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PROFESSOR: OK.

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So today we're going to,
I guess, kind of

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[UNINTELLIGIBLE]

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folks from [UNINTELLIGIBLE]

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which is actually very
closely related.

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These are folks that,
[UNINTELLIGIBLE] the

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Comparative Media Studies
Research Group, based in the

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old Media Lab building
right now.

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And you work with the shared
education program.

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For folks who're unaware of
this, MIT actually has a

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teacher education program.

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So if you want to be a certified
teacher to teach--

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AUDIENCE: Middle school
math and science.

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Secondary math and science.

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PROFESSOR: Then you can take
classes and basically get your

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certification of
[UNINTELLIGIBLE] certification

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at the end of those classes.

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But they also make games.

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Games using portable devices
like iPhones and PocketPC

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games that run on Flash to go
and prototype stuff before.

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And focusing a lot on
games for learning.

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So the education
[UNINTELLIGIBLE]

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the research group.

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The Learning Games Network is
kind of like a spinoff company

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of the [UNINTELLIGIBLE].

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It basically sort of works on
projects that will be too

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expensive to do inside
the university.

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Because the university is
really inefficient.

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Anyway.

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Maybe you can start by
introducing yourself?

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GUEST SPEAKER: I'm the latest
in the group, so OK.

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I am Constantine.

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I come from Austria.

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I'm at the moment a visiting
researcher at

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the Education Arcade.

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And so I'd say I come from an
educational background.

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So I did my Ph.D on learning
from failure.

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And I worked on theories that
explain why we use, why we

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learn through mistakes and why
most of them don't want to

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learn from failure.

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But in games we think it's
really funny, or entertaining,

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or challenging.

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So I was really interested in
how games can be tools to

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understand learning and
also, is it possible--

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this is one of my research
questions-- is it possible

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that people may learn, through
playing games, how to cope

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with failure better?

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Like, being more open to
realizing that sometimes in

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life we make failure and our
expectations are not true, or

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sometimes maybe wrong.

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So I do research on the
theoretical level with that,

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and I do interviews with
players on learning

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biographies and on how learning
experiences through

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games were important
in their lives.

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And in the summer I was happy to
work for Gambit and design

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a game in the summer
production.

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Maybe you heard about
that anyway, or--

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PROFESSOR: [UNINTELLIGIBLE]

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GUEST SPEAKER: So it's
just like 8 weeks.

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I was on a team and my theory
was used as the basis to

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develop a learning game
called Afterland.

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And of course it's
free online.

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And I think our students did a
really good job on this game.

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And it's a platformer where--

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I will not tell you what it's
about because then I would

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ruin it, but there is a twist.

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And what I'm going to do now in
the next year is, it looks

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like I will try for a few months
and do research on how

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the game is used by players.

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How they learn in the game, how
they reflect on the game

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and I will work with
[UNINTELLIGIBLE]

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Johnson and hopefully even
[UNINTELLIGIBLE] in that.

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Thank you.

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PROFESSOR: [UNINTELLIGIBLE]

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GUEST SPEAKER: Hi,
I'm Dan Reilly.

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I'm a CMS alum.

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I did a masters in,
finished in 07.

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Worked with Philip a little
bit here and there.

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Mostly I worked with the
Education Arcade during my

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time at CMS and with Scott.

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And we worked on a project
called Lunar the Labyrinth

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which you may have heard of.

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It teaches middle school math
and literacy skills,

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particularly to the at-risk
population that I believe

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[UNINTELLIGIBLE].

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It's free and online.

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PROFESSOR: [UNINTELLIGIBLE]

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GUEST SPEAKER: Better
than after me.

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Got to keep it interesting.

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PROFESSOR: Is there a twist?

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GUEST SPEAKER: Is
there a twist?

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PROFESSOR: Yes, well--

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[UNINTELLIGIBLE] twist that
you originally wanted.

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[INTERPOSING VOICES]

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GUEST SPEAKER: There
was a twist in

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the development process.

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So, that one was feted by the
Department of Education.

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And it was a larger scale
project, but the grant didn't

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go to MIT, it went to Maryland
Public Television.

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So that was part of the, I
believe, impetus, for the

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spinoff of the Learning Games
Network, is to house a

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structure that can accomodate
the sorts of larger scale

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projects and think about them
in more sustainable ways.

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I'll let Scott talk
about that.

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So, how did I get into this?

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My interest in learning games
is mostly around engagement.

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I feel like people who are
extremely motivated and

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enthralled with a particular
subject will find a

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way to learn it.

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And that a game may or may not
be the best way to learn

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anything in particular.

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But that there are many people
out there who struggle to get

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interested in a topic
they're even trying.

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And so a game can
be useful there.

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So that's an exploratory tool
to say, well, I never really

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thought about history, but I
like this game and I want to

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spend some time with it and I
want to be good at it, and

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it's social, so now I'm finding
myself asking the

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kinds of questions that other
people are telling me

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historians ask.

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And I don't know what label they
want to put on it, but I

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think it's interesting, and
just sort of having that

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introduction to a topic.

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Also I think games
are helpful for--

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I guess I'd call it identity
exploration.

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So for people, or particular
learners, who may not think of

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themselves as learners or as
confident learners, that they

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can put that enemy behind them
when they enter the game

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because, it's a game.

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And anyone can play it.

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Or, maybe I'm particularly
good at games,

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so I can play games.

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And then I can suddenly realize
that I might be good

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at other things as well, or I
might be interested in other

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things that I wouldn't allow
myself to discover whether or

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not I was interested,
because it was a

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risky sphere to enter.

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So, current projects.

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We're doing a language
learning game.

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It's attached to a massively
multiplayer online game, with

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a grant targeting a population
of Spanish-speaking high

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school students in the US.

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And that grant is from the
Hewlett Foundation.

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And then we have a couple of
other projects going as well.

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We've got science and
some other stuff.

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That's about it.

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GUEST SPEAKER: So I'm
Scott Osterweil.

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I'm the research director
of the Education Arcade.

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I have two titles, research
director and creative director

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of the Education Arcade.

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But also one of the co-founders
of the Learning

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Games Network.

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And I don't want to repeat too
much of what's been said.

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Except that at the same time as
I do this for a living, I

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still struggle with the
term educational game.

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Because it's not the way I think
of what I do, primarily.

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The first game I designed,
before

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working in this setting--

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the first game I did was
a commercial game.

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It wasn't designed as an
educational game, it was

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designed just as a puzzle
adventure game.

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It happened to be about math and
logic, but that was just

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because that's what we thought
was interesting.

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It got marketed because of the
changes in the marketplace as

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edutainment.

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But when I started in the
business there was no such

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word as edutainment.

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Most games, if you go back to
the early 90s, were sort of

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exploratory environments.

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Either they were twitch games
or they were exploratory

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environments.

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And I have nothing against
twitch games, but the

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exploratory environments
were all about

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thinking and problem solving.

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And to me that's what's
interesting.

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No matter what domain you're
working in, whether it's

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mathematical or whether
it's historical, the

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processes are the same.

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And one slight twist I want to
put on what Dan said, I think

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we're on the same page, but
because he led with the idea

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of engagement, it's possible
to think that I'm talking

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about games as an inducement
to do something you

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don't want to do.

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And I think that games are an
opportunity to discover how

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much fun something is.

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Which is very different from
sort of, ah, we tricked you .

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But rather, this is really
interesting, don't you like

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doing this and you
can do more.

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And if that's all you can get
out of it, that's fine.

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If you later realize, oh, I
like doing that and that's

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math, and you do more of
that, that's awesome.

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That's even better.

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00:10:08,643 --> 00:10:11,018
And I think it's not so much
because I just said it's fun,

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00:10:11,018 --> 00:10:17,572
it's because I think the very
process of thinking and

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00:10:17,572 --> 00:10:18,822
problem-solving [UNINTELLIGIBLE]

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People do get that out
of games, and I

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just think it's important.

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It's how people realize, if you
enjoyed it in a game, you

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can enjoy it in life.

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And maybe this comes from
my own realization .

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00:10:31,380 --> 00:10:33,364
But when I was in sixth grade,
instead of them saying the

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00:10:33,364 --> 00:10:37,908
scientific method, and writing
this list of dull steps on the

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00:10:37,908 --> 00:10:41,366
blackboard, they said,
play this puzzle.

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00:10:41,366 --> 00:10:43,259
Now let's talk about how
you solved the puzzle.

216
00:10:43,259 --> 00:10:44,330
That's science.

217
00:10:44,330 --> 00:10:49,770
I think that I might have
ended up working at MIT.

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So anyway, that's my spiel.

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00:10:53,920 --> 00:10:58,034
PROFESSOR: So talking a little
bit about identifying how

220
00:10:58,034 --> 00:11:04,965
you're going to locate what's
enjoyable about the thing that

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00:11:04,965 --> 00:11:07,875
you want the people
to engage with.

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00:11:07,875 --> 00:11:11,755
Can you talk a little bit
about, maybe in a recent

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00:11:11,755 --> 00:11:14,665
project or in a past
project, how you

224
00:11:14,665 --> 00:11:16,560
went about that process.

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00:11:16,560 --> 00:11:20,362
Let's talk about the things
that you worked out.

226
00:11:20,362 --> 00:11:24,306
And maybe sometimes it was more
difficult and you had

227
00:11:24,306 --> 00:11:24,799
challenges.

228
00:11:24,799 --> 00:11:30,715
Maybe sometimes it was
just pretty obvious.

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GUEST SPEAKER: I'll take it.

230
00:11:32,687 --> 00:11:33,180
So--

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00:11:33,180 --> 00:11:36,138
GUEST SPEAKER: [UNINTELLIGIBLE]

232
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GUEST SPEAKER: I'd like to
congratulate Scott on his

233
00:11:39,096 --> 00:11:41,590
personal growth.

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00:11:41,590 --> 00:11:45,774
So, with the language learning
game that we're working on at

235
00:11:45,774 --> 00:11:48,470
the moment, there are approaches
to language

236
00:11:48,470 --> 00:11:52,727
learning out there in the
world that emphasize

237
00:11:52,727 --> 00:11:57,920
vocabulary memorization
or grammar.

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00:11:57,920 --> 00:12:05,410
Grammar, meaning, memorizing
tables of conjugations and

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00:12:05,410 --> 00:12:07,905
it's pretty much stripped
of any sort

240
00:12:07,905 --> 00:12:09,610
of meaningful context.

241
00:12:09,610 --> 00:12:15,215
So, and a meaningful context
could either be a text, and I

242
00:12:15,215 --> 00:12:18,898
use that word loosely,
that is engaging.

243
00:12:18,898 --> 00:12:22,441
It could be a film that you want
to see, that happens to

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00:12:22,441 --> 00:12:25,280
be in a language that you
are trying to learn.

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Or it could be a means
of communication.

246
00:12:29,216 --> 00:12:31,696
After all, that's what
language is.

247
00:12:31,696 --> 00:12:37,152
So, if you're thinking about
using language as a means of

248
00:12:37,152 --> 00:12:39,136
communication, then of course
you need to think about, well,

249
00:12:39,136 --> 00:12:40,128
what are you communicating?

250
00:12:40,128 --> 00:12:42,942
And, fortunately, games are
full of communication.

251
00:12:42,942 --> 00:12:45,158
Between the game and
the player, and the

252
00:12:45,158 --> 00:12:46,096
player and the game.

253
00:12:46,096 --> 00:12:48,675
And if it's a multiplayer
game, between the

254
00:12:48,675 --> 00:12:49,450
players in the game.

255
00:12:49,450 --> 00:12:51,630
So it was almost--

256
00:12:51,630 --> 00:12:54,070
if you start from that
philosophy, it's almost a

257
00:12:54,070 --> 00:12:57,402
trivial exercise to say, OK,
well, what's something

258
00:12:57,402 --> 00:13:00,270
interesting for people to
talk about in a game?

259
00:13:00,270 --> 00:13:01,970
And so you come up with
an interesting game.

260
00:13:01,970 --> 00:13:06,770
And instead of having the
mechanic be, click this button

261
00:13:06,770 --> 00:13:13,500
to activate whatever the nuclear
missile, you have to,

262
00:13:13,500 --> 00:13:14,530
you build in collaboration.

263
00:13:14,530 --> 00:13:17,783
So, I have part of the piece
and you have part of the

264
00:13:17,783 --> 00:13:21,185
piece, and we need to talk about
when to use what and in

265
00:13:21,185 --> 00:13:23,897
which context, and on whom.

266
00:13:23,897 --> 00:13:29,813
And so, suddenly we're talking
and it doesn't even feel like

267
00:13:29,813 --> 00:13:32,771
we're learning a language,
it just feels like

268
00:13:32,771 --> 00:13:34,743
we're playing a game.

269
00:13:34,743 --> 00:13:38,391
And then, if you're doing it
in a language that you're

270
00:13:38,391 --> 00:13:40,690
attempting to learn, then
there's the barrier there

271
00:13:40,690 --> 00:13:44,108
where you might want to say
something that you just don't

272
00:13:44,108 --> 00:13:45,570
have the skill yet to say.

273
00:13:45,570 --> 00:13:49,318
So it's not quite as simple as
just saying, hey, go talk.

274
00:13:49,318 --> 00:13:54,870
But there's slightly innovative
ways that you can

275
00:13:54,870 --> 00:13:58,839
give people tools to allow
themselves to express

276
00:13:58,839 --> 00:14:01,740
themselves in a fairly
constrained context.

277
00:14:01,740 --> 00:14:02,840
So, because you've designed
the game, you

278
00:14:02,840 --> 00:14:03,720
sort of rig the system.

279
00:14:03,720 --> 00:14:06,684
You know that people aren't
going to talk

280
00:14:06,684 --> 00:14:07,854
about absolutely anything.

281
00:14:07,854 --> 00:14:11,440
Maybe they will, in the chat,
but primarily in the game

282
00:14:11,440 --> 00:14:13,520
you're incentivizing their
discussion around

283
00:14:13,520 --> 00:14:14,960
a particular topic.

284
00:14:14,960 --> 00:14:19,280
So if you give them tools to
discuss that particular topic,

285
00:14:19,280 --> 00:14:21,670
not only does it make the
gameplay more efficient, but

286
00:14:21,670 --> 00:14:24,406
that's also how the learning
can happen.

287
00:14:24,406 --> 00:14:27,020
Because there can be some sort
of selection mechanism,

288
00:14:27,020 --> 00:14:31,512
whereby I am able to say
something that I want to say,

289
00:14:31,512 --> 00:14:34,954
but without needing to bring all
of the knowledge of how to

290
00:14:34,954 --> 00:14:35,810
construct that on my own.

291
00:14:35,810 --> 00:14:38,327
There's some amount of, oh, I
can just recognize that that's

292
00:14:38,327 --> 00:14:41,810
more or less what I want.

293
00:14:41,810 --> 00:14:44,300
And then, by seeing it
repeatedly and by seeing other

294
00:14:44,300 --> 00:14:48,687
players use the same tools to
communicate, and knowing that

295
00:14:48,687 --> 00:14:52,655
the communication in a certain
context is valid, that I can

296
00:14:52,655 --> 00:14:55,512
pay close attention to that,
and start to become

297
00:14:55,512 --> 00:14:56,240
familiar and learn.

298
00:14:56,240 --> 00:15:00,220
But it's not, I have
to memorize it so

299
00:15:00,220 --> 00:15:01,810
that I can use it.

300
00:15:01,810 --> 00:15:06,088
It's, I'm using it and I'm using
it so much that I just

301
00:15:06,088 --> 00:15:07,576
can actually learn it.

302
00:15:07,576 --> 00:15:09,064
AUDIENCE: Question on that.

303
00:15:09,064 --> 00:15:13,280
So, if you're trying to
encourage me to talk Spanish

304
00:15:13,280 --> 00:15:14,817
and you talk Spanish and we're
trying to work something out,

305
00:15:14,817 --> 00:15:16,008
what prevents you from just
typing something in English

306
00:15:16,008 --> 00:15:17,000
and having you read
it in English?

307
00:15:17,000 --> 00:15:18,883
GUEST SPEAKER: Right, so
it depends on the game.

308
00:15:18,883 --> 00:15:21,670
And in some games that's
totally fine.

309
00:15:21,670 --> 00:15:25,700
In other games we have teams
moderate other teams.

310
00:15:25,700 --> 00:15:29,280
In other games, we have some
sort of communication tool

311
00:15:29,280 --> 00:15:31,400
that's not free text entry.

312
00:15:31,400 --> 00:15:37,910
So it's not-- so one extreme
is, here's a list of 10

313
00:15:37,910 --> 00:15:39,240
sentences that you could say.

314
00:15:39,240 --> 00:15:40,420
Click one of them.

315
00:15:40,420 --> 00:15:43,960
And that's not the direction
we tend to go in.

316
00:15:43,960 --> 00:15:47,390
But that's an example of how
to communicate something

317
00:15:47,390 --> 00:15:49,170
without free text entry.

318
00:15:49,170 --> 00:15:51,340
So there could be some
sort of sentence

319
00:15:51,340 --> 00:15:53,450
construction kit, let's say.

320
00:15:53,450 --> 00:15:57,370
Where you have a pool of
different words that you can

321
00:15:57,370 --> 00:16:02,160
assemble and a variety of orders
to express a small set

322
00:16:02,160 --> 00:16:04,460
of meanings.

323
00:16:04,460 --> 00:16:07,080
GUEST SPEAKER: And if you think
about it, games like

324
00:16:07,080 --> 00:16:12,220
Charades or Pictionary, the
need to communicate with

325
00:16:12,220 --> 00:16:14,112
constraints doesn't stop
us from necessarily

326
00:16:14,112 --> 00:16:15,058
enjoying the game.

327
00:16:15,058 --> 00:16:16,950
It could make it interesting.

328
00:16:16,950 --> 00:16:20,870
So, that's part of the game.

329
00:16:20,870 --> 00:16:23,740
Part of our insight was
thinking about our own

330
00:16:23,740 --> 00:16:28,810
experiences learning language
in terms of the game of say,

331
00:16:28,810 --> 00:16:31,720
and this gets at my core idea,
which is to find the game

332
00:16:31,720 --> 00:16:33,301
that's already there.

333
00:16:33,301 --> 00:16:36,035
So, a game that I always play
when I'm traveling with

334
00:16:36,035 --> 00:16:40,168
[UNINTELLIGIBLE] when I travel
to France, where I speak the

335
00:16:40,168 --> 00:16:43,134
language sort of, is how far can
I get into a conversation

336
00:16:43,134 --> 00:16:44,510
before they figure
out I'm American.

