1 00:00:00,090 --> 00:00:02,490 The following content is provided under a Creative 2 00:00:02,490 --> 00:00:04,030 Commons license. 3 00:00:04,030 --> 00:00:06,330 Your support will help MIT OpenCourseWare 4 00:00:06,330 --> 00:00:10,690 continue to offer high quality educational resources for free. 5 00:00:10,690 --> 00:00:13,320 To make a donation or view additional materials 6 00:00:13,320 --> 00:00:17,280 from hundreds of MIT courses, visit MIT OpenCourseWare 7 00:00:17,280 --> 00:00:20,580 at ocw.mit.edu. 8 00:00:20,580 --> 00:00:25,030 PROFESSOR: So today's reading is kind of there for two reasons. 9 00:00:25,030 --> 00:00:27,600 One, the David Parlett reading is 10 00:00:27,600 --> 00:00:30,436 to introduce to you this book which is called 11 00:00:30,436 --> 00:00:31,560 The History Of Board Games. 12 00:00:31,560 --> 00:00:36,190 How many of you read the version from Stellar OK. 13 00:00:36,190 --> 00:00:38,086 Anyone get the book from the library? 14 00:00:38,086 --> 00:00:39,960 Because I think it's on reserve if you really 15 00:00:39,960 --> 00:00:44,820 want to read a hardback, paper book, 16 00:00:44,820 --> 00:00:46,560 you could just go to a library and you 17 00:00:46,560 --> 00:00:48,226 should be able to check it out, probably 18 00:00:48,226 --> 00:00:49,440 from the humanities library. 19 00:00:49,440 --> 00:00:54,210 So I'm just letting you know that that option is out there. 20 00:00:54,210 --> 00:00:56,130 So one of the reasons is; one, just 21 00:00:56,130 --> 00:01:01,020 to introduce to you a bit of what historical research looks 22 00:01:01,020 --> 00:01:04,103 like in game studies. 23 00:01:04,103 --> 00:01:05,519 There are people who have careers, 24 00:01:05,519 --> 00:01:08,670 like David Parlett, who basically 25 00:01:08,670 --> 00:01:12,900 go deep into the history of how some kind of game evolved. 26 00:01:12,900 --> 00:01:15,950 One of our old alums, Jason Begy? 27 00:01:15,950 --> 00:01:17,640 He looks at railroad games. 28 00:01:17,640 --> 00:01:19,970 I'm pretty sure he hasn't changed his thesis topic yet? 29 00:01:19,970 --> 00:01:24,610 Again, he's been looking at that for like three years, four ? 30 00:01:24,610 --> 00:01:25,235 AUDIENCE: Yeah. 31 00:01:25,235 --> 00:01:26,530 Three years now. 32 00:01:26,530 --> 00:01:30,710 PROFESSOR: And so they'll go to museums. 33 00:01:30,710 --> 00:01:32,936 They'll talk to archaeologists. 34 00:01:32,936 --> 00:01:34,894 In the case of railroad games, obviously, there 35 00:01:34,894 --> 00:01:36,900 are no archaeologists involved. 36 00:01:36,900 --> 00:01:43,340 But you talk to people who worked on classic game designs. 37 00:01:43,340 --> 00:01:44,539 You talk to retailers. 38 00:01:44,539 --> 00:01:46,080 You talk to people who actually owned 39 00:01:46,080 --> 00:01:47,860 or played some of these games. 40 00:01:47,860 --> 00:01:51,990 And I'm wondering if a lot of the games that are written 41 00:01:51,990 --> 00:01:56,575 in today's reading were kind of ancient-- really, 42 00:01:56,575 --> 00:01:57,550 really ancient-- 43 00:01:57,550 --> 00:01:58,050 games. 44 00:01:58,050 --> 00:01:59,924 But how many of you feel like you've actually 45 00:01:59,924 --> 00:02:02,220 played a game that sounded like one 46 00:02:02,220 --> 00:02:05,434 of those that were written up? 47 00:02:05,434 --> 00:02:07,600 AUDIENCE: Well especially they had dreidel in there. 48 00:02:07,600 --> 00:02:10,289 PROFESSOR: Yeah, they had the dreidel in there. 49 00:02:10,289 --> 00:02:15,290 And that's Purim and Hanukkah? 50 00:02:15,290 --> 00:02:16,581 Those are the two-- 51 00:02:16,581 --> 00:02:17,580 AUDIENCE: Just Hanukkah. 52 00:02:17,580 --> 00:02:20,220 PROFESSOR: That was pretty much just Hanukkah. 53 00:02:20,220 --> 00:02:22,489 OK. 54 00:02:22,489 --> 00:02:24,780 It's funny because when I was reading about the dreidel 55 00:02:24,780 --> 00:02:27,770 I was actually; like the initials-- 56 00:02:27,770 --> 00:02:29,455 a great miracle happened there-- 57 00:02:29,455 --> 00:02:31,580 I didn't realize that there was a different version 58 00:02:31,580 --> 00:02:33,430 if you played dreidel in Jerusalem, where 59 00:02:33,430 --> 00:02:36,000 a great thing happened there. 60 00:02:36,000 --> 00:02:38,730 Which makes sense for Hanukkah but I don't think-- 61 00:02:38,730 --> 00:02:41,496 that doesn't quite make sense for Purim because-- 62 00:02:41,496 --> 00:02:42,870 AUDIENCE: No, it's only Hanukkah. 63 00:02:42,870 --> 00:02:46,500 PROFESSOR: That's just to do with Jerusalem. 64 00:02:46,500 --> 00:02:48,120 All right what else? 65 00:02:48,120 --> 00:02:52,110 The other games, the State Board games or-- a lot 66 00:02:52,110 --> 00:02:58,080 of these games border on someone setting up shop on the street 67 00:02:58,080 --> 00:03:00,883 and then if the cops come they run away, 68 00:03:00,883 --> 00:03:02,341 one of those kinds of games, right? 69 00:03:05,730 --> 00:03:09,090 Let's see, what were some of the other things? 70 00:03:09,090 --> 00:03:11,280 They had a lot of lots. 71 00:03:11,280 --> 00:03:15,420 And one of the traditional Roman implements 72 00:03:15,420 --> 00:03:16,983 was the knuckle bone. 73 00:03:16,983 --> 00:03:19,990 I'm not quite sure if they mention what type of animal 74 00:03:19,990 --> 00:03:20,490 it was? 75 00:03:20,490 --> 00:03:21,031 I think was-- 76 00:03:21,031 --> 00:03:21,714 AUDIENCE: Sheep. 