1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:02,470 The following content is provided under a Creative 2 00:00:02,470 --> 00:00:03,880 Commons license. 3 00:00:03,880 --> 00:00:06,920 Your support will help MIT OpenCourseWare continue to 4 00:00:06,920 --> 00:00:10,570 offer high quality educational resources for free. 5 00:00:10,570 --> 00:00:13,470 To make a donation or view additional materials from 6 00:00:13,470 --> 00:00:18,825 hundreds of MIT courses, visit MIT OpenCourseWare at 7 00:00:18,825 --> 00:00:20,800 ocw.mit.edu. 8 00:00:20,800 --> 00:00:24,290 Some content in this audio is not covered under a Creative 9 00:00:24,290 --> 00:00:25,785 Commons license. 10 00:00:25,785 --> 00:00:29,790 For more information see the course materials on the MIT 11 00:00:29,790 --> 00:00:32,409 OpenCourseWare website. 12 00:00:32,409 --> 00:00:35,780 GUEST SPEAKER: --to Abe, who is going to give us a guest 13 00:00:35,780 --> 00:00:37,930 lecture on art games. 14 00:00:37,930 --> 00:00:41,760 And today's reading, the proctor reading is kind of 15 00:00:41,760 --> 00:00:44,620 like part two of a lot of the things that Jason maybe talked 16 00:00:44,620 --> 00:00:49,170 about when we did simulations. 17 00:00:49,170 --> 00:00:52,450 If you guys remember, is a quality reading that a 18 00:00:52,450 --> 00:00:54,074 [INAUDIBLE] question, where that came from. 19 00:00:54,074 --> 00:00:57,800 One thing that I think was of interest was that there are a 20 00:00:57,800 --> 00:01:01,430 couple of responses to that article. 21 00:01:01,430 --> 00:01:03,510 If you scroll all the way down to the bottom of the article 22 00:01:03,510 --> 00:01:04,879 that these responses vary [INAUDIBLE] 23 00:01:07,400 --> 00:01:08,010 back to them. 24 00:01:08,010 --> 00:01:11,320 And those are kind of interesting, because it just 25 00:01:11,320 --> 00:01:12,410 carries on a conversation. 26 00:01:12,410 --> 00:01:16,665 People actually just turning his article into basically a 27 00:01:16,665 --> 00:01:18,600 blog post and then write on it. 28 00:01:18,600 --> 00:01:19,640 And they were pretty good. 29 00:01:19,640 --> 00:01:23,340 But a lot of that was kind of the state of art game 30 00:01:23,340 --> 00:01:27,635 discussion back in 1999, I think, I think a pretty old 31 00:01:27,635 --> 00:01:32,660 article, where they were very much thinking about games have 32 00:01:32,660 --> 00:01:33,540 to be simulations. 33 00:01:33,540 --> 00:01:36,920 Games and narratives, blaaach. 34 00:01:36,920 --> 00:01:41,330 Storytelling is like some other mediums' domain. 35 00:01:41,330 --> 00:01:42,580 It's all about the simulation. 36 00:01:45,690 --> 00:01:49,890 Arguably at that time there wasn't a big discussion of an 37 00:01:49,890 --> 00:01:50,490 art games movement. 38 00:01:50,490 --> 00:01:54,040 There were other games movements, like new games 39 00:01:54,040 --> 00:01:58,160 which were really more about people interacting with you, 40 00:01:58,160 --> 00:02:00,940 trying to get games to where people were more cooperative, 41 00:02:00,940 --> 00:02:04,300 less competitive, and less cutthroat. 42 00:02:04,300 --> 00:02:09,840 There were other movements about people-- 43 00:02:09,840 --> 00:02:12,200 they were probably advertising game movements. 44 00:02:12,200 --> 00:02:17,270 And there was a lot of work in people making months of 45 00:02:17,270 --> 00:02:19,940 computer games that effectively made it 46 00:02:19,940 --> 00:02:23,210 unplayable, but made really pretty images in the process. 47 00:02:23,210 --> 00:02:25,590 So that [UNINTELLIGIBLE], for instance, where everything 48 00:02:25,590 --> 00:02:27,620 becomes black and white and is striped, 49 00:02:27,620 --> 00:02:28,460 including the monsters. 50 00:02:28,460 --> 00:02:30,770 There's no way you can see what the hell's going on, but 51 00:02:30,770 --> 00:02:33,494 they look pretty cool. 52 00:02:33,494 --> 00:02:34,530 AUDIENCE: Have you seen-- 53 00:02:34,530 --> 00:02:37,904 I think it's 96 kilobytes-- 54 00:02:37,904 --> 00:02:41,290 there was a competition in full game [INAUDIBLE]-- no 55 00:02:41,290 --> 00:02:42,150 it's 4 kilobytes, I think. 56 00:02:42,150 --> 00:02:45,328 It's a 4-kilobyte game in full 3-D, with multiple levels, 57 00:02:45,328 --> 00:02:47,830 extremely clever, including the music and everything. 58 00:02:47,830 --> 00:02:50,210 PROFESSOR: Yeah, yeah. 59 00:02:50,210 --> 00:02:51,500 AUDIENCE: Have you ever heard of this or seen this? 60 00:02:51,500 --> 00:02:53,070 GUEST SPEAKER: There are a couple of those. 61 00:02:53,070 --> 00:02:55,010 A lot of those come up with the demoscene. 62 00:02:55,010 --> 00:02:58,770 Demoscene, which I will put off to some other time-- 63 00:02:58,770 --> 00:02:59,310 AUDIENCE: It's very impressive, too. 64 00:02:59,310 --> 00:03:00,120 It's like very-- 65 00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:01,940 GUEST SPEAKER: Yeah, yeah. 66 00:03:01,940 --> 00:03:05,100 It's kind of this weird thing of computer hacking, really, 67 00:03:05,100 --> 00:03:08,740 really fast and really, really compact coding, and visualized 68 00:03:08,740 --> 00:03:11,990 statics and music, which goes more like a 69 00:03:11,990 --> 00:03:13,890 digital music video. 70 00:03:13,890 --> 00:03:17,360 Only there were some people who added mouse control, and 71 00:03:17,360 --> 00:03:20,210 game play into it and made these kind of games. 72 00:03:20,210 --> 00:03:24,790 But that's very different from the art game scene that we 73 00:03:24,790 --> 00:03:26,980 have today, or at least what's commonly 74 00:03:26,980 --> 00:03:27,810 described as art games. 75 00:03:27,810 --> 00:03:34,140 So I'd like Abe to talk about what happened since then, 76 00:03:34,140 --> 00:03:34,940 since 1999. 77 00:03:34,940 --> 00:03:36,461 GUEST SPEAKER: Yeah, yeah. 78 00:03:36,461 --> 00:03:37,383 Hi, guys. 79 00:03:37,383 --> 00:03:38,305 I'm Abe. 80 00:03:38,305 --> 00:03:39,770 I work here at the lab. 81 00:03:39,770 --> 00:03:40,800 I play a bunch of your games. 82 00:03:40,800 --> 00:03:43,210 I've met a bunch of you. 83 00:03:43,210 --> 00:03:44,020 It's nice to be here. 84 00:03:44,020 --> 00:03:46,550 Phillip asked me to come in to talk about, 85 00:03:46,550 --> 00:03:48,150 quote/unquote, art games. 86 00:03:48,150 --> 00:03:54,720 I think largely because it's a kind of, I'll say, sector of 87 00:03:54,720 --> 00:03:59,210 game development that my work at Gambit tends to intersect 88 00:03:59,210 --> 00:04:02,100 with, especially recently. 89 00:04:02,100 --> 00:04:05,563 And I think, too, that it's-- 90 00:04:05,563 --> 00:04:06,024 AUDIENCE: Sorry. 91 00:04:06,024 --> 00:04:09,440 I was choking from-- 92 00:04:09,440 --> 00:04:13,410 GUEST SPEAKER: I think, too, that it's a sector that's a 93 00:04:13,410 --> 00:04:15,860 little bit confusing-- 94 00:04:15,860 --> 00:04:17,220 and possibly confusing, too. 95 00:04:17,220 --> 00:04:20,680 And so, just to give you guys a sense-- 96 00:04:20,680 --> 00:04:23,745 when you asked me about this it actually made me think, 97 00:04:23,745 --> 00:04:25,705 like, oh, yeah, cool, I'll talk about this art games 98 00:04:25,705 --> 00:04:28,410 movement or whatever, but that of course-- 99 00:04:28,410 --> 00:04:29,270 ooh, wait. 100 00:04:29,270 --> 00:04:33,070 I'm locked into some kind of weird mode right now. 101 00:04:33,070 --> 00:04:34,020 Sorry. 102 00:04:34,020 --> 00:04:35,222 OK. 103 00:04:35,222 --> 00:04:38,040 That brings up this question, which is, are games art? 104 00:04:38,040 --> 00:04:44,200 And just to give you a sense for how this little talk 105 00:04:44,200 --> 00:04:46,660 thing, whatever, is going to go, I'm going to talk a little 106 00:04:46,660 --> 00:04:50,020 bit about this question, give you examples of what people 107 00:04:50,020 --> 00:04:53,661 have said about this, and opinions that I think are 108 00:04:53,661 --> 00:04:54,420 particularly important, particularly 109 00:04:54,420 --> 00:04:56,880 valid on this subject. 110 00:04:56,880 --> 00:05:01,040 I also after that want to show you some examples, some 111 00:05:01,040 --> 00:05:03,200 historical and then kind of moving forward examples. 112 00:05:03,200 --> 00:05:05,910 I'm actually going to get some of you guys to just come up 113 00:05:05,910 --> 00:05:08,020 here and maybe even play some of these examples that I think 114 00:05:08,020 --> 00:05:09,020 are particularly important. 115 00:05:09,020 --> 00:05:13,322 And I'd really like it if we can keep this less of a me 116 00:05:13,322 --> 00:05:17,150 talking at you and you engaging me as you have 117 00:05:17,150 --> 00:05:17,840 questions on this. 118 00:05:17,840 --> 00:05:23,420 Because me blabbing at you as you fall asleep is maybe good 119 00:05:23,420 --> 00:05:28,050 for a nap, but less useful for getting anything out of this. 120 00:05:28,050 --> 00:05:30,750 So we'll try to structure this as a conversation, and then 121 00:05:30,750 --> 00:05:34,500 I'll try to pull back, hearken back, to any of my teacher 122 00:05:34,500 --> 00:05:36,640 instincts and see if I can get you engaged. 123 00:05:36,640 --> 00:05:37,670 But we'll see. 124 00:05:37,670 --> 00:05:39,060 So are games art? 125 00:05:39,060 --> 00:05:41,878 I hate this question. 126 00:05:41,878 --> 00:05:45,240 Let's start off by saying that I fundamentally find it 127 00:05:45,240 --> 00:05:48,490 abhorrent, and I hear it all the time. 128 00:05:48,490 --> 00:05:51,560 And it's aggravating to me because I think it's 129 00:05:51,560 --> 00:05:53,330 incontrovertibly yes. 130 00:05:53,330 --> 00:05:56,730 I think that you can't possibly come up with any 131 00:05:56,730 --> 00:05:59,800 other answer other than yes, games are art, games have art, 132 00:05:59,800 --> 00:06:01,090 yes, yes, yes, right? 133 00:06:01,090 --> 00:06:03,410 But it keeps coming up. 134 00:06:03,410 --> 00:06:06,380 And it keeps becoming a question-- and I should say, 135 00:06:06,380 --> 00:06:11,910 too, that this is a wholly biased and slanted talk. 136 00:06:11,910 --> 00:06:16,110 This is my perspective on this, and hopefully by the 137 00:06:16,110 --> 00:06:17,640 time-- you'll be like, wow, he's absolutely right. 138 00:06:17,640 --> 00:06:20,870 There's no way that games could be anything but art. 139 00:06:20,870 --> 00:06:23,790 Or at least they are art, and then some. 140 00:06:23,790 --> 00:06:27,580 So this guy, who's a little hard to see right now, but 141 00:06:27,580 --> 00:06:30,300 he's handily brought up, recently brought into the 142 00:06:30,300 --> 00:06:35,920 fore, and that's Roger Ebert of Siskel and Ebert fame. 143 00:06:35,920 --> 00:06:38,205 Or since you guys are, some of you, younger than me, probably 144 00:06:38,205 --> 00:06:40,850 Ebert and Roeper. 145 00:06:40,850 --> 00:06:42,430 He had some interesting, 146 00:06:42,430 --> 00:06:44,960 controversial comments recently. 147 00:06:44,960 --> 00:06:47,200 And I pulled this quote, "Nevertheless, I'm being 148 00:06:47,200 --> 00:06:49,040 convinced that in principle--" I love that 149 00:06:49,040 --> 00:06:51,070 he put that in italics. 150 00:06:51,070 --> 00:06:52,770 "--video games cannot be art. 151 00:06:52,770 --> 00:06:55,630 Perhaps it is foolish for me to say never, because never as 152 00:06:55,630 --> 00:06:58,380 Rick Wakeman informs us, is a long, long time. 153 00:06:58,380 --> 00:07:02,020 Let me just say that no video gamer now living will survive 154 00:07:02,020 --> 00:07:05,400 long enough to experience the medium as an art form." 155 00:07:05,400 --> 00:07:08,760 So apparently we should all be dead already, according to 156 00:07:08,760 --> 00:07:10,650 Ebert, because we wouldn't have lived long enough to 157 00:07:10,650 --> 00:07:12,020 experience the medium as an art form. 158 00:07:12,020 --> 00:07:15,610 But here's a guy who, even though I don't think he's a 159 00:07:15,610 --> 00:07:17,580 particularly good film critic, is a popular film critic. 160 00:07:17,580 --> 00:07:19,910 And he's weighing in on a medium that he doesn't 161 00:07:19,910 --> 00:07:20,340 particularly understand. 162 00:07:20,340 --> 00:07:23,240 And I think it's important to look at what exactly is he 163 00:07:23,240 --> 00:07:25,980 doing when he makes this statement. 164 00:07:25,980 --> 00:07:28,510 He's in this business of classification, right? 165 00:07:28,510 --> 00:07:30,130 He's in this business of saying, all right, we've got 166 00:07:30,130 --> 00:07:31,480 this subject called art. 167 00:07:31,480 --> 00:07:35,570 What can we say falls under that subset and what does not? 168 00:07:35,570 --> 00:07:37,450 So he says things like painting, sculpture, dance, 169 00:07:37,450 --> 00:07:42,580 opera, literature, film can all be classified as art and 170 00:07:42,580 --> 00:07:46,110 that games are not. 171 00:07:46,110 --> 00:07:47,430 Probably some other things. 172 00:07:47,430 --> 00:07:48,930 I don't know where he stands on comic books. 173 00:07:48,930 --> 00:07:50,765 I don't think he's written about it yet, but I'm sure 174 00:07:50,765 --> 00:07:51,190 he'd probably-- 175 00:07:51,190 --> 00:07:54,100 I don't know what he thinks about pornography. 176 00:07:54,100 --> 00:07:56,190 Although, since it's in film form, maybe he 177 00:07:56,190 --> 00:07:56,520 does think it's art. 178 00:07:56,520 --> 00:07:57,230 It's unclear. 179 00:07:57,230 --> 00:07:59,650 He hasn't weighed in on that yet. 180 00:07:59,650 --> 00:08:01,120 But the interesting thing about this 181 00:08:01,120 --> 00:08:02,700 is, this is not new. 182 00:08:02,700 --> 00:08:04,850 This is like a high-culture, low-culture debate that's been 183 00:08:04,850 --> 00:08:06,550 going on for a really long time. 184 00:08:06,550 --> 00:08:08,560 And I think it's particularly hilarious because 185 00:08:08,560 --> 00:08:09,840 he would use films. 186 00:08:09,840 --> 00:08:12,560 And films had to fight out of the low-culture phenomenon to 187 00:08:12,560 --> 00:08:15,020 gain respect as a high-culture medium. 188 00:08:15,020 --> 00:08:17,160 So he's working-- 189 00:08:17,160 --> 00:08:19,860 reviewing a medium that was once conceived as low culture, 190 00:08:19,860 --> 00:08:22,580 had to work really hard to be considered high culture. 191 00:08:22,580 --> 00:08:25,620 And now he's saying, look, my films are high culture, your 192 00:08:25,620 --> 00:08:26,770 video games are low culture. 193 00:08:26,770 --> 00:08:30,350 Which is totally hilarious because in the past 50 years, 194 00:08:30,350 --> 00:08:32,780 this has been completely collapsed by post-modernism. 195 00:08:32,780 --> 00:08:36,031 That's a whole 'nother talk altogether. 196 00:08:36,031 --> 00:08:36,640 Maybe high culture and low culture 197 00:08:36,640 --> 00:08:38,360 don't even exist anymore. 198 00:08:38,360 --> 00:08:39,950 So Ebert brings us all back. 199 00:08:39,950 --> 00:08:40,780 And you get everybody upset. 200 00:08:40,780 --> 00:08:42,840 And a bunch of trolls are on his website saying really 201 00:08:42,840 --> 00:08:45,240 terrible things about him and about what he said. 202 00:08:45,240 --> 00:08:48,450 But he kind of reinvigorated this talk. 203 00:08:48,450 --> 00:08:51,180 And so new scientists, inspired by this Ebert 204 00:08:51,180 --> 00:08:54,630 controversy and looking for con tips on CultureLab asked 205 00:08:54,630 --> 00:08:56,570 the question, can games be art? 206 00:08:56,570 --> 00:08:58,880 And they sent it out to a bunch of game scholars saying, 207 00:08:58,880 --> 00:09:01,725 what is your opinion on this? 208 00:09:01,725 --> 00:09:06,340 Ian Bogost is a very smart guy and says some really 209 00:09:06,340 --> 00:09:06,850 interesting things. 210 00:09:06,850 --> 00:09:08,420 This is really why I'm not gonna read the whole thing, 211 00:09:08,420 --> 00:09:13,170 but in the first paragraph he brings up things like Fountain 212 00:09:13,170 --> 00:09:16,550 by Marcel Duchamp, which is a urinal in a museum, for those 213 00:09:16,550 --> 00:09:17,400 of you who don't know about it. 214 00:09:17,400 --> 00:09:20,340 And that was a statement, a piece of art that he was 215 00:09:20,340 --> 00:09:23,020 literally trying to confront, what high culture defines as 216 00:09:23,020 --> 00:09:28,520 art by taking, literally, a urinal, putting it upside down 217 00:09:28,520 --> 00:09:30,270 on a pedestal, entitling it Fountain, and putting it in a 218 00:09:30,270 --> 00:09:32,180 museum, which is the pinnacle of high culture. 219 00:09:32,180 --> 00:09:34,530 If you can make it in a museum, you're art. 220 00:09:34,530 --> 00:09:36,996 And so this is something that-- 221 00:09:36,996 --> 00:09:40,220 He mentions Yoko Ono's performance art, where she's 222 00:09:40,220 --> 00:09:43,247 sitting in a chair, and she has scissors next to her and 223 00:09:43,247 --> 00:09:45,510 the audience is invited to come cut her clothes off one 224 00:09:45,510 --> 00:09:47,500 piece at a time. 225 00:09:47,500 --> 00:09:49,270 A lot of this kind of stuff. 226 00:09:49,270 --> 00:09:52,480 Andy Warhol pop culture paintings, 227 00:09:52,480 --> 00:09:55,950 Mondrian's abstract paintings. 228 00:09:55,950 --> 00:09:58,260 And he says a lot in that first paragraph. 229 00:09:58,260 --> 00:09:59,860 But I think this interesting part that I've 230 00:09:59,860 --> 00:10:01,730 pseudo-highlighted down here is interesting. 