1 00:00:00,090 --> 00:00:02,490 The following content is provided under a Creative 2 00:00:02,490 --> 00:00:04,030 Commons license. 3 00:00:04,030 --> 00:00:06,330 Your support will help MIT OpenCourseWare 4 00:00:06,330 --> 00:00:10,720 continue to offer high quality educational resources for free. 5 00:00:10,720 --> 00:00:13,320 To make a donation or view additional materials 6 00:00:13,320 --> 00:00:17,280 from hundreds of MIT courses, visit MIT OpenCourseWare 7 00:00:17,280 --> 00:00:20,820 at ocw.mit.edu. 8 00:00:20,820 --> 00:00:22,500 PROFESSOR: We go into a reading today. 9 00:00:22,500 --> 00:00:29,130 So this is an interesting book that 10 00:00:29,130 --> 00:00:31,890 came out from something called the New Games Movement, which 11 00:00:31,890 --> 00:00:36,110 I have mentioned a few times in class but just as a reminder. 12 00:00:36,110 --> 00:00:38,720 I think it was mostly in the 60's. 13 00:00:38,720 --> 00:00:40,440 How many of you kind of got that vibe 14 00:00:40,440 --> 00:00:41,606 while you were reading this? 15 00:00:44,300 --> 00:00:50,490 But it's interesting because it's written in this almost 16 00:00:50,490 --> 00:00:53,890 Hemminway-ish kind of short little sentences-- 17 00:00:53,890 --> 00:00:56,580 short little declarative sentences 18 00:00:56,580 --> 00:00:59,670 about wellness, and happiness, and getting along 19 00:00:59,670 --> 00:01:01,540 with the community and stuff like that. 20 00:01:01,540 --> 00:01:04,800 But all of the principles, at least 21 00:01:04,800 --> 00:01:06,660 in the chapter in today's reading, 22 00:01:06,660 --> 00:01:08,640 aren't actually all that different from what 23 00:01:08,640 --> 00:01:11,340 I've been teaching all semester long 24 00:01:11,340 --> 00:01:18,300 regarding game design and play testing, if it's your job 25 00:01:18,300 --> 00:01:20,270 to actually make a game. 26 00:01:20,270 --> 00:01:23,390 What Bernie DeKoven and some of his other colleagues-- 27 00:01:23,390 --> 00:01:27,230 has anyone heard of the Whole Earth Catalog? 28 00:01:27,230 --> 00:01:27,844 Brant, was it? 29 00:01:27,844 --> 00:01:28,760 AUDIENCE: Brant, yeah. 30 00:01:28,760 --> 00:01:29,682 What was it? 31 00:01:29,682 --> 00:01:31,140 PROFESSOR: The Whole Earth Catalog. 32 00:01:31,140 --> 00:01:33,167 AUDIENCE: That was the thing with the parachute? 33 00:01:33,167 --> 00:01:35,000 PROFESSOR: Well, actually, that's a New Game 34 00:01:35,000 --> 00:01:35,970 Movement in particular. 35 00:01:35,970 --> 00:01:37,000 Yeah. 36 00:01:37,000 --> 00:01:39,330 It's kind of the same community of people who are just 37 00:01:39,330 --> 00:01:41,040 trying to find ways to-- 38 00:01:41,040 --> 00:01:44,850 not only to find ways for people to get along with each other, 39 00:01:44,850 --> 00:01:47,010 but also things like [INAUDIBLE] where you're 40 00:01:47,010 --> 00:01:49,320 taking military equipment and turning them 41 00:01:49,320 --> 00:01:53,790 into things that you play with and stuff like that. 42 00:01:53,790 --> 00:01:58,260 So today's chapter has a lot of stuff 43 00:01:58,260 --> 00:02:02,910 about how people who don't necessarily see themselves 44 00:02:02,910 --> 00:02:05,100 as game makers can use some of the practices 45 00:02:05,100 --> 00:02:08,820 that we've been talking about in this class to basically change 46 00:02:08,820 --> 00:02:13,260 the way they play games that they already play. 47 00:02:13,260 --> 00:02:18,000 And in the process of that create new games. 48 00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:19,800 The New Games Movement-- there's actually 49 00:02:19,800 --> 00:02:23,670 a New Games Book that is more about the kinds of games 50 00:02:23,670 --> 00:02:24,420 that you can play. 51 00:02:24,420 --> 00:02:26,370 It includes things like parachute. 52 00:02:26,370 --> 00:02:30,650 If you've ever done that game where there's 53 00:02:30,650 --> 00:02:33,280 two people back to back-- you're sitting back to back 54 00:02:33,280 --> 00:02:36,680 and then your job is to stand up, 55 00:02:36,680 --> 00:02:38,795 I think without using your hands. 56 00:02:38,795 --> 00:02:40,170 Is that right? 57 00:02:40,170 --> 00:02:43,530 Oh, you lock your arms. 58 00:02:43,530 --> 00:02:45,170 Yeah. 59 00:02:45,170 --> 00:02:52,380 Also that game where everyone gets into a tight circle, 60 00:02:52,380 --> 00:02:55,530 reaches in, grabs somebody else's hand and the whole job 61 00:02:55,530 --> 00:02:56,930 is to untangle it. 62 00:02:56,930 --> 00:03:00,400 You see that in schools a lot nowadays, as well as 63 00:03:00,400 --> 00:03:01,770 games like parachute. 64 00:03:01,770 --> 00:03:05,850 And all that came from this New Games Movement. 65 00:03:05,850 --> 00:03:13,260 Again, it's a reaction to wars in Vietnam and, I guess, Korea. 66 00:03:13,260 --> 00:03:14,907 Am I getting my chronology right? 67 00:03:14,907 --> 00:03:16,240 AUDIENCE: Yeah, Korea then 'Nam. 68 00:03:16,240 --> 00:03:20,500 PROFESSOR: Yeah, and just trying to say, how do we 69 00:03:20,500 --> 00:03:21,990 learn how to play with other people 70 00:03:21,990 --> 00:03:24,790 instead of fighting other people? 71 00:03:24,790 --> 00:03:27,960 But there are a couple of interesting ideas 72 00:03:27,960 --> 00:03:32,522 in here that I felt were kind of unique to today's reading 73 00:03:32,522 --> 00:03:34,480 that we haven't necessarily addressed in class. 74 00:03:34,480 --> 00:03:39,925 Did anything leap out in Changing the Game? 75 00:03:39,925 --> 00:03:40,460 Yeah? 76 00:03:40,460 --> 00:03:42,722 AUDIENCE: He talked a lot about borrowing rules. 77 00:03:42,722 --> 00:03:45,082 So taking something from another game and kind 78 00:03:45,082 --> 00:03:47,442 of putting in your own. 79 00:03:47,442 --> 00:03:50,869 And making it your own and getting you 80 00:03:50,869 --> 00:03:53,782 over the hump of having to make up something completely new. 81 00:03:53,782 --> 00:03:56,240 PROFESSOR: Yeah, and it's kind of funny because the example 82 00:03:56,240 --> 00:03:59,610 that you talked about-- it's kind of like borrowing 83 00:03:59,610 --> 00:04:03,150 the rule on the fly, like from a different variant 84 00:04:03,150 --> 00:04:03,900 of the same game. 85 00:04:03,900 --> 00:04:05,691 But I think the same principle can actually 86 00:04:05,691 --> 00:04:10,460 be applied to a much wider range of things like safety rules. 87 00:04:10,460 --> 00:04:13,350 Like say you're playing a game like tag or something 88 00:04:13,350 --> 00:04:17,640 like that, and you haven't necessarily 89 00:04:17,640 --> 00:04:21,329 mapped out the boundaries of your game, 90 00:04:21,329 --> 00:04:24,930 but the game that you've played with your friends 91 00:04:24,930 --> 00:04:28,215 before decided that one of the boundaries 92 00:04:28,215 --> 00:04:30,090 was going to be the edge of that road, right? 93 00:04:30,090 --> 00:04:31,530 Nobody can run past that road. 94 00:04:31,530 --> 00:04:34,950 That's a fairly sensible safety rule. 95 00:04:34,950 --> 00:04:37,141 It'd be easy enough to just borrow a rule from that 96 00:04:37,141 --> 00:04:39,390 and just say, just like that last game that we played, 97 00:04:39,390 --> 00:04:42,406 no one crosses that road for safety reasons. 98 00:04:42,406 --> 00:04:42,906 Yeah? 99 00:04:42,906 --> 00:04:44,840 AUDIENCE: Another one on this combat 100 00:04:44,840 --> 00:04:47,980 that's really, really confused as far as where it comes from, 101 00:04:47,980 --> 00:04:50,332 especially when your game isn't necessarily 102 00:04:50,332 --> 00:04:51,290 about the whole combat. 103 00:04:51,290 --> 00:04:54,141 Like nothing like just not having to worry about how 104 00:04:54,141 --> 00:04:55,224 the combat actually works. 105 00:04:55,224 --> 00:04:56,833 We borrowed a few different ones. 106 00:04:56,833 --> 00:04:58,170 Like we tried Risk, we tried [INAUDIBLE]. 107 00:04:58,170 --> 00:04:59,544 It's like, we don't actually want 108 00:04:59,544 --> 00:05:02,400 to spend time on developing a fair combat system, 109 00:05:02,400 --> 00:05:03,774 just trying stuff out. 110 00:05:03,774 --> 00:05:04,440 PROFESSOR: Sure. 111 00:05:04,440 --> 00:05:06,420 I mean, as game designers you can certainly 112 00:05:06,420 --> 00:05:09,490 sort of be inspired by what other people have done. 113 00:05:09,490 --> 00:05:14,010 And of course, again, you're designing 114 00:05:14,010 --> 00:05:16,050 a game meant for somebody else to play, 115 00:05:16,050 --> 00:05:18,590 where it's what Bernie DeKoven is writing about. 116 00:05:18,590 --> 00:05:22,556 It's about changing a rule that you're about to play or maybe 117 00:05:22,556 --> 00:05:23,430 even a possible play. 118 00:05:23,430 --> 00:05:24,150 [INAUDIBLE] 119 00:05:25,672 --> 00:05:27,213 AUDIENCE: I just found it interesting 120 00:05:27,213 --> 00:05:32,195 how [INAUDIBLE] rules that sort of help players 121 00:05:32,195 --> 00:05:34,051 play the game as it is right now. 122 00:05:34,051 --> 00:05:36,039 And rules that actually change the strategy 123 00:05:36,039 --> 00:05:37,986 that you have to [INAUDIBLE]. 124 00:05:37,986 --> 00:05:38,710 PROFESSOR: Right. 125 00:05:38,710 --> 00:05:42,910 So there are rules that clarify what it is that you can or you 126 00:05:42,910 --> 00:05:45,176 cannot do, right? 127 00:05:45,176 --> 00:05:50,320 And then there are rules which he explicitly 128 00:05:50,320 --> 00:05:54,690 states as the definition of a change game. 129 00:05:54,690 --> 00:05:58,330 It's one that requires you to come up with a new strategy. 