77 00:03:21,714 --> 00:03:24,170 PROFESSOR: Sheep or goat, yeah. 78 00:03:24,170 --> 00:03:27,120 But that's where the idea comes from. 79 00:03:27,120 --> 00:03:32,130 And the idea comes up quite a bit in game studies, at least 80 00:03:32,130 --> 00:03:34,500 since Holsinger's time, since I think 81 00:03:34,500 --> 00:03:39,150 the 60s, where it's introduced as a generic term 82 00:03:39,150 --> 00:03:41,340 to describe games of chance. 83 00:03:41,340 --> 00:03:44,280 I think the word earlier might also 84 00:03:44,280 --> 00:03:49,920 have been used like in traditional Latin scholarship 85 00:03:49,920 --> 00:03:52,117 to describe games of chance. 86 00:03:52,117 --> 00:03:54,116 But that's where you get phrases like alea iacta 87 00:03:54,116 --> 00:03:59,730 est. Does anyone know what that means? 88 00:03:59,730 --> 00:04:01,220 The die is cast. 89 00:04:01,220 --> 00:04:04,790 It is what Julius Caesar-- 90 00:04:04,790 --> 00:04:07,860 Julias Caesar says when he was about to cross 91 00:04:07,860 --> 00:04:09,600 the Rubicon, famously. 92 00:04:09,600 --> 00:04:14,190 And originally there was some confusion 93 00:04:14,190 --> 00:04:20,279 about whether that meant that the die, like dice, has thrown? 94 00:04:20,279 --> 00:04:23,340 Or whether that means that the die; 95 00:04:23,340 --> 00:04:29,670 as in the mold for something that you put liquid iron in, 96 00:04:29,670 --> 00:04:31,800 and then you cast it. 97 00:04:31,800 --> 00:04:36,070 But that still has the same sort of sense of, all right, It's 98 00:04:36,070 --> 00:04:37,070 out of our hands, right? 99 00:04:37,070 --> 00:04:38,028 It's already been done. 100 00:04:38,028 --> 00:04:39,720 So I get the same point across. 101 00:04:39,720 --> 00:04:42,060 But actually look at Latin, specifically 102 00:04:42,060 --> 00:04:44,540 talking about these knuckle bones. 103 00:04:44,540 --> 00:04:48,650 These knuckle bones that you are throwing which are called alea. 104 00:04:48,650 --> 00:04:52,660 So now it's up to date. 105 00:04:52,660 --> 00:04:55,200 But Parlett makes an interesting point 106 00:04:55,200 --> 00:05:05,630 that we are trying to simulate something that seems realistic. 107 00:05:05,630 --> 00:05:08,780 That even with your best efforts or with your worst efforts, 108 00:05:08,780 --> 00:05:12,980 sometimes certain things are out of your control. 109 00:05:12,980 --> 00:05:17,520 And simply just describing them as games of chance 110 00:05:17,520 --> 00:05:19,070 might be doing them a disservice. 111 00:05:19,070 --> 00:05:21,670 Because you see the same sort of randomization 112 00:05:21,670 --> 00:05:25,370 that comes up in computer games and things like combat. 113 00:05:25,370 --> 00:05:28,100 Especially strategy games, where there's a chance 114 00:05:28,100 --> 00:05:30,680 that something may fail, a chance that something 115 00:05:30,680 --> 00:05:32,690 may succeed. 116 00:05:32,690 --> 00:05:35,390 And when you think about games like war games simulations, 117 00:05:35,390 --> 00:05:39,150 they are obviously not trying to create this fantastic 118 00:05:39,150 --> 00:05:41,700 sort of fantasy element, unless you are talking about things 119 00:05:41,700 --> 00:05:44,990 like RPG fire games. 120 00:05:44,990 --> 00:05:47,490 But we're talking about World War II games and things 121 00:05:47,490 --> 00:05:51,170 like that, that are trying very hard to simulate something 122 00:05:51,170 --> 00:05:52,170 that's real. 123 00:05:52,170 --> 00:05:54,378 And one of the things that they're trying to simulate 124 00:05:54,378 --> 00:05:57,340 is sometimes you just don't have control over everything. 125 00:05:57,340 --> 00:05:59,750 And that's where randomisation elements-- 126 00:05:59,750 --> 00:06:03,200 this particular chapter is about dice and other physical things 127 00:06:03,200 --> 00:06:04,120 that you use. 128 00:06:04,120 --> 00:06:05,240 We included spinners. 129 00:06:05,240 --> 00:06:09,900 We included things that were basically binary. 130 00:06:09,900 --> 00:06:11,810 And that's actually a cute idea, if anybody 131 00:06:11,810 --> 00:06:15,110 wants to think about trying to introduce the Bell Curve to any 132 00:06:15,110 --> 00:06:17,940 of your results without having to be having people 133 00:06:17,940 --> 00:06:20,190 roll a whole bunch of dice. 134 00:06:20,190 --> 00:06:26,110 Or if rolling two dice gives you numbers 2 to 12, 135 00:06:26,110 --> 00:06:27,620 but you wanted a different range, 136 00:06:27,620 --> 00:06:30,530 you could just have them roll a whole bunch of flat sticks 137 00:06:30,530 --> 00:06:32,250 and then it lands one, zero, one zero, 138 00:06:32,250 --> 00:06:34,130 and you still get a nice bell curve. 139 00:06:34,130 --> 00:06:37,570 So that's an idea you can use in your game as well 140 00:06:37,570 --> 00:06:39,320 or you can use things like spinners, which 141 00:06:39,320 --> 00:06:41,690 pretty much just give you the equal chance 142 00:06:41,690 --> 00:06:44,210 no matter which side you land. 143 00:06:44,210 --> 00:06:47,140 And you can make a spinner of arbitrary complexity. 144 00:06:47,140 --> 00:06:49,370 You could make a 20-sided spinner. 145 00:06:49,370 --> 00:06:54,220 It will look basically like a circle but you could. 146 00:06:54,220 --> 00:06:59,430 So one thing that Parlett introduces 147 00:06:59,430 --> 00:07:04,340 is this idea that games of chance 148 00:07:04,340 --> 00:07:10,550 are also some of games of imperfect information. 