231 00:10:01,730 --> 00:10:02,940 I'm starting in the middle. 232 00:10:02,940 --> 00:10:05,670 He says if the purpose of art is indeed to force us to see 233 00:10:05,670 --> 00:10:08,560 something we thought we understood in a new light, 234 00:10:08,560 --> 00:10:10,995 perhaps the most fundamental move video games have made in 235 00:10:10,995 --> 00:10:14,151 the artistic tradition is in the very eliciting of the 236 00:10:14,151 --> 00:10:15,640 question, can video games be art? 237 00:10:15,640 --> 00:10:17,000 I think that's really interesting. 238 00:10:17,000 --> 00:10:19,030 So the fact that people are even asking this question 239 00:10:19,030 --> 00:10:22,380 suggests that video games are doing something that we 240 00:10:22,380 --> 00:10:25,070 traditionally conceive of art doing. 241 00:10:25,070 --> 00:10:27,470 That's, I think, a really powerful statement, that we're 242 00:10:27,470 --> 00:10:31,840 even having this discussion renders the question moot in 243 00:10:31,840 --> 00:10:35,080 some senses, which is I would say 244 00:10:35,080 --> 00:10:39,698 classic Bogostian wordplay. 245 00:10:39,698 --> 00:10:41,626 I think I just made something up called Bogostian. 246 00:10:41,626 --> 00:10:44,730 I should tweet all about it. 247 00:10:44,730 --> 00:10:48,070 John Sharp, from the Savannah College of Art and Design, has 248 00:10:48,070 --> 00:10:50,050 had a lot of thoughts on this. 249 00:10:50,050 --> 00:10:51,950 He's actually a great person to talk about this, because he 250 00:10:51,950 --> 00:10:53,870 studies video games, but he does it from an art history 251 00:10:53,870 --> 00:10:54,940 background as well. 252 00:10:54,940 --> 00:10:56,750 That's pretty good and useful. 253 00:10:56,750 --> 00:11:00,310 He talks about some interesting things here. 254 00:11:00,310 --> 00:11:03,750 Similarly to what Ian is doing, he's talking a bit 255 00:11:03,750 --> 00:11:08,340 about how video games and art are doing some similar things 256 00:11:08,340 --> 00:11:11,510 at times, and yet games have certain affordances that other 257 00:11:11,510 --> 00:11:14,638 media do not. 258 00:11:14,638 --> 00:11:17,440 He says at the end here, which I think is interesting, all 259 00:11:17,440 --> 00:11:19,990 this poses the question of why are we concerned with giving 260 00:11:19,990 --> 00:11:21,220 video games the status of art? 261 00:11:21,220 --> 00:11:23,010 This is one of the reasons why I hate this question. 262 00:11:23,010 --> 00:11:24,940 Are we simply trying to legitimize them? 263 00:11:24,940 --> 00:11:27,000 Does being called, quote/unquote art change the 264 00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:28,730 qualities of video games. 265 00:11:28,730 --> 00:11:31,056 Only if we can answer these questions can we move the 266 00:11:31,056 --> 00:11:31,620 conversation forward. 267 00:11:31,620 --> 00:11:34,500 I think he's reacting here to the question itself. 268 00:11:34,500 --> 00:11:36,730 Actually, he and Ian both are reacting to the question, Ian 269 00:11:36,730 --> 00:11:39,150 saying the question invalidates itself and John 270 00:11:39,150 --> 00:11:42,820 Sharp now saying that this question, it's not helping us. 271 00:11:42,820 --> 00:11:45,850 Asking how does calling it art, what does that do for the 272 00:11:45,850 --> 00:11:48,390 medium, that's the important question. 273 00:11:48,390 --> 00:11:51,470 Here's some thoughts about the question and some more 274 00:11:51,470 --> 00:11:54,340 evidence for why I think the question, are video games art 275 00:11:54,340 --> 00:11:57,898 is just quite wrong. 276 00:11:57,898 --> 00:12:03,880 Mary Flanagan takes it as being assumed that video games 277 00:12:03,880 --> 00:12:05,170 are art, which I think is actually great. 278 00:12:05,170 --> 00:12:08,150 In Critical Play she doesn't go to great lengths to define 279 00:12:08,150 --> 00:12:08,910 video games as art. 280 00:12:08,910 --> 00:12:10,710 She just looks at art and she looks at games 281 00:12:10,710 --> 00:12:11,830 and compares them. 282 00:12:11,830 --> 00:12:14,580 She just assumes that this is so. 283 00:12:14,580 --> 00:12:17,500 I think this is a really nice quote from the beginning of 284 00:12:17,500 --> 00:12:19,520 her Critical Play book, which is that, "Critical Play is 285 00:12:19,520 --> 00:12:22,180 built on the premise that, as with other media, games carry 286 00:12:22,180 --> 00:12:24,620 beliefs within their representation systems and 287 00:12:24,620 --> 00:12:26,440 mechanics." This is really important. "Artists using 288 00:12:26,440 --> 00:12:29,012 games as a medium of expression--" Again, good use 289 00:12:29,012 --> 00:12:30,290 of italics. 290 00:12:30,290 --> 00:12:32,230 "--,then, manipulate elements common to games-- 291 00:12:32,230 --> 00:12:34,836 representation systems and styles, rules of progress, 292 00:12:34,836 --> 00:12:37,640 codes of conduct, context of reception, winning and losing 293 00:12:37,640 --> 00:12:40,442 paradigms, ways of interacting in a game-- for they are the 294 00:12:40,442 --> 00:12:43,220 material properties of games, much like marble and chisel or 295 00:12:43,220 --> 00:12:46,025 pen and ink bring with them their own intended 296 00:12:46,025 --> 00:12:48,350 possibilities, limitations, and conventions." 297 00:12:48,350 --> 00:12:49,280 It's a great point. 298 00:12:49,280 --> 00:12:51,860 You would have a really hard time making a painting with a 299 00:12:51,860 --> 00:12:55,177 chisel and no paint, like you were using marble and a 300 00:12:55,177 --> 00:12:56,410 chisel, a you were trying to make a painting. 301 00:12:56,410 --> 00:12:57,360 Two different things. 302 00:12:57,360 --> 00:12:58,130 Both are art. 303 00:12:58,130 --> 00:12:59,670 It's the same thing with games. 304 00:12:59,670 --> 00:13:03,490 Games have rule sets, games have systems, games have 305 00:13:03,490 --> 00:13:04,730 win-and-loss paradigms. 306 00:13:04,730 --> 00:13:07,955 They have all these things that are conventions and 307 00:13:07,955 --> 00:13:11,180 things that we associate with even our definition of what a 308 00:13:11,180 --> 00:13:14,280 game is, which is at times faulty. 309 00:13:14,280 --> 00:13:15,890 But those are our tools. 310 00:13:15,890 --> 00:13:17,060 Those are how we communicate things. 311 00:13:17,060 --> 00:13:20,150 I think her first sentence is really important. 312 00:13:20,150 --> 00:13:22,210 I'm guessing with the stuff that you've been talking 313 00:13:22,210 --> 00:13:24,372 about-- them and Gonzalo Frasca-- 314 00:13:24,372 --> 00:13:25,670 that's coming through. 315 00:13:25,670 --> 00:13:27,190 I actually see that in your games. 316 00:13:27,190 --> 00:13:29,450 You're trying to-- so, for example I play-tested that 317 00:13:29,450 --> 00:13:32,800 FedEx game, and I play-tested the game about marriage. 318 00:13:32,800 --> 00:13:35,290 There's all kinds of meaning in those systems and meanings 319 00:13:35,290 --> 00:13:39,200 in those choices that you get that are being communicated. 320 00:13:39,200 --> 00:13:42,220 And that's very similar to what an artist would do with 321 00:13:42,220 --> 00:13:43,156 any other medium. 322 00:13:43,156 --> 00:13:45,310 You're communicating a message through those. 323 00:13:45,310 --> 00:13:47,120 And sometimes we do it accidentally. 324 00:13:47,120 --> 00:13:49,200 It's not always explicit. 325 00:13:49,200 --> 00:13:49,940 We make something-- 326 00:13:49,940 --> 00:13:54,020 I would say that the graveyard and when you get divorced and 327 00:13:54,020 --> 00:13:56,610 you put your divorced person in the graveyard is an 328 00:13:56,610 --> 00:13:59,360 interesting choice for me, because it was creating an 329 00:13:59,360 --> 00:14:01,473 equivalence between divorce and death, which I think is 330 00:14:01,473 --> 00:14:02,980 kind of interesting. 331 00:14:02,980 --> 00:14:05,540 That's just one interesting example. 332 00:14:05,540 --> 00:14:08,790 So Mary Flanagan in her book talks about this art movement 333 00:14:08,790 --> 00:14:09,210 called Fluxus. 334 00:14:09,210 --> 00:14:09,980 Before I go into-- 335 00:14:09,980 --> 00:14:13,550 any kind of thoughts or questions? 336 00:14:13,550 --> 00:14:15,680 Does anybody else think-- does anybody think video games 337 00:14:15,680 --> 00:14:16,833 aren't art still? 338 00:14:16,833 --> 00:14:17,520 It's okay. 339 00:14:17,520 --> 00:14:19,544 Oh, crap, we're gonna fight. 340 00:14:19,544 --> 00:14:22,125 AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE] when we were designing art, so our art 341 00:14:22,125 --> 00:14:25,590 project now is you have to choose a real-world 342 00:14:25,590 --> 00:14:27,072 system and relate it. 343 00:14:27,072 --> 00:14:28,740 That's what we're all working on. 344 00:14:28,740 --> 00:14:31,570 And one of the big things that really helped us get started 345 00:14:31,570 --> 00:14:34,303 is, what is the message we want to get across to each set 346 00:14:34,303 --> 00:14:34,580 of ablutions? 347 00:14:34,580 --> 00:14:35,370 What is a bad ablution? 348 00:14:35,370 --> 00:14:36,826 Do you want to say that's random, do you want to say 349 00:14:36,826 --> 00:14:37,690 that's this? 350 00:14:37,690 --> 00:14:40,910 And how do we express that, which [UNINTELLIGIBLE] 351 00:14:40,910 --> 00:14:41,225 GUEST SPEAKER: Totally. 352 00:14:41,225 --> 00:14:43,640 And it gets even crazier when you take-- 353 00:14:43,640 --> 00:14:45,760 when you try to look at systems that are not 354 00:14:45,760 --> 00:14:48,590 particularly tangible. 355 00:14:48,590 --> 00:14:52,500 You maybe looked at it, but Elude is a game about 356 00:14:52,500 --> 00:14:53,780 depression. 357 00:14:53,780 --> 00:14:57,135 There aren't exactly tangible kind of road maps the way 358 00:14:57,135 --> 00:15:00,540 there are with FedEx systems, for clinical depression. 359 00:15:00,540 --> 00:15:02,570 And yet you're looking at things like emotions, 360 00:15:02,570 --> 00:15:06,660 feelings, stuff like that, that we might call abstract, 361 00:15:06,660 --> 00:15:08,410 or just not immediate. 362 00:15:08,410 --> 00:15:12,205 How do you communicate those in systems? 363 00:15:12,205 --> 00:15:13,630 It's really tricky. 364 00:15:13,630 --> 00:15:16,955 AUDIENCE: I have friends that talk about all their games 365 00:15:16,955 --> 00:15:21,626 which are like more --genic or more abstract. 366 00:15:21,626 --> 00:15:23,900 Does Ebert [UNINTELLIGIBLE] art? 367 00:15:23,900 --> 00:15:27,075 GUEST SPEAKER: I mean, it's a really good question. 368 00:15:27,075 --> 00:15:28,860 AUDIENCE: What would he say about that? 369 00:15:28,860 --> 00:15:31,400 GUEST SPEAKER: I think that falls along the same lines as, 370 00:15:31,400 --> 00:15:34,460 like I said, does Ebert consider pornography art? 371 00:15:34,460 --> 00:15:35,790 It's a really difficult question. 372 00:15:35,790 --> 00:15:41,460 That's a much larger art history debate, about has high 373 00:15:41,460 --> 00:15:43,200 culture and low culture completely collapsed? 374 00:15:43,200 --> 00:15:47,870 Has mass-media proliferation deteriorated conceptions of 375 00:15:47,870 --> 00:15:51,110 what really high culture art are, versus low culture. 376 00:15:54,600 --> 00:15:56,700 I don't have particularly good answers for that. 377 00:15:56,700 --> 00:16:00,000 I think just as all of the other media that we looked at, 378 00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:02,200 does a Jerry Bruckheimer film count as art? 379 00:16:02,200 --> 00:16:05,100 Just like we would look at that and ask that question, we 380 00:16:05,100 --> 00:16:08,720 don't then deny the entire medium of film from the 381 00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:10,600 possibility of being artistic. 382 00:16:10,600 --> 00:16:13,310 There seems to be this desire, because the majority of games 383 00:16:13,310 --> 00:16:14,900 in our sector-- 384 00:16:14,900 --> 00:16:16,780 which I actually do, too, because if you 385 00:16:16,780 --> 00:16:18,290 go far enough back-- 386 00:16:18,290 --> 00:16:21,000 I should say video games-- 387 00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:24,847 Because most video games are commercially intended and 388 00:16:24,847 --> 00:16:28,280 involve fairly similar things, does that preclude the medium 389 00:16:28,280 --> 00:16:30,904 from the possibility of being artistic? 390 00:16:30,904 --> 00:16:35,140 I go back to that Ebert comment about he says they 391 00:16:35,140 --> 00:16:38,160 can't possibly be, or at least he says never is a long time. 392 00:16:38,160 --> 00:16:41,556 But not in our lifetime, it apparently is impossible. 393 00:16:41,556 --> 00:16:42,720 It's a good point. 394 00:16:42,720 --> 00:16:46,600 AUDIENCE: There's actually interesting effects with the 395 00:16:46,600 --> 00:16:49,263 game we're designing which is essentially city building and 396 00:16:49,263 --> 00:16:53,380 city creation in the time of the Roman Empire. 397 00:16:53,380 --> 00:16:57,845 And we actually didn't intend to instill any 398 00:16:57,845 --> 00:16:58,880 meaning in the game. 399 00:16:58,880 --> 00:17:01,090 But once we actually designed the mechanics and stuff, we 400 00:17:01,090 --> 00:17:02,940 realized that it was essentially a game about the 401 00:17:02,940 --> 00:17:05,760 rich getting richer and trying to control the board. 402 00:17:05,760 --> 00:17:08,170 So it's like there's almost this inherent meaning that 403 00:17:08,170 --> 00:17:09,780 came out from just designing the game. 404 00:17:09,780 --> 00:17:10,859 GUEST SPEAKER: Yeah, yeah. 405 00:17:10,859 --> 00:17:14,050 You almost can't help but have it happen in some instances. 406 00:17:14,050 --> 00:17:17,449 It reminds me of a good thing that Brenda Brathwaite put in 407 00:17:17,449 --> 00:17:19,589 one of her talks once, which was about the game 408 00:17:19,589 --> 00:17:22,560 Civilization, the mod Colonization for sig IV, which 409 00:17:22,560 --> 00:17:24,970 is a great mod in which you play one of the European 410 00:17:24,970 --> 00:17:26,910 colonizers and you come over to the New World. 411 00:17:26,910 --> 00:17:30,530 And there's indigenous peoples there. 412 00:17:30,530 --> 00:17:32,450 You have to negotiate with them at first, but eventually 413 00:17:32,450 --> 00:17:36,010 you just beat them up and take their land, or they just give 414 00:17:36,010 --> 00:17:37,450 it to you because you're more powerful than they are. 415 00:17:37,450 --> 00:17:40,160 And she was making the point, there's this great box art, 416 00:17:40,160 --> 00:17:42,490 the Native Americans in the corner and the Conquistador in 417 00:17:42,490 --> 00:17:44,290 the middle, the Spanish, and the Dutch. 418 00:17:44,290 --> 00:17:46,380 And it's like, if you were a Native American how would you 419 00:17:46,380 --> 00:17:47,610 respond to this game? 420 00:17:47,610 --> 00:17:50,850 And I'm like, yeah, I'm totally making America again. 421 00:17:50,850 --> 00:17:53,160 And other people would be like, oh my god, you basically 422 00:17:53,160 --> 00:17:56,080 just wiped out my ancestors, thanks. 423 00:17:56,080 --> 00:17:59,610 So it's true, sometimes you falling into meaning. 424 00:17:59,610 --> 00:18:00,918 It's something. 425 00:18:00,918 --> 00:18:03,720 And I think, again, a lot of art does that, right? 426 00:18:03,720 --> 00:18:06,620 And some art did it quite purposely, where they weren't 427 00:18:06,620 --> 00:18:10,860 divulging the meaning, they were inviting readings on it. 428 00:18:10,860 --> 00:18:11,310 So, Fluxus. 429 00:18:11,310 --> 00:18:14,770 Fluxus is this really interesting 430 00:18:14,770 --> 00:18:16,690 mid-20th-century art-- 431 00:18:16,690 --> 00:18:19,160 they rejected the term "movement," they called it an 432 00:18:19,160 --> 00:18:20,264 "attitude"-- 433 00:18:20,264 --> 00:18:23,200 that Mary Flanagan talks about a bit in her 434 00:18:23,200 --> 00:18:24,280 Critical Play book. 435 00:18:24,280 --> 00:18:25,820 It's actually quite interesting. 436 00:18:25,820 --> 00:18:28,410 It really starts out early with John Cage. 437 00:18:28,410 --> 00:18:30,940 Have you guys heard of him, the composer? 438 00:18:30,940 --> 00:18:34,400 He's most famous for this piece of music that he wrote 439 00:18:34,400 --> 00:18:37,240 where, I forget the duration, 440 00:18:37,240 --> 00:18:38,130 AUDIENCE: 4'33". 441 00:18:38,130 --> 00:18:39,020 GUEST SPEAKER: 4'33", yeah. 442 00:18:39,020 --> 00:18:44,070 it's 4 minutes and 33 seconds of not, well, not playing. 443 00:18:44,070 --> 00:18:44,740 AUDIENCE: He rests. 444 00:18:44,740 --> 00:18:45,030 GUEST SPEAKER: He rests. 445 00:18:45,030 --> 00:18:45,930 Exactly. 446 00:18:45,930 --> 00:18:48,560 So you'd sit down at the piano. 447 00:18:48,560 --> 00:18:50,050 You'd pull out the music and everyone would hush. 448 00:18:50,050 --> 00:18:52,340 And then for 4 minutes and 33 seconds you'd sit there, 449 00:18:52,340 --> 00:18:54,310 possibly with your hands on the keys. 450 00:18:54,310 --> 00:18:56,566 And then after the time, you would stand up, and you'd take 451 00:18:56,566 --> 00:18:58,670 your bow, and the audience would erupt 452 00:18:58,670 --> 00:19:02,370 into incredible applause. 453 00:19:02,370 --> 00:19:06,110 He was really testing the idea of what they eventually called 454 00:19:06,110 --> 00:19:07,680 scores, or event scores. 