337
00:16:44,510 --> 00:16:46,460
So that becomes a game.

338
00:16:46,460 --> 00:16:52,283
And so the whole, and how can I
have or if I notice someone

339
00:16:52,283 --> 00:16:56,540
who's French, how much
of a conversation

340
00:16:56,540 --> 00:16:57,486
can we have in French?

341
00:16:57,486 --> 00:16:58,432
That's a game for me.

342
00:16:58,432 --> 00:16:59,380
At that point it becomes
kind of fun.

343
00:16:59,380 --> 00:17:01,100
So I think we were just really
trying to access that.

344
00:17:01,100 --> 00:17:03,640
And I think that really gets
back to your larger question.

345
00:17:03,640 --> 00:17:06,540
When you take on something new,
I want to know where's

346
00:17:06,540 --> 00:17:08,280
the game already in this?

347
00:17:08,280 --> 00:17:09,829
And I [UNINTELLIGIBLE]

348
00:17:09,829 --> 00:17:13,468
the first game I think, it was
math, and the colleague with

349
00:17:13,468 --> 00:17:16,349
whom I co-designed the game,
we both spent a lot of time

350
00:17:16,349 --> 00:17:18,863
saying, when we were kids, how
did we play with numbers, what

351
00:17:18,863 --> 00:17:20,181
kind of things did
we do, what was

352
00:17:20,181 --> 00:17:21,139
interesting us with numbers?

353
00:17:21,139 --> 00:17:24,500
We really try to access
our own play.

354
00:17:24,500 --> 00:17:31,540
And similarly, now, if I can try
to read practitioners in

355
00:17:31,540 --> 00:17:33,992
the field and say, what do you
think about the shower, when

356
00:17:33,992 --> 00:17:37,278
you run it-- where's the--
because that's where the play

357
00:17:37,278 --> 00:17:39,407
is actually happening
in the field.

358
00:17:39,407 --> 00:17:43,040
And I think that's where people
love their jobs, it's

359
00:17:43,040 --> 00:17:44,880
the play in it that they
love about it.

360
00:17:44,880 --> 00:17:47,993
And that's what I think you're
trying to access in any

361
00:17:47,993 --> 00:17:48,712
simulation.

362
00:17:48,712 --> 00:17:53,280
So Dan, talking about the
language one, we're doing a

363
00:17:53,280 --> 00:17:56,684
game with the Royal Shakespeare
Company, if we can

364
00:17:56,684 --> 00:17:58,840
get funding, around
The Tempest.

365
00:17:58,840 --> 00:18:02,820
And we're trying to figure out
how to make a game of it.

366
00:18:02,820 --> 00:18:06,890
And I realized that part of the
change with Shakespeare

367
00:18:06,890 --> 00:18:11,434
is, to some degree, the
language, too, and sort of

368
00:18:11,434 --> 00:18:12,980
making sense out of the language
which is now somewhat

369
00:18:12,980 --> 00:18:14,796
archaic but really
interesting.

370
00:18:14,796 --> 00:18:21,020
And so we tried to make a game
that's sort of a puzzle that

371
00:18:21,020 --> 00:18:22,970
you assemble by finding the
pieces of the play and

372
00:18:22,970 --> 00:18:24,340
associative things.

373
00:18:24,340 --> 00:18:29,428
So you find a hedgehog and you
find some text that makes a

374
00:18:29,428 --> 00:18:32,003
reference, that somehow makes
you think of the hedgehog and

375
00:18:32,003 --> 00:18:32,635
you put them together and you
actually start building a

376
00:18:32,635 --> 00:18:33,320
visual puzzle.

377
00:18:33,320 --> 00:18:36,095
So it's really a challenge
of making sense of the

378
00:18:36,095 --> 00:18:37,580
significance of text.

379
00:18:37,580 --> 00:18:42,530
It [UNINTELLIGIBLE] you and your
picture of Shakespeare's

380
00:18:42,530 --> 00:18:45,030
play, The Tempest, starts to
emerge through the gameplay.

381
00:18:45,030 --> 00:18:48,810
So a story sort of appears that
way, the way a picture

382
00:18:48,810 --> 00:18:50,630
appears in a jigsaw puzzle.

383
00:18:50,630 --> 00:18:53,964
So it's a game you play without
knowing, without ever

384
00:18:53,964 --> 00:18:55,530
having seen it.

385
00:18:55,530 --> 00:18:59,320
But part of the experience of
theater is the way stories

386
00:18:59,320 --> 00:19:03,040
emerge from different patterns
in the game.

387
00:19:03,040 --> 00:19:04,624
We're still trying to make a
story [UNINTELLIGIBLE PHRASE]

388
00:19:04,624 --> 00:19:05,874
through exploration.

389
00:19:10,050 --> 00:19:13,100
GUEST SPEAKER: Maybe if I talk
about my career as coming--

390
00:19:13,100 --> 00:19:14,960
I think I come from
an area where we

391
00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:17,120
make really bad games.

392
00:19:17,120 --> 00:19:21,266
There's a saying that education
games are like

393
00:19:21,266 --> 00:19:22,210
chocolate-covered broccoli.

394
00:19:22,210 --> 00:19:23,630
It's not healthy
and not sweet.

395
00:19:23,630 --> 00:19:26,680
And I actually come from a
background where teachers or

396
00:19:26,680 --> 00:19:30,070
educators are asked to build
games for somebody.

397
00:19:30,070 --> 00:19:31,430
And what you have is contents.

398
00:19:31,430 --> 00:19:35,490
And I can say that, because I
think most of my colleagues

399
00:19:35,490 --> 00:19:36,080
seem to know better.

400
00:19:36,080 --> 00:19:37,770
They thought, OK,
I have content.

401
00:19:37,770 --> 00:19:40,052
That content is good, and now I
just make do with a song and

402
00:19:40,052 --> 00:19:42,293
the kids are going to love it.

403
00:19:42,293 --> 00:19:46,660
And I think, as you all see,
Jeremy, we all know how quick

404
00:19:46,660 --> 00:19:49,918
kids realize it is not fun.

405
00:19:49,918 --> 00:19:55,468
And I think there are tons of
bad games out there that ruin

406
00:19:55,468 --> 00:19:58,947
the reputation of educational
games in a sense.

407
00:19:58,947 --> 00:20:02,080
And coming here to MIT and
working with Scott and people

408
00:20:02,080 --> 00:20:05,520
like Dan, that I realized more,
the question is more,

409
00:20:05,520 --> 00:20:09,498
what makes us curious about
the problem, about the

410
00:20:09,498 --> 00:20:10,680
learning content.

411
00:20:10,680 --> 00:20:11,540
Of course, we can have the
content of the game, something

412
00:20:11,540 --> 00:20:12,850
we don't even have to call it.

413
00:20:12,850 --> 00:20:14,090
It's more abstract.

414
00:20:14,090 --> 00:20:17,650
We look for metaphors that are
kind of like, if you can

415
00:20:17,650 --> 00:20:20,780
understand how to be interested
in history without

416
00:20:20,780 --> 00:20:24,260
really learning all the real
data maybe you learn in other

417
00:20:24,260 --> 00:20:26,130
history, but you get interested

418
00:20:26,130 --> 00:20:27,700
in how history works.

419
00:20:27,700 --> 00:20:31,240
And I think that's kind of like
what I learned here and I

420
00:20:31,240 --> 00:20:36,630
realize now that it's really
useful, that we don't use the

421
00:20:36,630 --> 00:20:38,860
chocolate covered broccoli
any more.

422
00:20:38,860 --> 00:20:42,070
We ask more about, what
do we really want?

423
00:20:42,070 --> 00:20:44,890
Do we want to have something
that is healthy or sweet, or

424
00:20:44,890 --> 00:20:47,340
something different,
let's cook it.

425
00:20:47,340 --> 00:20:49,500
Let's not just combine
two things.

426
00:20:49,500 --> 00:20:53,930
And I think there's something
that also-- the good

427
00:20:53,930 --> 00:20:55,820
educational games that
are out there are

428
00:20:55,820 --> 00:20:59,180
heading in that direction.

429
00:20:59,180 --> 00:21:03,530
PROFESSOR: Do you have
counter-examples from your

430
00:21:03,530 --> 00:21:09,199
work, of something that seemed
fruitful but then kind of

431
00:21:09,199 --> 00:21:13,095
maybe you were trying to address
some subject area and

432
00:21:13,095 --> 00:21:16,922
then were trying to marry some
specific game mechanics you

433
00:21:16,922 --> 00:21:19,180
thought might work, but
were disappointed?

434
00:21:19,180 --> 00:21:21,710
GUEST SPEAKER: I could talk
about one that's not resolved

435
00:21:21,710 --> 00:21:24,480
yet, that I'm struggling with.

436
00:21:27,350 --> 00:21:31,081
We're doing a game with a
professor here at Ocean, in

437
00:21:31,081 --> 00:21:34,810
environmental engineering,
about microbes.

438
00:21:34,810 --> 00:21:38,714
He does all his work study
on microbes in the ocean.

439
00:21:38,714 --> 00:21:40,178
Which I've learned about.

440
00:21:40,178 --> 00:21:42,630
Half the biomass of the
ocean are microbes.

441
00:21:42,630 --> 00:21:44,954
And we know almost nothing
about them, because until

442
00:21:44,954 --> 00:21:48,745
people like him, he's one of a
few, built apparatus to study

443
00:21:48,745 --> 00:21:51,520
ocean-like conditions in the
laboratory, we had no way of

444
00:21:51,520 --> 00:21:53,050
knowing what was going
on with them.

445
00:21:53,050 --> 00:21:56,140
So that's interesting
if you get into it.

446
00:21:56,140 --> 00:21:58,703
It's not something that
middle school kids are

447
00:21:58,703 --> 00:22:02,030
dying to know about.

448
00:22:02,030 --> 00:22:07,343
So we're doing a simulation
where the premise is that

449
00:22:07,343 --> 00:22:11,584
you've got a part of the ocean
that's dead and you're trying

450
00:22:11,584 --> 00:22:14,828
to re-engineer it by introducing
nano-bots, which

451
00:22:14,828 --> 00:22:15,826
you can build.

452
00:22:15,826 --> 00:22:19,818
And these nano-bots would in
effect simulate the functions

453
00:22:19,818 --> 00:22:28,301
of what looked like
processing oxygen.

454
00:22:28,301 --> 00:22:35,786
Or rather, plants processing
either oxygen and producing

455
00:22:35,786 --> 00:22:38,090
CO2 and energy, or
the reverse.

456
00:22:38,090 --> 00:22:40,090
Taking CO2 and sunlight and--

457
00:22:40,090 --> 00:22:41,240
Anyway.

458
00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:45,506
So, the challenge, we made a
sort of interesting playable

459
00:22:45,506 --> 00:22:47,530
simulation where you
build the stuff.

460
00:22:47,530 --> 00:22:56,810
But I haven't figured out yet
I'm struggling with, have we

461
00:22:56,810 --> 00:23:00,369
found a way to entice you to
do this, though, without

462
00:23:00,369 --> 00:23:01,770
having to give you too
much information?

463
00:23:01,770 --> 00:23:05,380
And I'm a big believer that a
game-- this game does not

464
00:23:05,380 --> 00:23:09,420
start with instructions, because
I don't believe games

465
00:23:09,420 --> 00:23:10,875
should ever start with
instructions.

466
00:23:10,875 --> 00:23:13,020
But I'm still struggling with
the information we're

467
00:23:13,020 --> 00:23:13,380
providing along the way.

468
00:23:13,380 --> 00:23:17,620
There's too much read this now,
as opposed to-- and I

469
00:23:17,620 --> 00:23:20,530
think the problem is, because
simulations are very wide open

470
00:23:20,530 --> 00:23:23,390
environments, and it's very hard
to constrain a simulation

471
00:23:23,390 --> 00:23:26,640
enough that the player goes,
ah, now I understand what

472
00:23:26,640 --> 00:23:28,764
variable I just used.

473
00:23:28,764 --> 00:23:33,246
And particularly because kids
have a tendency to see

474
00:23:33,246 --> 00:23:35,238
simulations as black boxes.

475
00:23:35,238 --> 00:23:38,475
So they'll change three
variables at once and not

476
00:23:38,475 --> 00:23:41,089
notice they've changed three
variables, and not think about

477
00:23:41,089 --> 00:23:41,712
what each variable was.

478
00:23:41,712 --> 00:23:45,480
They just don't have the
practice of changing--

479
00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:47,105
really, controlling
three variables.

480
00:23:47,105 --> 00:23:49,750
And if you don't do that,
simulations do become black

481
00:23:49,750 --> 00:23:52,530
boxes, and I'm still struggling
with how to-- not

482
00:23:52,530 --> 00:23:56,941
to, say, mark the kid down the
road and say, OK, now make

483
00:23:56,941 --> 00:23:58,578
this choice, now make
that choice.

484
00:23:58,578 --> 00:24:02,506
Because that's too constrained
and not fun.

485
00:24:02,506 --> 00:24:06,311
I want to have them have a lot
of choices but also have them

486
00:24:06,311 --> 00:24:08,398
understand the effect of the
choices that they've made.

487
00:24:08,398 --> 00:24:10,362
Maybe that's the best
way to sum it.

488
00:24:10,362 --> 00:24:12,817
So just processing the
[UNINTELLIGIBLE PHRASE]

489
00:24:16,745 --> 00:24:19,200
GUEST SPEAKER: I can give
a better example.

490
00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:20,875
So, I was working
on this game.

491
00:24:20,875 --> 00:24:23,480
I wasn't even working on
that, to my excuse.

492
00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:25,663
I was beginning to work with
these people, then realized

493
00:24:25,663 --> 00:24:28,200
it's not the way I want to go.

494
00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:30,600
And then I stepped out of it.

495
00:24:30,600 --> 00:24:31,930
And I think it's a good
example of what

496
00:24:31,930 --> 00:24:32,770
you shouldn't do.

497
00:24:32,770 --> 00:24:37,530
So this small town in Austria
is using their waste to

498
00:24:37,530 --> 00:24:40,620
produce renewable energy.

499
00:24:40,620 --> 00:24:41,435
It's really interesting.

500
00:24:41,435 --> 00:24:45,030
The town is somewhere in the
countryside and nobody was

501
00:24:45,030 --> 00:24:45,170
interested.

502
00:24:45,170 --> 00:24:48,570
It makes so much power now that
they can give power for

503
00:24:48,570 --> 00:24:52,350
free in their town to companies
and the neighboring

504
00:24:52,350 --> 00:24:54,690
companies in neighboring
towns.

505
00:24:54,690 --> 00:24:56,370
So a lot of people
are interested

506
00:24:56,370 --> 00:24:57,970
in how they do that.

507
00:24:57,970 --> 00:25:00,260
And we thought, well, we want to
be a cool town, what if we

508
00:25:00,260 --> 00:25:03,870
make a game instead of just
providing the content.

509
00:25:03,870 --> 00:25:07,630
But what they did, they gave us
all the content and said,

510
00:25:07,630 --> 00:25:08,830
this is what you should
teach the people.

511
00:25:08,830 --> 00:25:11,950
And make it fun.

512
00:25:11,950 --> 00:25:15,400
And in the end, these people
were sitting together, OK,

513
00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:16,670
what do people like?

514
00:25:16,670 --> 00:25:17,230
Comics?

515
00:25:17,230 --> 00:25:20,110
And you have to a character
that is moving around.

516
00:25:20,110 --> 00:25:22,780
And they would make small
multiple choice tests.

517
00:25:22,780 --> 00:25:27,860
And afterwards they get their
rewards, and it says your name

518
00:25:27,860 --> 00:25:30,390
and it says you're trained
in that discipline.

519
00:25:30,390 --> 00:25:34,150
And what was interesting for
me, they built the game.

520
00:25:34,150 --> 00:25:35,600
And the game's been bashed.

521
00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:37,690
And it's very sad and
it's horrible.

522
00:25:37,690 --> 00:25:41,030
But the funniest thing for me
was, who was the target group?

523
00:25:41,030 --> 00:25:42,770
And they never talked
about that.

524
00:25:42,770 --> 00:25:45,150
They always thought who cares
about target groups, we make

525
00:25:45,150 --> 00:25:47,545
this game, everybody's going
to love it, everybody's so

526
00:25:47,545 --> 00:25:47,670
interested.

527
00:25:47,670 --> 00:25:51,987
The idea was who decides
if you can do that in

528
00:25:51,987 --> 00:25:53,420
the majors of towns.

529
00:25:53,420 --> 00:25:57,175
They say, well, we want to
have a company like that.

530
00:25:57,175 --> 00:25:59,460
And so now we're talking
about Austrian,

531
00:25:59,460 --> 00:26:00,800
European, majors of towns.

532
00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:03,640
And they are normally fat
and like to drink wine.

533
00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:06,250
Normally they sit with another
mayor and have lunch and then

534
00:26:06,250 --> 00:26:07,620
they say, wow, this works.

535
00:26:07,620 --> 00:26:09,432
And then they decide
to do it or not.

536
00:26:09,432 --> 00:26:12,190
But now they were sending these
games to majors who did

537
00:26:12,190 --> 00:26:14,910
not know at all what
to do with this.

538
00:26:14,910 --> 00:26:16,940
They couldn't get
into the game.

539
00:26:16,940 --> 00:26:19,500
And so, not that the
game was bad.

540
00:26:19,500 --> 00:26:21,670
They didn't even think about
their target group.

541
00:26:21,670 --> 00:26:27,260
And I think that one aspect that
interested me the most

542
00:26:27,260 --> 00:26:32,253
is, you have to have the context
of the game as a

543
00:26:32,253 --> 00:26:32,505
learning experience.

544
00:26:32,505 --> 00:26:33,830
It has to be suitable.

545
00:26:33,830 --> 00:26:35,270
If this is not happening,
you can play the

546
00:26:35,270 --> 00:26:37,030
most interesting game.

547
00:26:37,030 --> 00:26:40,870
If someone doesn't get the
problem, doesn't get engaged

548
00:26:40,870 --> 00:26:45,130
to the problem, it's just
something happening.

549
00:26:45,130 --> 00:26:46,800
It's not really interesting.

550
00:26:46,800 --> 00:26:49,790
And I think that's a major
problem that this

551
00:26:49,790 --> 00:26:55,200
example was totally .

552
00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:59,610
PROFESSOR: So, know who you're
designing your game for.

553
00:26:59,610 --> 00:27:02,870
And how do you think they get
engaged in the games.

554
00:27:02,870 --> 00:27:04,120
GUEST SPEAKER: Yes.