149 00:07:10,550 --> 00:07:12,420 Games of perfect and imperfect information, 150 00:07:12,420 --> 00:07:14,520 what's the difference between the two of them? 151 00:07:14,520 --> 00:07:15,470 It's the first time we're encountering 152 00:07:15,470 --> 00:07:16,580 these terms in this class. 153 00:07:16,580 --> 00:07:18,860 But I wouldn't want to hazard a guess. 154 00:07:21,580 --> 00:07:25,114 What's an example of a game of perfect information? 155 00:07:25,114 --> 00:07:26,242 AUDIENCE: Chess. 156 00:07:26,242 --> 00:07:26,950 PROFESSOR: Chess. 157 00:07:26,950 --> 00:07:28,866 That Is a game of perfect information because? 158 00:07:28,866 --> 00:07:31,440 AUDIENCE: Because all of the information 159 00:07:31,440 --> 00:07:34,412 you are going to be using in that game 160 00:07:34,412 --> 00:07:35,970 is right there in front of you. 161 00:07:35,970 --> 00:07:36,980 PROFESSOR: Right. 162 00:07:36,980 --> 00:07:40,872 Players see all the games state, although Parlett says, 163 00:07:40,872 --> 00:07:42,610 but they don't know and one of them 164 00:07:42,610 --> 00:07:45,310 got out on the wrong side of bed that morning. 165 00:07:45,310 --> 00:07:47,800 They don't necessarily know how experienced each other is, 166 00:07:47,800 --> 00:07:50,920 and that's kind of weird is that part of the game 167 00:07:50,920 --> 00:07:52,990 was the outside of the game, right? 168 00:07:52,990 --> 00:07:55,600 And other examples of games of perfect or imperfect 169 00:07:55,600 --> 00:07:57,016 information? 170 00:07:57,016 --> 00:07:59,810 AUDIENCE: Go is imperfect information. 171 00:07:59,810 --> 00:08:01,822 PROFESSOR: Imperfect, which would-- 172 00:08:01,822 --> 00:08:03,280 AUDIENCE: Poker would be imperfect. 173 00:08:03,280 --> 00:08:05,560 PROFESSOR: Poker would be imperfect because you-- 174 00:08:05,560 --> 00:08:07,340 AUDIENCE: You don't know the deck, 175 00:08:07,340 --> 00:08:09,847 you don't know what's in your opponent's hand, 176 00:08:09,847 --> 00:08:10,540 stuff like that. 177 00:08:10,540 --> 00:08:11,915 PROFESSOR: Does poker always have 178 00:08:11,915 --> 00:08:13,990 to be played with a single deck? 179 00:08:13,990 --> 00:08:15,102 All 52 cards? 180 00:08:15,102 --> 00:08:17,156 AUDIENCE: You could even not know how many cards, 181 00:08:17,156 --> 00:08:17,760 how many decks there are. 182 00:08:17,760 --> 00:08:19,093 PROFESSOR: OK, you may not know. 183 00:08:19,093 --> 00:08:21,580 So that's a question too. 184 00:08:21,580 --> 00:08:23,010 When typically we play it at home, 185 00:08:23,010 --> 00:08:24,860 it's just one deck of cards of 52. 186 00:08:24,860 --> 00:08:27,250 You know that you're holding the King of spades. 187 00:08:27,250 --> 00:08:30,280 There's no other King of spades out there. 188 00:08:30,280 --> 00:08:33,130 But you play in some casinos, and they've 189 00:08:33,130 --> 00:08:36,345 got a five deck mix, there could be two kings in spades. 190 00:08:39,419 --> 00:08:41,485 Yeah? 191 00:08:41,485 --> 00:08:43,360 Poker is all about trying to figure out 192 00:08:43,360 --> 00:08:47,290 what other people have, and what's the chances. 193 00:08:47,290 --> 00:08:49,420 Actually, you already know what other people have, 194 00:08:49,420 --> 00:08:52,000 but it's all trying to read what's the chances that they've 195 00:08:52,000 --> 00:08:57,610 got something, plus what's the chances of your hand beating 196 00:08:57,610 --> 00:08:58,110 that? 197 00:08:58,110 --> 00:08:59,800 Because it's all the variance in poker, 198 00:08:59,800 --> 00:09:01,216 like Texas hold'em and everything, 199 00:09:01,216 --> 00:09:04,700 which have other kinds of cards that nobody gets to see, 200 00:09:04,700 --> 00:09:06,670 that everyone gets to see. 201 00:09:06,670 --> 00:09:09,480 So perfect and imperfect information 202 00:09:09,480 --> 00:09:12,130 is kind of like a sledge hammer to deal with this, 203 00:09:12,130 --> 00:09:13,970 because you're not quite sure. 204 00:09:13,970 --> 00:09:16,540 Like random numbers or random cards that you're 205 00:09:16,540 --> 00:09:18,410 drawing from the five card stack, 206 00:09:18,410 --> 00:09:20,680 or random numbers that you're rolling out of a die 207 00:09:20,680 --> 00:09:22,930 is a very, very different quality 208 00:09:22,930 --> 00:09:25,630 to that piece of information than a card 209 00:09:25,630 --> 00:09:28,630 that somebody is holding and not revealing to everybody else, 210 00:09:28,630 --> 00:09:32,110 because it that's a fixed quantity. 211 00:09:32,110 --> 00:09:34,660 It's something that was dealt in the past, 212 00:09:34,660 --> 00:09:38,994 and Parlett describes it as sort of past imperfect information. 213 00:09:38,994 --> 00:09:40,910 And then there's future imperfect information, 214 00:09:40,910 --> 00:09:43,710 you're going to roll it and then and only then 215 00:09:43,710 --> 00:09:47,090 is that information generated even though no one knew it. 216 00:09:47,090 --> 00:09:48,850 No one knows that number. 217 00:09:48,850 --> 00:09:52,120 So there's a scholar called Celia Pearce over 218 00:09:52,120 --> 00:09:55,720 in Georgia Tech, and she came up with a taxonomy 219 00:09:55,720 --> 00:09:58,870 just to help her discuss this with her design teams, 220 00:09:58,870 --> 00:10:01,100 and I thought it was really, really useful. 