1 00:00:00,090 --> 00:00:02,490 The following content is provided under a Creative 2 00:00:02,490 --> 00:00:04,030 Commons license. 3 00:00:04,030 --> 00:00:06,330 Your support will help MIT OpenCourseWare 4 00:00:06,330 --> 00:00:10,690 continue to offer high quality educational resources for free. 5 00:00:10,690 --> 00:00:13,320 To make a donation or view additional materials 6 00:00:13,320 --> 00:00:17,250 from hundreds of MIT courses, visit MIT OpenCourseWare 7 00:00:17,250 --> 00:00:18,420 at ocw.mit.edu. 8 00:00:20,700 --> 00:00:25,860 PROFESSOR: All right, so this weekend's reading 9 00:00:25,860 --> 00:00:30,319 was met because be giving a YouTube presentation. 10 00:00:30,319 --> 00:00:31,860 Actually it was a Google presentation 11 00:00:31,860 --> 00:00:34,110 that was recorded onto YouTube. 12 00:00:34,110 --> 00:00:36,465 And he's the designer of Pandemic, 13 00:00:36,465 --> 00:00:39,250 he also made the game Forbidden Island, 14 00:00:39,250 --> 00:00:40,346 and I think he also did-- 15 00:00:40,346 --> 00:00:40,846 Desert. 16 00:00:40,846 --> 00:00:44,580 I'm assuming that he did Forbidden Desert. 17 00:00:44,580 --> 00:00:47,687 That's my guess because they're not that different of games. 18 00:00:50,250 --> 00:00:54,630 I mean, these are cooperative games, for the most part. 19 00:00:54,630 --> 00:00:57,030 How many of you have played one of these games? 20 00:00:57,030 --> 00:00:59,121 Forbidden Island, Pandemic-- 21 00:00:59,121 --> 00:01:00,940 Pandemic the board game, specifically. 22 00:01:00,940 --> 00:01:03,360 Yeah, OK. 23 00:01:03,360 --> 00:01:06,810 Pandemic the computer game is a completely different game. 24 00:01:06,810 --> 00:01:07,310 Huh? 25 00:01:10,372 --> 00:01:14,088 AUDIENCE: Pandemic Two, the online game? 26 00:01:14,088 --> 00:01:15,064 PROFESSOR: Yeah. 27 00:01:15,064 --> 00:01:17,500 The one where you shut off Madagascar. 28 00:01:17,500 --> 00:01:18,820 AUDIENCE: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 29 00:01:18,820 --> 00:01:22,000 PROFESSOR: OK, that one is a different game. 30 00:01:22,000 --> 00:01:24,640 It's same title, same concept, right. 31 00:01:24,640 --> 00:01:27,105 I mean, it sort of made sense that they would have 32 00:01:27,105 --> 00:01:28,290 [INAUDIBLE]. 33 00:01:28,290 --> 00:01:30,344 I mean, there's probably more of a similarity 34 00:01:30,344 --> 00:01:32,302 of civilization of board game than civilization 35 00:01:32,302 --> 00:01:34,340 of computer games. 36 00:01:34,340 --> 00:01:37,770 Although the civilization that you play as a board game 37 00:01:37,770 --> 00:01:39,750 nowadays was not the same civilization 38 00:01:39,750 --> 00:01:43,356 the board game that existed when the computer game [INAUDIBLE]. 39 00:01:43,356 --> 00:01:55,410 AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE] 40 00:01:55,410 --> 00:01:59,120 PROFESSOR: The computer game aside, you can play the-- 41 00:01:59,120 --> 00:02:01,590 how many of you basically played a game 42 00:02:01,590 --> 00:02:03,380 where it just turned into one person 43 00:02:03,380 --> 00:02:05,430 telling you to do everything? 44 00:02:05,430 --> 00:02:08,030 That's my [INAUDIBLE]. 45 00:02:08,030 --> 00:02:09,720 How many of you had the same thing 46 00:02:09,720 --> 00:02:15,092 happen with either Forbidden Island or Forbidden Desert? 47 00:02:15,092 --> 00:02:16,870 It happened with you two? 48 00:02:16,870 --> 00:02:18,860 Or were you the one telling people [INAUDIBLE]? 49 00:02:18,860 --> 00:02:21,740 [LAUGHER] 50 00:02:22,515 --> 00:02:23,850 PROFESSOR: So it seems-- 51 00:02:23,850 --> 00:02:26,530 actually, how many people play Forbidden Island or Desert? 52 00:02:26,530 --> 00:02:27,210 OK, only one. 53 00:02:27,210 --> 00:02:28,280 OK. 54 00:02:28,280 --> 00:02:29,200 AUDIENCE: So 100%. 55 00:02:29,200 --> 00:02:31,670 PROFESSOR: So maybe it happens a lot more often. 56 00:02:31,670 --> 00:02:32,420 I don't know. 57 00:02:32,420 --> 00:02:34,770 If find it happens a little bit less often with Island, 58 00:02:34,770 --> 00:02:40,200 but it happens to me every time I play Pandemic. 59 00:02:40,200 --> 00:02:42,900 On one hand I'm usually the one receiving orders, 60 00:02:42,900 --> 00:02:46,920 and I don't mind because I'm not that invested in it. 61 00:02:46,920 --> 00:02:49,570 But on the other hand, I'm not that invested in it. 62 00:02:49,570 --> 00:02:50,890 It kind of like takes me out. 63 00:02:50,890 --> 00:02:53,356 When someone starts telling me, this is what you should do, 64 00:02:53,356 --> 00:02:54,730 clearly this is the optimal move. 65 00:02:54,730 --> 00:02:56,271 This is the thing that you should do. 66 00:02:56,271 --> 00:02:57,430 It's like, that's fine. 67 00:02:57,430 --> 00:02:58,954 I'll do it. 68 00:02:58,954 --> 00:03:00,870 I don't care about this game anymore because I 69 00:03:00,870 --> 00:03:02,622 don't have any [INAUDIBLE]. 70 00:03:02,622 --> 00:03:03,330 But I don't know. 71 00:03:03,330 --> 00:03:03,982 Yeah? 72 00:03:03,982 --> 00:03:06,392 AUDIENCE: So in my experience it's always 73 00:03:06,392 --> 00:03:11,046 been each of the players is doing that. 74 00:03:11,046 --> 00:03:13,420 PROFESSOR: Everybody else is telling you to do something? 75 00:03:13,420 --> 00:03:15,086 AUDIENCE: Every single person is telling 76 00:03:15,086 --> 00:03:18,325 every single other person exactly what to do, 77 00:03:18,325 --> 00:03:21,210 and every person ends up making a decision for themselves. 78 00:03:21,210 --> 00:03:23,554 Just at the end being like, OK guys, here's 79 00:03:23,554 --> 00:03:26,440 what I'm actually doing because I think that [INAUDIBLE]. 80 00:03:26,440 --> 00:03:28,605 PROFESSOR: That sounds reasonably interactive 81 00:03:28,605 --> 00:03:31,332 and you still have a decision to make anyway. 82 00:03:31,332 --> 00:03:34,710 AUDIENCE: It's fun because you actually get to like-- 83 00:03:34,710 --> 00:03:35,854 people actually listen-- 84 00:03:35,854 --> 00:03:36,520 PROFESSOR: Yeah. 85 00:03:36,520 --> 00:03:40,220 AUDIENCE: --on one hand because when you bring up a good point 86 00:03:40,220 --> 00:03:43,230 they'll be like, oh yeah, that's a good point. 87 00:03:43,230 --> 00:03:45,990 But on the other hand, no one-- it's 88 00:03:45,990 --> 00:03:47,961 not one person playing the game. 89 00:03:47,961 --> 00:03:50,460 PROFESSOR: It's like a board of directors giving you advice, 90 00:03:50,460 --> 00:03:51,270 and then you've got to figure out 91 00:03:51,270 --> 00:03:52,817 what's the right thing to do. 92 00:03:52,817 --> 00:03:55,150 AUDIENCE: Except as you're done you start giving advice. 93 00:03:55,150 --> 00:03:56,774 PROFESSOR: And everyone switches roles. 94 00:03:56,774 --> 00:04:00,140 AUDIENCE: I don't know if you're saying 95 00:04:00,140 --> 00:04:01,350 it's a negative, necessarily. 96 00:04:01,350 --> 00:04:02,530 PROFESSOR: I'm not necessarily saying that. 97 00:04:02,530 --> 00:04:04,150 AUDIENCE: But I feel like that might have very well been 98 00:04:04,150 --> 00:04:05,073 what he was going for. 99 00:04:05,073 --> 00:04:06,780 Like in the video he was all talking about his wife, 100 00:04:06,780 --> 00:04:09,650 and like, he wanted to be able to play with his wife, right? 101 00:04:09,650 --> 00:04:11,275 So this is kind of a serious gamer 102 00:04:11,275 --> 00:04:13,510 can play it with someone that's not as invested 103 00:04:13,510 --> 00:04:15,786 is kind of what you're saying a little bit. 104 00:04:15,786 --> 00:04:17,620 PROFESSOR: Yeah, I mean, as a result 105 00:04:17,620 --> 00:04:19,329 I've played many games of Pandemic, 106 00:04:19,329 --> 00:04:21,667 which is a good thing. 107 00:04:21,667 --> 00:04:22,167 Yeah? 108 00:04:22,167 --> 00:04:27,680 AUDIENCE: Sometimes I think, like, [INAUDIBLE] 109 00:04:37,290 --> 00:04:38,912 PROFESSOR: Right. 110 00:04:38,912 --> 00:04:40,870 Like deliberately sabotaging. 111 00:04:40,870 --> 00:04:41,870 AUDIENCE: Yeah. 112 00:04:41,870 --> 00:04:49,750 Also, there's a game that [INAUDIBLE] being play 113 00:04:49,750 --> 00:04:50,800 tested basically. 114 00:04:50,800 --> 00:04:56,090 Called [INAUDIBLE], it's like, really pretty tactical. 115 00:04:56,090 --> 00:04:58,873 There's like a [INAUDIBLE] strategic components and you 116 00:04:58,873 --> 00:05:01,860 have teams of players [INAUDIBLE], but there's huge-- 117 00:05:01,860 --> 00:05:03,548 there are large player [INAUDIBLE], 118 00:05:03,548 --> 00:05:06,930 but at the same time it's really hard for one player 119 00:05:06,930 --> 00:05:08,720 to go help someone else on their team 120 00:05:08,720 --> 00:05:10,720 and do everything else components 121 00:05:10,720 --> 00:05:13,220 of two minutes for your turn. 122 00:05:13,220 --> 00:05:18,780 And so it happens [INAUDIBLE] someone is, where like, 123 00:05:18,780 --> 00:05:20,820 someone steps in and tries to help someone else, 124 00:05:20,820 --> 00:05:23,040 and they end up screwing it up even worse 125 00:05:23,040 --> 00:05:26,026 because they didn't realize that they [INAUDIBLE] everything 126 00:05:26,026 --> 00:05:27,776 that was going on and didn't have the time 127 00:05:27,776 --> 00:05:28,830 to analyze it properly. 