555
00:27:09,010 --> 00:27:12,082
GUEST SPEAKER: Just to do a
simplistic example, but it's

556
00:27:12,082 --> 00:27:13,510
one [UNINTELLIGIBLE] example.

557
00:27:13,510 --> 00:27:16,740
If I wanted a game for my
mother, who occasionally would

558
00:27:16,740 --> 00:27:18,080
play a casual game.

559
00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:21,682
I wouldn't do a massively
multiplayer game with lots of

560
00:27:21,682 --> 00:27:22,630
stuff going around.

561
00:27:22,630 --> 00:27:24,350
All these senior citizens are
going to get into this

562
00:27:24,350 --> 00:27:25,130
massively multiplayer game.

563
00:27:25,130 --> 00:27:28,463
I mean, it sounds like it would
be really great, to come

564
00:27:28,463 --> 00:27:29,005
up with a massively multiplayer
game for senior

565
00:27:29,005 --> 00:27:29,890
citizens, because of
their eyesight.

566
00:27:29,890 --> 00:27:34,370
But you also know that they
didn't grow up with computers,

567
00:27:34,370 --> 00:27:37,810
and they're not going to be able
to navigate a 3D space.

568
00:27:37,810 --> 00:27:42,726
So, that's a simplified example
of why it's important

569
00:27:42,726 --> 00:27:43,714
[INAUDIBLE].

570
00:27:43,714 --> 00:27:46,925
PROFESSOR: And what is really
good about it is that game

571
00:27:46,925 --> 00:27:49,148
like [? Revish ?] the
cancer game, maybe

572
00:27:49,148 --> 00:27:51,124
some of you know about.

573
00:27:51,124 --> 00:27:53,594
It's a cancer game
[UNINTELLIGIBLE].

574
00:27:53,594 --> 00:27:55,470
GUEST SPEAKER: It was actually
mentioned in the reading

575
00:27:55,470 --> 00:27:55,820
[UNINTELLIGIBLE].

576
00:27:55,820 --> 00:27:58,164
GUEST SPEAKER: But it's
hopefully one of the best

577
00:27:58,164 --> 00:27:59,130
[UNINTELLIGIBLE] learning
games out there.

578
00:27:59,130 --> 00:28:02,295
But the good thing about them
is, people that play that game

579
00:28:02,295 --> 00:28:03,870
have cancer.

580
00:28:03,870 --> 00:28:07,970
So you have the problem to the
game is so close that people

581
00:28:07,970 --> 00:28:12,110
who do not play the game say oh,
I don't care about cancer.

582
00:28:12,110 --> 00:28:13,645
They care about cancer because
they have cancer.

583
00:28:13,645 --> 00:28:17,120
The game is about cancer, and
the way chemotherapy works.

584
00:28:17,120 --> 00:28:21,700
So the context of the engagement
is automatically,

585
00:28:21,700 --> 00:28:23,220
the problem is solved.

586
00:28:23,220 --> 00:28:25,912
But what about this cancer.

587
00:28:25,912 --> 00:28:28,090
What about a learning
game where it's

588
00:28:28,090 --> 00:28:28,816
about language learning?

589
00:28:28,816 --> 00:28:30,053
Are these people already
interested

590
00:28:30,053 --> 00:28:31,000
to learn the language?

591
00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:33,510
Do they come there with their
language problem, or do we

592
00:28:33,510 --> 00:28:37,210
want to introduce them to the
problem or show them maybe you

593
00:28:37,210 --> 00:28:40,120
don't have to be afraid to learn
a language or whatever.

594
00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:41,508
This question has to
be addressed at

595
00:28:41,508 --> 00:28:42,670
a very early stage.

596
00:28:42,670 --> 00:28:46,443
Otherwise, if you start
designing and then address the

597
00:28:46,443 --> 00:28:47,856
question, it's late.

598
00:28:50,860 --> 00:28:55,036
The question is sort of about
the explicit versus the

599
00:28:55,036 --> 00:28:55,964
[UNINTELLIGIBLE].

600
00:28:55,964 --> 00:28:59,140
So if you play [UNINTELLIGIBLE],
that was

601
00:28:59,140 --> 00:29:04,556
really designed to introduce,
basically, an idea that people

602
00:29:04,556 --> 00:29:07,780
have struggled with, which are
what position and velocity

603
00:29:07,780 --> 00:29:09,380
graphs actually mean.

604
00:29:09,380 --> 00:29:12,810
But the game doesn't mention
velocity and it doesn't

605
00:29:12,810 --> 00:29:13,550
mention graphs.

606
00:29:13,550 --> 00:29:17,924
And in fact in the same reviews
that it got lots of

607
00:29:17,924 --> 00:29:20,053
good reviews when it came out,
a lot of them said, I had no

608
00:29:20,053 --> 00:29:21,303
idea this was educational.

609
00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:27,200
I wouldn't argue that that's
fine, that people don't

610
00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:30,728
necessarily know that as they're
playing the game, that

611
00:29:30,728 --> 00:29:32,660
they are still building up some
conceptual knowledge.

612
00:29:32,660 --> 00:29:36,050
I think that some large
percentage of the people who

613
00:29:36,050 --> 00:29:37,560
play a game in that setting will
probably play the game

614
00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:40,962
and do nothing else but then
three months later

615
00:29:40,962 --> 00:29:41,001
they'll have gone.

616
00:29:41,001 --> 00:29:42,251
That experience for most people
will not be resilient.

617
00:29:43,878 --> 00:29:46,994
Not because they didn't enjoy
it, but because they have lots

618
00:29:46,994 --> 00:29:49,610
of things going on in life and
there's more information

619
00:29:49,610 --> 00:29:51,384
coming out of [UNINTELLIGIBLE].

620
00:29:51,384 --> 00:29:53,986
On the other hand, the kid plays
that game and then you

621
00:29:53,986 --> 00:29:55,900
sit down and have a conversation
about velocity

622
00:29:55,900 --> 00:29:58,220
and position graphs, there might
be some real meaningful

623
00:29:58,220 --> 00:29:59,192
learning that occurs.

624
00:29:59,192 --> 00:30:01,740
And so I think it's really
important to not overreach in

625
00:30:01,740 --> 00:30:03,620
that sense.

626
00:30:03,620 --> 00:30:06,508
I try to avoid, although we
still do the saying that our

627
00:30:06,508 --> 00:30:07,496
games teach.

628
00:30:07,496 --> 00:30:10,954
Because I think teaching is a
much more active and explicit

629
00:30:10,954 --> 00:30:12,436
activity to learn games too.

630
00:30:12,436 --> 00:30:16,060
I think our games let people
play with them, let people

631
00:30:16,060 --> 00:30:16,380
learn from them.

632
00:30:16,380 --> 00:30:20,010
And then just like if you
read a book, the book

633
00:30:20,010 --> 00:30:20,632
doesn't teach anything.

634
00:30:20,632 --> 00:30:22,998
The book puts information
[UNINTELLIGIBLE]

635
00:30:22,998 --> 00:30:27,853
And I think that's really part
of, I think, we have to be

636
00:30:27,853 --> 00:30:31,464
modest and humble about it
as we do this stuff.

637
00:30:31,464 --> 00:30:32,740
But that was [UNINTELLIGIBLE]
as the challenge

638
00:30:32,740 --> 00:30:33,340
[UNINTELLIGIBLE]

639
00:30:33,340 --> 00:30:36,500
of thinking about, if you do
want some learning to occur,

640
00:30:36,500 --> 00:30:38,240
where do you want the
learning to occur.

641
00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:41,560
Is this for peoples' personal
lives, is it a mediated

642
00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:42,606
setting like a hospital?

643
00:30:42,606 --> 00:30:46,890
Or is it in a school--
those are really

644
00:30:46,890 --> 00:30:49,760
critical questions .

645
00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:52,876
It's not just the learning
but the setting.

646
00:30:52,876 --> 00:30:55,834
PROFESSOR: And who's introducing
a game to them,

647
00:30:55,834 --> 00:30:56,820
for instance.

648
00:30:56,820 --> 00:30:59,090
Is it a teacher, a doctor.

649
00:30:59,090 --> 00:30:59,840
GUEST SPEAKER: And were
they playing.

650
00:30:59,840 --> 00:31:02,504
Like with Labyrinth, which is
this middle school math game

651
00:31:02,504 --> 00:31:04,870
that Dan and I were
working on.

652
00:31:04,870 --> 00:31:09,790
We knew that if we didn't push
in another direction, the

653
00:31:09,790 --> 00:31:12,440
implementation was going to be,
well print this game and

654
00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:14,074
it gets played in classrooms.

655
00:31:14,074 --> 00:31:16,720
If you've ever seen--

656
00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:20,342
if you remember your own
computer labs in school, that

657
00:31:20,342 --> 00:31:23,057
that was [UNINTELLIGIBLE], which
is true actually for a

658
00:31:23,057 --> 00:31:23,890
lot of [UNINTELLIGIBLE].

659
00:31:23,890 --> 00:31:26,530
It meant every now and then you
had to line up and walk

660
00:31:26,530 --> 00:31:29,165
down the hall to this other
place, that you would only get

661
00:31:29,165 --> 00:31:30,150
to occasionally.

662
00:31:30,150 --> 00:31:32,734
And by the time you settled into
your chairs and booted it

663
00:31:32,734 --> 00:31:34,942
up, you had maybe 20 minutes
on the computer and then it

664
00:31:34,942 --> 00:31:35,200
was time to go.

665
00:31:35,200 --> 00:31:38,242
So if you design something for
schools, you're talking about

666
00:31:38,242 --> 00:31:42,037
a 20 minute experience once
every two or three weeks.

667
00:31:42,037 --> 00:31:44,370
I'm not sure that was
worth thinking about

668
00:31:44,370 --> 00:31:45,970
anything for that.

669
00:31:45,970 --> 00:31:49,555
So we design the game, we
play it online at home.

670
00:31:49,555 --> 00:31:54,106
And encourage teachers to let
the kids just play it.

671
00:31:54,106 --> 00:31:56,606
And there was another advantage
of that, which was

672
00:31:56,606 --> 00:31:57,190
to go back to who
introduces it.

673
00:31:57,190 --> 00:31:59,680
If you play that-- even if we
have the perfect 20 minute

674
00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:02,970
game for the computer lab, if
the teacher's walking around--

675
00:32:02,970 --> 00:32:03,840
I shouldn't say.

676
00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:05,560
I've seen good uses
of that space.

677
00:32:05,560 --> 00:32:07,610
But there's some greater
probability you're going to

678
00:32:07,610 --> 00:32:09,290
feel like this is
just a lesson.

679
00:32:09,290 --> 00:32:11,430
Whereas if the teacher says, go
play this at home, there's

680
00:32:11,430 --> 00:32:13,876
some greater probability that
you will sort of forget about

681
00:32:13,876 --> 00:32:15,656
the school and get
[UNINTELLIGIBLE].

682
00:32:15,656 --> 00:32:17,130
And again, it's not that
we want to trick

683
00:32:17,130 --> 00:32:18,225
you into doing math.

684
00:32:18,225 --> 00:32:20,930
It's that we want to engage
with the math in the most

685
00:32:20,930 --> 00:32:22,880
pleasant spirit possible.

686
00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:27,836
And the less we give the wrapper
of school to it, the

687
00:32:27,836 --> 00:32:29,808
more playful you're
likely to be.

688
00:32:29,808 --> 00:32:32,766
Even if you're not denying that
it's math or science or

689
00:32:32,766 --> 00:32:33,752
[UNINTELLIGIBLE].

690
00:32:33,752 --> 00:32:37,696
So that was
[UNINTELLIGIBLE PHRASE].

691
00:32:37,696 --> 00:32:41,311
GUEST SPEAKER: So Constantine,
you had said the cancer game

692
00:32:41,311 --> 00:32:42,626
is really well evaluated.

693
00:32:42,626 --> 00:32:45,816
So did any of you have stories
or experiences from seeing

694
00:32:45,816 --> 00:32:48,714
your games out in the
world that way.

695
00:32:48,714 --> 00:32:51,023
You've gotten feedback from
teachers who have tried this

696
00:32:51,023 --> 00:32:52,273
in the classrooms.

697
00:32:57,910 --> 00:32:59,890
GUEST SPEAKER: Yeah.

698
00:32:59,890 --> 00:33:01,140
GUEST SPEAKER: [UNINTELLIGIBLE]

699
00:33:05,100 --> 00:33:10,340
so from the game I just talked
about, about renewable

700
00:33:10,340 --> 00:33:12,720
energies that totally failed.

701
00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:16,780
People played it but didn't
understand it, hated it, or

702
00:33:16,780 --> 00:33:17,030
[UNINTELLIGIBLE].

703
00:33:17,030 --> 00:33:20,290
So I think, total failure.

704
00:33:20,290 --> 00:33:27,550
And I think just to start with
this conversation is, this is

705
00:33:27,550 --> 00:33:30,190
a problematic thing.

706
00:33:30,190 --> 00:33:36,350
Because there is very little
research going on on the

707
00:33:36,350 --> 00:33:39,380
iteration of games, because
it's also very hard.

708
00:33:39,380 --> 00:33:42,510
It takes lot of effort and it
also could take a lot of money

709
00:33:42,510 --> 00:33:48,898
to evaluate the research, that
the success of the game for

710
00:33:48,898 --> 00:33:51,343
learning purposes.

711
00:33:51,343 --> 00:33:54,562
And I just know very
few studies that do

712
00:33:54,562 --> 00:33:56,458
that, in the end.

713
00:33:56,458 --> 00:34:00,490
And I think we've just reached
that moment where people start

714
00:34:00,490 --> 00:34:02,210
to think that this is an
interesting way to do it.

715
00:34:02,210 --> 00:34:07,020
And Remission, as I said,
is probably--

716
00:34:07,020 --> 00:34:09,000
maybe you'll correct me in a
second, but I think it's the

717
00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:12,300
only game I would put my hand
into the fire for it.

718
00:34:12,300 --> 00:34:16,397
But the question is, what did
they learn in the game?

719
00:34:16,397 --> 00:34:17,891
They learned about
[UNINTELLIGIBLE].

720
00:34:17,891 --> 00:34:21,875
They learned that there is
something they can do.

721
00:34:21,875 --> 00:34:25,361
They learned a more positive
perspective, a more positive

722
00:34:25,361 --> 00:34:26,855
relation to medicine.

723
00:34:26,855 --> 00:34:30,839
They didn't learn
anything else.

724
00:34:30,839 --> 00:34:31,835
In the research--

725
00:34:31,835 --> 00:34:33,827
GUEST SPEAKER: It doesn't really
change their illness.

726
00:34:33,827 --> 00:34:35,422
PROFESSOR: And they didn't
get happier.

727
00:34:35,422 --> 00:34:39,120
It's not that they said, wow,
now, I couldn't cope better

728
00:34:39,120 --> 00:34:40,389
with their illness.

729
00:34:40,389 --> 00:34:44,584
They just took the medicine and
so the doctors were really

730
00:34:44,584 --> 00:34:44,960
happy with that.

731
00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:46,961
But--

732
00:34:46,961 --> 00:34:48,284
GUEST SPEAKER: That's
the stated goal

733
00:34:48,284 --> 00:34:50,224
of Remission, actually.

734
00:34:50,224 --> 00:34:55,151
It's, this is a 3D game
where you play a

735
00:34:55,151 --> 00:34:57,541
woman in space or something.

736
00:34:57,541 --> 00:35:01,050
Shot down and [UNINTELLIGIBLE]

737
00:35:01,050 --> 00:35:04,200
but the stated goal of the game,
at least of the people

738
00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:07,942
who were making it, was to try
to encourage people who are

739
00:35:07,942 --> 00:35:12,566
suffering from cancer to keep
up with their medication.

740
00:35:12,566 --> 00:35:18,960
Don't fail keeping up the
schedule of taking your

741
00:35:18,960 --> 00:35:22,320
chemotherapy drugs, basically.

742
00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:25,617
And the game was designed to
show what happens, what these

743
00:35:25,617 --> 00:35:30,487
drugs actually try to do in some
sort of fictional-- or

744
00:35:30,487 --> 00:35:33,896
fantastical, I'm not going
to say fictional --

745
00:35:33,896 --> 00:35:36,818
so that's Remission.

746
00:35:36,818 --> 00:35:38,766
PROFESSOR: Is this a free
play game as well?

747
00:35:38,766 --> 00:35:39,155
GUEST SPEAKER: Yeah.

748
00:35:39,155 --> 00:35:39,253
Yeah.

749
00:35:39,253 --> 00:35:41,201
[UNINTELLIGIBLE].

750
00:35:41,201 --> 00:35:43,675
GUEST SPEAKER: So, on Labyrinth
the original grant

751
00:35:43,675 --> 00:35:47,575
include an excess of one year
evaluation on the game use.

752
00:35:47,575 --> 00:35:50,910
And then when Congress cut back
the funding of the larger

753
00:35:50,910 --> 00:35:55,362
program, of which Labyrinth was
just one small piece, that

754
00:35:55,362 --> 00:35:55,605
got cut off.

755
00:35:55,605 --> 00:35:57,306
And so the research
didn't happen.

756
00:35:57,306 --> 00:36:00,222
We're now looking for a grant,
because Labyrinth has been

757
00:36:00,222 --> 00:36:04,620
used aggressively in Maryland
schools [UNINTELLIGIBLE].

758
00:36:04,620 --> 00:36:05,560
So we are going to
look for funding.

759
00:36:05,560 --> 00:36:07,690
But generally, there's
less money.

760
00:36:07,690 --> 00:36:09,280
As little money as there is
you're developing this

761
00:36:09,280 --> 00:36:12,619
[UNINTELLIGIBLE] there's even
less for researching them.

762
00:36:12,619 --> 00:36:18,448
And I think some of what I think
our work is designed

763
00:36:18,448 --> 00:36:20,547
[UNINTELLIGIBLE], we figure
out what we can learn by

764
00:36:20,547 --> 00:36:20,918
making the game.

765
00:36:20,918 --> 00:36:22,760
And we publish what we've
learned in the hope that other

766
00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:25,550
people will pick up the ball,
people who have more of a

767
00:36:25,550 --> 00:36:29,935
research bent in the
traditional sense.

768
00:36:29,935 --> 00:36:32,266
Will start to do the
research about it.

769
00:36:32,266 --> 00:36:32,960
I think we're on the
brink of that.

770
00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:37,270
I think with stuff like the
Quest to Learn School.

771
00:36:37,270 --> 00:36:39,220
Increasing numbers of
educators are using

772
00:36:39,220 --> 00:36:40,390
[UNINTELLIGIBLE].