221 00:10:01,100 --> 00:10:04,390 So instead of saying imperfect and perfect information, 222 00:10:04,390 --> 00:10:07,050 we start off with what the obvious one, 223 00:10:07,050 --> 00:10:08,350 which is public information. 224 00:10:08,350 --> 00:10:12,479 Games of perfect information and games of-- 225 00:10:12,479 --> 00:10:14,020 all information is public, everything 226 00:10:14,020 --> 00:10:15,340 is public information. 227 00:10:15,340 --> 00:10:20,280 The state of a board in chess or in checkers, 228 00:10:20,280 --> 00:10:23,530 or probably fun computer games where this is the case as well, 229 00:10:23,530 --> 00:10:27,550 although [INAUDIBLE] computer games-- 230 00:10:27,550 --> 00:10:29,654 but nothing comes to mind-- 231 00:10:29,654 --> 00:10:31,570 a of computer games take advantage of the fact 232 00:10:31,570 --> 00:10:32,986 that everyone has their own screen 233 00:10:32,986 --> 00:10:35,140 to do imperfect information. 234 00:10:35,140 --> 00:10:39,310 So when you start jumping into the realm of imperfect 235 00:10:39,310 --> 00:10:43,910 information that's private, which 236 00:10:43,910 --> 00:10:46,670 is the stuff that one person, at least one person 237 00:10:46,670 --> 00:10:49,689 knows for sure, possibly, if you're playing a team game, 238 00:10:49,689 --> 00:10:51,980 there's more than one person who knows this information 239 00:10:51,980 --> 00:10:53,169 for sure. 240 00:10:53,169 --> 00:10:54,710 If you're playing a game like bridge, 241 00:10:54,710 --> 00:11:00,880 where you're sort of communicating, but in codes-- 242 00:11:00,880 --> 00:11:03,314 if you've been playing with someone for a long time, 243 00:11:03,314 --> 00:11:04,730 you can get to the situation where 244 00:11:04,730 --> 00:11:06,188 even though I can't see your cards, 245 00:11:06,188 --> 00:11:07,839 I pretty much know what cards you have 246 00:11:07,839 --> 00:11:09,380 because you're my teammate and you're 247 00:11:09,380 --> 00:11:12,222 trying to communicate with me in a way that I understand. 248 00:11:15,910 --> 00:11:20,180 There's random information which is stuff 249 00:11:20,180 --> 00:11:26,015 that you get from, say, drawing from the top of five 250 00:11:26,015 --> 00:11:30,530 stack deck of poker cards, or something that you 251 00:11:30,530 --> 00:11:32,540 get from rolling a die. 252 00:11:32,540 --> 00:11:34,640 Stuff that you can't really intuit, 253 00:11:34,640 --> 00:11:37,259 what Parlett calls future imperfect. 254 00:11:37,259 --> 00:11:39,800 Things that will be thought of, for all intents and purposes, 255 00:11:39,800 --> 00:11:43,680 that information introduced the moment 256 00:11:43,680 --> 00:11:47,780 you trigger that rendering-- that randomizing method. 257 00:11:47,780 --> 00:11:50,831 The moment you throw the dreidel, spin the dreidel, 258 00:11:50,831 --> 00:11:51,815 roll the dreidel? 259 00:11:51,815 --> 00:11:53,190 It spins, OK. 260 00:11:53,190 --> 00:11:55,490 The moment you throw the knucklebones, whatever it is, 261 00:11:55,490 --> 00:11:58,480 that's the moment when the information gets generated. 262 00:11:58,480 --> 00:12:01,520 There may be some probability in how 263 00:12:01,520 --> 00:12:03,020 you expect this to work out. 264 00:12:03,020 --> 00:12:04,700 Like if you're rolling two dice, you 265 00:12:04,700 --> 00:12:07,030 expect number 7 to be the most likely outcome, 266 00:12:07,030 --> 00:12:11,312 and number 2 and number 12 could be the least likely outcomes. 267 00:12:11,312 --> 00:12:12,770 But that information doesn't really 268 00:12:12,770 --> 00:12:15,330 exist until the moment it's generated. 269 00:12:18,960 --> 00:12:19,760 So what's missing? 270 00:12:27,098 --> 00:12:33,195 AUDIENCE: There's information that's computable out there, 271 00:12:33,195 --> 00:12:35,042 so, for instance, when you're playing 272 00:12:35,042 --> 00:12:36,630 cards or something like that. 273 00:12:36,630 --> 00:12:38,870 I know technically that the rules 274 00:12:38,870 --> 00:12:41,860 are you can't see the round that's in play, 275 00:12:41,860 --> 00:12:44,530 but there's information which, if you were at a computer 276 00:12:44,530 --> 00:12:46,440 you would remember this information, 277 00:12:46,440 --> 00:12:49,850 but oftentimes it's a fact that you can't actually remember it. 278 00:12:49,850 --> 00:12:53,020 PROFESSOR: The stuff that's hard to remember, 279 00:12:53,020 --> 00:12:57,180 the stuff that like-- 280 00:12:57,180 --> 00:12:59,180 let me see if I'm hearing you right. 281 00:12:59,180 --> 00:13:02,570 So for instance, the game off blackjack to a card 282 00:13:02,570 --> 00:13:05,300 counter is a very different game of blackjack for someone 283 00:13:05,300 --> 00:13:07,380 who sits down and plays for one round. 284 00:13:07,380 --> 00:13:07,880 Right? 285 00:13:07,880 --> 00:13:10,960 Because the game of blackjack for a card counter 286 00:13:10,960 --> 00:13:14,270 is aware that this five stack deck of cards 287 00:13:14,270 --> 00:13:17,120 has had a certain number of cards played out of it. 288 00:13:17,120 --> 00:13:20,750 And knowing, being able to remember how much has he played 289 00:13:20,750 --> 00:13:23,930 out of it has changed the actual percentage 290 00:13:23,930 --> 00:13:27,110 of what could come out. 291 00:13:27,110 --> 00:13:30,540 So what's been played before is technically public information. 292 00:13:30,540 --> 00:13:33,132 So previous rounds that were played out in the open, 293 00:13:33,132 --> 00:13:35,090 if you were really, really paying attention you 294 00:13:35,090 --> 00:13:36,465 could have seen that information. 