130 00:05:58,330 --> 00:06:02,530 So things like that safety rule that I described earlier 131 00:06:02,530 --> 00:06:04,466 doesn't necessarily fit that. 132 00:06:04,466 --> 00:06:09,120 But it fulfills other purposes like being able to play well, 133 00:06:09,120 --> 00:06:11,170 giving you the feeling of wellness. 134 00:06:11,170 --> 00:06:15,790 I can't believe that line, but it's great. 135 00:06:15,790 --> 00:06:17,830 But then there's also rules like, we're 136 00:06:17,830 --> 00:06:22,281 going to change the game because it's not challenging given 137 00:06:22,281 --> 00:06:23,530 the way it's currently played. 138 00:06:23,530 --> 00:06:28,510 Maybe the current set of rules has a simple exploit 139 00:06:28,510 --> 00:06:30,730 that just leads to one person winning all the time. 140 00:06:30,730 --> 00:06:32,854 Maybe someone is just way more skilled at this game 141 00:06:32,854 --> 00:06:35,290 than somebody else or you're playing with a five-year-old, 142 00:06:35,290 --> 00:06:36,123 something that like. 143 00:06:36,123 --> 00:06:39,277 And you want to have some challenge, 144 00:06:39,277 --> 00:06:41,110 you want to keep some challenge for the kid. 145 00:06:41,110 --> 00:06:43,200 But if you just stick with the rules right now, 146 00:06:43,200 --> 00:06:45,070 the kid will be endlessly challenged 147 00:06:45,070 --> 00:06:47,060 and will not ever be able to win, 148 00:06:47,060 --> 00:06:49,190 and you're not being challenged at all. 149 00:06:49,190 --> 00:06:51,300 That's where you give yourself-- 150 00:06:51,300 --> 00:06:56,020 and he brings this up, what's that the thing 151 00:06:56,020 --> 00:07:00,500 you introduce into the game to be able to rebalance that? 152 00:07:00,500 --> 00:07:04,090 You should know it even if you didn't read it. 153 00:07:04,090 --> 00:07:05,710 If you're playing with somebody who 154 00:07:05,710 --> 00:07:08,740 is way less skilled than you, you give yourself a handicap. 155 00:07:08,740 --> 00:07:10,380 Yeah. 156 00:07:10,380 --> 00:07:16,270 Yeah, so handicapping is a really interesting concept 157 00:07:16,270 --> 00:07:18,067 regarding game balance. 158 00:07:18,067 --> 00:07:20,150 Because normally when we think about game balance, 159 00:07:20,150 --> 00:07:25,120 it's all about how do we think of the rules 160 00:07:25,120 --> 00:07:27,880 so that everybody is kind of equally skilled, 161 00:07:27,880 --> 00:07:29,590 everyone kind of has a fair chance 162 00:07:29,590 --> 00:07:33,460 of winning, a decent chance-- maybe not exactly 163 00:07:33,460 --> 00:07:35,680 an even chance of winning, but at least a fair chance 164 00:07:35,680 --> 00:07:37,210 of winning. 165 00:07:37,210 --> 00:07:42,520 But he's introducing the concept of handicapping as a way 166 00:07:42,520 --> 00:07:46,380 to be able to reintroduce challenge in the situation 167 00:07:46,380 --> 00:07:50,370 where players are not equally skilled because 168 00:07:50,370 --> 00:07:53,359 of physical reasons, because of expertise 169 00:07:53,359 --> 00:07:55,400 or familiarity with the game, that sort of thing. 170 00:07:58,270 --> 00:08:02,284 So let me see, is that it? 171 00:08:02,284 --> 00:08:04,450 Anything else that people remember from the reading? 172 00:08:10,180 --> 00:08:12,080 Again a lot of the stuff-- 173 00:08:12,080 --> 00:08:13,540 there is an interesting little bit 174 00:08:13,540 --> 00:08:16,330 that he talks about cheating as a thing 175 00:08:16,330 --> 00:08:21,250 that players should be trying to do if you are already 176 00:08:21,250 --> 00:08:25,690 in the mood to be able to then suggest 177 00:08:25,690 --> 00:08:27,750 rule changes to the rest of the community. 178 00:08:27,750 --> 00:08:29,890 And you should be finding the loopholes, right. 179 00:08:29,890 --> 00:08:32,830 You should be trying to figure out, 180 00:08:32,830 --> 00:08:36,230 given the current set of rules that you're playing right now, 181 00:08:36,230 --> 00:08:38,870 what are the problems with that set of rules 182 00:08:38,870 --> 00:08:40,659 and how do you improve on them? 183 00:08:40,659 --> 00:08:44,049 And the way how you figure out whether these rules are 184 00:08:44,049 --> 00:08:47,240 important, or well written, or problematic, 185 00:08:47,240 --> 00:08:49,090 is you try to break them. 186 00:08:49,090 --> 00:08:52,330 And then, if you break them, then you realize that, oh OK, 187 00:08:52,330 --> 00:08:55,510 that rule was really necessary in order for the game to play, 188 00:08:55,510 --> 00:08:57,580 but your attitude is, I want to continue 189 00:08:57,580 --> 00:08:58,960 playing with all of you. 190 00:08:58,960 --> 00:09:04,870 Then you say, all right, we're not going to do that anymore. 191 00:09:04,870 --> 00:09:07,630 I think it takes a tremendous amount of trust among players 192 00:09:07,630 --> 00:09:09,400 to be able to accommodate that. 193 00:09:09,400 --> 00:09:12,760 I don't know how many people actually play regularly 194 00:09:12,760 --> 00:09:14,060 in environments like that. 195 00:09:14,060 --> 00:09:17,042 AUDIENCE: Are you saying that you 196 00:09:17,042 --> 00:09:20,091 should be trying to cheat to show the rules [INAUDIBLE]? 197 00:09:20,091 --> 00:09:23,470 PROFESSOR: That you should be trying to find the exploits. 198 00:09:23,470 --> 00:09:27,670 You should be trying to figure out exactly how ironclad 199 00:09:27,670 --> 00:09:29,080 this rule actually is, right. 200 00:09:29,080 --> 00:09:32,416 Or whether this rule is a good idea in the first place. 201 00:09:32,416 --> 00:09:34,664 AUDIENCE: By breaking the rules? 202 00:09:34,664 --> 00:09:35,830 PROFESSOR: By breaking them. 203 00:09:35,830 --> 00:09:36,850 It's very, very strange. 204 00:09:36,850 --> 00:09:40,930 It's a very, very interesting suggestion. 205 00:09:40,930 --> 00:09:42,610 I can't recall of a situation when 206 00:09:42,610 --> 00:09:45,750 I've been in a play community, as he describes it, 207 00:09:45,750 --> 00:09:48,730 where there's enough trust to be able to let people get away 208 00:09:48,730 --> 00:09:49,280 with that. 209 00:09:49,280 --> 00:09:51,571 AUDIENCE: Honestly, I think it's just less interesting. 210 00:09:51,571 --> 00:09:53,968 I think it's more interesting-- 211 00:09:53,968 --> 00:09:56,134 I forget who said this-- this is like a quote that's 212 00:09:56,134 --> 00:09:59,310 like, creatively actually comes from constraints. 213 00:09:59,310 --> 00:10:01,460 I think it's a lot more interesting to actually try 214 00:10:01,460 --> 00:10:06,990 to find the broken strategy in a game as it is. 215 00:10:06,990 --> 00:10:12,190 PROFESSOR: OK, to find the degenerate strategies 216 00:10:12,190 --> 00:10:14,140 within the rules as supposed to figure out 217 00:10:14,140 --> 00:10:15,434 where the rules are broken. 218 00:10:15,434 --> 00:10:18,338 AUDIENCE: So some of them play the-- 219 00:10:18,338 --> 00:10:20,758 [INAUDIBLE] change the rules [INAUDIBLE]. 220 00:10:20,758 --> 00:10:24,146 Sometimes when playing games you're like, how do we-- 221 00:10:24,146 --> 00:10:26,919 but I feel like every time I've done those with other people, 222 00:10:26,919 --> 00:10:28,502 it's always been important to everyone 223 00:10:28,502 --> 00:10:31,266 that everyone knows what the rules are [INAUDIBLE]. 224 00:10:31,266 --> 00:10:32,890 PROFESSOR: And that's one thing that he 225 00:10:32,890 --> 00:10:34,830 very, very clearly states. 226 00:10:34,830 --> 00:10:38,200 It's like, you are cheating publicly. 227 00:10:38,200 --> 00:10:41,334 You are broadcasting the fact that you are cheating, which 228 00:10:41,334 --> 00:10:43,750 brings up the question, are you really cheating or are you 229 00:10:43,750 --> 00:10:47,300 just proposing a rule change, right? 230 00:10:47,300 --> 00:10:49,180 But the idea of treating the rules 231 00:10:49,180 --> 00:10:51,280 as something that could be maleable, I think, 232 00:10:51,280 --> 00:10:52,840 is what he's really getting at. 233 00:10:52,840 --> 00:10:54,490 He doesn't fight to use the word cheating, which 234 00:10:54,490 --> 00:10:56,615 I'm not entirely sure whether that's the right word 235 00:10:56,615 --> 00:10:57,454 to describe it. 236 00:10:57,454 --> 00:11:00,130 AUDIENCE: To me it seems sort of similar to the phase 237 00:11:00,130 --> 00:11:05,310 idea of [INAUDIBLE] what's underneath the game. 238 00:11:05,310 --> 00:11:09,760 So if you start breaking a rule and you're doing it publicly 239 00:11:09,760 --> 00:11:11,710 with the knowledge of other people, 240 00:11:11,710 --> 00:11:13,460 just to see what happens if we start to break this rule, 241 00:11:13,460 --> 00:11:15,501 I think you can get into some interesting issues. 242 00:11:15,501 --> 00:11:19,407 Like well, what makes the game tick? 243 00:11:19,407 --> 00:11:21,990 I don't know, I feel like a lot of games I used play as a kid, 244 00:11:21,990 --> 00:11:23,807 we would explicitly break rules. 245 00:11:23,807 --> 00:11:25,390 We would know of the rule of the game, 246 00:11:25,390 --> 00:11:27,413 but we would choose to either not play with it 247 00:11:27,413 --> 00:11:29,459 or to just limit it. 248 00:11:29,459 --> 00:11:30,500 This resource is limited. 249 00:11:30,500 --> 00:11:32,667 Like well, you know, this time when we play it it's 250 00:11:32,667 --> 00:11:33,400 not going to be. 251 00:11:33,400 --> 00:11:34,566 Let's just see what happens. 252 00:11:34,566 --> 00:11:35,560 PROFESSOR: Right. 253 00:11:35,560 --> 00:11:39,059 Yeah, and that's the attitude that he is trying to encourage. 