773
00:36:40,390 --> 00:36:44,568
I do have only anecdotal
evidence, but the very first

774
00:36:44,568 --> 00:36:50,513
game that I did, which was this
massive logic oriented

775
00:36:50,513 --> 00:36:54,490
game, ended up being not
particularly well marketed.

776
00:36:54,490 --> 00:36:57,870
It nevertheless sold
a million copies.

777
00:36:57,870 --> 00:37:02,508
And the anecdotal evidence I got
was that it was one of the

778
00:37:02,508 --> 00:37:04,240
rare cases where parents would
bring it in and recommend it

779
00:37:04,240 --> 00:37:06,430
to teachers, and teachers would
recommend it to parents.

780
00:37:06,430 --> 00:37:09,092
Or kids would come home from
school recommending it.

781
00:37:09,092 --> 00:37:12,627
And there seemed to be this
fairly broad acceptance by

782
00:37:12,627 --> 00:37:16,175
both parents and teachers and
kids, without kids having the

783
00:37:16,175 --> 00:37:18,815
sense that, oh, my teacher's
making me do this.

784
00:37:18,815 --> 00:37:20,265
And I hear that now that
everybody's rich and famous in

785
00:37:20,265 --> 00:37:22,790
their 20s, I occasionally
hear from them.

786
00:37:22,790 --> 00:37:25,774
And some of them say it's
what interested

787
00:37:25,774 --> 00:37:26,590
them in math and stuff.

788
00:37:26,590 --> 00:37:29,478
So that's all anecdotal, and
maybe [UNINTELLIGIBLE] has

789
00:37:29,478 --> 00:37:30,728
some [UNINTELLIGIBLE].

790
00:37:33,220 --> 00:37:36,131
But I think the million copies
is beating towards the--

791
00:37:36,131 --> 00:37:37,381
PROFESSOR:
[UNINTELLIGIBLE PHRASE]

792
00:37:46,280 --> 00:37:46,600
GUEST SPEAKER: Sure.

793
00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:48,405
I'll just add a little
bit to that.

794
00:37:48,405 --> 00:37:51,830
I also have some anecdotal
stuff I want to bring in.

795
00:37:54,481 --> 00:37:57,420
But the most interesting thing
that I've discovered was with

796
00:37:57,420 --> 00:38:01,660
Labyrinth and a target audience
that I've seen play

797
00:38:01,660 --> 00:38:05,053
it, that it was not specifically
designed for.

798
00:38:05,053 --> 00:38:11,040
Which is kids with some sort
of attention disorder.

799
00:38:11,040 --> 00:38:16,284
Whether it's ADD, or autism
or something.

800
00:38:16,284 --> 00:38:19,845
And seeing these kids engage
with the game, even engage

801
00:38:19,845 --> 00:38:25,148
with the game in a social
way, and be

802
00:38:25,148 --> 00:38:27,608
hyperfocused on the game.

803
00:38:27,608 --> 00:38:34,870
And be highly competent with the
game, and to really calm

804
00:38:34,870 --> 00:38:40,978
down and adopt pro-social
behaviors that were not

805
00:38:40,978 --> 00:38:43,816
characteristic of them.

806
00:38:43,816 --> 00:38:46,912
Or that their peers
or families hadn't

807
00:38:46,912 --> 00:38:48,265
seen with them before.

808
00:38:48,265 --> 00:38:51,211
I think there's a lot
of power there.

809
00:38:51,211 --> 00:38:54,036
GUEST SPEAKER: The first two
teachers I've met who have

810
00:38:54,036 --> 00:38:57,308
used Labyrinth said they were
seeing performance with kids

811
00:38:57,308 --> 00:39:01,204
they didn't expect
to see before.

812
00:39:01,204 --> 00:39:04,249
Because our sense was that lots
of kids have competencies

813
00:39:04,249 --> 00:39:05,398
and skills that they
don't show off in

814
00:39:05,398 --> 00:39:07,020
the format of school.

815
00:39:07,020 --> 00:39:10,780
School being its own kind of
game which only certain people

816
00:39:10,780 --> 00:39:11,680
are good at.

817
00:39:11,680 --> 00:39:15,713
And so having a kid be able to
demonstrate a competency at a

818
00:39:15,713 --> 00:39:18,096
different kind of game, and
let the teacher see it.

819
00:39:18,096 --> 00:39:21,634
Because part of the design of
Labyrinth is that teachers can

820
00:39:21,634 --> 00:39:22,980
track progress online.

821
00:39:22,980 --> 00:39:24,483
That was one of our goals.

822
00:39:24,483 --> 00:39:26,948
And that was [UNINTELLIGIBLE].

823
00:39:26,948 --> 00:39:28,427
GUEST SPEAKER: This is a very
good laptop actually.

824
00:39:28,427 --> 00:39:30,892
So is it possible to look it up
and show some of Labyrinth?

825
00:39:30,892 --> 00:39:33,850
Because we've been talking
about it in this aspect.

826
00:39:33,850 --> 00:39:34,343
GUEST SPEAKER: Yeah, sure.

827
00:39:34,343 --> 00:39:34,836
Absolutely.

828
00:39:34,836 --> 00:39:36,808
[INTERPOSING VOICES]

829
00:39:36,808 --> 00:39:40,259
GUEST SPEAKER: It's just
a notion of a game.

830
00:39:40,259 --> 00:39:42,231
GUEST SPEAKER: But other people
can [UNINTELLIGIBLE].

831
00:39:42,231 --> 00:39:43,481
[INTERPOSING VOICES]

832
00:39:48,500 --> 00:39:51,780
PROFESSOR: While we're setting
that up, I'd like to ask a bit

833
00:39:51,780 --> 00:39:53,218
about prototyping.

834
00:39:53,218 --> 00:39:54,468
[UNINTELLIGIBLE]

835
00:40:11,182 --> 00:40:15,500
So, in the process of
designing-- these are mostly

836
00:40:15,500 --> 00:40:17,875
digital games that we've been
talking about all the time.

837
00:40:17,875 --> 00:40:21,130
But I'd like to talk about the
early stage, when you're

838
00:40:21,130 --> 00:40:24,686
working with paper or simple
digital prototypes.

839
00:40:28,910 --> 00:40:32,600
Maybe you can talk a little bit
about how that might be

840
00:40:32,600 --> 00:40:37,375
similar or different from
designing other kinds of

841
00:40:37,375 --> 00:40:40,504
computer games, or
even board games?

842
00:40:40,504 --> 00:40:43,303
Do you test it differently
because you're designing it

843
00:40:43,303 --> 00:40:45,938
explicitly for a specific
audience?

844
00:40:45,938 --> 00:40:49,643
Do you test it with instructors
as well as

845
00:40:49,643 --> 00:40:50,890
players, or [UNINTELLIGIBLE]?

846
00:40:50,890 --> 00:40:52,960
GUEST SPEAKER: I think it's
always best to try to test

847
00:40:52,960 --> 00:40:54,660
with your target audience.

848
00:40:54,660 --> 00:40:57,230
The things you'd learn
from [UNINTELLIGIBLE]

849
00:41:00,810 --> 00:41:03,230
there's thing you learn, you can
learn from any audience.

850
00:41:03,230 --> 00:41:06,610
Particularly usability,
which is important.

851
00:41:06,610 --> 00:41:11,004
Frequently the flaw in a game is
not the core mechanic, but

852
00:41:11,004 --> 00:41:14,665
the ease with which the player
can understand what they're

853
00:41:14,665 --> 00:41:14,950
supposed to do.

854
00:41:14,950 --> 00:41:18,070
But you can test that with
any wide range of people.

855
00:41:18,070 --> 00:41:20,660
Anyone who you think is roughly
as computer game

856
00:41:20,660 --> 00:41:23,090
literate as your target
audience.

857
00:41:23,090 --> 00:41:27,500
But I think if your goal is to
interest middle-school kids

858
00:41:27,500 --> 00:41:31,324
like we do with this game--
let me just turn this on--

859
00:41:35,640 --> 00:41:37,640
then you do want to, because
there are questions about age

860
00:41:37,640 --> 00:41:40,230
appropriateness.

861
00:41:40,230 --> 00:41:42,598
Or [UNINTELLIGIBLE PHRASE]

862
00:41:51,030 --> 00:41:51,526
All right.

863
00:41:51,526 --> 00:41:53,900
So we're about to get
this screen here.

864
00:41:53,900 --> 00:41:55,640
So this is a login screen.

865
00:41:55,640 --> 00:41:59,610
This is not the first screen
you would come to if you'd

866
00:41:59,610 --> 00:42:03,530
started the game from scratch,
you get some more information.

867
00:42:03,530 --> 00:42:04,090
But I've already logged in.

868
00:42:04,090 --> 00:42:08,010
So what you'll notice--

869
00:42:08,010 --> 00:42:11,810
let me just log in.

870
00:42:11,810 --> 00:42:12,780
So it's online.

871
00:42:12,780 --> 00:42:14,080
You can play from
any computer.

872
00:42:14,080 --> 00:42:15,472
That was important because
we were concerned about

873
00:42:15,472 --> 00:42:18,820
underserved populations who
either don't have computers at

874
00:42:18,820 --> 00:42:24,120
home or who have less control
over their time, don't have a

875
00:42:24,120 --> 00:42:25,510
computer in their
room, certainly.

876
00:42:25,510 --> 00:42:27,590
Or might do all their work
in an after-school

877
00:42:27,590 --> 00:42:29,310
setting or a library.

878
00:42:29,310 --> 00:42:33,565
So basically, once you
have an identity you

879
00:42:33,565 --> 00:42:35,002
can log in from anywhere.

880
00:42:35,002 --> 00:42:37,397
I'm going to briefly enter
the game space but

881
00:42:37,397 --> 00:42:38,647
[UNINTELLIGIBLE].

882
00:42:41,720 --> 00:42:43,666
So here we're already in
the middle of the game.

883
00:42:43,666 --> 00:42:45,840
This is a puzzle
adventure game.

884
00:42:45,840 --> 00:42:48,660
And the plot is, someone's
stolen my pet.

885
00:42:48,660 --> 00:42:51,110
I've tracked it down to this
underground factory that's

886
00:42:51,110 --> 00:42:52,790
being run by monsters--

887
00:42:52,790 --> 00:42:55,170
and there's middle schoolers--

888
00:42:55,170 --> 00:42:58,912
with the help of a mysterious
woman with

889
00:42:58,912 --> 00:43:01,620
bluish skin and wings.

890
00:43:01,620 --> 00:43:04,275
I've been given a monster
costume, so in the guise of a

891
00:43:04,275 --> 00:43:10,070
monster myself I can go around
and do jobs in the factory.

892
00:43:10,070 --> 00:43:12,838
Find my pet, figure out what the
monsters are up to, which

893
00:43:12,838 --> 00:43:15,720
is indeed no good.

894
00:43:15,720 --> 00:43:18,800
And I'm in the middle of
this game, so I've

895
00:43:18,800 --> 00:43:19,090
already advanced some.

896
00:43:19,090 --> 00:43:22,275
There is a sequence of rooms,
which, part of the game is

897
00:43:22,275 --> 00:43:24,750
just finding the rooms where
the puzzles are.

898
00:43:24,750 --> 00:43:29,700
For example, we've
got it here.

899
00:43:29,700 --> 00:43:33,165
This is one of the wings
of the factory.

900
00:43:33,165 --> 00:43:35,640
There's a hundred doors here.

901
00:43:35,640 --> 00:43:38,115
And I can click on every
door if I have to.

902
00:43:38,115 --> 00:43:40,598
But I have a map, which is
itself a mathematical tool, to

903
00:43:40,598 --> 00:43:44,930
find where I want to go.

904
00:43:44,930 --> 00:43:48,750
And as I go through, each room
represents a different puzzle.

905
00:43:48,750 --> 00:43:50,480
Anyway, having said
that, we're going

906
00:43:50,480 --> 00:43:51,260
to actually go back--

907
00:43:51,260 --> 00:43:52,610
And oh.

908
00:43:52,610 --> 00:44:00,135
The other big feature in the
game is that if you play on

909
00:44:00,135 --> 00:44:02,350
teams, then you can communicate
with your

910
00:44:02,350 --> 00:44:04,590
teammates through this
communicator.

911
00:44:07,730 --> 00:44:09,933
And the reason there is to
actually get kids reading and

912
00:44:09,933 --> 00:44:12,380
writing about what they're
doing with math.

913
00:44:12,380 --> 00:44:14,300
Because if you want to help
your teammmates, you can't

914
00:44:14,300 --> 00:44:16,690
feed each other the answers
[UNINTELLIGIBLE]

915
00:44:16,690 --> 00:44:17,940
puzzle.

916
00:44:20,310 --> 00:44:21,596
Every puzzle, every
time you play,

917
00:44:21,596 --> 00:44:22,730
it's a different solution.

918
00:44:22,730 --> 00:44:25,474
So you can't tell each other the
answer, all you can do is

919
00:44:25,474 --> 00:44:28,180
talk about your strategies.

920
00:44:28,180 --> 00:44:30,116
We're going to leave the game
and go to puzzle mode

921
00:44:30,116 --> 00:44:31,366
[UNINTELLIGIBLE].

922
00:44:40,540 --> 00:44:42,140
PROFESSOR: This is a shortcut?

923
00:44:42,140 --> 00:44:44,068
GUEST SPEAKER: Yeah, shortcut
to puzzles, right.

924
00:44:44,068 --> 00:44:45,556
You don't have to play it in
the context of the game.

925
00:44:45,556 --> 00:44:46,806
You can play any puzzle
that you want.

926
00:44:50,870 --> 00:44:53,248
I'm going to try one that
I've never played

927
00:44:53,248 --> 00:44:54,220
with a group before.

928
00:44:54,220 --> 00:44:57,862
So usually I pick the same game,
play it, and get used to

929
00:44:57,862 --> 00:44:58,594
playing it with people.

930
00:44:58,594 --> 00:45:01,024
But let's just try this one.

931
00:45:01,024 --> 00:45:02,968
[UNINTELLIGIBLE].

932
00:45:02,968 --> 00:45:07,360
I think I've tried level one.

933
00:45:07,360 --> 00:45:09,858
So I'm trying to remember
what you know here.

934
00:45:09,858 --> 00:45:13,826
You're in the back in
the shipping area.

935
00:45:13,826 --> 00:45:17,720
And you've got to come up with
a manifest to ship the number

936
00:45:17,720 --> 00:45:19,234
of objects that you've got.

937
00:45:19,234 --> 00:45:21,720
That's all you know.

938
00:45:21,720 --> 00:45:22,980
You've basically got to
give them the right

939
00:45:22,980 --> 00:45:25,325
instructions to ship it.

940
00:45:25,325 --> 00:45:31,100
And so now, just tell
me what to do here.

941
00:45:31,100 --> 00:45:33,950
AUDIENCE: Click something.

942
00:45:33,950 --> 00:45:34,750
GUEST SPEAKER: Of course.

943
00:45:34,750 --> 00:45:37,620
And that's [UNINTELLIGIBLE]

944
00:45:37,620 --> 00:45:38,300
AUDIENCE: [UNINTELLIGIBLE]

945
00:45:38,300 --> 00:45:39,550
AUDIENCE: [UNINTELLIGIBLE]

946
00:45:42,020 --> 00:45:43,890
Up into the slots up there.

947
00:45:43,890 --> 00:45:46,720
There's ones and zeroes.

948
00:45:46,720 --> 00:45:49,578
GUEST SPEAKER: Can we put that
crazy fish head second to the

949
00:45:49,578 --> 00:45:52,566
right on every one in
the equals spot?

950
00:45:52,566 --> 00:45:53,064
GUEST SPEAKER: Yes.

951
00:45:53,064 --> 00:45:54,558
You can.

952
00:45:54,558 --> 00:45:56,550
[INTERPOSING VOICES]

953
00:45:56,550 --> 00:45:59,040
GUEST SPEAKER: Want to try
it in the equals spot.

954
00:45:59,040 --> 00:46:03,540
GUEST SPEAKER: And go to
the equals on this one.

955
00:46:03,540 --> 00:46:04,110
GUEST SPEAKER: [UNINTELLIGIBLE]

956
00:46:04,110 --> 00:46:05,735
Just tell us what your
thinking was.

957
00:46:05,735 --> 00:46:07,116
AUDIENCE: Well, it looks
like we're trying

958
00:46:07,116 --> 00:46:08,970
to build math equations.

959
00:46:08,970 --> 00:46:13,896
And usually they end with
equals something.

960
00:46:13,896 --> 00:46:14,380
GUEST SPEAKER: Right.

961
00:46:14,380 --> 00:46:15,230
And you saw that.

962
00:46:15,230 --> 00:46:17,100
Now, just so you know, the
equation we're going to

963
00:46:17,100 --> 00:46:21,190
build-- you're right, and just
as a shortcut-- is not about

964
00:46:21,190 --> 00:46:21,348
arithmetic.

965
00:46:21,348 --> 00:46:22,056
The equations are simple.

966
00:46:22,056 --> 00:46:23,708
I'm not interested in drilling
kids on arithmetic.

967
00:46:23,708 --> 00:46:28,730
This is really about number
systems, and number systems

968
00:46:28,730 --> 00:46:29,910
are just simple systems.

969
00:46:29,910 --> 00:46:32,285
But there's also some algebra
that's going to go on this, we

970
00:46:32,285 --> 00:46:34,030
start to do this too.

971
00:46:34,030 --> 00:46:35,968
And then in higher levels of the
puzzle, [UNINTELLIGIBLE]

972
00:46:35,968 --> 00:46:39,160
you start doing stuff in
base two and base six.

973
00:46:39,160 --> 00:46:43,100
We sort of dovetailed with
the notion that our

974
00:46:43,100 --> 00:46:45,110
representations of numbers
are just symbolic.

975
00:46:45,110 --> 00:46:49,595
So zero, or one, or one
zero, doesn't have

976
00:46:49,595 --> 00:46:51,040
to always mean 10.

977
00:46:51,040 --> 00:46:52,810
It's just a symbol.

978
00:46:52,810 --> 00:46:53,303
Anyway.

979
00:46:53,303 --> 00:46:53,796
So now what should we do?

980
00:46:53,796 --> 00:46:56,261
AUDIENCE: Pac-Man
should be minus.

981
00:46:56,261 --> 00:47:01,191
Because the only ones with six
digits have Pac-Man as the

982
00:47:01,191 --> 00:47:01,684
third digit.

983
00:47:01,684 --> 00:47:03,163
PROFESSOR: Sounds good.

984
00:47:03,163 --> 00:47:04,220
GUEST SPEAKER: I'm not sure
which one is Pac-Man.

985
00:47:04,220 --> 00:47:05,670
AUDIENCE: Bottom right.

