --> 01:40:18,940
And so this is a distinction
not often made.

2148
01:40:18,940 --> 01:40:23,510
So license is the bad pole
and freedom is the good.

2149
01:40:23,510 --> 01:40:25,580
This is how I'm splitting
the two parts.

2150
01:40:25,580 --> 01:40:28,360
So license is just do
whatever you want.

2151
01:40:28,360 --> 01:40:30,630
Take drugs.

2152
01:40:30,630 --> 01:40:31,260
Be a prostitute.

2153
01:40:31,260 --> 01:40:32,430
Do whatever you want.

2154
01:40:32,430 --> 01:40:33,680
You're free.

2155
01:40:33,680 --> 01:40:34,870
Well, that's not
really freedom.

2156
01:40:34,870 --> 01:40:37,200
You're licensed.

2157
01:40:37,200 --> 01:40:39,070
Whereas freedom--

2158
01:40:39,070 --> 01:40:42,210
in my mind-- has some intrinsic
regulation on it.

2159
01:40:42,210 --> 01:40:43,090
You're free.

2160
01:40:43,090 --> 01:40:44,550
You're a free creature.

2161
01:40:44,550 --> 01:40:47,140
You have responsibility to
use that freedom well.

2162
01:40:47,140 --> 01:40:49,680
And license doesn't have any
of that responsibility.

2163
01:40:49,680 --> 01:40:53,150
So I think when one is designing
curricula like that

2164
01:40:53,150 --> 01:40:55,880
you have to try to make the
norm such that freedom is

2165
01:40:55,880 --> 01:40:57,710
promoted and not license.

2166
01:40:57,710 --> 01:41:00,070
Now, to some extent, you can't
avoid a bit of license.

2167
01:41:00,070 --> 01:41:03,160
Because, for example, the
Summerhill teachers say that

2168
01:41:03,160 --> 01:41:05,610
when students come from regular
schools where they've

2169
01:41:05,610 --> 01:41:11,690
been basically competing with
each other, basically feeling

2170
01:41:11,690 --> 01:41:14,700
beaten down, some of them come
to Summerhill and just do

2171
01:41:14,700 --> 01:41:16,150
nothing for a year.

2172
01:41:16,150 --> 01:41:19,730
They just sit outside and play
on the swings and in the

2173
01:41:19,730 --> 01:41:21,730
creek, just for a year.

2174
01:41:21,730 --> 01:41:24,350
It takes them a year of
detoxification before they are

2175
01:41:24,350 --> 01:41:26,550
ready to go back into
the classroom and

2176
01:41:26,550 --> 01:41:28,100
learn things formally.

2177
01:41:28,100 --> 01:41:30,200
So you could say that's
a bit of license.

2178
01:41:30,200 --> 01:41:32,410
But maybe that's a bit
of necessary license.

2179
01:41:32,410 --> 01:41:34,070
Or maybe they're actually just

2180
01:41:34,070 --> 01:41:35,660
discovering how to use freedom.

2181
01:41:35,660 --> 01:41:37,570
And it takes them a year because
they never had any

2182
01:41:37,570 --> 01:41:39,400
practice with that.

2183
01:41:39,400 --> 01:41:41,960
So I think it's important
to keep

2184
01:41:41,960 --> 01:41:43,545
those two pieces separate.

2185
01:41:46,060 --> 01:41:48,450
OK, so now there's so
many questions.

2186
01:41:48,450 --> 01:41:51,660
OK so there's two that I
think are particularly

2187
01:41:51,660 --> 01:41:52,820
important to discuss.

2188
01:41:52,820 --> 01:41:56,760
So there was a comment that one
of the Alfie Kohn readings

2189
01:41:56,760 --> 01:42:02,730
was off putting because he made
comments about people

2190
01:42:02,730 --> 01:42:04,910
with different political views
than his and he seemed like a

2191
01:42:04,910 --> 01:42:07,570
left-wing nut.