254 00:11:39,059 --> 00:11:41,674 AUDIENCE: I feel like if you're like, for whatever purpose 255 00:11:41,674 --> 00:11:43,490 you're playing a game-- like if you're playing to win 256 00:11:43,490 --> 00:11:45,486 or if you're playing just for fun or something, 257 00:11:45,486 --> 00:11:48,692 players are too keen to change the rules when they don't do 258 00:11:48,692 --> 00:11:50,052 [INAUDIBLE]. 259 00:11:50,052 --> 00:11:51,760 PROFESSOR: Players aren't or players are? 260 00:11:51,760 --> 00:11:53,253 AUDIENCE: Players are. 261 00:11:53,253 --> 00:11:55,618 Like if you're just not very good at a game 262 00:11:55,618 --> 00:11:58,929 or you run into some sort of obstacle or strategy 263 00:11:58,929 --> 00:12:00,200 that [INAUDIBLE] done that. 264 00:12:00,200 --> 00:12:03,470 I think players, in general, jump to changing the rules too 265 00:12:03,470 --> 00:12:03,970 frequently. 266 00:12:03,970 --> 00:12:04,530 PROFESSOR: Too frequently? 267 00:12:04,530 --> 00:12:05,155 AUDIENCE: Yeah. 268 00:12:05,155 --> 00:12:09,650 PROFESSOR: OK, let's dig into that. 269 00:12:09,650 --> 00:12:12,160 Why too frequently? 270 00:12:12,160 --> 00:12:14,170 Why do you feel that happens too often? 271 00:12:14,170 --> 00:12:15,902 AUDIENCE: I'm thinking along the lines of competitive games 272 00:12:15,902 --> 00:12:16,150 here. 273 00:12:16,150 --> 00:12:18,496 You just get tired of how they have blame other people 274 00:12:18,496 --> 00:12:20,497 besides themselves. 275 00:12:20,497 --> 00:12:21,080 PROFESSOR: OK. 276 00:12:21,080 --> 00:12:23,040 AUDIENCE: Just in general. 277 00:12:23,040 --> 00:12:25,240 PROFESSOR: But what if you were trying to change 278 00:12:25,240 --> 00:12:27,960 the rules for other people? 279 00:12:27,960 --> 00:12:30,385 AUDIENCE: Yeah, no, I think that sort thing requires 280 00:12:30,385 --> 00:12:32,325 a really in depth understanding of all 281 00:12:32,325 --> 00:12:34,730 the strategy [INAUDIBLE]. 282 00:12:34,730 --> 00:12:40,690 PROFESSOR: Well, say I'm in a fighting game tournament 283 00:12:40,690 --> 00:12:44,910 or something like that where usually the rules are 284 00:12:44,910 --> 00:12:47,255 pretty rigidly enforced, right? 285 00:12:47,255 --> 00:12:47,880 AUDIENCE: Yeah. 286 00:12:47,880 --> 00:12:51,430 PROFESSOR: But I'm not like a top-level player. 287 00:12:51,430 --> 00:12:57,700 I just happen to be on a real winning streak among people 288 00:12:57,700 --> 00:13:05,450 that I know and I don't seem to be able to lose right now. 289 00:13:05,450 --> 00:13:10,120 So I think what Bernie is talking about 290 00:13:10,120 --> 00:13:13,390 is describing a situation where, especially if you 291 00:13:13,390 --> 00:13:15,880 are that person who seems to be on a winning streak, 292 00:13:15,880 --> 00:13:18,100 you might want to suggest a rule change to be 293 00:13:18,100 --> 00:13:21,910 able to bring the challenge back to you, right. 294 00:13:21,910 --> 00:13:25,355 I've seen players do this specifically in our kids 295 00:13:25,355 --> 00:13:27,730 where it's like, I'm going to pick the character that I'm 296 00:13:27,730 --> 00:13:29,620 crappiest at because I can't seem 297 00:13:29,620 --> 00:13:31,630 to be able to lose by playing the characters 298 00:13:31,630 --> 00:13:34,590 that I'm actually good at. 299 00:13:34,590 --> 00:13:38,190 That's [INAUDIBLE] very interesting for me. 300 00:13:38,190 --> 00:13:47,035 AUDIENCE: I mean, [INAUDIBLE] rule changes to [INAUDIBLE] 301 00:13:47,035 --> 00:13:48,191 I'm calling it cheating. 302 00:13:48,191 --> 00:13:48,857 PROFESSOR: Yeah. 303 00:13:48,857 --> 00:13:51,273 AUDIENCE: Because to me cheating implies that you are not. 304 00:13:51,273 --> 00:13:53,885 Me changing the rules and everyone agrees on the rules 305 00:13:53,885 --> 00:13:55,705 and how the rules change, and it's not. 306 00:13:55,705 --> 00:13:57,060 Then you have changed the rules. 307 00:13:57,060 --> 00:13:58,857 You are now playing by a different set of rules. 308 00:13:58,857 --> 00:14:01,481 If you play by those, you're not cheating because you're not 309 00:14:01,481 --> 00:14:02,174 playing by the original. 310 00:14:02,174 --> 00:14:03,791 I feel like cheating is anything where 311 00:14:03,791 --> 00:14:06,940 you are breaking the set of rules that was agreed upon. 312 00:14:06,940 --> 00:14:10,270 PROFESSOR: Well, cheating also, I think, 313 00:14:10,270 --> 00:14:13,167 has a certain assumption that everybody else is not 314 00:14:13,167 --> 00:14:14,250 breaking the rules, right. 315 00:14:14,250 --> 00:14:16,583 No one is playing with a different set of rules but you. 316 00:14:16,583 --> 00:14:18,760 All but the cheat. 317 00:14:18,760 --> 00:14:20,440 In fact, a lot of cheats only work 318 00:14:20,440 --> 00:14:22,800 if everyone else sticks to the rules as written 319 00:14:22,800 --> 00:14:24,560 and then you're the only one cheating. 320 00:14:24,560 --> 00:14:27,570 So again, I think he's trying to get across the attitude 321 00:14:27,570 --> 00:14:30,029 but used the wrong word for it by describing it as cheating 322 00:14:30,029 --> 00:14:31,528 AUDIENCE: You brought up the example 323 00:14:31,528 --> 00:14:34,570 of fighting games and picking a character that you're not 324 00:14:34,570 --> 00:14:36,518 very good at. 325 00:14:36,518 --> 00:14:38,860 That's not even a rule change, in my opinion. 326 00:14:38,860 --> 00:14:40,620 PROFESSOR: That's true. 327 00:14:40,620 --> 00:14:42,430 Well, yeah, I guess. 328 00:14:42,430 --> 00:14:45,370 I'm trying to think of the implicit-- maybe not 329 00:14:45,370 --> 00:14:47,740 a rule change, but it's more like a values change 330 00:14:47,740 --> 00:14:49,633 that you should be playing to win, right. 331 00:14:49,633 --> 00:14:51,560 AUDIENCE: You can make a rule that, OK, normally everyone 332 00:14:51,560 --> 00:14:53,460 can choose whatever character they want, 333 00:14:53,460 --> 00:14:54,922 but yours is always better than us 334 00:14:54,922 --> 00:14:56,765 so that when you play in our play group, 335 00:14:56,765 --> 00:14:57,807 I choose your character. 336 00:14:57,807 --> 00:14:58,640 PROFESSOR: Oh, yeah. 337 00:14:58,640 --> 00:15:01,284 You get to choose my character or something like that. 338 00:15:01,284 --> 00:15:02,950 You tell me who you want to play against 339 00:15:02,950 --> 00:15:05,640 and I'll try my best to play that game. 340 00:15:05,640 --> 00:15:08,129 Let's start in with Miguel and then over to Laura. 341 00:15:08,129 --> 00:15:08,628 Yeah? 342 00:15:08,628 --> 00:15:10,770 AUDIENCE: So, one thing I wanted to bring up 343 00:15:10,770 --> 00:15:14,764 was so you think if one person isn't 344 00:15:14,764 --> 00:15:18,424 being challenged enough then they can start experimenting. 345 00:15:18,424 --> 00:15:22,328 But in my experience it more often happens 346 00:15:22,328 --> 00:15:25,744 when the entire group is not being challenged anymore. 347 00:15:25,744 --> 00:15:29,160 In the sense of, you two just played Catan three times 348 00:15:29,160 --> 00:15:31,112 over the last few days. 349 00:15:31,112 --> 00:15:34,040 And she was kind of tired of Catan. 350 00:15:34,040 --> 00:15:36,414 You're kind of ready to do something else, 351 00:15:36,414 --> 00:15:38,710 but you don't have a different board game [INAUDIBLE] 352 00:15:38,710 --> 00:15:40,164 or something. 353 00:15:40,164 --> 00:15:41,830 PROFESSOR: So then make a variant, sure. 354 00:15:41,830 --> 00:15:43,330 AUDIENCE: --different variants up. 355 00:15:43,330 --> 00:15:46,330 And it's like everyone is trying to increase the challenge, 356 00:15:46,330 --> 00:15:49,396 not because it's not challenging. 357 00:15:49,396 --> 00:15:52,628 There's still [INAUDIBLE] who is going win 358 00:15:52,628 --> 00:15:54,268 and you all sit down and start playing. 359 00:15:54,268 --> 00:15:57,220 But it's not challenging in the sense that it's not engaging 360 00:15:57,220 --> 00:15:58,100 and not interesting. 361 00:15:58,100 --> 00:16:00,350 PROFESSOR: I think the reason why it's easier to do it 362 00:16:00,350 --> 00:16:04,310 when there's a lot of people finding a game uninteresting 363 00:16:04,310 --> 00:16:06,170 is because it's easier to get a consensus 364 00:16:06,170 --> 00:16:09,770 to be able to enforce a change of the rules, right. 365 00:16:09,770 --> 00:16:13,536 It's a lot harder to say-- 366 00:16:13,536 --> 00:16:15,410 say I'm 12 and I'm playing with a whole bunch 367 00:16:15,410 --> 00:16:17,076 of other 12-year-olds, and there happens 368 00:16:17,076 --> 00:16:19,700 to be a 9-year-old in the group and we're playing 369 00:16:19,700 --> 00:16:21,440 soccer or something like that. 370 00:16:21,440 --> 00:16:24,200 It's harder for anyone to convince 371 00:16:24,200 --> 00:16:27,780 the rest of the 12-year-olds to take it easy on a 9-year-old. 372 00:16:27,780 --> 00:16:31,950 Like, all right, what if we give an extra player 373 00:16:31,950 --> 00:16:33,994 on the 9-year-old team or something like that. 374 00:16:36,730 --> 00:16:39,500 Not to say it can't be done and I 375 00:16:39,500 --> 00:16:41,540 think that's what Bernie DeKoven is saying, 376 00:16:41,540 --> 00:16:45,070 no you should be able to do that sort of thing. 377 00:16:45,070 --> 00:16:48,000 And it kind of makes the game more interesting for everybody, 378 00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:50,105 not just for the person who is having a hard time. 379 00:16:50,105 --> 00:16:51,730 It makes the game more interesting even 380 00:16:51,730 --> 00:16:54,740 for the people who have an advantage because now it 381 00:16:54,740 --> 00:16:56,780 makes it a big-- 382 00:16:56,780 --> 00:17:00,140 more of a fight, I guess, for them to be able to win. 383 00:17:00,140 --> 00:17:00,640 Laura? 