1 00:00:00,090 --> 00:00:02,490 The following content is provided under a Creative 2 00:00:02,490 --> 00:00:04,030 Commons license. 3 00:00:04,030 --> 00:00:06,330 Your support will help MIT OpenCourseWare 4 00:00:06,330 --> 00:00:10,720 continue to offer high-quality, educational resources for free. 5 00:00:10,720 --> 00:00:13,320 To make a donation or view additional materials 6 00:00:13,320 --> 00:00:17,280 from hundreds of MIT courses, visit MIT OpenCourseWare 7 00:00:17,280 --> 00:00:18,450 at ocw.mit.edu. 8 00:00:21,128 --> 00:00:23,860 PROFESSOR: OK, So let's get started. 9 00:00:23,860 --> 00:00:26,680 Today we have got the pleasure of two local game builders. 10 00:00:26,680 --> 00:00:30,040 So they're here to talk to us about some of their work. 11 00:00:30,040 --> 00:00:33,989 We've got Glenn, and I don't have your last name 12 00:00:33,989 --> 00:00:35,030 in front of me right now. 13 00:00:35,030 --> 00:00:35,530 Given. 14 00:00:35,530 --> 00:00:36,250 Glenn Given. 15 00:00:36,250 --> 00:00:38,336 PROFESSOR: Glenn Given from Games by Play Date. 16 00:00:38,336 --> 00:00:40,775 And you're located in New Hampshire? 17 00:00:40,775 --> 00:00:41,640 GLENN GIVEN: Yes. 18 00:00:41,640 --> 00:00:43,340 Well, 2/3 of us are. 19 00:00:43,340 --> 00:00:46,920 It's like a three-person studio. 20 00:00:46,920 --> 00:00:50,732 Two of us in Andrew and one of us who's in [INAUDIBLE]. 21 00:00:50,732 --> 00:00:51,440 PROFESSOR: Great. 22 00:00:51,440 --> 00:00:53,247 And then you do board games and card games? 23 00:00:53,247 --> 00:00:54,580 GLENN GIVEN: Yes, a lot of them. 24 00:00:54,580 --> 00:00:55,780 PROFESSOR: And then Mack. 25 00:00:55,780 --> 00:00:57,120 How do you spell your last name? 26 00:00:57,120 --> 00:00:58,661 MACKENZIE CAMERON: Mackenzie Cameron. 27 00:00:58,661 --> 00:01:01,830 PROFESSOR: And he is one of the co-organizers from the Game 28 00:01:01,830 --> 00:01:04,350 Makers Guild, a local meet up, meets 29 00:01:04,350 --> 00:01:08,810 up at various places around the Cambridge area 30 00:01:08,810 --> 00:01:12,350 for people who are interested in developing board games and card 31 00:01:12,350 --> 00:01:14,432 games and meet with each other and learn more 32 00:01:14,432 --> 00:01:15,390 about how to make them. 33 00:01:15,390 --> 00:01:20,044 So each here, we're going to go just Glenn then Mack. 34 00:01:20,044 --> 00:01:23,350 Talk a little bit about what you do, about the kind of work 35 00:01:23,350 --> 00:01:24,898 you do, and then afterwards, we're 36 00:01:24,898 --> 00:01:26,200 going to open up for questions. 37 00:01:26,200 --> 00:01:27,810 GLENN GIVEN: Sure. 38 00:01:27,810 --> 00:01:30,739 So make games. 39 00:01:30,739 --> 00:01:31,530 I make board games. 40 00:01:31,530 --> 00:01:33,276 I make card games. 41 00:01:33,276 --> 00:01:36,480 And I try and never stop doing them. 42 00:01:36,480 --> 00:01:39,990 I don't have a particular-- 43 00:01:39,990 --> 00:01:45,660 anything that I can play that I can make happen, I'll do it. 44 00:01:45,660 --> 00:01:48,480 We do Targi games. 45 00:01:48,480 --> 00:01:53,100 So I just got 2,500 copies of my first party game delivered 46 00:01:53,100 --> 00:01:55,920 to my house three hours ago, which is interesting, 47 00:01:55,920 --> 00:01:59,040 moving those myself and then getting here. 48 00:01:59,040 --> 00:02:04,020 But I also am developing a gigantic, stupid board 49 00:02:04,020 --> 00:02:06,750 game that's just called a Big Dumb Wargame, which 50 00:02:06,750 --> 00:02:09,870 is like these guys play Axis & Allies or any of those old. 51 00:02:09,870 --> 00:02:13,380 So I used to play that when I was in high school 52 00:02:13,380 --> 00:02:16,730 because I liked being lonely and then 53 00:02:16,730 --> 00:02:19,230 I decided I wanted to make a version of that that's actually 54 00:02:19,230 --> 00:02:19,860 fun. 55 00:02:19,860 --> 00:02:22,650 We're also working on a game called 56 00:02:22,650 --> 00:02:25,610 Pack the Pack, which is-- 57 00:02:25,610 --> 00:02:27,197 you guys know Cards Against Humanity? 58 00:02:27,197 --> 00:02:28,780 So they're running this contest called 59 00:02:28,780 --> 00:02:31,520 the Cards Against Humanity Tabletop Deathmatch, 60 00:02:31,520 --> 00:02:35,040 and they got indie developers from all over the country 61 00:02:35,040 --> 00:02:35,980 to submit stuff. 62 00:02:35,980 --> 00:02:39,840 And so one of our games is in that. 63 00:02:39,840 --> 00:02:42,960 It's like if you've ever played Old Diablo, 64 00:02:42,960 --> 00:02:44,460 remember when you would collect loot 65 00:02:44,460 --> 00:02:45,710 and you would have to fit it in your bag 66 00:02:45,710 --> 00:02:47,010 and it was all weird shaped? 67 00:02:47,010 --> 00:02:50,010 So it's been inventory Tetris games 68 00:02:50,010 --> 00:02:54,370 where everyone is pulling tiles, which are effectively dominoes 69 00:02:54,370 --> 00:02:57,120 with different images on them, and then you're 70 00:02:57,120 --> 00:02:59,250 aligning them to make gems. 71 00:02:59,250 --> 00:03:03,680 So it's like an analog version of Super Puzzle Fighter. 72 00:03:03,680 --> 00:03:05,400 But the moral to the point, everything 73 00:03:05,400 --> 00:03:06,780 I've just described to you doesn't tell you 74 00:03:06,780 --> 00:03:09,240 anything about the games except in reference to other games 75 00:03:09,240 --> 00:03:10,910 that I talked about. 76 00:03:10,910 --> 00:03:14,740 But that's how I do design. 77 00:03:14,740 --> 00:03:16,650 I look at games that I like and then 78 00:03:16,650 --> 00:03:20,240 I dissect them and take the parts that I want 79 00:03:20,240 --> 00:03:22,470 and then put them back together with other parts 80 00:03:22,470 --> 00:03:24,690 and see if there's a theme that goes with it. 81 00:03:24,690 --> 00:03:25,470 But yeah. 82 00:03:25,470 --> 00:03:31,350 Also, I did printing and publishing for 10 years, 83 00:03:31,350 --> 00:03:33,970 and then that drove me madder than normal. 84 00:03:33,970 --> 00:03:37,050 So I left that to do this. 85 00:03:37,050 --> 00:03:42,040 So me and my team very rapidly design games. 86 00:03:42,040 --> 00:03:48,690 We bring a design all the way to a publishing level 87 00:03:48,690 --> 00:03:53,700 in about a month, from conception to execution. 88 00:03:53,700 --> 00:03:58,380 They're not big, huge endeavors, but it's 89 00:03:58,380 --> 00:04:01,392 good to stay really busy with it and exercise with it 90 00:04:01,392 --> 00:04:03,600 and realize that sometimes a project is going to fail 91 00:04:03,600 --> 00:04:05,558 and you can back away from it and go, ah, well, 92 00:04:05,558 --> 00:04:06,770 that month is kind of a bust. 93 00:04:06,770 --> 00:04:09,300 And so we're actually also exploring 94 00:04:09,300 --> 00:04:10,770 different kind of business models 95 00:04:10,770 --> 00:04:14,620 for board games because this isn't really a huge leap. 96 00:04:14,620 --> 00:04:18,029 There's very few people who are going to be very wealthy on it 97 00:04:18,029 --> 00:04:21,132 or even do good on it. 98 00:04:21,132 --> 00:04:22,840 MACKENZIE CAMERON: Scare them off, right? 99 00:04:22,840 --> 00:04:24,048 GLENN GIVEN: Yeah, seriously. 100 00:04:24,048 --> 00:04:26,700 So maybe you make the next Settlers of Catan 101 00:04:26,700 --> 00:04:31,280 and then you're selling a steady 5,000 copies a year, 102 00:04:31,280 --> 00:04:34,650 which is really not that much when you think of it. 103 00:04:34,650 --> 00:04:37,290 Depending on the way your business is set up, 104 00:04:37,290 --> 00:04:39,210 you may see a fraction of that money. 105 00:04:39,210 --> 00:04:43,320 So that's why a lot of very, very good designers, 106 00:04:43,320 --> 00:04:46,500 like I'm a big fan of Bruno Faidutti who just came out 107 00:04:46,500 --> 00:04:48,910 with Mascarade. 108 00:04:48,910 --> 00:04:50,309 Mascarade is a really cool game. 109 00:04:50,309 --> 00:04:51,600 MACKENZIE CAMERON: [INAUDIBLE]? 110 00:04:51,600 --> 00:04:52,950 GLENN GIVEN: Yeah. 111 00:04:52,950 --> 00:04:56,940 So he'll put out a couple of games, 112 00:04:56,940 --> 00:05:00,750 and then he just gets a cut from each of them. 113 00:05:00,750 --> 00:05:06,270 But using short-run printing, we directly 114 00:05:06,270 --> 00:05:13,800 manufacture our monthly games, and then people subscribe to us 115 00:05:13,800 --> 00:05:15,690 through stuff like Patreon. 116 00:05:15,690 --> 00:05:19,979 And then we send them physical copies of the games 117 00:05:19,979 --> 00:05:20,520 that we make. 118 00:05:20,520 --> 00:05:24,090 And I brought nine different games 119 00:05:24,090 --> 00:05:26,827 that I've made in the past six months. 120 00:05:26,827 --> 00:05:28,410 MACKENZIE CAMERON: I didn't bring any. 121 00:05:28,410 --> 00:05:29,160 GLENN GIVEN: Yeah. 122 00:05:29,160 --> 00:05:30,840 Well, you can borrow some of mine. 123 00:05:30,840 --> 00:05:34,020 And then you can borrow the bad ones. 124 00:05:34,020 --> 00:05:36,450 And then also we go to Kickstarter 125 00:05:36,450 --> 00:05:40,560 for larger games, ones where we want to make 126 00:05:40,560 --> 00:05:43,670 multi-thousand copies of it. 127 00:05:43,670 --> 00:05:47,970 But yeah, I will never stop talking. 128 00:05:47,970 --> 00:05:48,628 OK, cool. 129 00:05:54,030 --> 00:05:55,280 Yeah. 130 00:05:55,280 --> 00:05:56,860 Board games are really awesome. 131 00:05:56,860 --> 00:05:58,620 I think that you guys know that. 132 00:05:58,620 --> 00:06:00,750 And they're more awesome now than they used to be, 133 00:06:00,750 --> 00:06:03,690 not just because they're more complicated because complexity 134 00:06:03,690 --> 00:06:05,497 isn't what makes a game really good. 135 00:06:05,497 --> 00:06:07,080 In fact, usually a really complex game 136 00:06:07,080 --> 00:06:09,000 is really bad because it's a sign 137 00:06:09,000 --> 00:06:11,430 that there was a huge problem and that the designer said, 138 00:06:11,430 --> 00:06:12,554 oh, I know how to fix this. 139 00:06:12,554 --> 00:06:15,310 I'll add another page to the rule book. 140 00:06:15,310 --> 00:06:18,070 That's poor planning. 141 00:06:18,070 --> 00:06:21,660 But games are better now because people want them more. 142 00:06:21,660 --> 00:06:24,480 I mean, what I think the reason people want them more 143 00:06:24,480 --> 00:06:33,130 is because we crave physical, analog time with other people 144 00:06:33,130 --> 00:06:39,750 now more so than when I was a kid because we're 145 00:06:39,750 --> 00:06:42,000 super interconnected with smartphones and all 146 00:06:42,000 --> 00:06:45,270 that stuff that we can't live our life without. 147 00:06:45,270 --> 00:06:48,090 I'm twittering all the way down here doing 80 on the highway 148 00:06:48,090 --> 00:06:50,280 because I'm a bad person. 149 00:06:50,280 --> 00:06:53,790 But the ability to say, OK, I've been 150 00:06:53,790 --> 00:06:55,500 staring at these screens all day long, 151 00:06:55,500 --> 00:06:58,260 and my entire life is scheduled. 152 00:06:58,260 --> 00:07:00,180 I need to schedule my relaxing time 153 00:07:00,180 --> 00:07:02,850 and it needs to not be me staring at the screen. 154 00:07:02,850 --> 00:07:07,290 So I think there's something in the zeitgeist 155 00:07:07,290 --> 00:07:09,330 of that personal feeling that people 156 00:07:09,330 --> 00:07:12,720 had that has caused a resurgence in face-to-face gaming. 157 00:07:14,510 --> 00:07:15,510 MACKENZIE CAMERON: Yeah. 158 00:07:15,510 --> 00:07:17,100 Because Even like apps and stuff, 159 00:07:17,100 --> 00:07:18,930 I will straight up just hands down beat 160 00:07:18,930 --> 00:07:20,915 anyone that plays the Race for the Galaxy app 161 00:07:20,915 --> 00:07:23,690 than playing them face to face because the skills that you 162 00:07:23,690 --> 00:07:24,940 need are completely different. 163 00:07:24,940 --> 00:07:26,930 Just like this board games do really 164 00:07:26,930 --> 00:07:28,830 well that you don't find in other mediums. 165 00:07:28,830 --> 00:07:30,840 GLENN GIVEN: So I play a ton of Netrunner, 166 00:07:30,840 --> 00:07:32,132 which is a really awesome game. 167 00:07:32,132 --> 00:07:34,215 MACKENZIE CAMERON: The rule book on that is awful. 168 00:07:34,215 --> 00:07:35,960 GLENN GIVEN: The rulebook is the worst. 169 00:07:35,960 --> 00:07:38,226 But some people have hacked together. 170 00:07:38,226 --> 00:07:39,600 There's a program called Octagon, 171 00:07:39,600 --> 00:07:42,210 which is like a virtual tabletop where you can basically 172 00:07:42,210 --> 00:07:44,664 simulate any game that's been made. 173 00:07:44,664 --> 00:07:46,830 I mean, there's a whole interesting other discussion 174 00:07:46,830 --> 00:07:52,980 of how do you do internet piracy of board games. 175 00:07:52,980 --> 00:07:54,880 That could be a class. 176 00:07:54,880 --> 00:07:56,220 It's a good idea for a class. 177 00:07:56,220 --> 00:07:57,690 Anyway, so Octagon is really neat 178 00:07:57,690 --> 00:08:00,720 except one of the things about Netrunner is that-- 179 00:08:00,720 --> 00:08:03,490 if you played it, raise your hands so I know-- 180 00:08:03,490 --> 00:08:05,340 AUDIENCE: Does the original version count? 181 00:08:05,340 --> 00:08:05,620 GLENN GIVEN: Yes. 182 00:08:05,620 --> 00:08:06,121 Sure. 183 00:08:06,121 --> 00:08:07,578 Although the new version is better. 184 00:08:07,578 --> 00:08:09,630 You should totally get back into the new version. 185 00:08:09,630 --> 00:08:11,520 It's amazing. 186 00:08:11,520 --> 00:08:16,500 So it's by the same guy who designed Magic, the Gathering. 187 00:08:16,500 --> 00:08:19,860 It has some sort of similarities to that. 188 00:08:19,860 --> 00:08:22,860 But what makes it really neat is that it's an asymmetrical game. 189 00:08:22,860 --> 00:08:26,070 Like I'll be an evil corporation, for instance, 190 00:08:26,070 --> 00:08:29,430 and you might be a scrappy computer hacker. 191 00:08:29,430 --> 00:08:33,539 And you're trying to infiltrate my servers, which 192 00:08:33,539 --> 00:08:36,809 are represented by my deck of cards, my hand of cards, 193 00:08:36,809 --> 00:08:39,360 my discard pile of cards, or like other things that I 194 00:08:39,360 --> 00:08:42,929 have installed and find what my nefarious plans are. 195 00:08:42,929 --> 00:08:44,760 And you get all these crazy programs that 196 00:08:44,760 --> 00:08:48,126 allow you to circumnavigate my defenses, 197 00:08:48,126 --> 00:08:49,500 and I get all these programs that 198 00:08:49,500 --> 00:08:51,480 allow me to put down defenses, or maybe I 199 00:08:51,480 --> 00:08:53,250 get a card that says, I orbitally 200 00:08:53,250 --> 00:08:57,690 bombard your apartment building, which is always fun. 201 00:08:57,690 --> 00:09:00,870 But a huge part of that game, although you can play it 202 00:09:00,870 --> 00:09:04,960 on Octagon, a tremendous part of that game 203 00:09:04,960 --> 00:09:09,800 is it's bluffing because what makes the game really rich 204 00:09:09,800 --> 00:09:13,470 is not that it's asymmetrical, but there's a huge component 205 00:09:13,470 --> 00:09:14,500 of hidden information. 