295 00:13:36,465 --> 00:13:38,129 It's hard to remember, but you could 296 00:13:38,129 --> 00:13:40,670 have if you were a computer, if you're a video tape recorder, 297 00:13:40,670 --> 00:13:43,161 you want to be able to see that information. 298 00:13:43,161 --> 00:13:44,660 But then there's all the other cards 299 00:13:44,660 --> 00:13:49,130 left in this stack that's already been shuffled, 300 00:13:49,130 --> 00:13:51,830 and it's kind of in a fixed order. 301 00:13:51,830 --> 00:13:54,567 It was randomized before they shuffled it, 302 00:13:54,567 --> 00:13:56,400 so then not it's been shuffled and it's just 303 00:13:56,400 --> 00:13:58,790 sitting on a stack. 304 00:13:58,790 --> 00:14:03,577 That's what [INAUDIBLE]. 305 00:14:03,577 --> 00:14:05,660 It doesn't even have to be like a five stack deck, 306 00:14:05,660 --> 00:14:08,960 it could be just the three cards that were dealt face down 307 00:14:08,960 --> 00:14:12,960 at the beginning-- is it three cards for Texas hold'em? 308 00:14:12,960 --> 00:14:13,460 Two? 309 00:14:13,460 --> 00:14:16,460 OK, the two cards that are dealt face down in the center, nobody 310 00:14:16,460 --> 00:14:18,552 gets to see that until right at the end. 311 00:14:21,612 --> 00:14:23,570 But they're dealt at the beginning of the game, 312 00:14:23,570 --> 00:14:25,130 like in the second hand or-- 313 00:14:25,130 --> 00:14:26,152 AUDIENCE: The public? 314 00:14:26,152 --> 00:14:26,860 The public cards? 315 00:14:26,860 --> 00:14:28,090 Oh, that's three. 316 00:14:28,090 --> 00:14:29,090 PROFESSOR: Three, right. 317 00:14:29,090 --> 00:14:31,425 And they're down, right? 318 00:14:31,425 --> 00:14:33,580 AUDIENCE: After the first round, they're face up. 319 00:14:33,580 --> 00:14:35,630 PROFESSOR: After the first round they-- 320 00:14:35,630 --> 00:14:37,480 Yeah, that's right. 321 00:14:37,480 --> 00:14:39,290 It's a long time since I played hold 'em. 322 00:14:39,290 --> 00:14:42,420 So three cards, they're face down, but they've been dealt. 323 00:14:42,420 --> 00:14:45,470 So the randomizing, they have been triggered, 324 00:14:45,470 --> 00:14:48,450 the information is there, but no one knows it yet. 325 00:14:48,450 --> 00:14:50,366 AUDIENCE: In other words, not really different 326 00:14:50,366 --> 00:14:51,740 from random information. 327 00:14:51,740 --> 00:14:53,716 Like the difference between like, 328 00:14:53,716 --> 00:14:56,186 I haven't actually dealt the card yet, 329 00:14:56,186 --> 00:14:59,150 and I've dealt the card and no one's sees it. 330 00:14:59,150 --> 00:15:01,620 It seems like hidden information that no one 331 00:15:01,620 --> 00:15:03,430 knows is equivalent to random, like it's 332 00:15:03,430 --> 00:15:04,930 hidden information that's equivalent 333 00:15:04,930 --> 00:15:07,070 to random information. 334 00:15:07,070 --> 00:15:08,000 PROFESSOR: Not quite. 335 00:15:08,000 --> 00:15:09,860 There is a different quality with it, 336 00:15:09,860 --> 00:15:12,140 because that variable can no longer 337 00:15:12,140 --> 00:15:15,350 change in the rest of the game. 338 00:15:15,350 --> 00:15:18,500 Maybe the Texas Hold em one starts to get a little blurry, 339 00:15:18,500 --> 00:15:19,385 and it's-- 340 00:15:19,385 --> 00:15:21,605 AUDIENCE: But random information, like-- 341 00:15:25,170 --> 00:15:28,530 it's like players can treat-- like you 342 00:15:28,530 --> 00:15:29,850 can't treat it any different. 343 00:15:29,850 --> 00:15:32,880 Just because like if for some reason 344 00:15:32,880 --> 00:15:35,208 we've decided that we were, let's say 345 00:15:35,208 --> 00:15:37,080 I had a die-rolling-- let's say I wrote 346 00:15:37,080 --> 00:15:40,360 a die-rolling program and the random feed, 347 00:15:40,360 --> 00:15:43,110 and you are right-- no one knows what the next random feed was 348 00:15:43,110 --> 00:15:45,230 until what the next die-roll showed them. 349 00:15:45,230 --> 00:15:47,688 And you could say this is hidden information and not random 350 00:15:47,688 --> 00:15:50,580 information because the random feed i-- it already knows the-- 351 00:15:50,580 --> 00:15:51,340 PROFESSOR: Yeah, if you knew the feed 352 00:15:51,340 --> 00:15:53,180 and you knew the randomisation algorithm, 353 00:15:53,180 --> 00:15:54,150 then I would argue that information 354 00:15:54,150 --> 00:15:55,170 is no longer random. 355 00:15:55,170 --> 00:15:56,900 That's why they call it pseudo-random. 356 00:15:56,900 --> 00:15:58,920 It's not actually random anymore. 357 00:15:58,920 --> 00:16:01,089 AUDIENCE: But it's random in the sense that no-one-- 358 00:16:01,089 --> 00:16:03,380 it's random with regards to players so that players can 359 00:16:03,380 --> 00:16:05,921 treat it as random information, because they don't know how-- 360 00:16:05,921 --> 00:16:09,372 PROFESSOR: You can treat it as random information. 361 00:16:09,372 --> 00:16:12,880 AUDIENCE: So if you deal two cards out, face down 362 00:16:12,880 --> 00:16:15,945 in the deck, then at the time when you're dealing 363 00:16:15,945 --> 00:16:17,243 the first one, it's random? 364 00:16:17,243 --> 00:16:17,868 AUDIENCE: Yeah. 365 00:16:17,868 --> 00:16:22,375 AUDIENCE: But then the card that's the first one 366 00:16:22,375 --> 00:16:24,301 is a card that's already in play, 367 00:16:24,301 --> 00:16:25,800 and so when you take the second one, 368 00:16:25,800 --> 00:16:30,620 that card has a smaller phase of possibility. 