455 00:19:07,680 --> 00:19:13,090 This idea that music is an art form where you can write it 456 00:19:13,090 --> 00:19:15,060 down, and then it becomes performable. 457 00:19:15,060 --> 00:19:19,130 It becomes this thing that someone can engage with. 458 00:19:19,130 --> 00:19:21,280 We don't think of paintings that way. 459 00:19:21,280 --> 00:19:23,750 We don't think of paintings as having a score, having some 460 00:19:23,750 --> 00:19:26,060 kind of, how do I engage with this? 461 00:19:26,060 --> 00:19:29,790 It sounds kind of like games, in figuring out how does 462 00:19:29,790 --> 00:19:33,790 interactivity work in artistic mediums. 463 00:19:33,790 --> 00:19:37,080 Really interested in indeterminacy, too. 464 00:19:37,080 --> 00:19:40,230 I think you'll see in some of these examples, they're really 465 00:19:40,230 --> 00:19:44,480 kind of pushing on the boundaries of what art has 466 00:19:44,480 --> 00:19:46,010 been doing to this point. 467 00:19:46,010 --> 00:19:50,910 They call it intermedia, meaning that the more multiple 468 00:19:50,910 --> 00:19:55,060 modes that you can use for communicating it was really 469 00:19:55,060 --> 00:19:57,520 important to the attitude. 470 00:19:57,520 --> 00:20:01,390 Simplicity was really big, having basic 471 00:20:01,390 --> 00:20:03,450 systems and basic scores. 472 00:20:03,450 --> 00:20:07,590 And then this idea of play was really important. 473 00:20:07,590 --> 00:20:11,020 Yoko Ono, it's funny we sort of just attach her to John 474 00:20:11,020 --> 00:20:15,405 Lennon, but she was an artist before she was in a 475 00:20:15,405 --> 00:20:16,270 relationship with him. 476 00:20:16,270 --> 00:20:18,920 She's actually well known as one of these kind of Fluxus 477 00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:20,650 practitioners. 478 00:20:20,650 --> 00:20:21,440 This is interesting. 479 00:20:21,440 --> 00:20:24,460 This is the Fluxus manifesto. 480 00:20:24,460 --> 00:20:27,090 I wanted to put this up because I think you can get a 481 00:20:27,090 --> 00:20:30,940 little bit of a sense for what they were trying to go for. 482 00:20:30,940 --> 00:20:34,810 They were taking the word "flux" and putting 483 00:20:34,810 --> 00:20:37,370 definition-- but then they were mending it here, so, 484 00:20:37,370 --> 00:20:41,310 purge the world of Bourgeois sickness, intellectual, 485 00:20:41,310 --> 00:20:43,220 professional, and commercialized culture. 486 00:20:43,220 --> 00:20:46,320 Purge the world of dead art, imitation, artificial art, 487 00:20:46,320 --> 00:20:48,150 abstract art, illusionistic art, mathematical art. 488 00:20:48,150 --> 00:20:51,762 I like this, purge the world of Europeanism. 489 00:20:51,762 --> 00:20:53,578 I don't think that's a word. 490 00:20:53,578 --> 00:20:55,370 AUDIENCE: [UNINTELLIGIBLE] 491 00:20:55,370 --> 00:20:56,120 GUEST SPEAKER: Promote a revolutionary 492 00:20:56,120 --> 00:20:58,000 flood and tide in art. 493 00:20:58,000 --> 00:21:01,280 Promote living art, anti-art, non-art reality. 494 00:21:01,280 --> 00:21:03,860 These things sound totally crazy. 495 00:21:03,860 --> 00:21:06,720 I love the, "to be fully grasped," but then it crosses 496 00:21:06,720 --> 00:21:10,380 out "fully." I don't doubt that was completely 497 00:21:10,380 --> 00:21:12,440 intentional, or if they wrote fully grasped and were like, 498 00:21:12,440 --> 00:21:13,345 oh, this is gonna be great. 499 00:21:13,345 --> 00:21:14,709 I'm crossing it out so you can see that I 500 00:21:14,709 --> 00:21:15,180 crossed out fully grasped. 501 00:21:15,180 --> 00:21:17,790 We want it to be not fully grasped. 502 00:21:17,790 --> 00:21:20,860 We want it to be partially grasped by all people. 503 00:21:20,860 --> 00:21:24,690 Not only critics feel this class is professional. 504 00:21:24,690 --> 00:21:27,370 It's just a really interesting thing, and it sort of screams 505 00:21:27,370 --> 00:21:28,520 the avant-garde. 506 00:21:28,520 --> 00:21:30,080 They were trying to push against boundaries. 507 00:21:30,080 --> 00:21:32,420 They're trying to figure out what is the edge of the medium 508 00:21:32,420 --> 00:21:35,770 and then how can we jump way off it? 509 00:21:38,450 --> 00:21:41,190 Some of the classic Fluxus works were these things called 510 00:21:41,190 --> 00:21:43,630 Flux boxes or Flux kits. 511 00:21:43,630 --> 00:21:45,270 Flux kits tended to have event scores. 512 00:21:45,270 --> 00:21:46,580 This is one of the most famous called Water 513 00:21:46,580 --> 00:21:48,870 Yam by George Brecht. 514 00:21:48,870 --> 00:21:53,930 And basically this is a box with 70 event scores. 515 00:21:53,930 --> 00:21:56,460 These are an example of these event scores. 516 00:21:56,460 --> 00:21:56,940 It's interesting. 517 00:21:56,940 --> 00:21:59,160 The event scores really seem like rule systems. 518 00:21:59,160 --> 00:22:02,070 They're like the instructions to your board game, except 519 00:22:02,070 --> 00:22:03,803 they're kind of whacky. 520 00:22:03,803 --> 00:22:06,960 If you look at air conditioning, the rule is move 521 00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:08,150 through the place. 522 00:22:08,150 --> 00:22:09,880 Which is really interesting. 523 00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:12,522 If you encounter this game and you're like, all right, I'm 524 00:22:12,522 --> 00:22:13,612 gonna play Water Yam. 525 00:22:13,612 --> 00:22:15,540 And you're like, move through the place. 526 00:22:15,540 --> 00:22:18,840 I think that's pretty characteristic of movement, 527 00:22:18,840 --> 00:22:22,540 right, present you with some sort of objective or some sort 528 00:22:22,540 --> 00:22:27,601 of requirement, but one that is abstract or nebulous, or 529 00:22:27,601 --> 00:22:28,870 just kind of strange. 530 00:22:28,870 --> 00:22:30,400 This one's even better. 531 00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:34,490 On a white chair, a great tape measure, alphabet, flag, 532 00:22:34,490 --> 00:22:36,920 black, and spectral color. 533 00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:38,680 In this instance, it's not even clear what you're 534 00:22:38,680 --> 00:22:39,920 necessarily supposed to do. 535 00:22:39,920 --> 00:22:43,390 Are you supposed to compile these things on a white chair? 536 00:22:43,390 --> 00:22:45,370 Are you supposed to sit on a white chair and hold all of 537 00:22:45,370 --> 00:22:46,521 these things? 538 00:22:46,521 --> 00:22:48,485 It's not particularly clear. 539 00:22:51,280 --> 00:22:52,810 This is the playfulness of this movement. 540 00:22:52,810 --> 00:22:59,870 This is the energy of this of avant-garde movement. 541 00:22:59,870 --> 00:23:02,350 You can see the relationship, I hope, between 542 00:23:02,350 --> 00:23:03,800 rule systems and these. 543 00:23:03,800 --> 00:23:06,386 The next example is, I think, an even better one. 544 00:23:06,386 --> 00:23:07,910 But you can see how they're playing 545 00:23:07,910 --> 00:23:08,560 around with these ideas. 546 00:23:08,560 --> 00:23:10,625 At least they're incorporating interactivity 547 00:23:10,625 --> 00:23:12,070 into these art movements. 548 00:23:12,070 --> 00:23:14,987 And keep in mind, these are being shown in galleries These 549 00:23:14,987 --> 00:23:17,740 are being shown in high-art places. 550 00:23:17,740 --> 00:23:23,285 These are being sent out to their friends as works of art. 551 00:23:23,285 --> 00:23:24,640 This one's great. 552 00:23:24,640 --> 00:23:28,560 This is White Chess by Yoko Ono. 553 00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:31,490 It's often depicted on its own and you have to imagine what 554 00:23:31,490 --> 00:23:31,990 the rules are. 555 00:23:31,990 --> 00:23:34,510 But I actually think her rules as they are written are 556 00:23:34,510 --> 00:23:36,010 actually pretty important to it. 557 00:23:36,010 --> 00:23:38,780 She says, play it for as long as you remember who is your 558 00:23:38,780 --> 00:23:41,640 opponent and who is your own self. 559 00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:44,750 Very interesting wordage. 560 00:23:44,750 --> 00:23:46,665 What are the complications with white chess. 561 00:23:46,665 --> 00:23:47,160 Anyone. 562 00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:47,440 Any thoughts? 563 00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:50,750 Based on your perceptions of non-white chess or 564 00:23:50,750 --> 00:23:52,070 white-and-black chess? 565 00:23:52,070 --> 00:23:55,070 AUDIENCE: You'd get into arguing about is that my pawn 566 00:23:55,070 --> 00:23:56,210 or your pawn? 567 00:23:56,210 --> 00:23:57,760 GUEST SPEAKER: Yes, you definitely-- it will be hard 568 00:23:57,760 --> 00:23:59,560 to keep track of, I would think. 569 00:23:59,560 --> 00:24:01,670 That's why she said, "as long as you can remember." Any 570 00:24:01,670 --> 00:24:04,920 other weirdness from this? 571 00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:06,150 AUDIENCE: Who is friend and who is enemy? 572 00:24:06,150 --> 00:24:07,620 GUEST SPEAKER: Yeah, certainly. 573 00:24:07,620 --> 00:24:09,400 This sort of like, wait, was that my piece? 574 00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:10,100 Was that your piece? 575 00:24:10,100 --> 00:24:13,200 Not only does that complicate your relationship to the other 576 00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:15,670 player, but now it's like, to the game itself, it's like, 577 00:24:15,670 --> 00:24:17,864 wait, what was the strategy I was doing? 578 00:24:17,864 --> 00:24:18,640 AUDIENCE: Friendly or unfriendly fire? 579 00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:20,472 GUEST SPEAKER: I mean, it's really hard to keep track of 580 00:24:20,472 --> 00:24:21,150 stuff in chess. 581 00:24:21,150 --> 00:24:22,480 What about the board? 582 00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:24,170 AUDIENCE: He writes off the king and the queen by mistake 583 00:24:24,170 --> 00:24:25,730 because you don't have to-- 584 00:24:25,730 --> 00:24:28,880 AUDIENCE: There's not really any actual boxes on the board. 585 00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:30,780 AUDIENCE: There are boxes-- 586 00:24:30,780 --> 00:24:33,740 GUEST SPEAKER: Yeah, they're all white. 587 00:24:33,740 --> 00:24:36,915 That complicates things a little bit, too, because you 588 00:24:36,915 --> 00:24:38,870 need to remember how you were moving. 589 00:24:38,870 --> 00:24:39,220 AUDIENCE: How large is-- 590 00:24:39,220 --> 00:24:39,712 GUEST SPEAKER: This one's really big. 591 00:24:39,712 --> 00:24:42,410 This is like a garden installment of White Chess. 592 00:24:42,410 --> 00:24:45,600 And I think the cool thing, too, this is another example 593 00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:47,020 of the movement. 594 00:24:47,020 --> 00:24:48,690 As long as you have the components you 595 00:24:48,690 --> 00:24:49,710 could play this game. 596 00:24:49,710 --> 00:24:51,090 You could create this art piece. 597 00:24:51,090 --> 00:24:54,190 I think the intent is not go play my 598 00:24:54,190 --> 00:24:55,560 installation of White Chess. 599 00:24:55,560 --> 00:24:58,410 It's that this is the rules, these are the 600 00:24:58,410 --> 00:25:00,400 pieces, it can be played. 601 00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:01,850 That screams game, that screams that 602 00:25:01,850 --> 00:25:04,540 portability of a game. 603 00:25:04,540 --> 00:25:08,380 Again, this wasn't considered anything but art, except 604 00:25:08,380 --> 00:25:10,750 probably by people who turned their nose at 605 00:25:10,750 --> 00:25:14,260 this sort of thing. 606 00:25:14,260 --> 00:25:20,100 they've Any thoughts on what White Chess could 607 00:25:20,100 --> 00:25:23,740 be about, in a-- 608 00:25:23,740 --> 00:25:26,150 AUDIENCE: Two different sides merging to one. 609 00:25:26,150 --> 00:25:31,500 And so you eventually get, why am I fighting? 610 00:25:31,500 --> 00:25:33,170 Who is my enemy in this situation? 611 00:25:33,170 --> 00:25:33,620 GUEST SPEAKER: Sure, sure. 612 00:25:33,620 --> 00:25:35,440 Any other thoughts? 613 00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:36,560 AUDIENCE: Racial relations. 614 00:25:36,560 --> 00:25:38,830 GUEST SPEAKER: Sure, racial relations. 615 00:25:38,830 --> 00:25:41,730 AUDIENCE: It's probably a whole antiwar thing of, like, 616 00:25:41,730 --> 00:25:43,560 are we actually destroying ourselves? 617 00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:45,920 GUEST SPEAKER: Yeah, and that's an interesting thing. 618 00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:50,290 Yoko Ono was a decidedly antiwar activist at the time 619 00:25:50,290 --> 00:25:52,790 she was making this in the early '60s. 620 00:25:52,790 --> 00:25:54,975 One thing-- you can't take anything for granted, but the 621 00:25:54,975 --> 00:25:57,060 pieces aren't all black, they're all white. 622 00:25:57,060 --> 00:26:00,179 So I think the race thing does play a factor. 623 00:26:00,179 --> 00:26:02,892 The inability to remember who you're attacking and 624 00:26:02,892 --> 00:26:04,220 who you are, even. 625 00:26:04,220 --> 00:26:06,320 I think that's actually why I really like her words. 626 00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:08,801 Because, "for as long as you can remember who's your 627 00:26:08,801 --> 00:26:10,170 opponent and who is your own self," there's something about 628 00:26:10,170 --> 00:26:13,650 incorporating your own self in there, not just saying what 629 00:26:13,650 --> 00:26:14,710 your pieces are. 630 00:26:14,710 --> 00:26:16,740 She's not saying can you remember what your pieces are. 631 00:26:16,740 --> 00:26:19,100 She's saying remember who you're playing against versus 632 00:26:19,100 --> 00:26:20,996 who you are. 633 00:26:20,996 --> 00:26:25,370 That's very different verbiage. 634 00:26:25,370 --> 00:26:28,680 I think it's very much a game about who are 635 00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:30,250 you fighting, anyway? 636 00:26:30,250 --> 00:26:34,428 What is the point of war, what is the purpose of war? 637 00:26:34,428 --> 00:26:37,230 And how does war particularly function? 638 00:26:37,230 --> 00:26:39,116 And in the rhetoric of the time it makes a 639 00:26:39,116 --> 00:26:41,670 lot of sense, right? 640 00:26:41,670 --> 00:26:44,140 So that's Yoko Ono's White Chess, which is part of the 641 00:26:44,140 --> 00:26:45,260 Fluxus [UNINTELLIGIBLE]. 642 00:26:45,260 --> 00:26:46,620 Yes, it's pretty cool. 643 00:26:46,620 --> 00:26:49,566 Actually, Fluxus and artists in this period have a really 644 00:26:49,566 --> 00:26:51,180 interesting relationship with chess. 645 00:26:51,180 --> 00:26:52,526 There's like some quote, and I'm gonna 646 00:26:52,526 --> 00:26:53,640 butcher it, but it's-- 647 00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:57,690 I think it was Marcel Duchamp saying that not all chess 648 00:26:57,690 --> 00:27:00,350 players are artists, but all artists are chess players, or 649 00:27:00,350 --> 00:27:00,980 something like that. 650 00:27:00,980 --> 00:27:04,050 He is particularly fascinated with chess, and you can see 651 00:27:04,050 --> 00:27:08,020 elements of chess in his work, ought to 652 00:27:08,020 --> 00:27:10,860 be painted or whatever. 653 00:27:10,860 --> 00:27:12,110 AUDIENCE: He was completely obsessed with chess. 654 00:27:12,110 --> 00:27:12,830 GUEST SPEAKER: Yeah. 655 00:27:12,830 --> 00:27:14,805 AUDIENCE: He played it really hard. 656 00:27:14,805 --> 00:27:17,140 He wasn't necessarily a very good player, 657 00:27:17,140 --> 00:27:18,120 but he played a lot. 658 00:27:18,120 --> 00:27:20,080 GUEST SPEAKER: Very into it. 659 00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:22,830 So now I'm gonna move out of this Fluxus movement. 660 00:27:22,830 --> 00:27:24,075 I just wanted to show you a couple examples. 661 00:27:24,075 --> 00:27:27,091 But I think this next one is actually an interesting-- this 662 00:27:27,091 --> 00:27:29,300 is a current theme that I'm really excited about, which is 663 00:27:29,300 --> 00:27:32,436 called Sixteen Tons. 664 00:27:32,436 --> 00:27:34,700 This is a game I unfortunately have not been able to play 665 00:27:34,700 --> 00:27:37,070 yet, but I've witnessed play because it's a 666 00:27:37,070 --> 00:27:37,900 game for four players. 667 00:27:37,900 --> 00:27:42,640 This was created by Eric Zimmerman and Nathalie Pozzi. 668 00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:43,560 It's a really interesting game. 669 00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:45,230 It's a little hard to see from these pictures. 670 00:27:45,230 --> 00:27:47,490 But it's this giant circle, I would say almost the size of 671 00:27:47,490 --> 00:27:50,775 this room, of corrugated cardboard, maybe even bigger, 672 00:27:50,775 --> 00:27:52,350 a little bit bigger than this room. 673 00:27:52,350 --> 00:27:57,840 Inside you've got this array of colored and circles in 674 00:27:57,840 --> 00:28:04,010 these pretty hefty steel tubes that have color. 675 00:28:04,010 --> 00:28:04,920 Let's go through the rules. 