206 00:09:14,500 --> 00:09:16,500 As a corporation in that game, everything 207 00:09:16,500 --> 00:09:18,900 I do I do by placing my cards face down. 208 00:09:18,900 --> 00:09:20,790 So I know what they are, but you don't. 209 00:09:20,790 --> 00:09:24,707 And you have to start to count cards a little bit 210 00:09:24,707 --> 00:09:26,790 or start to make educated guesses about what you-- 211 00:09:30,430 --> 00:09:34,320 can I attack his hand even though I have 212 00:09:34,320 --> 00:09:37,380 no offensive capabilities here? 213 00:09:37,380 --> 00:09:39,870 Is that going to mean that he explodes 214 00:09:39,870 --> 00:09:43,890 like a thing in my brain and my computer hacker dies? 215 00:09:43,890 --> 00:09:45,430 There's all that. 216 00:09:45,430 --> 00:09:48,170 So a lot of that game is about managing 217 00:09:48,170 --> 00:09:54,390 what's called pilt, which is something you get in poker. 218 00:09:54,390 --> 00:09:57,550 If you play poker, when you start losing poker, 219 00:09:57,550 --> 00:10:00,850 if you forget that poker is kind of a long game 220 00:10:00,850 --> 00:10:02,850 and that you should really be playing it 221 00:10:02,850 --> 00:10:05,100 with an eye on what the rest of your weak looks 222 00:10:05,100 --> 00:10:06,930 like as opposed to this hand, you'll 223 00:10:06,930 --> 00:10:09,720 start to play worse because you're doing worse 224 00:10:09,720 --> 00:10:12,300 and you'll just pilt. 225 00:10:12,300 --> 00:10:16,770 So it's kind of like a tell, but it's more than just saying 226 00:10:16,770 --> 00:10:18,840 I've got a bad card in my hand. 227 00:10:18,840 --> 00:10:23,060 It's going, I'm losing so I need to play harder, which 228 00:10:23,060 --> 00:10:25,470 would be great if it was handball 229 00:10:25,470 --> 00:10:29,460 or something, but in a card, that doesn't work 230 00:10:29,460 --> 00:10:31,710 because really what you want to do 231 00:10:31,710 --> 00:10:35,730 is establish regularity in what you're doing, 232 00:10:35,730 --> 00:10:38,615 especially in a game that's that mathematically perfect. 233 00:10:38,615 --> 00:10:39,900 MACKENZIE CAMERON: I think I'm going to go ahead and introduce 234 00:10:39,900 --> 00:10:40,399 myself. 235 00:10:40,399 --> 00:10:42,054 GLENN GIVEN: Please do. 236 00:10:42,054 --> 00:10:43,955 I don't even know where I am. 237 00:10:43,955 --> 00:10:46,080 MACKENZIE CAMERON: So my name is Mackenzie Cameron. 238 00:10:46,080 --> 00:10:50,220 I'm an event coordinator for the Game Makers Guild. 239 00:10:50,220 --> 00:10:52,500 So we host a lot of events, which 240 00:10:52,500 --> 00:10:55,130 you guys have had any games at any level of prototype, 241 00:10:55,130 --> 00:10:59,454 whether it's nearly finished or you just scrapped down 242 00:10:59,454 --> 00:11:01,620 something on a napkin and you're like it might play. 243 00:11:01,620 --> 00:11:05,340 Let me go grab some dice or whatever, we accept that. 244 00:11:05,340 --> 00:11:07,470 Check out our site. 245 00:11:07,470 --> 00:11:09,530 meetup/gamemakersguild. 246 00:11:09,530 --> 00:11:12,025 Actually, we just recently got gamemakersguild.com. 247 00:11:12,025 --> 00:11:13,275 So you can go to that website. 248 00:11:13,275 --> 00:11:14,399 GLENN GIVEN: That's a coup. 249 00:11:14,399 --> 00:11:16,800 MACKENZIE CAMERON: --which I'm a little [INAUDIBLE]. 250 00:11:16,800 --> 00:11:17,880 It's sweet. 251 00:11:17,880 --> 00:11:21,176 I'm slowly trying to make sure that we build copies for that. 252 00:11:21,176 --> 00:11:23,026 GLENN GIVEN: [INAUDIBLE]. 253 00:11:23,026 --> 00:11:24,780 MACKENZIE CAMERON: gamemakersguild.com, 254 00:11:24,780 --> 00:11:26,090 which is awesome. 255 00:11:26,090 --> 00:11:28,423 I don't know how we managed to get that without somebody 256 00:11:28,423 --> 00:11:30,190 else already having it. 257 00:11:30,190 --> 00:11:33,420 But I host some of other events that we hose. 258 00:11:33,420 --> 00:11:35,040 We have your standard play testing, 259 00:11:35,040 --> 00:11:39,330 but we also do indie board games showcases, actually. 260 00:11:39,330 --> 00:11:43,200 I've hosted that in Brookline three times now, 261 00:11:43,200 --> 00:11:45,487 where we just get anyone that has a cool design. 262 00:11:45,487 --> 00:11:47,570 So make your designs, and then we try and bring it 263 00:11:47,570 --> 00:11:48,990 out to the public. 264 00:11:48,990 --> 00:11:50,791 And then what's the other stuff that I do? 265 00:11:50,791 --> 00:11:53,040 I try to get my hands in everything board game related 266 00:11:53,040 --> 00:11:54,492 in Boston. 267 00:11:54,492 --> 00:11:56,910 I help out at Knight Moves, the board game 268 00:11:56,910 --> 00:11:59,740 cafe out in Brookline, which is a lot of fun. 269 00:11:59,740 --> 00:12:03,330 If you guys don't know about it, you pay $10, you get in. 270 00:12:03,330 --> 00:12:05,490 They have a library of something like 700 games. 271 00:12:05,490 --> 00:12:07,260 You can play for as long as you like 272 00:12:07,260 --> 00:12:08,892 with anybody that's around. 273 00:12:08,892 --> 00:12:12,840 I also do a board game seen to web comic, overboard-comic.com. 274 00:12:15,385 --> 00:12:17,845 And then there's one more thing. 275 00:12:17,845 --> 00:12:21,410 I'm going to be doing a panel of techs this year. 276 00:12:21,410 --> 00:12:22,890 Me and five other folks are going 277 00:12:22,890 --> 00:12:26,530 to be talking about board game language, which 278 00:12:26,530 --> 00:12:27,950 should be pretty interesting. 279 00:12:27,950 --> 00:12:29,470 It's talk like a board game geek, 280 00:12:29,470 --> 00:12:30,553 if anyone is going to PAX. 281 00:12:30,553 --> 00:12:33,074 Who's going to PAX? 282 00:12:33,074 --> 00:12:33,740 Not many of you. 283 00:12:33,740 --> 00:12:34,730 You should totally go. 284 00:12:34,730 --> 00:12:35,670 It's the best thing. 285 00:12:35,670 --> 00:12:38,820 It's The reason I moved to Boston. 286 00:12:38,820 --> 00:12:42,060 And then in the sort of a distant future, 287 00:12:42,060 --> 00:12:46,940 I've got plans for my maiden voyage into Kickstarter 288 00:12:46,940 --> 00:12:51,390 called Killer Croquet, which is the croquet-based murder 289 00:12:51,390 --> 00:12:52,000 simulator. 290 00:12:52,000 --> 00:12:54,030 That will be a board game. 291 00:12:54,030 --> 00:12:56,540 And it's amazing. 292 00:12:56,540 --> 00:12:58,700 Not to say that Glenn is wrong about everything, 293 00:12:58,700 --> 00:13:03,160 but I'm doing the one idea, build it up, 294 00:13:03,160 --> 00:13:04,590 do the kickstarter sort of thing. 295 00:13:04,590 --> 00:13:07,654 The rapid iteration is really important, 296 00:13:07,654 --> 00:13:09,570 but there's definitely lots of different paths 297 00:13:09,570 --> 00:13:11,585 towards making a board game and having it be successful. 298 00:13:11,585 --> 00:13:12,750 GLENN GIVEN: I think the main difference 299 00:13:12,750 --> 00:13:14,210 is that he has another job. 300 00:13:14,210 --> 00:13:14,980 MACKENZIE CAMERON: Oh, yeah. 301 00:13:14,980 --> 00:13:15,380 GLENN GIVEN: And I don't. 302 00:13:15,380 --> 00:13:17,000 MACKENZIE CAMERON: That's true. 303 00:13:17,000 --> 00:13:18,900 I do this for no money at all. 304 00:13:18,900 --> 00:13:19,650 GLENN GIVEN: Yeah. 305 00:13:19,650 --> 00:13:22,600 I did this for no money too, except that's a problem. 306 00:13:25,120 --> 00:13:27,170 So rapid iteration. 307 00:13:27,170 --> 00:13:32,850 But do you want to talk about how you went from game idea 308 00:13:32,850 --> 00:13:34,230 to the prototype? 309 00:13:34,230 --> 00:13:35,230 MACKENZIE CAMERON: Sure. 310 00:13:35,230 --> 00:13:38,162 GLENN GIVEN: I mean, do you want to let them ask questions? 311 00:13:38,162 --> 00:13:39,971 PROFESSOR: [INAUDIBLE]. 312 00:13:39,971 --> 00:13:40,470 Process. 313 00:13:40,470 --> 00:13:41,219 GLENN GIVEN: Yeah. 314 00:13:41,219 --> 00:13:43,210 PROFESSOR: And then the next question. 315 00:13:43,210 --> 00:13:45,460 MACKENZIE CAMERON: So process. 316 00:13:45,460 --> 00:13:47,460 Mine is definitely rapid iteration, 317 00:13:47,460 --> 00:13:49,890 but I've finally settled on one idea 318 00:13:49,890 --> 00:13:53,450 that I actually watch you push forward rather than trying 319 00:13:53,450 --> 00:13:57,202 to bundle them up in small ideas, get the one big one. 320 00:13:57,202 --> 00:13:58,660 I think the main difference of that 321 00:13:58,660 --> 00:14:00,930 is that I'm hoping that with that one idea, 322 00:14:00,930 --> 00:14:07,120 I'll be able to use momentum to generally generate 323 00:14:07,120 --> 00:14:12,210 more funding for the general brand name of my design studio. 324 00:14:12,210 --> 00:14:14,455 But coming up of that idea is definitely 325 00:14:14,455 --> 00:14:16,720 a rapid iteration process where you come up 326 00:14:16,720 --> 00:14:19,450 with the very sketchy idea. 327 00:14:19,450 --> 00:14:21,336 Some designers start with a mechanic, 328 00:14:21,336 --> 00:14:23,210 so they're like I want to do something that's 329 00:14:23,210 --> 00:14:25,017 deck building where you build decks 330 00:14:25,017 --> 00:14:27,100 over the course of the game, which makes an engine 331 00:14:27,100 --> 00:14:29,700 that you then draw to then do other cool things. 332 00:14:29,700 --> 00:14:33,580 And then other designers, myself, I'm usually like this. 333 00:14:33,580 --> 00:14:36,290 Start with some sort of system or some sort of theme, 334 00:14:36,290 --> 00:14:40,030 like a croquet, and see if you can turn that into a board game 335 00:14:40,030 --> 00:14:42,190 by adding different mechanics and seeing what works 336 00:14:42,190 --> 00:14:45,877 and what doesn't, which the Game Makers Guild is 337 00:14:45,877 --> 00:14:46,960 pretty fantastic for that. 338 00:14:46,960 --> 00:14:48,834 Because when you get a game and you design it 339 00:14:48,834 --> 00:14:50,959 and on your first [INAUDIBLE] you look at your game 340 00:14:50,959 --> 00:14:52,084 and you go this is amazing. 341 00:14:52,084 --> 00:14:53,290 This is going to work. 342 00:14:53,290 --> 00:14:55,040 And you try and tell someone about it, 343 00:14:55,040 --> 00:14:56,800 and you try and have them play it. 344 00:14:56,800 --> 00:14:59,428 And that doesn't always work so well. 345 00:14:59,428 --> 00:15:00,594 GLENN GIVEN: It never works. 346 00:15:00,594 --> 00:15:01,570 MACKENZIE CAMERON: It never works, actually. 347 00:15:01,570 --> 00:15:03,486 GLENN GIVEN: The first time you put your thing 348 00:15:03,486 --> 00:15:07,950 down on the table, it's going to maybe burst into flames. 349 00:15:07,950 --> 00:15:09,550 MACKENZIE CAMERON: Yeah. 350 00:15:09,550 --> 00:15:12,460 A best case scenario is that it bursts into flames 351 00:15:12,460 --> 00:15:13,850 and you've made some mistakes. 352 00:15:13,850 --> 00:15:17,617 And it's basically unplayable because you need dice. 353 00:15:17,617 --> 00:15:19,450 And you realize that when you roll the dice, 354 00:15:19,450 --> 00:15:22,135 the numbers always add up to some combination of factors 355 00:15:22,135 --> 00:15:24,280 that when you apply that to system, 356 00:15:24,280 --> 00:15:26,557 it's like oh, well, you're supposed to move one space, 357 00:15:26,557 --> 00:15:29,140 but every time you do this, you actually just die immediately. 358 00:15:29,140 --> 00:15:29,848 GLENN GIVEN: Yes. 359 00:15:29,848 --> 00:15:32,040 So people can break it in mechanically. 360 00:15:32,040 --> 00:15:36,340 You find a tautology element in it and just repeatedly-- 361 00:15:36,340 --> 00:15:39,400 MACKENZIE CAMERON: But one of the worst thing that you can 362 00:15:39,400 --> 00:15:42,160 do, I had a game that I was developing for a while. 363 00:15:42,160 --> 00:15:44,250 I pitched it to Game Salute. 364 00:15:44,250 --> 00:15:45,720 And it was a semi-cooperative game. 365 00:15:45,720 --> 00:15:48,490 So the idea was that all players have 366 00:15:48,490 --> 00:15:50,490 to work together so that everybody doesn't lose, 367 00:15:50,490 --> 00:15:52,823 but then once you're going to reach a certain threshold, 368 00:15:52,823 --> 00:15:54,550 only one player can win. 369 00:15:54,550 --> 00:15:57,431 And kind of a difficult concept to really balance well, 370 00:15:57,431 --> 00:15:59,180 but I'm eventually going to really finagle 371 00:15:59,180 --> 00:16:00,520 it and get it working. 372 00:16:00,520 --> 00:16:02,374 And a bunch of my play testers played it, 373 00:16:02,374 --> 00:16:04,290 and it worked out exactly the way I wanted to. 374 00:16:04,290 --> 00:16:05,500 They'd play it to a certain point 375 00:16:05,500 --> 00:16:06,740 and then they turned on each other 376 00:16:06,740 --> 00:16:08,710 and then there's this big, climactic battle, 377 00:16:08,710 --> 00:16:09,585 and it was fantastic. 378 00:16:09,585 --> 00:16:12,180 I was Watching just the mechanics of how it works. 379 00:16:12,180 --> 00:16:15,467 And then I asked them, it seemed to work out really well. 380 00:16:15,467 --> 00:16:16,550 How did you guys enjoy it? 381 00:16:16,550 --> 00:16:17,920 They said, it was awful. 382 00:16:17,920 --> 00:16:19,390 I said but it works. 383 00:16:19,390 --> 00:16:22,050 You guys functioned in the way that was really functional. 384 00:16:22,050 --> 00:16:25,350 Yeah, but it wasn't fun, which is something 385 00:16:25,350 --> 00:16:29,410 that you realize as a designer, you're putting stuff together 386 00:16:29,410 --> 00:16:30,940 that the things that you necessarily 387 00:16:30,940 --> 00:16:34,060 think are really interesting or even if they're working 388 00:16:34,060 --> 00:16:36,225 don't necessarily come across as fun. 389 00:16:36,225 --> 00:16:37,932 AUDIENCE: But that's really interesting. 390 00:16:37,932 --> 00:16:38,890 They finished the game. 391 00:16:38,890 --> 00:16:40,595 They didn't like playing the game, 392 00:16:40,595 --> 00:16:41,990 yet they both played the game. 393 00:16:41,990 --> 00:16:43,440 MACKENZIE CAMERON: Yes. 394 00:16:43,440 --> 00:16:45,626 AUDIENCE: Is that common when you do play tests? 