369 00:16:30,620 --> 00:16:32,790 There is a specific card that that second one 370 00:16:32,790 --> 00:16:34,989 can't beat, the first one. 371 00:16:34,989 --> 00:16:37,530 AUDIENCE: But we don't have to see it that way, we can just-- 372 00:16:37,530 --> 00:16:40,080 AUDIENCE: What I'm saying is that if you want to-- 373 00:16:40,080 --> 00:16:42,695 if you deal one card and you want 374 00:16:42,695 --> 00:16:46,380 to reproduce the exact same situation elsewhere and then 375 00:16:46,380 --> 00:16:49,637 continue dealing from the deck, then maybe you're 376 00:16:49,637 --> 00:16:51,970 going to shuffle the deck before you deal a second card, 377 00:16:51,970 --> 00:16:53,906 and then that new card is random-- 378 00:16:53,906 --> 00:16:58,035 the second card-- except it's random out of a smaller 379 00:16:58,035 --> 00:16:59,070 possibility. 380 00:16:59,070 --> 00:17:03,820 And it's not just random because there is hidden information 381 00:17:03,820 --> 00:17:06,869 that the-- 382 00:17:06,869 --> 00:17:08,331 PROFESSOR: That's one other thing 383 00:17:08,331 --> 00:17:10,380 that you're not taking into consideration, 384 00:17:10,380 --> 00:17:13,810 and that's the fact that before-- 385 00:17:13,810 --> 00:17:17,579 after these three cards in Texas hold'em are dealt out face 386 00:17:17,579 --> 00:17:19,329 down, there was no a chance to look at it, 387 00:17:19,329 --> 00:17:21,870 but everyone's gotten a chance to see some of the cards that 388 00:17:21,870 --> 00:17:25,349 already have been dealt. And that has already changed 389 00:17:25,349 --> 00:17:29,130 the likelihood of what that card could be down, because-- 390 00:17:29,130 --> 00:17:33,395 AUDIENCE: Just because something isn't perfectly uniformly 391 00:17:33,395 --> 00:17:36,622 random, chosen from the distribution of everything, 392 00:17:36,622 --> 00:17:38,080 doesn't mean it's not still random. 393 00:17:38,080 --> 00:17:39,870 So what I'm saying is just because like-- 394 00:17:39,870 --> 00:17:44,500 so if I deal a face down cards, and then I 395 00:17:44,500 --> 00:17:47,280 throw a face up card that's the five of diamonds, 396 00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:49,600 even though I know it's a face down card, 397 00:17:49,600 --> 00:17:51,590 it's not the five of diamond, it's still random 398 00:17:51,590 --> 00:17:53,716 because it's now drawn from an equivalent 399 00:17:53,716 --> 00:17:57,044 of random information, yeah. 400 00:17:57,044 --> 00:17:59,434 AUDIENCE: I mean, this is perfect Schrodinger's cat, 401 00:17:59,434 --> 00:17:59,935 isn't it? 402 00:17:59,935 --> 00:18:01,809 PROFESSOR: No, it's not, because what happens 403 00:18:01,809 --> 00:18:03,480 is that you keep getting new cards 404 00:18:03,480 --> 00:18:06,030 throughout the entire game, right? 405 00:18:06,030 --> 00:18:09,313 And these cards slowly get revealed. 406 00:18:09,313 --> 00:18:12,280 AUDIENCE: I see that there is a distinction made between random 407 00:18:12,280 --> 00:18:17,060 and hidden for the purposes of the classification of games. 408 00:18:17,060 --> 00:18:19,770 There's probably a useful reason for it. 409 00:18:19,770 --> 00:18:22,950 I mean, sure, you can think of it as like now there's 410 00:18:22,950 --> 00:18:25,200 pendence between different cards and things like that, 411 00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:27,660 was probably just there for a useful way 412 00:18:27,660 --> 00:18:29,130 of thinking about games. 413 00:18:29,130 --> 00:18:31,436 AUDIENCE: What I'm saying is I don't think it's useful, 414 00:18:31,436 --> 00:18:33,352 and I think it's a kind of predicament. 415 00:18:33,352 --> 00:18:35,490 I think that there's different relationships. 416 00:18:35,490 --> 00:18:38,340 PROFESSOR: I'm not talking about statistical difference. 417 00:18:38,340 --> 00:18:42,300 I'm talking about what the players think about these three 418 00:18:42,300 --> 00:18:43,050 cards. 419 00:18:43,050 --> 00:18:44,970 They know the three cards are not being 420 00:18:44,970 --> 00:18:47,290 re-dealt every single hand. 421 00:18:47,290 --> 00:18:51,750 They know that no one can say, for instance, like someone 422 00:18:51,750 --> 00:18:56,670 can take the deck and shuffle it in the middle of a poker game. 423 00:18:56,670 --> 00:18:58,800 No one complains about that. 424 00:18:58,800 --> 00:19:00,310 You're allowed to do that. 425 00:19:00,310 --> 00:19:04,650 You can't re-deal another three cards. 426 00:19:04,650 --> 00:19:06,030 You're not allowed to. 427 00:19:06,030 --> 00:19:07,260 AUDIENCE: It doesn't change the probability distribution. 428 00:19:07,260 --> 00:19:08,780 PROFESSOR: It doesn't the probability distribution 429 00:19:08,780 --> 00:19:10,260 but you're not allowed to. 430 00:19:10,260 --> 00:19:14,590 The rules do not allow you to re-deal those three cards. 431 00:19:14,590 --> 00:19:17,789 There is a different weight that the rules 432 00:19:17,789 --> 00:19:19,330 have placed on those three cards that 433 00:19:19,330 --> 00:19:21,920 have been dealt saying those things are now fixed, 434 00:19:21,920 --> 00:19:25,096 whereas everything in that deck can be re-ordered. 