676 00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:07,330 The first thing you notice is that they contextualize the 677 00:28:07,330 --> 00:28:11,790 title, Sixteen Tons, with a quote from the song, "You load 678 00:28:11,790 --> 00:28:13,412 16 tons, and what do you get? 679 00:28:13,412 --> 00:28:15,070 Another day older and deeper in debt." 680 00:28:15,070 --> 00:28:18,766 This is doing an interesting thing that John Sharp, who you 681 00:28:18,766 --> 00:28:20,510 can see in the middle, thinks is actually particularly 682 00:28:20,510 --> 00:28:23,710 important for games and games that are working this art 683 00:28:23,710 --> 00:28:26,370 movement is that they declare their intentionality. 684 00:28:26,370 --> 00:28:29,570 Whether they declare what they're meaning is or not is 685 00:28:29,570 --> 00:28:30,640 less important. 686 00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:33,650 To be taken seriously, you take yourself seriously, I 687 00:28:33,650 --> 00:28:35,030 think was one of things he said. 688 00:28:35,030 --> 00:28:38,450 And I think this is another good example when you talk 689 00:28:38,450 --> 00:28:40,600 about how games maybe in the digital space do this. 690 00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:44,480 But right now they're already priming you for reading the 691 00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:47,245 rules in a way that is different than just, ooh, 692 00:28:47,245 --> 00:28:48,750 let's play. 693 00:28:48,750 --> 00:28:52,260 Could you imagine if Monopoly had some sort of Marxist quote 694 00:28:52,260 --> 00:28:53,940 in the front of it, or something like that, your 695 00:28:53,940 --> 00:28:57,360 experience of it would be completely different. 696 00:28:57,360 --> 00:29:00,460 You set up, you put the pieces in this array, you stand on a 697 00:29:00,460 --> 00:29:02,750 number and that indicates what color you are. 698 00:29:02,750 --> 00:29:04,480 And this is great, you take out $3.00. 699 00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:08,180 Although you can see in this second picture they're playing 700 00:29:08,180 --> 00:29:12,485 what Eric the designer has deemed high stakes. 701 00:29:12,485 --> 00:29:16,625 Sixteen Tons where you pull out three five-dollar bills. 702 00:29:16,625 --> 00:29:17,930 It says, how to win. 703 00:29:17,930 --> 00:29:19,740 You win when the two pieces of your color are directly 704 00:29:19,740 --> 00:29:21,460 adjacent to each other. 705 00:29:21,460 --> 00:29:24,142 So diagonally adjacent does not count for a win. 706 00:29:24,142 --> 00:29:25,660 The way you play is, players take turns, starting with 707 00:29:25,660 --> 00:29:26,285 player one. 708 00:29:26,285 --> 00:29:28,320 When it's your turn, you say, put me to work. 709 00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:30,530 Players may then offer to pay you one or more 710 00:29:30,530 --> 00:29:31,880 dollars in any order. 711 00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:34,060 So anyone can just say, I'll give you this. 712 00:29:34,060 --> 00:29:36,130 You have to accept the highest payment, except 713 00:29:36,130 --> 00:29:37,730 if there's a tie. 714 00:29:37,730 --> 00:29:40,420 Because with specific denominations there is very 715 00:29:40,420 --> 00:29:41,140 likely to be a tie. 716 00:29:41,140 --> 00:29:43,570 Then you get to choose which of the highest 717 00:29:43,570 --> 00:29:46,110 bidders you can take. 718 00:29:46,110 --> 00:29:50,700 The person who pays then tells you what move to make. 719 00:29:50,700 --> 00:29:52,480 And if no one offers to pay you, you get to 720 00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:53,991 decide what to do. 721 00:29:53,991 --> 00:29:56,877 And then it's the next player's turn, and you would 722 00:29:56,877 --> 00:29:59,980 continue until one player wins. 723 00:29:59,980 --> 00:30:02,000 Just off the top of your heads, having not even played 724 00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:04,370 it-- it's tough to critique games when you haven't played. 725 00:30:04,370 --> 00:30:06,302 But just looking at the rules and hearing 726 00:30:06,302 --> 00:30:06,850 about it and even-- 727 00:30:06,850 --> 00:30:09,970 I love that picture on the left, because it embodies some 728 00:30:09,970 --> 00:30:12,550 of the spirit of the play, too. 729 00:30:12,550 --> 00:30:14,755 What are some interesting things about this rule set of 730 00:30:14,755 --> 00:30:17,330 that you notice? 731 00:30:17,330 --> 00:30:19,630 AUDIENCE: You play with money, but you won't win money? 732 00:30:19,630 --> 00:30:21,650 GUEST SPEAKER: Well, that's an interesting question. 733 00:30:21,650 --> 00:30:25,434 What happens to the money at the end of the game? 734 00:30:25,434 --> 00:30:25,915 AUDIENCE: Who knows? 735 00:30:25,915 --> 00:30:26,396 Do you keep it? 736 00:30:26,396 --> 00:30:27,839 AUDIENCE: It's unclear. 737 00:30:27,839 --> 00:30:29,550 GUEST SPEAKER: Very unclear. 738 00:30:29,550 --> 00:30:31,620 That's one of the things that's really great about this 739 00:30:31,620 --> 00:30:35,470 game, is that it puts you to into these social situations 740 00:30:35,470 --> 00:30:37,190 where now you're playing with real currency 741 00:30:37,190 --> 00:30:38,210 that was your own. 742 00:30:38,210 --> 00:30:42,160 And now it's like, what happens to this? 743 00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:44,600 It says you win if your piece-- but maybe you feel 744 00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:46,790 like you win if you moved those pieces and you have the 745 00:30:46,790 --> 00:30:48,500 most money at the end of the game. 746 00:30:48,500 --> 00:30:51,620 You've got this kind of weird economy in here. 747 00:30:51,620 --> 00:30:54,697 I think the fact that it's not explicit in 748 00:30:54,697 --> 00:30:56,230 this rule set is great. 749 00:30:56,230 --> 00:30:59,590 That's what creates this potential for an interesting 750 00:30:59,590 --> 00:31:00,380 social dynamic. 751 00:31:00,380 --> 00:31:02,870 Other things that are interesting about this game? 752 00:31:02,870 --> 00:31:05,060 AUDIENCE: If you're the only person who has money, then you 753 00:31:05,060 --> 00:31:05,360 can basically win. 754 00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:07,230 GUEST SPEAKER: You can basically win if you're the 755 00:31:07,230 --> 00:31:08,090 only person who has money, yeah. 756 00:31:08,090 --> 00:31:11,590 So it does require a little bit of strategy, too. 757 00:31:11,590 --> 00:31:14,090 AUDIENCE: Technically, from that set of-- 758 00:31:14,090 --> 00:31:16,725 could you win on the first turn, because it seems you 759 00:31:16,725 --> 00:31:20,640 only have two pieces of a certain color. 760 00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:22,630 AUDIENCE: Yeah, but the right is still 761 00:31:22,630 --> 00:31:23,410 the starting position. 762 00:31:23,410 --> 00:31:24,250 AUDIENCE: Yeah, Iknow. 763 00:31:24,250 --> 00:31:29,140 And so on your turn, you could take one-- your piece and have 764 00:31:29,140 --> 00:31:31,640 it be moved to the square right next to yours. 765 00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:32,200 AUDIENCE: No. 766 00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:33,520 AUDIENCE: Move to any adjacent-- 767 00:31:33,520 --> 00:31:35,290 AUDIENCE: Oh, you have to move it-- 768 00:31:35,290 --> 00:31:37,305 AUDIENCE: Read the rule in the red there. 769 00:31:37,305 --> 00:31:39,125 AUDIENCE: Oh, any adjacent number,okay. 770 00:31:39,125 --> 00:31:40,490 I didn't read the adjacent part. 771 00:31:40,490 --> 00:31:42,203 GUEST SPEAKER: Yeah, it's any adjacent or empty square. 772 00:31:42,203 --> 00:31:43,600 AUDIENCE: It's actually really interesting. 773 00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:45,690 GUEST SPEAKER: Yeah, it's a really weird-- 774 00:31:45,690 --> 00:31:51,250 I also think you're not-- the agency you have in the game to 775 00:31:51,250 --> 00:31:54,460 win is not by moving your own pieces, it's by paying someone 776 00:31:54,460 --> 00:31:56,030 to do the work for you. 777 00:31:56,030 --> 00:31:58,448 So then we get back to this quote at the beginning, "You 778 00:31:58,448 --> 00:31:59,344 load 16 tons and what do you get? 779 00:31:59,344 --> 00:32:00,240 Another day older and deeper in debt." 780 00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:02,720 It's like, what is this game about. 781 00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:03,710 It could be about a lot of things. 782 00:32:03,710 --> 00:32:06,670 And we honestly probably shouldn't dissect it until 783 00:32:06,670 --> 00:32:08,610 we've played it. 784 00:32:08,610 --> 00:32:12,940 I think, too, the corrugated cardboard, it gets hot inside 785 00:32:12,940 --> 00:32:14,330 of there, if you're not outside. 786 00:32:14,330 --> 00:32:15,910 And that's a really interesting thing, too. 787 00:32:15,910 --> 00:32:19,570 You're in there, it's hot, it's sweaty, you've got dirty 788 00:32:19,570 --> 00:32:23,010 money in your hands, you're moving around these sizable-- 789 00:32:23,010 --> 00:32:24,249 they have weight to them. 790 00:32:24,249 --> 00:32:25,686 That was really important, too. 791 00:32:25,686 --> 00:32:28,081 This could have been played around a table with go-pieces 792 00:32:28,081 --> 00:32:29,518 or something, painted go-pieces. 793 00:32:29,518 --> 00:32:34,077 But these are substantial steel pieces that you've got 794 00:32:34,077 --> 00:32:36,040 to pick up and move. 795 00:32:36,040 --> 00:32:40,730 Obviously the song was about manual labor. 796 00:32:40,730 --> 00:32:42,530 So this is a really interesting game. 797 00:32:42,530 --> 00:32:44,270 This was released at the Art History of Games 798 00:32:44,270 --> 00:32:45,420 conference last year. 799 00:32:45,420 --> 00:32:46,760 And it did well at IndieCade this year. 800 00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:48,840 It won the Developers Choice Award. 801 00:32:48,840 --> 00:32:50,890 And it's really cool. 802 00:32:50,890 --> 00:32:52,640 I want to try to get it up to MIT so that we 803 00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:53,950 can all play it. 804 00:32:53,950 --> 00:32:57,030 AUDIENCE: It occurs to me that if you went by rules where you 805 00:32:57,030 --> 00:32:59,400 keep the money you get to the end of the game, you basically 806 00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:01,580 could throw the game to get all the money. 807 00:33:01,580 --> 00:33:03,200 GUEST SPEAKER: Yeah, you could try. 808 00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:05,760 But people are gonna know what you're doing. 809 00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:06,870 Because they're going to see you're shiny. 810 00:33:06,870 --> 00:33:07,520 So it's-- 811 00:33:07,520 --> 00:33:08,660 AUDIENCE: I'm not gonna pay you back. 812 00:33:08,660 --> 00:33:10,020 GUEST SPEAKER: Yeah, the multiplayer gets-- 813 00:33:10,020 --> 00:33:14,690 the multiplayer, the game gets in it. 814 00:33:14,690 --> 00:33:16,696 Just cycling back to what we're talking 815 00:33:16,696 --> 00:33:19,800 about, is this art? 816 00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:24,260 It would be hard for me to call it much of anything else. 817 00:33:24,260 --> 00:33:28,000 So this is one of my favorite games. 818 00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:30,300 It's certainly my favorite that Jason's ever made. 819 00:33:30,300 --> 00:33:31,940 Who's played Gravitation here? 820 00:33:31,940 --> 00:33:32,400 A couple of games? 821 00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:33,070 Alright, cool. 822 00:33:33,070 --> 00:33:34,070 And a bunch of you haven't. 823 00:33:34,070 --> 00:33:34,785 That's awesome. 824 00:33:34,785 --> 00:33:36,250 So I'll get one of you to play it. 825 00:33:36,250 --> 00:33:38,790 One thing I want to point out with this-- we can talk after 826 00:33:38,790 --> 00:33:43,150 someone's played Gravitation, a little bit about what we 827 00:33:43,150 --> 00:33:44,260 think about the game itself. 828 00:33:44,260 --> 00:33:45,660 But I think this quote is interesting. 829 00:33:45,660 --> 00:33:47,980 He has artist statements with all of his games. 830 00:33:47,980 --> 00:33:50,510 Some of them say more, some of them say less. 831 00:33:50,510 --> 00:33:53,270 This one responded briefly 'cause this was after Passage 832 00:33:53,270 --> 00:33:53,590 was released. 833 00:33:53,590 --> 00:33:55,910 And I think you guys have all seen Passage, right? 834 00:33:55,910 --> 00:33:58,740 You can immediately identify the aesthetic similarities 835 00:33:58,740 --> 00:34:01,562 because the character is exactly the same. 836 00:34:01,562 --> 00:34:04,900 He was responding to criticism from people about his pixel 837 00:34:04,900 --> 00:34:07,435 art, and why did he go for Pixel art. 838 00:34:07,435 --> 00:34:10,639 He says, "I now see ultra-low res pixel art as a kind of 839 00:34:10,639 --> 00:34:12,159 digital cartooning. 840 00:34:12,159 --> 00:34:14,150 It stands right on the line between the symbolic and the 841 00:34:14,150 --> 00:34:16,100 representational, leaving plenty of room for viewer 842 00:34:16,100 --> 00:34:17,360 interpretation. 843 00:34:17,360 --> 00:34:20,565 Why draw sideburns when the viewers can imagine sideburns 844 00:34:20,565 --> 00:34:21,539 on their own. 845 00:34:21,539 --> 00:34:22,876 You just need to give them something to pin their 846 00:34:22,876 --> 00:34:24,948 imagination on, something to guide them a bit. 847 00:34:24,948 --> 00:34:25,922 Cartoons are perfect for that. 848 00:34:25,922 --> 00:34:27,889 I think it's a really interesting point. 849 00:34:27,889 --> 00:34:31,690 And I think what he's also suggesting here, which is 850 00:34:31,690 --> 00:34:34,260 maybe not clear, is that this is doing a similar thing to 851 00:34:34,260 --> 00:34:36,621 what that quote from the music does. 852 00:34:36,621 --> 00:34:39,384 It's priming your experience of the play. 853 00:34:39,384 --> 00:34:41,909 You load up this game, you see that it's got this low-res 854 00:34:41,909 --> 00:34:44,320 pixel art that we now associate with this kind of 855 00:34:44,320 --> 00:34:46,305 art game movement, and you're ready to read 856 00:34:46,305 --> 00:34:47,889 this in another way. 857 00:34:47,889 --> 00:34:51,060 If I gave you a first-person shooter and told you nothing 858 00:34:51,060 --> 00:34:52,900 about it except that it was gonna be the fastest, 859 00:34:52,900 --> 00:34:54,469 awesomest, multiplayer first-person shooter 860 00:34:54,469 --> 00:34:59,800 experience, but it looked like this, would you be inclined to 861 00:34:59,800 --> 00:35:01,750 read it like an art game? 862 00:35:01,750 --> 00:35:02,900 I don't know. 863 00:35:02,900 --> 00:35:05,150 But certainly in this instance with these kind of little 864 00:35:05,150 --> 00:35:08,500 games, this pixel-art aesthetic that you see being 865 00:35:08,500 --> 00:35:14,110 duplicated in a lot of places, is sort of priming the pump. 866 00:35:14,110 --> 00:35:17,340 It's establishing some sort of context in which you 867 00:35:17,340 --> 00:35:18,580 can read this game. 868 00:35:18,580 --> 00:35:22,285 So who wants to play Gravitation? 869 00:35:22,285 --> 00:35:25,231 Oops, no, that's not what's supposed to happen. 870 00:35:25,231 --> 00:35:26,704 Why did it click on link. 871 00:35:26,704 --> 00:35:29,650 Oh, 'cause I clicked on my screen, not on this screen. 872 00:35:29,650 --> 00:35:30,091 All that does is take me out of here. 873 00:35:30,091 --> 00:35:31,341 Yay. 874 00:35:33,090 --> 00:35:34,150 AUDIENCE: Me not being here, it might be a problem. 875 00:35:34,150 --> 00:35:36,954 Let's see. 876 00:35:36,954 --> 00:35:40,950 Let's see what screen it's logged up on. 877 00:35:40,950 --> 00:35:42,950 One. 878 00:35:42,950 --> 00:35:44,060 GUEST SPEAKER: Hold on one sec. 879 00:35:44,060 --> 00:35:45,310 I've got a mirror on my screen. 880 00:35:49,930 --> 00:35:53,840 I should not be choosing who plays. 881 00:35:53,840 --> 00:35:54,920 Who wants to-- 882 00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:55,433 I can't make the choice. 883 00:35:55,433 --> 00:35:56,720 Who wants to do it? 884 00:35:56,720 --> 00:35:58,740 AUDIENCE: Interesting that it's a version zero. 885 00:35:58,740 --> 00:36:00,940 You have to explicitly make that the case. 886 00:36:03,450 --> 00:36:04,870 GUEST SPEAKER: Anybody. 887 00:36:04,870 --> 00:36:07,683 It's free to download, so if you don't play it now, you can 888 00:36:07,683 --> 00:36:08,510 play it on your own. 889 00:36:08,510 --> 00:36:11,530 AUDIENCE: We have a few games, right? 890 00:36:11,530 --> 00:36:12,910 GUEST SPEAKER: Yeah, we have a few. 891 00:36:12,910 --> 00:36:16,720 We have a few opportunities, so anybody jump over and play. 892 00:36:16,720 --> 00:36:19,165 AUDIENCE: Just talk with Jason, and then we'll do join 893 00:36:19,165 --> 00:36:20,310 me in Dubai-- 894 00:36:20,310 --> 00:36:22,360 GUEST SPEAKER: And actually, if you wouldn't mind talking 895 00:36:22,360 --> 00:36:25,730 about your experience to play Gravitation as you play it. 896 00:36:25,730 --> 00:36:28,830 Let's play, but live, say. 897 00:36:28,830 --> 00:36:29,140 [GAME MUSIC] 898 00:36:29,140 --> 00:36:34,206 AUDIENCE: I seem to have a restricted 899 00:36:34,206 --> 00:36:38,560 view, and it's falling. 