986
00:47:05,670 --> 00:47:06,150
GUEST SPEAKER: This guy?

987
00:47:06,150 --> 00:47:07,590
AUDIENCE: That guy's Pac-Man.

988
00:47:07,590 --> 00:47:10,950
Pac-Man with an underline.

989
00:47:10,950 --> 00:47:13,350
GUEST SPEAKER: I'm not sure
if we can actually

990
00:47:13,350 --> 00:47:16,230
put that one there.

991
00:47:16,230 --> 00:47:17,480
[INTERPOSING VOICES]

992
00:47:19,310 --> 00:47:22,730
AUDIENCE: If you look at the
top left, then what is the

993
00:47:22,730 --> 00:47:24,650
number two digit number that,
minus the last digit, gives a

994
00:47:24,650 --> 00:47:26,119
single-digit number.

995
00:47:26,119 --> 00:47:27,995
[UNINTELLIGIBLE]

996
00:47:27,995 --> 00:47:30,340
PROFESSOR: [UNINTELLIGIBLE]

997
00:47:30,340 --> 00:47:32,340
GUEST SPEAKER: Oh, that's
a good point, yeah.

998
00:47:32,340 --> 00:47:34,220
It has to be divided by
[UNINTELLIGIBLE].

999
00:47:34,220 --> 00:47:35,420
GUEST SPEAKER: But now what
you're really doing is

1000
00:47:35,420 --> 00:47:38,480
thinking about the structure
of math.

1001
00:47:38,480 --> 00:47:40,160
Which is exactly what--

1002
00:47:40,160 --> 00:47:44,710
AUDIENCE: So when you
say that's divided--

1003
00:47:44,710 --> 00:47:48,610
AUDIENCE: So, I'm going to
guess the banana is four?

1004
00:47:48,610 --> 00:47:50,530
GUEST SPEAKER: [UNINTELLIGIBLE]

1005
00:47:50,530 --> 00:47:52,420
GUEST SPEAKER: You
want to say why?

1006
00:47:52,420 --> 00:47:55,940
AUDIENCE: Because using that
same logic, that first

1007
00:47:55,940 --> 00:48:01,152
version, that something, n x
divided by x equals some

1008
00:48:01,152 --> 00:48:02,598
single digit number.

1009
00:48:02,598 --> 00:48:05,490
And I'm guessing x is 4.

1010
00:48:05,490 --> 00:48:05,980
GUEST SPEAKER: [UNINTELLIGIBLE]

1011
00:48:05,980 --> 00:48:10,830
GUEST SPEAKER: By the way, you
guys have avoided, and not

1012
00:48:10,830 --> 00:48:13,213
noticed a piece of information
which would make your work

1013
00:48:13,213 --> 00:48:16,010
even more--

1014
00:48:16,010 --> 00:48:18,010
AUDIENCE: Oh, the thing
at the top.

1015
00:48:18,010 --> 00:48:20,820
AUDIENCE: What's the
thing at the top?

1016
00:48:20,820 --> 00:48:23,050
AUDIENCE: The thing
at the bottom.

1017
00:48:23,050 --> 00:48:24,640
AUDIENCE: It could be two,
actually, as well.

1018
00:48:24,640 --> 00:48:25,830
AUDIENCE: What are all
the green things?

1019
00:48:25,830 --> 00:48:28,506
GUEST SPEAKER: Those are the
things you're shipping.

1020
00:48:28,506 --> 00:48:29,850
Those are jars of stuff,
of pepper.

1021
00:48:29,850 --> 00:48:30,860
AUDIENCE: Oh, those
make sense.

1022
00:48:30,860 --> 00:48:33,570
AUDIENCE: Banana something
banana.

1023
00:48:33,570 --> 00:48:34,892
GUEST SPEAKER: Banana
something--

1024
00:48:34,892 --> 00:48:38,510
AUDIENCE: Equals something
banana.

1025
00:48:38,510 --> 00:48:38,870
So--

1026
00:48:38,870 --> 00:48:40,120
[INTERPOSING VOICES]

1027
00:48:44,300 --> 00:48:45,670
AUDIENCE: Banana could
actually be two.

1028
00:48:45,670 --> 00:48:47,500
Because 12 divided by two
is equal to six. six.

1029
00:48:47,500 --> 00:48:48,750
[INTERPOSING VOICES]

1030
00:48:57,330 --> 00:49:00,580
GUEST SPEAKER: Oh, and in that
respect, that means a little--

1031
00:49:00,580 --> 00:49:02,610
AUDIENCE: Yeah, the four
squares are signs.

1032
00:49:02,610 --> 00:49:03,580
You try that?

1033
00:49:03,580 --> 00:49:04,420
[INTERPOSING VOICES]

1034
00:49:04,420 --> 00:49:06,980
AUDIENCE: It has
to be zero on--

1035
00:49:06,980 --> 00:49:08,070
GUEST SPEAKER: Every time
you play the game

1036
00:49:08,070 --> 00:49:08,530
the symbols are different.

1037
00:49:08,530 --> 00:49:10,270
They're the same symbols but
they're a different--

1038
00:49:10,270 --> 00:49:11,640
AUDIENCE: Triple backlash
should be-- oh.

1039
00:49:11,640 --> 00:49:12,890
[INTERPOSING VOICES]

1040
00:49:15,200 --> 00:49:16,180
GUEST SPEAKER: By the way,
you're still missing a piece

1041
00:49:16,180 --> 00:49:16,545
of information.

1042
00:49:16,545 --> 00:49:17,295
But that's OK.

1043
00:49:17,295 --> 00:49:19,050
That's what games
are all about.

1044
00:49:19,050 --> 00:49:19,440
[INTERPOSING VOICES]

1045
00:49:19,440 --> 00:49:20,850
AUDIENCE: So what's this
thing in the top left?

1046
00:49:20,850 --> 00:49:24,902
Can we put things in there and
press enter, and will it

1047
00:49:24,902 --> 00:49:26,878
evaluate them for us?

1048
00:49:26,878 --> 00:49:30,555
GUEST SPEAKER: Yeah, but right
now-- you're not done yet .

1049
00:49:30,555 --> 00:49:31,805
[UNINTELLIGIBLE].

1050
00:49:33,670 --> 00:49:36,730
AUDIENCE: Yeah, triple dash
is definitely one.

1051
00:49:36,730 --> 00:49:39,530
GUEST SPEAKER: Triple
dash is--

1052
00:49:39,530 --> 00:49:41,510
AUDIENCE: Oh, triple dash
is one, because one

1053
00:49:41,510 --> 00:49:44,660
times banana is banana.

1054
00:49:44,660 --> 00:49:46,490
GUEST SPEAKER: Unless
banana's zero.

1055
00:49:46,490 --> 00:49:47,740
[INTERPOSING VOICES]

1056
00:49:54,210 --> 00:49:56,050
AUDIENCE: Banana's
six, I think.

1057
00:49:56,050 --> 00:49:56,300
AUDIENCE: It could be five.

1058
00:49:56,300 --> 00:49:57,400
GUEST SPEAKER: I've never
done this game before--

1059
00:49:57,400 --> 00:49:58,240
no.

1060
00:49:58,240 --> 00:50:00,315
The fact that you're naming
all these symbols, because

1061
00:50:00,315 --> 00:50:02,080
they were just symbols.

1062
00:50:02,080 --> 00:50:03,330
[INTERPOSING VOICES]

1063
00:50:09,900 --> 00:50:10,430
AUDIENCE: I think banana's

1064
00:50:10,430 --> 00:50:11,670
[UNINTELLIGIBLE], because banana--

1065
00:50:11,670 --> 00:50:13,090
[INTERPOSING VOICES]

1066
00:50:13,090 --> 00:50:15,260
AUDIENCE: [UNINTELLIGIBLE]
banana squared is equal to

1067
00:50:15,260 --> 00:50:16,735
something times banana.

1068
00:50:16,735 --> 00:50:18,320
AUDIENCE: Not something
times--

1069
00:50:18,320 --> 00:50:19,750
AUDIENCE: So, yeah, it
could be 25 actually.

1070
00:50:19,750 --> 00:50:21,440
[INTERPOSING VOICES]

1071
00:50:21,440 --> 00:50:23,260
GUEST SPEAKER: Remember, I
didn't know the solution to

1072
00:50:23,260 --> 00:50:25,951
this when it came in, but I
actually have enough data to

1073
00:50:25,951 --> 00:50:27,600
know that you're wrong.

1074
00:50:27,600 --> 00:50:28,810
It's on the screen.

1075
00:50:28,810 --> 00:50:30,030
AUDIENCE: Banana
definitely is--

1076
00:50:30,030 --> 00:50:31,280
[INTERPOSING VOICES]

1077
00:50:33,490 --> 00:50:38,980
AUDIENCE: Five because banana
squared is anchor banana.

1078
00:50:38,980 --> 00:50:45,450
But flower banana divided by
banana is also an integer.

1079
00:50:45,450 --> 00:50:49,930
So if flower banana and anchor
banana are local banana, then

1080
00:50:49,930 --> 00:50:52,540
banana should be five
and not six.

1081
00:50:52,540 --> 00:50:56,530
because flower minus anchor
times banana.

1082
00:50:56,530 --> 00:50:58,910
GUEST SPEAKER: I love your
mental calculation.

1083
00:50:58,910 --> 00:51:01,110
[INTERPOSING VOICES]

1084
00:51:01,110 --> 00:51:02,805
GUEST SPEAKER: So you're
saying it's what?

1085
00:51:02,805 --> 00:51:04,460
AUDIENCE: Five.

1086
00:51:04,460 --> 00:51:05,930
GUEST SPEAKER: Well, that could
work, but you could have

1087
00:51:05,930 --> 00:51:07,550
done it in a simpler way.

1088
00:51:07,550 --> 00:51:10,270
Or you could have surmised
it, not known it, but--

1089
00:51:10,270 --> 00:51:12,230
remember, this is only the
first time you played,

1090
00:51:12,230 --> 00:51:14,140
subsequent times you'd have
other information.

1091
00:51:14,140 --> 00:51:15,390
[INTERPOSING VOICES]

1092
00:51:25,320 --> 00:51:27,379
GUEST SPEAKER: You're a member
of the group, so don't give

1093
00:51:27,379 --> 00:51:28,730
away [UNINTELLIGIBLE]

1094
00:51:28,730 --> 00:51:31,100
but in fact you're making--

1095
00:51:31,100 --> 00:51:32,350
[UNINTELLIGIBLE]

1096
00:51:35,370 --> 00:51:36,678
AUDIENCE: Anchor is 20.

1097
00:51:36,678 --> 00:51:37,902
AUDIENCE: Anchor is two.

1098
00:51:37,902 --> 00:51:38,680
AUDIENCE: Sorry, two.

1099
00:51:38,680 --> 00:51:41,100
Not 20.

1100
00:51:41,100 --> 00:51:42,970
AUDIENCE: Anchor's two.

1101
00:51:42,970 --> 00:51:46,920
Claw is zero.

1102
00:51:46,920 --> 00:51:47,660
GUEST SPEAKER: Where's claw?

1103
00:51:47,660 --> 00:51:50,940
AUDIENCE: Claw's the one
on the top left.

1104
00:51:50,940 --> 00:51:52,140
Of the squares that are left.

1105
00:51:52,140 --> 00:51:52,840
Left.

1106
00:51:52,840 --> 00:51:53,700
GUEST SPEAKER: Oh, you
mean brass circles.

1107
00:51:53,700 --> 00:51:54,950
That makes sense.

1108
00:51:58,150 --> 00:51:58,995
GUEST SPEAKER: Oh, that one.

1109
00:51:58,995 --> 00:51:59,670
AUDIENCE: That's zero.

1110
00:51:59,670 --> 00:52:01,870
Has to be zero.

1111
00:52:01,870 --> 00:52:02,990
PROFESSOR: Wait,
why is it zero?

1112
00:52:02,990 --> 00:52:04,480
AUDIENCE: Because if
you look at the

1113
00:52:04,480 --> 00:52:05,320
equation at the bottom--

1114
00:52:05,320 --> 00:52:06,630
GUEST SPEAKER: Oh, I'm looking
at the wrong spot.

1115
00:52:06,630 --> 00:52:07,880
[INTERPOSING VOICES]

1116
00:52:24,710 --> 00:52:26,250
AUDIENCE: Yeah, sigma's nine.

1117
00:52:26,250 --> 00:52:27,500
GUEST SPEAKER: [UNINTELLIGIBLE]

1118
00:52:33,610 --> 00:52:36,050
AUDIENCE: OK, so
[UNINTELLIGIBLE]

1119
00:52:36,050 --> 00:52:40,070
scythe is plus.

1120
00:52:40,070 --> 00:52:42,340
Scythe is plus.

1121
00:52:42,340 --> 00:52:44,550
AUDIENCE: No, it has
to be minus.

1122
00:52:44,550 --> 00:52:45,800
[INTERPOSING VOICES]

1123
00:53:27,069 --> 00:53:29,110
GUEST SPEAKER: Anyone who is
having trouble, and this

1124
00:53:29,110 --> 00:53:32,310
happens in a group.

1125
00:53:32,310 --> 00:53:33,210
So, anyone having trouble
following it as people were

1126
00:53:33,210 --> 00:53:35,270
making stuff up or
finding stuff.

1127
00:53:35,270 --> 00:53:36,205
Because if you did it's OK.

1128
00:53:36,205 --> 00:53:40,070
In fact, sometimes you've got to
play the game yourself for

1129
00:53:40,070 --> 00:53:40,970
it to make sense.

1130
00:53:40,970 --> 00:53:41,970
[UNINTELLIGIBLE]

1131
00:53:41,970 --> 00:53:43,210
I could have told you--

1132
00:53:43,210 --> 00:53:46,937
I actually think I could have
told you a lot about the game

1133
00:53:46,937 --> 00:53:47,080
going into it.

1134
00:53:47,080 --> 00:53:48,590
And there would still be a high
probability that when you

1135
00:53:48,590 --> 00:53:51,030
started playing it you would
have not absorbed

1136
00:53:51,030 --> 00:53:52,530
anything I'd said.

1137
00:53:52,530 --> 00:53:53,440
That's my experience.

1138
00:53:53,440 --> 00:53:55,893
I could almost give it all away
but you still don't get

1139
00:53:55,893 --> 00:53:56,310
it until they play it.

1140
00:53:56,310 --> 00:53:58,260
PROFESSOR: So they
didn't know--

1141
00:53:58,260 --> 00:53:59,410
GUEST SPEAKER: [UNINTELLIGIBLE]

1142
00:53:59,410 --> 00:54:01,194
AUDIENCE: Beta delta upside
down is eight.

1143
00:54:01,194 --> 00:54:02,444
[INTERPOSING VOICES]

1144
00:54:08,906 --> 00:54:12,690
AUDIENCE: Can we
enter that now?

1145
00:54:12,690 --> 00:54:14,500
AUDIENCE: Oh, so now you have
to type in one times

1146
00:54:14,500 --> 00:54:15,010
whatever-- equals--

1147
00:54:15,010 --> 00:54:16,570
GUEST SPEAKER: You've got
to type in what this is.

1148
00:54:16,570 --> 00:54:18,430
So and this is actually
getting at another

1149
00:54:18,430 --> 00:54:19,680
representation.

1150
00:54:23,590 --> 00:54:24,820
AUDIENCE: Eight plus nine.

1151
00:54:24,820 --> 00:54:27,468
AUDIENCE: Eight plus
nine is 17.

1152
00:54:27,468 --> 00:54:28,884
GUEST SPEAKER: How, here you
don't have to actually

1153
00:54:28,884 --> 00:54:30,300
remember the [UNINTELLIGIBLE]

1154
00:54:34,920 --> 00:54:36,170
AUDIENCE: Just divide
it by six.

1155
00:54:50,588 --> 00:54:51,838
AUDIENCE: [UNINTELLIGIBLE]

1156
00:54:55,100 --> 00:54:56,550
AUDIENCE: It's puzzle mode.

1157
00:54:56,550 --> 00:54:58,686
GUEST SPEAKER: And by the
way, it could take

1158
00:54:58,686 --> 00:55:00,001
it in either order.

1159
00:55:04,438 --> 00:55:05,917
AUDIENCE: Yeah, I agree.

1160
00:55:05,917 --> 00:55:07,167
Equals [UNINTELLIGIBLE].

1161
00:55:10,354 --> 00:55:12,819
GUEST SPEAKER: I think this
level's only addition

1162
00:55:12,819 --> 00:55:14,069
[UNINTELLIGIBLE].

1163
00:55:17,290 --> 00:55:18,540
[INTERPOSING VOICES]

1164
00:55:21,750 --> 00:55:25,470
AUDIENCE: Or we could
do 10 minus two.

1165
00:55:25,470 --> 00:55:26,090
GUEST SPEAKER: Anyway.

1166
00:55:26,090 --> 00:55:27,730
[UNINTELLIGIBLE]

1167
00:55:27,730 --> 00:55:29,630
you were doing algebra.

1168
00:55:29,630 --> 00:55:31,160
When you were solving
for those numbers,

1169
00:55:31,160 --> 00:55:32,456
you were doing algebra.

1170
00:55:32,456 --> 00:55:35,916
You were really thinking about
x and the structure of the

1171
00:55:35,916 --> 00:55:39,800
math and the numerical
quality of it.

1172
00:55:39,800 --> 00:55:43,109
This is simpler, but it's still
getting at the fact that

1173
00:55:43,109 --> 00:55:45,001
there are multiple ways of
representing numbers

1174
00:55:45,001 --> 00:55:45,474
[UNINTELLIGIBLE].

1175
00:55:45,474 --> 00:55:46,970
AUDIENCE: Is there
any mechanic to

1176
00:55:46,970 --> 00:55:47,770
prevent brute force?

1177
00:55:47,770 --> 00:55:50,850
GUEST SPEAKER: Yes, those
lights go out.

1178
00:55:50,850 --> 00:55:53,500
But, you do earn points along
the way in the game if you

1179
00:55:53,500 --> 00:55:54,970
make some progress.

1180
00:55:54,970 --> 00:55:58,715
And so, none of these puzzles
are brick walls.

1181
00:55:58,715 --> 00:55:59,940
Because you can always play
multiple puzzles at once.

1182
00:55:59,940 --> 00:56:03,750
You can leave this puzzle,
go to another puzzle.

1183
00:56:03,750 --> 00:56:06,140
And, if you make any progress
at all, you're accumulating

1184
00:56:06,140 --> 00:56:07,014
points for the end
of the game.