384 00:17:00,640 --> 00:17:02,785 AUDIENCE: Well, I think the other issue 385 00:17:02,785 --> 00:17:07,570 I have with the word cheating in describing changing the rules-- 386 00:17:07,570 --> 00:17:10,540 and less so against for individual players-- 387 00:17:10,540 --> 00:17:12,272 I know, for example, there are games 388 00:17:12,272 --> 00:17:14,692 that I've played since I was really little where it wasn't 389 00:17:14,692 --> 00:17:16,150 really intentional that we were not 390 00:17:16,150 --> 00:17:17,965 playing by the original rules. 391 00:17:17,965 --> 00:17:20,440 It's just that when I was seven and I 392 00:17:20,440 --> 00:17:24,400 learned how to play Monopoly or Clue or some really 393 00:17:24,400 --> 00:17:26,329 generic board game that I learned 394 00:17:26,329 --> 00:17:27,370 when I was really little. 395 00:17:27,370 --> 00:17:29,845 I did not sit through all the rules 396 00:17:29,845 --> 00:17:34,295 or I thought I knew the rules and didn't really remember 397 00:17:34,295 --> 00:17:34,795 them. 398 00:17:34,795 --> 00:17:37,270 And so you had a change in the rules unintentionally. 399 00:17:37,270 --> 00:17:39,447 And I think that's a very different category. 400 00:17:39,447 --> 00:17:40,655 PROFESSOR: Yeah, house rules. 401 00:17:40,655 --> 00:17:43,470 AUDIENCE: Your house rules become so much different. 402 00:17:43,470 --> 00:17:45,470 Even if you play with other people 403 00:17:45,470 --> 00:17:48,470 and you're kind of all playing by your own house rules, 404 00:17:48,470 --> 00:17:49,929 it doesn't really feel like-- 405 00:17:49,929 --> 00:17:51,470 I wouldn't always call that cheating. 406 00:17:51,470 --> 00:17:52,970 It's not because you're not trying 407 00:17:52,970 --> 00:17:54,534 to play by the correct-- what you 408 00:17:54,534 --> 00:17:55,700 think are the correct rules. 409 00:17:55,700 --> 00:17:57,300 PROFESSOR: And more importantly, everybody in the room's 410 00:17:57,300 --> 00:17:58,702 agreed to that set of-- 411 00:17:58,702 --> 00:17:59,910 this new set of rules, right. 412 00:17:59,910 --> 00:18:02,670 So cheating is again not a great word 413 00:18:02,670 --> 00:18:04,390 to be able to describe that. 414 00:18:04,390 --> 00:18:07,890 AUDIENCE: I feel like when you're modifying rules 415 00:18:07,890 --> 00:18:10,265 there's a few different ways to do it. 416 00:18:10,265 --> 00:18:12,740 Sometimes you just add a little to a game. 417 00:18:12,740 --> 00:18:17,820 You're just like, it's not interesting enough, 418 00:18:17,820 --> 00:18:21,312 make up some initial variants to make it sort more [INAUDIBLE]. 419 00:18:21,312 --> 00:18:31,728 And other times if you're doing it it's [INAUDIBLE] Catan with 420 00:18:31,728 --> 00:18:39,664 friends there, we [INAUDIBLE] because it's really overpowered 421 00:18:39,664 --> 00:18:41,152 if you just-- 422 00:18:41,152 --> 00:18:44,128 it's really overpowered strategy [INAUDIBLE]. 423 00:18:47,600 --> 00:18:56,528 Some groups a lot more [INAUDIBLE] 424 00:18:56,528 --> 00:19:03,472 overpowered strategy [INAUDIBLE] after playing twice we've 425 00:19:03,472 --> 00:19:07,700 [INAUDIBLE] one beater in there [INAUDIBLE] because he's 426 00:19:07,700 --> 00:19:09,176 ridiculously over powered. 427 00:19:09,176 --> 00:19:17,786 And so [INAUDIBLE] different levels of [INAUDIBLE] They 428 00:19:17,786 --> 00:19:20,978 see things and there's experimenting [INAUDIBLE] 429 00:19:20,978 --> 00:19:22,936 PROFESSOR: I think in the end, Bernie DeKoven's 430 00:19:22,936 --> 00:19:27,390 kind of coming from, you should be free to challenge authority. 431 00:19:27,390 --> 00:19:29,010 That's kind of like the implicit thing 432 00:19:29,010 --> 00:19:31,198 that you get from the whole catalog as well. 433 00:19:31,198 --> 00:19:32,906 AUDIENCE: Going back to what Nathan said, 434 00:19:32,906 --> 00:19:36,025 people are sometimes too keen. 435 00:19:36,025 --> 00:19:38,316 For example, something might seem initially overpowered 436 00:19:38,316 --> 00:19:40,440 but then you play it, you might be 437 00:19:40,440 --> 00:19:42,320 after the first game, everybody's just 438 00:19:42,320 --> 00:19:44,340 like, oh yeah, it's broken, might as well just change it, 439 00:19:44,340 --> 00:19:44,460 right. 440 00:19:44,460 --> 00:19:47,085 Whereas, if you'd played another game, you might have realized, 441 00:19:47,085 --> 00:19:49,530 oh wait, you can actually counter this by just doing X. 442 00:19:49,530 --> 00:19:51,904 PROFESSOR: So actually a really interesting counterpoint, 443 00:19:51,904 --> 00:19:54,730 which is not part of our reading is Dave Sirlin who 444 00:19:54,730 --> 00:19:57,500 is a MIT alum, actually, who wrote 445 00:19:57,500 --> 00:19:59,100 a book called Playing to Win. 446 00:19:59,100 --> 00:20:01,710 This is not part of our class reading 447 00:20:01,710 --> 00:20:04,720 but he will definitely back that up, right. 448 00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:07,170 His is like, no it's everyone's responsibility 449 00:20:07,170 --> 00:20:11,005 to play as hard as they can because you have an-- 450 00:20:11,005 --> 00:20:12,630 especially for certain kinds of games-- 451 00:20:12,630 --> 00:20:14,004 you haven't discovered everything 452 00:20:14,004 --> 00:20:16,980 that your game systems capable of. 453 00:20:16,980 --> 00:20:19,200 And if somebody can beat you playing that same game 454 00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:21,150 with the same set of rules, then clearly it's 455 00:20:21,150 --> 00:20:26,160 possible to beat that player or at least get up to the point 456 00:20:26,160 --> 00:20:29,190 where they are equally skilled. 457 00:20:29,190 --> 00:20:31,940 So now there's a whole bunch of game design philosophy 458 00:20:31,940 --> 00:20:34,400 to come out of that as well. 459 00:20:34,400 --> 00:20:35,610 And I believe we played-- 460 00:20:35,610 --> 00:20:37,710 did we play Yomi in this class before? 461 00:20:37,710 --> 00:20:38,610 AUDIENCE: We used to. 462 00:20:38,610 --> 00:20:39,526 PROFESSOR: We used to? 463 00:20:39,526 --> 00:20:40,110 Yeah, OK. 464 00:20:40,110 --> 00:20:43,999 There's actually an iPad version of it now. 465 00:20:43,999 --> 00:20:45,540 It's definitely not an iPhone version 466 00:20:45,540 --> 00:20:50,476 because it's way too much text to fit on an iPhone screen. 467 00:20:50,476 --> 00:20:53,160 But Yomi is a game that-- 468 00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:56,340 it's a card game version of basically a Street Fighter 469 00:20:56,340 --> 00:20:58,050 type fighting game. 470 00:20:58,050 --> 00:21:02,054 And it's all about anticipating what the other player is going 471 00:21:02,054 --> 00:21:03,720 to do and if you manage to get it right, 472 00:21:03,720 --> 00:21:05,553 you can build up your combos and everything. 473 00:21:05,553 --> 00:21:10,680 But the whole idea of everything that Davie Sirlin's worked on, 474 00:21:10,680 --> 00:21:15,530 I believe he did a remix version of a Street Fighter, which was 475 00:21:15,530 --> 00:21:16,640 [INAUDIBLE]. 476 00:21:16,640 --> 00:21:20,310 Yeah, the HD remix versions. 477 00:21:20,310 --> 00:21:23,520 The whole idea of everything that he 478 00:21:23,520 --> 00:21:25,620 wrote about it and everything that he makes 479 00:21:25,620 --> 00:21:28,500 is that these kinds of competitive games 480 00:21:28,500 --> 00:21:30,690 really should be more about, how do you challenge 481 00:21:30,690 --> 00:21:32,380 yourself to improve better? 482 00:21:32,380 --> 00:21:35,850 And it's a lot less about the community around you. 483 00:21:35,850 --> 00:21:39,960 It's a lot more about you and the game system. 484 00:21:39,960 --> 00:21:42,180 So you are submitting yourself willingly 485 00:21:42,180 --> 00:21:46,590 to the authority of the game system, which of course, game 486 00:21:46,590 --> 00:21:48,630 designers create. 487 00:21:48,630 --> 00:21:53,340 And then if there's anything that you should be challenging, 488 00:21:53,340 --> 00:21:54,990 you should be challenging your ability 489 00:21:54,990 --> 00:21:56,941 to be able to rise to the occasion, right. 490 00:21:56,941 --> 00:21:59,190 AUDIENCE: Everyone should be doing [INAUDIBLE], right. 491 00:21:59,190 --> 00:22:01,468 If that person's arguing that, they're not 492 00:22:01,468 --> 00:22:02,676 giving you a good experience. 493 00:22:02,676 --> 00:22:03,513 They're letting you down. 494 00:22:03,513 --> 00:22:04,221 PROFESSOR: Right. 495 00:22:04,221 --> 00:22:06,630 They're not fighting as hard as they can. 496 00:22:06,630 --> 00:22:08,790 And even Bernie describes this, right. 497 00:22:08,790 --> 00:22:15,060 The whole idea is what happens if you give somebody 498 00:22:15,060 --> 00:22:16,410 a chance to-- 499 00:22:16,410 --> 00:22:18,900 it's like, I could have played this game optimally 500 00:22:18,900 --> 00:22:22,310 because I know this game so well and have beaten you 501 00:22:22,310 --> 00:22:23,340 into the ground. 502 00:22:23,340 --> 00:22:25,530 But I'm just going to-- 503 00:22:25,530 --> 00:22:27,690 instead of handicapping myself, which 504 00:22:27,690 --> 00:22:30,000 is a sort of public declaration that this 505 00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:31,740 is how I'm going to be doing it, I'm just 506 00:22:31,740 --> 00:22:33,590 not going to play optimally. 507 00:22:33,590 --> 00:22:37,300 Then I think both Dave Sirlin and Bernie DeKoven are actually 508 00:22:37,300 --> 00:22:37,890 in agreement. 