900 00:36:38,560 --> 00:36:39,810 I caught it. 901 00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:46,050 AUDIENCE: She stole your ball. 902 00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:53,906 GUEST SPEAKER: She seemed to like you, but she stole it for 903 00:36:53,906 --> 00:36:54,080 the moment. 904 00:36:54,080 --> 00:36:56,120 Now she seems to be playing, which is better. 905 00:36:56,120 --> 00:36:58,680 AUDIENCE: We seem to-- he bats it back and forth and my 906 00:36:58,680 --> 00:37:01,600 screen gets bigger whenever I especially do so. 907 00:37:01,600 --> 00:37:02,850 And it's getting brighter. 908 00:37:05,996 --> 00:37:09,804 AUDIENCE: It gets bigger when she loves you. 909 00:37:09,804 --> 00:37:12,066 AUDIENCE: It changes this fiery thing and it seems to be 910 00:37:12,066 --> 00:37:13,316 batting the ball more. 911 00:37:17,890 --> 00:37:20,060 [UNINTELLIGIBLE] 912 00:37:20,060 --> 00:37:20,660 AUDIENCE: You're on fire. 913 00:37:20,660 --> 00:37:21,910 [UNINTELLIGIBLE] 914 00:37:25,050 --> 00:37:26,330 AUDIENCE: I'm on fire. 915 00:37:26,330 --> 00:37:29,108 This seems bad. 916 00:37:29,108 --> 00:37:29,571 Now I'm really confused. 917 00:37:29,571 --> 00:37:31,250 AUDIENCE: You should go to the furnace. 918 00:37:34,024 --> 00:37:35,100 AUDIENCE: Oh, now you're not on fire. 919 00:37:35,100 --> 00:37:36,350 That makes sense. 920 00:37:38,870 --> 00:37:40,120 Whoa! 921 00:37:42,650 --> 00:37:44,840 AUDIENCE: Wait, can you bounce the ball up there? 922 00:37:44,840 --> 00:37:46,471 I didn't see anything that showing me 923 00:37:46,471 --> 00:37:47,770 how to get up there. 924 00:37:47,770 --> 00:37:48,770 Oh, here we go. 925 00:37:48,770 --> 00:37:50,020 AUDIENCE: Isn't that always the case? 926 00:37:52,410 --> 00:37:53,660 AUDIENCE: What's that star? 927 00:37:57,050 --> 00:37:58,530 Uh-oh. 928 00:37:58,530 --> 00:38:00,150 Well, now you can bounce the ball up here. 929 00:38:00,150 --> 00:38:03,660 AUDIENCE: Oh, you can jump higher when she loves you. 930 00:38:03,660 --> 00:38:04,927 AUDIENCE: --the size of the screen. 931 00:38:04,927 --> 00:38:06,940 AUDIENCE: Yeah, that's how high you can jump . 932 00:38:06,940 --> 00:38:08,770 OK, so-- 933 00:38:08,770 --> 00:38:10,450 I guess maybe bounce it more to get higher? 934 00:38:16,240 --> 00:38:17,490 AUDIENCE: You're losing her. 935 00:38:19,174 --> 00:38:21,460 AUDIENCE: I'm on fire again. 936 00:38:21,460 --> 00:38:22,910 Oh, but you're gonna be on fire in a while. 937 00:38:22,910 --> 00:38:25,790 She's not gonna love you very soon. 938 00:38:25,790 --> 00:38:27,760 AUDIENCE: Yeah, apparently getting the 939 00:38:27,760 --> 00:38:29,340 stars is also good. 940 00:38:34,860 --> 00:38:36,862 AUDIENCE: It seems it goes faster and faster the higher 941 00:38:36,862 --> 00:38:38,330 up you get, I think. 942 00:38:38,330 --> 00:38:41,140 Or maybe the more stars you eat. 943 00:38:41,140 --> 00:38:42,390 AUDIENCE: And that's all ice. 944 00:38:44,760 --> 00:38:45,130 Oh, yes. 945 00:38:45,130 --> 00:38:46,640 She seems happier when I bounce the ball. 946 00:38:46,640 --> 00:38:48,400 I guess-- 947 00:38:48,400 --> 00:38:53,720 so I don't have a which is I think the start of it because 948 00:38:53,720 --> 00:38:57,640 the stars into the fire so that they melt or something. 949 00:38:57,640 --> 00:38:58,890 [UNINTELLIGIBLE] 950 00:39:01,470 --> 00:39:04,284 AUDIENCE: Oh, now it's a star. 951 00:39:04,284 --> 00:39:05,700 Interesting. 952 00:39:05,700 --> 00:39:07,600 AUDIENCE: Well, there's been [UNINTELLIGIBLE]. 953 00:39:07,600 --> 00:39:10,090 AUDIENCE: What? 954 00:39:10,090 --> 00:39:10,240 AUDIENCE: All right. 955 00:39:10,240 --> 00:39:12,890 Look what's [UNINTELLIGIBLE] into the fire. 956 00:39:12,890 --> 00:39:13,810 AUDIENCE: Otherwise, he's gonna have a hammer. 957 00:39:13,810 --> 00:39:16,475 AUDIENCE: Yeah, you're dead. 958 00:39:20,570 --> 00:39:25,080 AUDIENCE: The numbers of the stars are all going down. 959 00:39:25,080 --> 00:39:25,937 The ball can't get to you. 960 00:39:25,937 --> 00:39:28,739 It's [UNINTELLIGIBLE]. 961 00:39:28,739 --> 00:39:29,989 AUDIENCE: OK, now I can-- 962 00:39:32,182 --> 00:39:34,724 --push the ice into the fire? 963 00:39:34,724 --> 00:39:37,535 AUDIENCE: And the number on the top goes up every time 964 00:39:37,535 --> 00:39:40,655 you-- yeah, the numbers on the star corresponds 965 00:39:40,655 --> 00:39:41,905 to how many, like-- 966 00:39:45,297 --> 00:39:46,764 AUDIENCE: You know, fire seems like it would be bad. 967 00:39:54,500 --> 00:39:55,750 AUDIENCE: Yeah. 968 00:40:00,130 --> 00:40:03,130 AUDIENCE: Try to get rid of the ice-- 969 00:40:03,130 --> 00:40:05,400 AUDIENCE: But she doesn't want to play. 970 00:40:05,400 --> 00:40:06,870 AUDIENCE: That's because I got rid of the ice. 971 00:40:06,870 --> 00:40:08,220 He was happy I think. 972 00:40:08,220 --> 00:40:11,108 AUDIENCE: Oh, it's getting icy, though. 973 00:40:11,108 --> 00:40:14,360 It's getting colder. 974 00:40:14,360 --> 00:40:16,420 There's no way to recharge my thing, though. 975 00:40:16,420 --> 00:40:17,280 GUEST SPEAKER: I think you just have to go higher. 976 00:40:17,280 --> 00:40:18,883 This is where you were last time, I think. 977 00:40:18,883 --> 00:40:20,133 Yeah, there. 978 00:40:27,410 --> 00:40:28,660 AUDIENCE: That was really like-- 979 00:40:32,540 --> 00:40:34,340 AUDIENCE: Do you think [UNINTELLIGIBLE] too fast, and 980 00:40:34,340 --> 00:40:36,365 your hair's burning, that means you just gave him too 981 00:40:36,365 --> 00:40:38,030 much love, and he starts falling really fast. 982 00:40:40,710 --> 00:40:41,960 AUDIENCE: Oh, no. 983 00:40:44,600 --> 00:40:47,445 AUDIENCE: But there's a a counter on the ice blocks of 984 00:40:47,445 --> 00:40:50,850 the stars, and you get more points if you get them into 985 00:40:50,850 --> 00:40:53,570 the furnace faster. 986 00:40:53,570 --> 00:40:55,286 I think they went down and he started 987 00:40:55,286 --> 00:40:55,754 warming up in the furnace. 988 00:40:55,754 --> 00:40:58,450 The warmer the world, the less points you get for de-icing? 989 00:40:58,450 --> 00:40:59,950 AUDIENCE: Is this about global warming? 990 00:41:03,450 --> 00:41:04,200 AUDIENCE: I think he's on drugs. 991 00:41:04,200 --> 00:41:08,290 He gets love from this girl, and then the ice and the stars 992 00:41:08,290 --> 00:41:10,140 make you happy, but only for a little bit. 993 00:41:17,472 --> 00:41:19,862 Yeah. 994 00:41:19,862 --> 00:41:21,112 Yeah. 995 00:41:27,480 --> 00:41:29,480 AUDIENCE: So if I'm on fire it seems to reduce at a much 996 00:41:29,480 --> 00:41:30,730 faster rate. 997 00:41:43,210 --> 00:41:45,290 [INAUDIBLE] 998 00:41:45,290 --> 00:41:48,330 said 999 00:41:48,330 --> 00:41:50,370 AUDIENCE: I think it's about drugs. 1000 00:41:50,370 --> 00:41:51,810 I think everything's about drugs. 1001 00:41:51,810 --> 00:41:53,230 I mean, yeah, obviously. 1002 00:41:57,577 --> 00:41:59,509 AUDIENCE: You can actually catch the purple 1003 00:41:59,509 --> 00:42:00,759 guy into that cave. 1004 00:42:04,836 --> 00:42:05,655 AUDIENCE: Oh, no. 1005 00:42:05,655 --> 00:42:08,875 AUDIENCE: It's a really stupid design, going all the way back 1006 00:42:08,875 --> 00:42:09,600 down there. 1007 00:42:09,600 --> 00:42:10,830 GUEST SPEAKER: There's a [INAUDIBLE] on the right, you 1008 00:42:10,830 --> 00:42:12,578 can fall faster. 1009 00:42:12,578 --> 00:42:16,232 AUDIENCE: The higher you climb, the further you fall. 1010 00:42:16,232 --> 00:42:17,630 AUDIENCE: Ooh, poetic. 1011 00:42:17,630 --> 00:42:20,622 AUDIENCE: Now I probably have a [UNINTELLIGIBLE] stars, so I 1012 00:42:20,622 --> 00:42:22,066 think they need to play-- 1013 00:42:22,066 --> 00:42:22,500 AUDIENCE: She's gone. 1014 00:42:22,500 --> 00:42:24,404 AUDIENCE: She's dead. 1015 00:42:24,404 --> 00:42:25,880 You killed her. 1016 00:42:25,880 --> 00:42:26,372 AUDIENCE: So sad. 1017 00:42:26,372 --> 00:42:29,940 And it's not the fire left. 1018 00:42:29,940 --> 00:42:31,090 AUDIENCE: Oh, no. 1019 00:42:31,090 --> 00:42:33,740 AUDIENCE:And the fire isn't bringing things back. 1020 00:42:33,740 --> 00:42:34,630 AUDIENCE: Oh, my god. 1021 00:42:34,630 --> 00:42:37,445 You didn't get any stars for her, so she died. 1022 00:42:37,445 --> 00:42:39,230 She eats stars. 1023 00:42:39,230 --> 00:42:40,510 AUDIENCE: Oh, there you go. 1024 00:42:40,510 --> 00:42:41,265 Is she there now? 1025 00:42:41,265 --> 00:42:42,960 The fire started warming you again. 1026 00:42:45,780 --> 00:42:46,250 AUDIENCE: Nope. 1027 00:42:46,250 --> 00:42:47,530 She's gone forever. 1028 00:42:47,530 --> 00:42:48,800 You can't play ball alone. 1029 00:42:48,800 --> 00:42:49,880 AUDIENCE: When she's gone. 1030 00:42:49,880 --> 00:42:51,265 Maybe she only comes in the spring. 1031 00:42:51,265 --> 00:42:52,490 Maybe winter's too cold. 1032 00:42:52,490 --> 00:42:54,720 So maybe if I wait by the fire. 1033 00:42:54,720 --> 00:42:55,970 AUDIENCE: Does is go faster right there? 1034 00:43:01,150 --> 00:43:03,790 AUDIENCE: Yeah, why is it getting bigger? 1035 00:43:03,790 --> 00:43:05,160 AUDIENCE: 'Cause he's by the fire. 1036 00:43:05,160 --> 00:43:06,298 It's getting warmer. 1037 00:43:06,298 --> 00:43:07,732 AUDIENCE: That wasn't working earlier. 1038 00:43:07,732 --> 00:43:08,982 AUDIENCE: Now it is. 1039 00:43:11,360 --> 00:43:12,425 AUDIENCE: He's at rock bottom. 1040 00:43:12,425 --> 00:43:13,810 AUDIENCE: Looks like it's spring. 1041 00:43:13,810 --> 00:43:16,600 AUDIENCE: But when she-- 1042 00:43:16,600 --> 00:43:17,570 AUDIENCE: How high can you jump right now? 1043 00:43:17,570 --> 00:43:20,130 AUDIENCE: Can you hit the ball? 1044 00:43:20,130 --> 00:43:20,780 AUDIENCE: Pretty high. 1045 00:43:20,780 --> 00:43:23,342 That's a lot of jumbos. 1046 00:43:23,342 --> 00:43:25,306 AUDIENCE: No, I can't hit the ball. 1047 00:43:25,306 --> 00:43:26,430 AUDIENCE: Only she can hit the ball. 1048 00:43:26,430 --> 00:43:27,682 AUDIENCE: While you're increasing, you should 1049 00:43:27,682 --> 00:43:29,460 probably go up and get-- 1050 00:43:29,460 --> 00:43:30,500 AUDIENCE: Go up. 1051 00:43:30,500 --> 00:43:30,950 Go up. 1052 00:43:30,950 --> 00:43:32,301 Go up. 1053 00:43:32,301 --> 00:43:34,656 AUDIENCE: Ah, there you go. 1054 00:43:34,656 --> 00:43:35,930 AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE] stop [INAUDIBLE]. 1055 00:43:35,930 --> 00:43:39,570 It stopped contracting, too. 1056 00:43:39,570 --> 00:43:40,777 AUDIENCE: You're on fire now. 1057 00:43:40,777 --> 00:43:43,212 AUDIENCE: He's on fire. 1058 00:43:43,212 --> 00:43:44,673 AUDIENCE: Can you go [UNINTELLIGIBLE] 1059 00:43:44,673 --> 00:43:45,923 high if he's on fire? 1060 00:43:49,543 --> 00:43:51,004 AUDIENCE: Uh-oh. 1061 00:43:51,004 --> 00:43:52,952 Whoa. 1062 00:43:52,952 --> 00:43:55,410 Four stars. 1063 00:43:55,410 --> 00:43:57,030 AUDIENCE: Are you getting all of them? 1064 00:43:57,030 --> 00:44:01,750 AUDIENCE: That might have been a bit of overdose. 1065 00:44:01,750 --> 00:44:05,170 AUDIENCE: You totally OD'd on stars just there. 1066 00:44:05,170 --> 00:44:08,250 AUDIENCE: Or, or, you can only hold four, and then it 1067 00:44:08,250 --> 00:44:11,480 retracts and you get four that turn to ice blocks. 1068 00:44:11,480 --> 00:44:12,690 AUDIENCE: What? 1069 00:44:12,690 --> 00:44:13,800 That was intense. 1070 00:44:13,800 --> 00:44:15,950 AUDIENCE: That's a lot of falling. 1071 00:44:15,950 --> 00:44:19,690 AUDIENCE: There was so much energy. 1072 00:44:19,690 --> 00:44:20,940 AUDIENCE: Wait. 1073 00:44:23,100 --> 00:44:24,100 No. 1074 00:44:24,100 --> 00:44:25,350 No. 1075 00:44:30,100 --> 00:44:30,940 AUDIENCE: You won. 1076 00:44:30,940 --> 00:44:32,190 Yay! 1077 00:44:33,820 --> 00:44:36,390 Now what you won is a good question. 1078 00:44:36,390 --> 00:44:37,500 GUEST SPEAKER: That's Gravitation. 1079 00:44:37,500 --> 00:44:38,810 Actually, I'm not even kidding. 1080 00:44:38,810 --> 00:44:42,460 That's certainly my favorite Jason Rohrer game. 1081 00:44:42,460 --> 00:44:43,998 It's one of my favorite games. 1082 00:44:43,998 --> 00:44:46,722 And I think even just the example of you guys playing is 1083 00:44:46,722 --> 00:44:49,740 great, because you're just shouting out all these 1084 00:44:49,740 --> 00:44:51,400 different ideas for what it could be about. 1085 00:44:54,840 --> 00:45:00,362 There's some clear intentionality in his design 1086 00:45:00,362 --> 00:45:03,196 with this game, in terms of the system's trying to 1087 00:45:03,196 --> 00:45:05,320 communicate something that's other than just 1088 00:45:05,320 --> 00:45:09,470 engagement or fun. 1089 00:45:09,470 --> 00:45:10,758 Was it fun? 1090 00:45:10,758 --> 00:45:11,166 AUDIENCE: Yeah. 1091 00:45:11,166 --> 00:45:11,982 GUEST SPEAKER: Oh, all right. 1092 00:45:11,982 --> 00:45:13,330 Cool. 1093 00:45:13,330 --> 00:45:14,890 Yeah, it's pretty good. 1094 00:45:14,890 --> 00:45:16,090 Thoughts on what it's about? 1095 00:45:16,090 --> 00:45:17,428 I heard a couple people be like, drugs. 1096 00:45:17,428 --> 00:45:19,212 AUDIENCE: It's definitely drugs. 1097 00:45:19,212 --> 00:45:21,806 I saw tons of analogies. 1098 00:45:21,806 --> 00:45:24,250 GUEST SPEAKER: Yeah, it's kind of like drugs. 1099 00:45:24,250 --> 00:45:24,670 AUDIENCE: Or love. 1100 00:45:24,670 --> 00:45:25,680 Or both. 1101 00:45:25,680 --> 00:45:27,370 AUDIENCE: Love is a drug. 1102 00:45:27,370 --> 00:45:29,410 AUDIENCE: Your relationship versus whatever you're trying 1103 00:45:29,410 --> 00:45:30,790 to do for your career. 1104 00:45:30,790 --> 00:45:32,040 GUEST SPEAKER: Yeah. 1105 00:45:33,655 --> 00:45:36,570 I think it's like the ultimate MIT game. 1106 00:45:36,570 --> 00:45:41,530 If I told you that this was his daughter, would it change 1107 00:45:41,530 --> 00:45:44,050 your interpretations of the game? 1108 00:45:44,050 --> 00:45:45,390 AUDIENCE: Yes. 1109 00:45:45,390 --> 00:45:47,940 GUEST SPEAKER: So now, if you know that that's his daughter, 1110 00:45:47,940 --> 00:45:50,020 what do you think it's about? 1111 00:45:50,020 --> 00:45:51,680 AUDIENCE: Neglect. 1112 00:45:51,680 --> 00:45:55,550 AUDIENCE: Job versus family. 1113 00:45:55,550 --> 00:45:57,860 GUEST SPEAKER: He says explicitly, before you play, 1114 00:45:57,860 --> 00:45:59,350 that this is a game of motivation. 1115 00:45:59,350 --> 00:46:03,090 He doesn't go too far into telling you what the game is 1116 00:46:03,090 --> 00:46:04,000 specifically about. 1117 00:46:04,000 --> 00:46:05,260 I think playing through it a couple times-- 1118 00:46:05,260 --> 00:46:09,350 I will tell you the first time I played and I came back down 1119 00:46:09,350 --> 00:46:12,070 and she was gone, it was very upsetting for me. 1120 00:46:12,070 --> 00:46:17,540 I was like, and I don't know if it's just I was ready to 1121 00:46:17,540 --> 00:46:20,510 play it that way, or my life stage or something like that. 1122 00:46:20,510 --> 00:46:23,647 But the idea of he's playing with his daughter, that 1123 00:46:23,647 --> 00:46:26,700 inspires him, he travels, and then one of these days if 1124 00:46:26,700 --> 00:46:29,530 you're gone too long, she grows up. 1125 00:46:29,530 --> 00:46:31,330 I don't know if she dies, but-- 1126 00:46:31,330 --> 00:46:34,650 AUDIENCE: He didn't bring her any money. 1127 00:46:34,650 --> 00:46:38,640 Because she had no money, she dies [INAUDIBLE]. 1128 00:46:38,640 --> 00:46:42,120 GUEST SPEAKER: So I think this is a really-- 1129 00:46:42,120 --> 00:46:43,360 AUDIENCE: What did they say, it's a game about motivation? 1130 00:46:43,360 --> 00:46:45,660 GUEST SPEAKER: It is, yeah. 1131 00:46:45,660 --> 00:46:47,770 AUDIENCE: Or she OD'd on drugs. 1132 00:46:47,770 --> 00:46:48,350 GUEST SPEAKER: It's free. 1133 00:46:48,350 --> 00:46:50,320 If you just Google-search Gravitation Jason Rohrer, 1134 00:46:50,320 --> 00:46:51,600 you'll find the links to it. 1135 00:46:51,600 --> 00:46:53,510 You'll find his artist statement, which I think is 1136 00:46:53,510 --> 00:46:55,070 really good to read. 1137 00:46:55,070 --> 00:46:57,850 Again, with John Sharp's point about declare your 1138 00:46:57,850 --> 00:46:58,400 intentionality. 1139 00:46:58,400 --> 00:47:02,370 Whatever you say what game's about is important. 1140 00:47:02,370 --> 00:47:05,800 I think this qualifies, at least for me, as art. 1141 00:47:05,800 --> 00:47:11,230 It's doing things that I see other piece of art doing. 1142 00:47:11,230 --> 00:47:12,710 GUEST SPEAKER: OK, so Paolo Pedercini-- 1143 00:47:12,710 --> 00:47:13,540 how many over time? 1144 00:47:13,540 --> 00:47:14,610 Oh, good. 1145 00:47:14,610 --> 00:47:17,240 Paolo Pedercini is one of my favorite game 1146 00:47:17,240 --> 00:47:18,220 designers right now. 1147 00:47:18,220 --> 00:47:21,916 This game actually is one of his newest ones, and I think 1148 00:47:21,916 --> 00:47:24,060 it's hilarious and great. 1149 00:47:24,060 --> 00:47:26,120 It's called Memory Reloaded The Downfall. 1150 00:47:26,120 --> 00:47:28,480 Test your concentration with Memory Reloaded matching game 1151 00:47:28,480 --> 00:47:29,995 for these unstable times. 1152 00:47:29,995 --> 00:47:32,830 History may be different from that which you remember. 