128 00:05:28,830 --> 00:05:30,871 PROFESSOR: I think that's like an example of what 129 00:05:30,871 --> 00:05:33,190 you're describing as well as like here. 130 00:05:33,190 --> 00:05:37,300 In the realm of [INAUDIBLE] co-op games or games with 131 00:05:37,300 --> 00:05:42,660 a very strong [INAUDIBLE] component, you got-- 132 00:05:42,660 --> 00:05:47,790 there is an assumption, at least in games like Pandemic, 133 00:05:47,790 --> 00:05:51,200 that it's not so much that something 134 00:05:51,200 --> 00:05:54,072 is out there strategizing to beat you 135 00:05:54,072 --> 00:05:57,340 and you're trying to over come it-- like a different player, 136 00:05:57,340 --> 00:06:01,150 for instance, who is trying to achieve victory at your cost. 137 00:06:01,150 --> 00:06:04,800 It's more about, can you get your affairs 138 00:06:04,800 --> 00:06:08,920 and your communication and your decision making lined up 139 00:06:08,920 --> 00:06:12,330 [INAUDIBLE] so that you can actually 140 00:06:12,330 --> 00:06:15,190 overcome the odds that the designer has set up for you? 141 00:06:15,190 --> 00:06:18,410 So I think in the case of the [INAUDIBLE] games, there's 142 00:06:18,410 --> 00:06:20,430 actually somebody out there who's actively 143 00:06:20,430 --> 00:06:23,240 playing the game who's actively trying to win 144 00:06:23,240 --> 00:06:29,010 at the expense of your victory. 145 00:06:29,010 --> 00:06:32,810 So one way that I certainly see is the [? timing, ?] right 146 00:06:32,810 --> 00:06:37,970 is it's OK to cooperate as much as you want in a minute. 147 00:06:37,970 --> 00:06:42,360 And that just leads to, like, confusion and bad judgment 148 00:06:42,360 --> 00:06:48,180 calls and sometimes hilarity and [INAUDIBLE] Space Alert, 149 00:06:48,180 --> 00:06:52,410 which is maybe a game which you should [INAUDIBLE] 150 00:06:52,410 --> 00:06:54,780 because it's-- 151 00:06:54,780 --> 00:06:57,600 for those people who don't remember me describing it 152 00:06:57,600 --> 00:07:02,370 in previous classes, you're all members of a starship. 153 00:07:02,370 --> 00:07:04,140 You all pretty much aren't sure what 154 00:07:04,140 --> 00:07:05,640 you're supposed to be doing. 155 00:07:05,640 --> 00:07:08,040 You're playing the game in real time 156 00:07:08,040 --> 00:07:12,210 because events happen as you play an audio track that 157 00:07:12,210 --> 00:07:14,780 just runs nonstop. 158 00:07:14,780 --> 00:07:17,460 It never pauses until the game is over. 159 00:07:17,460 --> 00:07:19,830 And you all have to be very, very coordinated 160 00:07:19,830 --> 00:07:21,780 to get anything done. 161 00:07:21,780 --> 00:07:24,660 Just like firing a single gun requires you to charge up 162 00:07:24,660 --> 00:07:31,560 that gun, turning on a shield so that you can block enemy fire 163 00:07:31,560 --> 00:07:34,910 needs to be on at the moment the enemy fire is about to hit you, 164 00:07:34,910 --> 00:07:36,586 I think-- as I recall [INAUDIBLE]. 165 00:07:36,586 --> 00:07:38,886 But [INAUDIBLE] it just [INAUDIBLE]. 166 00:07:38,886 --> 00:07:42,599 AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE] and also because there's so 167 00:07:42,599 --> 00:07:44,390 many threats [INAUDIBLE] it's very easy to, 168 00:07:44,390 --> 00:07:47,260 like, accidentally run out of energy or to do things 169 00:07:47,260 --> 00:07:51,937 where they [INAUDIBLE] or miss if you don't [INAUDIBLE] one 170 00:07:51,937 --> 00:07:53,680 of the [INAUDIBLE] things is obviously, 171 00:07:53,680 --> 00:07:55,929 like, [INAUDIBLE] fires their gun at like some threat, 172 00:07:55,929 --> 00:07:58,610 but they fired it a turn before it appears [INAUDIBLE]. 173 00:07:58,610 --> 00:07:58,840 PROFESSOR: Yeah. 174 00:07:58,840 --> 00:07:59,550 AUDIENCE: Which is like [INAUDIBLE]. 175 00:07:59,550 --> 00:08:01,591 PROFESSOR: Yeah, because [INAUDIBLE] has a range, 176 00:08:01,591 --> 00:08:04,105 if I recall, right? 177 00:08:04,105 --> 00:08:06,480 An effective range. 178 00:08:06,480 --> 00:08:10,160 So, you're all trying to achieve simultaneous victory. 179 00:08:10,160 --> 00:08:12,650 You're all trying to not die in that game. 180 00:08:12,650 --> 00:08:14,490 But because you have so little time 181 00:08:14,490 --> 00:08:16,490 to be able to figure out what the right thing is 182 00:08:16,490 --> 00:08:18,150 to do, you just [INAUDIBLE]. 183 00:08:18,150 --> 00:08:25,404 That's not the case, I believe, in Desert Island and Pandemic. 184 00:08:25,404 --> 00:08:26,820 You have about as much time as you 185 00:08:26,820 --> 00:08:31,830 like to make a group decision. 186 00:08:31,830 --> 00:08:34,110 But it's fairly [INAUDIBLE] these sort 187 00:08:34,110 --> 00:08:38,080 of competing cooperative games, where your only opponent 188 00:08:38,080 --> 00:08:41,760 is the game system the designers really created for you. 189 00:08:41,760 --> 00:08:45,012 You can of course set difficulty levels in a lot of these games. 190 00:08:45,012 --> 00:08:46,720 If you're learning it for the first time, 191 00:08:46,720 --> 00:08:48,750 you play it on kind of the easy set up. 192 00:08:48,750 --> 00:08:52,045 And if you're [INAUDIBLE] with all the mechanics of the game, 193 00:08:52,045 --> 00:08:53,670 you can sort of crank up the difficulty 194 00:08:53,670 --> 00:08:58,910 by starting the game at a point of [INAUDIBLE]. 195 00:08:58,910 --> 00:09:02,040 But I think-- anything else that anyone 196 00:09:02,040 --> 00:09:04,080 noticed from his thoughts about the design 197 00:09:04,080 --> 00:09:04,960 of cooperative games? 198 00:09:07,960 --> 00:09:09,960 AUDIENCE: You mentioned-- 199 00:09:09,960 --> 00:09:13,460 I think it might have been in the video or something else 200 00:09:13,460 --> 00:09:17,350 [INAUDIBLE] the rule that said that you couldn't show anybody 201 00:09:17,350 --> 00:09:17,860 else-- 202 00:09:17,860 --> 00:09:18,660 PROFESSOR: Your hand? 203 00:09:18,660 --> 00:09:18,950 AUDIENCE: Your hand. 204 00:09:18,950 --> 00:09:19,300 PROFESSOR: Yeah. 205 00:09:19,300 --> 00:09:21,633 AUDIENCE: Because that was a very important component of 206 00:09:21,633 --> 00:09:23,010 [INAUDIBLE]. 207 00:09:23,010 --> 00:09:24,954 PROFESSOR: Yeah, yeah. 208 00:09:24,954 --> 00:09:26,870 AUDIENCE: I didn't understand the [INAUDIBLE]. 209 00:09:26,870 --> 00:09:31,110 PROFESSOR: It's kind of giving you still something to do. 210 00:09:31,110 --> 00:09:34,490 Because you have information that no one else has until you 211 00:09:34,490 --> 00:09:36,150 share it, there's still the thing 212 00:09:36,150 --> 00:09:40,110 that you can do, which is share the information that you got, 213 00:09:40,110 --> 00:09:46,180 even though it's not necessarily information that you probably-- 214 00:09:46,180 --> 00:09:47,700 in a game like "Pandemic," it's not 215 00:09:47,700 --> 00:09:49,100 information you want to hide. 216 00:09:49,100 --> 00:09:51,670 You want everyone else to know this information 217 00:09:51,670 --> 00:09:54,360 So there's still a decision to be made even though there's 218 00:09:54,360 --> 00:09:57,750 activity to be done. 219 00:09:57,750 --> 00:10:00,050 But in a game where time is limited, 220 00:10:00,050 --> 00:10:02,160 then yes, there becomes a decision of, 221 00:10:02,160 --> 00:10:04,189 do I want to share this piece of information? 222 00:10:04,189 --> 00:10:06,522 Because it's taking away time from doing something else. 223 00:10:09,075 --> 00:10:12,000 I worked on a game with the Education Arcade, 224 00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:16,900 which is a research group here based in [INAUDIBLE]. 225 00:10:16,900 --> 00:10:19,980 And a long time ago, we made a game 226 00:10:19,980 --> 00:10:22,170 where it was a location based game. 227 00:10:22,170 --> 00:10:24,220 So everyone's walking around with GPS 228 00:10:24,220 --> 00:10:28,340 [INAUDIBLE] smart devices. 229 00:10:28,340 --> 00:10:33,150 And everyone is trying to investigate the ground water 230 00:10:33,150 --> 00:10:36,800 contamination, basically, but everyone also 231 00:10:36,800 --> 00:10:38,900 was one of three different classes 232 00:10:38,900 --> 00:10:39,730 and they would get different information 233 00:10:39,730 --> 00:10:41,110 based on which class they were. 234 00:10:41,110 --> 00:10:46,590 Some of them were, like, [INAUDIBLE] some of them were 235 00:10:46,590 --> 00:10:47,090 more-- 236 00:10:47,090 --> 00:10:49,705 I'm trying to remember what-- some of them were biologists. 237 00:10:49,705 --> 00:10:51,893 Some of them were geologists. 238 00:10:51,893 --> 00:10:54,017 I think one of one was, like, construction engineer 239 00:10:54,017 --> 00:10:55,150 or something like that. 240 00:10:55,150 --> 00:10:58,560 So you knew things about how things 241 00:10:58,560 --> 00:11:00,200 were built but you didn't necessarily 242 00:11:00,200 --> 00:11:05,030 know much about what type of animals 243 00:11:05,030 --> 00:11:09,170 will be affected by [INAUDIBLE] 244 00:11:11,270 --> 00:11:15,230 And so in the game, information that you got were private, 245 00:11:15,230 --> 00:11:18,750 but it was the kind of thing that you want to share. 246 00:11:18,750 --> 00:11:21,920 Now, in a location based game, sharing information 247 00:11:21,920 --> 00:11:24,770 becomes tough because everyone is physically 248 00:11:24,770 --> 00:11:26,110 spread out over an area. 249 00:11:26,110 --> 00:11:29,570 This was a game that was played over the entire MIT campus. 250 00:11:29,570 --> 00:11:31,190 Everyone had walkie talkies. 251 00:11:31,190 --> 00:11:32,815 But the nice thing about walkie talkies 252 00:11:32,815 --> 00:11:34,940 is that only one person can talk at a time. 253 00:11:34,940 --> 00:11:38,360 Otherwise, no one really can make sense of everything. 254 00:11:38,360 --> 00:11:40,970 And it's still kind of the case as you 255 00:11:40,970 --> 00:11:42,880 try to play the game with cell phones 256 00:11:42,880 --> 00:11:45,243 because you can only talk to one person at a time 257 00:11:45,243 --> 00:11:48,260 unless you, like, set up some crazy network. 