1185
00:56:07,014 --> 00:56:08,762
You could actually get to the
end of the game story without

1186
00:56:08,762 --> 00:56:09,900
having solved any puzzles.

1187
00:56:09,900 --> 00:56:11,490
Takes a long time.

1188
00:56:11,490 --> 00:56:13,280
The rewards are there
for doing well.

1189
00:56:13,280 --> 00:56:16,255
And there are rewards for doing
well, but there isn't

1190
00:56:16,255 --> 00:56:18,195
punishment for not doing well.

1191
00:56:18,195 --> 00:56:21,110
At least in sort of a--

1192
00:56:21,110 --> 00:56:24,347
we don't say you can't,
we don't make you

1193
00:56:24,347 --> 00:56:25,305
stop in your tracks.

1194
00:56:25,305 --> 00:56:26,742
AUDIENCE: [UNINTELLIGIBLE]
you can do it again.

1195
00:56:26,742 --> 00:56:27,221
GUEST SPEAKER: Yes,
that's right.

1196
00:56:27,221 --> 00:56:28,025
You can do it again
instantaneously.

1197
00:56:28,025 --> 00:56:32,760
And there is no cost in the
game to having failed

1198
00:56:32,760 --> 00:56:34,770
repeatedly.

1199
00:56:34,770 --> 00:56:37,845
If you eventually solve it, you
end up with the same score

1200
00:56:37,845 --> 00:56:42,045
whether you solved it on the
20th time or the first time.

1201
00:56:42,045 --> 00:56:43,590
That's really what problem
solving is about.

1202
00:56:43,590 --> 00:56:45,800
It's not about being
the fastest.

1203
00:56:45,800 --> 00:56:49,600
It's just about learning
how to solve things.

1204
00:56:49,600 --> 00:56:52,435
Speed is overrated
[UNINTELLIGIBLE].

1205
00:56:52,435 --> 00:56:54,742
And in math it's
very overrated.

1206
00:56:54,742 --> 00:56:56,598
Kids [UNINTELLIGIBLE]

1207
00:56:56,598 --> 00:56:59,640
calculations in their head.

1208
00:56:59,640 --> 00:57:00,370
It's just more of this.

1209
00:57:00,370 --> 00:57:02,050
And the entire level's--

1210
00:57:02,050 --> 00:57:04,250
we came up with representations
of

1211
00:57:04,250 --> 00:57:08,340
subtraction, which is that you
have a large number, you have

1212
00:57:08,340 --> 00:57:10,958
10 jars and five of
them are empty.

1213
00:57:10,958 --> 00:57:14,227
So it's 10 minus five.

1214
00:57:14,227 --> 00:57:14,700
[INTERPOSING VOICES]

1215
00:57:14,700 --> 00:57:16,890
AUDIENCE: How is division?

1216
00:57:16,890 --> 00:57:19,542
AUDIENCE: Are they
10 rows of jars?

1217
00:57:19,542 --> 00:57:20,940
And the rows are empty?

1218
00:57:20,940 --> 00:57:22,995
GUEST SPEAKER: Yeah, I
think it's the same--

1219
00:57:22,995 --> 00:57:24,975
I think that's it.

1220
00:57:24,975 --> 00:57:27,950
I think that's the same.

1221
00:57:27,950 --> 00:57:32,914
It's in a grid pattern with
some [UNINTELLIGIBLE].

1222
00:57:32,914 --> 00:57:36,395
AUDIENCE: And I guess there's
[UNINTELLIGIBLE]

1223
00:57:36,395 --> 00:57:41,130
but do you have any algebra
as such in this format?

1224
00:57:41,130 --> 00:57:41,780
GUEST SPEAKER: No.

1225
00:57:41,780 --> 00:57:44,040
But what we encourage
is that--

1226
00:57:44,040 --> 00:57:45,700
so what comes with this is
material for teachers to

1227
00:57:45,700 --> 00:57:47,394
relate this to the curriculum.

1228
00:57:47,394 --> 00:57:50,787
And what we really want to
happen is that kids have

1229
00:57:50,787 --> 00:57:52,388
played the game before
they get the subject.

1230
00:57:52,388 --> 00:57:55,184
And when the teacher introduces
symbol systems in

1231
00:57:55,184 --> 00:57:58,770
base six or whatever relates
to this, instead of saying,

1232
00:57:58,770 --> 00:58:01,100
all right, we're starting a
new unit, you again know

1233
00:58:01,100 --> 00:58:04,090
nothing, you're starting again
at square one and have to

1234
00:58:04,090 --> 00:58:05,990
start all over again
with something new.

1235
00:58:05,990 --> 00:58:08,690
Instead, the teacher comes in
and says, I want to introduce

1236
00:58:08,690 --> 00:58:11,580
a new concept, but it's one
that you've really already

1237
00:58:11,580 --> 00:58:13,550
begun to master.

1238
00:58:13,550 --> 00:58:16,740
And it's called bases.

1239
00:58:16,740 --> 00:58:18,290
[UNINTELLIGIBLE]

1240
00:58:18,290 --> 00:58:19,443
so how did you solve this?

1241
00:58:19,443 --> 00:58:22,680
What was going on
in this game?

1242
00:58:22,680 --> 00:58:25,470
And they have a conversation
about what they already know,

1243
00:58:25,470 --> 00:58:29,082
as a way of leveraging into--

1244
00:58:29,082 --> 00:58:33,276
I mean, things that I
arguably don't know.

1245
00:58:33,276 --> 00:58:36,080
Again, I would argue that
[UNINTELLIGIBLE]

1246
00:58:36,080 --> 00:58:37,240
you have things in cartons.

1247
00:58:37,240 --> 00:58:42,420
So a carton of six jars plus
some left over would be--

1248
00:58:42,420 --> 00:58:45,170
a carton of six jars plus three
left over would be one,

1249
00:58:45,170 --> 00:58:47,000
three, basically.

1250
00:58:47,000 --> 00:58:50,340
So anyway.

1251
00:58:50,340 --> 00:58:53,190
The point is that the kids begin
to build this robust

1252
00:58:53,190 --> 00:58:54,500
conceptual understanding.

1253
00:58:54,500 --> 00:58:57,327
And hopefully there's a
playfulness so that when the

1254
00:58:57,327 --> 00:59:00,990
teacher talks about it, that
some of them may actually feel

1255
00:59:00,990 --> 00:59:01,320
good about it.

1256
00:59:01,320 --> 00:59:05,265
Instead of, here's one more
reading --you'll never be a

1257
00:59:05,265 --> 00:59:06,660
mathematician.

1258
00:59:06,660 --> 00:59:09,170
I think math education is
largely designed to gate

1259
00:59:09,170 --> 00:59:12,390
everybody so that at the
end of high school,

1260
00:59:12,390 --> 00:59:13,984
[UNINTELLIGIBLE] population
is good at math.

1261
00:59:13,984 --> 00:59:17,721
Which means that we're taking
12 years teaching 93% of the

1262
00:59:17,721 --> 00:59:19,017
population that's no good at
math and they should stop

1263
00:59:19,017 --> 00:59:19,266
doing that.

1264
00:59:19,266 --> 00:59:22,382
I don't know why we'd waste 12
years if you could just tell

1265
00:59:22,382 --> 00:59:23,968
them to go to kindergarten.

1266
00:59:23,968 --> 00:59:26,060
But that's what what
we end up doing.

1267
00:59:26,060 --> 00:59:27,310
Anyway, I think that's true
of every subject.

1268
00:59:30,680 --> 00:59:31,830
I'd like to turn it around.

1269
00:59:31,830 --> 00:59:33,934
Everyone says there's things
about math I can do.

1270
00:59:33,934 --> 00:59:36,339
[UNINTELLIGIBLE]

1271
00:59:36,339 --> 00:59:42,780
PROFESSOR: Can you tell us a
little bit more about how that

1272
00:59:42,780 --> 00:59:43,910
process went?

1273
00:59:43,910 --> 00:59:44,880
GUEST SPEAKER: Sure.

1274
00:59:44,880 --> 00:59:47,660
And I also wanted to provide a
little extra nuance to one of

1275
00:59:47,660 --> 00:59:51,540
the questions about what if you
just brute-force your way

1276
00:59:51,540 --> 00:59:51,780
through it.

1277
00:59:51,780 --> 00:59:56,878
In the higher levels, it won't
tell you when you put a symbol

1278
00:59:56,878 --> 00:59:58,324
in a slot, whether it's
correct or not.

1279
00:59:58,324 --> 00:59:59,770
So--

1280
00:59:59,770 --> 01:00:02,180
GUEST SPEAKER: Which actually,
you could learn something

1281
01:00:02,180 --> 01:00:02,662
interesting.

1282
01:00:02,662 --> 01:00:05,554
Because you could start doing
something and [UNINTELLIGIBLE]

1283
01:00:05,554 --> 01:00:07,480
something that doesn't add
up, that's actually new.

1284
01:00:07,480 --> 01:00:10,340
You're learning something.

1285
01:00:10,340 --> 01:00:14,720
So, there's 10 puzzles
or-- how many?

1286
01:00:14,720 --> 01:00:15,045
GUEST SPEAKER: Nine.

1287
01:00:15,045 --> 01:00:22,980
AUDIENCE: Nine puzzles, and we
came up with nine plus x, and

1288
01:00:22,980 --> 01:00:29,390
some of that was slated for
school admission and

1289
01:00:29,390 --> 01:00:31,350
we never got there.

1290
01:00:31,350 --> 01:00:36,413
And some of that x was puzzles
or activities that we decided

1291
01:00:36,413 --> 01:00:38,210
were not as compelling
as the others.

1292
01:00:38,210 --> 01:00:41,528
In our process for that, we
did a hybrid approach with

1293
01:00:41,528 --> 01:00:43,750
paper and computer
prototyping.

1294
01:00:43,750 --> 01:00:48,076
In general the rule is, if there
can be paper prototypes,

1295
01:00:48,076 --> 01:00:48,801
paper prototype it.

1296
01:00:48,801 --> 01:00:49,767
Because it's so much faster.

1297
01:00:49,767 --> 01:00:53,148
But there are certain kinds of
activities that really can't.

1298
01:00:53,148 --> 01:00:56,529
So for instance, this one is
perfect for paper prototyping.

1299
01:00:56,529 --> 01:00:58,501
You just take out a
piece of paper and

1300
01:00:58,501 --> 01:00:59,745
a pen and you create--

1301
01:00:59,745 --> 01:01:02,756
I mean, you have to create some
of these equations so

1302
01:01:02,756 --> 01:01:05,310
that you then have a system
of equations to solve.

1303
01:01:05,310 --> 01:01:08,500
But once you've created some of
those is, as would need to

1304
01:01:08,500 --> 01:01:12,710
be done whether it's a paper or
a computer prototype, then

1305
01:01:12,710 --> 01:01:15,137
it's trivial to put it in front
of someone with paper.

1306
01:01:15,137 --> 01:01:19,220
So this is an example of
something where we would, for

1307
01:01:19,220 --> 01:01:23,960
the first round, test internally
with just symbols

1308
01:01:23,960 --> 01:01:25,030
and numbers.

1309
01:01:25,030 --> 01:01:28,175
And then probably
we would do--

1310
01:01:28,175 --> 01:01:31,110
we might even test that version
with people in our

1311
01:01:31,110 --> 01:01:31,950
target audience.

1312
01:01:31,950 --> 01:01:35,180
But probably we would try to
do some rudimentary art

1313
01:01:35,180 --> 01:01:38,530
treatment before we put it in
front of people, just so

1314
01:01:38,530 --> 01:01:40,785
there's a little bit of context
and it looks a little

1315
01:01:40,785 --> 01:01:41,990
bit more like a game.

1316
01:01:41,990 --> 01:01:43,450
And then--

1317
01:01:43,450 --> 01:01:44,370
GUEST SPEAKER: So
that we try to--

1318
01:01:44,370 --> 01:01:48,483
if there's story, this one has
less story about it, but if

1319
01:01:48,483 --> 01:01:51,205
there's story, as there are in
some puzzles, we actually try

1320
01:01:51,205 --> 01:01:51,635
to act it out.

1321
01:01:51,635 --> 01:01:52,922
[UNINTELLIGIBLE]

1322
01:01:52,922 --> 01:01:54,410
resistance to doing it.

1323
01:01:54,410 --> 01:01:56,890
So act out the character.

1324
01:01:56,890 --> 01:01:59,635
You're the computer, when
[UNINTELLIGIBLE]

1325
01:01:59,635 --> 01:02:01,806
and so even if it's just a
character giving a response to

1326
01:02:01,806 --> 01:02:03,391
something that the
player does.

1327
01:02:03,391 --> 01:02:06,255
You try to do it in character,
you try to get a sense of

1328
01:02:06,255 --> 01:02:08,870
what-- because I think, even
in that kind of rudimentary

1329
01:02:08,870 --> 01:02:12,050
form you're engaging the
player's imagination so you

1330
01:02:12,050 --> 01:02:14,930
know whether or not they're
interested in this character

1331
01:02:14,930 --> 01:02:17,355
or the idea [UNINTELLIGIBLE].

1332
01:02:17,355 --> 01:02:20,265
GUEST SPEAKER: Because I do
master [UNINTELLIGIBLE].

1333
01:02:20,265 --> 01:02:23,660
GUEST SPEAKER: And like a
dungeon master you need to

1334
01:02:23,660 --> 01:02:26,610
prepare, because it's hard to
be the computer without also

1335
01:02:26,610 --> 01:02:29,635
being the bottleneck
if you're a human.

1336
01:02:29,635 --> 01:02:33,660
And in fact we've done some
games, not represented here,

1337
01:02:33,660 --> 01:02:36,480
we've done some games that are
real time, that if you want to

1338
01:02:36,480 --> 01:02:40,508
prototype with people, then
especially on paper, and you

1339
01:02:40,508 --> 01:02:42,640
want to keep things moving,
then you need to have more

1340
01:02:42,640 --> 01:02:45,278
than one person be the computer,
because there's just

1341
01:02:45,278 --> 01:02:48,710
too much to track for one
person to do it all.

1342
01:02:48,710 --> 01:02:49,570
Or if you want to do--

1343
01:02:49,570 --> 01:02:53,566
sometimes we do hybrids, where
we'll do a computer prototype

1344
01:02:53,566 --> 01:02:56,440
but there's aspects of the game
that are not represented

1345
01:02:56,440 --> 01:02:58,070
through the interface or that
logically we have a model, so

1346
01:02:58,070 --> 01:03:02,180
we'll do players
directing human

1347
01:03:02,180 --> 01:03:06,190
interactions with the computer.

1348
01:03:06,190 --> 01:03:09,092
Not players, designers,
influencing those

1349
01:03:09,092 --> 01:03:10,342
interactions.

1350
01:03:12,459 --> 01:03:16,905
So anyway, this is a game that
moved pretty much all the way

1351
01:03:16,905 --> 01:03:20,175
to final design on paper, and
then went straight to

1352
01:03:20,175 --> 01:03:20,730
implementation.

1353
01:03:20,730 --> 01:03:25,436
Some of the other games-- for
instance, there's a game--

1354
01:03:25,436 --> 01:03:28,412
do you want to show
[UNINTELLIGIBLE].

1355
01:03:28,412 --> 01:03:29,900
GUEST SPEAKER: [UNINTELLIGIBLE],
yeah.

1356
01:03:29,900 --> 01:03:33,868
GUEST SPEAKER: That's an example
of a game that's a

1357
01:03:33,868 --> 01:03:37,990
little bit harder to think about
playing just on paper.

1358
01:03:37,990 --> 01:03:38,520
GUEST SPEAKER: [UNINTELLIGIBLE]
we

1359
01:03:38,520 --> 01:03:39,567
implemented this early.

1360
01:03:39,567 --> 01:03:41,058
GUEST SPEAKER: Yeah, we did.

1361
01:03:48,520 --> 01:03:54,740
GUEST SPEAKER: So this is a game
about modular arithmetic

1362
01:03:54,740 --> 01:03:59,690
and common multiples and
that sort of thing.

1363
01:03:59,690 --> 01:04:01,230
So it's very hard to
see on the screen.

1364
01:04:01,230 --> 01:04:03,403
In the upper left there
is an avatar.

1365
01:04:03,403 --> 01:04:05,318
GUEST SPEAKER: That's you.

1366
01:04:05,318 --> 01:04:06,568
GUEST SPEAKER: [UNINTELLIGIBLE]

1367
01:04:08,570 --> 01:04:11,320
GUEST SPEAKER: And you know from
the story that your goal

1368
01:04:11,320 --> 01:04:14,052
is to get to the golden
eggs and avoid the

1369
01:04:14,052 --> 01:04:14,534
[UNINTELLIGIBLE].

1370
01:04:14,534 --> 01:04:15,980
That much you know.

1371
01:04:15,980 --> 01:04:21,790
And that you're in a factory
where they make stuff.

1372
01:04:21,790 --> 01:04:24,100
AUDIENCE: Do you move
your avatar?

1373
01:04:24,100 --> 01:04:25,350
GUEST SPEAKER: [UNINTELLIGIBLE]

1374
01:04:40,440 --> 01:04:41,690
[INTERPOSING VOICES]

1375
01:04:50,390 --> 01:04:53,770
GUEST SPEAKER: There is one
flaw, by the way, in the

1376
01:04:53,770 --> 01:04:56,420
[UNINTELLIGIBLE]

1377
01:04:56,420 --> 01:04:58,426
interface, because people don't
realize they have to

1378
01:04:58,426 --> 01:05:00,580
click to get their guy
onto that thing.

1379
01:05:00,580 --> 01:05:04,190
And it was supposed to start
with the [UNINTELLIGIBLE]

1380
01:05:04,190 --> 01:05:07,470
right where he was, that people
would [UNINTELLIGIBLE]

1381
01:05:07,470 --> 01:05:07,623
click.

1382
01:05:07,623 --> 01:05:10,410
Because now by-- what
should I try now.

1383
01:05:10,410 --> 01:05:10,906
AUDIENCE: Four.

1384
01:05:10,906 --> 01:05:12,394
GUEST SPEAKER: We're
going to go--

1385
01:05:12,394 --> 01:05:16,362
AUDIENCE: Four or nine.

1386
01:05:16,362 --> 01:05:18,346
AUDIENCE: Six.

1387
01:05:18,346 --> 01:05:18,842
AUDIENCE: Four.

1388
01:05:18,842 --> 01:05:19,834
Four.

1389
01:05:19,834 --> 01:05:20,826
AUDIENCE: Six.

1390
01:05:20,826 --> 01:05:23,306
Then you can let him get
the [UNINTELLIGIBLE].