1153 00:47:32,830 --> 00:47:34,330 Who would like to play Memory Reloaded? 1154 00:47:34,330 --> 00:47:35,950 I'm laughing already, because it's funny. 1155 00:47:35,950 --> 00:47:36,750 Has anybody played it? 1156 00:47:36,750 --> 00:47:38,090 I need somebody who's not played it. 1157 00:47:38,090 --> 00:47:38,690 OK, good. 1158 00:47:38,690 --> 00:47:39,450 Do you [UNINTELLIGIBLE]? 1159 00:47:39,450 --> 00:47:39,870 AUDIENCE: Sure. 1160 00:47:39,870 --> 00:47:41,120 GUEST SPEAKER: Awesome. 1161 00:47:46,316 --> 00:47:46,788 OK. 1162 00:47:46,788 --> 00:47:50,080 You're up. 1163 00:47:50,080 --> 00:47:52,140 AUDIENCE: I will click. 1164 00:47:52,140 --> 00:47:53,583 AUDIENCE: Don't do it. 1165 00:47:53,583 --> 00:47:55,270 Oh, you're on. 1166 00:47:55,270 --> 00:47:55,626 AUDIENCE: You're done. 1167 00:47:55,626 --> 00:47:58,120 You lost already. 1168 00:47:58,120 --> 00:47:59,302 AUDIENCE: --go away. 1169 00:47:59,302 --> 00:48:01,325 It's kind of scary. 1170 00:48:01,325 --> 00:48:02,560 I could already see what they can do. 1171 00:48:02,560 --> 00:48:05,820 You're gonna play a game switch on me. 1172 00:48:05,820 --> 00:48:06,580 Afghan Freedom Fighters. 1173 00:48:06,580 --> 00:48:08,460 He's gonna be a terrorist later. 1174 00:48:08,460 --> 00:48:09,710 Migrant Workforce. 1175 00:48:12,870 --> 00:48:14,120 Migrant workforce. 1176 00:48:17,780 --> 00:48:19,538 Iraqi Oil. 1177 00:48:19,538 --> 00:48:20,810 Afghan Freedom Fighter. 1178 00:48:20,810 --> 00:48:23,945 AUDIENCE: I bet if you grab Iraqi Oil before Afghan 1179 00:48:23,945 --> 00:48:25,525 Freedom Fighter, it becomes terrorist. 1180 00:48:28,630 --> 00:48:29,620 Global Inequality. 1181 00:48:29,620 --> 00:48:30,470 Peace in Palestine. 1182 00:48:30,470 --> 00:48:32,220 Global Inequality. 1183 00:48:32,220 --> 00:48:34,311 Global Inequality. 1184 00:48:34,311 --> 00:48:35,340 Yes. 1185 00:48:35,340 --> 00:48:37,948 Global Inequality. 1186 00:48:37,948 --> 00:48:39,352 Yes. 1187 00:48:39,352 --> 00:48:40,290 GUEST SPEAKER: All right. 1188 00:48:40,290 --> 00:48:41,230 AUDIENCE: I'm doing well. 1189 00:48:41,230 --> 00:48:42,950 Ruthless Banker. 1190 00:48:42,950 --> 00:48:43,460 Loan shark. 1191 00:48:43,460 --> 00:48:46,250 Was Iraqi Oil here? 1192 00:48:46,250 --> 00:48:47,500 No. 1193 00:48:52,680 --> 00:48:54,590 Universal Health Care. 1194 00:48:54,590 --> 00:48:56,160 Man-made Global Warming. 1195 00:48:56,160 --> 00:48:57,442 Natural Global Warming. 1196 00:48:57,442 --> 00:48:59,366 Ha! 1197 00:48:59,366 --> 00:49:01,780 Hey, not cool. 1198 00:49:01,780 --> 00:49:03,290 Universal Health Care. 1199 00:49:03,290 --> 00:49:04,150 Universal Health Care. 1200 00:49:04,150 --> 00:49:05,491 Sweet. 1201 00:49:05,491 --> 00:49:06,385 Oh. 1202 00:49:06,385 --> 00:49:07,280 One over. 1203 00:49:07,280 --> 00:49:08,530 There. 1204 00:49:12,180 --> 00:49:13,430 Peace in Palestine. 1205 00:49:17,341 --> 00:49:18,460 There we go. 1206 00:49:18,460 --> 00:49:20,570 Wait. 1207 00:49:20,570 --> 00:49:21,650 Needy Banker. 1208 00:49:21,650 --> 00:49:24,000 Ruthless Banker. 1209 00:49:24,000 --> 00:49:25,860 Does it matter, the order you click them in? 1210 00:49:25,860 --> 00:49:26,720 Ruthless Banker. 1211 00:49:26,720 --> 00:49:28,200 What? 1212 00:49:28,200 --> 00:49:30,590 What did the other one [UNINTELLIGIBLE]? 1213 00:49:30,590 --> 00:49:32,382 There we go. 1214 00:49:32,382 --> 00:49:33,278 Nice. 1215 00:49:33,278 --> 00:49:34,570 So that means now-- 1216 00:49:38,394 --> 00:49:41,740 He's never a satisfied banker. 1217 00:49:41,740 --> 00:49:44,230 What the hell? 1218 00:49:44,230 --> 00:49:44,850 Oh, dear. 1219 00:49:44,850 --> 00:49:45,520 Did we? 1220 00:49:45,520 --> 00:49:47,420 Shoot. 1221 00:49:47,420 --> 00:49:50,730 Better move. 1222 00:49:50,730 --> 00:49:51,160 GUEST SPEAKER: This-- 1223 00:49:51,160 --> 00:49:52,156 [INAUDIBLE] 1224 00:49:52,156 --> 00:49:53,650 Natural Climate [INAUDIBLE]. 1225 00:50:02,116 --> 00:50:03,366 AUDIENCE: Oh, I get it. 1226 00:50:19,580 --> 00:50:20,550 That's fun. 1227 00:50:20,550 --> 00:50:21,940 Is that the entire game? 1228 00:50:21,940 --> 00:50:23,805 GUEST SPEAKER: Yes, that is the whole game. 1229 00:50:23,805 --> 00:50:26,180 Of course, you get different outcomes. 1230 00:50:26,180 --> 00:50:28,420 Yeah, that's the idea. 1231 00:50:28,420 --> 00:50:30,870 I think you guys have seen some of the Molleindustria's 1232 00:50:30,870 --> 00:50:32,138 [UNINTELLIGIBLE] 1233 00:50:32,138 --> 00:50:33,954 You guys saw Every Day the Same Dream? 1234 00:50:33,954 --> 00:50:34,792 AUDIENCE: I like that one. 1235 00:50:34,792 --> 00:50:36,470 GUEST SPEAKER: Which is interesting. 1236 00:50:36,470 --> 00:50:39,940 Yeah, that one's also one of my favorite games. 1237 00:50:39,940 --> 00:50:47,350 This is looking at another kind of sector of art, the 1238 00:50:47,350 --> 00:50:49,135 activist political statement sector of art is doing that 1239 00:50:49,135 --> 00:50:52,040 through games, and it's something-- this music too 1240 00:50:52,040 --> 00:50:53,280 [INAUDIBLE]-- 1241 00:50:53,280 --> 00:50:56,240 something that he does particularly 1242 00:50:56,240 --> 00:50:56,990 well with his games. 1243 00:50:56,990 --> 00:51:01,163 And I think this one's particularly interesting and 1244 00:51:01,163 --> 00:51:01,840 kind of funny. 1245 00:51:01,840 --> 00:51:10,050 I love the reworking of a really classic game mechanic. 1246 00:51:10,050 --> 00:51:12,460 The entire point of memory is your expectation that they 1247 00:51:12,460 --> 00:51:15,590 would be the same the second time you turn it over. 1248 00:51:15,590 --> 00:51:19,420 And when it changes on you, it really worsens that kind of 1249 00:51:19,420 --> 00:51:24,660 perspective, I suppose imbalance, that can exist when 1250 00:51:24,660 --> 00:51:28,190 you're not just turning over Toadstools and Bowsers, but 1251 00:51:28,190 --> 00:51:30,700 actual, interesting things. 1252 00:51:30,700 --> 00:51:36,180 I love the crying, sweating polar bear with a beach chair. 1253 00:51:36,180 --> 00:51:38,720 It actually cracks me up. 1254 00:51:38,720 --> 00:51:39,750 Humor is actually something that 1255 00:51:39,750 --> 00:51:40,510 shouldn't be ignored here. 1256 00:51:40,510 --> 00:51:43,260 If we remember, that was one of the central Fluxus things, 1257 00:51:43,260 --> 00:51:44,750 this idea of satire. 1258 00:51:44,750 --> 00:51:47,230 Humor is important. 1259 00:51:47,230 --> 00:51:51,972 So I think Paolo Pedercini's work is really awesome. 1260 00:51:51,972 --> 00:51:56,350 Again, for me, it's certainly arcing up. 1261 00:51:56,350 --> 00:51:57,820 This game's really cool. 1262 00:51:57,820 --> 00:51:59,020 Who's played Love? 1263 00:51:59,020 --> 00:52:00,345 A few people who's played Love? 1264 00:52:00,345 --> 00:52:01,015 All right, cool. 1265 00:52:01,015 --> 00:52:04,168 I'd love someone who has not played Love to play for a 1266 00:52:04,168 --> 00:52:04,794 little bit. 1267 00:52:04,794 --> 00:52:07,950 I don't know if we can play the whole game. 1268 00:52:07,950 --> 00:52:12,780 This is actually a game that I really don't like, but I like 1269 00:52:12,780 --> 00:52:15,170 the things that it does, if that makes any sense. 1270 00:52:15,170 --> 00:52:17,395 It bothers me for some reason. 1271 00:52:17,395 --> 00:52:19,200 And yet-- 1272 00:52:19,200 --> 00:52:20,350 it's such an articulate statement, this 1273 00:52:20,350 --> 00:52:23,860 game bothers me-- 1274 00:52:23,860 --> 00:52:28,674 but I think it's worth looking at, because he's doing a 1275 00:52:28,674 --> 00:52:31,530 particularly interesting thing, Alexander Ocias. 1276 00:52:31,530 --> 00:52:34,865 I suppose it's a soft C, Ocias. 1277 00:52:43,773 --> 00:52:46,268 I have the sound turned off. 1278 00:52:46,268 --> 00:52:47,765 I'm sorry, top right. 1279 00:52:47,765 --> 00:53:06,575 [GAME MUSIC] 1280 00:53:06,575 --> 00:53:09,212 AUDIENCE: If you say, yes, will he like not 1281 00:53:09,212 --> 00:53:10,462 teach you how to play? 1282 00:53:30,948 --> 00:53:32,198 AUDIENCE: Don't touch the buttons. 1283 00:53:39,346 --> 00:53:40,828 It's like [UNINTELLIGIBLE]. 1284 00:53:51,770 --> 00:53:53,020 GUEST SPEAKER: There's two paths. 1285 00:54:01,353 --> 00:54:02,850 AUDIENCE: Can you find them? 1286 00:54:02,850 --> 00:54:03,848 AUDIENCE: [UNINTELLIGIBLE]. 1287 00:54:03,848 --> 00:54:04,846 I'm not gonna listen-- 1288 00:54:04,846 --> 00:54:06,842 AUDIENCE: It says travel the lower paths. 1289 00:54:06,842 --> 00:54:08,339 AUDIENCE: Who's gonna be able to listen to all this? 1290 00:54:12,331 --> 00:54:13,828 AUDIENCE: What's appearing? 1291 00:54:23,309 --> 00:54:27,301 GUEST SPEAKER: Weird slowdown. 1292 00:54:27,301 --> 00:54:30,295 AUDIENCE: You [UNINTELLIGIBLE] disobey him. 1293 00:54:30,295 --> 00:54:31,293 AUDIENCE: What? 1294 00:54:31,293 --> 00:54:32,543 I can't hit the red blocks now? 1295 00:54:38,778 --> 00:54:40,028 AUDIENCE: Disgusting. 1296 00:54:45,227 --> 00:54:46,477 [INAUDIBLE] 1297 00:54:49,210 --> 00:54:50,410 AUDIENCE: Just give us not only art, it's all so 1298 00:54:50,410 --> 00:54:51,660 [UNINTELLIGIBLE]. 1299 00:54:55,270 --> 00:54:56,520 AUDIENCE: Patience. 1300 00:54:59,644 --> 00:55:01,600 Yay. 1301 00:55:01,600 --> 00:55:03,652 AUDIENCE: Those are red. 1302 00:55:03,652 --> 00:55:04,381 AUDIENCE: I know. 1303 00:55:04,381 --> 00:55:07,540 That means they can't touch him. 1304 00:55:07,540 --> 00:55:08,440 AUDIENCE: Don't do it. 1305 00:55:08,440 --> 00:55:09,210 Don't do it, dude. 1306 00:55:09,210 --> 00:55:10,022 AUDIENCE: Do it. 1307 00:55:10,022 --> 00:55:11,274 AUDIENCE: Do it. 1308 00:55:11,274 --> 00:55:12,540 AUDIENCE: Do it. 1309 00:55:12,540 --> 00:55:14,351 AUDIENCE: You're just gonna have to go back to the part 1310 00:55:14,351 --> 00:55:15,601 that was just hard. 1311 00:55:21,560 --> 00:55:23,160 AUDIENCE: You get red blocks when you disobey. 1312 00:55:26,240 --> 00:55:27,490 AUDIENCE: You still can't touch them. 1313 00:55:31,179 --> 00:55:33,167 AUDIENCE: So if you disobey, it hides from you what things 1314 00:55:33,167 --> 00:55:34,417 actually are. 1315 00:55:37,640 --> 00:55:41,616 Or if you obey, they're getting the victory. 1316 00:55:49,568 --> 00:55:50,562 AUDIENCE: It's so funny. 1317 00:55:50,562 --> 00:55:52,550 Just that little-- 1318 00:55:52,550 --> 00:55:53,800 AUDIENCE: What are the controls for this? 1319 00:56:06,963 --> 00:56:07,957 AUDIENCE: You should disobey. 1320 00:56:07,957 --> 00:56:09,245 AUDIENCE: What? 1321 00:56:09,245 --> 00:56:11,504 Can you no longer jump? 1322 00:56:11,504 --> 00:56:12,496 AUDIENCE: I'm just screwing around. 1323 00:56:12,496 --> 00:56:13,746 AUDIENCE: He's [UNINTELLIGIBLE]. 1324 00:56:25,888 --> 00:56:27,872 AUDIENCE: Oh, I thought that was bad. 1325 00:56:39,320 --> 00:56:40,920 GUEST SPEAKER: This game is well aggravatingly tuned, 1326 00:56:40,920 --> 00:56:43,872 because it's difficult enough. 1327 00:56:54,696 --> 00:56:57,156 AUDIENCE: Are you doing that intentionally? 1328 00:56:57,156 --> 00:56:58,406 AUDIENCE: I just like to. 1329 00:57:03,590 --> 00:57:05,470 GUEST SPEAKER: It's actually a pretty long game. 1330 00:57:05,470 --> 00:57:07,920 I encourage you guys to-- 1331 00:57:07,920 --> 00:57:09,720 it's pretty- it's all flash-based. 1332 00:57:09,720 --> 00:57:11,549 AUDIENCE: What's the message? 1333 00:57:11,549 --> 00:57:13,545 GUEST SPEAKER: It's a really good question. 1334 00:57:13,545 --> 00:57:15,042 Let me just jump in and go back to that place where-- 1335 00:57:15,042 --> 00:57:17,038 thank you for playing. 1336 00:57:17,038 --> 00:57:19,540 Thank you for playing. 1337 00:57:19,540 --> 00:57:20,350 AUDIENCE: Disgusting. 1338 00:57:20,350 --> 00:57:23,920 AUDIENCE: You are a changed person because of it. 1339 00:57:23,920 --> 00:57:26,150 So the question then becomes what's the point, which 1340 00:57:26,150 --> 00:57:28,060 already we're in a position now where we're asking 1341 00:57:28,060 --> 00:57:28,910 questions like that. 1342 00:57:28,910 --> 00:57:31,330 Which is, if you were playing Modern Warfare II, you might 1343 00:57:31,330 --> 00:57:33,350 say what's the point, and be like, to blow a lot 1344 00:57:33,350 --> 00:57:35,210 of stuff up, right? 1345 00:57:35,210 --> 00:57:38,850 This is the response he had in one of his interviews he gave 1346 00:57:38,850 --> 00:57:40,690 after his release and said, I wanted to get people to wake 1347 00:57:40,690 --> 00:57:42,830 up and think about the games they are playing. 1348 00:57:42,830 --> 00:57:44,680 Much of the industry appears to be pushing in the opposite 1349 00:57:44,680 --> 00:57:46,790 direction, as we'll have tutorials, holding your hand 1350 00:57:46,790 --> 00:57:49,650 from beginning to end in subtext, screens for pointless 1351 00:57:49,650 --> 00:57:50,540 exposition. 1352 00:57:50,540 --> 00:57:52,320 It is treating players like idiots. 1353 00:57:52,320 --> 00:57:53,480 It is absolutely infuriating. 1354 00:57:53,480 --> 00:57:55,960 When you think about it in terms of the tutorial, if this 1355 00:57:55,960 --> 00:57:57,066 is the tutorial for playing the 1356 00:57:57,066 --> 00:57:59,370 game, it's pretty obnoxious. 1357 00:57:59,370 --> 00:58:01,240 But it's not that much different than the kind of 1358 00:58:01,240 --> 00:58:03,600 tutorials we encounter in a lot of games that just 1359 00:58:03,600 --> 00:58:06,440 basically hold your hand and tell you how to do everything. 1360 00:58:06,440 --> 00:58:10,290 I think he's really confronting that. 1361 00:58:10,290 --> 00:58:12,140 I guess if I were to say the reasons that I don't like this 1362 00:58:12,140 --> 00:58:14,790 game, I think the control scheme is 1363 00:58:14,790 --> 00:58:17,040 actually, it's a weakness. 1364 00:58:17,040 --> 00:58:21,242 The game is so hard that, I mean, you saw you couldn't 1365 00:58:21,242 --> 00:58:22,475 even get to the things that he was trying to communicate. 1366 00:58:22,475 --> 00:58:24,610 It gets weirder, the further along you get, 1367 00:58:24,610 --> 00:58:25,530 I can promise you. 1368 00:58:25,530 --> 00:58:29,610 It's just you have to get really skilled at doing it. 1369 00:58:29,610 --> 00:58:34,480 There's kind of like a play barrier for entry on it. 1370 00:58:34,480 --> 00:58:40,856 It's also, for me, I think dare I say, it almost gets too 1371 00:58:40,856 --> 00:58:43,818 abstract for me at certain points. 1372 00:58:43,818 --> 00:58:46,220 Clearly he's trying to say something, but there's nothing 1373 00:58:46,220 --> 00:58:48,140 I can latch onto to understand what it is. 1374 00:58:48,140 --> 00:58:50,420 That's entirely his prerogative, but for me, I'm 1375 00:58:50,420 --> 00:58:52,290 just like, what? 1376 00:58:52,290 --> 00:58:55,760 I have no clue what this is about at all. 1377 00:58:55,760 --> 00:58:59,045 So that's a little tricky, not fully grasping. 1378 00:58:59,045 --> 00:59:00,905 Clearly I'm not-- 1379 00:59:00,905 --> 00:59:02,950 I'm partially, so it's like the perfect 1380 00:59:02,950 --> 00:59:05,820 Fluxus piece of art. 1381 00:59:05,820 --> 00:59:07,980 OK, so I've only got a couple more to talk about. 1382 00:59:07,980 --> 00:59:09,357 I've got about 15 minutes. 1383 00:59:09,357 --> 00:59:11,422 This, I think, is actually one of the most important games we 1384 00:59:11,422 --> 00:59:13,490 can talk about today, which is Cow Clicker. 1385 00:59:13,490 --> 00:59:14,320 Who's played Cow Clicker? 1386 00:59:14,320 --> 00:59:16,310 Yay. 1387 00:59:16,310 --> 00:59:20,260 This is by Ian Bogost-- that's the guy we saw earlier. 1388 00:59:20,260 --> 00:59:22,240 And he said, Cow Clicker is a Facebook game 1389 00:59:22,240 --> 00:59:23,900 about Facebook games. 1390 00:59:23,900 --> 00:59:26,470 It's partly a satire and partly a playable theory of 1391 00:59:26,470 --> 00:59:29,000 today's social games, and partly an earnest example of 1392 00:59:29,000 --> 00:59:30,350 that genre. 1393 00:59:30,350 --> 00:59:32,370 So this is kind of like a classic sort of 1394 00:59:32,370 --> 00:59:33,520 art thing to do. 1395 00:59:33,520 --> 00:59:36,310 You take something that you're going to satire, and you make 1396 00:59:36,310 --> 00:59:40,770 a version of that, that maybe does something differently, 1397 00:59:40,770 --> 00:59:43,190 but it's fundamentally what you are satiring. 1398 00:59:43,190 --> 00:59:46,620 It's like the Andy Kaufman comedic kind of style. 1399 00:59:46,620 --> 00:59:50,460 You just assume that kind of character or role. 1400 00:59:50,460 --> 00:59:57,150 It's something that I think is like joyfully subversive in 1401 00:59:57,150 --> 00:59:58,120 doing satire. 1402 00:59:58,120 --> 01:00:00,110 So hopefully I'm logged into Facebook so you can see. 1403 01:00:00,110 --> 01:00:01,587 I haven't clicked recently, so you guys can 1404 01:00:01,587 --> 01:00:03,610 witness one of my clicks. 1405 01:00:03,610 --> 01:00:04,860 [UNINTELLIGIBLE] 1406 01:00:07,047 --> 01:00:09,011 Facebook is down. 1407 01:00:09,011 --> 01:00:10,975 Facebook is canceled forever. 1408 01:00:10,975 --> 01:00:12,225 AUDIENCE: Yes. 1409 01:00:14,920 --> 01:00:18,770 [LAUGHTER] 1410 01:00:18,770 --> 01:00:20,400 It actually has no friends. 1411 01:00:20,400 --> 01:00:22,720 It's also possible that the wireless-- 1412 01:00:22,720 --> 01:00:25,560 the wireless in that corner is kind of bad. 1413 01:00:25,560 --> 01:00:26,810 GUEST SPEAKER: Should I switch to Google Guest? 