395 00:16:45,626 --> 00:16:46,126 [INAUDIBLE] 396 00:16:46,126 --> 00:16:48,470 MACKENZIE CAMERON: They're involved in the game. 397 00:16:48,470 --> 00:16:50,040 GLENN GIVEN: Usually like, especially 398 00:16:50,040 --> 00:16:51,540 if it's in a dedicated play testing group 399 00:16:51,540 --> 00:16:53,415 and especially in the Game Makers Guild where 400 00:16:53,415 --> 00:17:00,400 it's primarily designers, that has its own downsides to it. 401 00:17:00,400 --> 00:17:03,070 But yeah, they'll see it through. 402 00:17:03,070 --> 00:17:05,650 I mean, they'll go [INAUDIBLE] on it, 403 00:17:05,650 --> 00:17:09,970 push that boulder all the way up just to see-- 404 00:17:09,970 --> 00:17:12,550 I mean, even when we found stuff that 405 00:17:12,550 --> 00:17:14,710 is completely broken in a game. 406 00:17:14,710 --> 00:17:17,890 I was playing a game where it was robots rising up 407 00:17:17,890 --> 00:17:20,829 against humans or something and there's this whole propaganda 408 00:17:20,829 --> 00:17:21,390 element. 409 00:17:21,390 --> 00:17:22,848 And then in the first few turns, we 410 00:17:22,848 --> 00:17:25,990 had identified that if you just went to this one space 411 00:17:25,990 --> 00:17:29,260 on the board and continued to buy propaganda posters, 412 00:17:29,260 --> 00:17:31,860 you could shut every other player out of the game. 413 00:17:31,860 --> 00:17:33,820 And so it's just I'm going to go there. 414 00:17:33,820 --> 00:17:34,737 I'm not going to move. 415 00:17:34,737 --> 00:17:36,945 I'm just going to keep doing this for the entire game 416 00:17:36,945 --> 00:17:37,570 until I win. 417 00:17:37,570 --> 00:17:39,130 And at that point, you could be like, OK, 418 00:17:39,130 --> 00:17:40,480 I don't want to play this game anymore. 419 00:17:40,480 --> 00:17:42,730 This is dumb, but we just did it for a half hour 420 00:17:42,730 --> 00:17:45,250 and different people tried different things 421 00:17:45,250 --> 00:17:48,580 using the rule set to unseat that bad decision. 422 00:17:48,580 --> 00:17:51,550 So sometimes even when you identity something that's 423 00:17:51,550 --> 00:17:57,810 broken, it just gives you a new wound to start poking at to see 424 00:17:57,810 --> 00:17:59,505 does this hurt? 425 00:17:59,505 --> 00:18:00,570 It's like a doctor. 426 00:18:00,570 --> 00:18:03,400 That's how doctors work. 427 00:18:03,400 --> 00:18:04,440 Stab you. 428 00:18:04,440 --> 00:18:07,340 MACKENZIE CAMERON: Well, that's that doctor's game. 429 00:18:07,340 --> 00:18:08,770 Solve them. 430 00:18:08,770 --> 00:18:11,080 That's great. 431 00:18:11,080 --> 00:18:12,970 Encouraging play testers to finish a game 432 00:18:12,970 --> 00:18:15,214 can be an art in and of itself. 433 00:18:15,214 --> 00:18:16,630 Oftentimes, when you get designers 434 00:18:16,630 --> 00:18:19,361 that think that they can fix your game for you, 435 00:18:19,361 --> 00:18:21,610 it will be hard pressed to get them to finish the game 436 00:18:21,610 --> 00:18:22,420 because they're like no, no. 437 00:18:22,420 --> 00:18:24,360 This is where you should do it like this. 438 00:18:24,360 --> 00:18:26,200 But in trying to urge your play testers, 439 00:18:26,200 --> 00:18:28,440 we actually had an event where we brought somebody 440 00:18:28,440 --> 00:18:32,249 in who was an expert on generating play tests feedback, 441 00:18:32,249 --> 00:18:33,790 actually, for video games, which need 442 00:18:33,790 --> 00:18:36,772 a lot of paper prototyping, so it was a carry over. 443 00:18:36,772 --> 00:18:38,980 And often times it's just trying to encourage players 444 00:18:38,980 --> 00:18:41,440 to go all the way through because sometimes even 445 00:18:41,440 --> 00:18:44,140 as players, even with published games, 446 00:18:44,140 --> 00:18:46,540 you'll play a game like in the first playthrough you'll 447 00:18:46,540 --> 00:18:49,400 be like, oh, this one strategy is completely broken. 448 00:18:49,400 --> 00:18:51,880 I don't know if anyone is familiar with the card game 449 00:18:51,880 --> 00:18:54,340 Race for the Galaxy. 450 00:18:54,340 --> 00:18:56,170 Maybe a couple. 451 00:18:56,170 --> 00:18:59,030 But there's one particular strategy where the first time 452 00:18:59,030 --> 00:19:01,270 you play through, there's a military strategy 453 00:19:01,270 --> 00:19:03,330 where if you have a certain level of military, 454 00:19:03,330 --> 00:19:05,620 you can play a lot of cards roughly 455 00:19:05,620 --> 00:19:07,560 for free, which is based on the mechanics. 456 00:19:07,560 --> 00:19:10,018 And almost everybody that plays the game for the first time 457 00:19:10,018 --> 00:19:12,790 realizes, oh, man, military is such great strategy. 458 00:19:12,790 --> 00:19:14,625 How did they make this game? 459 00:19:14,625 --> 00:19:16,000 And then the second time you play 460 00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:17,835 through, two players try and use that strategy, 461 00:19:17,835 --> 00:19:19,793 and the third player does a different strategy. 462 00:19:19,793 --> 00:19:22,730 And all of a sudden that's the strategy that's overpowered. 463 00:19:22,730 --> 00:19:25,980 And oftentimes, because the game doesn't completely 464 00:19:25,980 --> 00:19:29,050 lay itself out in front of all the players in the first play 465 00:19:29,050 --> 00:19:33,890 test, the perception that it's broken 466 00:19:33,890 --> 00:19:35,182 is not always necessarily true. 467 00:19:35,182 --> 00:19:37,265 GLENN GIVEN: And you can't find that kind of stuff 468 00:19:37,265 --> 00:19:38,305 until you play test it. 469 00:19:38,305 --> 00:19:39,610 [INAUDIBLE] 470 00:19:39,610 --> 00:19:40,840 Questions? 471 00:19:40,840 --> 00:19:43,390 AUDIENCE: Essentially, I think [INAUDIBLE] example of that 472 00:19:43,390 --> 00:19:46,170 is [INAUDIBLE], where how many people [INAUDIBLE], 473 00:19:46,170 --> 00:19:47,115 like oh, man. 474 00:19:47,115 --> 00:19:48,490 This strategy is so overpowering. 475 00:19:48,490 --> 00:19:52,372 This person scored 70 points with it, and none of us 476 00:19:52,372 --> 00:19:54,000 were above 40 or so. 477 00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:56,380 And then you respond like 70. 478 00:19:56,380 --> 00:19:57,905 [INAUDIBLE] 479 00:19:57,905 --> 00:20:00,030 GLENN GIVEN: Well, there is always stuff like that. 480 00:20:00,030 --> 00:20:03,130 I think that illuminates another interesting thing 481 00:20:03,130 --> 00:20:05,584 about play testing. 482 00:20:05,584 --> 00:20:07,000 The group that you're play testing 483 00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:09,790 with really can make a huge difference, 484 00:20:09,790 --> 00:20:11,520 not just is this person a designer 485 00:20:11,520 --> 00:20:13,070 or is this person not a designer, 486 00:20:13,070 --> 00:20:19,690 but how deeply they want to get into mastering that system 487 00:20:19,690 --> 00:20:22,082 or how much they care about mastering that system. 488 00:20:22,082 --> 00:20:23,540 MACKENZIE CAMERON: Yeah, because we 489 00:20:23,540 --> 00:20:25,079 offer multiple tiers of play testing 490 00:20:25,079 --> 00:20:26,120 at the Game Makers Guild. 491 00:20:26,120 --> 00:20:27,790 We have like just the standard where you come and you 492 00:20:27,790 --> 00:20:30,310 play with a bunch of designers, and they tell you it's crap. 493 00:20:30,310 --> 00:20:31,750 And you go home and you cry, and then 494 00:20:31,750 --> 00:20:33,570 you make it a little bit better and you feel a little better. 495 00:20:33,570 --> 00:20:35,835 But then also we have intensive play testing, 496 00:20:35,835 --> 00:20:38,875 which is phase two after you get a certain number. 497 00:20:38,875 --> 00:20:40,870 We have a nomination and serration system. 498 00:20:40,870 --> 00:20:44,590 We're trying to set up a game maker's seal of approval 499 00:20:44,590 --> 00:20:47,830 so we can hopefully better pitch our games to designers 500 00:20:47,830 --> 00:20:49,632 and the general public. 501 00:20:49,632 --> 00:20:52,209 But the phase two intensive was the chance for you 502 00:20:52,209 --> 00:20:54,250 to get the same group of people together and play 503 00:20:54,250 --> 00:20:56,200 your game a bunch of times. 504 00:20:56,200 --> 00:21:00,670 And I mean, again, part of the fun of that 505 00:21:00,670 --> 00:21:02,500 for Play Chesters, for a designer, 506 00:21:02,500 --> 00:21:04,780 it helps to iterate that even if the game is broken so 507 00:21:04,780 --> 00:21:07,200 you can find those little bits and pieces where 508 00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:09,965 the games completely falls apart. 509 00:21:09,965 --> 00:21:13,755 But at Play Chester, it can kind of fun to just find-- 510 00:21:13,755 --> 00:21:16,360 I mean, it's like when you play a video game 511 00:21:16,360 --> 00:21:19,060 and find some element of the game 512 00:21:19,060 --> 00:21:20,980 where the graphics are screwed up 513 00:21:20,980 --> 00:21:24,132 or you fall through the world or almost 514 00:21:24,132 --> 00:21:25,340 just the exploration of that. 515 00:21:25,340 --> 00:21:26,714 And I have a lot of play testers. 516 00:21:26,714 --> 00:21:31,640 They enjoy finding the chinks in the armor, so to speak 517 00:21:31,640 --> 00:21:33,390 GLENN GIVEN: Well, I think the other thing 518 00:21:33,390 --> 00:21:35,880 about do repeat a play test especially 519 00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:39,430 if it's the same group, has anybody played the Vlambeer 520 00:21:39,430 --> 00:21:42,700 game, Luftrausers, that just came out? 521 00:21:42,700 --> 00:21:43,214 It's great. 522 00:21:43,214 --> 00:21:44,005 You should play it. 523 00:21:44,005 --> 00:21:45,290 It's Totally worth the money. 524 00:21:45,290 --> 00:21:51,520 It's kind of like a Lunar Lander meets Asteroids game. 525 00:21:51,520 --> 00:21:56,410 So you're kind of drifting, but you can customize your airplane 526 00:21:56,410 --> 00:21:58,630 with different engines and different bodies 527 00:21:58,630 --> 00:21:59,770 and different weapons. 528 00:21:59,770 --> 00:22:02,090 And they all make the game play-- 529 00:22:02,090 --> 00:22:06,760 they all screw with the physics of the game in different ways. 530 00:22:06,760 --> 00:22:08,650 Well, unless you put three or four 531 00:22:08,650 --> 00:22:10,990 hours into playing that game, which 532 00:22:10,990 --> 00:22:15,590 is a lot of time for a very arcady-style game, 533 00:22:15,590 --> 00:22:18,375 you won't really know how do I get past this certain threshold 534 00:22:18,375 --> 00:22:19,850 of points. 535 00:22:19,850 --> 00:22:23,860 And what is my sweet spot in controlling this airplane 536 00:22:23,860 --> 00:22:28,170 that I can maximize how powerful I am with it. 537 00:22:28,170 --> 00:22:29,980 The same thing in boardgames. 538 00:22:29,980 --> 00:22:32,920 Often, it doesn't happen in that time frame. 539 00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:36,040 But for instance, with Netrunner or Magical or whatever, 540 00:22:36,040 --> 00:22:38,080 you play and play and play and play. 541 00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:41,410 And you start to realize that some of the things in this game 542 00:22:41,410 --> 00:22:43,560 are just red herrings. 543 00:22:43,560 --> 00:22:49,810 They're just included to dilute the power of other things, 544 00:22:49,810 --> 00:22:53,230 or they're included to counterbalance 545 00:22:53,230 --> 00:22:54,790 very specific scenarios. 546 00:22:54,790 --> 00:22:57,250 And things that seem like total waste 547 00:22:57,250 --> 00:23:00,750 are actually really important later on in the game 548 00:23:00,750 --> 00:23:02,807 and you just can't get that up front. 549 00:23:02,807 --> 00:23:04,390 MACKENZIE CAMERON: So just real quick. 550 00:23:04,390 --> 00:23:06,100 Going back to Sulkeen really quick 551 00:23:06,100 --> 00:23:08,980 is that there is a certain difficulty 552 00:23:08,980 --> 00:23:10,229 with the length of games. 553 00:23:10,229 --> 00:23:12,520 So if you have a game and you're trying to play test it 554 00:23:12,520 --> 00:23:16,240 and you hit 30 minutes and it's not fun, 555 00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:18,430 and then you tell your players, don't worry. 556 00:23:18,430 --> 00:23:21,910 There's two and a half hours more to it and we'll get it 557 00:23:21,910 --> 00:23:26,500 figured out, you've got a much harder row to tow on that, 558 00:23:26,500 --> 00:23:29,110 which actually, you'll find I think, 559 00:23:29,110 --> 00:23:31,420 in part you'll see a lot more games that are designed 560 00:23:31,420 --> 00:23:34,810 for the 45-minute mark because that's usually-- 561 00:23:34,810 --> 00:23:37,210 I mean, that's the easiest way to iterate a game. 562 00:23:37,210 --> 00:23:38,050 GLENN GIVEN: It's also about the time. 563 00:23:38,050 --> 00:23:39,841 I mean, think about the amount of free time 564 00:23:39,841 --> 00:23:41,050 you really have in your life. 565 00:23:41,050 --> 00:23:43,174 MACKENZIE CAMERON: Well, they certainly have a lot. 566 00:23:43,174 --> 00:23:44,085 They're students. 567 00:23:44,085 --> 00:23:45,876 GLENN GIVEN: But even that, I mean, there's 568 00:23:45,876 --> 00:23:48,216 kegs to stand on and all that stuff. 569 00:23:48,216 --> 00:23:50,460 I don't know what they do at MIT. 570 00:23:50,460 --> 00:23:52,950 MACKENZIE CAMERON: It's some sort of giant-like robot. 571 00:23:52,950 --> 00:23:53,700 GLENN GIVEN: Yeah. 572 00:23:53,700 --> 00:23:55,270 You build a robot. 573 00:23:55,270 --> 00:23:56,380 I'm sorry. 574 00:23:56,380 --> 00:24:00,880 I have a dime in my time because I'm a professional. 575 00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:02,834 It's just driving me mad. 576 00:24:02,834 --> 00:24:05,250 Otherwise, another important thing about being a designer, 577 00:24:05,250 --> 00:24:06,750 develop a mental disorder. 578 00:24:06,750 --> 00:24:09,370 That will really, really help you get the tiny problems 579 00:24:09,370 --> 00:24:11,036 like dimes in your tie out. 580 00:24:14,830 --> 00:24:16,330 So yeah. 581 00:24:16,330 --> 00:24:20,020 Half hour, 45-minute games are becoming the thing. 582 00:24:20,020 --> 00:24:23,320 As board games become more and more popular in America, 583 00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:24,640 because they were always-- 584 00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:27,550 well, for the past 25, 30 years they 585 00:24:27,550 --> 00:24:30,589 were very popular in Europe. 