1391
01:05:23,306 --> 01:05:25,290
GUEST SPEAKER: I'll
go for six.

1392
01:05:29,490 --> 01:05:31,280
Bam.

1393
01:05:31,280 --> 01:05:32,400
Four is a subject that--

1394
01:05:32,400 --> 01:05:33,880
GUEST SPEAKER: Oh, can we
move [UNINTELLIGIBLE].

1395
01:05:33,880 --> 01:05:34,870
GUEST SPEAKER: But you'll notice
that that's all in

1396
01:05:34,870 --> 01:05:35,510
different amounts.

1397
01:05:35,510 --> 01:05:38,930
And so it's really that
modular arithmetic.

1398
01:05:38,930 --> 01:05:43,480
So 12 will take me once around
on one of them, but

1399
01:05:43,480 --> 01:05:45,736
[UNINTELLIGIBLE]
on another one.

1400
01:05:45,736 --> 01:05:48,582
And you start doing simultaneous
equations to

1401
01:05:48,582 --> 01:05:50,270
solve this.

1402
01:05:50,270 --> 01:05:51,960
This level's hard.

1403
01:05:51,960 --> 01:05:53,870
I think maybe the hardest puzzle
we designed in the

1404
01:05:53,870 --> 01:05:57,870
whole game is level three of
this, where every step you've

1405
01:05:57,870 --> 01:06:01,460
got to align two bridges.

1406
01:06:01,460 --> 01:06:02,850
It's serious work.

1407
01:06:02,850 --> 01:06:05,602
AUDIENCE: Are you trying
to avoid that monster?

1408
01:06:05,602 --> 01:06:06,250
GUEST SPEAKER: Yeah, you've
got to avoid the monster.

1409
01:06:06,250 --> 01:06:06,690
GUEST SPEAKER: Which
isn't always hard.

1410
01:06:06,690 --> 01:06:09,890
But you have to keep in mind,
sometimes it needs, instead of

1411
01:06:09,890 --> 01:06:12,630
going around once, particularly
one on the nine

1412
01:06:12,630 --> 01:06:20,030
thing, maybe you go 10 and
he'll always go on

1413
01:06:20,030 --> 01:06:20,665
[UNINTELLIGIBLE]

1414
01:06:20,665 --> 01:06:22,214
shows up, to make
[UNINTELLIGIBLE]

1415
01:06:22,214 --> 01:06:23,660
to show up and [UNINTELLIGIBLE].

1416
01:06:23,660 --> 01:06:26,070
So this is really the
[UNINTELLIGIBLE].

1417
01:06:26,070 --> 01:06:27,034
GUEST SPEAKER: As of what?

1418
01:06:27,034 --> 01:06:28,284
GUEST SPEAKER: Yes.

1419
01:06:30,408 --> 01:06:31,960
GUEST SPEAKER: Anyway, again
[UNINTELLIGIBLE]

1420
01:06:31,960 --> 01:06:34,100
you can say, hey,
[UNINTELLIGIBLE]

1421
01:06:34,100 --> 01:06:35,530
math, school math at all.

1422
01:06:35,530 --> 01:06:39,230
There's no school math
in this game.

1423
01:06:39,230 --> 01:06:40,740
But I think there are
really interesting

1424
01:06:40,740 --> 01:06:43,030
things to think about.

1425
01:06:43,030 --> 01:06:43,980
GUEST SPEAKER: [UNINTELLIGIBLE]

1426
01:06:43,980 --> 01:06:45,550
said with that character.

1427
01:06:45,550 --> 01:06:46,870
If he walks or not.

1428
01:06:46,870 --> 01:06:49,445
I think we [UNINTELLIGIBLE]

1429
01:06:49,445 --> 01:06:49,780
anyway.

1430
01:06:49,780 --> 01:06:51,680
But you have to keep
in mind, there are

1431
01:06:51,680 --> 01:06:52,160
two forms of learning.

1432
01:06:52,160 --> 01:06:54,470
One is learning the game,
how to play the game.

1433
01:06:54,470 --> 01:06:56,940
And the other one is learning--
there's a problem

1434
01:06:56,940 --> 01:06:58,580
solving, you've got a
puzzle in the game.

1435
01:06:58,580 --> 01:07:02,010
And I think it's sometimes like
special education games.

1436
01:07:02,010 --> 01:07:04,440
It's so easy to mix this.

1437
01:07:04,440 --> 01:07:07,190
Because sometimes you make the
coolest educational game and

1438
01:07:07,190 --> 01:07:08,260
it's really interesting.

1439
01:07:08,260 --> 01:07:10,000
But [UNINTELLIGIBLE]

1440
01:07:10,000 --> 01:07:13,180
character wouldn't move if you
don't press the mouse button.

1441
01:07:13,180 --> 01:07:16,885
So he would always stand there
in the beginning and he would

1442
01:07:16,885 --> 01:07:17,650
get attacked.

1443
01:07:17,650 --> 01:07:20,770
And I think the mixture of
both forms of learning is

1444
01:07:20,770 --> 01:07:23,030
quite interesting to keep in
mind when you're prototyping.

1445
01:07:23,030 --> 01:07:25,310
GUEST SPEAKER: Yeah, there's
two answers to that.

1446
01:07:25,310 --> 01:07:27,000
One is, I never think.

1447
01:07:27,000 --> 01:07:29,880
just because we want people to
think hard, I don't think the

1448
01:07:29,880 --> 01:07:31,080
interface should be the
thing that they're

1449
01:07:31,080 --> 01:07:31,560
thinking hard about.

1450
01:07:31,560 --> 01:07:35,350
It's always tempting to say,
oh, that's a really

1451
01:07:35,350 --> 01:07:36,480
hard thing to solve.

1452
01:07:36,480 --> 01:07:38,240
How do I make him jump?

1453
01:07:38,240 --> 01:07:42,364
But no, I think generally it
should not be hard to figure

1454
01:07:42,364 --> 01:07:42,830
out how to make him jump.

1455
01:07:42,830 --> 01:07:46,560
Or walk left or right, or
how to open a door.

1456
01:07:46,560 --> 01:07:50,040
Unless that's a puzzle, and it's
easy to delude yourself

1457
01:07:50,040 --> 01:07:51,552
that by making the
interface hard...

1458
01:07:51,552 --> 01:07:54,793
On the other hand, there is this
other challenge, which is

1459
01:07:54,793 --> 01:07:56,800
that kids do have different
degrees of

1460
01:07:56,800 --> 01:07:58,125
literacy around games.

1461
01:07:58,125 --> 01:08:00,722
And it's hard to figure out
where the sweet spot is.

1462
01:08:00,722 --> 01:08:02,935
That's one I don't have
an easy answer for.

1463
01:08:02,935 --> 01:08:04,570
Because some large percentage
of the audience naturally

1464
01:08:04,570 --> 01:08:07,572
knows, try and get to the end.

1465
01:08:07,572 --> 01:08:09,130
Knows what winning means.

1466
01:08:09,130 --> 01:08:10,870
But there's some
kids who don't.

1467
01:08:10,870 --> 01:08:13,330
And the question is, if you
make the game, if you bend

1468
01:08:13,330 --> 01:08:15,870
over backwards--

1469
01:08:15,870 --> 01:08:19,819
I watched my mother play this,
and it was horrible.

1470
01:08:19,819 --> 01:08:24,484
Because she just was totally
clueless about where to go.

1471
01:08:24,484 --> 01:08:27,690
But I think if I try to set
up the game to work for my

1472
01:08:27,690 --> 01:08:31,660
mother, you can only work with
all this explicit instruction.

1473
01:08:31,660 --> 01:08:36,330
So hopefully with kids it's
less of an issue.

1474
01:08:36,330 --> 01:08:38,370
There's more, I think, uniform
game literacy.

1475
01:08:38,370 --> 01:08:39,419
But it's always a challenge.

1476
01:08:39,419 --> 01:08:41,000
No game appeals to everybody.

1477
01:08:41,000 --> 01:08:43,880
And you do want--

1478
01:08:43,880 --> 01:08:45,365
I don't think those of us who
make learning games have a

1479
01:08:45,365 --> 01:08:46,399
good answer to that.

1480
01:08:46,399 --> 01:08:48,390
I don't think we can ever make
a game that every kid would

1481
01:08:48,390 --> 01:08:52,397
play with equal--

1482
01:08:52,397 --> 01:08:55,430
we should never claim
that we're going

1483
01:08:55,430 --> 01:08:59,103
to get 100% on that.

1484
01:08:59,103 --> 01:09:02,825
PROFESSOR: One thing that I know
that you've noticed is

1485
01:09:02,825 --> 01:09:08,044
the amount of tolerance that
kids and adults have for

1486
01:09:08,044 --> 01:09:10,580
frustration, when--

1487
01:09:10,580 --> 01:09:14,200
I've seen kids say,
I hate this game.

1488
01:09:14,200 --> 01:09:20,232
This game is too hard and
they'll just keep going at it.

1489
01:09:20,232 --> 01:09:24,624
Whereas the adults have this
tendency to get really

1490
01:09:24,624 --> 01:09:27,552
embarrassed when they can't
solve it first time.

1491
01:09:27,552 --> 01:09:30,689
GUEST SPEAKER: It happens
when you're 26.

1492
01:09:30,689 --> 01:09:33,060
You suddenly sit down and
say, well, I'm not

1493
01:09:33,060 --> 01:09:34,080
very good at this.

1494
01:09:34,080 --> 01:09:38,223
You may be a gamer all your
life, but it's having another

1495
01:09:38,223 --> 01:09:40,211
adult watching you.

1496
01:09:40,211 --> 01:09:43,855
There's some point or another
where you suddenly say, I'm

1497
01:09:43,855 --> 01:09:44,187
not good at this.

1498
01:09:44,187 --> 01:09:46,175
I don't know why it happens.

1499
01:09:46,175 --> 01:09:48,660
[UNINTELLIGIBLE]

1500
01:09:48,660 --> 01:09:49,910
AUDIENCE: [UNINTELLIGIBLE]

1501
01:09:53,630 --> 01:09:55,650
AUDIENCE: Can you do
negative numbers?

1502
01:09:55,650 --> 01:09:56,983
GUEST SPEAKER: Not
in this one, no.

1503
01:09:56,983 --> 01:09:59,298
That's a good idea, though.

1504
01:09:59,298 --> 01:10:00,690
AUDIENCE: [UNINTELLIGIBLE]

1505
01:10:00,690 --> 01:10:02,090
AUDIENCE: In much of the
arithmetic you could always do

1506
01:10:02,090 --> 01:10:04,312
it as put in a larger number
and [UNINTELLIGIBLE]

1507
01:10:04,312 --> 01:10:05,764
GUEST SPEAKER: That's right.

1508
01:10:05,764 --> 01:10:08,184
PROFESSOR: I have a question
for [UNINTELLIGIBLE].

1509
01:10:08,184 --> 01:10:11,572
Because in some of them we were
hearing from you guys

1510
01:10:11,572 --> 01:10:15,626
about coming, more or less from
a game design angle into

1511
01:10:15,626 --> 01:10:19,618
designing games as a
learning purpose.

1512
01:10:19,618 --> 01:10:21,614
And you kind of [UNINTELLIGIBLE]

1513
01:10:21,614 --> 01:10:22,612
the other way around.

1514
01:10:22,612 --> 01:10:24,608
You came in from the
[UNINTELLIGIBLE].

1515
01:10:24,608 --> 01:10:28,766
Are there things to keep in
mind when you're working

1516
01:10:28,766 --> 01:10:31,095
across disciplines, that
game designers know?

1517
01:10:34,610 --> 01:10:38,450
GUEST SPEAKER: So, I think one
more difference that I still

1518
01:10:38,450 --> 01:10:42,330
have, or see between the way I
approach games and the way

1519
01:10:42,330 --> 01:10:46,170
educational games approach games
design, I'm more focused

1520
01:10:46,170 --> 01:10:49,030
on learning as an experience,
more in abstract form.

1521
01:10:49,030 --> 01:10:51,030
That doesn't mean that I
wouldn't be invested in that,

1522
01:10:51,030 --> 01:10:54,285
but that's not what I've been
working on yet here.

1523
01:10:54,285 --> 01:10:56,530
So for instance, after
that it was--

1524
01:10:56,530 --> 01:11:00,780
so the research question was
how, how can players overcome

1525
01:11:00,780 --> 01:11:04,550
expectations that are wrong.

1526
01:11:04,550 --> 01:11:09,620
And so the idea was not to use
educational stuff like numbers

1527
01:11:09,620 --> 01:11:14,130
or whatever, but more, can we
develop patterns in games that

1528
01:11:14,130 --> 01:11:17,700
players who realize very
quickly, and are they ready to

1529
01:11:17,700 --> 01:11:20,360
give them up if they realize
that they think what they've

1530
01:11:20,360 --> 01:11:21,600
seen is wrong.

1531
01:11:21,600 --> 01:11:24,856
So, for me it was very
interesting because I come at

1532
01:11:24,856 --> 01:11:26,890
an abstract theory inside.

1533
01:11:26,890 --> 01:11:29,210
And so we were developing
prototypes.

1534
01:11:29,210 --> 01:11:31,450
And it's very interesting when
you come from the abstract

1535
01:11:31,450 --> 01:11:33,910
idea to prototypes.

1536
01:11:33,910 --> 01:11:37,520
But paper prototyping is perfect
because it really made

1537
01:11:37,520 --> 01:11:40,150
me as a scientist come
to the ground.

1538
01:11:40,150 --> 01:11:42,150
Because of course I can read
[UNINTELLIGIBLE] and all these

1539
01:11:42,150 --> 01:11:45,700
people and say, wow, experiences
this and that.

1540
01:11:45,700 --> 01:11:48,720
And then you suddenly have pen
and paper and sit there and

1541
01:11:48,720 --> 01:11:54,780
think about a game that, is it
a metaphor for your theory.

1542
01:11:54,780 --> 01:12:00,230
And so I think my takeaway was
that paper prototyping was

1543
01:12:00,230 --> 01:12:02,020
very healthy for me.

1544
01:12:02,020 --> 01:12:04,790
And with the team to come down
to the fact, what is really

1545
01:12:04,790 --> 01:12:06,180
[UNINTELLIGIBLE] in the game.

1546
01:12:06,180 --> 01:12:06,670
What can we really--

1547
01:12:06,670 --> 01:12:09,890
I think at the beginning I was
a bit inexperienced in

1548
01:12:09,890 --> 01:12:11,610
prototyping.

1549
01:12:11,610 --> 01:12:13,080
Wow, we can all do that later.

1550
01:12:13,080 --> 01:12:16,370
We can do the cool stuff when
we get to programming.

1551
01:12:16,370 --> 01:12:18,270
But then I realized,
no, we can't.

1552
01:12:18,270 --> 01:12:21,960
We cannot do it as a paper
prototype, how should we do it

1553
01:12:21,960 --> 01:12:23,100
in programming.

1554
01:12:23,100 --> 01:12:25,290
But what is changing?

1555
01:12:25,290 --> 01:12:29,390
And I think for us it was
very interesting.

1556
01:12:29,390 --> 01:12:32,910
So I think one experience we
had is, we had them develop

1557
01:12:32,910 --> 01:12:34,460
different prototypes.

1558
01:12:34,460 --> 01:12:37,390
And so I think that was healthy
for us not to make one

1559
01:12:37,390 --> 01:12:40,250
paper prototype but then think
how we can do it better.

1560
01:12:40,250 --> 01:12:42,770
But that's what [UNINTELLIGIBLE]

1561
01:12:42,770 --> 01:12:45,650
a lot of prototypes.

1562
01:12:45,650 --> 01:12:46,895
And to stay open.

1563
01:12:46,895 --> 01:12:50,280
And even if you spend three or
four days on a prototype, if

1564
01:12:50,280 --> 01:12:52,440
it doesn't work with others
the moment you show them.

1565
01:12:52,440 --> 01:12:54,040
And they go like, what,
these are the rules.

1566
01:12:54,040 --> 01:12:55,260
Are you sure?

1567
01:12:55,260 --> 01:12:57,132
I don't get it.

1568
01:12:57,132 --> 01:13:00,865
If you explain the tenth time,
maybe-- maybe it was a cool

1569
01:13:00,865 --> 01:13:03,540
idea back home or with your
friend, maybe, but it just

1570
01:13:03,540 --> 01:13:04,680
doesn't work.

1571
01:13:04,680 --> 01:13:07,900
And so this experience
in the prototypes was

1572
01:13:07,900 --> 01:13:09,310
very healthy for us.

1573
01:13:09,310 --> 01:13:10,580
And then coming to the point.

1574
01:13:10,580 --> 01:13:13,614
And I realized for me it was
important that somebody coming

1575
01:13:13,614 --> 01:13:16,230
in the room, playing a prototype
for five minutes,

1576
01:13:16,230 --> 01:13:18,880
kind of understands
the core mechanic.

1577
01:13:18,880 --> 01:13:21,130
If this is not happening--

1578
01:13:21,130 --> 01:13:24,416
who takes the five minutes to
understand a core mechanic?

1579
01:13:24,416 --> 01:13:25,620
Nobody, today.

1580
01:13:25,620 --> 01:13:27,000
PROFESSOR: That would be, like
in this game, just walking

1581
01:13:27,000 --> 01:13:28,176
onto a [INAUDIBLE].

1582
01:13:28,176 --> 01:13:29,112
GUEST SPEAKER: Right.

1583
01:13:29,112 --> 01:13:30,520
That's right.

1584
01:13:30,520 --> 01:13:32,800
And so, yeah.

1585
01:13:32,800 --> 01:13:35,350
I think, coming from a different
perspective, again,

1586
01:13:35,350 --> 01:13:40,030
prototyping is kind of like the
way to get in the game.

1587
01:13:40,030 --> 01:13:42,690
Even as the designer.

1588
01:13:42,690 --> 01:13:44,770
Because from then on, you know
what you're talking about.

1589
01:13:44,770 --> 01:13:46,682
And so I had to lose a
lot of my abstract

1590
01:13:46,682 --> 01:13:48,158
thoughts in the process.

1591
01:13:48,158 --> 01:13:49,470
And then the playtesting.

1592
01:13:49,470 --> 01:13:52,995
So it was interesting sometimes
to see, even if the

1593
01:13:52,995 --> 01:13:55,420
prototype is cool, then
you have a prototype.

1594
01:13:55,420 --> 01:13:57,610
And then people come in and
say, [UNINTELLIGIBLE]

1595
01:13:57,610 --> 01:13:58,480
again.

1596
01:13:58,480 --> 01:14:00,332
[UNINTELLIGIBLE]

1597
01:14:00,332 --> 01:14:01,260
it's so easy.