509 00:22:37,890 --> 00:22:39,280 This is not a good way to play. 510 00:22:42,090 --> 00:22:45,210 Because the person who is getting the benefit of that 511 00:22:45,210 --> 00:22:49,380 feels cheated of experience as well. 512 00:22:49,380 --> 00:22:52,412 Did I see? 513 00:22:52,412 --> 00:22:54,703 AUDIENCE: I think I need to clarify that oftentimes you 514 00:22:54,703 --> 00:22:58,434 can use [INAUDIBLE]. 515 00:22:58,434 --> 00:23:01,416 So in a game with really defined strategies, 516 00:23:01,416 --> 00:23:05,964 you could sort of be going for some strategy 517 00:23:05,964 --> 00:23:08,910 that you believe to be sort of optimal because you wanted 518 00:23:08,910 --> 00:23:11,350 [INAUDIBLE] other players that you were like-- 519 00:23:11,350 --> 00:23:14,580 and it could be, be and you sort of 520 00:23:14,580 --> 00:23:16,963 are [INAUDIBLE] along the lines of, oh you 521 00:23:16,963 --> 00:23:19,380 [INAUDIBLE] possibilities of the game in there. 522 00:23:19,380 --> 00:23:22,580 So you can just try hard and you can do that. 523 00:23:22,580 --> 00:23:25,320 I think you're actually working toward that purpose 524 00:23:25,320 --> 00:23:26,570 if you do something like-- 525 00:23:26,570 --> 00:23:28,820 you're not going to try a strategy that's totally bad, 526 00:23:28,820 --> 00:23:30,650 but who knows. 527 00:23:30,650 --> 00:23:33,840 PROFESSOR: You know, I do that a lot and I always 528 00:23:33,840 --> 00:23:36,090 feel compelled to publicly declare 529 00:23:36,090 --> 00:23:38,160 that this is what I'm doing. 530 00:23:38,160 --> 00:23:40,230 I think because I don't want anyone 531 00:23:40,230 --> 00:23:42,480 to think that I'm stupid. 532 00:23:42,480 --> 00:23:46,652 I really do something bad [INAUDIBLE] 533 00:23:46,652 --> 00:23:49,820 AUDIENCE: A lot of times when I play a board game, 534 00:23:49,820 --> 00:23:52,590 I play with people were really, really good at understanding 535 00:23:52,590 --> 00:23:55,560 and making board games, too. 536 00:23:55,560 --> 00:23:58,980 If I think that something might be an interesting way 537 00:23:58,980 --> 00:24:00,730 to play that game, I'll say it out 538 00:24:00,730 --> 00:24:03,600 and then it become more of a cooperative, 539 00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:04,767 how could this strategy be-- 540 00:24:04,767 --> 00:24:06,058 PROFESSOR: Let's play this out. 541 00:24:06,058 --> 00:24:07,660 Let's see what happens, right. 542 00:24:07,660 --> 00:24:09,120 A learning experience for everyone. 543 00:24:09,120 --> 00:24:11,075 AUDIENCE: Well, what would you have done from my shoes? 544 00:24:11,075 --> 00:24:12,264 It's like at this point we're not even playing to win, 545 00:24:12,264 --> 00:24:13,763 we're playing to develop a strategy. 546 00:24:13,763 --> 00:24:14,780 PROFESSOR: Yeah. 547 00:24:14,780 --> 00:24:18,330 AUDIENCE: Yeah, I was thinking [INAUDIBLE] 548 00:24:18,330 --> 00:24:21,042 you're not necessarily playing to maximize your fun right now. 549 00:24:21,042 --> 00:24:24,970 You're playing to explore [INAUDIBLE] the game has. 550 00:24:24,970 --> 00:24:29,326 And maybe find a bigger strategical future later on, 551 00:24:29,326 --> 00:24:31,900 I guess. 552 00:24:31,900 --> 00:24:34,930 PROFESSOR: And I think that's in keeping with what Bernie 553 00:24:34,930 --> 00:24:38,520 has tried to write about. 554 00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:41,040 He ends up the chapter by talking about how 555 00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:42,030 you are scoring, right. 556 00:24:42,030 --> 00:24:46,660 How you're deciding what a win is. 557 00:24:46,660 --> 00:24:48,810 And in this particular case, it's a situation 558 00:24:48,810 --> 00:24:51,130 that we're describing, a win is learning 559 00:24:51,130 --> 00:24:54,790 how a new, untested strategy is going to play out. 560 00:24:54,790 --> 00:24:59,610 It becomes less about who is the individual who's actually 561 00:24:59,610 --> 00:25:02,670 winning and more about, are we getting something new 562 00:25:02,670 --> 00:25:04,650 from our understanding of this game? 563 00:25:04,650 --> 00:25:09,960 Which can be really entertaining. 564 00:25:09,960 --> 00:25:13,410 Whereas I think Dave Sirlin, not quite so willing to let that 565 00:25:13,410 --> 00:25:15,157 go. 566 00:25:15,157 --> 00:25:17,240 He's a little bit more adamant that, no you should 567 00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:20,280 be winning based on the definition of the rule set, 568 00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:23,220 not based on something like extra community 569 00:25:23,220 --> 00:25:24,169 arrived position. 570 00:25:24,169 --> 00:25:25,710 And Bernie DeKoven is trying to fight 571 00:25:25,710 --> 00:25:29,100 for, no community determines when the conditions are fine. 572 00:25:29,100 --> 00:25:32,612 In fact, there are many good reasons for you to go for that. 573 00:25:34,929 --> 00:25:35,970 Different points of view. 574 00:25:35,970 --> 00:25:39,233 I'm not saying that anyone is [INAUDIBLE] about that. 575 00:25:39,233 --> 00:25:40,774 AUDIENCE: I mean, I think if you want 576 00:25:40,774 --> 00:25:44,034 to maximize-- like in the long term-- your chances of winning 577 00:25:44,034 --> 00:25:45,230 has to be [INAUDIBLE]. 578 00:25:45,230 --> 00:25:46,480 PROFESSOR: Oh yes, absolutely. 579 00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:48,500 Yeah, I will agree. 580 00:25:48,500 --> 00:25:51,590 If you're a professional player who is in a team, 581 00:25:51,590 --> 00:25:53,340 you are probably going to be working 582 00:25:53,340 --> 00:25:54,940 with your teammates a lot of times-- 583 00:25:54,940 --> 00:25:57,230 not to determine who is better at the game, 584 00:25:57,230 --> 00:25:59,889 but to try to make everybody else play better, right? 585 00:25:59,889 --> 00:26:01,680 And there's just two different perspectives 586 00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:03,320 on how you arrive at that. 587 00:26:03,320 --> 00:26:06,780 One is to always play as hard as you 588 00:26:06,780 --> 00:26:10,590 can so that everyone has to sort of rise to the occasion. 589 00:26:10,590 --> 00:26:12,070 And the other way is just-- 590 00:26:12,070 --> 00:26:13,920 no, it's OK to do things like experiment. 591 00:26:13,920 --> 00:26:16,200 It's OK to do things like handicaps. 592 00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:17,610 It's OK to do things like-- 593 00:26:17,610 --> 00:26:19,100 I'm just going to play-- 594 00:26:19,100 --> 00:26:21,890 I was just playing a game recently 595 00:26:21,890 --> 00:26:24,090 where like I'm going to do a sub-optimal strategy 596 00:26:24,090 --> 00:26:26,160 on purpose, just to see whether my opponent's 597 00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:27,930 capable of fighting it off. 598 00:26:27,930 --> 00:26:29,830 Because it's just ridiculous. 599 00:26:29,830 --> 00:26:32,877 So yeah-- I had fun even though I didn't win. 600 00:26:35,580 --> 00:26:39,760 So today I was thinking of going through three games. 601 00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:40,857 But what time is it now? 602 00:26:40,857 --> 00:26:41,440 AUDIENCE: 3:00 603 00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:42,050 PROFESSOR: It's almost 3:00? 604 00:26:42,050 --> 00:26:43,841 OK, so I think we're going to do two games. 605 00:26:43,841 --> 00:26:47,215 I'm going to very quickly have a discussion about what 606 00:26:47,215 --> 00:26:48,840 are all the different versions of Mafia 607 00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:49,990 that people have played. 608 00:26:49,990 --> 00:26:52,406 How many of you have played a version of Mafia or Werewolf 609 00:26:52,406 --> 00:26:53,780 or something like that? 610 00:26:53,780 --> 00:26:54,280 No? 611 00:26:54,280 --> 00:26:54,910 Everybody? 612 00:26:54,910 --> 00:26:55,430 OK. 613 00:26:55,430 --> 00:27:00,360 All right, let me quickly give a description. 614 00:27:00,360 --> 00:27:04,080 The general framework of these games everybody gets a card, 615 00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:06,000 and the card gives you a role. 616 00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:08,970 These are usually just regular playing cards where-- 617 00:27:08,970 --> 00:27:12,180 one version that I have played is 618 00:27:12,180 --> 00:27:16,110 that if you have a king or queen or a jack of clubs, 619 00:27:16,110 --> 00:27:17,300 you are mafia. 620 00:27:17,300 --> 00:27:18,870 And it's your job to kill everybody 621 00:27:18,870 --> 00:27:21,940 else who didn't receive a king, queen, or jack of clubs. 622 00:27:24,610 --> 00:27:27,450 And then everybody else is a villager 623 00:27:27,450 --> 00:27:31,350 whose job is to figure out who are the mafia players. 624 00:27:31,350 --> 00:27:37,410 So everyone closes their eyes and open their eyes 625 00:27:37,410 --> 00:27:40,260 based on the cues of a person who is like a moderator. 626 00:27:40,260 --> 00:27:44,400 If I ran the game here in class, I would be the moderator. 627 00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:48,490 And I'd say like, nighttime, everyone closes their eyes. 628 00:27:48,490 --> 00:27:50,100 Mafia awakes. 