586 00:24:30,589 --> 00:24:32,380 And when we were talking about board games, 587 00:24:32,380 --> 00:24:36,010 I think we're not talking about traditional games 588 00:24:36,010 --> 00:24:42,490 like Monopoly, Scrabble, that kind of early American family 589 00:24:42,490 --> 00:24:43,560 board game, I think. 590 00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:45,809 MACKENZIE CAMERON: Because they're still a great game. 591 00:24:45,809 --> 00:24:46,530 There's so much. 592 00:24:46,530 --> 00:24:47,620 When we talk about board games, we 593 00:24:47,620 --> 00:24:50,410 talk about they're roughly this big because the designer's name 594 00:24:50,410 --> 00:24:54,840 on the box, they take between 45 to 3 hours. 595 00:24:54,840 --> 00:24:58,340 Produce some things like War Hammer and different war games. 596 00:24:58,340 --> 00:25:00,620 Because there's whole other cultures out there, 597 00:25:00,620 --> 00:25:02,120 which is really cool. 598 00:25:02,120 --> 00:25:04,620 But when we say board games, we're talking about that again. 599 00:25:04,620 --> 00:25:07,390 GLENN GIVEN: And that's different from say, 600 00:25:07,390 --> 00:25:09,800 I like to use the term tabletop games, 601 00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:12,430 but I'll expand that really far. 602 00:25:12,430 --> 00:25:15,015 I did a tabletop producing for the Boston Festival Indie 603 00:25:15,015 --> 00:25:16,640 Games, which is coming up in September. 604 00:25:16,640 --> 00:25:18,514 MACKENZIE CAMERON: We should talk about that. 605 00:25:18,514 --> 00:25:21,340 GLENN GIVEN: The game is like a hockey rink filled up 606 00:25:21,340 --> 00:25:23,085 with indie games. 607 00:25:23,085 --> 00:25:24,460 I don't know much more than that. 608 00:25:24,460 --> 00:25:26,560 We just opened the submissions yesterday. 609 00:25:26,560 --> 00:25:27,750 AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE]. 610 00:25:31,090 --> 00:25:33,790 GLENN GIVEN: Well, one of the differences from last year 611 00:25:33,790 --> 00:25:37,150 that when I came onboard because it was my first year doing it, 612 00:25:37,150 --> 00:25:39,700 I really wanted the stress was that a tabletop 613 00:25:39,700 --> 00:25:45,880 game or an analog game is a different term than a board 614 00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:46,450 game. 615 00:25:46,450 --> 00:25:49,180 A board game is literally something with a board. 616 00:25:49,180 --> 00:25:52,240 But a tabletop game, I'll stretch that and say card games 617 00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:53,080 are tabletop games. 618 00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:54,910 Roll-playing games are tabletop games. 619 00:25:54,910 --> 00:25:59,130 You can be playing the clunkiest most grognard DMD-- 620 00:25:59,130 --> 00:26:05,657 "grognard" is a French term for curmudgeonly old guys. 621 00:26:05,657 --> 00:26:06,490 That's basically it. 622 00:26:06,490 --> 00:26:08,966 I think it actually is for generals or something. 623 00:26:08,966 --> 00:26:12,170 They're the worst. 624 00:26:12,170 --> 00:26:16,434 So Apples to Apples is a tabletop game. 625 00:26:16,434 --> 00:26:18,100 What's the game where you're pulling out 626 00:26:18,100 --> 00:26:19,641 the sticks and the marbles fall down? 627 00:26:19,641 --> 00:26:20,270 Ker-Plunk. 628 00:26:20,270 --> 00:26:21,580 God, I love that game. 629 00:26:21,580 --> 00:26:22,900 Ker-Plunk is a tabletop game. 630 00:26:22,900 --> 00:26:25,880 Dominoes is a tabletop game. 631 00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:28,650 Bocce Ball is not a tabletop game, but it's great. 632 00:26:28,650 --> 00:26:32,700 But also if roll-playing games or tabletop games, 633 00:26:32,700 --> 00:26:34,510 does that mean a LARP is a tabletop game? 634 00:26:34,510 --> 00:26:38,080 Because a LARP is just the roll-playing game without dice. 635 00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:40,280 And if LARPs are tabletop games, then how about-- 636 00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:40,965 MACKENZIE CAMERON: I think they're 637 00:26:40,965 --> 00:26:42,131 technically dexterity games. 638 00:26:42,131 --> 00:26:44,860 GLENN GIVEN: Well, if you're doing proper LARPs. 639 00:26:44,860 --> 00:26:47,290 But if you're doing something like a Nordic LARP, 640 00:26:47,290 --> 00:26:51,730 which is the brand of live-action roll playing from 641 00:26:51,730 --> 00:26:53,365 Norway, Sweden, and Finland-- 642 00:26:53,365 --> 00:26:55,770 MACKENZIE CAMERON: God, those folks leave me nuts. 643 00:26:55,770 --> 00:26:58,270 GLENN GIVEN: I was invited to a convention with those people 644 00:26:58,270 --> 00:27:00,557 last week, and they are hilarious. 645 00:27:00,557 --> 00:27:02,140 MACKENZIE CAMERON: The only one that I 646 00:27:02,140 --> 00:27:05,410 know that they do there's a Battlestar Galactica, where 647 00:27:05,410 --> 00:27:07,760 they actually they rent out an old-- 648 00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:08,892 GLENN GIVEN: Battleship. 649 00:27:08,892 --> 00:27:10,225 MACKENZIE CAMERON: --battleship. 650 00:27:10,225 --> 00:27:11,425 GLENN GIVEN: For a weekend. 651 00:27:11,425 --> 00:27:12,925 MACKENZIE CAMERON: [INAUDIBLE] on it 652 00:27:12,925 --> 00:27:15,760 for a weekend, and yeah, they go and they play this game 653 00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:18,980 on right on a frigid waters and military bunkers 654 00:27:18,980 --> 00:27:21,700 playing Battlestar Galactica-themed live action 655 00:27:21,700 --> 00:27:22,450 role playing game. 656 00:27:22,450 --> 00:27:24,199 GLENN GIVEN: So it is a roll-playing game, 657 00:27:24,199 --> 00:27:26,860 but it's also like an interactive theater 658 00:27:26,860 --> 00:27:28,390 performance. 659 00:27:28,390 --> 00:27:32,530 That game was crazy, apparently. 660 00:27:32,530 --> 00:27:34,780 So is everybody familiar with Battlestar Galactica? 661 00:27:34,780 --> 00:27:35,280 OK. 662 00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:37,960 So there's robots, and they look like people. 663 00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:40,120 So it was a Battlestar Galactica, 664 00:27:40,120 --> 00:27:44,410 and then they had people who were cylons who were agents. 665 00:27:44,410 --> 00:27:47,500 And then anyone who was wearing red was a hallucination. 666 00:27:47,500 --> 00:27:50,452 It could only be seen by specific characters. 667 00:27:50,452 --> 00:27:52,206 MACKENZIE CAMERON: It gets better. 668 00:27:52,206 --> 00:27:54,080 GLENN GIVEN: From the second day of the LARP, 669 00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:55,538 and this is like a three-day thing. 670 00:27:55,538 --> 00:27:57,160 You frigging sleep on this battleship 671 00:27:57,160 --> 00:27:59,200 and everybody is in character the whole time. 672 00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:02,020 On the second day of the LARP, one of the guys 673 00:28:02,020 --> 00:28:05,830 who has red who was part of the plot as a hallucination, 674 00:28:05,830 --> 00:28:10,140 they brought his twin brother in who nobody else knew 675 00:28:10,140 --> 00:28:12,040 that he had a twin brother. 676 00:28:12,040 --> 00:28:14,332 So all of a sudden there's two identical hallucinations 677 00:28:14,332 --> 00:28:15,998 wandering around the ship, and everybody 678 00:28:15,998 --> 00:28:17,360 is flipping their fucking wig. 679 00:28:19,974 --> 00:28:22,390 So I guess what I'm saying is, if we can rent a battleship 680 00:28:22,390 --> 00:28:23,432 for [INAUDIBLE]. 681 00:28:26,470 --> 00:28:28,990 And then like games like Johann Sebastian 682 00:28:28,990 --> 00:28:32,560 Joust, which is a digital game, but is it really 683 00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:33,340 a digital game? 684 00:28:33,340 --> 00:28:34,810 It's really kind of like tag. 685 00:28:34,810 --> 00:28:35,726 MACKENZIE CAMERON: No. 686 00:28:35,726 --> 00:28:38,170 I wouldn't say-- what is it? 687 00:28:38,170 --> 00:28:38,810 Spaceteam. 688 00:28:38,810 --> 00:28:41,580 I don't know if you guys know Spaceteam at all. iOS game. 689 00:28:41,580 --> 00:28:44,110 You play it by basically you have a user interface. 690 00:28:44,110 --> 00:28:46,770 And you press buttons before a timer runs out. 691 00:28:46,770 --> 00:28:48,610 Unfortunately, what button you have to press 692 00:28:48,610 --> 00:28:51,290 is not on your screen, but on someone else's screen. 693 00:28:51,290 --> 00:28:53,320 So they'll tell you to flash the paper screw, 694 00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:54,945 and you look on your thing and do 695 00:28:54,945 --> 00:28:56,410 I have the paper screw flash? 696 00:28:56,410 --> 00:28:59,230 But at the same that is that a video game because there's not 697 00:28:59,230 --> 00:29:01,930 really much to it in terms of the digital aspect 698 00:29:01,930 --> 00:29:03,928 so much as that it's a timer and you 699 00:29:03,928 --> 00:29:04,660 have to press buttons at the right time. 700 00:29:04,660 --> 00:29:06,368 You could make an analog version of that. 701 00:29:06,368 --> 00:29:08,762 GLENN GIVEN: You can make an analog version of that. 702 00:29:08,762 --> 00:29:12,150 AUDIENCE: So that brings us into the funding aspects of things. 703 00:29:12,150 --> 00:29:14,650 All these different categories, all these different markets, 704 00:29:14,650 --> 00:29:16,346 you can think of. 705 00:29:16,346 --> 00:29:17,340 How are you exploring? 706 00:29:17,340 --> 00:29:18,990 How are you marketing your games? 707 00:29:18,990 --> 00:29:21,580 What are you marketing your games as? 708 00:29:21,580 --> 00:29:22,580 What's your [INAUDIBLE]? 709 00:29:22,580 --> 00:29:24,080 MACKENZIE CAMERON: Well, certainly-- 710 00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:25,370 GLENN GIVEN: I have no idea. 711 00:29:25,370 --> 00:29:27,620 MACKENZIE CAMERON: Certainly, when we say board games, 712 00:29:27,620 --> 00:29:31,440 we mean like against the box about yeah big, which is, 713 00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:34,840 in this instance, I call it the hobby industry, 714 00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:38,670 though there's a lot of very nebulous terms of what 715 00:29:38,670 --> 00:29:39,630 that falls under. 716 00:29:39,630 --> 00:29:44,020 But the hobby industry is separate from the toy industry, 717 00:29:44,020 --> 00:29:49,220 which I was actually at Toy Fair in New York. 718 00:29:49,220 --> 00:29:53,792 Mostly, I actually just wrote an article on my blog 719 00:29:53,792 --> 00:29:56,250 about there is a difference between a game inventor, a game 720 00:29:56,250 --> 00:29:57,750 designer, and a game writer, and how 721 00:29:57,750 --> 00:30:02,220 it separates out the different industries that are out there. 722 00:30:02,220 --> 00:30:05,814 But for myself personally, our kind 723 00:30:05,814 --> 00:30:07,230 of industry and where we're hoping 724 00:30:07,230 --> 00:30:09,330 that we're seeing the most growth 725 00:30:09,330 --> 00:30:11,860 is the feeling that people that are mostly 726 00:30:11,860 --> 00:30:13,860 on social media, a lot of people that are really 727 00:30:13,860 --> 00:30:17,790 into Kickstarter, and very into thematic games 728 00:30:17,790 --> 00:30:22,299 that are both themselves semantically interesting 729 00:30:22,299 --> 00:30:24,090 as well as the systems that are within them 730 00:30:24,090 --> 00:30:29,250 are fair and balanced and are worthwhile to do. 731 00:30:29,250 --> 00:30:32,100 So my strategy is actually to initiate. 732 00:30:32,100 --> 00:30:34,716 My Kickstarter is in about six months. 733 00:30:34,716 --> 00:30:36,090 And in that time, I'm going to be 734 00:30:36,090 --> 00:30:40,860 creating a trans-media storytelling ad campaign that 735 00:30:40,860 --> 00:30:44,760 will take the theme of the game, turn it into sort of a story, 736 00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:47,700 and then promote that as well as talking 737 00:30:47,700 --> 00:30:51,010 about just the general design as a result hoping 738 00:30:51,010 --> 00:30:56,430 to engage social media networks that will then generate 739 00:30:56,430 --> 00:30:59,220 the needed buzz for when the Kickstarter campaign actually 740 00:30:59,220 --> 00:31:00,450 launches. 741 00:31:00,450 --> 00:31:02,160 GLENN GIVEN: A lot of fundraising 742 00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:06,180 has less to do with what you're making and more 743 00:31:06,180 --> 00:31:09,090 to do with what you can conceivably 744 00:31:09,090 --> 00:31:10,550 accomplish in marketing. 745 00:31:10,550 --> 00:31:12,750 So if you have no budget, you have 746 00:31:12,750 --> 00:31:14,850 to rely on certain marketing techniques as opposed 747 00:31:14,850 --> 00:31:16,014 to others. 748 00:31:16,014 --> 00:31:17,430 A lot of people who have no budget 749 00:31:17,430 --> 00:31:19,490 like to think that commercials don't work. 750 00:31:19,490 --> 00:31:20,274 That's stupid. 751 00:31:20,274 --> 00:31:21,690 Why would anybody do that as a way 752 00:31:21,690 --> 00:31:23,564 of kind of convincing themselves that they've 753 00:31:23,564 --> 00:31:24,530 made a noble choice? 754 00:31:24,530 --> 00:31:25,080 No. 755 00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:26,413 They just didn't have the money. 756 00:31:26,413 --> 00:31:27,930 Sometimes commercials really work. 757 00:31:27,930 --> 00:31:32,550 For instance, as I was touring on my way down here, 758 00:31:32,550 --> 00:31:36,440 I relaunched a Google AdWords campaign for our game 759 00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:40,640 Slash because now I can fulfill orders for it. 760 00:31:40,640 --> 00:31:44,160 Using multiple marketing vectors in order 761 00:31:44,160 --> 00:31:46,740 to get people interested in your project is really, really 762 00:31:46,740 --> 00:31:52,170 important, especially because the means-- 763 00:31:52,170 --> 00:31:55,410 it's a very competitive space. 764 00:31:55,410 --> 00:32:01,230 It is an industry that is like a hobby and toy industry was 765 00:32:01,230 --> 00:32:04,965 like $6.1 billion last year, which is not insignificant, 766 00:32:04,965 --> 00:32:06,780 but it isn't video games. 767 00:32:06,780 --> 00:32:09,600 But unlike video games, it is an industry 768 00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:15,060 that has grown 11% on average, for the year over year 769 00:32:15,060 --> 00:32:17,121 for the past five years. 