258 00:11:48,260 --> 00:11:51,512 Even if you try to do text messaging, that's [INAUDIBLE], 259 00:11:51,512 --> 00:11:52,012 right? 260 00:11:54,760 --> 00:11:58,100 So that's one way that you can get people involved 261 00:11:58,100 --> 00:12:00,950 and feel like they're contributing, which is just, 262 00:12:00,950 --> 00:12:04,900 give everybody little fragments of information that they need 263 00:12:04,900 --> 00:12:06,522 and then get them to-- 264 00:12:06,522 --> 00:12:08,480 and then the game becomes more about how do you 265 00:12:08,480 --> 00:12:11,430 go about sharing this information rather than what 266 00:12:11,430 --> 00:12:15,500 decision you make with the information. 267 00:12:15,500 --> 00:12:17,570 [INAUDIBLE] once you got all the information, 268 00:12:17,570 --> 00:12:19,186 there is a decision to be made. 269 00:12:19,186 --> 00:12:21,060 And in some cases, it feels like a board room 270 00:12:21,060 --> 00:12:23,660 where everyone's got different ideas 271 00:12:23,660 --> 00:12:26,120 and trying to encourage you to do it in certain ways. 272 00:12:26,120 --> 00:12:28,520 And that's great, because [INAUDIBLE] 273 00:12:28,520 --> 00:12:32,290 is weighing the pros and cons of every possible option. 274 00:12:32,290 --> 00:12:34,880 But in some cases, it's just, like, one person just 275 00:12:34,880 --> 00:12:37,560 decides to be the decider and is going 276 00:12:37,560 --> 00:12:41,120 to tell everybody else the decisions and then everyone 277 00:12:41,120 --> 00:12:44,840 else [INAUDIBLE]. 278 00:12:44,840 --> 00:12:48,860 Has anyone played, like, sort of cooperative live action-type 279 00:12:48,860 --> 00:12:49,900 games? 280 00:12:49,900 --> 00:12:51,640 [INAUDIBLE]? 281 00:12:51,640 --> 00:12:54,016 AUDIENCE: Oh, cooperative live action type games. 282 00:12:54,016 --> 00:13:02,320 I played [INAUDIBLE] where there was, like-- 283 00:13:02,320 --> 00:13:08,210 I mean, a lot of [INAUDIBLE] to do when you're [INAUDIBLE] make 284 00:13:08,210 --> 00:13:08,963 sure that-- 285 00:13:08,963 --> 00:13:11,040 you need to get everyone's [INAUDIBLE] 286 00:13:11,040 --> 00:13:13,890 because that will make people communicate and work 287 00:13:13,890 --> 00:13:15,120 [INAUDIBLE]. 288 00:13:15,120 --> 00:13:20,372 And oftentimes-- so, for [INAUDIBLE] like, 289 00:13:20,372 --> 00:13:22,078 I remember [INAUDIBLE] in particular, 290 00:13:22,078 --> 00:13:26,260 there was [INAUDIBLE] 291 00:13:26,260 --> 00:13:29,157 You would need, like, [INAUDIBLE] components, which 292 00:13:29,157 --> 00:13:30,490 you can [INAUDIBLE] on your own. 293 00:13:30,490 --> 00:13:32,760 You can gather the resources and stuff. 294 00:13:32,760 --> 00:13:36,420 And then you needed to successfully [INAUDIBLE] 295 00:13:36,420 --> 00:13:39,140 in the blank, Hangman or Pictionary or something 296 00:13:39,140 --> 00:13:42,080 that's describing [INAUDIBLE] 297 00:13:42,080 --> 00:13:45,700 And it was nice to have this cooperation [INAUDIBLE] 298 00:13:45,700 --> 00:13:47,412 cooperation is like, did someone want 299 00:13:47,412 --> 00:13:50,810 to, like, [INAUDIBLE] trying to describe [INAUDIBLE] 300 00:13:50,810 --> 00:13:51,620 face to someone. 301 00:13:51,620 --> 00:13:53,960 And it was also [INAUDIBLE] like, 302 00:13:53,960 --> 00:13:55,300 share a little bit about them. 303 00:13:55,300 --> 00:13:57,425 It also was interesting is that oftentimes, someone 304 00:13:57,425 --> 00:13:59,340 says, does anyone want to, like, when 305 00:13:59,340 --> 00:14:02,220 you're doing Pictionary, trying to describe the word 306 00:14:02,220 --> 00:14:02,720 destruction. 307 00:14:02,720 --> 00:14:09,520 It's like [INAUDIBLE] people talk about your research 308 00:14:09,520 --> 00:14:10,020 after that. 309 00:14:10,020 --> 00:14:11,020 PROFESSOR: Right, right. 310 00:14:11,020 --> 00:14:12,740 Of course, yeah. 311 00:14:12,740 --> 00:14:13,770 Yeah. 312 00:14:13,770 --> 00:14:16,400 So I think what you're describing 313 00:14:16,400 --> 00:14:19,080 is, like, the live action role playing [INAUDIBLE]. 314 00:14:19,080 --> 00:14:20,788 PROFESSOR: Yeah, live action [INAUDIBLE]. 315 00:14:20,788 --> 00:14:21,727 PROFESSOR: Yeah. 316 00:14:21,727 --> 00:14:23,560 But a lot of live action role playing games, 317 00:14:23,560 --> 00:14:25,476 even though you may be cooperative on that one 318 00:14:25,476 --> 00:14:28,340 activity, you don't know what the motive 319 00:14:28,340 --> 00:14:31,460 of every single person in that room is. 320 00:14:31,460 --> 00:14:38,010 Whereas in non-LARP type games but that are played out in live 321 00:14:38,010 --> 00:14:38,510 action-- 322 00:14:38,510 --> 00:14:41,510 say, training simulations, for instance-- 323 00:14:41,510 --> 00:14:43,844 often, everyone's actually on the same team. 324 00:14:43,844 --> 00:14:45,510 Everyone is very, very clear [INAUDIBLE] 325 00:14:45,510 --> 00:14:49,550 working toward a common goal, just given different roles. 326 00:14:49,550 --> 00:14:54,250 So, [INAUDIBLE] I trained a couple of years in the Army 327 00:14:54,250 --> 00:14:57,650 and we had a lot of live action training simulations 328 00:14:57,650 --> 00:15:00,040 where, yeah, everyone's on the same team 329 00:15:00,040 --> 00:15:02,690 and there are instructors out there 330 00:15:02,690 --> 00:15:04,540 trying to make your life difficult, sure. 331 00:15:04,540 --> 00:15:07,310 But everybody that you're actually working with 332 00:15:07,310 --> 00:15:12,140 is communicating and trying to do the best job that they 333 00:15:12,140 --> 00:15:13,450 can towards the common goal. 334 00:15:16,150 --> 00:15:19,470 Has anyone gone through anything like a sort 335 00:15:19,470 --> 00:15:21,100 of simulated exercise or anything-- 336 00:15:21,100 --> 00:15:25,010 either an evaluation or-- you know, like an emergency 337 00:15:25,010 --> 00:15:26,970 evacuation? 338 00:15:26,970 --> 00:15:28,879 AUDIENCE: Yeah, [INAUDIBLE] fire drills. 339 00:15:28,879 --> 00:15:30,170 PROFESSOR: We have fire drills. 340 00:15:30,170 --> 00:15:31,660 All right, that's a great insight. 341 00:15:31,660 --> 00:15:33,409 Everybody wants to get out of the building 342 00:15:33,409 --> 00:15:36,420 alive without falling all over, sure. 343 00:15:36,420 --> 00:15:39,854 And that's a great example, yes. 344 00:15:39,854 --> 00:15:45,678 AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE] in a lot of the, like, scenarios 345 00:15:45,678 --> 00:15:49,380 that [INAUDIBLE] you and your team [INAUDIBLE] even a company 346 00:15:49,380 --> 00:15:51,270 trying to design this product and you 347 00:15:51,270 --> 00:15:52,641 had all these challenges. 348 00:15:52,641 --> 00:15:59,866 And it was primarily intended to be cooperative [INAUDIBLE] 349 00:15:59,866 --> 00:16:05,350 an element of, like, [INAUDIBLE] other team [INAUDIBLE] 350 00:16:05,350 --> 00:16:08,750 PROFESSOR: Do you-- so you compete with the other teams 351 00:16:08,750 --> 00:16:09,620 for the-- 352 00:16:09,620 --> 00:16:11,220 do you feel like you're in competition 353 00:16:11,220 --> 00:16:15,470 with the other teams while you are basing your decisions? 354 00:16:15,470 --> 00:16:17,220 Or is it really just like right at the end 355 00:16:17,220 --> 00:16:19,861 when you present everything? 356 00:16:19,861 --> 00:16:21,277 AUDIENCE: Mostly right at the end, 357 00:16:21,277 --> 00:16:24,118 but there were certaion ones where, you know, 358 00:16:24,118 --> 00:16:27,090 you had like a shop and there were 359 00:16:27,090 --> 00:16:29,601 pieces you could get while you were waiting in line to get 360 00:16:29,601 --> 00:16:30,523 different pieces. 361 00:16:30,523 --> 00:16:32,909 Like, you were kind of looking at what 362 00:16:32,909 --> 00:16:34,200 all the other groups are doing. 363 00:16:34,200 --> 00:16:35,362 PROFESSOR: OK 364 00:16:35,362 --> 00:16:37,820 AUDIENCE: And part of it was because it was the same groups 365 00:16:37,820 --> 00:16:38,820 all semester. 366 00:16:41,460 --> 00:16:46,050 Even if there wasn't any [INAUDIBLE] competition 367 00:16:46,050 --> 00:16:48,520 between groups at first, but because 368 00:16:48,520 --> 00:16:50,530 over the entire semester, you were 369 00:16:50,530 --> 00:16:51,654 working with the same team. 370 00:16:51,654 --> 00:16:55,744 You kind of develop a [INAUDIBLE] 371 00:16:55,744 --> 00:16:57,910 PROFESSOR: Yes, yes, I've been in similar exercises, 372 00:16:57,910 --> 00:16:59,960 mostly in school as well. 373 00:16:59,960 --> 00:17:02,270 AUDIENCE: Could this go as simple as just playing 374 00:17:02,270 --> 00:17:04,210 Lava when you're, like, three years old 375 00:17:04,210 --> 00:17:05,935 and you can't thouch the ground, and you 376 00:17:05,935 --> 00:17:07,150 get from one end of the room to the other 377 00:17:07,150 --> 00:17:08,733 without ever touching the ground, jump 378 00:17:08,733 --> 00:17:10,854 pillar to pillar or something? 379 00:17:10,854 --> 00:17:12,020 PROFESSOR: Well, let me see. 380 00:17:12,020 --> 00:17:14,060 I guess [INAUDIBLE] cooperative, I guess. 381 00:17:14,060 --> 00:17:17,578 There's player versus gravity, pretty much. 382 00:17:21,040 --> 00:17:24,250 And yeah, I mean, it depends on whether your goal 383 00:17:24,250 --> 00:17:26,319 is to be the last person standing, in which it 384 00:17:26,319 --> 00:17:27,720 does become a competitive game. 385 00:17:27,720 --> 00:17:29,720 AUDIENCE: Sure, but it was one where you're just 386 00:17:29,720 --> 00:17:30,681 trying to get from one side of the room 387 00:17:30,681 --> 00:17:32,170 to the other, something like that. 388 00:17:32,170 --> 00:17:32,526 PROFESSOR: Yeah. 389 00:17:32,526 --> 00:17:34,109 AUDIENCE: And you're working together. 