1598
01:14:01,260 --> 01:14:04,470
But then you can start to stick
with your idea or say

1599
01:14:04,470 --> 01:14:08,370
no, maybe I have to go down with
the theoretical aspect

1600
01:14:08,370 --> 01:14:10,780
and really look [UNINTELLIGIBLE]

1601
01:14:10,780 --> 01:14:12,030
for the players.

1602
01:14:13,890 --> 01:14:15,390
GUEST SPEAKER: And another thing
about prototyping, it's

1603
01:14:15,390 --> 01:14:17,440
not focus groups.

1604
01:14:17,440 --> 01:14:21,540
So it's not a case of, --sure
you want to put it in front of

1605
01:14:21,540 --> 01:14:23,060
as many people as possible.

1606
01:14:23,060 --> 01:14:25,980
But you really want to, I think,
avoid stuff like what

1607
01:14:25,980 --> 01:14:27,852
did you like, what
didn't you like.

1608
01:14:27,852 --> 01:14:28,710
Those kind of questions.

1609
01:14:28,710 --> 01:14:30,110
Because people want
to be helpful.

1610
01:14:30,110 --> 01:14:34,140
And sometimes the piece they
didn't like was actually the

1611
01:14:34,140 --> 01:14:35,500
part where they were
working hardest.

1612
01:14:35,500 --> 01:14:36,810
So it's like I didn't
like that I had to

1613
01:14:36,810 --> 01:14:37,800
jump over the wall.

1614
01:14:37,800 --> 01:14:40,780
[INAUDIBLE] jump
over the wall.

1615
01:14:40,780 --> 01:14:43,140
And it may not really mean that
if you took that out,

1616
01:14:43,140 --> 01:14:44,210
that they would enjoy
the game more.

1617
01:14:44,210 --> 01:14:45,710
In fact, they might not
enjoy it at all.

1618
01:14:45,710 --> 01:14:47,470
So you have to be really
careful about that.

1619
01:14:47,470 --> 01:14:49,004
And people want to please you.

1620
01:14:49,004 --> 01:14:49,960
So they'll say oh, it's good,
and stuff like that.

1621
01:14:49,960 --> 01:14:52,690
I think it's really important
that what you do with

1622
01:14:52,690 --> 01:14:56,236
prototyping is watch
the player.

1623
01:14:56,236 --> 01:14:59,110
And then trust yourself
as a designer.

1624
01:14:59,110 --> 01:15:02,160
Rather than ask them what you
should do, because they will

1625
01:15:02,160 --> 01:15:03,310
try and be helpful and they'll
come up with wrong

1626
01:15:03,310 --> 01:15:04,640
suggestions.

1627
01:15:04,640 --> 01:15:08,160
Watch them and use your best
judgment as designer as to

1628
01:15:08,160 --> 01:15:10,000
what they're reacting to,
and why they're reacting

1629
01:15:10,000 --> 01:15:11,360
the way they are.

1630
01:15:11,360 --> 01:15:13,350
And try to fix it.

1631
01:15:13,350 --> 01:15:16,730
And then you try to get some
questions, try to maybe get

1632
01:15:16,730 --> 01:15:17,820
some access to their thinking.

1633
01:15:17,820 --> 01:15:20,700
But don't think that they
necessarily know what was

1634
01:15:20,700 --> 01:15:25,150
interesting to them, or what
would make them happy.

1635
01:15:25,150 --> 01:15:26,060
Don't ask those questions.

1636
01:15:26,060 --> 01:15:29,006
Those are focus group questions,
and you shouldn't

1637
01:15:29,006 --> 01:15:30,601
ask them because it's not
going to give you

1638
01:15:30,601 --> 01:15:31,461
the answers you want.

1639
01:15:31,461 --> 01:15:33,425
You've got to trust yourself
at some level

1640
01:15:33,425 --> 01:15:34,420
as to what's happening.

1641
01:15:34,420 --> 01:15:36,570
GUEST SPEAKER: And something
that I also had to learn was,

1642
01:15:36,570 --> 01:15:41,120
if you have the focus test or
the playtest, and then you

1643
01:15:41,120 --> 01:15:42,490
realize you have problems.

1644
01:15:42,490 --> 01:15:45,240
And it's really healthy to
write all the problems.

1645
01:15:45,240 --> 01:15:47,670
And then brainstorm different
solutions.

1646
01:15:47,670 --> 01:15:50,520
Don't ever, when you discuss
it, try to come up with a

1647
01:15:50,520 --> 01:15:51,510
solution immediately.

1648
01:15:51,510 --> 01:15:55,000
Because what happens is, you
quickly develop one solution.

1649
01:15:55,000 --> 01:15:56,940
And then you go and end up with
another problem, but you

1650
01:15:56,940 --> 01:16:00,870
don't realize that sometimes,
some problems stick together.

1651
01:16:00,870 --> 01:16:02,840
Or sometimes you realize,
well, we have so many

1652
01:16:02,840 --> 01:16:06,192
problems, just because of this
little aspect of the game.

1653
01:16:06,192 --> 01:16:07,600
Why don't we just let
it [UNINTELLIGIBLE].

1654
01:16:07,600 --> 01:16:10,305
If you don't do that, you start
to spend two hours in

1655
01:16:10,305 --> 01:16:13,430
solving a problem then
realize it was wrong.

1656
01:16:13,430 --> 01:16:14,900
Or you never realize it again.

1657
01:16:14,900 --> 01:16:15,910
So have [UNINTELLIGIBLE]

1658
01:16:15,910 --> 01:16:18,475
problems and quick solutions
where you [UNINTELLIGIBLE]

1659
01:16:18,475 --> 01:16:19,560
or not.

1660
01:16:19,560 --> 01:16:22,706
Make solution, solution,
solution and then with the

1661
01:16:22,706 --> 01:16:26,010
same problem a few weeks
later again.

1662
01:16:26,010 --> 01:16:28,680
GUEST SPEAKER: And I just want
to clarify, focus tests and

1663
01:16:28,680 --> 01:16:30,740
focus groups are two very
different things.

1664
01:16:33,360 --> 01:16:35,560
The kind of resource we're
talking about is focus

1665
01:16:35,560 --> 01:16:38,040
testing, which is specifically
identifying individual

1666
01:16:38,040 --> 01:16:40,200
problems in the game.

1667
01:16:40,200 --> 01:16:43,755
And a focus group is asking them
what they liked, which is

1668
01:16:43,755 --> 01:16:46,980
actually very not useful for
most product design in fact.

1669
01:16:46,980 --> 01:16:49,230
Games in particular.

1670
01:16:49,230 --> 01:16:51,420
GUEST SPEAKER: One piece of
advice that [UNINTELLIGIBLE]

1671
01:16:51,420 --> 01:16:54,154
really important if you're a
smart college student, like an

1672
01:16:54,154 --> 01:16:57,802
MIT student, is that you've
probably learned in spite of

1673
01:16:57,802 --> 01:17:00,100
your education, by having
someone sit in front of a

1674
01:17:00,100 --> 01:17:02,000
class and tell you what
was going on.

1675
01:17:02,000 --> 01:17:03,860
And you somehow absorbed it.

1676
01:17:03,860 --> 01:17:06,650
And that's why you've
got here.

1677
01:17:06,650 --> 01:17:09,150
But lots of people
don't learn that.

1678
01:17:09,150 --> 01:17:12,616
And it's really hard to avoid
the tendency in the game to

1679
01:17:12,616 --> 01:17:14,340
just tell people what
they should know.

1680
01:17:14,340 --> 01:17:16,770
Which is, sort of for my money,
like when you meet

1681
01:17:16,770 --> 01:17:18,490
someone who speaks a
foreign language.

1682
01:17:18,490 --> 01:17:20,755
You don't understand each
other so you both start

1683
01:17:20,755 --> 01:17:24,450
speaking slower and louder.

1684
01:17:24,450 --> 01:17:25,450
And I think that's what
a lot of education--

1685
01:17:25,450 --> 01:17:27,850
it's all a bad education
in general does.

1686
01:17:27,850 --> 01:17:29,540
Speaks slower and louder.

1687
01:17:29,540 --> 01:17:30,300
And [UNINTELLIGIBLE]

1688
01:17:30,300 --> 01:17:32,755
educational games.

1689
01:17:32,755 --> 01:17:34,360
So just remember that just
because you got it the first

1690
01:17:34,360 --> 01:17:37,210
time someone told you doesn't
mean that everybody else--

1691
01:17:37,210 --> 01:17:39,534
it's not just about explaining
it better.

1692
01:17:39,534 --> 01:17:43,020
It's about giving them a
different way of learning.

1693
01:17:43,020 --> 01:17:45,510
PROFESSOR: Any questions
for our guests?

1694
01:17:55,970 --> 01:17:56,670
GUEST SPEAKER: I just want
to say something.

1695
01:17:56,670 --> 01:17:57,420
Have you ever heard
of firehose games

1696
01:17:57,420 --> 01:17:58,532
[UNINTELLIGIBLE]

1697
01:17:58,532 --> 01:17:59,210
forum.

1698
01:17:59,210 --> 01:18:02,010
So I told them, I know a
guy who works there.

1699
01:18:02,010 --> 01:18:05,250
And he said, we've got a focus
group tomorrow night.

1700
01:18:05,250 --> 01:18:07,655
They're PS3 set to release
in a few months.

1701
01:18:07,655 --> 01:18:09,840
Does anyone want to
go tomorrow night?

1702
01:18:09,840 --> 01:18:12,280
Seven o'clock, about an hour
to an hour and a half.

1703
01:18:12,280 --> 01:18:14,520
GUEST SPEAKER: That includes
[UNINTELLIGIBLE]

1704
01:18:14,520 --> 01:18:15,640
and [UNINTELLIGIBLE]

1705
01:18:15,640 --> 01:18:17,732
are part of Firehose Games.

1706
01:18:17,732 --> 01:18:21,296
AUDIENCE: Are they looking for
people who haven't played the

1707
01:18:21,296 --> 01:18:21,620
game before?

1708
01:18:21,620 --> 01:18:22,106
GUEST SPEAKER: Maybe.

1709
01:18:22,106 --> 01:18:23,564
We're going to have
[UNINTELLIGIBLE].

1710
01:18:28,910 --> 01:18:30,615
AUDIENCE: Can I ask a question,
[UNINTELLIGIBLE]?

1711
01:18:35,115 --> 01:18:38,890
PROFESSOR: So the question
I would have to use is,

1712
01:18:38,890 --> 01:18:40,350
[UNINTELLIGIBLE]

1713
01:18:40,350 --> 01:18:44,750
in his play biography,
educational games?

1714
01:18:44,750 --> 01:18:47,410
Have you played it, would you
say it was an important

1715
01:18:47,410 --> 01:18:48,200
experience to you?

1716
01:18:48,200 --> 01:18:50,620
That even, maybe it's
embarrassing now when the

1717
01:18:50,620 --> 01:18:52,070
other ones are listening.

1718
01:18:52,070 --> 01:18:54,660
But does anybody out there
[UNINTELLIGIBLE]

1719
01:18:54,660 --> 01:18:56,896
Zambonis or whatever
that game was?

1720
01:18:56,896 --> 01:18:59,340
GUEST SPEAKER: Best
game of all time.

1721
01:18:59,340 --> 01:19:01,140
[INTERPOSING VOICES]

1722
01:19:01,140 --> 01:19:03,240
AUDIENCE: It was similar
in that you had a

1723
01:19:03,240 --> 01:19:04,645
[UNINTELLIGIBLE] you were taking
around and had to solve

1724
01:19:04,645 --> 01:19:05,880
little puzzles.

1725
01:19:05,880 --> 01:19:10,240
And underlying them was math
and simple math equations.

1726
01:19:10,240 --> 01:19:10,670
But--

1727
01:19:10,670 --> 01:19:11,130
[INTERPOSING VOICES]

1728
01:19:11,130 --> 01:19:11,627
AUDIENCE: Pizza.

1729
01:19:11,627 --> 01:19:14,609
You divide a pizza, it's cool.

1730
01:19:18,090 --> 01:19:19,520
GUEST SPEAKER: We can't
let that slip.

1731
01:19:19,520 --> 01:19:20,610
That's Scott's game.

1732
01:19:20,610 --> 01:19:21,860
[INTERPOSING VOICES]

1733
01:19:33,100 --> 01:19:35,530
PROFESSOR: I think it's
interesting to think about, if

1734
01:19:35,530 --> 01:19:37,290
you have any experience like
that, what would make

1735
01:19:37,290 --> 01:19:39,014
you like the game.

1736
01:19:39,014 --> 01:19:42,665
I think it's very rich, because
of all the people who

1737
01:19:42,665 --> 01:19:44,100
have that experience with
educational games, and then

1738
01:19:44,100 --> 01:19:45,580
think about them when
you design it.

1739
01:19:45,580 --> 01:19:47,790
Think about the influence.

1740
01:19:47,790 --> 01:19:49,410
GUEST SPEAKER: There's this
series of games called

1741
01:19:49,410 --> 01:19:50,250
Thinking Things.

1742
01:19:50,250 --> 01:19:55,840
And one of them had a mode that
basically was kind of

1743
01:19:55,840 --> 01:19:59,950
like programming, in that you
could place different types of

1744
01:19:59,950 --> 01:20:03,580
units on a grid, and then give
them instructions in a loop.

1745
01:20:03,580 --> 01:20:05,560
So, say, go forward then
left then right.

1746
01:20:05,560 --> 01:20:07,950
And they could paint a square.

1747
01:20:07,950 --> 01:20:09,710
And so what you'd end up doing
is, if it's a starting

1748
01:20:09,710 --> 01:20:11,848
configuration, a certain set of
rules, you could get them

1749
01:20:11,848 --> 01:20:13,525
to draw patterns and
stuff like that.

1750
01:20:13,525 --> 01:20:17,320
And what used to happen is, my
dad would say, can you get two

1751
01:20:17,320 --> 01:20:19,390
inverted triangles drawn
on the screen.

1752
01:20:19,390 --> 01:20:22,060
And I would sit there and try
to basically program it.

1753
01:20:22,060 --> 01:20:23,200
I realized that it
was actually a

1754
01:20:23,200 --> 01:20:24,478
programming game, so.

1755
01:20:24,478 --> 01:20:27,050
PROFESSOR: LOGO does a lot
of that sort of thing too

1756
01:20:27,050 --> 01:20:29,140
[UNINTELLIGIBLE PHRASE]

1757
01:20:29,140 --> 01:20:30,650
GUEST SPEAKER: There's a bunch
of games that have done that.

1758
01:20:30,650 --> 01:20:33,120
The last puzzle [UNINTELLIGIBLE]

1759
01:20:33,120 --> 01:20:35,630
some of that stuff too.

1760
01:20:35,630 --> 01:20:38,472
And there's a product out just
now called, that I'm hooked on

1761
01:20:38,472 --> 01:20:41,376
right now, called Train
Yard, which is on the

1762
01:20:41,376 --> 01:20:42,344
iPad and the iPhone.

1763
01:20:42,344 --> 01:20:42,828
PROFESSOR: [UNINTELLIGIBLE]

1764
01:20:42,828 --> 01:20:43,312
GUEST SPEAKER: What?

1765
01:20:43,312 --> 01:20:45,260
PROFESSOR: I thought that
would be your game.

1766
01:20:45,260 --> 01:20:47,260
GUEST SPEAKER: And
it really is a

1767
01:20:47,260 --> 01:20:49,060
programming game, basically.

1768
01:20:49,060 --> 01:20:51,376
It's kind of cool.

1769
01:20:51,376 --> 01:20:52,700
AUDIENCE: Robuzzle.

1770
01:20:52,700 --> 01:20:55,248
[UNINTELLIGIBLE].

1771
01:20:55,248 --> 01:20:56,236
PROFESSOR: [UNINTELLIGIBLE]

1772
01:20:56,236 --> 01:21:01,176
AUDIENCE: I was just going to
say that [UNINTELLIGIBLE]

1773
01:21:01,176 --> 01:21:02,980
educational context.

1774
01:21:02,980 --> 01:21:03,830
Where--

1775
01:21:03,830 --> 01:21:07,980
Dinosaur Discovery, which is an
ancient game, I played it

1776
01:21:07,980 --> 01:21:12,050
when I was in kindergarten
[UNINTELLIGIBLE].

1777
01:21:12,050 --> 01:21:18,226
And it was an adventure
text puzzle game.

1778
01:21:18,226 --> 01:21:19,640
Which was Band Leader.

1779
01:21:19,640 --> 01:21:20,890
And then Where in the World
is Carmen Sandiego.

1780
01:21:24,170 --> 01:21:26,045
GUEST SPEAKER: Another
classic game that I

1781
01:21:26,045 --> 01:21:29,050
played, back when--

1782
01:21:29,050 --> 01:21:32,125
about the time when things
started getting popular, is

1783
01:21:32,125 --> 01:21:32,944
Midnight East.

1784
01:21:32,944 --> 01:21:37,590
It was a math busters game.

1785
01:21:37,590 --> 01:21:38,840
AUDIENCE: [UNINTELLIGIBLE]

1786
01:21:40,396 --> 01:21:41,646
[INTERPOSING VOICES]

1787
01:21:49,270 --> 01:21:50,749
AUDIENCE: The Incredible
Machine.

1788
01:21:50,749 --> 01:21:53,214
AUDIENCE: That's like the
[UNINTELLIGIBLE].

1789
01:21:53,214 --> 01:21:55,186
It's really [UNINTELLIGIBLE].

1790
01:21:55,186 --> 01:21:56,436
AUDIENCE: I loved that game.

1791
01:21:59,630 --> 01:22:00,880
PROFESSOR:
[UNINTELLIGIBLE PHRASE]

1792
01:22:04,220 --> 01:22:06,655
back in the good days.

1793
01:22:06,655 --> 01:22:10,307
I really enjoyed that game that
sounds like, I think we

1794
01:22:10,307 --> 01:22:12,012
all want to add to the
education game.

1795
01:22:12,012 --> 01:22:14,220
It's not like, oh my god, I had
to play an education game,

1796
01:22:14,220 --> 01:22:16,970
but more in, they could be
really in [UNINTELLIGIBLE].

1797
01:22:16,970 --> 01:22:17,475
GUEST SPEAKER: [UNINTELLIGIBLE]

1798
01:22:17,475 --> 01:22:18,855
and it came with almanac.

1799
01:22:18,855 --> 01:22:23,710
They encouraged you to to
do research, in fact.

1800
01:22:23,710 --> 01:22:26,990
It wasn't cheating to
look up the answers.