770 00:32:17,121 --> 00:32:18,870 MACKENZIE CAMERON: Before that it was even 771 00:32:18,870 --> 00:32:20,510 growing more so than that. 772 00:32:20,510 --> 00:32:21,180 GLENN GIVEN: No. 773 00:32:21,180 --> 00:32:24,810 It's actually gone up, but it's predicted in 2018, 774 00:32:24,810 --> 00:32:28,340 I just got the University of Texas research. 775 00:32:28,340 --> 00:32:30,690 I take it real serious. 776 00:32:30,690 --> 00:32:32,430 So it's a very fast growing industry 777 00:32:32,430 --> 00:32:34,486 because there's space in America for it. 778 00:32:34,486 --> 00:32:36,860 It's not as fast growing in Europe because that's already 779 00:32:36,860 --> 00:32:39,150 a supersaturated market. 780 00:32:39,150 --> 00:32:44,220 But stuff like Kickstarter, Patreon, and Indiegogo, 781 00:32:44,220 --> 00:32:49,590 even just going to shows and selling your wares, 782 00:32:49,590 --> 00:32:53,760 which is actually really the best way to do it. 783 00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:56,070 The way that you get people to come to them 784 00:32:56,070 --> 00:33:01,440 is to find the audiences that are already keyed into that. 785 00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:04,290 They like the idea of I'm helping a person make a thing. 786 00:33:04,290 --> 00:33:07,560 I'm not investing, but I'm kind of 787 00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:09,240 like pre-ordering this thing. 788 00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:11,760 So you've got to identify what those markets are 789 00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:13,940 and find the best ways to get them and convince 790 00:33:13,940 --> 00:33:16,770 them to throw money down a hole called Kickstarter. 791 00:33:16,770 --> 00:33:18,870 Because not everything on Kickstarter gets 792 00:33:18,870 --> 00:33:21,900 funded, and not everything that gets funded on Kickstarter 793 00:33:21,900 --> 00:33:22,600 gets done. 794 00:33:22,600 --> 00:33:23,135 And then-- 795 00:33:23,135 --> 00:33:23,970 MACKENZIE CAMERON: There's some horror stories. 796 00:33:23,970 --> 00:33:25,345 GLENN GIVEN: --many of the things 797 00:33:25,345 --> 00:33:28,066 that get funded and get done are crap. 798 00:33:32,337 --> 00:33:34,170 MACKENZIE CAMERON: [INAUDIBLE] a little bit. 799 00:33:34,170 --> 00:33:36,330 Like you said, it's a growing industry. 800 00:33:36,330 --> 00:33:40,620 So the hobby end of the growing industry as 801 00:33:40,620 --> 00:33:42,360 opposed to the toy industry. 802 00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:44,880 So if you're trying to get your games to Hasbro 803 00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:48,030 or I guess Parker Brothers, but anything 804 00:33:48,030 --> 00:33:50,220 else that ultimately leads back to Hasbro. 805 00:33:50,220 --> 00:33:52,482 GLENN GIVEN: Yeah, because Hasbro, [INAUDIBLE]. 806 00:33:52,482 --> 00:33:53,940 MACKENZIE CAMERON: But anything you 807 00:33:53,940 --> 00:33:56,540 want to get you game into Toys R Us, at that point, 808 00:33:56,540 --> 00:33:59,250 that industry is pretty static. 809 00:33:59,250 --> 00:34:04,170 So as a result, it's very hard to get known or mentioned 810 00:34:04,170 --> 00:34:05,400 at all in that. 811 00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:08,259 But because the hobby games industry is growing, 812 00:34:08,259 --> 00:34:09,800 there's more and more people that are 813 00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:11,940 looking for the ground floor. 814 00:34:11,940 --> 00:34:14,590 And as a result, if you can get your foot in, make 815 00:34:14,590 --> 00:34:18,026 a little brand for yourself, get your name out there, then when 816 00:34:18,026 --> 00:34:19,650 you actually do you start making games, 817 00:34:19,650 --> 00:34:21,630 people will recognize you, and you'll 818 00:34:21,630 --> 00:34:24,690 be able to kind of market yourself as a brand. 819 00:34:24,690 --> 00:34:28,350 Again, that's probably one of the most important things. 820 00:34:28,350 --> 00:34:29,850 And the only reason this is possible 821 00:34:29,850 --> 00:34:33,726 is because game designers start putting their names on the box. 822 00:34:33,726 --> 00:34:36,090 When we talk about designers, let's 823 00:34:36,090 --> 00:34:40,530 talk about Reiner Knizia, one of the most prolific game 824 00:34:40,530 --> 00:34:41,170 designers. 825 00:34:41,170 --> 00:34:43,469 And all of his brands are great, but his name 826 00:34:43,469 --> 00:34:45,540 is known in the hobby game industry 827 00:34:45,540 --> 00:34:50,042 because the dude designed like 300 games and actually has them 828 00:34:50,042 --> 00:34:52,080 all published. 829 00:34:52,080 --> 00:34:55,770 And as a result, when you see Reiner Knizia's name on a box, 830 00:34:55,770 --> 00:34:58,010 you're going to start to recognize that a little bit. 831 00:34:58,010 --> 00:34:59,260 When you're able to generate-- 832 00:34:59,260 --> 00:35:00,120 GLENN GIVEN: I mean, they're not that all good. 833 00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:02,080 MACKENZIE CAMERON: They're not all good. 834 00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:03,554 But Reiner Knizia. 835 00:35:03,554 --> 00:35:04,720 I've heard that name before. 836 00:35:04,720 --> 00:35:05,080 GLENN GIVEN: I agree. 837 00:35:05,080 --> 00:35:06,810 I mean, he created a brand for himself 838 00:35:06,810 --> 00:35:13,927 just like video game companies d, or labels in music. 839 00:35:13,927 --> 00:35:16,260 The music industry, you guys weren't around in the '90s, 840 00:35:16,260 --> 00:35:19,034 so you don't know it exists. 841 00:35:19,034 --> 00:35:21,520 For you, still exists. 842 00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:22,140 Yeah. 843 00:35:22,140 --> 00:35:25,110 So I think the interesting thing about the market 844 00:35:25,110 --> 00:35:30,510 and being able to have that personal brand as a designer is 845 00:35:30,510 --> 00:35:33,780 really important because the people who are playing board 846 00:35:33,780 --> 00:35:37,500 games right now and the growing market are, 847 00:35:37,500 --> 00:35:39,800 I guess, they're iconoclastic people. 848 00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:43,320 They're hey, we're all individual types, 849 00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:46,140 but they're all we're really big on geek culture. 850 00:35:46,140 --> 00:35:50,970 And then geek culture is bringing 75,000 people here 851 00:35:50,970 --> 00:35:53,496 this weekend, so maybe it's not as marginal 852 00:35:53,496 --> 00:35:54,870 as we'd like to think that it is. 853 00:35:54,870 --> 00:35:59,610 But it is a market that values individuality 854 00:35:59,610 --> 00:36:02,190 and individual productivity. 855 00:36:02,190 --> 00:36:06,450 So finding the ways to market to those people directly 856 00:36:06,450 --> 00:36:09,540 can often be really rewarding, especially if you're putting 857 00:36:09,540 --> 00:36:11,809 your face on what you're doing. 858 00:36:11,809 --> 00:36:13,350 MACKENZIE CAMERON: Another example is 859 00:36:13,350 --> 00:36:16,294 Daniel Solis, who's down in-- 860 00:36:16,294 --> 00:36:17,460 GLENN GIVEN: North Carolina. 861 00:36:17,460 --> 00:36:19,800 MACKENZIE CAMERON: North Carolina. 862 00:36:19,800 --> 00:36:22,630 For the longest time, I mean, he was a graphic designer, 863 00:36:22,630 --> 00:36:25,230 but he started a board game blog. 864 00:36:27,930 --> 00:36:30,120 He just talked about his expertise 865 00:36:30,120 --> 00:36:31,530 in designing a lot of games. 866 00:36:31,530 --> 00:36:34,830 He's a very prolific guy, and he does a lot of stuff 867 00:36:34,830 --> 00:36:39,300 that's just completely open source, print-and-play games. 868 00:36:39,300 --> 00:36:43,710 GLENN GIVEN: Actually, he works out of his house like I do, 869 00:36:43,710 --> 00:36:46,127 and we actually do a conference call every morning 870 00:36:46,127 --> 00:36:47,502 with a number of other designers. 871 00:36:47,502 --> 00:36:49,320 MACKENZIE CAMERON: I was wondering how you knew him. 872 00:36:49,320 --> 00:36:50,955 GLENN GIVEN: He's just released-- you 873 00:36:50,955 --> 00:36:51,954 guys ever watch Firefly? 874 00:36:51,954 --> 00:36:53,070 That show? 875 00:36:53,070 --> 00:36:55,090 So he just did the layout for-- 876 00:36:55,090 --> 00:36:59,497 like his normal job is doing graphic design layout. 877 00:36:59,497 --> 00:37:01,330 MACKENZIE CAMERON: Where's your other stuff? 878 00:37:04,200 --> 00:37:06,580 GLENN GIVEN: So he just laid out the Firefly BG, which 879 00:37:06,580 --> 00:37:10,800 is available for download now as PDF 880 00:37:10,800 --> 00:37:13,080 and then they're provisioning it later. 881 00:37:13,080 --> 00:37:15,600 So he does that, and then he has this whole 882 00:37:15,600 --> 00:37:17,620 I'm going to make games a lot and put them up 883 00:37:17,620 --> 00:37:21,420 on DriveThruCards, which is an online service that allows you 884 00:37:21,420 --> 00:37:24,290 to do print on demand, which is another one of the things that 885 00:37:24,290 --> 00:37:29,980 in the past year has really shaken up the board game 886 00:37:29,980 --> 00:37:32,060 industry. 887 00:37:32,060 --> 00:37:35,217 You used to not be able to get anything done unless you're are 888 00:37:35,217 --> 00:37:37,915 ready to do 3,000 copies of it, but now I can make a game, 889 00:37:37,915 --> 00:37:39,290 put it up through DriveThruCards, 890 00:37:39,290 --> 00:37:41,880 and you can go send $10 and download it. 891 00:37:41,880 --> 00:37:46,030 Or they would actually send you individual print in seconds. 892 00:37:46,030 --> 00:37:49,400 MACKENZIE CAMERON: But again, some of [INAUDIBLE]. 893 00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:51,480 So Daniel Solis has been doing all this stuff, 894 00:37:51,480 --> 00:37:55,815 just presenting himself as an expert creating 895 00:37:55,815 --> 00:37:57,740 a brand of himself. 896 00:37:57,740 --> 00:38:02,730 Actually, I brought him up to Hacks last year as an expert. 897 00:38:02,730 --> 00:38:07,290 He, about six months ago, ran a Kickstarter 898 00:38:07,290 --> 00:38:09,450 for Bell of the Ball. 899 00:38:09,450 --> 00:38:12,400 And he leveraged some of his connections. 900 00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:14,460 And the game itself is very good, 901 00:38:14,460 --> 00:38:17,020 but the Kickstarter was wildly successful. 902 00:38:17,020 --> 00:38:20,340 I think he got something like three times what 903 00:38:20,340 --> 00:38:24,490 he asked for just in terms of kick starting the game. 904 00:38:24,490 --> 00:38:28,170 And as a result, I believe, a lot of his connections 905 00:38:28,170 --> 00:38:30,560 and leveraging his brand as an expert. 906 00:38:30,560 --> 00:38:34,990 I think at some point, he's got 5,000 Twitter followers 907 00:38:34,990 --> 00:38:38,500 and decent blog presence. 908 00:38:38,500 --> 00:38:41,130 And as a result of having that before he 909 00:38:41,130 --> 00:38:46,390 launches a Kickstarter of starts to generate pre-sales 910 00:38:46,390 --> 00:38:50,230 for a board game, that he's going to do much better. 911 00:38:50,230 --> 00:38:52,300 And the effort that he puts into it 912 00:38:52,300 --> 00:38:55,260 is really just talking about board games, 913 00:38:55,260 --> 00:38:58,000 putting information for free online 914 00:38:58,000 --> 00:39:00,590 and establishing himself as someone who's an expert. 915 00:39:00,590 --> 00:39:03,470 AUDIENCE: So all of these crowd funding models, 916 00:39:03,470 --> 00:39:06,480 there is a little bit of precedence in a publisher 917 00:39:06,480 --> 00:39:09,040 [INAUDIBLE] groups like GMP. 918 00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:12,474 But for the most part, they're fairly recent developments. 919 00:39:12,474 --> 00:39:15,690 because we'll be willing to give money online. 920 00:39:15,690 --> 00:39:18,255 I'm assuming that your interactions [INAUDIBLE]. 921 00:39:20,920 --> 00:39:28,166 But what is this role of stores, especially hobby stores? 922 00:39:28,166 --> 00:39:32,200 MACKENZIE CAMERON: I do you also work at a games store Eureka! 923 00:39:32,200 --> 00:39:35,380 Puzzles down Brookline. 924 00:39:35,380 --> 00:39:39,230 And that's an interesting function as well. 925 00:39:39,230 --> 00:39:41,240 I do a little a little bit of research 926 00:39:41,240 --> 00:39:44,200 in general on retail stores, not just board game stores, 927 00:39:44,200 --> 00:39:46,830 but anywhere that sells things. 928 00:39:46,830 --> 00:39:50,330 It's taking a nosedive as an industry, which 929 00:39:50,330 --> 00:39:55,420 is hard to imagine just stores selling things as an industry. 930 00:39:55,420 --> 00:39:58,210 But idea is with the internet and [INAUDIBLE] 931 00:39:58,210 --> 00:40:00,980 like with Amazon Prime, oftentimes, 932 00:40:00,980 --> 00:40:02,890 you can find the same product online. 933 00:40:02,890 --> 00:40:07,420 And even with shipping, they can beat 934 00:40:07,420 --> 00:40:12,220 the price of any retail store, which is board games, 935 00:40:12,220 --> 00:40:14,870 war game retail outlets are pretty hard. 936 00:40:14,870 --> 00:40:17,411 Because you can go and hell, I work at Eureka! 937 00:40:17,411 --> 00:40:17,910 Puzzles. 938 00:40:17,910 --> 00:40:20,800 I get in and play discount, and it's still cheaper for me 939 00:40:20,800 --> 00:40:26,086 to go on Funagain Games and buy a game on that end. 940 00:40:26,086 --> 00:40:27,460 With shipping, it's still cheaper 941 00:40:27,460 --> 00:40:29,204 than what I pay at Eureka! 942 00:40:29,204 --> 00:40:31,840 Puzzles for a board game. 943 00:40:31,840 --> 00:40:33,880 As a result, a lot of retail outlets 944 00:40:33,880 --> 00:40:37,570 are starting to realize that if they're going to survive, 945 00:40:37,570 --> 00:40:42,370 they can't do it by trying to beat prices with online stores. 946 00:40:42,370 --> 00:40:43,780 GLENN GIVEN: I turned it down. 947 00:40:43,780 --> 00:40:45,560 MACKENZIE CAMERON: As a result, they're 948 00:40:45,560 --> 00:40:48,280 realizing that they're strength is that they 949 00:40:48,280 --> 00:40:51,322 have a physical presence. 