629 00:27:50,100 --> 00:27:53,509 And then the mafia do not say anything, 630 00:27:53,509 --> 00:27:56,050 but they can communicate with things like gestures and moving 631 00:27:56,050 --> 00:27:56,940 their head. 632 00:27:56,940 --> 00:28:00,600 And they're basically sort of using body language to vote 633 00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:03,310 on who dies that night-- 634 00:28:03,310 --> 00:28:05,720 usually by nodding, or by pointing, 635 00:28:05,720 --> 00:28:07,270 or something like that. 636 00:28:07,270 --> 00:28:09,160 And then everyone closes their eyes. 637 00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:11,690 The moderator declares who dies. 638 00:28:11,690 --> 00:28:15,090 Everyone opens their eyes again, and that person 639 00:28:15,090 --> 00:28:17,270 reveals their card. 640 00:28:17,270 --> 00:28:21,990 And that shows whether they were mafia or not. 641 00:28:21,990 --> 00:28:25,590 And the whole idea is that in between rounds 642 00:28:25,590 --> 00:28:27,390 everyone speaks freely. 643 00:28:27,390 --> 00:28:29,710 And so there are accusations that are flying around, 644 00:28:29,710 --> 00:28:34,080 and suspicions, and exchanging of very, very 645 00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:36,090 tangential evidence-- like, I thought 646 00:28:36,090 --> 00:28:38,130 I heard rustling over there. 647 00:28:38,130 --> 00:28:40,254 You know, and it's like-- 648 00:28:40,254 --> 00:28:42,420 you know, that could be the mafia person just trying 649 00:28:42,420 --> 00:28:43,544 to throw you off the track. 650 00:28:43,544 --> 00:28:46,030 That could be somebody who is actually the villager. 651 00:28:46,030 --> 00:28:49,740 Only the mafia know for sure who is who. 652 00:28:49,740 --> 00:28:51,670 And then there are other hidden roles. 653 00:28:51,670 --> 00:28:54,300 So what are some other variants that you've played? 654 00:28:54,300 --> 00:28:55,262 Yeah? 655 00:28:55,262 --> 00:28:56,705 [INAUDIBLE] 656 00:28:56,705 --> 00:28:59,102 AUDIENCE: So I've played where the card doesn't 657 00:28:59,102 --> 00:29:00,585 get revealed when you die. 658 00:29:00,585 --> 00:29:01,746 PROFESSOR: Oh, yeah? 659 00:29:01,746 --> 00:29:03,937 AUDIENCE: And one particular other thing 660 00:29:03,937 --> 00:29:07,700 that-- like all sorts of different roles, as well. 661 00:29:07,700 --> 00:29:12,960 And the voting mechanic for who gets killed-- 662 00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:18,514 so I've seen it played where people decide 663 00:29:18,514 --> 00:29:20,630 when the discussion is over. 664 00:29:20,630 --> 00:29:21,810 And then they little vote. 665 00:29:21,810 --> 00:29:24,018 And then the person who has the majority gets killed. 666 00:29:24,018 --> 00:29:25,425 PROFESSOR: They vote by printing? 667 00:29:25,425 --> 00:29:26,050 AUDIENCE: Yeah. 668 00:29:26,050 --> 00:29:26,954 PROFESSOR: Yeah. 669 00:29:26,954 --> 00:29:28,620 AUDIENCE: But the way that I always play 670 00:29:28,620 --> 00:29:32,150 is that all it takes for someone on the block 671 00:29:32,150 --> 00:29:33,625 is to have someone say, I'm putting 672 00:29:33,625 --> 00:29:35,500 that person on the block, and another persons 673 00:29:35,500 --> 00:29:37,420 says "seconded". 674 00:29:37,420 --> 00:29:40,025 And at that point, until a vote happens, 675 00:29:40,025 --> 00:29:41,650 you can't put anyone else on the block. 676 00:29:41,650 --> 00:29:42,774 PROFESSOR: Oh, interesting. 677 00:29:42,774 --> 00:29:45,654 AUDIENCE: So either everyone will vote and will say, OK, 678 00:29:45,654 --> 00:29:47,320 this person-- and a majority will result 679 00:29:47,320 --> 00:29:52,510 in a kill, at which point it's night instantly-- 680 00:29:52,510 --> 00:29:54,810 and that's that day. 681 00:29:54,810 --> 00:29:58,654 Or they fail to kill that person, 682 00:29:58,654 --> 00:30:01,150 and then people can feel free to like put up more people-- 683 00:30:01,150 --> 00:30:04,040 like to just point out another person which they like-- 684 00:30:04,040 --> 00:30:05,237 no, I'm like [INAUDIBLE]. 685 00:30:05,237 --> 00:30:06,570 PROFESSOR: You had your hand up. 686 00:30:06,570 --> 00:30:08,140 AUDIENCE: The two most basic roles, 687 00:30:08,140 --> 00:30:11,554 in addition to like mafia and villager-- that I've 688 00:30:11,554 --> 00:30:14,220 seen in pretty much every game-- is the medic and the detective. 689 00:30:14,220 --> 00:30:16,880 The medic, every night, gets to point at someone, 690 00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:19,450 and if the mafia were trying to hit that person, 691 00:30:19,450 --> 00:30:22,695 that person stays alive. 692 00:30:22,695 --> 00:30:26,020 The detective, every night, gets to basically point at someone 693 00:30:26,020 --> 00:30:27,354 while everyone else is sleeping. 694 00:30:27,354 --> 00:30:29,853 And the moderator will either nod his head saying, yes, he's 695 00:30:29,853 --> 00:30:30,910 mafia or no he's not. 696 00:30:34,896 --> 00:30:37,342 AUDIENCE: So I have sort of a variant of Mafia 697 00:30:37,342 --> 00:30:46,514 that's at MIT, mostly [INAUDIBLE] called Live Action 698 00:30:46,514 --> 00:30:47,810 Mafia. 699 00:30:47,810 --> 00:30:50,510 And the way this works is one day 700 00:30:50,510 --> 00:30:52,200 is one day-- so like often there's 701 00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:54,790 [INAUDIBLE] where like mafia lasts one [INAUDIBLE]. 702 00:30:54,790 --> 00:30:58,850 But in this version, the mafia can kill someone once per day 703 00:30:58,850 --> 00:31:01,690 by tapping them on the shoulder and saying bang. 704 00:31:01,690 --> 00:31:03,970 And essentially, because you obviously-- 705 00:31:03,970 --> 00:31:05,680 like in this game, you couldn't do this. 706 00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:07,130 If you're mafia, you couldn't kill someone 707 00:31:07,130 --> 00:31:08,524 in front of other Mafia players. 708 00:31:08,524 --> 00:31:10,076 Because then they will see you kill that person, 709 00:31:10,076 --> 00:31:12,201 and will tell everyone that you killed that person. 710 00:31:12,201 --> 00:31:14,500 And then you'll be lynched for it. 711 00:31:14,500 --> 00:31:17,700 It's an [INAUDIBLE] game of-- 712 00:31:17,700 --> 00:31:21,160 often times you try to figure it as like-- 713 00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:23,474 people like [INAUDIBLE] so they get 714 00:31:23,474 --> 00:31:25,140 friends to lie for them about where they 715 00:31:25,140 --> 00:31:27,160 were in that location there. 716 00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:30,100 In one of the games recently there, 717 00:31:30,100 --> 00:31:32,780 someone said, oh, I was working on my lab 718 00:31:32,780 --> 00:31:35,010 until like 4:30 or something. 719 00:31:35,010 --> 00:31:36,926 And then someone found out who the partner was 720 00:31:36,926 --> 00:31:38,301 in that lab, emailed the partner, 721 00:31:38,301 --> 00:31:41,190 and the partner said they got out at 4:00. 722 00:31:41,190 --> 00:31:42,970 And this kill was at 4:15. 723 00:31:42,970 --> 00:31:45,810 That person was lynched. 724 00:31:45,810 --> 00:31:51,070 And so there are a number of special rules and powers, 725 00:31:51,070 --> 00:31:52,970 but like [INAUDIBLE] the game, where 726 00:31:52,970 --> 00:31:55,410 the focus is on actually like figuring where 727 00:31:55,410 --> 00:31:57,198 people were like [INAUDIBLE]. 728 00:32:01,082 --> 00:32:02,540 PROFESSOR: One thing that I think-- 729 00:32:02,540 --> 00:32:05,800 one reason why that works well on the MIT campus 730 00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:08,960 is because it's a fairly small campus compared 731 00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:11,780 to other university campuses, even in Massachusetts. 732 00:32:11,780 --> 00:32:13,887 And even when you're off campus, you 733 00:32:13,887 --> 00:32:18,230 are often in close proximity to a lot of other MIT people. 734 00:32:18,230 --> 00:32:21,100 Do people know who else is playing in this game-- 735 00:32:21,100 --> 00:32:24,610 in a round of Live Action Mafia? 736 00:32:24,610 --> 00:32:26,426 Do you know who [INAUDIBLE]? 737 00:32:26,426 --> 00:32:28,050 AUDIENCE: Occasionally there are some-- 738 00:32:28,050 --> 00:32:31,770 there are like [INAUDIBLE]. 739 00:32:31,770 --> 00:32:32,824 Like most of it's random. 740 00:32:32,824 --> 00:32:34,210 There's people in campus. 741 00:32:34,210 --> 00:32:36,922 There's always people playing at-- there's 742 00:32:36,922 --> 00:32:38,997 a fraternity across the river in Brookline. 743 00:32:38,997 --> 00:32:40,190 They're [INAUDIBLE]. 744 00:32:40,190 --> 00:32:42,687 And so it's when a kill happens there, 745 00:32:42,687 --> 00:32:44,770 and so immediately everyone's trying to figure out 746 00:32:44,770 --> 00:32:47,700 who was on the MIT campus. 747 00:32:47,700 --> 00:32:49,670 [INAUDIBLE] people are trying figure out 748 00:32:49,670 --> 00:32:52,484 who couldn't have gotten back there in time. 749 00:32:52,484 --> 00:32:53,192 PROFESSOR: Right. 750 00:32:53,192 --> 00:32:56,640 That's nice because it helps you do the detective work. 751 00:32:56,640 --> 00:32:58,350 AUDIENCE: I used to play, but I'm not 752 00:32:58,350 --> 00:33:00,620 friends with like a lot of people who are in the game. 753 00:33:00,620 --> 00:33:02,120 I just had a couple of friends going 754 00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:03,400 who always invited me to play. 755 00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:05,401 And so I usually get lynched pretty quickly, 756 00:33:05,401 --> 00:33:07,900 because because they'd just be like, we don't know this kid. 757 00:33:07,900 --> 00:33:10,592 So long. 758 00:33:10,592 --> 00:33:13,030 AUDIENCE: My biggest problem with Mafia is like even just 759 00:33:13,030 --> 00:33:17,740 the like the table [INAUDIBLE] like there's like no-- 760 00:33:17,740 --> 00:33:19,740 AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE] Mafia, if you don't know-- 761 00:33:19,740 --> 00:33:20,540 AUDIENCE: Yeah. 762 00:33:20,540 --> 00:33:22,339 AUDIENCE: And so like what will end up 763 00:33:22,339 --> 00:33:24,380 happening based on the first round it like, John, 764 00:33:24,380 --> 00:33:25,450 you look suspicious. 