390 00:17:34,109 --> 00:17:36,190 PROFESSOR: Yeah, if you're all working together, 391 00:17:36,190 --> 00:17:39,490 I would say that is a fairly cooperative game 392 00:17:39,490 --> 00:17:41,110 and the rules are fairly simple. 393 00:17:41,110 --> 00:17:45,970 Just don't fall off pillows which are unstable. 394 00:17:45,970 --> 00:17:49,514 And that's very different from having different roles. 395 00:17:49,514 --> 00:17:50,680 Everybody has the same role. 396 00:17:50,680 --> 00:17:53,440 Everybody is just put in a situation where 397 00:17:53,440 --> 00:17:55,700 they can't accomplish much on their own 398 00:17:55,700 --> 00:17:57,564 but you can do quite a lot if they pull-- 399 00:17:57,564 --> 00:17:59,272 AUDIENCE: I always played with my sister, 400 00:17:59,272 --> 00:18:01,789 and we kind of had different roles, because I 401 00:18:01,789 --> 00:18:03,080 was three years older than her. 402 00:18:03,080 --> 00:18:05,180 When we were five years old, I could jump [INAUDIBLE] 403 00:18:05,180 --> 00:18:06,050 further than her, right? 404 00:18:06,050 --> 00:18:06,473 PROFESSOR: OK. 405 00:18:06,473 --> 00:18:08,230 AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE] put up different roles 406 00:18:08,230 --> 00:18:09,022 there a little bit. 407 00:18:09,022 --> 00:18:11,438 PROFESSOR: I mean, she also has a lower center of gravity, 408 00:18:11,438 --> 00:18:12,280 I'm suggesting then? 409 00:18:12,280 --> 00:18:15,325 AUDIENCE: Sure, she could also barely walk. 410 00:18:19,530 --> 00:18:21,970 PROFESSOR: So you're playing with your sister. 411 00:18:24,770 --> 00:18:29,150 So, it's kind of interesting. 412 00:18:29,150 --> 00:18:31,960 I don't actually like a lot of creativity competitions 413 00:18:31,960 --> 00:18:35,350 where they put teams against each other. 414 00:18:35,350 --> 00:18:39,200 I understand that it does get people enthusiastic and engaged 415 00:18:39,200 --> 00:18:42,370 and [INAUDIBLE] they want to be able to do the best. 416 00:18:42,370 --> 00:18:44,980 But it discourages a lot of information sharing, 417 00:18:44,980 --> 00:18:48,220 which could actually be better for learning in the process. 418 00:18:48,220 --> 00:18:52,180 So when we were [INAUDIBLE], for instance, 419 00:18:52,180 --> 00:18:57,620 a lot of [INAUDIBLE] run by colleges will give out awards. 420 00:18:57,620 --> 00:19:01,150 They'll quite simply have prizes for people 421 00:19:01,150 --> 00:19:04,310 who win maximum applause or something like that. 422 00:19:04,310 --> 00:19:09,055 I think we do give verbal [INAUDIBLE]. 423 00:19:09,055 --> 00:19:11,790 Has anybody ever done, like, [INAUDIBLE] awards? 424 00:19:11,790 --> 00:19:13,946 AUDIENCE: No, I've never done any awards. 425 00:19:13,946 --> 00:19:18,235 When We're doing [INAUDIBLE] the joy of engagement 426 00:19:18,235 --> 00:19:19,830 is being able to share [INAUDIBLE] 427 00:19:19,830 --> 00:19:23,005 and making sure people share throughout [INAUDIBLE] 428 00:19:23,005 --> 00:19:25,380 PROFESSOR: And those are usually the shout outs that give 429 00:19:25,380 --> 00:19:26,250 [INAUDIBLE]. 430 00:19:26,250 --> 00:19:28,090 These are the people who really helped 431 00:19:28,090 --> 00:19:32,490 as a team, the people who were clearly a benefit to more 432 00:19:32,490 --> 00:19:34,202 than just one project. 433 00:19:34,202 --> 00:19:35,860 We will do those kind of shout outs 434 00:19:35,860 --> 00:19:40,040 because in learning situations [INAUDIBLE] 435 00:19:40,040 --> 00:19:42,210 For competitive situations where you 436 00:19:42,210 --> 00:19:46,000 don't expect to have a lot of information sharing-- 437 00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:50,720 say, a school versus a school competition. 438 00:19:50,720 --> 00:19:51,439 It could be math. 439 00:19:51,439 --> 00:19:52,230 It could be sports. 440 00:19:52,230 --> 00:19:56,070 It could be-- we're working on one right now, which 441 00:19:56,070 --> 00:19:59,850 is a [INAUDIBLE] competition, a satellite programming thing. 442 00:19:59,850 --> 00:20:02,054 Some of you might have seen the email 443 00:20:02,054 --> 00:20:04,390 about that, where a lot of the schools that 444 00:20:04,390 --> 00:20:06,510 are working together are geographically 445 00:20:06,510 --> 00:20:08,460 separated by different countries, 446 00:20:08,460 --> 00:20:10,450 probably speaking different languages. 447 00:20:10,450 --> 00:20:13,790 So there may not be terribly much information 448 00:20:13,790 --> 00:20:14,850 sharing to begin with. 449 00:20:14,850 --> 00:20:17,700 So it makes sense that they won't be sharing information 450 00:20:17,700 --> 00:20:21,180 with people that are geographically close to them. 451 00:20:21,180 --> 00:20:24,570 So it's OK to sort of put them in competition 452 00:20:24,570 --> 00:20:27,090 with each other while expecting they're going to cooperate 453 00:20:27,090 --> 00:20:29,690 entirely within their own team. 454 00:20:29,690 --> 00:20:32,000 But there's a deep wrinkle to that one, which 455 00:20:32,000 --> 00:20:35,260 is when it gets to the final rounds, 456 00:20:35,260 --> 00:20:37,620 three schools are put together and one school 457 00:20:37,620 --> 00:20:40,890 is always geographically separated from the other one. 458 00:20:40,890 --> 00:20:43,680 And that gives students an experience 459 00:20:43,680 --> 00:20:46,900 of what it's like to actually work on the state, right? 460 00:20:46,900 --> 00:20:50,730 Because you are working with different companies which 461 00:20:50,730 --> 00:20:55,242 are writing code to all run on the same machine. 462 00:20:55,242 --> 00:20:58,080 But-- and all trying to accomplish different 463 00:20:58,080 --> 00:21:00,570 [INAUDIBLE] problems that they're given [INAUDIBLE] 464 00:21:00,570 --> 00:21:03,288 so difficult that one school-- 465 00:21:03,288 --> 00:21:06,180 one school could probably do a mediocre job on it, 466 00:21:06,180 --> 00:21:08,455 but you need the resources of three schools 467 00:21:08,455 --> 00:21:09,830 and all the kids in three schools 468 00:21:09,830 --> 00:21:13,530 to be able to solve this particular space problem. 469 00:21:13,530 --> 00:21:16,710 So you need to communicate and you need to share. 470 00:21:16,710 --> 00:21:21,780 And that's an interesting [INAUDIBLE] of the game 471 00:21:21,780 --> 00:21:23,670 where, again, it's all about what are 472 00:21:23,670 --> 00:21:25,320 the limits of communication? 473 00:21:25,320 --> 00:21:27,000 We talk about time. 474 00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:30,490 We talk about physical distance being a limit of communication. 475 00:21:30,490 --> 00:21:32,100 What about things like language? 476 00:21:32,100 --> 00:21:34,340 About things like time zones? 477 00:21:37,320 --> 00:21:41,660 All right, so any of the games that you are making, 478 00:21:41,660 --> 00:21:46,150 cooperative games, I think are also competitive in a way? 479 00:21:46,150 --> 00:21:52,106 AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE] the end goal is [INAUDIBLE] I mean-- 480 00:21:52,106 --> 00:21:53,064 PROFESSOR: Yeah, it's-- 481 00:21:53,064 --> 00:21:56,070 AUDIENCE: In the end, it's like a competitive thing, 482 00:21:56,070 --> 00:21:59,952 but to achieve the most you can, it would be be cooperative. 483 00:21:59,952 --> 00:22:01,995 PROFESSOR: OK, is this the base [INAUDIBLE] one? 484 00:22:01,995 --> 00:22:02,494 No. 485 00:22:02,494 --> 00:22:04,540 [INAUDIBLE] 486 00:22:04,540 --> 00:22:05,372 AUDIENCE: No. 487 00:22:05,372 --> 00:22:05,872 Well, yes. 488 00:22:05,872 --> 00:22:07,913 I was going to say, we're definitely cooperative. 489 00:22:07,913 --> 00:22:10,249 [INAUDIBLE] well, two teams, I guess. 490 00:22:10,249 --> 00:22:11,790 AUDIENCE: Two versus one [INAUDIBLE]. 491 00:22:11,790 --> 00:22:12,415 AUDIENCE: Yeah. 492 00:22:12,415 --> 00:22:14,340 PROFESSOR: Oh, it's two competitive teams. 493 00:22:14,340 --> 00:22:15,324 AUDIENCE: Yes. 494 00:22:15,324 --> 00:22:16,740 PROFESSOR: So you have cooperation 495 00:22:16,740 --> 00:22:19,220 within the team and competition between teams. 496 00:22:19,220 --> 00:22:21,642 And which game was the one that [INAUDIBLE] 497 00:22:21,642 --> 00:22:23,530 AUDIENCE: The ship captain one. 498 00:22:23,530 --> 00:22:24,360 PROFESSOR: The ship captain one, right, right, 499 00:22:24,360 --> 00:22:25,984 where [INAUDIBLE] trying to [INAUDIBLE] 500 00:22:25,984 --> 00:22:29,440 put all of this information together, right. 501 00:22:29,440 --> 00:22:33,330 So, is there anything from Matt's presentation 502 00:22:33,330 --> 00:22:43,350 that you might want to try out in a game? 503 00:22:43,350 --> 00:22:48,924 AUDIENCE: I really like the idea small leveling, kind of. 504 00:22:48,924 --> 00:22:51,960 So you said he had three-- he gave the flow chart, 505 00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:53,315 which I really like. 506 00:22:53,315 --> 00:22:53,800 PROFESSOR: Right, right, right. 507 00:22:53,800 --> 00:22:54,466 AUDIENCE: Right? 508 00:22:54,466 --> 00:22:56,950 So you want to make it balanced between players' 509 00:22:56,950 --> 00:22:59,280 skill and [INAUDIBLE]. 510 00:22:59,280 --> 00:23:02,247 And if there's too much [INAUDIBLE] players' skills, 511 00:23:02,247 --> 00:23:03,221 you have anxiety. 512 00:23:03,221 --> 00:23:05,060 And if there's too much player skill 513 00:23:05,060 --> 00:23:07,830 and too little [INAUDIBLE], you get boredom. 