950 00:40:51,322 --> 00:40:53,530 So their idea is that if they're going to charge more 951 00:40:53,530 --> 00:40:55,600 for board games that you can get online, 952 00:40:55,600 --> 00:40:58,187 they need to add value to that. 953 00:40:58,187 --> 00:40:59,770 GLENN GIVEN: They'll probably do stuff 954 00:40:59,770 --> 00:41:03,580 like the Knight Moves Cafe, where they're taking that. 955 00:41:03,580 --> 00:41:06,340 So the interesting thing about this-- 956 00:41:06,340 --> 00:41:09,250 well, one of the interesting things about this 957 00:41:09,250 --> 00:41:11,860 is comic books, right? 958 00:41:11,860 --> 00:41:14,629 So comic books, in the '90s were huge, 959 00:41:14,629 --> 00:41:16,170 and then they went through this bust, 960 00:41:16,170 --> 00:41:19,770 and the people who owned comic book stores started 961 00:41:19,770 --> 00:41:22,120 to see the margins on their products 962 00:41:22,120 --> 00:41:24,400 get shorter and shorter and shorter and less and less 963 00:41:24,400 --> 00:41:25,650 and less people buying comics. 964 00:41:25,650 --> 00:41:28,270 So it's a really dire situation. 965 00:41:28,270 --> 00:41:30,760 And in the past 10 years, it's become 966 00:41:30,760 --> 00:41:34,870 really easy to pirate comics online, but more so than that, 967 00:41:34,870 --> 00:41:38,650 there are apps for your phone or your iPad like comiXology 968 00:41:38,650 --> 00:41:41,290 or the Marvel app that actually do a really, really good job 969 00:41:41,290 --> 00:41:44,020 of presenting comics to you. 970 00:41:44,020 --> 00:41:45,760 My wife wouldn't read comics at all 971 00:41:45,760 --> 00:41:47,687 before just because sometimes people 972 00:41:47,687 --> 00:41:49,270 who don't really know how to do layout 973 00:41:49,270 --> 00:41:50,561 end up doing layout for comics. 974 00:41:50,561 --> 00:41:53,860 And so literally, it can be confusing to read 975 00:41:53,860 --> 00:41:56,620 just because they don't have artistic mastery of how 976 00:41:56,620 --> 00:41:59,840 to make someone's eye flow across the page. 977 00:41:59,840 --> 00:42:01,879 One of the things that comiXology app does 978 00:42:01,879 --> 00:42:03,670 is that you can just zoom in panel to panel 979 00:42:03,670 --> 00:42:06,735 to panel to panel to panel, and it's a surprising shift 980 00:42:06,735 --> 00:42:07,860 in the way you can read it. 981 00:42:07,860 --> 00:42:10,390 Anyway, the important thing is that comic stores were getting 982 00:42:10,390 --> 00:42:11,806 a lot less money, and so what they 983 00:42:11,806 --> 00:42:13,750 did is they took all their floor space 984 00:42:13,750 --> 00:42:16,600 and started to dive heavier into the parts of their business 985 00:42:16,600 --> 00:42:19,720 that were generating the money, which was board games and hobby 986 00:42:19,720 --> 00:42:20,860 games. 987 00:42:20,860 --> 00:42:23,620 And the ones that survived-- because a lot of them 988 00:42:23,620 --> 00:42:24,820 have gone out of business. 989 00:42:24,820 --> 00:42:28,322 The ones that survived tend to be really, really good. 990 00:42:28,322 --> 00:42:30,280 And the reason that they're really, really good 991 00:42:30,280 --> 00:42:31,988 is because they realized that they're not 992 00:42:31,988 --> 00:42:34,000 in the business of selling you comics. 993 00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:36,190 They're in the business of creating a community. 994 00:42:38,940 --> 00:42:42,520 I drive an hour to my comic store because I'm an idiot. 995 00:42:45,550 --> 00:42:47,930 I could just be buying them online. 996 00:42:47,930 --> 00:42:49,640 I drive an hour to my comic store 997 00:42:49,640 --> 00:42:53,720 because they have their good operators creating 998 00:42:53,720 --> 00:42:57,470 a good community for people to come together and talk 999 00:42:57,470 --> 00:42:58,730 about different projects. 1000 00:42:58,730 --> 00:43:00,320 They're always running events. 1001 00:43:00,320 --> 00:43:01,340 It's barely a store. 1002 00:43:01,340 --> 00:43:03,048 It's like a little mini convention that's 1003 00:43:03,048 --> 00:43:05,510 always slightly happening. 1004 00:43:05,510 --> 00:43:09,680 And so a large part of that is realizing we 1005 00:43:09,680 --> 00:43:12,230 can get people in this store for a longer period of time 1006 00:43:12,230 --> 00:43:14,310 if we're all playing games together, 1007 00:43:14,310 --> 00:43:16,836 if we're running card game tournaments and board game 1008 00:43:16,836 --> 00:43:17,336 tournaments. 1009 00:43:17,336 --> 00:43:18,961 MACKENZIE CAMERON: The interesting part 1010 00:43:18,961 --> 00:43:22,020 is how do we as designers take that? 1011 00:43:22,020 --> 00:43:23,680 What's their role to us? 1012 00:43:23,680 --> 00:43:25,880 And I mean, before it was definitely, 1013 00:43:25,880 --> 00:43:29,767 you could your game picked up by distributors or to a publisher 1014 00:43:29,767 --> 00:43:31,850 and a publisher gets picked up by his distributor. 1015 00:43:31,850 --> 00:43:34,640 And all of a sudden, you're not selling to a direct audience 1016 00:43:34,640 --> 00:43:35,140 online. 1017 00:43:35,140 --> 00:43:38,837 You're selling to hundreds of thousands 1018 00:43:38,837 --> 00:43:40,795 of little mom and pop stores across the nation, 1019 00:43:40,795 --> 00:43:42,205 the numbers are huge. 1020 00:43:42,205 --> 00:43:44,120 But now-- 1021 00:43:44,120 --> 00:43:46,810 GLENN GIVEN: You can still wind up making a lot less. 1022 00:43:46,810 --> 00:43:47,070 MACKENZIE CAMERON: True. 1023 00:43:47,070 --> 00:43:48,310 Because your margins are going to be-- 1024 00:43:48,310 --> 00:43:50,143 GLENN GIVEN: Because your margins are worse. 1025 00:43:50,143 --> 00:43:53,210 MACKENZIE CAMERON: But the part of the thing you can do now 1026 00:43:53,210 --> 00:43:55,940 is that board games can really help with the promotion 1027 00:43:55,940 --> 00:43:57,400 of your game. 1028 00:43:57,400 --> 00:43:58,190 I know Eureka! 1029 00:43:58,190 --> 00:44:00,950 Puzzles, Knight Moves are huge online. 1030 00:44:00,950 --> 00:44:03,366 If you've got a game that you want to show people 1031 00:44:03,366 --> 00:44:05,990 that you come and teach it to a bunch of people at their store, 1032 00:44:05,990 --> 00:44:10,550 they're happy to do that because on the one hand, 1033 00:44:10,550 --> 00:44:15,290 you're adding value to their store which they love and need. 1034 00:44:15,290 --> 00:44:17,480 So people will, like oh, your new puzzle. 1035 00:44:17,480 --> 00:44:19,840 They had one guy come in and that was really cool. 1036 00:44:19,840 --> 00:44:21,890 I learned how he made this game. 1037 00:44:21,890 --> 00:44:23,730 But then you're getting value out that, 1038 00:44:23,730 --> 00:44:25,990 and now people know about your game. 1039 00:44:25,990 --> 00:44:29,237 And then when a store buys games from you, 1040 00:44:29,237 --> 00:44:31,740 you still get maybe not necessarily 1041 00:44:31,740 --> 00:44:32,910 the margins you need, but-- 1042 00:44:32,910 --> 00:44:35,100 GLENN GIVEN: They're still a lot better. 1043 00:44:35,100 --> 00:44:39,140 So normally in traditional publishing, 1044 00:44:39,140 --> 00:44:42,300 if I was going to put out a board game 20 years ago, 1045 00:44:42,300 --> 00:44:44,780 15 years ago, I would have to find a distributor 1046 00:44:44,780 --> 00:44:47,210 like Alliance or Diamond or something, 1047 00:44:47,210 --> 00:44:51,590 and then I would sell my game to them for 20% of the MSRP, 1048 00:44:51,590 --> 00:44:54,260 which is the manufacturer's suggested retail price. 1049 00:44:54,260 --> 00:44:57,440 So if I had a game that was $25, I would sell it 1050 00:44:57,440 --> 00:45:03,800 to the distributor for $5, and then 1051 00:45:03,800 --> 00:45:06,595 he would turn around and sell it to a store for somewhere 1052 00:45:06,595 --> 00:45:11,604 in between that $5 and half the MSRP, and that's his cut. 1053 00:45:11,604 --> 00:45:13,520 And in between, there's all these other people 1054 00:45:13,520 --> 00:45:14,938 who are taking their cut and taking their cut 1055 00:45:14,938 --> 00:45:15,290 and taking their cut. 1056 00:45:15,290 --> 00:45:18,200 And the reason I've made jokes about the music industry model 1057 00:45:18,200 --> 00:45:20,650 from the '90s is because it's the same fucking model. 1058 00:45:20,650 --> 00:45:21,620 It's The same thing. 1059 00:45:21,620 --> 00:45:23,450 There are people who are creating stuff, 1060 00:45:23,450 --> 00:45:26,120 but because there is no really awesome way for them 1061 00:45:26,120 --> 00:45:28,667 to get it directly to the people who care about it, 1062 00:45:28,667 --> 00:45:30,500 they have to go through all these weird side 1063 00:45:30,500 --> 00:45:34,200 projects, side industries or middleman industries. 1064 00:45:34,200 --> 00:45:39,380 Only a few people who are tapped by very, very 1065 00:45:39,380 --> 00:45:44,000 powerful companies got to be famous in the '90s. 1066 00:45:44,000 --> 00:45:47,825 And then the internet came and destroyed all music, 1067 00:45:47,825 --> 00:45:49,700 even though music is making more than it ever 1068 00:45:49,700 --> 00:45:51,200 has and all these other things. 1069 00:45:51,200 --> 00:45:54,152 But what was rediscovered in that shift, 1070 00:45:54,152 --> 00:45:56,360 and this is something that's happening in board games 1071 00:45:56,360 --> 00:46:03,080 right now, is that people want the direct audience 1072 00:46:03,080 --> 00:46:05,150 to create a connection. 1073 00:46:05,150 --> 00:46:08,540 If you could spend $20 on a CD because they 1074 00:46:08,540 --> 00:46:14,570 used to be $20 or $20 on a ticket to go see a show, 1075 00:46:14,570 --> 00:46:16,700 of a band that you enjoy, even though you don't get 1076 00:46:16,700 --> 00:46:20,060 to keep that show forever, come on, 1077 00:46:20,060 --> 00:46:22,380 it's so much more enjoyable. 1078 00:46:22,380 --> 00:46:26,955 Because you could get that CD in a million different ways 1079 00:46:26,955 --> 00:46:29,360 from a million different locations. 1080 00:46:29,360 --> 00:46:31,640 It's really easy, but you're getting an experience 1081 00:46:31,640 --> 00:46:33,770 with the other thing. 1082 00:46:33,770 --> 00:46:36,917 And you're getting to know that you're directly supporting 1083 00:46:36,917 --> 00:46:39,500 the creator, which is something that a lot of audience members 1084 00:46:39,500 --> 00:46:40,820 are really invested in. 1085 00:46:40,820 --> 00:46:44,720 And as someone who is a creator, I'm very invested in that. 1086 00:46:44,720 --> 00:46:46,790 But also it's financially beneficial. 1087 00:46:46,790 --> 00:46:53,840 So for me, for instance, I can make a short-run print product 1088 00:46:53,840 --> 00:47:00,260 for $3 and sell it for $20 and then cook the mailing price 1089 00:47:00,260 --> 00:47:01,460 into that and get some-- 1090 00:47:01,460 --> 00:47:04,130 I've actually made a reasonably good profit on it. 1091 00:47:04,130 --> 00:47:06,860 But if I make it for $3 and want to sell for $20, 1092 00:47:06,860 --> 00:47:10,760 I end up having to sell it to a distributor still 1093 00:47:10,760 --> 00:47:12,560 for like $4 or $5. 1094 00:47:12,560 --> 00:47:15,050 And then in order for it to be worth my time, 1095 00:47:15,050 --> 00:47:16,800 I really need to make a whole lot of them. 1096 00:47:16,800 --> 00:47:19,520 And the distributors probably only want it 1097 00:47:19,520 --> 00:47:21,060 if I can make a whole lot of them. 1098 00:47:21,060 --> 00:47:22,476 So now I've got find a way to make 1099 00:47:22,476 --> 00:47:25,430 1,000 of this thing, which, in board games, 1100 00:47:25,430 --> 00:47:27,870 is a ridiculous number of game to have. 1101 00:47:30,740 --> 00:47:32,034 Unbelievably large number. 1102 00:47:32,034 --> 00:47:33,950 But unfortunately, you can't get it affordable 1103 00:47:33,950 --> 00:47:35,260 unless it's above that number. 1104 00:47:35,260 --> 00:47:35,660 MACKENZIE CAMERON: Right. 1105 00:47:35,660 --> 00:47:37,570 And that's the front end of financing too. 1106 00:47:37,570 --> 00:47:40,480 But if you think about Bell Publishing and stuff, OK, 1107 00:47:40,480 --> 00:47:42,052 to make it, I'll need 1,000 copies. 1108 00:47:42,052 --> 00:47:43,760 And you'll be able to get a decent budget 1109 00:47:43,760 --> 00:47:44,771 and figure out how to use it. 1110 00:47:44,771 --> 00:47:44,852 All right. 1111 00:47:44,852 --> 00:47:45,675 That's fine. 1112 00:47:45,675 --> 00:47:47,383 But then when you do things like, OK, I'm 1113 00:47:47,383 --> 00:47:50,780 just going to keep these in my house until I sell them all, 1114 00:47:50,780 --> 00:47:54,570 you don't realize how much space 1,000 board games takes up 1115 00:47:54,570 --> 00:47:55,690 until you see it. 1116 00:47:55,690 --> 00:47:57,065 GLENN GIVEN: Oh, actually, I have 1117 00:47:57,065 --> 00:48:01,780 a video because I have 2,500 in my garage right now. 1118 00:48:01,780 --> 00:48:04,130 And it takes up exactly a car's worth. 1119 00:48:06,974 --> 00:48:08,870 MACKENZIE CAMERON: You have $2,500? 1120 00:48:08,870 --> 00:48:10,250 GLENN GIVEN: 2,500 copies-- 1121 00:48:10,250 --> 00:48:11,490 25,000. 1122 00:48:11,490 --> 00:48:12,570 [LAUGHTER] 1123 00:48:12,570 --> 00:48:14,410 MACKENZIE CAMERON: It's a card game? 1124 00:48:14,410 --> 00:48:15,800 GLENN GIVEN: It's a card game. 1125 00:48:15,800 --> 00:48:20,555 It is this card game. 1126 00:48:20,555 --> 00:48:24,300 And I've got 2,500 of them in my garage 1127 00:48:24,300 --> 00:48:26,720 and then some more of them down at the port [INAUDIBLE]. 1128 00:48:26,720 --> 00:48:28,549 MACKENZIE CAMERON: We should bring up-- 1129 00:48:28,549 --> 00:48:29,840 I don't think you ever said it. 1130 00:48:29,840 --> 00:48:33,754 There is some benefit to going through traditional publishing. 1131 00:48:33,754 --> 00:48:35,420 GLENN GIVEN: It's right for some people. 1132 00:48:35,420 --> 00:48:36,420 It's not right for-- 1133 00:48:36,420 --> 00:48:37,878 MACKENZIE CAMERON: And the reason I 1134 00:48:37,878 --> 00:48:40,570 would suggest that is if you get a really good game idea 1135 00:48:40,570 --> 00:48:44,720 and you pitch it to a publisher and they really like it, 1136 00:48:44,720 --> 00:48:46,430 there's so much more to that than just 1137 00:48:46,430 --> 00:48:47,580 being like take this game. 1138 00:48:47,580 --> 00:48:48,530 You love your game. 1139 00:48:48,530 --> 00:48:49,370 Well, take it. 1140 00:48:49,370 --> 00:48:50,708 GLENN GIVEN: And here's money. 1141 00:48:50,708 --> 00:48:51,604 Forever. 1142 00:48:51,604 --> 00:48:53,290 MACKENZIE CAMERON: If you create an idea 1143 00:48:53,290 --> 00:48:56,587 and you sell it to a publisher, you're done. 1144 00:48:56,587 --> 00:48:58,420 GLENN GIVEN: And it's not your idea anymore. 1145 00:48:58,420 --> 00:49:00,503 MACKENZIE CAMERON: And it's not your idea anymore. 