2192
01:42:07,570 --> 01:42:11,060
And that, therefore, that
reading shouldn't be assigned.

2193
01:42:11,060 --> 01:42:14,080
So yeah, I agree that if you
have quite a different

2194
01:42:14,080 --> 01:42:16,630
political view than Alfie Kohn
it can be a bit off putting.

2195
01:42:16,630 --> 01:42:19,400
But actually, I think
that's a good thing.

2196
01:42:19,400 --> 01:42:21,380
Now why is that?

2197
01:42:21,380 --> 01:42:25,410
It's because it's fundamentally
important to

2198
01:42:25,410 --> 01:42:29,190
find views that challenge you
and read them anyway.

2199
01:42:29,190 --> 01:42:31,800
So as you probably guessed,
most of my views are not

2200
01:42:31,800 --> 01:42:32,630
mainstream.

2201
01:42:32,630 --> 01:42:35,290
So I do that all the time
whether I like it or not, just

2202
01:42:35,290 --> 01:42:37,690
when I open the paper, or if I
happen to watch television,

2203
01:42:37,690 --> 01:42:39,330
which I actually don't
hardly at all.

2204
01:42:39,330 --> 01:42:44,480
But if I open the newspaper or
read things, just right next

2205
01:42:44,480 --> 01:42:47,520
to my office there was
a teaching magazine.

2206
01:42:47,520 --> 01:42:48,520
I forget what is called.

2207
01:42:48,520 --> 01:42:49,300
Prism maybe?

2208
01:42:49,300 --> 01:42:51,200
I forget the name
of the magazine.

2209
01:42:51,200 --> 01:42:52,795
But it's on the magazine
display.

2210
01:42:52,795 --> 01:42:54,610
And I just was walking by.

2211
01:42:54,610 --> 01:42:58,340
And turned my head this
way to read the title

2212
01:42:58,340 --> 01:42:59,330
on the front cover.

2213
01:42:59,330 --> 01:43:08,990
And it said cash incentives
are proving successful for

2214
01:43:08,990 --> 01:43:10,800
promoting student learning.

2215
01:43:10,800 --> 01:43:13,780
So this was against everything
I believed in.

2216
01:43:13,780 --> 01:43:17,110
So if I have the time I'll
actually read the article.

2217
01:43:17,110 --> 01:43:19,450
But I'm surrounded by things
I disagree with.

2218
01:43:19,450 --> 01:43:21,180
And I think that's actually
pretty healthy.

2219
01:43:21,180 --> 01:43:23,125
So if you disagree with
the article read

2220
01:43:23,125 --> 01:43:24,375
it all the way through.

2221
01:43:26,920 --> 01:43:31,100
And the law professor Cass
Sonstein from Chicago--

2222
01:43:31,100 --> 01:43:33,260
who's talked about as being
a possible Supreme

2223
01:43:33,260 --> 01:43:36,460
Court nominee by Obama--

2224
01:43:36,460 --> 01:43:41,510
he's written eloquently about
the dangers of not doing that.

2225
01:43:41,510 --> 01:43:45,290
Because it wasn't so possible
50 years ago.

2226
01:43:45,290 --> 01:43:47,840
There was large-circulation
newspapers and maybe two,

2227
01:43:47,840 --> 01:43:49,290
three in each town.

2228
01:43:49,290 --> 01:43:50,940
And people read those.

2229
01:43:50,940 --> 01:43:54,060
There was a common discourse
through that.

2230
01:43:54,060 --> 01:43:56,780
But now, everyone can get their
own particular news on

2231
01:43:56,780 --> 01:43:57,720
the internet.

2232
01:43:57,720 --> 01:43:57,813
Right?

2233
01:43:57,813 --> 01:44:01,640
You can get your own views from
this small journal or

2234
01:44:01,640 --> 01:44:04,220
from that particular newspaper
or this person writing an

2235
01:44:04,220 --> 01:44:06,400
article that you happen
to agree with.