514 00:23:07,830 --> 00:23:11,090 So we have like a basic version that you can just start with. 515 00:23:11,090 --> 00:23:12,847 And then if you're a really good gamer, 516 00:23:12,847 --> 00:23:15,430 you might move onto the normal version or the advanced version 517 00:23:15,430 --> 00:23:17,039 really quickly. 518 00:23:17,039 --> 00:23:19,580 And first, I was like, oh, this is really complicated, right? 519 00:23:19,580 --> 00:23:20,130 Three versions of the game. 520 00:23:20,130 --> 00:23:22,751 Then, you play [INAUDIBLE] and you just add one [INAUDIBLE] 521 00:23:22,751 --> 00:23:23,250 to that. 522 00:23:23,250 --> 00:23:25,900 And that's [INAUDIBLE] changes [INAUDIBLE]. 523 00:23:25,900 --> 00:23:28,180 PROFESSOR: And that's another-- 524 00:23:28,180 --> 00:23:32,470 in Forbidden Island, I believe the only change in difficulty 525 00:23:32,470 --> 00:23:35,000 is that you start-- 526 00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:37,120 the way [INAUDIBLE] works is that you 527 00:23:37,120 --> 00:23:39,760 are on an island that's slowly sinking into the water. 528 00:23:39,760 --> 00:23:41,590 And [? there's a ?] water level marker. 529 00:23:41,590 --> 00:23:45,310 So by increasing difficulty, I believe 530 00:23:45,310 --> 00:23:47,830 you just start at a higher level of water. 531 00:23:47,830 --> 00:23:50,530 And more stuff is submerged at the beginning of the game. 532 00:23:50,530 --> 00:23:52,480 But the rules don't change. 533 00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:54,490 And if you're going to try to do something 534 00:23:54,490 --> 00:23:56,500 like that in your game, I would certainly 535 00:23:56,500 --> 00:23:59,500 encourage you to think of difficulty levels in that way. 536 00:23:59,500 --> 00:24:02,770 Don't give us, like, here are the simple set 537 00:24:02,770 --> 00:24:06,250 of rules for simple players and the advanced 538 00:24:06,250 --> 00:24:08,190 set of rules for players. 539 00:24:08,190 --> 00:24:14,470 Those don't change things like just the starting conditions 540 00:24:14,470 --> 00:24:17,930 so that I-- 541 00:24:17,930 --> 00:24:20,460 I wouldn't encourage you to change, like, 542 00:24:20,460 --> 00:24:22,360 individual variables in your game 543 00:24:22,360 --> 00:24:25,140 because that might be too complicated to get across. 544 00:24:25,140 --> 00:24:26,670 But things like setup-- 545 00:24:26,670 --> 00:24:27,170 that's, OK. 546 00:24:27,170 --> 00:24:29,020 Once you've got the whole game set up 547 00:24:29,020 --> 00:24:30,539 at the correct difficult level. 548 00:24:30,539 --> 00:24:32,830 Don't have to worry about the differences between setup 549 00:24:32,830 --> 00:24:35,470 for easy or setup for hard. 550 00:24:35,470 --> 00:24:37,420 Giving people extra options, for instance, 551 00:24:37,420 --> 00:24:39,700 by giving them extra cards or something like that 552 00:24:39,700 --> 00:24:42,670 could also be a good way to be able to [INAUDIBLE] 553 00:24:42,670 --> 00:24:45,900 change the level of difficulty throughout the game. 554 00:24:45,900 --> 00:24:46,702 That's a good idea. 555 00:24:50,995 --> 00:24:55,470 [INAUDIBLE] there's something I was 556 00:24:55,470 --> 00:24:57,220 talking about cooperative and competitive. 557 00:24:57,220 --> 00:24:59,850 He just talks a lot about what it 558 00:24:59,850 --> 00:25:02,810 was like to design his first board game. 559 00:25:02,810 --> 00:25:06,780 I believe he said that that was his first board game. 560 00:25:06,780 --> 00:25:09,540 [INAUDIBLE] his first published board game [INAUDIBLE]. 561 00:25:09,540 --> 00:25:11,830 AUDIENCE: First one was [INAUDIBLE] Fish and Chips. 562 00:25:11,830 --> 00:25:12,370 PROFESSOR: Oh, yeah. 563 00:25:12,370 --> 00:25:13,411 Oh right, Fish and Chips. 564 00:25:13,411 --> 00:25:14,719 That's right. 565 00:25:14,719 --> 00:25:15,510 AUDIENCE: Oh, wait. 566 00:25:15,510 --> 00:25:16,730 I just got that joke. 567 00:25:16,730 --> 00:25:17,230 Wow. 568 00:25:20,170 --> 00:25:26,370 PROFESSOR: So-- but anyone observe or hear 569 00:25:26,370 --> 00:25:28,250 anything interesting from that one? 570 00:25:28,250 --> 00:25:29,960 From the [INAUDIBLE] talking outside 571 00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:32,490 of the cooperative and competitive [INAUDIBLE] 572 00:25:32,490 --> 00:25:33,490 cooperative game design? 573 00:25:38,693 --> 00:25:42,680 AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE] do you just mean something 574 00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:43,830 interesting about the talk? 575 00:25:43,830 --> 00:25:45,999 PROFESSOR: Yeah, anything else that was interesting. 576 00:25:45,999 --> 00:25:47,790 I've been asking you questions specifically 577 00:25:47,790 --> 00:25:51,222 on his thoughts on cooperative games like [INAUDIBLE]. 578 00:25:51,222 --> 00:25:53,770 But that's only part of the talk. 579 00:25:53,770 --> 00:25:54,910 That's not his whole talk. 580 00:25:54,910 --> 00:25:57,800 So I was just wondering if anyone 581 00:25:57,800 --> 00:25:59,084 noticed anything interesting. 582 00:25:59,084 --> 00:26:02,408 AUDIENCE: I think [INAUDIBLE] he mentioned 583 00:26:02,408 --> 00:26:04,557 Ameritrash [INAUDIBLE] games. 584 00:26:04,557 --> 00:26:05,390 PROFESSOR: Ah, yeah. 585 00:26:05,390 --> 00:26:07,014 AUDIENCE: Something I haven't herad of. 586 00:26:07,014 --> 00:26:08,620 And then when I looked online, it 587 00:26:08,620 --> 00:26:13,342 seems to be either something that has made it [INAUDIBLE], 588 00:26:13,342 --> 00:26:13,850 sort of? 589 00:26:13,850 --> 00:26:19,220 PROFESSOR: It's one of those almost invented internet forum 590 00:26:19,220 --> 00:26:20,720 arguments. 591 00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:22,184 But it's one that-- 592 00:26:22,184 --> 00:26:24,350 I mean, it's like the [INAUDIBLE] of the [INAUDIBLE] 593 00:26:24,350 --> 00:26:26,570 in game design. 594 00:26:26,570 --> 00:26:28,270 That's another one where-- 595 00:26:28,270 --> 00:26:30,870 that's the sort of thing that you see now just 596 00:26:30,870 --> 00:26:33,510 to make people roll [INAUDIBLE] 597 00:26:33,510 --> 00:26:37,560 But back in the '90s, I guess, it was a bigger thing. 598 00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:40,530 It was like, are games about the systems 599 00:26:40,530 --> 00:26:42,390 or are games about the stories? 600 00:26:42,390 --> 00:26:44,230 The whole thing was just that and it 601 00:26:44,230 --> 00:26:48,240 was people sort of arguing past each other-- not actually 602 00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:50,930 waiting to talk to each other, just wanted to shout 603 00:26:50,930 --> 00:26:52,310 at each other about it. 604 00:26:52,310 --> 00:26:56,820 And Ameritrash and Euro games are one of those things purely, 605 00:26:56,820 --> 00:26:59,770 from the description of Ameritrash, 606 00:26:59,770 --> 00:27:03,236 you can sort of expect that the people who like Euro games 607 00:27:03,236 --> 00:27:05,930 gave it that term. 608 00:27:05,930 --> 00:27:08,920 AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE] argument, because the Ameritrash games 609 00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:11,450 were-- 610 00:27:11,450 --> 00:27:13,950 the big problem with the Ameritrash games 611 00:27:13,950 --> 00:27:15,716 were the Milton-Bradley Gamemakers games. 612 00:27:15,716 --> 00:27:18,090 I think they were called Gamemakers or Game Masters 613 00:27:18,090 --> 00:27:19,790 series in the mid '80s. 614 00:27:19,790 --> 00:27:23,380 Like [INAUDIBLE] 615 00:27:23,380 --> 00:27:25,300 There's another [INAUDIBLE] one. 616 00:27:25,300 --> 00:27:28,330 But games with a board and lots of little plastic pieces 617 00:27:28,330 --> 00:27:31,440 where there's a lot of, like, details 618 00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:35,110 given to the [INAUDIBLE] molding on the pieces rather 619 00:27:35,110 --> 00:27:37,356 than the system. 620 00:27:37,356 --> 00:27:40,590 Like, that's where it was thought the money was spent. 621 00:27:40,590 --> 00:27:45,500 Where a Euro game is, well, it's little wooden cubes, and not 622 00:27:45,500 --> 00:27:46,980 much theme going on. 623 00:27:46,980 --> 00:27:51,550 And so the system has more the amount 624 00:27:51,550 --> 00:27:54,080 of attention and detail [INAUDIBLE] 625 00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:56,240 PROFESSOR: There is a lower cost version 626 00:27:56,240 --> 00:27:59,095 that is along those same lines, because Ameritrash 627 00:27:59,095 --> 00:28:01,490 is a lot about presentation, right? 628 00:28:01,490 --> 00:28:07,160 This is just-- so, a lot of-- 629 00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:08,510 I tried to think. 630 00:28:08,510 --> 00:28:09,330 Munchkin? 631 00:28:09,330 --> 00:28:10,670 Anyone play Munchkin? 632 00:28:10,670 --> 00:28:11,240 Yeah, OK. 633 00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:13,440 So, you know, this card game about sort 634 00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:18,040 of dungeon crawling, being really bad role playing gamers. 635 00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:19,625 And it's all about the art. 636 00:28:19,625 --> 00:28:22,060 It's all about funny text that they've written. 637 00:28:22,060 --> 00:28:24,530 It's not necessarily about cool-looking pieces, 638 00:28:24,530 --> 00:28:27,800 but it's about cool looking cards that you can laugh with, 639 00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:29,570 you know, while you're playing the game. 640 00:28:29,570 --> 00:28:32,540 But a game [INAUDIBLE] itself, [INAUDIBLE] actually 641 00:28:32,540 --> 00:28:33,777 [INAUDIBLE] 642 00:28:33,777 --> 00:28:36,699 AUDIENCE: I might call Magic Ameritrash. 643 00:28:36,699 --> 00:28:38,480 PROFESSOR: And Magic-- the Gathering sort 644 00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:40,146 of trades [INAUDIBLE] same sort of thing 645 00:28:40,146 --> 00:28:41,990 as like [INAUDIBLE] layered complexity 646 00:28:41,990 --> 00:28:44,960 on top of complexity [INAUDIBLE] very little elegance 647 00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:46,190 to the [? system, ?] right? 648 00:28:46,190 --> 00:28:47,990 But every once in a while, they sort it out 649 00:28:47,990 --> 00:28:50,156 and then it becomes a pretty elegant system and they 650 00:28:50,156 --> 00:28:52,490 then keep adding things on top of it. 651 00:28:52,490 --> 00:28:55,044 That's because that's how their business model works. 652 00:28:55,044 --> 00:28:57,454 AUDIENCE: So I guess a big question about [INAUDIBLE]. 653 00:28:57,454 --> 00:29:00,105 How is Ameritrash different from the theme games 654 00:29:00,105 --> 00:29:02,290 like Monopoly [INAUDIBLE]? 655 00:29:02,290 --> 00:29:03,610 PROFESSOR: Not that different. 656 00:29:03,610 --> 00:29:06,550 It's a more derogatory term, but I 657 00:29:06,550 --> 00:29:08,860 think when it comes to the stuff that's 658 00:29:08,860 --> 00:29:17,080 really old like "Monopoly," there's 659 00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:20,860 a limited level of presentation they could possibly achieve 660 00:29:20,860 --> 00:29:22,810 with traditional manufacturing. 661 00:29:22,810 --> 00:29:26,410 And by the time the [INAUDIBLE] term Ameritrash had shown up, 662 00:29:26,410 --> 00:29:29,920 games like Monopoly and Clue and all that 663 00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:33,960 had already been shrunk down into budget versions. 664 00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:36,800 You know, it's like, you're no longer getting metal pieces. 665 00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:39,810 You're getting little plastic pieces 666 00:29:39,810 --> 00:29:45,930 that barely look like the dog or the hat they're supposed to be. 667 00:29:45,930 --> 00:29:47,350 Games like "Battleship" where it's 668 00:29:47,350 --> 00:29:49,420 like, the whole idea is that it's not really, 669 00:29:49,420 --> 00:29:51,432 like, the "Battleship" kit looks nice. 670 00:29:51,432 --> 00:29:53,890 It's just like this small part of [INAUDIBLE] manufacturing 671 00:29:53,890 --> 00:29:55,780 and people grew up playing Battleship. 672 00:29:55,780 --> 00:29:58,450 And those games are being sold on a completely different 673 00:29:58,450 --> 00:29:59,080 premise. 674 00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:00,830 Those games are primarily nostalgia games. 675 00:30:00,830 --> 00:30:04,280 Those games are games that you bought because you played them 676 00:30:04,280 --> 00:30:05,360 at one point in time. 677 00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:07,720 But I think Ameritrash was mostly 678 00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:09,450 used to brand a certain kind of game 679 00:30:09,450 --> 00:30:11,050 that you'll be buying because you want 680 00:30:11,050 --> 00:30:12,640 to play for the first time-- 681 00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:18,000 like "Munchkin" that you buy to play with a bunch of friends, 682 00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:21,670 often published by companies that either had a war gaming 683 00:30:21,670 --> 00:30:25,840 background or a role playing book 684 00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:29,830 kind of background like Steve Jackson, for instance. 685 00:30:29,830 --> 00:30:35,450 Because they're used-- actually I believe [INAUDIBLE]. 686 00:30:35,450 --> 00:30:38,020 Actually, I'm not so sure if this came up in class. 687 00:30:38,020 --> 00:30:41,980 This is something that I remember hearing recently. 688 00:30:41,980 --> 00:30:44,831 The idea of the game writer, you know-- 689 00:30:44,831 --> 00:30:46,214 what is [INAUDIBLE]? 690 00:30:46,214 --> 00:30:49,910 AUDIENCE: Yeah, Mack was talking about-- 691 00:30:49,910 --> 00:30:52,410 writer verses inventor versus designer. 692 00:30:52,410 --> 00:30:55,830 PROFESSOR: Right, so the idea is that games were things 693 00:30:55,830 --> 00:30:59,640 that you would write comes out from the role playing game 694 00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:04,360 industry, where their primary product was books. 695 00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:07,120 And sure, books included descriptions of systems, 696 00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:09,747 but [INAUDIBLE] prose is your tool 697 00:31:09,747 --> 00:31:11,080 to be able to get things across. 698 00:31:11,080 --> 00:31:13,330 [INAUDIBLE] to try to use prose on the things that prose is 699 00:31:13,330 --> 00:31:13,970 good at-- 700 00:31:13,970 --> 00:31:19,614 on things like creating atmosphere, giving you 701 00:31:19,614 --> 00:31:21,030 exclusive detail about the setting 702 00:31:21,030 --> 00:31:26,265 a whole world or characters, and things like that. 703 00:31:26,265 --> 00:31:31,504 Whereas the Euro games, the Euro games 704 00:31:31,504 --> 00:31:35,020 were originally designed for quite a different market 705 00:31:35,020 --> 00:31:37,330 from the role playing. 706 00:31:37,330 --> 00:31:39,215 Traditionally, role playing games 707 00:31:39,215 --> 00:31:41,200 are designed for enthusiasts. 708 00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:43,730 Euro games are designed for Christmas presents. 709 00:31:43,730 --> 00:31:45,460 Very specifically, they're designed 710 00:31:45,460 --> 00:31:50,155 to sell lots and lots and lots of copies at Christmas 711 00:31:50,155 --> 00:31:51,590 to families. 712 00:31:51,590 --> 00:31:53,500 So, not only had the systems have 713 00:31:53,500 --> 00:31:56,360 to be simple enough for kids to be able to learn, 714 00:31:56,360 --> 00:31:58,690 but also advanced enough for adults 715 00:31:58,690 --> 00:32:01,012 to be able to want to play them and give them away 716 00:32:01,012 --> 00:32:04,770 as gifts to other people. 717 00:32:04,770 --> 00:32:09,000 And so that's a lot of attention paid to, like, simple rules, 718 00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:12,550 very, very complex interactions. 719 00:32:12,550 --> 00:32:19,200 And I don't know what the push towards the simplicity 720 00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:21,820 of [INAUDIBLE], sort of the abstraction of, like, 721 00:32:21,820 --> 00:32:25,852 cubes and circles and maybe [INAUDIBLE] like the are, like, 722 00:32:25,852 --> 00:32:26,352 [INAUDIBLE] 723 00:32:26,352 --> 00:32:28,760 AUDIENCE: A lot of it is [INAUDIBLE] factory [INAUDIBLE] 724 00:32:28,760 --> 00:32:30,406 the one factory that makes it all. 725 00:32:30,406 --> 00:32:31,530 PROFESSOR: [INAUDIBLE] one? 726 00:32:31,530 --> 00:32:35,690 AUDIENCE: There's one factory in Germany that made most of them. 727 00:32:35,690 --> 00:32:38,250 They don't make them in China, those games. 728 00:32:38,250 --> 00:32:39,290 PROFESSOR: OK. 729 00:32:39,290 --> 00:32:41,230 So that's economy of scale there, I guess. 730 00:32:41,230 --> 00:32:43,222 [INAUDIBLE] easier to make than anything else? 731 00:32:43,222 --> 00:32:45,097 AUDIENCE: So, when it comes to-- like I said, 732 00:32:45,097 --> 00:32:47,795 Euro games are for families and Christmas presents and stuff? 733 00:32:47,795 --> 00:32:49,876 That feels kind of weird to me because I'd 734 00:32:49,876 --> 00:32:52,970 expect for children to care a lot about the presentation 735 00:32:52,970 --> 00:32:55,360 of the game. 736 00:32:55,360 --> 00:33:00,640 So, how would you reconcile that, I guess? 737 00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:04,060 PROFESSOR: I don't know much about that social dynamics 738 00:33:04,060 --> 00:33:05,520 of the Euro game family. 739 00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:08,150 Who makes the call of what game they're going to play, right? 740 00:33:08,150 --> 00:33:12,080 Is it the kids or is it the parents? 741 00:33:12,080 --> 00:33:15,269 I certainly grew up in a family where the parents would say, 742 00:33:15,269 --> 00:33:16,560 this is what we're playing now. 743 00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:18,480 We are playing "Scrabble" because mom 744 00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:21,168 likes "Scrabble" and mom will destroy all of us 745 00:33:21,168 --> 00:33:22,632 at "Scrabble". 746 00:33:25,504 --> 00:33:27,170 So I don't know if that's the same thing 747 00:33:27,170 --> 00:33:28,970 in European families. 748 00:33:28,970 --> 00:33:31,476 AUDIENCE: And so we had a professor 749 00:33:31,476 --> 00:33:34,535 come in who talked about this a couple years ago 750 00:33:34,535 --> 00:33:36,660 where one thing that happened, at least in Germany, 751 00:33:36,660 --> 00:33:41,005 is there is a conference called [INAUDIBLE] Fair? 752 00:33:41,005 --> 00:33:41,947 PROFESSOR: Trade Fair. 753 00:33:41,947 --> 00:33:43,670 AUDIENCE: Trade Fair. 754 00:33:43,670 --> 00:33:46,100 [INAUDIBLE] fair happened in Germany. 755 00:33:46,100 --> 00:33:48,420 Thousands upon thousands of people in Germany 756 00:33:48,420 --> 00:33:53,410 go to that fair to play the new games before they're published. 757 00:33:53,410 --> 00:33:55,740 And [INAUDIBLE] fairs, they give this spiel [INAUDIBLE] 758 00:33:55,740 --> 00:33:57,310 awards, the game of the year awards, 759 00:33:57,310 --> 00:33:58,990 which then if you get that award, 760 00:33:58,990 --> 00:34:01,559 they'll sell a [INAUDIBLE] 761 00:34:01,559 --> 00:34:03,600 PROFESSOR: Because every newspaper will cover it. 762 00:34:03,600 --> 00:34:05,280 AUDIENCE: All the newspapers are going to cover it. 763 00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:07,280 But those families were going to go there, play those games. 764 00:34:07,280 --> 00:34:09,405 The kids are going to be interested in those games. 765 00:34:09,405 --> 00:34:12,780 Then, when Christmas time comes around, the game they get 766 00:34:12,780 --> 00:34:15,281 is going to be the game that won the [INAUDIBLE] award, 767 00:34:15,281 --> 00:34:17,572 not necessarily the game they played at the convention. 768 00:34:17,572 --> 00:34:19,960 But that's the game that got the award. 769 00:34:19,960 --> 00:34:21,409 Everybody bought it that year. 770 00:34:21,409 --> 00:34:23,574 And the next year at flea markets, 771 00:34:23,574 --> 00:34:27,900 that game is all over the place [INAUDIBLE] So 772 00:34:27,900 --> 00:34:29,650 there's a little-- 773 00:34:29,650 --> 00:34:32,887 it's a very different kind of consumption economy going on 774 00:34:32,887 --> 00:34:33,387 over there. 775 00:34:33,387 --> 00:34:35,446 But here, it's a hobby market. 776 00:34:35,446 --> 00:34:37,323 Here, it's the [INAUDIBLE] stores. 777 00:34:37,323 --> 00:34:39,370 It's not necessarily family oriented 778 00:34:39,370 --> 00:34:42,136 at all or family [INAUDIBLE] included in a particular kind 779 00:34:42,136 --> 00:34:43,760 of family organization. 780 00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:46,084 PROFESSOR: So they're like toy [INAUDIBLE] in the US, 781 00:34:46,084 --> 00:34:48,270 then, like Tickle Me Elmo and Furby. 782 00:34:48,270 --> 00:34:50,219 AUDIENCE: Yeah, the toy fairs are-- 783 00:34:50,219 --> 00:34:54,840 yeah, in the US, they're inventors, products from China 784 00:34:54,840 --> 00:34:59,800 and again, one thing gets bought and one thing is sold 785 00:34:59,800 --> 00:35:02,370 and everybody wants that one thing every single year. 786 00:35:02,370 --> 00:35:04,828 PROFESSOR: But the majority of people who go to [INAUDIBLE] 787 00:35:04,828 --> 00:35:06,300 are, in fact, families-- 788 00:35:06,300 --> 00:35:08,076 tourists, you know. 789 00:35:08,076 --> 00:35:09,700 But a lot of them are probably tourists 790 00:35:09,700 --> 00:35:11,820 from other parts of Germany [INAUDIBLE], 791 00:35:11,820 --> 00:35:13,159 but also from Europe as a whole. 792 00:35:13,159 --> 00:35:14,700 But of course, there's a small number 793 00:35:14,700 --> 00:35:16,450 of people who are going to [INAUDIBLE] who 794 00:35:16,450 --> 00:35:19,800 are the [INAUDIBLE] the people who are going 795 00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:21,590 to decide what's [INAUDIBLE]. 796 00:35:21,590 --> 00:35:24,440 And they are looking at the families 797 00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:26,670 They're trying to figure out what 798 00:35:26,670 --> 00:35:29,040 is going to be that hot product this year 799 00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:31,190 so they can get new [? orders ?] in. 800 00:35:31,190 --> 00:35:31,689 [INAUDIBLE] 801 00:35:31,689 --> 00:35:32,615 [INTERPOSING VOICES] 802 00:35:32,615 --> 00:35:34,220 AUDIENCE: What time of year is it? 803 00:35:34,220 --> 00:35:35,015 PROFESSOR: I think it's August. 804 00:35:35,015 --> 00:35:36,320 AUDIENCE: Yeah, it's summer. 805 00:35:36,320 --> 00:35:37,140 [INAUDIBLE] 806 00:35:37,140 --> 00:35:39,590 [INTERPOSING VOICES] 807 00:35:39,590 --> 00:35:42,330 PROFESSOR: Yeah, so-- but I don't 808 00:35:42,330 --> 00:35:44,810 know the extent to which the manufacturers need 809 00:35:44,810 --> 00:35:51,420 to have lined up their pipelines before [INAUDIBLE] in order 810 00:35:51,420 --> 00:35:55,290 to be able to capitalize on the [INAUDIBLE] 811 00:35:55,290 --> 00:35:58,030 Because if you fail to miss your window-- if you get the award 812 00:35:58,030 --> 00:36:00,446 and you can't actually put [INAUDIBLE] product down there, 813 00:36:00,446 --> 00:36:02,670 then you can't make as much money as you [INAUDIBLE]. 814 00:36:02,670 --> 00:36:04,920 AUDIENCE: And the toy fairs in the US, are they mainly 815 00:36:04,920 --> 00:36:07,566 consumers going to it or the industry, the professionals, 816 00:36:07,566 --> 00:36:09,440 and they're sort of, like, rubbing shoulders? 817 00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:10,746 PROFESSOR: Press. 818 00:36:10,746 --> 00:36:12,440 Press go to toy fairs as well. 819 00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:15,250 AUDIENCE: Yes, press, industry, Walmart, basically. 820 00:36:15,250 --> 00:36:17,679 [INAUDIBLE] Walmart and a couple others. 821 00:36:17,679 --> 00:36:19,470 AUDIENCE: So it's like, you're an inventor. 822 00:36:19,470 --> 00:36:22,020 You're trying to get on Walmart's shelf. 823 00:36:22,020 --> 00:36:23,544 So that's why you go? 824 00:36:23,544 --> 00:36:24,210 PROFESSOR: Yeah. 825 00:36:24,210 --> 00:36:26,876 AUDIENCE: You're trying to find, the next hot toy for Christmas. 826 00:36:26,876 --> 00:36:28,089 And that's why they-- 827 00:36:28,089 --> 00:36:30,630 PROFESSOR: Well, I'm not so sure that the toy fairs in the US 828 00:36:30,630 --> 00:36:32,559 are that inventor friendly. 829 00:36:32,559 --> 00:36:34,600 AUDIENCE: Yeah, the inventors have already gotten 830 00:36:34,600 --> 00:36:36,330 things [? off ?] by somebody. 831 00:36:36,330 --> 00:36:37,780 So it's the publisher. 832 00:36:37,780 --> 00:36:39,270 It's the maker who has already had 833 00:36:39,270 --> 00:36:41,632 the stable of inventors they purchased the product form. 834 00:36:41,632 --> 00:36:43,330 And they're making it to this place 835 00:36:43,330 --> 00:36:44,652 to test it out, see [INAUDIBLE] 836 00:36:44,652 --> 00:36:46,360 AUDIENCE: But who are they testing it on? 837 00:36:46,360 --> 00:36:47,840 AUDIENCE: The press and the people 838 00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:49,020 who are going to sell it. 839 00:36:49,020 --> 00:36:50,810 But-- [INAUDIBLE] Exactly. 840 00:36:50,810 --> 00:36:51,820 AUDIENCE: Isn't [INAUDIBLE] backwards, though? 841 00:36:51,820 --> 00:36:52,680 Because it's the consumer that's going 842 00:36:52,680 --> 00:36:54,051 to be buying it, not the-- 843 00:36:54,051 --> 00:36:55,462 AUDIENCE: The consumer doesn't have a need for it 844 00:36:55,462 --> 00:36:57,003 until they find out about it, though. 845 00:36:57,003 --> 00:36:58,400 It's a very different process. 846 00:36:58,400 --> 00:37:00,720 The consumer is like, when you look at toys, 847 00:37:00,720 --> 00:37:02,760 just look at the US toy industry. 848 00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:04,230 The customer just isn't involved. 849 00:37:04,230 --> 00:37:06,680 AUDIENCE: It's just whatever the hype machine builds up? 850 00:37:06,680 --> 00:37:08,221 AUDIENCE: Yep, whichever hype machine 851 00:37:08,221 --> 00:37:09,740 has the most money behind it gets 852 00:37:09,740 --> 00:37:11,330 the product on the shelves. 853 00:37:11,330 --> 00:37:13,621 And these days, it's [INAUDIBLE] properties [INAUDIBLE] 854 00:37:13,621 --> 00:37:16,390 trans media, but like, most media properties. 855 00:37:16,390 --> 00:37:20,270 There's-- the game, the toy, the [INAUDIBLE], the comic, 856 00:37:20,270 --> 00:37:21,217 everything around it. 857 00:37:21,217 --> 00:37:22,550 AUDIENCE: Like a multi platform. 858 00:37:22,550 --> 00:37:23,904 AUDIENCE: Yeah, yeah. 859 00:37:23,904 --> 00:37:25,320 PROFESSOR: [INAUDIBLE] because you 860 00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:28,260 have multiple advertising campaigns pushing 861 00:37:28,260 --> 00:37:29,400 each one of these threads. 862 00:37:29,400 --> 00:37:31,390 But they're also sort of pushing the entire [INAUDIBLE]. 863 00:37:31,390 --> 00:37:33,473 AUDIENCE: If this is something of interest to you, 864 00:37:33,473 --> 00:37:34,920 go to a Walgreens or a CVS. 865 00:37:34,920 --> 00:37:38,980 Go to the toy area, and look at the toys that have really 866 00:37:38,980 --> 00:37:42,010 poorly designed games on the back of them just 867 00:37:42,010 --> 00:37:44,333 to kind of see, like, these are the things [INAUDIBLE]. 868 00:37:44,333 --> 00:37:46,074 Somebody made it. 869 00:37:46,074 --> 00:37:47,648 It didn't get much press. 870 00:37:47,648 --> 00:37:49,356 It didn't get that [INAUDIBLE] behind it. 871 00:37:49,356 --> 00:37:52,330 And just, these are [INAUDIBLE] what 872 00:37:52,330 --> 00:37:54,716 is the effort they put into that thing? 873 00:37:54,716 --> 00:37:56,340 For the most part, it's just packaging. 874 00:37:56,340 --> 00:37:57,500 The actual thing [? that's inside ?] of the 875 00:37:57,500 --> 00:37:57,999 package. 876 00:38:00,620 --> 00:38:03,124 PROFESSOR: I'm trying to think. 877 00:38:03,124 --> 00:38:05,070 Where is the big toy fair in the US? 878 00:38:05,070 --> 00:38:06,260 AUDIENCE: In New York. 879 00:38:06,260 --> 00:38:09,694 PROFESSOR: In New York f Do you know when it is, ish? 880 00:38:09,694 --> 00:38:10,610 The summer, I suppose? 881 00:38:10,610 --> 00:38:13,090 AUDIENCE: I want to say summer because [INAUDIBLE] 882 00:38:13,090 --> 00:38:14,650 Toys "R" Us. 883 00:38:14,650 --> 00:38:17,480 Well, I helped [INAUDIBLE] Toys "R" Us [INAUDIBLE] 884 00:38:17,480 --> 00:38:20,892 do this thing for a toy fair. 885 00:38:20,892 --> 00:38:23,660 I want to say but I could be wrong. 886 00:38:23,660 --> 00:38:25,159 PROFESSOR: Did you [INAUDIBLE]? 887 00:38:25,159 --> 00:38:26,450 AUDIENCE: I didn't actually go. 888 00:38:26,450 --> 00:38:27,574 I just shipped the product. 889 00:38:27,574 --> 00:38:32,896 PROFESSOR: OK, so, my [INAUDIBLE] 890 00:38:32,896 --> 00:38:37,730 You may see a [INAUDIBLE] collectors, in particular. 891 00:38:37,730 --> 00:38:40,140 AUDIENCE: My customer was, like, they made 892 00:38:40,140 --> 00:38:42,300 point of purchase displays. 893 00:38:42,300 --> 00:38:44,930 They made point of purchase displays for retail outlets 894 00:38:44,930 --> 00:38:47,080 and it was like a huge deal for them. 895 00:38:47,080 --> 00:38:49,330 PROFESSOR: OK, so this is where they're selling things 896 00:38:49,330 --> 00:38:53,260 to stores to sell things, not the actual product that 897 00:38:53,260 --> 00:38:54,730 [INAUDIBLE]. 898 00:38:54,730 --> 00:38:56,060 Be caring sure. 899 00:38:56,060 --> 00:38:57,089 [INAUDIBLE] 900 00:38:57,089 --> 00:38:57,880 AUDIENCE: February. 901 00:38:57,880 --> 00:38:59,550 PROFESSOR: February? 902 00:38:59,550 --> 00:39:00,050 Gee. 903 00:39:00,050 --> 00:39:02,220 AUDIENCE: Toy fair in New York-- 904 00:39:02,220 --> 00:39:04,280 2015, February 14 [INAUDIBLE]. 905 00:39:04,280 --> 00:39:05,540 PROFESSOR: Oh good lord. 906 00:39:05,540 --> 00:39:08,517 February-- OK. 907 00:39:08,517 --> 00:39:10,600 I have a lot more to learn about the toy industry. 908 00:39:10,600 --> 00:39:12,370 AUDIENCE: So I guess it's Valentine's Day, 909 00:39:12,370 --> 00:39:13,876 after cards, then toys. 910 00:39:17,245 --> 00:39:18,620 PROFESSOR: The other thing that I 911 00:39:18,620 --> 00:39:21,036 thought was actually kind of interesting in the video that 912 00:39:21,036 --> 00:39:25,280 was how he was talking with the folks at [INAUDIBLE]. 913 00:39:25,280 --> 00:39:28,760 And he was describing about embodying the player, 914 00:39:28,760 --> 00:39:32,270 giving the player something that he can identify with either 915 00:39:32,270 --> 00:39:35,810 on the board or if all else fails, somewhere 916 00:39:35,810 --> 00:39:41,210 in the packaging, something that he can project himself into. 917 00:39:41,210 --> 00:39:45,590 I'm not entirely sure if that is sort of universally accepted 918 00:39:45,590 --> 00:39:47,990 across all publishers or even conventional wisdom 919 00:39:47,990 --> 00:39:50,927 across the board game industry, but it's certainly 920 00:39:50,927 --> 00:39:52,760 interesting to see it from the point of view 921 00:39:52,760 --> 00:39:54,880 of one publisher saying, this is something 922 00:39:54,880 --> 00:39:58,280 important about the games that we want to publish. 923 00:39:58,280 --> 00:40:02,460 And we got a little bit of this from the [INAUDIBLE] gaming 924 00:40:02,460 --> 00:40:03,860 [INAUDIBLE] the other day. 925 00:40:03,860 --> 00:40:07,190 But it's [INAUDIBLE] I tend to go to the publisher 926 00:40:07,190 --> 00:40:09,545 and try to say, this is a game that [? could be ?] 927 00:40:09,545 --> 00:40:13,562 interesting, definitely try to do some research on not just 928 00:40:13,562 --> 00:40:16,020 the kind of games that they make, but also how they present 929 00:40:16,020 --> 00:40:17,228 those games to people, right? 930 00:40:17,228 --> 00:40:21,639 You know, you can probably make a good game. 931 00:40:21,639 --> 00:40:23,430 Like, the people who are at those companies 932 00:40:23,430 --> 00:40:25,130 have seen enough good games to be 933 00:40:25,130 --> 00:40:30,150 able to see past anything you may have missed. 934 00:40:30,150 --> 00:40:32,990 But it might improve your pitch a little bit and say, 935 00:40:32,990 --> 00:40:35,930 we've taken into account that you like-- 936 00:40:35,930 --> 00:40:39,270 I've taken into account that you like to position your games, 937 00:40:39,270 --> 00:40:41,580 present your games a certain way. 938 00:40:41,580 --> 00:40:44,301 And this is how you could do it with the game 939 00:40:44,301 --> 00:40:46,550 that I'm pitching to you, even though what I'm showing 940 00:40:46,550 --> 00:40:47,591 right now, the prototype. 941 00:40:47,591 --> 00:40:48,530 They didn't have that. 942 00:40:48,530 --> 00:40:51,430 Just being able to be able to speak to that means [INAUDIBLE] 943 00:40:51,430 --> 00:40:56,340 you're aware of the company's strategy and how [INAUDIBLE]. 944 00:40:56,340 --> 00:41:00,215 So if you are talking to a publisher, which generally does 945 00:41:00,215 --> 00:41:04,000 [INAUDIBLE] you know, I don't know 946 00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:08,080 who publishes [INAUDIBLE] but someone does, 947 00:41:08,080 --> 00:41:11,310 because I [INAUDIBLE]. 948 00:41:11,310 --> 00:41:14,630 But to say that this particular set of game mechanics 949 00:41:14,630 --> 00:41:17,840 would be a great tie in for this particular property 950 00:41:17,840 --> 00:41:19,610 or something that you already have. 951 00:41:19,610 --> 00:41:22,026 Even though that may not be something that you want to do, 952 00:41:22,026 --> 00:41:23,907 it's probably good for a publisher 953 00:41:23,907 --> 00:41:25,615 to be able to realize that you understand 954 00:41:25,615 --> 00:41:29,070 [INAUDIBLE] particular section of the business that you're in. 955 00:41:29,070 --> 00:41:31,030 AUDIENCE: It's also some so Fantasy Flight, 956 00:41:31,030 --> 00:41:33,455 don't want you to have IP attached to your games. 957 00:41:33,455 --> 00:41:35,330 They're going to bring their IP to the games. 958 00:41:35,330 --> 00:41:36,288 So they want mechanics. 959 00:41:36,288 --> 00:41:37,270 They want rules. 960 00:41:37,270 --> 00:41:39,860 They want how it's going to play, 961 00:41:39,860 --> 00:41:43,185 but they don't care about--- the space travel game. 962 00:41:43,185 --> 00:41:44,655 You might sell for them. 963 00:41:44,655 --> 00:41:46,780 And they say, all right, it's a [INAUDIBLE] fantasy 964 00:41:46,780 --> 00:41:49,042 game, the IP [INAUDIBLE] with us here. 965 00:41:49,042 --> 00:41:50,500 PROFESSOR: Also, probably gives you 966 00:41:50,500 --> 00:41:52,270 an idea of the kind of deal and contract 967 00:41:52,270 --> 00:41:53,919 you can get out of them. 968 00:41:53,919 --> 00:41:55,460 Because if you say you want to retain 969 00:41:55,460 --> 00:42:00,570 absolute creative control on it and determine the art that's 970 00:42:00,570 --> 00:42:03,127 going to go on the box or something like that, 971 00:42:03,127 --> 00:42:05,460 you might even be able to get that contract from someone 972 00:42:05,460 --> 00:42:07,160 like Fantasy Flight, but it's something 973 00:42:07,160 --> 00:42:08,460 that might be negotiable for-- 974 00:42:08,460 --> 00:42:11,864 AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE] there you would talk to them 975 00:42:11,864 --> 00:42:14,030 about what Kickstarter campaign you're going to run. 976 00:42:14,030 --> 00:42:15,660 That's what they're going to do-- a Kickstarter 977 00:42:15,660 --> 00:42:18,072 campaign with the game that they're publishing with you. 978 00:42:20,394 --> 00:42:22,810 PROFESSOR: So in other words, before you go and do a pitch 979 00:42:22,810 --> 00:42:25,730 at the publisher, just don't go in with a [? generic ?] pitch. 980 00:42:25,730 --> 00:42:30,417 [INAUDIBLE] go into something like a convention. 981 00:42:30,417 --> 00:42:32,500 You know, there are games that just have different 982 00:42:32,500 --> 00:42:34,840 [INAUDIBLE], for instance. 983 00:42:34,840 --> 00:42:36,530 [INAUDIBLE] of EB Games. 984 00:42:36,530 --> 00:42:38,790 There's one that's going to be right here on campus. 985 00:42:38,790 --> 00:42:40,460 If you've got a prototype that you 986 00:42:40,460 --> 00:42:44,020 want to let people know about and make-- 987 00:42:44,020 --> 00:42:45,770 I guess we don't get many publishers here, 988 00:42:45,770 --> 00:42:46,562 but you might get-- 989 00:42:46,562 --> 00:42:48,519 AUDIENCE: That's probably going to change soon. 990 00:42:48,519 --> 00:42:50,360 PROFESSOR: Yeah, Gathering of Friends 991 00:42:50,360 --> 00:42:56,690 is one such group where you have inventors and publishers all 992 00:42:56,690 --> 00:42:57,904 sitting at a big table. 993 00:42:57,904 --> 00:43:00,195 You don't need to [INAUDIBLE] prepare something special 994 00:43:00,195 --> 00:43:02,622 for publishers [INAUDIBLE] because they show you 995 00:43:02,622 --> 00:43:04,150 to multiple publishers at once. 996 00:43:04,150 --> 00:43:05,774 [INAUDIBLE] actually going to submit it 997 00:43:05,774 --> 00:43:07,160 to Hasbro or something that. 998 00:43:07,160 --> 00:43:12,710 You might just want to say this might make a great Transformers 999 00:43:12,710 --> 00:43:19,132 game because parts connect to each other or object 1000 00:43:19,132 --> 00:43:20,840 [INAUDIBLE] mode, or something with that. 1001 00:43:23,570 --> 00:43:25,640 Yeah, that's what I want to say about that. 1002 00:43:29,000 --> 00:43:31,030 So, today is [INAUDIBLE] play test day. 1003 00:43:31,030 --> 00:43:33,320 It's almost 2:00. 1004 00:43:33,320 --> 00:43:35,650 We had all our parts up here. 1005 00:43:35,650 --> 00:43:39,771 So, how about we start play test at 3 o'clock? 1006 00:43:39,771 --> 00:43:41,560 That should probably give you enough time 1007 00:43:41,560 --> 00:43:46,420 to be able to get something playable by then, I'm hoping. 1008 00:43:46,420 --> 00:43:48,750 Figure out what you want to test, 1009 00:43:48,750 --> 00:43:50,680 how you're going to present it to people, 1010 00:43:50,680 --> 00:43:56,600 and what questions you need answered to [INAUDIBLE]