1414 01:00:34,000 --> 01:00:36,610 I can actually, before we can see it, I can talk a little 1415 01:00:36,610 --> 01:00:38,740 bit about the sort of interesting controversy that 1416 01:00:38,740 --> 01:00:41,410 Cow Clicker is creating. 1417 01:00:41,410 --> 01:00:43,040 It's making money. 1418 01:00:48,050 --> 01:00:51,585 Let me try Google Guest. 1419 01:00:51,585 --> 01:00:53,070 I'm not connected. 1420 01:00:53,070 --> 01:00:55,050 How about now? 1421 01:00:55,050 --> 01:00:58,590 It seems to be working better. 1422 01:00:58,590 --> 01:00:59,840 AUDIENCE: You're still not-- 1423 01:01:03,030 --> 01:01:05,130 GUEST SPEAKER: The last part of his statement is about an 1424 01:01:05,130 --> 01:01:06,580 earnest effort at a game. 1425 01:01:06,580 --> 01:01:08,340 It is fundamentally a Facebook game. 1426 01:01:08,340 --> 01:01:14,170 You can see I've got 5 mooney and my next click is in a 1427 01:01:14,170 --> 01:01:15,920 minute and 40-- ah, man, I missed one of my clicks. 1428 01:01:15,920 --> 01:01:18,240 But maybe if we wait while I talk about it you can witness 1429 01:01:18,240 --> 01:01:20,170 one of my clicks. 1430 01:01:20,170 --> 01:01:22,490 Oh, wait, I actually have some clicks left. 1431 01:01:22,490 --> 01:01:24,120 I've got one this week. 1432 01:01:24,120 --> 01:01:27,010 AUDIENCE: That's in two hours? 1433 01:01:27,010 --> 01:01:28,030 GUEST SPEAKER: Yeah, it looks like that's when 1434 01:01:28,030 --> 01:01:29,630 I get my next one. 1435 01:01:29,630 --> 01:01:31,475 So basically you can click your cow. 1436 01:01:35,570 --> 01:01:40,220 Why can I not click my cow here. 1437 01:01:40,220 --> 01:01:42,260 But you can click your cow, and then you can-- oh, it's 1438 01:01:42,260 --> 01:01:43,510 because I'm on scroll? 1439 01:01:46,400 --> 01:01:48,380 Anyway, you can click your cow, and then you can use your 1440 01:01:48,380 --> 01:01:52,510 mooney to buy new cows that are fundamentally the same 1441 01:01:52,510 --> 01:01:56,945 thing as other cows, just with aesthetic differences. 1442 01:01:56,945 --> 01:01:59,960 So plain cow. 1443 01:01:59,960 --> 01:02:00,930 These are the cows I have. 1444 01:02:00,930 --> 01:02:02,350 I have a plain cow and a steel cow. 1445 01:02:02,350 --> 01:02:04,640 I haven't been playing a lot of Cow Clicker. 1446 01:02:04,640 --> 01:02:06,630 If I go to buy a cow, I can buy a new cow. 1447 01:02:09,270 --> 01:02:11,490 So you can see lots of different cows. 1448 01:02:11,490 --> 01:02:15,110 They cost you in game currency. 1449 01:02:15,110 --> 01:02:16,090 AUDIENCE: Paisley cow. 1450 01:02:16,090 --> 01:02:19,190 GUEST SPEAKER: Holy cow. 1451 01:02:19,190 --> 01:02:19,880 Oil cow [UNINTELLIGIBLE]. 1452 01:02:19,880 --> 01:02:22,180 It's got a BP logo. 1453 01:02:22,180 --> 01:02:23,626 Cute. 1454 01:02:23,626 --> 01:02:25,554 Like the [UNINTELLIGIBLE] cows. 1455 01:02:25,554 --> 01:02:27,000 That's pretty good. 1456 01:02:27,000 --> 01:02:28,350 So there's lots of different cows. 1457 01:02:28,350 --> 01:02:30,820 You can buy cows, you can give cows, you can invite a cow, 1458 01:02:30,820 --> 01:02:32,680 there's cow rankings. 1459 01:02:32,680 --> 01:02:34,450 AUDIENCE: You can buy a cow. 1460 01:02:34,450 --> 01:02:37,780 GUEST SPEAKER: So you can see, mooney's actually pretty 1461 01:02:37,780 --> 01:02:38,910 inflated at this point. 1462 01:02:38,910 --> 01:02:40,680 You can get 10 mooney for 50 cents, which is pretty good, 1463 01:02:40,680 --> 01:02:44,060 1,000 for $10, which is awesome. 1464 01:02:44,060 --> 01:02:45,840 And collect a lot of cows. 1465 01:02:45,840 --> 01:02:46,970 You can trade cows. 1466 01:02:46,970 --> 01:02:49,460 And you can go to your friends barns and see how 1467 01:02:49,460 --> 01:02:51,200 many cows they have. 1468 01:02:51,200 --> 01:02:55,070 And you can click on your cows when you make your appointment 1469 01:02:55,070 --> 01:02:56,850 to actually visit a cow. 1470 01:02:56,850 --> 01:03:01,360 So I think you can see how he's poking fun at things like 1471 01:03:01,360 --> 01:03:03,735 FarmVille things like Ravenwood Fair, which I'm 1472 01:03:03,735 --> 01:03:07,750 obsessed with now, actually, these kind of games where all 1473 01:03:07,750 --> 01:03:10,565 you're fundamentally doing is clicking and acquiring an 1474 01:03:10,565 --> 01:03:12,020 in-game currency that's you can then 1475 01:03:12,020 --> 01:03:13,510 use for in-game goods. 1476 01:03:13,510 --> 01:03:15,700 But then, of course, you reach this barrier where you don't 1477 01:03:15,700 --> 01:03:17,940 have enough in-game currency and you use moo currency. 1478 01:03:17,940 --> 01:03:20,820 Of course the interesting thing is there are 500,000 1479 01:03:20,820 --> 01:03:21,920 people playing this. 1480 01:03:21,920 --> 01:03:22,430 I don't know if it's that many. 1481 01:03:22,430 --> 01:03:23,822 It's a lot. 1482 01:03:23,822 --> 01:03:26,650 If you go to the Cow Clicker front page it'll tell us. 1483 01:03:26,650 --> 01:03:27,900 It just [UNINTELLIGIBLE]. 1484 01:03:30,361 --> 01:03:31,822 Where does it say how many players there are? 1485 01:03:31,822 --> 01:03:33,283 AUDIENCE: Ranking, probably in ranking. 1486 01:03:37,666 --> 01:03:41,080 He's milking the cow clicker. 1487 01:03:41,080 --> 01:03:42,950 You can see this person's-- 1488 01:03:42,950 --> 01:03:44,830 Monica's-- 1489 01:03:44,830 --> 01:03:46,112 AUDIENCE: Is the cow-- 1490 01:03:48,620 --> 01:03:49,334 AUDIENCE: Is that their all-time clicks 1491 01:03:49,334 --> 01:03:50,910 or this week's clicks? 1492 01:03:50,910 --> 01:03:52,770 AUDIENCE: Is there a-- 1493 01:03:52,770 --> 01:03:56,630 GUEST SPEAKER: Here we go, yeah, yeah. 1494 01:03:56,630 --> 01:03:57,840 12,000 monthly active users. 1495 01:03:57,840 --> 01:04:00,410 That's 500,000 in a business [UNINTELLIGIBLE]. 1496 01:04:00,410 --> 01:04:01,490 But that's a lot of people. 1497 01:04:01,490 --> 01:04:02,930 And he's making some interesting money on it. 1498 01:04:02,930 --> 01:04:04,680 And I think one of the things that was important that he did 1499 01:04:04,680 --> 01:04:06,290 is there's an active forum where people 1500 01:04:06,290 --> 01:04:07,495 can talk about it. 1501 01:04:07,495 --> 01:04:10,500 So it is a little bit weirdly controversial, 'cause he made 1502 01:04:10,500 --> 01:04:13,320 this game that is poking fun at Facebook games. 1503 01:04:13,320 --> 01:04:16,935 And yet it is a Facebook game and presumably making some 1504 01:04:16,935 --> 01:04:18,960 money, too. 1505 01:04:18,960 --> 01:04:21,115 But I think it's really good. 1506 01:04:21,115 --> 01:04:23,640 This is the kind of art that's also important, where it's 1507 01:04:23,640 --> 01:04:27,930 taking what we do and purposely looking at how is it 1508 01:04:27,930 --> 01:04:32,080 constructed and how it's set up and forcing us to kind of 1509 01:04:32,080 --> 01:04:34,619 be introspective about the things that we do and the way 1510 01:04:34,619 --> 01:04:35,910 that we engage. 1511 01:04:35,910 --> 01:04:38,340 So this is a kind of subversive game design that I 1512 01:04:38,340 --> 01:04:42,430 think along the lines of Paolo Pedercini's work and even 1513 01:04:42,430 --> 01:04:45,820 Gonzalo Frasca if forcing us to look at how we interact. 1514 01:04:45,820 --> 01:04:47,070 And Cow Clicker-- 1515 01:04:49,950 --> 01:04:50,620 So that's that one. 1516 01:04:50,620 --> 01:04:51,880 And I've got like 15 minutes. 1517 01:04:51,880 --> 01:04:55,340 Phillip asked me to talk a little bit about some work 1518 01:04:55,340 --> 01:04:58,450 that I'm doing in this space. 1519 01:04:58,450 --> 01:05:01,210 So I'm gonna talk to you about a game, it's 1520 01:05:01,210 --> 01:05:02,670 still a work in progress. 1521 01:05:02,670 --> 01:05:04,010 It's tentatively entitled Before and 1522 01:05:04,010 --> 01:05:07,950 Now, and it's by me. 1523 01:05:07,950 --> 01:05:14,521 And the idea from it is it's inspired by Fluxus boxes and 1524 01:05:14,521 --> 01:05:16,710 those Flux kits. 1525 01:05:16,710 --> 01:05:19,470 I'm really interested in physically tangible games. 1526 01:05:19,470 --> 01:05:22,370 I don't know why I'm all of a sudden obsessed 1527 01:05:22,370 --> 01:05:23,370 with holding something. 1528 01:05:23,370 --> 01:05:26,790 But I was at IndieCade and I heard again-- and this is the 1529 01:05:26,790 --> 01:05:31,385 question that drives me more nuts than the are video games 1530 01:05:31,385 --> 01:05:33,940 art question, although they're interestingly related. 1531 01:05:33,940 --> 01:05:37,160 But it's when will we have the Citizen Kane in video games? 1532 01:05:37,160 --> 01:05:38,390 It drives me absolutely nuts. 1533 01:05:38,390 --> 01:05:41,000 I think 80% of the time people who say that have never seen 1534 01:05:41,000 --> 01:05:42,830 Citizen Kane. 1535 01:05:42,830 --> 01:05:44,720 I don't really know that. 1536 01:05:44,720 --> 01:05:47,220 But I heard it for the umpteenth time at IndieCade. 1537 01:05:47,220 --> 01:05:50,015 I wanted to throw the television out of my hotel 1538 01:05:50,015 --> 01:05:51,120 room window. 1539 01:05:51,120 --> 01:05:52,350 And I was going nuts. 1540 01:05:52,350 --> 01:05:55,630 And I was like, all right, what is Citizen Kane about? 1541 01:05:55,630 --> 01:05:56,780 I don't want to spoil it. 1542 01:05:56,780 --> 01:05:59,160 Who's seen Citizen Kane in this room actually? 1543 01:05:59,160 --> 01:06:01,680 All right, good. 1544 01:06:01,680 --> 01:06:08,060 So I see Citizen Kane and it's about this very interesting 1545 01:06:08,060 --> 01:06:14,595 idea about presents and mementos and happiness in a 1546 01:06:14,595 --> 01:06:15,590 very kind of real way. 1547 01:06:15,590 --> 01:06:17,710 And the temporality of happiness, like 1548 01:06:17,710 --> 01:06:18,690 are you happy now? 1549 01:06:18,690 --> 01:06:19,630 Were you happy then? 1550 01:06:19,630 --> 01:06:20,640 Do you remember being happy? 1551 01:06:20,640 --> 01:06:22,820 When is happiness? 1552 01:06:22,820 --> 01:06:25,150 And so I was like, well, I'm going to make a Citizen Kane 1553 01:06:25,150 --> 01:06:28,810 in video games, but it's not gonna be known for being 1554 01:06:28,810 --> 01:06:32,690 epically innovative with camera movement. 1555 01:06:32,690 --> 01:06:34,240 It's going to be about the things I think 1556 01:06:34,240 --> 01:06:36,760 Citizen Kane are about. 1557 01:06:36,760 --> 01:06:42,590 So it's basically in this form, although I'm rethinking 1558 01:06:42,590 --> 01:06:44,290 what kind of box it's gonna be in. 1559 01:06:44,290 --> 01:06:45,760 But in this form it's a box. 1560 01:06:45,760 --> 01:06:49,760 And inside of it are various objects that start out as-- 1561 01:06:49,760 --> 01:06:51,900 the starting objects of the box are the things that have 1562 01:06:51,900 --> 01:06:53,900 personal significance to me. 1563 01:06:53,900 --> 01:06:55,980 One of the rules of the game, in fact, I think the most 1564 01:06:55,980 --> 01:06:58,305 important rule of the game is this one. 1565 01:06:58,305 --> 01:07:00,710 Rule number one, you may permanently exchange an object 1566 01:07:00,710 --> 01:07:03,580 of personal significance for any object of equal value. 1567 01:07:03,580 --> 01:07:05,240 So when you're playing this game, you can take something 1568 01:07:05,240 --> 01:07:07,770 that belongs to you, and you can exchange it for anything 1569 01:07:07,770 --> 01:07:09,370 in the box. 1570 01:07:09,370 --> 01:07:13,560 And of course, the interesting thing is these objects in the 1571 01:07:13,560 --> 01:07:17,350 box are of varying degrees of interactivity. 1572 01:07:17,350 --> 01:07:18,590 You can [INAUDIBLE] 1573 01:07:18,590 --> 01:07:23,050 so you can draw something on the Etch A Sketch. 1574 01:07:23,050 --> 01:07:25,050 The rules are kind of veiled at this moment now, where's 1575 01:07:25,050 --> 01:07:26,890 there's like a couple other rules that 1576 01:07:26,890 --> 01:07:27,900 are causing to reflect. 1577 01:07:27,900 --> 01:07:31,050 This is actually an extension of Yup on Word which is a 1578 01:07:31,050 --> 01:07:33,430 project we worked on in the summer, which was a game that 1579 01:07:33,430 --> 01:07:35,680 as you're playing it's a platform where you're typing, 1580 01:07:35,680 --> 01:07:38,440 and the game stops and asks you personal questions. 1581 01:07:38,440 --> 01:07:40,480 What I really liked about that is it was doing something that 1582 01:07:40,480 --> 01:07:45,982 I was referring to as a mechanic of reflection, where 1583 01:07:45,982 --> 01:07:50,440 the activity of playing is reflecting, is thinking, is 1584 01:07:50,440 --> 01:07:51,800 contemplating. 1585 01:07:51,800 --> 01:07:56,120 It's not interactive in a very active way as we think of it, 1586 01:07:56,120 --> 01:07:57,470 it's more reflective. 1587 01:07:57,470 --> 01:07:59,950 I liken it to the moments in chess where you're 1588 01:07:59,950 --> 01:08:00,640 planning your move. 1589 01:08:00,640 --> 01:08:02,530 There's not a lot of action in chess. 1590 01:08:02,530 --> 01:08:04,740 But it's a lot of contemplation in chess. 1591 01:08:04,740 --> 01:08:06,290 So if it's personal-- 1592 01:08:06,290 --> 01:08:07,820 what if that were personal. 1593 01:08:07,820 --> 01:08:11,590 And so what I didn't particularly care about with 1594 01:08:11,590 --> 01:08:16,420 Yup on Word it inspires you to reflect, but it doesn't do it 1595 01:08:16,420 --> 01:08:18,380 with tremendous grace. 1596 01:08:18,380 --> 01:08:19,540 It just asks you a question. 1597 01:08:19,540 --> 01:08:23,210 It just comes up out of the blue and and says, hey, when 1598 01:08:23,210 --> 01:08:24,830 was the last time you lied? 1599 01:08:24,830 --> 01:08:27,250 Sometimes you're surprised by that, and that's a good 1600 01:08:27,250 --> 01:08:30,319 effect, but it's also not subtle. 1601 01:08:30,319 --> 01:08:33,279 So I'm trying to explore how can we be subtle in causing 1602 01:08:33,279 --> 01:08:34,109 reflection. 1603 01:08:34,109 --> 01:08:35,180 So there are a few things here. 1604 01:08:35,180 --> 01:08:36,750 The value question is interesting. 1605 01:08:36,750 --> 01:08:39,890 How do you know what the value of the object is in the box? 1606 01:08:39,890 --> 01:08:42,210 Do you think of it as monetary value? 1607 01:08:42,210 --> 01:08:44,300 Do you think of it as value in terms of significance to the 1608 01:08:44,300 --> 01:08:45,950 person who put that in there? 1609 01:08:45,950 --> 01:08:48,649 Why is it significant to the person who put that in there? 1610 01:08:48,649 --> 01:08:49,790 What is this thing? 1611 01:08:49,790 --> 01:08:50,729 You can look at it and reflect. 1612 01:08:50,729 --> 01:08:54,090 And then when you leave a trace of yourself in this box, 1613 01:08:54,090 --> 01:08:57,100 the next person who comes and plays is going to see that. 1614 01:08:57,100 --> 01:08:58,979 And they're going to wonder what was that. 1615 01:08:58,979 --> 01:09:06,810 So I'm also kind of interested the organicness, the kind of 1616 01:09:06,810 --> 01:09:10,180 never-ending, interminable nature of a game that carries 1617 01:09:10,180 --> 01:09:14,240 the effect of the person who's played it on and on and on. 1618 01:09:14,240 --> 01:09:16,519 The next iteration of this that I want to do-- actually 1619 01:09:16,519 --> 01:09:18,819 this was an idea that Jason Bean gave me was to use an 1620 01:09:18,819 --> 01:09:20,200 apothecary chest. 1621 01:09:20,200 --> 01:09:22,279 Because one of the things that we play-tested it here with-- 1622 01:09:22,279 --> 01:09:24,523 I left it out for two weeks and people-- you 1623 01:09:24,523 --> 01:09:25,430 probably saw it. 1624 01:09:25,430 --> 01:09:25,939 It's right there. 1625 01:09:25,939 --> 01:09:27,074 People were engaging in-- 1626 01:09:27,074 --> 01:09:31,020 this is a photo with objects that people had left in. 1627 01:09:31,020 --> 01:09:33,326 So it was really fun for me after two weeks to go into 1628 01:09:33,326 --> 01:09:36,300 this box and be like, what is all this stuff. 1629 01:09:36,300 --> 01:09:37,210 What got left? 1630 01:09:37,210 --> 01:09:39,109 I was actually surprised the Etch A Sketch was left. 1631 01:09:39,109 --> 01:09:40,920 And then I was like, what is this stuff? 1632 01:09:40,920 --> 01:09:43,963 And to give you one really good example, one person at 1633 01:09:43,963 --> 01:09:49,970 the lab put in a Nintendo DS flash card, which was really a 1634 01:09:49,970 --> 01:09:51,660 wrapped DS flash card. 1635 01:09:51,660 --> 01:09:54,130 So now there's this kind of next level. 1636 01:09:54,130 --> 01:09:55,810 The game has changed with another level of 1637 01:09:55,810 --> 01:09:59,340 interactivity, where it's like, if I want to get at what 1638 01:09:59,340 --> 01:10:03,630 was the significance of this object to this person, I need 1639 01:10:03,630 --> 01:10:06,110 to get a DS and play this. 1640 01:10:06,110 --> 01:10:10,920 So I open up the-- it's got folders, and it's got a copy 1641 01:10:10,920 --> 01:10:12,130 of the game Lemming. 1642 01:10:12,130 --> 01:10:13,870 It's got some music in it. 1643 01:10:13,870 --> 01:10:15,610 So now it's kind of like you've 1644 01:10:15,610 --> 01:10:16,940 uncovered this next layer. 1645 01:10:16,940 --> 01:10:19,980 And it's like the interesting traces of the people who 1646 01:10:19,980 --> 01:10:24,990 played this game are now marked onto this box forever. 