2236
01:44:06,400 --> 01:44:09,600
And the danger is of people
just collecting into small

2237
01:44:09,600 --> 01:44:14,260
little micro communities, where
each community just

2238
01:44:14,260 --> 01:44:17,680
agrees with itself and only
reads things and discusses

2239
01:44:17,680 --> 01:44:19,010
things that they agree with.

2240
01:44:19,010 --> 01:44:21,430
And that's very unhealthy for
democracy he points out, which

2241
01:44:21,430 --> 01:44:22,920
I think is right.

2242
01:44:22,920 --> 01:44:25,300
So I think it's very important
to actually seek out things

2243
01:44:25,300 --> 01:44:26,010
you disagree with.

2244
01:44:26,010 --> 01:44:28,800
And so if I happen to give you
a reading that at first you

2245
01:44:28,800 --> 01:44:33,020
disagreed with it's not
such a bad thing.

2246
01:44:33,020 --> 01:44:37,430
And it belongs, for sure, in
an academic curriculum.

2247
01:44:37,430 --> 01:44:39,920
Because that's one of the
purposes of an academic

2248
01:44:39,920 --> 01:44:40,730
curriculum.

2249
01:44:40,730 --> 01:44:45,660
The word university comes from--
it has Uni in it, one.

2250
01:44:45,660 --> 01:44:47,300
So the idea is it's
one universe.

2251
01:44:47,300 --> 01:44:53,460
All ideas are open discussion,
even ones we disagree with.

2252
01:44:53,460 --> 01:44:54,920
OK, so let's see.

2253
01:45:07,970 --> 01:45:12,650
OK, then the related one is, I
find it off putting when I put

2254
01:45:12,650 --> 01:45:14,940
my personal biases and
opinions as absolute.

2255
01:45:14,940 --> 01:45:17,200
For example, programming--

2256
01:45:17,200 --> 01:45:18,860
and this is related to
the last point--

2257
01:45:18,860 --> 01:45:21,400
programming LaTeX may
be easier and more

2258
01:45:21,400 --> 01:45:22,250
convenient for me.

2259
01:45:22,250 --> 01:45:24,980
But it's possible to develop
familiarity with other

2260
01:45:24,980 --> 01:45:27,530
software and systems that
makes them close to

2261
01:45:27,530 --> 01:45:30,540
equivalent, if not equivalent.

2262
01:45:30,540 --> 01:45:32,380
That may be true.

2263
01:45:32,380 --> 01:45:35,540
Though I think there's
fundamental reasons to

2264
01:45:35,540 --> 01:45:36,360
wonder about it.

2265
01:45:36,360 --> 01:45:43,400
Just because By not using a
system such as LaTeX or Tex.

2266
01:45:43,400 --> 01:45:45,760
What's common about all of them
is that you program them.

2267
01:45:45,760 --> 01:45:48,290
And by not using a system like
that, you give up the ability

2268
01:45:48,290 --> 01:45:49,540
to program.

2269
01:45:49,540 --> 01:45:52,200
And that is a huge loss.

2270
01:45:52,200 --> 01:45:54,370
You can see it, how much
can computers do?

2271
01:45:54,370 --> 01:45:55,900
The way computers are
so powerful is

2272
01:45:55,900 --> 01:45:57,280
because we program them.

2273
01:45:57,280 --> 01:46:00,700
And the fundamental recipe
for programming is--

2274
01:46:00,700 --> 01:46:01,930
at least when I teach it--

2275
01:46:01,930 --> 01:46:03,180
this--

2276
01:46:07,320 --> 01:46:10,845
So this is how the fundamental
idea of programming I think.

2277
01:46:10,845 --> 01:46:16,740
So you do something and
then you do it again.

2278
01:46:20,140 --> 01:46:21,950
And when you're doing it
again, you're like,

2279
01:46:21,950 --> 01:46:23,550
oh, I just did this.

2280
01:46:23,550 --> 01:46:25,060
Maybe I should write
a program.