765 00:33:25,450 --> 00:33:26,820 I think John's mafia. 766 00:33:26,820 --> 00:33:27,970 Everyone vote yes. 767 00:33:27,970 --> 00:33:30,104 And then everyone votes yes, and he dies. 768 00:33:30,104 --> 00:33:32,970 And he's sitting there like, I'm sorry, what? 769 00:33:32,970 --> 00:33:33,691 PROFESSOR: Yeah. 770 00:33:33,691 --> 00:33:34,190 That's-- 771 00:33:34,190 --> 00:33:38,410 AUDIENCE: That's kind of how the game [INAUDIBLE] 772 00:33:38,410 --> 00:33:39,565 PROFESSOR: Sorry? 773 00:33:39,565 --> 00:33:40,440 AUDIENCE: I had more. 774 00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:42,800 AUDIENCE: Oh, sorry. 775 00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:44,884 AUDIENCE: I was going to say that a couple 776 00:33:44,884 --> 00:33:46,550 of interesting variants I've played with 777 00:33:46,550 --> 00:33:50,410 are like where you have things like the fool, where his job is 778 00:33:50,410 --> 00:33:55,720 to try and get killed as Mafia, or an innocent, where 779 00:33:55,720 --> 00:33:57,970 if the town accidentally kills them, 780 00:33:57,970 --> 00:33:59,770 then they just like automatically lose, 781 00:33:59,770 --> 00:34:01,572 and things like that. 782 00:34:01,572 --> 00:34:03,530 AUDIENCE: I think the most confusing variant is 783 00:34:03,530 --> 00:34:08,510 the [INAUDIBLE] where they have the mafia, the medic, 784 00:34:08,510 --> 00:34:10,867 the detective-- then they also have, I think, 785 00:34:10,867 --> 00:34:13,200 the serial killer, who is supposed to be the last person 786 00:34:13,200 --> 00:34:17,104 standing, and then the arsonist-- 787 00:34:17,104 --> 00:34:19,670 I can't remember his goal. 788 00:34:19,670 --> 00:34:24,528 Then there was a transporter who could switch targets. 789 00:34:24,528 --> 00:34:26,494 You know, like if the mafia picks one person, 790 00:34:26,494 --> 00:34:28,927 and the transporter hasn't been picked, 791 00:34:28,927 --> 00:34:31,800 that other person can switch the mafia's turn. 792 00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:38,230 And then there was a seer who can talk to dead people. 793 00:34:38,230 --> 00:34:41,730 PROFESSOR: Who specifies the roles? 794 00:34:41,730 --> 00:34:44,520 Is it just like a stable set of rules on an online server? 795 00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:48,073 Or is it like every round has this set of check boxes? 796 00:34:48,073 --> 00:34:50,659 AUDIENCE: I think that how it works 797 00:34:50,659 --> 00:34:53,240 is that you choose what type of game that you want. 798 00:34:53,240 --> 00:34:54,212 PROFESSOR: Oh, I see. 799 00:34:54,212 --> 00:34:56,271 So you're setting up a little lobby for this-- 800 00:34:56,271 --> 00:34:56,770 OK. 801 00:34:56,770 --> 00:34:57,270 I see. 802 00:34:57,270 --> 00:34:57,950 OK. 803 00:34:57,950 --> 00:35:00,450 AUDIENCE: One of the funny ones that I played-- like there's 804 00:35:00,450 --> 00:35:03,170 one that was called Epic Mafia. 805 00:35:03,170 --> 00:35:07,151 It's actually like imbalance, but it's still fun. 806 00:35:07,151 --> 00:35:10,310 It's a crazy cop, who always-- 807 00:35:10,310 --> 00:35:12,980 so there's basically three cops and a mafia. 808 00:35:12,980 --> 00:35:14,790 And the cops don't know which cop they are. 809 00:35:14,790 --> 00:35:17,123 There's a crazy cop who always gets everything inverted. 810 00:35:17,123 --> 00:35:18,270 There's a regular cop. 811 00:35:18,270 --> 00:35:22,230 And then there's a cop who like always sees everything 812 00:35:22,230 --> 00:35:25,604 as truthful, or always sees everything innocent 813 00:35:25,604 --> 00:35:26,520 or everything as not-- 814 00:35:26,520 --> 00:35:28,810 I don't remember which. 815 00:35:28,810 --> 00:35:31,420 It's actually really unfair for the mafia [INAUDIBLE] 816 00:35:31,420 --> 00:35:32,710 where you just like say, this is what I got. 817 00:35:32,710 --> 00:35:35,190 And then someone dies, and then you say this is what I got. 818 00:35:35,190 --> 00:35:36,565 And then, basically, you can just 819 00:35:36,565 --> 00:35:38,240 piece together who is lying. 820 00:35:38,240 --> 00:35:40,839 But it's interesting. 821 00:35:40,839 --> 00:35:42,610 PROFESSOR: [INAUDIBLE] 822 00:35:42,610 --> 00:35:44,450 AUDIENCE: Yeah, I was going to say. 823 00:35:44,450 --> 00:35:46,830 [INAUDIBLE] the game before that. 824 00:35:46,830 --> 00:35:48,720 There's a game where someone will swap God 825 00:35:48,720 --> 00:35:50,866 with one of the players. 826 00:35:50,866 --> 00:35:54,313 And decided to allow this to proceed. 827 00:35:54,313 --> 00:35:55,312 AUDIENCE: Wait, hold on. 828 00:35:55,312 --> 00:35:57,096 AUDIENCE: Did God [INAUDIBLE]? 829 00:35:57,096 --> 00:35:59,089 AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE] 830 00:35:59,089 --> 00:35:59,630 PROFESSOR: OK 831 00:35:59,630 --> 00:36:01,190 AUDIENCE: So this person role-swaps God with one 832 00:36:01,190 --> 00:36:02,230 of the players. 833 00:36:02,230 --> 00:36:03,960 PROFESSOR: Oh, OK. 834 00:36:03,960 --> 00:36:06,232 AUDIENCE: And so the God's role became a villager. 835 00:36:06,232 --> 00:36:08,690 The moderator became-- it was like the moderator's role was 836 00:36:08,690 --> 00:36:10,940 now a villager, and like one of the random villagers-- 837 00:36:10,940 --> 00:36:12,110 they were all just now God. 838 00:36:12,110 --> 00:36:13,580 PROFESSOR: OK. 839 00:36:13,580 --> 00:36:16,846 AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE] 840 00:36:16,846 --> 00:36:18,070 AUDIENCE: They're like-- 841 00:36:18,070 --> 00:36:18,750 Yes. 842 00:36:18,750 --> 00:36:21,020 And they're like this person who has now 843 00:36:21,020 --> 00:36:22,790 the new God made a bet with the player who 844 00:36:22,790 --> 00:36:24,498 was the head of the mafia that they could 845 00:36:24,498 --> 00:36:25,884 live until the end of game. 846 00:36:25,884 --> 00:36:27,800 And after it's money, like 10 different people 847 00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:28,425 won this thing. 848 00:36:32,420 --> 00:36:39,520 AUDIENCE: So the different aggregates of roles 849 00:36:39,520 --> 00:36:41,740 happen more or less-- 850 00:36:41,740 --> 00:36:45,390 not by accident, but it's not like someone-- 851 00:36:45,390 --> 00:36:47,740 it's not like there are standards. 852 00:36:47,740 --> 00:36:50,820 It's like you get together with the group that's playing, 853 00:36:50,820 --> 00:36:51,810 and then you decide what goals there are. 854 00:36:51,810 --> 00:36:54,143 Or someone is like, oh, I thought about this beforehand, 855 00:36:54,143 --> 00:36:57,500 and I have some set up I think would be really cool. 856 00:36:57,500 --> 00:36:59,780 So my brother once put together a set up like that, 857 00:36:59,780 --> 00:37:05,950 which had I believe 17 people-- 858 00:37:05,950 --> 00:37:09,426 three of which vanilla villagers with-- 859 00:37:09,426 --> 00:37:13,930 I'm not sure whether it was four or five different sides. 860 00:37:13,930 --> 00:37:15,130 PROFESSOR: Factions. 861 00:37:15,130 --> 00:37:17,100 AUDIENCE: So there's like four or five different factions. 862 00:37:17,100 --> 00:37:18,940 So they were just playing like-- there's like mafia, 863 00:37:18,940 --> 00:37:20,280 and then there's like werewolves, 864 00:37:20,280 --> 00:37:21,655 which are identical to the mafia, 865 00:37:21,655 --> 00:37:23,660 and also get a kill at night. 866 00:37:23,660 --> 00:37:26,100 And then there's the serial killer, who's bulletproof, 867 00:37:26,100 --> 00:37:29,130 so he can't get killed at night. 868 00:37:29,130 --> 00:37:31,570 And he was also a separate faction 869 00:37:31,570 --> 00:37:33,169 trying to kill everyone else. 870 00:37:33,169 --> 00:37:34,710 And then there's the vigilante, who's 871 00:37:34,710 --> 00:37:39,430 like a good guy who also gets a kill at night. 872 00:37:39,430 --> 00:37:41,950 And so this game, it was actually, 873 00:37:41,950 --> 00:37:43,680 surprisingly, very good. 874 00:37:43,680 --> 00:37:47,565 Because everyone basically had a role, 875 00:37:47,565 --> 00:37:49,640 so no one was unhappy about that. 876 00:37:49,640 --> 00:37:52,090 And everyone more or less tried-- 877 00:37:52,090 --> 00:37:54,766 and the game is quick, because even though it's 17 people, 878 00:37:54,766 --> 00:37:56,224 you've got like four or five people 879 00:37:56,224 --> 00:37:58,420 dying every round for the first couple of rounds. 880 00:38:01,350 --> 00:38:04,670 PROFESSOR: I'm trying to figure out why there are so 881 00:38:04,670 --> 00:38:07,260 many variants on Mafia. 882 00:38:07,260 --> 00:38:13,890 There's something about Mafia or Werewolf-- or any of the names 883 00:38:13,890 --> 00:38:16,170 that people use-- that seems to lend itself 884 00:38:16,170 --> 00:38:20,110 to people coming up with new variants and then adopting it. 885 00:38:20,110 --> 00:38:21,840 I mean, clearly it makes sense for-- 886 00:38:21,840 --> 00:38:24,300 you need to be able to have a large group of people 887 00:38:24,300 --> 00:38:26,106 agree on the roles before it starts. 888 00:38:26,106 --> 00:38:28,320 So I'm not so confused about that. 889 00:38:28,320 --> 00:38:29,644 I'm wondering why Mafia-- 890 00:38:29,644 --> 00:38:32,145 AUDIENCE: I think, one, it's really fast to play through, 891 00:38:32,145 --> 00:38:34,490 which makes it very easy to playtest. 