1146 00:49:00,503 --> 00:49:05,090 But all of a sudden, with self-publishing, I mean, 1147 00:49:05,090 --> 00:49:08,540 the amount of effort to make a game fly is huge. 1148 00:49:08,540 --> 00:49:11,060 It's massive, especially if you're doing it on your own. 1149 00:49:11,060 --> 00:49:13,830 But if you sell it to a publisher, 1150 00:49:13,830 --> 00:49:15,560 you're not going to make as much money, 1151 00:49:15,560 --> 00:49:18,626 but there comes a point where you're not doing anything 1152 00:49:18,626 --> 00:49:20,000 and you're still getting paid it. 1153 00:49:20,000 --> 00:49:20,750 GLENN GIVEN: Yeah. 1154 00:49:20,750 --> 00:49:22,850 100% of a small number or 5% of a big number. 1155 00:49:22,850 --> 00:49:23,910 MACKENZIE CAMERON: Yeah. 1156 00:49:23,910 --> 00:49:30,120 GLENN GIVEN: And it's a question of what are you in it for? 1157 00:49:30,120 --> 00:49:33,500 And what does your time look like? 1158 00:49:33,500 --> 00:49:37,610 For me, I make games and I chose to leave 1159 00:49:37,610 --> 00:49:39,800 a life that was not making me happy 1160 00:49:39,800 --> 00:49:43,280 but was making me lots of money for a life that is making me 1161 00:49:43,280 --> 00:49:47,652 significantly less money but is making me really happy, 1162 00:49:47,652 --> 00:49:49,610 because I get to create things and they're fun. 1163 00:49:49,610 --> 00:49:51,901 MACKENZIE CAMERON: You seem like a really happy person. 1164 00:49:51,901 --> 00:49:53,330 GLENN GIVEN: It's the medication. 1165 00:49:56,200 --> 00:49:59,810 Also, I don't work in an office so well. 1166 00:49:59,810 --> 00:50:06,890 So it fulfills that artistic or productive drive. 1167 00:50:06,890 --> 00:50:11,390 And that's not something to be ignored. 1168 00:50:11,390 --> 00:50:11,890 Total up. 1169 00:50:11,890 --> 00:50:14,054 [INAUDIBLE] 1170 00:50:14,054 --> 00:50:15,470 MACKENZIE CAMERON: The major point 1171 00:50:15,470 --> 00:50:18,200 is that it is you want to make your career making games, 1172 00:50:18,200 --> 00:50:20,390 do yourself and you're really big. 1173 00:50:20,390 --> 00:50:24,230 If you want to put a few games out there and do 1174 00:50:24,230 --> 00:50:27,800 a lot of other things with your life, 1175 00:50:27,800 --> 00:50:29,930 like once a month sending out all of your games 1176 00:50:29,930 --> 00:50:34,265 to every publisher you've got email for, 1177 00:50:34,265 --> 00:50:35,765 you don't have to make it your life. 1178 00:50:35,765 --> 00:50:36,470 GLENN GIVEN: Yeah. 1179 00:50:36,470 --> 00:50:38,303 It's like if you were going to start a band, 1180 00:50:38,303 --> 00:50:43,220 is the band your life, or is it what you do for fun 1181 00:50:43,220 --> 00:50:45,590 with some of your friends? 1182 00:50:45,590 --> 00:50:48,139 Neither is an illegitimate way of doing it. 1183 00:50:48,139 --> 00:50:49,805 They're just right for different people. 1184 00:50:49,805 --> 00:50:51,554 PROFESSOR: We have more than five minutes. 1185 00:50:51,554 --> 00:50:52,400 So one question. 1186 00:50:52,400 --> 00:50:54,354 MACKENZIE CAMERON: Really? 1187 00:50:54,354 --> 00:50:56,340 We've have time for two hours? 1188 00:50:56,340 --> 00:50:57,627 GLENN GIVEN: I can do that. 1189 00:50:57,627 --> 00:50:58,760 AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE]. 1190 00:51:04,890 --> 00:51:08,470 Self publishing is undertaking that [INAUDIBLE]. 1191 00:51:12,410 --> 00:51:14,540 Learning curve, so to speak. 1192 00:51:14,540 --> 00:51:17,850 And you guys have your fingers on the pulse of the community, 1193 00:51:17,850 --> 00:51:20,052 and you know what uP and coming designers 1194 00:51:20,052 --> 00:51:23,796 have and the skill sets. 1195 00:51:23,796 --> 00:51:29,146 Have you considered publishing other people's games? 1196 00:51:29,146 --> 00:51:31,530 GLENN GIVEN: I have considered it, 1197 00:51:31,530 --> 00:51:35,280 and I've been approached to do it, but I've said no to it. 1198 00:51:35,280 --> 00:51:38,520 Because I worked in publishing for a long time, 1199 00:51:38,520 --> 00:51:42,780 and I am ideologically opposed to that model. 1200 00:51:42,780 --> 00:51:44,310 That being said, one of the things 1201 00:51:44,310 --> 00:51:48,060 that I do I do this on a consulting basis 1202 00:51:48,060 --> 00:51:53,550 and I also do this just through our website and the fact 1203 00:51:53,550 --> 00:51:55,610 that all games are Creative Commons licensed 1204 00:51:55,610 --> 00:51:56,990 and the whole process-- 1205 00:51:56,990 --> 00:51:58,370 Frank, can you turn that down? 1206 00:51:58,370 --> 00:51:59,970 --is teach people how to do it. 1207 00:51:59,970 --> 00:52:02,160 Because it is an undertaking but it's 1208 00:52:02,160 --> 00:52:03,910 nowhere near as hard as you would think. 1209 00:52:07,200 --> 00:52:10,170 The kind of effort you would put into studying for a class 1210 00:52:10,170 --> 00:52:13,680 is the kind of effort you need to put into figure out how 1211 00:52:13,680 --> 00:52:18,810 to deal with Amazon fulfillment services, 1212 00:52:18,810 --> 00:52:24,690 or what does it take to, oh, god, figuring out shipping. 1213 00:52:24,690 --> 00:52:27,840 If you ever start at Kickstarter for anything, 1214 00:52:27,840 --> 00:52:29,700 figure out the damn shipping. 1215 00:52:29,700 --> 00:52:31,140 That will kill you. 1216 00:52:31,140 --> 00:52:35,580 I had a friend of mine who made this really cool game called 1217 00:52:35,580 --> 00:52:37,800 Mobile Frame Zero, Rapid Attack, which 1218 00:52:37,800 --> 00:52:42,394 is a robot fighting game where you make LEGO robots. 1219 00:52:42,394 --> 00:52:43,650 MACKENZIE CAMERON: Oh, yeah. 1220 00:52:43,650 --> 00:52:44,610 It's on [INAUDIBLE]. 1221 00:52:44,610 --> 00:52:45,360 GLENN GIVEN: Yeah. 1222 00:52:45,360 --> 00:52:46,890 So they're doing-- and some of it's 1223 00:52:46,890 --> 00:52:48,860 new on this weekend, which is like a rockets 1224 00:52:48,860 --> 00:52:49,776 in space or something. 1225 00:52:49,776 --> 00:52:54,150 Anyway, he raised $85,000 on Kickstarter 1226 00:52:54,150 --> 00:52:57,190 to publish what was just a book and mail it to people. 1227 00:52:57,190 --> 00:52:59,437 But because he had not-- and he's a smart person-- 1228 00:52:59,437 --> 00:53:01,520 because he had not figured out the shipping costs, 1229 00:53:01,520 --> 00:53:05,419 he ended up $25,000 in the hole. 1230 00:53:05,419 --> 00:53:07,710 Yeah, because you didn't go to the United States Postal 1231 00:53:07,710 --> 00:53:10,950 Service and go, what are your rates? 1232 00:53:10,950 --> 00:53:14,160 MACKENZIE CAMERON: So $85,000 and it cost him 1233 00:53:14,160 --> 00:53:15,810 roughly $100,000 just to make it. 1234 00:53:15,810 --> 00:53:21,610 GLENN GIVEN: So that is what a publisher does for you. 1235 00:53:21,610 --> 00:53:24,180 They figure don't even frigging worry about it. 1236 00:53:24,180 --> 00:53:26,970 We're take 90% of whatever this game makes, 1237 00:53:26,970 --> 00:53:29,590 95% of whatever this game makes, but you 1238 00:53:29,590 --> 00:53:31,650 don't have to worry about any of that crap. 1239 00:53:31,650 --> 00:53:33,234 And so for some people that's really-- 1240 00:53:33,234 --> 00:53:34,858 MACKENZIE CAMERON: What you're actually 1241 00:53:34,858 --> 00:53:37,425 finding a lot is that there's tons of small publishers 1242 00:53:37,425 --> 00:53:38,800 and these are actually starting-- 1243 00:53:38,800 --> 00:53:41,580 I mean, Game Salute is one, Mayday Game, 1244 00:53:41,580 --> 00:53:42,830 I don't like that one as much. 1245 00:53:42,830 --> 00:53:43,910 Anyway, Mayday, they do-- 1246 00:53:43,910 --> 00:53:45,160 GLENN GIVEN: Like my neighbor. 1247 00:53:45,160 --> 00:53:46,110 MACKENZIE CAMERON: [INAUDIBLE], which 1248 00:53:46,110 --> 00:53:47,640 you might have seen on TV Cops. 1249 00:53:47,640 --> 00:53:48,830 GLENN GIVEN: Yeah, that's Dave Chalker. 1250 00:53:48,830 --> 00:53:49,420 MACKENZIE CAMERON: Yeah. 1251 00:53:49,420 --> 00:53:50,560 GLENN GIVEN: Yeah, he's a really good guy. 1252 00:53:50,560 --> 00:53:52,476 MACKENZIE CAMERON: But lots of small companies 1253 00:53:52,476 --> 00:53:53,550 that-- it was a designer. 1254 00:53:53,550 --> 00:53:54,390 He had one games. 1255 00:53:54,390 --> 00:53:56,620 He's like I'm going to do it myself and try and make 1256 00:53:56,620 --> 00:53:57,140 this work. 1257 00:53:57,140 --> 00:53:58,409 [INAUDIBLE] was another one. 1258 00:53:58,409 --> 00:53:59,700 There's a lot of these little-- 1259 00:53:59,700 --> 00:54:02,010 GLENN GIVEN: [INAUDIBLE] Games just started like that. 1260 00:54:02,010 --> 00:54:04,659 Now they have whole conventions [INAUDIBLE]. 1261 00:54:04,659 --> 00:54:06,450 MACKENZIE CAMERON: They start with an idea, 1262 00:54:06,450 --> 00:54:08,940 they do it themselves, and hey, it works out. 1263 00:54:08,940 --> 00:54:10,380 And then from there, they realize, 1264 00:54:10,380 --> 00:54:11,820 hey, we should do a lot more of these 1265 00:54:11,820 --> 00:54:14,319 because that was successful, and if we're successfuyl at it, 1266 00:54:14,319 --> 00:54:15,440 we can make it work. 1267 00:54:15,440 --> 00:54:19,305 And after the one designer takes and build the company. 1268 00:54:19,305 --> 00:54:21,720 It becomes three or four people, and it 1269 00:54:21,720 --> 00:54:25,110 becomes mildly successful, and they push out all the games 1270 00:54:25,110 --> 00:54:26,801 that they've felt they can. 1271 00:54:26,801 --> 00:54:28,800 I made all the games that I want to setting out. 1272 00:54:28,800 --> 00:54:30,890 GLENN GIVEN: Or they've used all their hours in the day 1273 00:54:30,890 --> 00:54:32,310 and they just can't do it anymore. 1274 00:54:32,310 --> 00:54:36,282 MACKENZIE CAMERON: Well then once that happens, 1275 00:54:36,282 --> 00:54:37,740 a lot of publishers will then start 1276 00:54:37,740 --> 00:54:40,190 to look for other designers and publish their games. 1277 00:54:40,190 --> 00:54:43,720 Because you're designing your games, 1278 00:54:43,720 --> 00:54:46,920 you've got your A idea, your B idea, and your C idea. 1279 00:54:46,920 --> 00:54:48,204 these are all great. 1280 00:54:48,204 --> 00:54:49,620 And once you publish all of those, 1281 00:54:49,620 --> 00:54:51,480 you start to realize maybe those other ideas 1282 00:54:51,480 --> 00:54:54,290 that you have are good, but maybe you'd 1283 00:54:54,290 --> 00:54:58,440 be more successful if you could pick out some other ideas 1284 00:54:58,440 --> 00:54:59,960 that other people submitted to you. 1285 00:54:59,960 --> 00:55:02,085 Really, that's actually better than what I would do myself. 1286 00:55:02,085 --> 00:55:04,293 GLENN GIVEN: Or maybe a lot of times what will happen 1287 00:55:04,293 --> 00:55:07,134 is as a designer you do have a lot of ideas 1288 00:55:07,134 --> 00:55:08,550 and if you're a smart [INAUDIBLE], 1289 00:55:08,550 --> 00:55:11,990 you realize that most of them are probably not good. 1290 00:55:11,990 --> 00:55:13,950 But that's fine. 1291 00:55:13,950 --> 00:55:15,900 That's absolutely fine. 1292 00:55:15,900 --> 00:55:18,240 Nothing springs forth from someone's head 1293 00:55:18,240 --> 00:55:20,310 like Athena perfectly formed. 1294 00:55:20,310 --> 00:55:22,170 That is not how things are made. 1295 00:55:24,730 --> 00:55:27,890 All of your favorite musicians practiced forever 1296 00:55:27,890 --> 00:55:29,910 to get really good. 1297 00:55:29,910 --> 00:55:31,125 It's just the way it is. 1298 00:55:31,125 --> 00:55:32,625 In game design, it's the same thing. 1299 00:55:32,625 --> 00:55:33,940 You have to make a lot of really crap. 1300 00:55:33,940 --> 00:55:35,730 There's a really good phrase about writing 1301 00:55:35,730 --> 00:55:39,139 which is that every writer has 2,000 bad pages in them, 1302 00:55:39,139 --> 00:55:41,430 and the good writers are the ones who got the 2,000 out 1303 00:55:41,430 --> 00:55:42,910 somewhere else. 1304 00:55:42,910 --> 00:55:45,190 So you've got to keep that in mind. 1305 00:55:45,190 --> 00:55:53,010 But I think that the ability to find publishers is not 1306 00:55:53,010 --> 00:55:55,230 diminishing, but the ability to self-publish 1307 00:55:55,230 --> 00:55:57,360 is rising, especially, although we have 1308 00:55:57,360 --> 00:56:02,190 great self-publishing tools now and the internet is really 1309 00:56:02,190 --> 00:56:05,970 good for sharing things, the biggest thing that's 1310 00:56:05,970 --> 00:56:08,070 happened in the past year and going into this year 1311 00:56:08,070 --> 00:56:10,950 is 3D printing. 1312 00:56:10,950 --> 00:56:16,230 So while we've hit the head into what self-publishing is, 1313 00:56:16,230 --> 00:56:20,370 we're just beginning to see what desktop manufacturing is, 1314 00:56:20,370 --> 00:56:25,410 like people who are just running their own little factories 1315 00:56:25,410 --> 00:56:27,295 in their houses, which is super cool. 1316 00:56:27,295 --> 00:56:29,420 MACKENZIE CAMERON: Actually doing that for my game. 1317 00:56:29,420 --> 00:56:30,340 GLENN GIVEN: Yeah. 1318 00:56:30,340 --> 00:56:31,340 That's so cool. 1319 00:56:31,340 --> 00:56:33,790 I really want to do that so much. 1320 00:56:33,790 --> 00:56:36,170 MACKENZIE CAMERON: I think we have time for a question. 1321 00:56:36,170 --> 00:56:37,164 AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE]? 1322 00:56:39,995 --> 00:56:42,124 GLENN GIVEN: It depends on the scale. 1323 00:56:42,124 --> 00:56:43,040 AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE]? 1324 00:56:43,040 --> 00:56:43,748 GLENN GIVEN: Yes. 1325 00:56:43,748 --> 00:56:44,960 This was printed in China. 1326 00:56:44,960 --> 00:56:46,418 Like I said, just got off the boat. 1327 00:56:48,830 --> 00:56:54,792 So I worked with a printer on this 1328 00:56:54,792 --> 00:56:56,750 because I've been doing printing and publishing 1329 00:56:56,750 --> 00:57:00,339 for so long, I know the jargon and know the lingo. 1330 00:57:00,339 --> 00:57:01,880 Again, another thing that a publisher 1331 00:57:01,880 --> 00:57:04,790 can be really good for is that you 1332 00:57:04,790 --> 00:57:08,340 don't need to study to figure out all of the things. 1333 00:57:08,340 --> 00:57:10,615 They have made all those mistakes in the past for you. 1334 00:57:10,615 --> 00:57:11,990 MACKENZIE CAMERON: You don't need 1335 00:57:11,990 --> 00:57:14,750 to screw up your bleed lines, your print cards 1336 00:57:14,750 --> 00:57:16,385 and all of the-- they're all offset. 