1647 01:10:24,990 --> 01:10:26,140 Marley even said to me-- 1648 01:10:26,140 --> 01:10:29,020 I was talking to her about her play after she had done it, 1649 01:10:29,020 --> 01:10:30,940 and I was like-- 1650 01:10:30,940 --> 01:10:33,660 She told me she wanted to take the instructions. 1651 01:10:33,660 --> 01:10:34,680 She wanted to take the rules. 1652 01:10:34,680 --> 01:10:36,800 That's one of the objects that she could take out of that. 1653 01:10:36,800 --> 01:10:38,610 And I told her I had thought about that actually when I was 1654 01:10:38,610 --> 01:10:40,474 designing it, that someone might be like, ha, I'm going 1655 01:10:40,474 --> 01:10:41,160 to take the rules. 1656 01:10:41,160 --> 01:10:43,660 And I was going to put in a rule that said you can 1657 01:10:43,660 --> 01:10:46,120 permanently exchange for an object that's not the rules, 1658 01:10:46,120 --> 01:10:47,640 so that the game could persist. 1659 01:10:47,640 --> 01:10:51,010 But I didn't want to artificially impose that. 1660 01:10:51,010 --> 01:10:53,050 If someone takes the rules because that's what they want, 1661 01:10:53,050 --> 01:10:54,780 and now the game has changed. 1662 01:10:54,780 --> 01:10:58,060 And maybe someone comes along later and modifies it. 1663 01:10:58,060 --> 01:11:00,000 And maybe they put something in that makes it a whole new, 1664 01:11:00,000 --> 01:11:00,650 different game. 1665 01:11:00,650 --> 01:11:03,410 And I really liked the idea that you could encounter this 1666 01:11:03,410 --> 01:11:07,110 game and that it's gonna be in this state of flux, I guess 1667 01:11:07,110 --> 01:11:09,430 you could say. 1668 01:11:09,430 --> 01:11:10,810 That's what I'm working on now. 1669 01:11:10,810 --> 01:11:13,095 And like I said, I think one of the things I didn't like is 1670 01:11:13,095 --> 01:11:15,600 that all of the objects are accessible all at once. 1671 01:11:15,600 --> 01:11:18,150 So if it's an apothecary chest with lots of drawers, this was 1672 01:11:18,150 --> 01:11:20,590 Jason Bean's idea, then you have to do a little exploring. 1673 01:11:20,590 --> 01:11:22,860 And maybe the rules are in one of those drawers. 1674 01:11:22,860 --> 01:11:24,280 And maybe you see the rules first. 1675 01:11:24,280 --> 01:11:25,730 Maybe you see the rules way after you've 1676 01:11:25,730 --> 01:11:26,350 looked at a lot of stuff. 1677 01:11:26,350 --> 01:11:28,280 And now you've seen all this stuff and played with it all 1678 01:11:28,280 --> 01:11:29,435 and you really like something. 1679 01:11:29,435 --> 01:11:32,520 And now it's like, ooh, what do I trade? 1680 01:11:32,520 --> 01:11:38,560 And yeah, I also am trying to find a way to give the box a 1681 01:11:38,560 --> 01:11:39,960 history as well. 1682 01:11:39,960 --> 01:11:43,670 I've contemplated some ideas of putting in some kind of 1683 01:11:43,670 --> 01:11:47,230 clues that you could then, if you felt, if you thought about 1684 01:11:47,230 --> 01:11:49,040 it or looked it up, you might be able to find a 1685 01:11:49,040 --> 01:11:50,745 story to this box. 1686 01:11:50,745 --> 01:11:52,710 Like if you did an Internet search you might come up on a 1687 01:11:52,710 --> 01:11:55,000 fake website-- well, it wouldn't be fake, it'd just be 1688 01:11:55,000 --> 01:11:58,800 a website-- but a website with a fake story that tells you a 1689 01:11:58,800 --> 01:12:00,893 little bit about this box, and then it gives you a few more 1690 01:12:00,893 --> 01:12:03,200 hooks into what the meaning of this game or the inspiration 1691 01:12:03,200 --> 01:12:05,740 for this game was. 1692 01:12:05,740 --> 01:12:07,850 And so this is one of my projects that I'm working on 1693 01:12:07,850 --> 01:12:10,430 right now, like I said, I'm interested in essentially. 1694 01:12:10,430 --> 01:12:13,460 But you can see where a lot of the other things that I was 1695 01:12:13,460 --> 01:12:17,700 talking about are inspiring this work. 1696 01:12:17,700 --> 01:12:22,415 And so we come back to that question of, are games art? 1697 01:12:22,415 --> 01:12:23,410 Of course we only have five minutes. 1698 01:12:23,410 --> 01:12:24,380 I don't know if you guys have administrative stuff 1699 01:12:24,380 --> 01:12:24,840 afterwards. 1700 01:12:24,840 --> 01:12:31,120 But this is, like I said, this is my viewpoint. 1701 01:12:31,120 --> 01:12:34,690 It's certainly shared with a lot of people. 1702 01:12:34,690 --> 01:12:39,093 But it's not guaranteed truth. 1703 01:12:39,093 --> 01:12:44,470 This is an opinion that I have just shared. 1704 01:12:44,470 --> 01:12:48,500 Any thoughts you guys have about this subject or these 1705 01:12:48,500 --> 01:12:51,222 ideas or these games? 1706 01:12:51,222 --> 01:12:54,680 Anything at all? 1707 01:12:54,680 --> 01:12:57,200 Yesterday's football game? 1708 01:12:57,200 --> 01:12:58,450 AUDIENCE: [UNINTELLIGIBLE] 1709 01:13:01,460 --> 01:13:02,110 GUEST SPEAKER: Well, cool. 1710 01:13:02,110 --> 01:13:03,230 I hope this was useful. 1711 01:13:03,230 --> 01:13:05,000 I hope it was helpful. 1712 01:13:05,000 --> 01:13:08,280 I think if, at the very least, it causes you to continue to 1713 01:13:08,280 --> 01:13:10,920 think about your own games that you're developing and how 1714 01:13:10,920 --> 01:13:14,660 meaning can be embedded in the play that you might not even 1715 01:13:14,660 --> 01:13:16,080 realize is there. 1716 01:13:16,080 --> 01:13:17,830 And also just to count the possibility space. 1717 01:13:17,830 --> 01:13:19,510 I really am excited by-- 1718 01:13:19,510 --> 01:13:23,710 I'm discouraged by the safe choices that a lot of 1719 01:13:23,710 --> 01:13:25,675 independent game developers make and excited when some 1720 01:13:25,675 --> 01:13:29,160 game developers really push on the edge. 1721 01:13:29,160 --> 01:13:30,960 I don't think we have a clear understanding of what the 1722 01:13:30,960 --> 01:13:34,190 rules are or what even constitutes a game. 1723 01:13:34,190 --> 01:13:37,010 Or what degree of interactivity is appropriate 1724 01:13:37,010 --> 01:13:38,800 for a quote/unquote game. 1725 01:13:38,800 --> 01:13:42,260 And I think some of these designers are really testing 1726 01:13:42,260 --> 01:13:45,072 the waters of the medium, you know, what can we 1727 01:13:45,072 --> 01:13:45,990 really do with this? 1728 01:13:45,990 --> 01:13:47,760 Where can we go? 1729 01:13:47,760 --> 01:13:49,975 How edgy and satirical and avant-garde can we be? 1730 01:13:53,090 --> 01:13:55,571 I think that's always good. 1731 01:13:55,571 --> 01:13:59,954 'Cause I'm a revolutionary, crazy person. 1732 01:13:59,954 --> 01:14:01,204 AUDIENCE: Crazy person. 1733 01:14:07,760 --> 01:14:11,280 AUDIENCE: Hope 7 played yet one more this year, which were 1734 01:14:11,280 --> 01:14:14,568 some of the games that Abe worked with the team on over 1735 01:14:14,568 --> 01:14:15,570 the summer. 1736 01:14:15,570 --> 01:14:19,492 Those are all on our GAMBIT website, just until 2010 and 1737 01:14:19,492 --> 01:14:21,690 as yet [UNINTELLIGIBLE] which we're 1738 01:14:21,690 --> 01:14:23,220 booked about this summer. 1739 01:14:23,220 --> 01:14:26,480 This sounds like tri-season will be digital work. 1740 01:14:26,480 --> 01:14:27,790 GUEST SPEAKER: Yeah, and please play them and give us 1741 01:14:27,790 --> 01:14:28,620 feedback, too, right? 1742 01:14:28,620 --> 01:14:29,784 Because that's the other thing. 1743 01:14:29,784 --> 01:14:32,860 These are not perfect articulations of game as the 1744 01:14:32,860 --> 01:14:34,654 pure art form. 1745 01:14:34,654 --> 01:14:37,039 We're constantly evolving and trying to improve, so any 1746 01:14:37,039 --> 01:14:39,435 feedback you can give us on this stuff is greatly 1747 01:14:39,435 --> 01:14:40,685 appreciated. 1748 01:14:42,420 --> 01:14:44,520 AUDIENCE: Do you still have that box, like somewhere? 1749 01:14:44,520 --> 01:14:45,100 GUEST SPEAKER: Yeah, yeah. 1750 01:14:45,100 --> 01:14:45,805 It's in my office. 1751 01:14:45,805 --> 01:14:46,250 Yeah, totally. 1752 01:14:46,250 --> 01:14:50,970 I have the box and the other part of it is when I do the 1753 01:14:50,970 --> 01:14:54,760 second version of it in the apothecary kind of chest-- 1754 01:14:54,760 --> 01:14:57,620 The one thing that's important to me is that each of the-- 1755 01:14:57,620 --> 01:15:00,470 For the prototype I just sort of threw some reasonably 1756 01:15:00,470 --> 01:15:02,210 meaningful objects in there. 1757 01:15:02,210 --> 01:15:05,020 But I want it to be populated with objects that are 1758 01:15:05,020 --> 01:15:08,350 personally significant to myself or symbolic to myself. 1759 01:15:08,350 --> 01:15:13,270 And populating that box at the outset with meaningful objects 1760 01:15:13,270 --> 01:15:19,050 I think is important, because once it's released into the 1761 01:15:19,050 --> 01:15:22,100 world for play that it's constantly changing. 1762 01:15:22,100 --> 01:15:27,460 So that first instantiation of the game is the one that's 1763 01:15:27,460 --> 01:15:30,210 about me in some sense, and about my experiences and then 1764 01:15:30,210 --> 01:15:32,520 it becomes the world's to just play. 1765 01:15:32,520 --> 01:15:36,210 AUDIENCE: So the way that your game kind of reminds me of is 1766 01:15:36,210 --> 01:15:38,740 I'm pretty sure I heard somewhere that some 1767 01:15:38,740 --> 01:15:41,950 person had a pen. 1768 01:15:41,950 --> 01:15:44,824 He started with a pen and kept trading-- 1769 01:15:44,824 --> 01:15:46,290 AUDIENCE: The red paper-- 1770 01:15:46,290 --> 01:15:46,980 AUDIENCE: No. 1771 01:15:46,980 --> 01:15:48,210 This is a different one. 1772 01:15:48,210 --> 01:15:49,500 Not the red paper clip for a car. 1773 01:15:49,500 --> 01:15:52,120 I think someone started with a pen or something and kept 1774 01:15:52,120 --> 01:15:52,450 trading it. 1775 01:15:52,450 --> 01:15:57,140 And over the course of a year or two, he'd got-- 1776 01:15:57,140 --> 01:16:00,314 From that initial pen, he was able to trade 1777 01:16:00,314 --> 01:16:01,640 for a house or something. 1778 01:16:01,640 --> 01:16:03,940 GUEST SPEAKER: It was [UNINTELLIGIBLE]. 1779 01:16:03,940 --> 01:16:06,980 And that was sort of an interesting-- 1780 01:16:06,980 --> 01:16:09,860 I think it was on eBay, too, or something like that. 1781 01:16:09,860 --> 01:16:12,460 And that's even using a pretty well-designed game system-- 1782 01:16:12,460 --> 01:16:14,560 'cause eBay is totally a game-- 1783 01:16:14,560 --> 01:16:17,850 and using a game system and subverting the system itself 1784 01:16:17,850 --> 01:16:19,970 to do something really interesting. 1785 01:16:19,970 --> 01:16:21,170 Yeah, that's a really great-- 1786 01:16:21,170 --> 01:16:23,190 it's a game inside of a game. 1787 01:16:23,190 --> 01:16:23,820 I love that. 1788 01:16:23,820 --> 01:16:26,320 It's kind of like the Cow Clicker, like making a game 1789 01:16:26,320 --> 01:16:29,612 inside of the game that subverts-- 1790 01:16:29,612 --> 01:16:31,430 AUDIENCE: Are you familiar with the concept of 1791 01:16:31,430 --> 01:16:33,500 geo-caching? 1792 01:16:33,500 --> 01:16:35,596 When I first saw-- 1793 01:16:35,596 --> 01:16:37,488 the game you were talking about using [UNINTELLIGIBLE] 1794 01:16:37,488 --> 01:16:38,907 reminded me of it. 1795 01:16:38,907 --> 01:16:40,700 So initially what it was, was when GPS's first came out, 1796 01:16:40,700 --> 01:16:42,310 people were like, oh, hey, this is really cool 1797 01:16:42,310 --> 01:16:42,460 technology. 1798 01:16:42,460 --> 01:16:44,190 We should think of something fun to do with it. 1799 01:16:44,190 --> 01:16:49,255 So what they did was, these people started hiding empty 1800 01:16:49,255 --> 01:16:53,770 tins of little trinkets and stuff on various hiking trails 1801 01:16:53,770 --> 01:16:55,080 or other locations. 1802 01:16:55,080 --> 01:16:56,840 And you would look up the coordinates on your GPS 1803 01:16:56,840 --> 01:16:59,622 finder, and you would find this box. 1804 01:16:59,622 --> 01:17:02,646 And then you'd trade trinkets, and you get them. 1805 01:17:02,646 --> 01:17:05,020 And you keep traveling to these other-- 1806 01:17:05,020 --> 01:17:06,330 GUEST SPEAKER: Yeah, and in that sense this whole 1807 01:17:06,330 --> 01:17:09,930 worldwide game becomes-- 1808 01:17:09,930 --> 01:17:12,690 There's some shared ideas with some location-based games that 1809 01:17:12,690 --> 01:17:17,110 do some really interesting things with that, whether it's 1810 01:17:17,110 --> 01:17:19,885 alternate reality, but not even with the narrative. 1811 01:17:19,885 --> 01:17:23,867 There was one I was reading about that was, come out and 1812 01:17:23,867 --> 01:17:26,850 play, I think, in New York City at one point. 1813 01:17:26,850 --> 01:17:29,280 It was Cruel to be Kind, it was called. 1814 01:17:29,280 --> 01:17:33,526 It was a game where you don't know who's playing, you don't 1815 01:17:33,526 --> 01:17:36,900 know who's on what team, but you get missions and you get a 1816 01:17:36,900 --> 01:17:40,630 weapon that's a complement, like to kill someone who's on 1817 01:17:40,630 --> 01:17:42,660 the other team, mistake them for a celebrity, or 1818 01:17:42,660 --> 01:17:44,110 something like that. 1819 01:17:44,110 --> 01:17:46,740 So you're using these random acts of kindness-- you know, 1820 01:17:46,740 --> 01:17:48,140 helping somebody across the street-- 1821 01:17:48,140 --> 01:17:51,672 and you don't know, it's in New York City, so you don't 1822 01:17:51,672 --> 01:17:52,580 know if someone's playing the game. 1823 01:17:52,580 --> 01:17:54,890 So now all of a sudden you're wandering around doing really 1824 01:17:54,890 --> 01:17:58,140 nice things for people on the chance, on a hunch that you 1825 01:17:58,140 --> 01:18:00,310 have that maybe they're playing the game. 1826 01:18:00,310 --> 01:18:01,830 And maybe they're not, so you've just helped somebody 1827 01:18:01,830 --> 01:18:03,777 across the street, which is totally nice. 1828 01:18:03,777 --> 01:18:07,156 And it comes to this massive conclusion where you just have 1829 01:18:07,156 --> 01:18:10,300 these two giant teams who meet up in a location to "nice" 1830 01:18:10,300 --> 01:18:13,520 each other to death, basically. 1831 01:18:13,520 --> 01:18:16,920 There's a lot of really, really interesting stuff, 1832 01:18:16,920 --> 01:18:20,370 especially in the location-based, around. 1833 01:18:20,370 --> 01:18:21,780 Big games are really cool. 1834 01:18:21,780 --> 01:18:23,230 There's a lot of people doing really neat 1835 01:18:23,230 --> 01:18:25,550 stuff with big games. 1836 01:18:25,550 --> 01:18:28,000 AUDIENCE: I think in particular with the box and 1837 01:18:28,000 --> 01:18:31,877 the geo-caching idea, and talking about the 1838 01:18:31,877 --> 01:18:35,740 paperclip-for-a-house thing, it's really interesting how 1839 01:18:35,740 --> 01:18:37,710 people value things. 1840 01:18:37,710 --> 01:18:40,380 In particular, you have this very vague rule, and it just 1841 01:18:40,380 --> 01:18:42,690 says something of equal value. 1842 01:18:42,690 --> 01:18:43,940 And what does it actually mean? 1843 01:18:46,910 --> 01:18:50,230 Like what someone is willing to trade for something else. 1844 01:18:50,230 --> 01:18:51,720 GUEST SPEAKER: Yeah, those are the kind of implicit rules 1845 01:18:51,720 --> 01:18:53,715 like you see in Sixteen Tons, where it's like, what happens 1846 01:18:53,715 --> 01:18:56,210 with the money? 1847 01:18:56,210 --> 01:18:57,800 Jason Bean really pointed it out, 'cause he was thinking 1848 01:18:57,800 --> 01:18:59,400 about value when he was doing the trading. 1849 01:18:59,400 --> 01:19:01,530 And it's such a good word, because value is such a 1850 01:19:01,530 --> 01:19:03,110 different thing to different people. 1851 01:19:03,110 --> 01:19:08,190 Someone might see the flash card for the DS, which has a 1852 01:19:08,190 --> 01:19:12,330 very clear, higher monetary value than an Etch A Sketch. 1853 01:19:12,330 --> 01:19:14,500 And yet, maybe you played with an Etch A Sketch when you were 1854 01:19:14,500 --> 01:19:17,080 a kid, and all of a sudden it floods back these memories 1855 01:19:17,080 --> 01:19:19,110 that you have. 1856 01:19:19,110 --> 01:19:21,670 There's also a component to it that I didn't really talk 1857 01:19:21,670 --> 01:19:23,815 about, which is the sacrificing of an object. 1858 01:19:23,815 --> 01:19:30,080 And I think, too, that we tend to be beholden to our material 1859 01:19:30,080 --> 01:19:32,400 objects too much. 1860 01:19:32,400 --> 01:19:36,225 In giving it up, in sacrificing it to this game so 1861 01:19:36,225 --> 01:19:37,580 that you don't have it anymore, if it's something of 1862 01:19:37,580 --> 01:19:40,650 personal significance, you're letting go and being able to 1863 01:19:40,650 --> 01:19:42,040 say, OK, the memory is one thing. 1864 01:19:42,040 --> 01:19:43,170 I don't need to-- 1865 01:19:43,170 --> 01:19:46,355 And that's how it relates a bit back to Citizen Kane, 1866 01:19:46,355 --> 01:19:49,265 which is a movie you should see, because it is good. 1867 01:19:49,265 --> 01:19:54,115 It's everything they said it is, depending on who they are. 1868 01:19:58,490 --> 01:19:58,960 Cool. 1869 01:19:58,960 --> 01:20:00,210 Thanks, guys.