2281
01:46:25,060 --> 01:46:26,120
Nah, I'm too lazy.

2282
01:46:26,120 --> 01:46:29,020
But then the third time
it happens again.

2283
01:46:29,020 --> 01:46:31,060
And you're like, OK,
bloody hell, this

2284
01:46:31,060 --> 01:46:32,310
time write a program.

2285
01:46:36,680 --> 01:46:39,190
OK, so basically the recipe is
the third time you're about to

2286
01:46:39,190 --> 01:46:41,070
do something, don't do it.

2287
01:46:41,070 --> 01:46:42,160
Write a program to do it.

2288
01:46:42,160 --> 01:46:46,460
So now you have a little mini
program that you can reuse.

2289
01:46:46,460 --> 01:46:47,800
Now it's a new module.

2290
01:46:47,800 --> 01:46:50,570
And you can use that module to
build still new programs.

2291
01:46:50,570 --> 01:46:54,380
You can build a huge
power abstraction.

2292
01:46:54,380 --> 01:46:56,890
So for example, in the
figure-drawing program you can

2293
01:46:56,890 --> 01:47:00,550
actually write programs
that generate trees.

2294
01:47:00,550 --> 01:47:03,580
And then you can write
a five-line script.

2295
01:47:03,580 --> 01:47:05,270
And you say, OK, feed
that through my

2296
01:47:05,270 --> 01:47:06,360
tree-generating program.

2297
01:47:06,360 --> 01:47:09,340
And it'll make a tree that you
can use in your figures, in

2298
01:47:09,340 --> 01:47:10,860
your talks, or in your books.

2299
01:47:10,860 --> 01:47:13,070
So I'll post a few
examples of that.

2300
01:47:13,070 --> 01:47:16,310
The input as five-line tree
and the output PDF.

2301
01:47:19,000 --> 01:47:21,420
So the first time you write that
program it takes longer

2302
01:47:21,420 --> 01:47:23,710
than doing it graphically,
no question.

2303
01:47:23,710 --> 01:47:26,680
Which is why this second
part happens.

2304
01:47:26,680 --> 01:47:29,490
Because you do it the slightly
hard way the first time.

2305
01:47:29,490 --> 01:47:31,100
You don't realize the second
time you're like, oh, there's

2306
01:47:31,100 --> 01:47:32,830
something in common here.

2307
01:47:32,830 --> 01:47:33,240
[BUZZER SOUND]

2308
01:47:33,240 --> 01:47:34,300
But it's too late.

2309
01:47:34,300 --> 01:47:35,820
I just have to do it the
slightly hard way.

2310
01:47:35,820 --> 01:47:38,420
The third time you think, OK,
finally I'm going to do it

2311
01:47:38,420 --> 01:47:39,190
with the program.

2312
01:47:39,190 --> 01:47:42,760
So I think there are fundamental
reasons to think

2313
01:47:42,760 --> 01:47:45,440
that if you can program
your documents you'll

2314
01:47:45,440 --> 01:47:47,620
also be more efficient.

2315
01:47:47,620 --> 01:47:51,610
Now, that actually may end
up not being true.

2316
01:47:51,610 --> 01:47:52,650
I suspect it is.

2317
01:47:52,650 --> 01:47:53,290
But it may not be.

2318
01:47:53,290 --> 01:47:58,680
But even if it isn't take
it as not an absolute.

2319
01:47:58,680 --> 01:48:01,840
But as a suggestion to
try in your own work

2320
01:48:01,840 --> 01:48:03,680
and in your own writing.

2321
01:48:03,680 --> 01:48:06,770
And I don't mean it
as an absolute.

2322
01:48:06,770 --> 01:48:08,900
OK, so now there's 10
more questions.

2323
01:48:08,900 --> 01:48:12,480
But I'm going to leave
them for now.

2324
01:48:12,480 --> 01:48:14,560
And if at the end we haven't
used up all the time with

2325
01:48:14,560 --> 01:48:16,500
questions I'll continue with
some of those questions.