892 00:38:34,490 --> 00:38:38,730 And then, two, it's also just really, really easy to extend. 893 00:38:38,730 --> 00:38:40,230 You could always make your own role, 894 00:38:40,230 --> 00:38:41,860 but you honestly don't need to. 895 00:38:41,860 --> 00:38:43,890 There's at least a hundred different roles. 896 00:38:43,890 --> 00:38:46,070 You could just like eenie-meenie-miney-mo and like 897 00:38:46,070 --> 00:38:47,233 aggregate into a game. 898 00:38:47,233 --> 00:38:49,601 PROFESSOR: All right. 899 00:38:49,601 --> 00:38:51,389 AUDIENCE: I was going to say that it's 900 00:38:51,389 --> 00:38:56,112 sort of boring for the villagers that they're just 901 00:38:56,112 --> 00:38:57,560 getting kicked out one by one. 902 00:38:57,560 --> 00:38:59,260 PROFESSOR: So there's a flaw in the game 903 00:38:59,260 --> 00:39:02,045 that every one of these variants is trying to address, which 904 00:39:02,045 --> 00:39:03,961 is making things a little bit more interesting 905 00:39:03,961 --> 00:39:05,690 for the poor villagers. 906 00:39:05,690 --> 00:39:09,770 And that's, I think-- 907 00:39:09,770 --> 00:39:12,890 the fact that it's very clear that all the rules are just 908 00:39:12,890 --> 00:39:16,060 imposed by the people in the room-- 909 00:39:16,060 --> 00:39:19,220 definitely that's a Mafia tournament as far as I know. 910 00:39:19,220 --> 00:39:21,270 I guess we could have Mafia tournaments spring up 911 00:39:21,270 --> 00:39:23,810 in the middle of conventions and stuff like that. 912 00:39:23,810 --> 00:39:26,510 But they don't seem to last very long. 913 00:39:26,510 --> 00:39:30,020 It's hard to imagine a version of Mafia 914 00:39:30,020 --> 00:39:33,230 where you are in direct contact with the person who 915 00:39:33,230 --> 00:39:35,100 established the rules for the round 916 00:39:35,100 --> 00:39:36,350 that you're playing right now. 917 00:39:36,350 --> 00:39:39,480 So it's very easy to just think that there's 918 00:39:39,480 --> 00:39:42,010 no canonical set of rules. 919 00:39:42,010 --> 00:39:45,010 AUDIENCE: I was just reminded of some things. 920 00:39:45,010 --> 00:39:47,900 There was one time where there was 921 00:39:47,900 --> 00:39:55,770 a game of Mafia where God failed to give out any Mafia cards. 922 00:39:55,770 --> 00:39:56,532 PROFESSOR: Oh. 923 00:39:56,532 --> 00:39:59,065 AUDIENCE: Like, he cheated, as far as that goes. 924 00:39:59,065 --> 00:40:00,940 And so god chose someone to kill every night, 925 00:40:00,940 --> 00:40:04,080 and pretended that there was a mafia doing. 926 00:40:04,080 --> 00:40:08,717 And so the group started as probably around 12 people. 927 00:40:08,717 --> 00:40:10,842 And at around five people, they were like, OK, this 928 00:40:10,842 --> 00:40:14,704 is impossible-- as in, the previous [INAUDIBLE] 929 00:40:14,704 --> 00:40:16,620 they were like, OK, if this happens then blah. 930 00:40:16,620 --> 00:40:18,338 And if this happens, then blah. 931 00:40:18,338 --> 00:40:20,796 And then they killed someone, and that person was innocent, 932 00:40:20,796 --> 00:40:23,550 even though they had to be guilty in order 933 00:40:23,550 --> 00:40:25,830 for it to make sense. 934 00:40:25,830 --> 00:40:27,380 But they were like, what's going on? 935 00:40:27,380 --> 00:40:27,719 PROFESSOR: I don't know. 936 00:40:27,719 --> 00:40:29,844 I think that's the sort of cheating that we'll need 937 00:40:29,844 --> 00:40:31,380 to go to actually describing. 938 00:40:31,380 --> 00:40:33,370 Maybe we should try that once in a while. 939 00:40:33,370 --> 00:40:36,217 AUDIENCE: You know, they were like pretty mad at the person. 940 00:40:36,217 --> 00:40:37,258 PROFESSOR: I can imagine. 941 00:40:37,258 --> 00:40:38,005 I can imagine. 942 00:40:38,005 --> 00:40:38,899 Yeah, yeah. 943 00:40:38,899 --> 00:40:41,133 Maybe that's the counter argument. 944 00:40:41,133 --> 00:40:42,550 AUDIENCE: You are never god again. 945 00:40:42,550 --> 00:40:45,008 AUDIENCE: So I don't actually know what the game is called, 946 00:40:45,008 --> 00:40:46,050 but we call it spies. 947 00:40:46,050 --> 00:40:48,710 It's basically there's a certain number of spies, 948 00:40:48,710 --> 00:40:50,652 and a certain number of resistance players. 949 00:40:50,652 --> 00:40:51,576 It's very similar to Mafia. 950 00:40:51,576 --> 00:40:52,038 AUDIENCE: Resistance. 951 00:40:52,038 --> 00:40:52,500 AUDIENCE: Oh, Resistance? 952 00:40:52,500 --> 00:40:53,424 OK. 953 00:40:53,424 --> 00:40:55,740 PROFESSOR: So this is a Mafia type game, yeah. 954 00:40:55,740 --> 00:40:56,906 AUDIENCE: It's called Spies. 955 00:40:56,906 --> 00:40:58,880 It's like the opposite. 956 00:40:58,880 --> 00:41:02,475 It's very similar to Mafia, except that you 957 00:41:02,475 --> 00:41:04,260 have to have a certain number of missions 958 00:41:04,260 --> 00:41:05,220 by putting people on missions. 959 00:41:05,220 --> 00:41:07,380 And the spies try to fail them, and the resistance 960 00:41:07,380 --> 00:41:08,370 is trying to pass them. 961 00:41:11,295 --> 00:41:13,670 And we did something very similar to that, where we had-- 962 00:41:13,670 --> 00:41:15,685 one of our friends left the room for a minute. 963 00:41:15,685 --> 00:41:18,187 And we go, OK guys, next round we're all spies. 964 00:41:18,187 --> 00:41:19,770 And we came up with like pecking order 965 00:41:19,770 --> 00:41:21,757 for who does what at what time. 966 00:41:21,757 --> 00:41:24,090 And we all tried to like blame one kid for being the spy 967 00:41:24,090 --> 00:41:25,300 the entire time. 968 00:41:25,300 --> 00:41:29,320 Then, at the end, we finally managed to get to the point 969 00:41:29,320 --> 00:41:31,790 where everyone had voted for the only person that 970 00:41:31,790 --> 00:41:34,102 was not the spy to be the spy. 971 00:41:34,102 --> 00:41:35,839 We basically just messed the game up 972 00:41:35,839 --> 00:41:37,880 to try and like execute him and have fun with it. 973 00:41:37,880 --> 00:41:38,460 PROFESSOR: Right. 974 00:41:38,460 --> 00:41:40,126 AUDIENCE: But it kind of relates to that 975 00:41:40,126 --> 00:41:41,890 point of taking the rules and-- 976 00:41:41,890 --> 00:41:43,890 PROFESSOR: And Resistance is a little bit easier 977 00:41:43,890 --> 00:41:46,290 to identify that there is actually a set of rules. 978 00:41:46,290 --> 00:41:50,280 Because Resistance is a boxed product with a rulebook in it-- 979 00:41:50,280 --> 00:41:53,700 unlike a lot of other games of Mafia, where you kind of think 980 00:41:53,700 --> 00:41:56,280 things are pretty malleable. 981 00:41:56,280 --> 00:41:59,447 I do want to move on to something else. 982 00:41:59,447 --> 00:42:01,530 But before I get to Lockup, a couple of questions. 983 00:42:01,530 --> 00:42:04,680 If you have a smartphone, try downloading this. 984 00:42:04,680 --> 00:42:11,040 I think it's free on both the Android and the app store, 985 00:42:11,040 --> 00:42:13,750 because we're going to play a couple of rounds of this-- 986 00:42:13,750 --> 00:42:16,980 if the Wi-Fi works in this room. 987 00:42:16,980 --> 00:42:19,912 Which it may not. 988 00:42:19,912 --> 00:42:21,370 AUDIENCE: I really like Resistance, 989 00:42:21,370 --> 00:42:24,960 because there's actual public information which you need. 990 00:42:24,960 --> 00:42:26,670 It's not just, John's guilty. 991 00:42:26,670 --> 00:42:27,540 He's dead now. 992 00:42:27,540 --> 00:42:28,200 Right? 993 00:42:28,200 --> 00:42:30,795 PROFESSOR: You don't just start the game by making stuff up. 994 00:42:30,795 --> 00:42:31,510 AUDIENCE: Yeah. 995 00:42:31,510 --> 00:42:33,760 PROFESSOR: Now, anybody who doesn't have a smartphone, 996 00:42:33,760 --> 00:42:35,640 you're welcome to use mine. 997 00:42:35,640 --> 00:42:38,640 Who would like to? 998 00:42:38,640 --> 00:42:41,440 AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE] 999 00:42:41,440 --> 00:42:42,715 PROFESSOR: Yeah, go ahead. 1000 00:42:42,715 --> 00:42:45,774 AUDIENCE: But yes, I have a chart of Resistance games. 1001 00:42:45,774 --> 00:42:48,690 AUDIENCE: Wait, am I the only one who has [INAUDIBLE]? 1002 00:42:48,690 --> 00:42:51,190 PROFESSOR: Yeah. 1003 00:42:51,190 --> 00:42:53,690 AUDIENCE: You could play [INAUDIBLE]. 1004 00:42:53,690 --> 00:42:55,121 AUDIENCE: You can [INAUDIBLE] 1005 00:42:55,121 --> 00:42:57,983 PROFESSOR: Although, actually, I'm going to get my iPad. 1006 00:42:57,983 --> 00:42:59,414 I'll [INAUDIBLE]. 1007 00:43:11,245 --> 00:43:15,141 [SIDE CONVERSATION] 1008 00:44:25,020 --> 00:44:26,550 PROFESSOR: OK. 1009 00:44:26,550 --> 00:44:35,448 Yeah, SpaceTeam is a game that I want to give a try. 1010 00:44:35,448 --> 00:44:36,765 And we'll see if it works. 1011 00:44:36,765 --> 00:44:38,140 If you are surrounded with people 1012 00:44:38,140 --> 00:44:42,024 who have like the same kind of phone as yours-- like Android 1013 00:44:42,024 --> 00:44:44,060 and iOS are two separate things-- 1014 00:44:44,060 --> 00:44:46,439 you can attempt to do it over Google. 1015 00:44:46,439 --> 00:44:48,355 AUDIENCE: There's some way you can play them-- 1016 00:44:48,355 --> 00:44:49,834 AUDIENCE: I'm not on the Wi-Fi right now. 1017 00:44:49,834 --> 00:44:51,806 AUDIENCE: You can play Android and iPhone together. 1018 00:44:51,806 --> 00:44:52,681 AUDIENCE: Over Wi-Fi. 1019 00:44:52,681 --> 00:44:55,135 If Wi-Fi works in this room. 1020 00:44:55,135 --> 00:44:56,536 AUDIENCE: I have Wi-Fi. 1021 00:44:56,536 --> 00:45:01,233 [SIDE CONVERSATION]