435 00:19:28,290 --> 00:19:30,160 Your hand and your hand. 436 00:19:30,160 --> 00:19:32,160 AUDIENCE: For a different example, 437 00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:38,860 is the game Clue, where you have like this one item, the one 438 00:19:38,860 --> 00:19:42,220 person and the one room, and that is the way to getting it. 439 00:19:42,220 --> 00:19:44,720 In some senses it's random, but it 440 00:19:44,720 --> 00:19:47,272 determines who wins the game, and so in that sense 441 00:19:47,272 --> 00:19:50,440 it's like you wouldn't think if it as random necessarily, 442 00:19:50,440 --> 00:19:53,932 and while your rolling to move around and discover 443 00:19:53,932 --> 00:19:55,140 these things would be random. 444 00:19:55,140 --> 00:19:57,040 PROFESSOR: And that is actually also 445 00:19:57,040 --> 00:19:59,950 statistically different example, but a much clearer example 446 00:19:59,950 --> 00:20:00,970 of hidden information. 447 00:20:00,970 --> 00:20:03,497 Because that one, as you play the game, 448 00:20:03,497 --> 00:20:05,080 you are getting more and more and more 449 00:20:05,080 --> 00:20:07,450 information about what those cards could be. 450 00:20:07,450 --> 00:20:09,283 In fact, that's the whole point of the game, 451 00:20:09,283 --> 00:20:12,360 right, is trying to figure out what's in there. 452 00:20:12,360 --> 00:20:13,930 So in that particular case, that's 453 00:20:13,930 --> 00:20:17,050 hidden information that's random at the point 454 00:20:17,050 --> 00:20:19,930 when it was generated, but after that it is-- 455 00:20:19,930 --> 00:20:21,790 but as soon as people start playing, 456 00:20:21,790 --> 00:20:24,830 start making accusations, it's no longer random, 457 00:20:24,830 --> 00:20:27,210 it's just hidden information. 458 00:20:27,210 --> 00:20:30,110 So yeah, Clue is a much better example of that. 459 00:20:30,110 --> 00:20:33,100 Maybe the three cards and the Texas hold 'em are different. 460 00:20:33,100 --> 00:20:35,555 I still maintain that the quality of these-- 461 00:20:35,555 --> 00:20:37,180 they may not be statistically different 462 00:20:37,180 --> 00:20:38,950 but they are qualitatively different, 463 00:20:38,950 --> 00:20:42,760 because you can never re-randomize those cards 464 00:20:42,760 --> 00:20:43,835 according to the rules. 465 00:20:43,835 --> 00:20:45,710 AUDIENCE: It's something players think about, 466 00:20:45,710 --> 00:20:47,040 not because they're-- 467 00:20:47,040 --> 00:20:49,316 I think the reason different players think about them 468 00:20:49,316 --> 00:20:50,239 differently is that-- 469 00:20:50,239 --> 00:20:51,280 PROFESSOR: Well, that's-- 470 00:20:51,280 --> 00:20:52,670 AUDIENCE: That's not true. 471 00:20:52,670 --> 00:20:54,030 That's just not true. 472 00:20:54,030 --> 00:20:56,450 The cards are down and they're down. 473 00:20:56,450 --> 00:20:58,719 You cannot un-put them down. 474 00:20:58,719 --> 00:21:02,511 So qualitatively, they are completely different. 475 00:21:02,511 --> 00:21:06,447 AUDIENCE: When they're exactly the same, did you re-deal-- 476 00:21:06,447 --> 00:21:07,280 [INTERPOSING VOICES] 477 00:21:07,280 --> 00:21:09,285 PROFESSOR: OK, he had his hand up first, 478 00:21:09,285 --> 00:21:12,194 so let me get with him first and then we'll get back to you. 479 00:21:12,194 --> 00:21:14,402 AUDIENCE: It's actually also statistically different, 480 00:21:14,402 --> 00:21:18,390 because let me just simplify the poker example a lot. 481 00:21:18,390 --> 00:21:20,580 Let's say that we take one card from the deck 482 00:21:20,580 --> 00:21:24,060 and put it face-down, and then we flip a second card 483 00:21:24,060 --> 00:21:26,650 so that everyone sees it. 484 00:21:26,650 --> 00:21:28,260 And then, let's say someone gets it 485 00:21:28,260 --> 00:21:30,295 into their head to take that one card that 486 00:21:30,295 --> 00:21:31,850 was hidden, and shuffle it back in 487 00:21:31,850 --> 00:21:34,610 and deal a new one, that actually does-- 488 00:21:34,610 --> 00:21:36,610 The two situations where you do that 489 00:21:36,610 --> 00:21:38,090 and where you don't are different, 490 00:21:38,090 --> 00:21:44,630 because in the first situation, the card that was hidden 491 00:21:44,630 --> 00:21:49,860 had a equal probability over all 52 cards and followed-- 492 00:21:49,860 --> 00:21:52,420 and when you get one piece, the extra piece of information, 493 00:21:52,420 --> 00:21:55,210 after that your adjusted probability distribution is 494 00:21:55,210 --> 00:21:57,920 equal over the 51 cards. 495 00:21:57,920 --> 00:22:02,520 However, if you reveal that one card and then take it back, 496 00:22:02,520 --> 00:22:05,380 then if someone-- 497 00:22:05,380 --> 00:22:08,430 you don't necessarily have that card visible to everyone, 498 00:22:08,430 --> 00:22:09,750 for example-- 499 00:22:09,750 --> 00:22:12,660 PROFESSOR: But it's true that the example-- 500 00:22:12,660 --> 00:22:16,130 AUDIENCE: Two or three cards, it would be the same. 501 00:22:16,130 --> 00:22:17,680 PROFESSOR: Yeah, you are describing 502 00:22:17,680 --> 00:22:19,180 a situation where someone's actually 503 00:22:19,180 --> 00:22:24,450 had a chance to actually look at that card, face-down, yeah. 504 00:22:24,450 --> 00:22:26,980 And that does change things because that 505 00:22:26,980 --> 00:22:30,040 becomes private information to someone else. 506 00:22:30,040 --> 00:22:33,690 So that takes it kind of outside of the realm of example, 507 00:22:33,690 --> 00:22:36,580 but yeah, I do agree that statistically there's 508 00:22:36,580 --> 00:22:38,260 not actually a huge amount of difference 509 00:22:38,260 --> 00:22:39,580 between the cards that are face-down 510 00:22:39,580 --> 00:22:41,121 and the cards that you're drawing off 511 00:22:41,121 --> 00:22:43,180 the top of the deck. 512 00:22:43,180 --> 00:22:45,561 And then get your hand and then your hand. 513 00:22:45,561 --> 00:22:48,186 AUDIENCE: So the problem I have is first of all, statistically, 514 00:22:48,186 --> 00:22:49,267 there's no difference. 