1337 00:57:16,385 --> 00:57:17,720 GLENN GIVEN: If you've got the expertise 1338 00:57:17,720 --> 00:57:19,204 or you can organize the expertise 1339 00:57:19,204 --> 00:57:21,620 amongst the people you know, you can get past a lot of it. 1340 00:57:21,620 --> 00:57:24,830 But think about it, everyone who's 1341 00:57:24,830 --> 00:57:27,320 printing stuff or making things, they 1342 00:57:27,320 --> 00:57:30,740 want you to use their services. 1343 00:57:30,740 --> 00:57:32,540 Because they are a service industry, 1344 00:57:32,540 --> 00:57:34,635 they're going to make it as easy as possible. 1345 00:57:34,635 --> 00:57:36,260 And if they don't make it easy, there's 1346 00:57:36,260 --> 00:57:39,260 someone like four blocks down that 1347 00:57:39,260 --> 00:57:43,350 is probably going to do it because yay, capitalism. 1348 00:57:43,350 --> 00:57:45,890 There is, I think, god, one [INAUDIBLE]. 1349 00:57:45,890 --> 00:57:48,550 AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE] like buy a printer? 1350 00:57:48,550 --> 00:57:49,720 GLENN GIVEN: No, it is. 1351 00:57:49,720 --> 00:57:52,010 It's actually a huge expense to buy a printer. 1352 00:57:52,010 --> 00:57:54,140 The problem with printers is that they're super 1353 00:57:54,140 --> 00:57:56,770 expensive to have and not use. 1354 00:57:56,770 --> 00:57:59,314 AUDIENCE: It's better to have a team run it. 1355 00:57:59,314 --> 00:58:00,230 GLENN GIVEN: Oh, yeah. 1356 00:58:00,230 --> 00:58:03,380 You want that machine running losing money 1357 00:58:03,380 --> 00:58:05,900 because you'll lose less money than if it 1358 00:58:05,900 --> 00:58:08,340 wasn't running at all. 1359 00:58:08,340 --> 00:58:10,280 MACKENZIE CAMERON: There are a decent number 1360 00:58:10,280 --> 00:58:12,500 of American manufacturers, certainly 1361 00:58:12,500 --> 00:58:14,606 for prototype-level materials. 1362 00:58:14,606 --> 00:58:16,730 GLENN GIVEN: And in Massachusetts, like [INAUDIBLE] 1363 00:58:16,730 --> 00:58:17,702 of Massachusetts. 1364 00:58:17,702 --> 00:58:19,660 MACKENZIE CAMERON: Specifically, Massachusetts, 1365 00:58:19,660 --> 00:58:22,910 there's a lot of stuff. 1366 00:58:22,910 --> 00:58:24,950 I would say from what effort, nothing 1367 00:58:24,950 --> 00:58:28,005 will beat China in terms of cost. 1368 00:58:28,005 --> 00:58:32,510 GLENN GIVEN: It depends on the exact scope of your project 1369 00:58:32,510 --> 00:58:35,360 and the number of units that you're doing. 1370 00:58:35,360 --> 00:58:40,220 So if you're doing a few units of a very complicated thing, 1371 00:58:40,220 --> 00:58:43,460 you could actually probably get good prices in America. 1372 00:58:43,460 --> 00:58:46,680 If you're doing a lot of units of something relatively simple, 1373 00:58:46,680 --> 00:58:47,270 you're right. 1374 00:58:47,270 --> 00:58:48,020 You can't beat it. 1375 00:58:48,020 --> 00:58:49,061 MACKENZIE CAMERON: Right. 1376 00:58:49,061 --> 00:58:51,490 And then oftentimes, some people will do piece mail 1377 00:58:51,490 --> 00:58:53,323 so they'll get some printers for some things 1378 00:58:53,323 --> 00:58:54,630 like the boxes, the rule books. 1379 00:58:54,630 --> 00:58:57,230 And you can pull that together, and that can be a nightmare. 1380 00:58:57,230 --> 00:58:58,960 GLENN GIVEN: It can be. 1381 00:58:58,960 --> 00:59:02,510 But there are specifically services that you can hire. 1382 00:59:02,510 --> 00:59:05,240 They're called pick and pack warehouses 1383 00:59:05,240 --> 00:59:06,680 where let's say I had a board game 1384 00:59:06,680 --> 00:59:09,260 and it had components coming from the four 1385 00:59:09,260 --> 00:59:10,702 corners of the earth. 1386 00:59:10,702 --> 00:59:12,410 I could get them all shipped to one place 1387 00:59:12,410 --> 00:59:15,140 and then pay a person a quarter per unit to pack it 1388 00:59:15,140 --> 00:59:17,210 all together and whatever. 1389 00:59:17,210 --> 00:59:20,600 And if I filled out my spreadsheet correctly, 1390 00:59:20,600 --> 00:59:24,691 I will realize whether that is a financially viable thing 1391 00:59:24,691 --> 00:59:25,190 or not. 1392 00:59:27,870 --> 00:59:31,100 So one of the things that I like about self-manufacturing 1393 00:59:31,100 --> 00:59:33,680 is that I can figure that stuff out as I'm doing it. 1394 00:59:33,680 --> 00:59:37,388 So for instance, on early prototypes of Slash, 1395 00:59:37,388 --> 00:59:40,490 I was printing all the cards and cutting all the cards 1396 00:59:40,490 --> 00:59:44,020 and killing myself because it's a lot of cards to cut. 1397 00:59:44,020 --> 00:59:46,816 And so it digs back into the design. 1398 00:59:46,816 --> 00:59:48,440 Well, if I change the size of the card, 1399 00:59:48,440 --> 00:59:49,940 I can use this machine to cut it, 1400 00:59:49,940 --> 00:59:53,109 and it's going to save me a half hour on every single unit. 1401 00:59:53,109 --> 00:59:55,150 MACKENZIE CAMERON: And that's a whole other thing 1402 00:59:55,150 --> 00:59:56,585 is design around like-- 1403 00:59:56,585 --> 00:59:58,210 GLENN GIVEN: Your typical capabilities. 1404 00:59:58,210 --> 01:00:00,043 MACKENZIE CAMERON: Which you'll actually see 1405 01:00:00,043 --> 01:00:02,636 the rise of super small games. 1406 01:00:02,636 --> 01:00:03,969 GLENN GIVEN: Micro games. 1407 01:00:03,969 --> 01:00:05,510 Because they take a lot less to make. 1408 01:00:05,510 --> 01:00:06,510 MACKENZIE CAMERON: Yeah. 1409 01:00:06,510 --> 01:00:09,270 The biggest game you can create using 10 wooden chips 1410 01:00:09,270 --> 01:00:12,430 and miniature dice and fit into a package about this big. 1411 01:00:12,430 --> 01:00:16,209 GLENN GIVEN: So there's that threshold. 1412 01:00:16,209 --> 01:00:17,750 So one of the things I have with this 1413 01:00:17,750 --> 01:00:21,560 is that when you do printing, you usually have one big, 1414 01:00:21,560 --> 01:00:23,480 let's say for cards, one big piece of paper 1415 01:00:23,480 --> 01:00:26,063 with a bunch of different cards on it then you cut it all out. 1416 01:00:26,063 --> 01:00:28,820 Now, if I'm making 24 copies of the game, 1417 01:00:28,820 --> 01:00:31,190 it just so happens that I can fit 24 cards 1418 01:00:31,190 --> 01:00:37,089 on one sheet of paper, which means instead of printing card 1419 01:00:37,089 --> 01:00:39,380 A, B, C, D, E F, G, H, I, J, K, L, M, N, O, P, Q, R, S, 1420 01:00:39,380 --> 01:00:41,796 whatever on that one page and then cutting it out and then 1421 01:00:41,796 --> 01:00:45,710 sorting it, I can print A 24 times 1422 01:00:45,710 --> 01:00:48,980 and then do that 400 times in a row, stack them all together, 1423 01:00:48,980 --> 01:00:51,396 chop it, chop it, chop it, chop it, chop it, chop it, chop 1424 01:00:51,396 --> 01:00:52,850 it, chop it, chop it, and I don't 1425 01:00:52,850 --> 01:00:55,010 have to sort me thing anymore. 1426 01:00:55,010 --> 01:00:58,970 I have cut hours off of that pick and pack time. 1427 01:00:58,970 --> 01:01:01,490 And now multiply by the number that I just got out of it. 1428 01:01:01,490 --> 01:01:04,790 Instead of making one game every half hour, 1429 01:01:04,790 --> 01:01:08,022 I'm making 12 games every 15 minutes or something. 1430 01:01:08,022 --> 01:01:09,980 MACKENZIE CAMERON: I just want to go back again 1431 01:01:09,980 --> 01:01:13,000 to the China versus the States as well as I'm 1432 01:01:13,000 --> 01:01:15,130 finding a lot of kickstarters. 1433 01:01:15,130 --> 01:01:19,850 Realize that the margins they need for small amounts, 1434 01:01:19,850 --> 01:01:23,992 they have to go to China if they're going to break even. 1435 01:01:23,992 --> 01:01:26,720 But if they exceed goals or go much 1436 01:01:26,720 --> 01:01:28,980 and they can do larger quantities produced 1437 01:01:28,980 --> 01:01:31,230 in the States, then they use the same margins. 1438 01:01:31,230 --> 01:01:35,020 So a lot of people will, if they can get a game big enough, 1439 01:01:35,020 --> 01:01:38,950 will try and have a stretch goal, 1440 01:01:38,950 --> 01:01:41,220 bring games to the United States if they 1441 01:01:41,220 --> 01:01:43,030 can sell enough of them. 1442 01:01:43,030 --> 01:01:47,460 GLENN GIVEN: This is a challenge that is unique to analog games, 1443 01:01:47,460 --> 01:01:48,099 obviously. 1444 01:01:48,099 --> 01:01:50,640 You don't need to worry about where you're getting your cards 1445 01:01:50,640 --> 01:01:53,340 cut, I guess unless you're making 1446 01:01:53,340 --> 01:01:54,620 some kind of Pokemon AR game. 1447 01:01:54,620 --> 01:01:55,860 That would be super cool. 1448 01:01:58,354 --> 01:01:59,270 How do they have that? 1449 01:01:59,270 --> 01:02:02,850 They've got to have that, right? 1450 01:02:02,850 --> 01:02:04,860 Do they actually interact with each other? 1451 01:02:04,860 --> 01:02:05,360 They should. 1452 01:02:05,360 --> 01:02:07,440 Because last year they did a kickstarter 1453 01:02:07,440 --> 01:02:11,400 for Goal Marcana, which is like an app and a miniatures war 1454 01:02:11,400 --> 01:02:14,220 games where your dude has a QR code on it, 1455 01:02:14,220 --> 01:02:17,473 and then it uses the app to do all the combat. 1456 01:02:17,473 --> 01:02:20,310 AUDIENCE: There's a [INAUDIBLE] tradition of Japanese arcade 1457 01:02:20,310 --> 01:02:22,126 games that reads cards probability. 1458 01:02:22,126 --> 01:02:23,000 GLENN GIVEN: Oh, god. 1459 01:02:23,000 --> 01:02:23,790 I remember that. 1460 01:02:23,790 --> 01:02:27,076 MACKENZIE CAMERON: Mario Kart of our games, I've got one. 1461 01:02:27,076 --> 01:02:28,024 That's great. 1462 01:02:28,024 --> 01:02:32,290 PROFESSOR: [INAUDIBLE] 1463 01:02:32,290 --> 01:02:33,712 AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE]? 1464 01:02:33,712 --> 01:02:34,510 PROFESSOR: Yeah. 1465 01:02:34,510 --> 01:02:35,009 [INAUDIBLE] 1466 01:02:35,009 --> 01:02:36,137 We're going to play until. 1467 01:02:36,137 --> 01:02:38,999 Thanks for coming. 1468 01:02:38,999 --> 01:02:40,430 One second. 1469 01:02:40,430 --> 01:02:42,815 Thanks again for everybody. 1470 01:02:45,690 --> 01:02:47,960 So we're going to spend the last two hours of class. 1471 01:02:47,960 --> 01:02:49,959 Well, first we're going to have to take a break, 1472 01:02:49,959 --> 01:02:51,502 check in with y'all. 1473 01:02:51,502 --> 01:02:53,000 Did you do that already with games? 1474 01:02:53,000 --> 01:02:56,290 We'll check in with y'all to see how you've formed into teams 1475 01:02:56,290 --> 01:02:57,730 yet for that project. 1476 01:02:57,730 --> 01:02:59,825 And then we're going to be playing-- 1477 01:02:59,825 --> 01:03:01,810 do you have a couple of your games? 1478 01:03:01,810 --> 01:03:04,076 GLENN GIVEN: I brought I think eight different games 1479 01:03:04,076 --> 01:03:04,700 that I've made. 1480 01:03:04,700 --> 01:03:05,706 PROFESSOR: Well, great. 1481 01:03:05,706 --> 01:03:06,880 So we're going to play some of those games, 1482 01:03:06,880 --> 01:03:08,830 and we're all going to play, we've 1483 01:03:08,830 --> 01:03:12,146 got three games that are related to the assignment 1484 01:03:12,146 --> 01:03:13,370 that we've talked about. 1485 01:03:13,370 --> 01:03:15,370 MACKENZIE CAMERON: Also if anyone is interested, 1486 01:03:15,370 --> 01:03:17,995 I'm going to go ahead and leave some of business cards up here. 1487 01:03:17,995 --> 01:03:20,226 As I go through the process of making 1488 01:03:20,226 --> 01:03:22,400 my game through Kickstarter, I'm basically 1489 01:03:22,400 --> 01:03:25,300 going to be posting my experiences every step 1490 01:03:25,300 --> 01:03:28,270 of the way from design to manufacturer. 1491 01:03:28,270 --> 01:03:30,740 So if you want to watch someone struggle immensely 1492 01:03:30,740 --> 01:03:33,829 through the process and watch the mistakes that I've 1493 01:03:33,829 --> 01:03:34,870 made and laugh immensely. 1494 01:03:34,870 --> 01:03:37,180 It's going to be hilarious. 1495 01:03:37,180 --> 01:03:39,720 Just grab a business card. 1496 01:03:39,720 --> 01:03:43,080 If you're interested in playing Croquet and also murdering 1497 01:03:43,080 --> 01:03:48,688 each other, this is definitely the game for that. 1498 01:03:48,688 --> 01:03:51,850 GLENN GIVEN: And so just to show you guys, 1499 01:03:51,850 --> 01:03:54,547 these are the three phases of prototypes. 1500 01:03:54,547 --> 01:03:56,380 Well, these are the two phases of prototypes 1501 01:03:56,380 --> 01:03:57,410 that I went through. 1502 01:03:57,410 --> 01:03:59,110 MACKENZIE CAMERON: They each have VHS cassettes. 1503 01:03:59,110 --> 01:03:59,860 GLENN GIVEN: Yeah. 1504 01:03:59,860 --> 01:04:00,940 And so here's the trick. 1505 01:04:00,940 --> 01:04:02,800 The reason that it's in a VHS cassette 1506 01:04:02,800 --> 01:04:09,000 is because this will fit into the smallest flat rate priority 1507 01:04:09,000 --> 01:04:09,640 mailer. 1508 01:04:09,640 --> 01:04:10,890 MACKENZIE CAMERON: Oh, really? 1509 01:04:10,890 --> 01:04:13,780 GLENN GIVEN: I can get any game that fits in this size anywhere 1510 01:04:13,780 --> 01:04:16,750 in America for $5 in two days. 1511 01:04:16,750 --> 01:04:19,040 And you can't beat that. 1512 01:04:19,040 --> 01:04:21,340 And so if I wanted to get a lot of these games 1513 01:04:21,340 --> 01:04:23,790 out and not get a second mortgage on my house 1514 01:04:23,790 --> 01:04:26,770 because I'm not an idiot, I designed that. 1515 01:04:26,770 --> 01:04:31,142 So I actually do that with all of my monthly games. 1516 01:04:31,142 --> 01:04:33,100 MACKENZIE CAMERON: And the cases are probably-- 1517 01:04:33,100 --> 01:04:34,400 GLENN GIVEN: The case are dirt cheap. 1518 01:04:34,400 --> 01:04:35,640 They're like $0.08 each. 1519 01:04:35,640 --> 01:04:36,520 MACKENZIE CAMERON: Yeah, because nobody uses them anymore. 1520 01:04:36,520 --> 01:04:37,580 GLENN GIVEN: Yeah. 1521 01:04:37,580 --> 01:04:38,680 No one needs it. 1522 01:04:38,680 --> 01:04:41,530 So I found a place that is still selling them. 1523 01:04:41,530 --> 01:04:45,600 So supply chain stuff. 1524 01:04:45,600 --> 01:04:58,541 AUDIENCE: So [INAUDIBLE] 1525 01:04:58,541 --> 01:05:01,660 GLENN GIVEN: No, I did not. 1526 01:05:01,660 --> 01:05:04,220 I don't know Maybe I did. 1527 01:05:04,220 --> 01:05:07,532 My artist is supposed to be getting it to me today. 1528 01:05:13,108 --> 01:05:14,566 PROFESSOR: Thanks for coming, guys. 1529 01:05:14,566 --> 01:05:15,280 What are you guys doing? 1530 01:05:15,280 --> 01:05:16,382 GLENN GIVEN: Oh, thanks. 1531 01:05:16,382 --> 01:05:17,510 That was great. 1532 01:05:17,510 --> 01:05:19,060 AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE]