1 00:00:00,090 --> 00:00:02,490 The following content is provided under a Creative 2 00:00:02,490 --> 00:00:04,030 Commons license. 3 00:00:04,030 --> 00:00:06,330 Your support will help MIT OpenCourseWare 4 00:00:06,330 --> 00:00:10,690 continue to offer high quality educational resources for free. 5 00:00:10,690 --> 00:00:13,320 To make a donation or view additional materials 6 00:00:13,320 --> 00:00:17,280 from hundreds of MIT courses, visit MIT OpenCourseWare 7 00:00:17,280 --> 00:00:20,530 at ocw.mit.edu. 8 00:00:20,530 --> 00:00:22,310 PROFESSOR: I'd like to introduce Jesper. 9 00:00:22,310 --> 00:00:25,320 Jesper Juul is a old friend of the lab 10 00:00:25,320 --> 00:00:30,850 and currently at the Royal Danish Academy-- 11 00:00:30,850 --> 00:00:32,225 So it is very long. 12 00:00:32,225 --> 00:00:34,058 JESPER JUUL: It's actually longer than this. 13 00:00:34,058 --> 00:00:36,600 Royal Danish Academy of Fine Arts Schools 14 00:00:36,600 --> 00:00:40,180 of Architecture Conservation and Design, School of Design. 15 00:00:40,180 --> 00:00:42,960 PROFESSOR: Right. 16 00:00:42,960 --> 00:00:46,970 And you've also taught at NYU. 17 00:00:46,970 --> 00:00:49,200 You're a visiting professor here. 18 00:00:49,200 --> 00:00:55,369 And you've been a games scholar for a decade now? 19 00:00:55,369 --> 00:00:57,035 JESPER JUUL: Yeah, a bit more than that. 20 00:00:57,035 --> 00:00:58,743 PROFESSOR: Maybe it's more than a decade. 21 00:01:01,950 --> 00:01:04,170 If you take a bunch of the classes here, 22 00:01:04,170 --> 00:01:08,220 we sometimes have readings from Jesper-- articles 23 00:01:08,220 --> 00:01:10,130 that he's written. 24 00:01:10,130 --> 00:01:16,650 But this is another example of the talks 25 00:01:16,650 --> 00:01:19,770 that we've been having on this is what people do once they 26 00:01:19,770 --> 00:01:21,210 understand game design, right? 27 00:01:21,210 --> 00:01:23,240 Some people study games. 28 00:01:23,240 --> 00:01:27,420 Some people do research and write books about it. 29 00:01:27,420 --> 00:01:29,670 And ask interesting questions that 30 00:01:29,670 --> 00:01:32,730 try to find out more about what makes games fascinating. 31 00:01:32,730 --> 00:01:36,735 Or what makes the environment in which we create games 32 00:01:36,735 --> 00:01:40,120 or we play games interesting. 33 00:01:40,120 --> 00:01:42,924 So with that, I'd like hand it over to Jesper. 34 00:01:42,924 --> 00:01:43,590 JESPER JUUL: Hi. 35 00:01:43,590 --> 00:01:48,420 PROFESSOR: And this is game design 608. 36 00:01:48,420 --> 00:01:54,300 JESPER JUUL: Hello, game design 608. 37 00:01:54,300 --> 00:01:58,794 So are you doing digital games, or analog games, or? 38 00:01:58,794 --> 00:02:00,520 We're doing analog. 39 00:02:00,520 --> 00:02:02,220 JESPER JUUL: Analog, all right. 40 00:02:02,220 --> 00:02:05,620 So I think I'll mostly be talking about digital games 41 00:02:05,620 --> 00:02:08,360 right now, but I think it probably 42 00:02:08,360 --> 00:02:11,450 applies to some extent. 43 00:02:11,450 --> 00:02:14,490 Phil, introduced me so nicely. 44 00:02:14,490 --> 00:02:18,180 So this is really a part of a conference presentation 45 00:02:18,180 --> 00:02:21,850 I did earlier in April. 46 00:02:21,850 --> 00:02:25,140 And so if you're interested in reading the full paper, 47 00:02:25,140 --> 00:02:27,600 it's on my website. 48 00:02:27,600 --> 00:02:30,410 And it's kind of URL or independent style. 49 00:02:30,410 --> 00:02:32,850 And if you just go to /text you'll see some of the other 50 00:02:32,850 --> 00:02:35,630 stuff I've written. 51 00:02:35,630 --> 00:02:39,600 And I've written a few books about video games. 52 00:02:39,600 --> 00:02:45,610 So I wrote one about video games and storytelling. 53 00:02:45,610 --> 00:02:47,970 And one about casual games. 54 00:02:47,970 --> 00:02:51,030 And my most recent one, called The Art of Failure 55 00:02:51,030 --> 00:02:54,400 is, in a way, about being a sore loser. 56 00:02:54,400 --> 00:02:57,950 So it's an essay on the pain of playing video games. 57 00:02:57,950 --> 00:03:01,670 So I focus on the question of why 58 00:03:01,670 --> 00:03:04,660 we claim we enjoy video games even though if you look 59 00:03:04,660 --> 00:03:07,200 at people who claim that, they often look quite unhappy 60 00:03:07,200 --> 00:03:08,040 actually. 61 00:03:08,040 --> 00:03:10,610 So it's a discussion on that. 62 00:03:10,610 --> 00:03:14,692 But this one is a social study of different things 63 00:03:14,692 --> 00:03:18,650 across the culture of independent games. 64 00:03:18,650 --> 00:03:24,330 And so, there seems to be a kind of consensus 65 00:03:24,330 --> 00:03:27,420 that independent games would become a important aspect 66 00:03:27,420 --> 00:03:29,850 of game culture. 67 00:03:29,850 --> 00:03:33,040 And you can see this in several ways-- 68 00:03:33,040 --> 00:03:35,866 with a very cheap kind of Google engram way 69 00:03:35,866 --> 00:03:39,070 of showing that something is popular. 70 00:03:39,070 --> 00:03:41,910 I don't know if anybody knows why it's never flat, 71 00:03:41,910 --> 00:03:42,420 this curve. 72 00:03:42,420 --> 00:03:43,740 Does somebody know? 73 00:03:43,740 --> 00:03:46,590 So in economic game theory, there's 74 00:03:46,590 --> 00:03:48,650 actually a concept called independent game. 75 00:03:48,650 --> 00:03:52,260 So it means a game that's not attached to other games. 76 00:03:52,260 --> 00:03:54,560 So that's why it's never quite fled the curve. 77 00:03:54,560 --> 00:03:57,750 But it shows you that, from 2000 on, 78 00:03:57,750 --> 00:04:00,234 people started talking about independent games. 79 00:04:00,234 --> 00:04:02,530 And you can also see that somebody at Microsoft, 80 00:04:02,530 --> 00:04:05,900 they could spend a good deal of energy 81 00:04:05,900 --> 00:04:08,094 to claim how independent game friendly 82 00:04:08,094 --> 00:04:10,435 they are with the new console. 83 00:04:10,435 --> 00:04:11,890 [INAUDIBLE] 84 00:04:11,890 --> 00:04:15,082 And we can tell by-- probably a few different reasons why we 85 00:04:15,082 --> 00:04:16,290 talk about independent games. 86 00:04:16,290 --> 00:04:19,019 And one of them may be the budgets 87 00:04:19,019 --> 00:04:21,541 have become too big and too late development. 88 00:04:21,541 --> 00:04:23,499 So there is this kind of opening for games that 89 00:04:23,499 --> 00:04:25,220 are made on a smaller budget. 90 00:04:25,220 --> 00:04:29,070 And also that it's become easier to distribute games. 91 00:04:29,070 --> 00:04:31,190 So it used to be, in order to distribute a game, 92 00:04:31,190 --> 00:04:33,820 you had to find a disc and a box. 93 00:04:33,820 --> 00:04:36,160 And that's no longer true, fortunately. 94 00:04:36,160 --> 00:04:38,640 And this means it's become possible to make games 95 00:04:38,640 --> 00:04:40,582 in different styles. 96 00:04:40,582 --> 00:04:43,320 And they also found that there's this thing that-- 97 00:04:43,320 --> 00:04:46,730 which can sound kind of weird-- 98 00:04:46,730 --> 00:04:48,835 the independent games, in a way, pre-supposed 99 00:04:48,835 --> 00:04:50,934 the idea of independent games. 100 00:04:50,934 --> 00:04:53,690 So let me explain what that means. 101 00:04:53,690 --> 00:04:57,850 If you're making a game on a small budget, 102 00:04:57,850 --> 00:05:01,060 one of the things you need to be able to be sure of 103 00:05:01,060 --> 00:05:03,600 is that people who see your game, 104 00:05:03,600 --> 00:05:07,080 don't just think of it as a game with too small a budget-- 105 00:05:07,080 --> 00:05:08,840 that they actually understand that this 106 00:05:08,840 --> 00:05:11,850 is a game that has some positive qualities to it. 107 00:05:11,850 --> 00:05:13,400 Or that there's a particular reason 108 00:05:13,400 --> 00:05:14,545 why it has a small budget. 109 00:05:14,545 --> 00:05:16,790 Or the fact that a bigger budget wouldn't 110 00:05:16,790 --> 00:05:19,130 have made this game any better. 111 00:05:19,130 --> 00:05:22,550 And so I think that the idea of the independent game 112 00:05:22,550 --> 00:05:25,120 is really that idea that you can actually say 113 00:05:25,120 --> 00:05:26,685 I'm making an independent game. 114 00:05:26,685 --> 00:05:29,100 And people will understand that this 115 00:05:29,100 --> 00:05:31,400 is a game that has a particular set of qualities 116 00:05:31,400 --> 00:05:32,990 where it's a feature-- 117 00:05:32,990 --> 00:05:37,622 the fact that it's a game with a small budget. 118 00:05:37,622 --> 00:05:40,690 And so, it doesn't mean-- you can see the question, what 119 00:05:40,690 --> 00:05:42,910 makes people assume that something 120 00:05:42,910 --> 00:05:45,820 is an independent game when they see it? 121 00:05:45,820 --> 00:05:47,890 I don't think it's just that it says 122 00:05:47,890 --> 00:05:49,355 independent game somewhere. 123 00:05:49,355 --> 00:05:51,730 But I do think there's actually a particular style that's 124 00:05:51,730 --> 00:05:53,500 come into independent games. 125 00:05:53,500 --> 00:05:55,601 [INAUDIBLE] 126 00:05:55,601 --> 00:05:57,350 JESPER JUUL: Essentially you see that when 127 00:05:57,350 --> 00:06:00,220 people write about independent games, 128 00:06:00,220 --> 00:06:01,780 the first thing everybody will say 129 00:06:01,780 --> 00:06:04,270 is that you can't define anything. 130 00:06:04,270 --> 00:06:07,250 It's the first thing you have to say. 131 00:06:07,250 --> 00:06:10,480 So you always have people say that you can't define it 132 00:06:10,480 --> 00:06:13,800 because this creates discord in the game community. 133 00:06:13,800 --> 00:06:16,890 Or you want to talk about independent in different ways, 134 00:06:16,890 --> 00:06:19,477 economic, technological, or cultural status. 135 00:06:19,477 --> 00:06:21,310 And then the third people say, well, there's 136 00:06:21,310 --> 00:06:23,845 no point in trying to define independent games 137 00:06:23,845 --> 00:06:25,390 in the first place. 138 00:06:25,390 --> 00:06:29,230 So I think that's actually [INAUDIBLE] 139 00:06:29,230 --> 00:06:31,130 On the other hand, if you look at what 140 00:06:31,130 --> 00:06:34,280 people who make independent games say 141 00:06:34,280 --> 00:06:36,920 there's actually a lot of things in common. 142 00:06:36,920 --> 00:06:40,940 So Dan Cook talked about that independent games largely 143 00:06:40,940 --> 00:06:44,410 favor someone who's authentic and deserving. 144 00:06:44,410 --> 00:06:47,060 Edmund McMillen liked to talk about honesty and speaking 145 00:06:47,060 --> 00:06:47,810 from your heart. 146 00:06:47,810 --> 00:06:52,270 He made Super Meat Boy, and Dan Cook made Triple Town. 147 00:06:52,270 --> 00:06:54,890 And [? Robert ?] [? Aumann ?] talks about your personal 148 00:06:54,890 --> 00:06:57,272 relationship with the work-- to independent games. 149 00:06:57,272 --> 00:06:59,480 [INAUDIBLE] [? Chavez ?] a whole discussion comparing 150 00:06:59,480 --> 00:07:02,520 independent games to funk music-- 151 00:07:02,520 --> 00:07:07,730 small, kind of personal, anyone can do it kind of thing. 152 00:07:07,730 --> 00:07:09,530 And various [INAUDIBLE] has talked 153 00:07:09,530 --> 00:07:12,763 about the smaller budgets allowing games 154 00:07:12,763 --> 00:07:15,840 to be more personal, more relevant. 155 00:07:15,840 --> 00:07:19,820 And so I think these are quite similar in some ways. 156 00:07:19,820 --> 00:07:23,250 So they talk about the honest and the traditional 157 00:07:23,250 --> 00:07:25,030 and, what I call, minimal complexity. 158 00:07:25,030 --> 00:07:28,480 You can understand who made the game. 159 00:07:28,480 --> 00:07:31,700 Like we talked about just before with Kickstarter-- 160 00:07:31,700 --> 00:07:35,265 if you buy Triple-A game it's not 161 00:07:35,265 --> 00:07:37,670 necessarily clear who actually made the game. 162 00:07:37,670 --> 00:07:40,670 And with independent games, there's much more of an idea 163 00:07:40,670 --> 00:07:44,120 that you will have a feeling of the author's-- of the 164 00:07:44,120 --> 00:07:47,728 creator's-- personality. 165 00:07:47,728 --> 00:07:50,630 All right, so you see that these are 166 00:07:50,630 --> 00:07:56,200 what I call moral and aesthetic claims at the same time. 167 00:07:56,200 --> 00:08:02,070 So it's not just saying that these are better games. 168 00:08:02,070 --> 00:08:03,700 It's a bit more deep than that. 169 00:08:03,700 --> 00:08:07,740 It's also saying that this is a better way of making a game. 170 00:08:07,740 --> 00:08:11,360 So not just that it will be a better product, 171 00:08:11,360 --> 00:08:15,132 but that, even say, the quality of life of someone who makes 172 00:08:15,132 --> 00:08:16,340 an indie game will be better. 173 00:08:16,340 --> 00:08:19,600 But also that we will all be better off if more people make 174 00:08:19,600 --> 00:08:20,470 independent games. 175 00:08:20,470 --> 00:08:23,410 We'll have more communication, and more ideas 176 00:08:23,410 --> 00:08:26,380 being spread, and more diversity, and so on. 177 00:08:29,690 --> 00:08:33,320 Now, the thing is this is not exactly new. 178 00:08:33,320 --> 00:08:41,260 So this is called the trellis wallpaper 179 00:08:41,260 --> 00:08:45,970 by William Morris and Philip Webb from 1862. 180 00:08:45,970 --> 00:08:49,780 So one of the things that strikes you as indie 181 00:08:49,780 --> 00:08:52,830 is that it actually is quite similar to somethings that 182 00:08:52,830 --> 00:08:54,870 have happened several times. 183 00:08:54,870 --> 00:08:56,650 But I think particularly it happened 184 00:08:56,650 --> 00:09:01,702 with the arts and crafts movement of the 19th century. 185 00:09:01,702 --> 00:09:03,910 So you can see when we talk about independent games I 186 00:09:03,910 --> 00:09:07,720 do think it ties into several things such as the idea of DIY 187 00:09:07,720 --> 00:09:12,250 or the maker movement or the idea of local food production, 188 00:09:12,250 --> 00:09:15,130 like the locavore movement-- this idea that if you go 189 00:09:15,130 --> 00:09:20,057 to a restaurant you should know where the chicken you 190 00:09:20,057 --> 00:09:22,200 ate actually came from. 191 00:09:22,200 --> 00:09:24,523 Only yesterday I was at this restaurant called Emu-- 192 00:09:24,523 --> 00:09:27,790 I didn't know [INAUDIBLE] and they did list, 193 00:09:27,790 --> 00:09:31,240 on the left side of the menu, all of the farms 194 00:09:31,240 --> 00:09:32,615 where they get their ingredients. 195 00:09:32,615 --> 00:09:35,550 And it has this kind of like, wow, isn't it amazing. 196 00:09:35,550 --> 00:09:39,580 And of course I've never heard of any of those farms. 197 00:09:39,580 --> 00:09:41,500 I have no idea where they are. 198 00:09:41,500 --> 00:09:43,000 But it kind of still works for me 199 00:09:43,000 --> 00:09:46,205 because you can understand that there's 200 00:09:46,205 --> 00:09:49,920 a kind of honesty or something authentic about it. 201 00:09:49,920 --> 00:09:53,460 But the arts and crafts movement, 202 00:09:53,460 --> 00:09:57,130 specifically discussed as being this late-19th century 203 00:09:57,130 --> 00:10:02,030 movement, where people reacted against the industrialization 204 00:10:02,030 --> 00:10:03,115 and machine production. 205 00:10:03,115 --> 00:10:05,950 And they felt that this included a loss 206 00:10:05,950 --> 00:10:07,730 of quality or personality. 207 00:10:07,730 --> 00:10:10,670 So that you didn't even know who made the product. 208 00:10:10,670 --> 00:10:13,170 And the product itself would be, kind of, worse. 209 00:10:13,170 --> 00:10:18,530 And then the proponents of John Ruskin-- 210 00:10:18,530 --> 00:10:22,820 he talked about this idea that in medieval times 211 00:10:22,820 --> 00:10:26,120 there was a much better-- you had the [INAUDIBLE] 212 00:10:26,120 --> 00:10:28,850 by the medieval guild, kind of a small group of people 213 00:10:28,850 --> 00:10:31,580 making something like a Gothic building. 214 00:10:31,580 --> 00:10:36,460 And William Morris talks about this idea that handicrafts-- 215 00:10:36,460 --> 00:10:39,230 the craftsperson making something 216 00:10:39,230 --> 00:10:41,110 that's much better than what would 217 00:10:41,110 --> 00:10:43,150 be made by machine production. 218 00:10:43,150 --> 00:10:45,040 And again, not just that. 219 00:10:45,040 --> 00:10:48,110 It would be better products, but that society 220 00:10:48,110 --> 00:10:50,420 at large, the world, would be a better place 221 00:10:50,420 --> 00:10:53,221 if we made things that way. 222 00:10:53,221 --> 00:10:56,680 And I do think you can say that-- 223 00:10:56,680 --> 00:10:59,360 I think it's very clear, with the idea of independent games. 224 00:10:59,360 --> 00:11:00,800 It's kind of similar in the sense 225 00:11:00,800 --> 00:11:04,630 that when they talked about the revival of the craftsmanship 226 00:11:04,630 --> 00:11:06,870 and handicrafts, that we actually 227 00:11:06,870 --> 00:11:10,330 get a big machine, or big corporate productions-- 228 00:11:10,330 --> 00:11:12,824 a mass production. 229 00:11:12,824 --> 00:11:14,240 And I think, very similar, you can 230 00:11:14,240 --> 00:11:17,660 say that independent games are a reaction against very large 231 00:11:17,660 --> 00:11:19,980 Triple-A production teams. 232 00:11:19,980 --> 00:11:22,930 And so we have this idea that we should return to the smaller 233 00:11:22,930 --> 00:11:27,050 productions, and this will make everybody-- everything better 234 00:11:27,050 --> 00:11:28,568 on a number of levels. 235 00:11:31,935 --> 00:11:32,810 Does that make sense? 236 00:11:35,830 --> 00:11:37,790 I don't know, do you have strong feelings 237 00:11:37,790 --> 00:11:38,896 about independent games? 238 00:11:43,320 --> 00:11:51,395 AUDIENCE: An independent game that you get [INAUDIBLE] 239 00:11:51,395 --> 00:11:56,345 AUDIENCE: I do completely [INAUDIBLE] 240 00:11:56,345 --> 00:11:59,315 I think independent games now have more freedom 241 00:11:59,315 --> 00:12:03,760 to explore different mechanics and step away 242 00:12:03,760 --> 00:12:10,620 from what sells because they don't have the million dollar 243 00:12:10,620 --> 00:12:13,542 investments that they have to make sure it sells. 244 00:12:13,542 --> 00:12:15,246 And they don't have to be like, oh, it's 245 00:12:15,246 --> 00:12:19,386 been proven to do well with the market. 246 00:12:19,386 --> 00:12:21,334 And they have more freedom in that way. 247 00:12:21,334 --> 00:12:25,250 [INAUDIBLE] 248 00:12:25,250 --> 00:12:26,487 JESPER JUUL: Yeah. 249 00:12:26,487 --> 00:12:28,570 AUDIENCE: So I found that, just for me personally, 250 00:12:28,570 --> 00:12:31,350 I don't really play games unless I'm 251 00:12:31,350 --> 00:12:32,665 planning on playing them a lot. 252 00:12:32,665 --> 00:12:34,640 So I play competitively League of Legends 253 00:12:34,640 --> 00:12:36,751 or [INAUDIBLE] Brothers. 254 00:12:36,751 --> 00:12:39,000 And some of the problems I have with independent games 255 00:12:39,000 --> 00:12:42,542 is that I don't feel like they're as developed. 256 00:12:42,542 --> 00:12:44,412 They're generally on the more creative side. 257 00:12:44,412 --> 00:12:46,870 Which is definitely something appreciable but not something 258 00:12:46,870 --> 00:12:47,460 that I enjoy. 259 00:12:47,460 --> 00:12:52,440 I prefer getting very good at, physically, mechanics and such. 260 00:12:52,440 --> 00:12:54,750 JESPER JUUL: Yeah, I guess, [INAUDIBLE] multi-player 261 00:12:54,750 --> 00:12:56,680 actually does not [INAUDIBLE] adaptable. 262 00:12:56,680 --> 00:12:59,386 There's this new collection out called [INAUDIBLE] 263 00:12:59,386 --> 00:13:01,140 Does anybody play that? 264 00:13:01,140 --> 00:13:03,708 AUDIENCE: [? Bobby ?] [? Pinchot ?] [INAUDIBLE] 265 00:13:03,708 --> 00:13:04,583 AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE] 266 00:13:04,583 --> 00:13:07,050 [INTERPOSING VOICES] 267 00:13:07,050 --> 00:13:10,247 JESPER JUUL: Yeah, that's true it's not, 268 00:13:10,247 --> 00:13:12,070 in a way, a competitive sport. 269 00:13:12,070 --> 00:13:14,014 It's not that at all. 270 00:13:14,014 --> 00:13:17,920 There's a game I like, [INAUDIBLE]. 271 00:13:17,920 --> 00:13:19,160 Yeah. 272 00:13:19,160 --> 00:13:24,130 So that's kind of part of that complex. 273 00:13:24,130 --> 00:13:27,963 AUDIENCE: So kind of on the opposite note, I think, 274 00:13:27,963 --> 00:13:30,149 not all, but a lot of independent games have 275 00:13:30,149 --> 00:13:34,526 the ability to just be quicker in single-player mode because-- 276 00:13:34,526 --> 00:13:36,308 While not all competitive aspects 277 00:13:36,308 --> 00:13:38,474 might be not be there, because massive multi-players 278 00:13:38,474 --> 00:13:41,136 [INAUDIBLE] They can be hard in single-player mode 279 00:13:41,136 --> 00:13:43,920 because they don't, for example, they 280 00:13:43,920 --> 00:13:46,010 don't need to remake the investments up. 281 00:13:46,010 --> 00:13:48,091 So a lot of people are frustrated when they lose. 282 00:13:48,091 --> 00:13:51,280 But they explore that realm more readily. 283 00:13:51,280 --> 00:13:57,790 JESPER JUUL: I do think it's also a kind of nostalgia 284 00:13:57,790 --> 00:13:59,936 for an earlier time. 285 00:13:59,936 --> 00:14:01,353 And I do think that it's also part 286 00:14:01,353 --> 00:14:02,700 of the question of difficulties. 287 00:14:02,700 --> 00:14:06,560 So it's a part of it in the sense that all of the edges 288 00:14:06,560 --> 00:14:09,490 are being removed, or the challenge 289 00:14:09,490 --> 00:14:12,190 is being removed from big game productions 290 00:14:12,190 --> 00:14:13,670 to please everybody. 291 00:14:13,670 --> 00:14:15,610 If you make an indie game, you can 292 00:14:15,610 --> 00:14:19,060 make something that's more harder, more focused, 293 00:14:19,060 --> 00:14:21,335 and have things like extreme difficulty. 294 00:14:21,335 --> 00:14:25,019 I think that's certainly an argument that people make. 295 00:14:25,019 --> 00:14:26,560 AUDIENCE: Actually I have a question. 296 00:14:26,560 --> 00:14:28,752 Does anybody remember the phrase, Nintendo hard? 297 00:14:28,752 --> 00:14:29,849 AUDIENCE: Yeah. 298 00:14:29,849 --> 00:14:32,265 AUDIENCE: OK, because that's not what Nintendo is anymore, 299 00:14:32,265 --> 00:14:33,191 right? 300 00:14:33,191 --> 00:14:35,610 AUDIENCE: Not really. 301 00:14:35,610 --> 00:14:38,460 But on the flip-side to that coin, 302 00:14:38,460 --> 00:14:41,404 aren't you sort of breaking the number one design 303 00:14:41,404 --> 00:14:43,510 rule, flexibility? 304 00:14:43,510 --> 00:14:46,140 When you make games incredibly difficult such 305 00:14:46,140 --> 00:14:52,216 that you're carving out a very small niche audience 306 00:14:52,216 --> 00:14:55,460 and saying, screw you to everybody else. 307 00:14:55,460 --> 00:14:57,910 JESPER JUUL: Yeah, and so these are subjects 308 00:14:57,910 --> 00:14:59,500 we'll get to in a bit-- 309 00:14:59,500 --> 00:15:01,950 that the arts and crafts movement also 310 00:15:01,950 --> 00:15:05,200 has this political theme that it would be for everybody-- 311 00:15:05,200 --> 00:15:07,720 art by the people, for the people. 312 00:15:07,720 --> 00:15:09,880 But then the criticism is that it ended up 313 00:15:09,880 --> 00:15:13,515 making conspicuous consumption for rich people. 314 00:15:13,515 --> 00:15:18,900 And you see the same thing with the locavore food movement. 315 00:15:18,900 --> 00:15:21,000 It's usually pretty expensive actually. 316 00:15:21,000 --> 00:15:23,200 And so it's something that happens, 317 00:15:23,200 --> 00:15:28,270 that in a way you cannot have these ideals of broadening 318 00:15:28,270 --> 00:15:30,380 things, this kind of production. 319 00:15:30,380 --> 00:15:34,847 But often it also [INAUDIBLE] flip-side 320 00:15:34,847 --> 00:15:36,430 of actually narrowing it and making it 321 00:15:36,430 --> 00:15:44,032 an elite object for [INAUDIBLE] 322 00:15:44,032 --> 00:15:45,490 One thing I thought was interesting 323 00:15:45,490 --> 00:15:49,280 was anything common in the way-- 324 00:15:49,280 --> 00:15:52,860 just talking about the visual style in independent games. 325 00:15:52,860 --> 00:15:55,310 And he had three games that we often 326 00:15:55,310 --> 00:15:58,970 talk of as being independent, and [INAUDIBLE], which 327 00:15:58,970 --> 00:16:02,060 has a pixelated or large pixel style 328 00:16:02,060 --> 00:16:05,020 and yet it moves this torn paper and crayons [INAUDIBLE]. 329 00:16:05,020 --> 00:16:09,040 Obviously, children's drawings with crayons. 330 00:16:09,040 --> 00:16:13,660 And so on one hand these are different graphical styles. 331 00:16:13,660 --> 00:16:15,280 But actually, you can see what they 332 00:16:15,280 --> 00:16:19,600 do have in common is what you can call a double layer. 333 00:16:19,600 --> 00:16:22,150 It's a representation of a representation. 334 00:16:22,150 --> 00:16:29,750 So the [INAUDIBLE] represents 1980s size pixels which 335 00:16:29,750 --> 00:16:31,350 then represent a game world. 336 00:16:31,350 --> 00:16:33,380 And yet it moves with the sense paper which 337 00:16:33,380 --> 00:16:35,030 then represents a game world. 338 00:16:35,030 --> 00:16:36,870 [INAUDIBLE] the sense experience which 339 00:16:36,870 --> 00:16:38,790 then represents a game world. 340 00:16:38,790 --> 00:16:44,200 And compare this to a modern Triple-A game. 341 00:16:44,200 --> 00:16:46,150 You don't really have that. 342 00:16:46,150 --> 00:16:49,490 You have 3D graphics within the game world. 343 00:16:49,490 --> 00:16:51,210 So when can say that-- 344 00:16:51,210 --> 00:16:53,380 I think that's pretty common. 345 00:16:53,380 --> 00:16:55,410 And I think without a representation 346 00:16:55,410 --> 00:16:57,490 of independent game-- 347 00:16:57,490 --> 00:16:59,510 I think when we usually see a game 348 00:16:59,510 --> 00:17:02,200 and recognize it as being an independent game, 349 00:17:02,200 --> 00:17:05,380 it's often because you have this type of style-- 350 00:17:05,380 --> 00:17:07,970 a representation of a representation. 351 00:17:07,970 --> 00:17:10,400 And often we'll have to use something 352 00:17:10,400 --> 00:17:12,319 from contemporary technology, obviously. 353 00:17:12,319 --> 00:17:15,099 But you said, to emulate something that's 354 00:17:15,099 --> 00:17:17,589 low-tech and cheap, right? 355 00:17:17,589 --> 00:17:20,920 So you can see that-- 356 00:17:20,920 --> 00:17:24,460 you can compare this to some casual games 357 00:17:24,460 --> 00:17:29,830 like matching games which might signal jewels 358 00:17:29,830 --> 00:17:31,890 or diamonds or something. 359 00:17:31,890 --> 00:17:34,630 I think it's very clear that most independent games tend 360 00:17:34,630 --> 00:17:40,935 to emulate very cheap materials like torn paper and things 361 00:17:40,935 --> 00:17:43,880 like that. 362 00:17:43,880 --> 00:17:45,490 I think also the reason why people 363 00:17:45,490 --> 00:17:47,912 do this is that, in a way, what you've done 364 00:17:47,912 --> 00:17:52,090 is that you're signaling that we have made a deliberate 365 00:17:52,090 --> 00:17:56,230 choice to have this style. 366 00:17:56,230 --> 00:17:59,800 And we have deliberately chosen to make 367 00:17:59,800 --> 00:18:01,240 a game on a small budget. 368 00:18:01,240 --> 00:18:02,770 So I think this is [INAUDIBLE] but I 369 00:18:02,770 --> 00:18:05,330 think that's what this kind of style signals. 370 00:18:05,330 --> 00:18:06,940 And it's also signalling this thing 371 00:18:06,940 --> 00:18:09,315 of [INAUDIBLE] authenticity, or knowing 372 00:18:09,315 --> 00:18:13,510 who made the game, or transparency in the production 373 00:18:13,510 --> 00:18:15,520 process. 374 00:18:15,520 --> 00:18:18,480 And so you can think of it like this, 375 00:18:18,480 --> 00:18:20,500 that indie is using this [INAUDIBLE] 376 00:18:20,500 --> 00:18:22,660 to mean two different things. 377 00:18:22,660 --> 00:18:27,440 Indie, on paper, means a financially independent team. 378 00:18:27,440 --> 00:18:30,190 Then I think that's also [INAUDIBLE] that people talked 379 00:18:30,190 --> 00:18:32,495 about indie from the game-development community-- 380 00:18:32,495 --> 00:18:35,060 talked about it in a way that it was morally and politically 381 00:18:35,060 --> 00:18:36,690 and aesthetically better. 382 00:18:36,690 --> 00:18:40,630 Not just better games but also better for everybody 383 00:18:40,630 --> 00:18:43,240 when games are made this way because you can communicate 384 00:18:43,240 --> 00:18:45,170 values and ideals, and so on. 385 00:18:45,170 --> 00:18:48,220 And that indie has a particular kind of style. 386 00:18:48,220 --> 00:18:50,170 And I think that this kind of style 387 00:18:50,170 --> 00:18:52,040 of having these kind of representation 388 00:18:52,040 --> 00:18:56,909 of a representation, is one that people use to signal, 389 00:18:56,909 --> 00:18:58,700 now we are making a game with a small team. 390 00:18:58,700 --> 00:19:02,060 And it has this positive value of being authentic 391 00:19:02,060 --> 00:19:04,570 and something that we can figure out 392 00:19:04,570 --> 00:19:08,420 what's going on on who made it. 393 00:19:08,420 --> 00:19:12,050 I'll just show quickly how that kind of style appeared. 394 00:19:12,050 --> 00:19:14,960 So this is looking at the-- 395 00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:17,500 do you know Independent Game Festival? 396 00:19:17,500 --> 00:19:19,269 Did you follow this? 397 00:19:19,269 --> 00:19:20,102 So that's all right. 398 00:19:20,102 --> 00:19:23,770 So anyway, this is a game dealers conference every year 399 00:19:23,770 --> 00:19:24,415 since 2000. 400 00:19:24,415 --> 00:19:26,410 There's been Independent Games Festival. 401 00:19:26,410 --> 00:19:31,060 And this is the longest running festival of independent games. 402 00:19:31,060 --> 00:19:34,850 And this is a jury-based competition. 403 00:19:34,850 --> 00:19:36,920 And so one of the things that's interesting 404 00:19:36,920 --> 00:19:40,840 is looking at the winners of the grand prize in this Independent 405 00:19:40,840 --> 00:19:42,024 Games Festival. 406 00:19:42,024 --> 00:19:43,690 And one of the things that's kind of odd 407 00:19:43,690 --> 00:19:48,010 is that if you look at the first five years, none of the games 408 00:19:48,010 --> 00:19:52,290 actually signal independent very well in a contemporary way. 409 00:19:52,290 --> 00:19:54,730 So you can see that the three of them 410 00:19:54,730 --> 00:19:59,220 are somewhat regular games of armed conflict. 411 00:19:59,220 --> 00:20:04,760 And then Wild Earth is a Pokemon snap-style game. 412 00:20:04,760 --> 00:20:10,513 The Bad Milk is this weird, never released associational 413 00:20:10,513 --> 00:20:11,189 CD-ROM. 414 00:20:11,189 --> 00:20:13,730 You click on things, and then other things appear, and so on. 415 00:20:13,730 --> 00:20:16,760 It never came out. 416 00:20:16,760 --> 00:20:22,210 But you can see that this feels like it's 417 00:20:22,210 --> 00:20:23,360 from a different time. 418 00:20:23,360 --> 00:20:26,960 If you see the picture of the two top games, 419 00:20:26,960 --> 00:20:30,044 there's nothing that signals independent game 420 00:20:30,044 --> 00:20:33,320 in a modern sense. 421 00:20:33,320 --> 00:20:37,060 And I think part of this is because at this time 422 00:20:37,060 --> 00:20:40,340 online distribution just wasn't that big a deal. 423 00:20:40,340 --> 00:20:44,200 And so when people submitted to the festival what they did 424 00:20:44,200 --> 00:20:46,464 was sometimes probably just they hoped 425 00:20:46,464 --> 00:20:48,255 that they would get noticed by a publisher. 426 00:20:48,255 --> 00:20:49,600 Who would then fund them, so they 427 00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:52,016 could make a very big version of the game which could them 428 00:20:52,016 --> 00:20:54,510 be shipped on a disc. 429 00:20:54,510 --> 00:20:57,870 And then we see that from 2005 on, 430 00:20:57,870 --> 00:21:00,649 the winners of this festival gradually became 431 00:21:00,649 --> 00:21:02,190 more of this style I'm talking about. 432 00:21:02,190 --> 00:21:06,000 You see the paradigmatic 2-D platform 433 00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:07,260 with some kind of twist. 434 00:21:07,260 --> 00:21:10,460 [INAUDIBLE] Then with the winner we 435 00:21:10,460 --> 00:21:16,260 see a low-poly style that I think 436 00:21:16,260 --> 00:21:18,600 refers to a movie like Tron. 437 00:21:18,600 --> 00:21:23,360 And then we see various takes on water colors and the hand 438 00:21:23,360 --> 00:21:25,680 drawing graphics. 439 00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:28,980 And you see, this actually coincides with the gradual rise 440 00:21:28,980 --> 00:21:30,780 of digital distribution. 441 00:21:30,780 --> 00:21:34,160 So first there's things like downloadable casual games, 442 00:21:34,160 --> 00:21:37,670 that it becomes possible-- or those Flash games sites. 443 00:21:37,670 --> 00:21:39,270 It was more possible to distribute 444 00:21:39,270 --> 00:21:42,090 a game without having to put it in a box. 445 00:21:45,600 --> 00:21:49,410 More recently then we see, we still have this pixel style. 446 00:21:49,410 --> 00:21:51,990 But then that gets merged with different things, 447 00:21:51,990 --> 00:21:55,285 like in a game like Monaco it has these various lighting 448 00:21:55,285 --> 00:21:55,785 effects. 449 00:21:55,785 --> 00:22:00,300 And then in Minecraft and [INAUDIBLE] it gets moved 450 00:22:00,300 --> 00:22:04,740 into a third dimension-- so not that-- 451 00:22:04,740 --> 00:22:08,830 and this is what I call counterfactual nostalgia-- 452 00:22:08,830 --> 00:22:12,270 in a way it's pixelated as if there 453 00:22:12,270 --> 00:22:14,580 was a time in the 1980s when people 454 00:22:14,580 --> 00:22:17,160 would make [INAUDIBLE] games with big pixels. 455 00:22:17,160 --> 00:22:18,590 This never happened obviously. 456 00:22:18,590 --> 00:22:25,200 But we have this Steampunk anachronism about it. 457 00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:28,670 But still, you can see, it signals that this 458 00:22:28,670 --> 00:22:30,600 is a particular game-- 459 00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:33,770 or a particular style and then they used modern effects on it. 460 00:22:33,770 --> 00:22:39,410 In the last two years you have this flat mostly gray-scale 461 00:22:39,410 --> 00:22:40,516 pixels [INAUDIBLE] now. 462 00:22:40,516 --> 00:22:41,890 But then there are certain things 463 00:22:41,890 --> 00:22:44,560 that seem to be happening in the game play where half 464 00:22:44,560 --> 00:22:48,140 [INAUDIBLE] to me the life of a poor [INAUDIBLE] 465 00:22:48,140 --> 00:22:56,900 and pay the police simulates being an immigration officer. 466 00:22:56,900 --> 00:22:59,420 And so I think it goes to [INAUDIBLE] people 467 00:22:59,420 --> 00:23:01,510 talk about the moral current. 468 00:23:01,510 --> 00:23:04,710 Like there is a lot of discussion about participation, 469 00:23:04,710 --> 00:23:07,220 in various ways, in games and certainly 470 00:23:07,220 --> 00:23:10,310 a lot of emphasis on trying to make games 471 00:23:10,310 --> 00:23:13,640 with more serious themes so they'll cover a broader 472 00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:17,174 range of themes. 473 00:23:17,174 --> 00:23:20,160 And so you see-- 474 00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:22,650 so this shows you where this kind of style 475 00:23:22,650 --> 00:23:25,370 comes from-- the representation of the representation. 476 00:23:25,370 --> 00:23:29,070 You'll also see that basically every single winner since 2005 477 00:23:29,070 --> 00:23:32,591 of this festival has had this representation 478 00:23:32,591 --> 00:23:35,180 of representation. 479 00:23:35,180 --> 00:23:38,060 All right. 480 00:23:38,060 --> 00:23:39,020 What does it mean? 481 00:23:39,020 --> 00:23:42,800 Well, I think there are a few contradictions 482 00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:44,130 in independent games. 483 00:23:44,130 --> 00:23:47,580 So one of them has to do with what we call the DIY movement. 484 00:23:47,580 --> 00:23:50,490 It's that anybody can make a video game now 485 00:23:50,490 --> 00:23:52,160 with independent games-- 486 00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:53,970 versus the idea of independent games 487 00:23:53,970 --> 00:23:58,940 as being a way for people to do games that are particularly 488 00:23:58,940 --> 00:24:00,740 expertly crafted. 489 00:24:00,740 --> 00:24:04,930 So some of those like Terry Cavanagh-- 490 00:24:04,930 --> 00:24:07,160 he talked about how it's easy for him 491 00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:10,460 to make a game with this pixel style 492 00:24:10,460 --> 00:24:12,336 because he doesn't consider himself 493 00:24:12,336 --> 00:24:15,290 that great a graphic artist. 494 00:24:15,290 --> 00:24:19,010 And so this pixel style is easy for him to do-- 495 00:24:19,010 --> 00:24:21,410 to make in a convincing way. 496 00:24:21,410 --> 00:24:24,080 On the other hand, if you want to make a game 497 00:24:24,080 --> 00:24:27,790 like that in a tool like Unity 3d. 498 00:24:27,790 --> 00:24:31,270 But people at Unity 3d really doesn't want you to do that. 499 00:24:31,270 --> 00:24:35,165 So the people at Unity 3d will do a serious filtering thing 500 00:24:35,165 --> 00:24:39,350 on your texture so if you just draw something with big pixels 501 00:24:39,350 --> 00:24:42,310 it will be very blurry, like the image on the left. 502 00:24:42,310 --> 00:24:44,960 So you have to do various things of changing 503 00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:47,330 the settings in the rendering of Unity 3d 504 00:24:47,330 --> 00:24:49,580 to actually do pixel style. 505 00:24:49,580 --> 00:24:53,420 That's not really what the tool is meant for doing anyway. 506 00:24:53,420 --> 00:24:58,430 So this develops the possibility of demonstrating 507 00:24:58,430 --> 00:25:02,000 technical expertise, by working against the intentions 508 00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:03,200 of the tool. 509 00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:05,840 And that is a kind of feature. 510 00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:10,110 And so I think certainly that's the conflict 511 00:25:10,110 --> 00:25:12,706 within independent games-- between making 512 00:25:12,706 --> 00:25:17,210 independent games being these very small games in which you 513 00:25:17,210 --> 00:25:20,270 develop and have the opportunity to show off how great they are 514 00:25:20,270 --> 00:25:24,890 at various technical skills in a delicate and very small system. 515 00:25:24,890 --> 00:25:27,460 Versus independent games as being something 516 00:25:27,460 --> 00:25:31,130 where it's open to everybody. 517 00:25:31,130 --> 00:25:34,130 So you can take a designer like Anna Anthropy, 518 00:25:34,130 --> 00:25:38,080 who wrote a book called Rise of the Videogame Zinesters-- 519 00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:41,220 How Freaks, Normals, Amateurs, Artists, Dreamers, Drop-Outs, 520 00:25:41,220 --> 00:25:43,630 Queers, Housewives and People Like You 521 00:25:43,630 --> 00:25:45,185 Are Taking Back an Art Form. 522 00:25:45,185 --> 00:25:50,260 So it's about making game development more democratic. 523 00:25:50,260 --> 00:25:53,740 And at the same time, when you see Anna Anthropy's games, 524 00:25:53,740 --> 00:25:56,136 she's actually a very, very good designer. 525 00:25:56,136 --> 00:25:58,539 So she makes these kind of games that 526 00:25:58,539 --> 00:26:00,330 are very-- she's good at combining elements 527 00:26:00,330 --> 00:26:05,730 from game history and to use them in a new way. 528 00:26:05,730 --> 00:26:08,465 The second element-- second contradiction I think 529 00:26:08,465 --> 00:26:10,900 is more on the use end. 530 00:26:10,900 --> 00:26:16,100 That, on one hand the idea of independent games 531 00:26:16,100 --> 00:26:20,430 tends to have this idea of democratization. 532 00:26:20,430 --> 00:26:23,670 It becomes games by the people for people. 533 00:26:23,670 --> 00:26:29,100 On the other hand, I think also that now that it's so common 534 00:26:29,100 --> 00:26:31,980 to play video games-- and more than 50% of the population 535 00:26:31,980 --> 00:26:35,160 actually plays video games on a regular basis-- 536 00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:37,800 then I think to some extent indie games can 537 00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:40,960 be this way of showing that you have a more sophisticated taste 538 00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:43,860 than the great masses, right? 539 00:26:43,860 --> 00:26:49,160 That if everybody played Candy Crush, 540 00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:52,320 then you can show that you are playing some obscure game 541 00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:56,130 from the Humble Bundle that regular people don't really 542 00:26:56,130 --> 00:26:56,760 under-- 543 00:26:56,760 --> 00:26:58,400 have learned to appreciate. 544 00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:04,310 Then it becomes more this kind of fine wine tasting issue. 545 00:27:04,310 --> 00:27:12,120 So I think that certainly you have break-out indie games 546 00:27:12,120 --> 00:27:14,720 like Minecraft, obviously. 547 00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:17,690 Which of course is a very, very broad hit 548 00:27:17,690 --> 00:27:20,430 across a lot of countries. 549 00:27:20,430 --> 00:27:22,370 It sold, what, 50 million copies? 550 00:27:22,370 --> 00:27:24,470 AUDIENCE: Yeah, mind-blowingly large. 551 00:27:24,470 --> 00:27:26,968 JESPER JUUL: Mind-blowingly large. 552 00:27:26,968 --> 00:27:30,220 And then of course still the developer, [INAUDIBLE] 553 00:27:30,220 --> 00:27:35,204 He still has this scruffy look to him. 554 00:27:35,204 --> 00:27:36,870 So [INAUDIBLE] they said he had stylists 555 00:27:36,870 --> 00:27:42,280 to make him scruffy so he keeps his indie credibility. 556 00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:45,480 AUDIENCE: He's [INAUDIBLE] 557 00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:50,470 JESPER JUUL: Yeah, but you can see this a ongoing conflict 558 00:27:50,470 --> 00:27:53,350 within independent games-- whether this was something 559 00:27:53,350 --> 00:27:55,060 that's supposed to be very broad, 560 00:27:55,060 --> 00:27:57,927 or whether it is a connoisseur thing. 561 00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:07,440 And I should say, I do think that you can actually see this 562 00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:09,485 as a result of the fact that so many people are 563 00:28:09,485 --> 00:28:10,318 playing video games. 564 00:28:10,318 --> 00:28:12,620 So it used to be that you could say, the fact 565 00:28:12,620 --> 00:28:15,120 that you play video games made you 566 00:28:15,120 --> 00:28:17,640 belong to a particular category of people. 567 00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:19,590 But now that video game playing is 568 00:28:19,590 --> 00:28:21,575 so common you need to-- people need 569 00:28:21,575 --> 00:28:24,270 to select a certain subset of video games 570 00:28:24,270 --> 00:28:27,560 to have an identity as video game players. 571 00:28:27,560 --> 00:28:30,400 And I think that indie games can be seen as a kind of response 572 00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:30,900 to that. 573 00:28:30,900 --> 00:28:34,410 It's something-- it allows you to feel that you 574 00:28:34,410 --> 00:28:36,800 have a particular place, right? 575 00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:46,220 So according to authenticity and the [INAUDIBLE] Richard 576 00:28:46,220 --> 00:28:49,190 Peterson talked about the idea of the authentic-- 577 00:28:49,190 --> 00:28:52,670 [INAUDIBLE] So one of the things he studied is country music. 578 00:28:52,670 --> 00:28:57,060 And he looks at how different people argue 579 00:28:57,060 --> 00:28:59,300 for various types of country music 580 00:28:59,300 --> 00:29:01,665 as being authentic in different ways. 581 00:29:01,665 --> 00:29:05,085 So it can be authentic in terms of who recorded it, 582 00:29:05,085 --> 00:29:09,810 or in terms of style, or various things like that. 583 00:29:09,810 --> 00:29:12,110 And so he says that authenticity works 584 00:29:12,110 --> 00:29:15,450 when people try to put in effort in order to make something 585 00:29:15,450 --> 00:29:16,225 appear authentic. 586 00:29:16,225 --> 00:29:19,290 So it's just like the restaurant that they 587 00:29:19,290 --> 00:29:23,430 spend energy listing all of the places 588 00:29:23,430 --> 00:29:26,390 from where they got their ingredients to make 589 00:29:26,390 --> 00:29:29,195 the whole menu appear more authentic and local. 590 00:29:32,410 --> 00:29:33,790 A kind of critical-- 591 00:29:33,790 --> 00:29:35,750 this particular kind of critical argument 592 00:29:35,750 --> 00:29:38,970 against the thing that you like is, 593 00:29:38,970 --> 00:29:40,860 to be experienced as authentic, something 594 00:29:40,860 --> 00:29:42,030 must be marked as authentic. 595 00:29:42,030 --> 00:29:44,370 And this makes it authentic-- inauthentic 596 00:29:44,370 --> 00:29:47,220 rather because something has been done deliberately. 597 00:29:47,220 --> 00:29:50,130 And you can certainly see all kinds of products, 598 00:29:50,130 --> 00:29:52,590 obviously, where you can see there's 599 00:29:52,590 --> 00:29:54,015 some kind of advertising agent. 600 00:29:54,015 --> 00:29:58,170 He has spent a large amount of time trying to figure out 601 00:29:58,170 --> 00:30:00,350 how to make that particular thing look 602 00:30:00,350 --> 00:30:03,360 authentic-- by choosing the right [INAUDIBLE] or colors, 603 00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:06,840 or making it appear like an old country store 604 00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:09,090 even though it's a big multi-billion dollar 605 00:30:09,090 --> 00:30:11,250 corporation. 606 00:30:11,250 --> 00:30:14,690 And so you could see this as-- 607 00:30:14,690 --> 00:30:16,350 you can think of-- 608 00:30:16,350 --> 00:30:19,370 this would be a critical idea of-- 609 00:30:19,370 --> 00:30:21,480 this would be a critical think you can 610 00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:22,680 say about independent games. 611 00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:24,138 But of course you don't necessarily 612 00:30:24,138 --> 00:30:27,480 have to make games with this particular style, right? 613 00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:29,950 And then test it in ways that something 614 00:30:29,950 --> 00:30:32,720 inauthentic about choosing a kind of style 615 00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:35,360 to seem authentic. 616 00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:39,250 And so I think it's also a bit more complicated like that, 617 00:30:39,250 --> 00:30:41,890 right, because, in a way, just the fact 618 00:30:41,890 --> 00:30:43,790 that it's possible to make a game 619 00:30:43,790 --> 00:30:46,730 and choose a particular style. 620 00:30:46,730 --> 00:30:49,515 That style is so interesting because it's actually 621 00:30:49,515 --> 00:30:51,760 cheap-- it is fairly cheap to make games 622 00:30:51,760 --> 00:30:55,720 with large pixel or scanned paper, or things like that. 623 00:30:55,720 --> 00:30:59,370 So even though you could say it's not-- 624 00:30:59,370 --> 00:31:03,040 it's something that people deliberately choose. 625 00:31:03,040 --> 00:31:05,405 And so it's not authentic in that sense, 626 00:31:05,405 --> 00:31:08,490 but it's still something that enables game development. 627 00:31:08,490 --> 00:31:10,420 It does solve that particular problem 628 00:31:10,420 --> 00:31:13,010 of how do you make a game on a small budget 629 00:31:13,010 --> 00:31:16,780 and make it appear as a deliberate choice, rather 630 00:31:16,780 --> 00:31:19,415 than just a game with too small a budget. 631 00:31:19,415 --> 00:31:21,960 So you can see that this is what that particular style does. 632 00:31:26,340 --> 00:31:28,120 I should say there are a few games that we 633 00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:30,453 tend to talk of as independent which doesn't necessarily 634 00:31:30,453 --> 00:31:32,820 match this style. 635 00:31:32,820 --> 00:31:36,674 So [INAUDIBLE] is a particularly interesting case 636 00:31:36,674 --> 00:31:38,340 because it does have this representation 637 00:31:38,340 --> 00:31:41,120 of a representation style. 638 00:31:41,120 --> 00:31:43,260 It's made to look at the painting. 639 00:31:43,260 --> 00:31:45,890 So in a particular way, it's not meant 640 00:31:45,890 --> 00:31:50,714 to look as somebody tried to off-hand improvise 641 00:31:50,714 --> 00:31:51,630 a painting or drawing. 642 00:31:51,630 --> 00:31:55,610 It's actually meant to look a bit like fine art. 643 00:31:55,610 --> 00:31:57,160 And so, you see, it-- in a way it 644 00:31:57,160 --> 00:31:58,930 has this thing of being a representation 645 00:31:58,930 --> 00:31:59,950 of a representation. 646 00:31:59,950 --> 00:32:03,300 But here it's actually supposed to signal this having fine 647 00:32:03,300 --> 00:32:06,160 and nice or sophisticated. 648 00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:10,210 And there is-- and I think this [INAUDIBLE]. 649 00:32:10,210 --> 00:32:11,702 You guys play [INAUDIBLE]? 650 00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:17,590 So [INAUDIBLE] is meant to be a kind of work 651 00:32:17,590 --> 00:32:20,470 of art with a capital A. And I do 652 00:32:20,470 --> 00:32:23,790 think this is why that particular style was chosen. 653 00:32:23,790 --> 00:32:25,650 I think it's a bit simplistic