515 00:22:49,267 --> 00:22:51,920 Not a little difference, there's no difference. 516 00:22:51,920 --> 00:22:54,778 And so as a player, you sort of think 517 00:22:54,778 --> 00:22:56,909 about cards that are faced a little bit differently 518 00:22:56,909 --> 00:22:58,242 than cards that are in the deck. 519 00:22:58,242 --> 00:23:00,489 But if I'm playing to win, ultimately I 520 00:23:00,489 --> 00:23:02,195 have to think of them as mostly random. 521 00:23:02,195 --> 00:23:02,861 PROFESSOR: Sure. 522 00:23:02,861 --> 00:23:05,402 AUDIENCE: Like I have to think of them as what would probably 523 00:23:05,402 --> 00:23:07,160 be distributions of the cards. 524 00:23:07,160 --> 00:23:08,660 PROFESSOR: Strategically, you could, 525 00:23:08,660 --> 00:23:10,190 it's probably advantageous for you 526 00:23:10,190 --> 00:23:12,830 to think that they're the same statistical, 527 00:23:12,830 --> 00:23:15,140 difference because they are. 528 00:23:15,140 --> 00:23:17,510 And I'm not disagreeing that statistically they 529 00:23:17,510 --> 00:23:18,920 have the same likelihood there. 530 00:23:18,920 --> 00:23:21,170 I'm saying that in terms of how the rules are worded, 531 00:23:21,170 --> 00:23:22,630 they are very different. 532 00:23:22,630 --> 00:23:24,796 AUDIENCE: OK, so does the use of this definition 533 00:23:24,796 --> 00:23:26,795 come in when you're like just writing the rules? 534 00:23:26,795 --> 00:23:28,986 PROFESSOR: When you're designing a game. 535 00:23:28,986 --> 00:23:30,860 Not necessarily when you're playing the game, 536 00:23:30,860 --> 00:23:32,256 but when you're designing the game. 537 00:23:32,256 --> 00:23:32,970 AUDIENCE: One thing to think about 538 00:23:32,970 --> 00:23:34,985 is is when we were talking about that clear example, 539 00:23:34,985 --> 00:23:36,568 when you have something that's hidden, 540 00:23:36,568 --> 00:23:38,710 you can possibly gain information about it that 541 00:23:38,710 --> 00:23:39,937 will be useful, right? 542 00:23:39,937 --> 00:23:42,020 You gain information about what that Clue card is. 543 00:23:42,020 --> 00:23:44,186 There's no way you're ever going to gain information 544 00:23:44,186 --> 00:23:46,460 about what the next roll of the die is going to be, 545 00:23:46,460 --> 00:23:48,960 unless you're doing some kind of major statistical analysis. 546 00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:50,209 AUDIENCE: But that's possible. 547 00:23:53,207 --> 00:23:55,040 PROFESSOR: For roll of a die, yeah, I mean-- 548 00:23:55,040 --> 00:23:58,542 AUDIENCE: But it's still random, there's still a probability 549 00:23:58,542 --> 00:23:59,950 distribution over what it is? 550 00:23:59,950 --> 00:24:01,124 AUDIENCE: Not really. 551 00:24:01,124 --> 00:24:03,404 AUDIENCE: No, if you're rolling the die-- 552 00:24:03,404 --> 00:24:03,866 AUDIENCE: I'm not going through that. 553 00:24:03,866 --> 00:24:05,575 It's just theoretically possible that you 554 00:24:05,575 --> 00:24:06,990 could compute what the die roll is 555 00:24:06,990 --> 00:24:08,500 going to be before I roll it. 556 00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:13,369 PROFESSOR: There's one very clear example 557 00:24:13,369 --> 00:24:14,660 when you can compute it, right? 558 00:24:14,660 --> 00:24:17,540 Because you know those dice are loaded. 559 00:24:17,540 --> 00:24:21,754 Yeah, you know those dice are loaded, 560 00:24:21,754 --> 00:24:23,170 and in that particular case you've 561 00:24:23,170 --> 00:24:25,942 got private information just in the same way 562 00:24:25,942 --> 00:24:28,400 that if you're using, say a pseudo random number generator. 563 00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:30,608 AUDIENCE: But if you flip a Clue card more than once, 564 00:24:30,608 --> 00:24:31,530 it doesn't change. 565 00:24:31,530 --> 00:24:34,390 And if you get information about what that is, 566 00:24:34,390 --> 00:24:38,210 it stays the same, right? 567 00:24:38,210 --> 00:24:41,126 AUDIENCE: Do you think that the Clue example is an example 568 00:24:41,126 --> 00:24:42,098 of private information? 569 00:24:42,098 --> 00:24:42,844 AUDIENCE: No. 570 00:24:42,844 --> 00:24:45,385 AUDIENCE: Is it an example of private and random information, 571 00:24:45,385 --> 00:24:47,230 it's not really like-- 572 00:24:47,230 --> 00:24:49,650 PROFESSOR: No, it's important to remember, 573 00:24:49,650 --> 00:24:52,750 to know that isn't information because no player actually 574 00:24:52,750 --> 00:24:56,540 gets to see what that card is when it 575 00:24:56,540 --> 00:24:58,162 is inserted into the envelope. 576 00:24:58,162 --> 00:24:59,620 For those people who haven't played 577 00:24:59,620 --> 00:25:01,786 Clue, what happens is that you've got a whole stack, 578 00:25:01,786 --> 00:25:08,650 you have three different stacks of people, places, and things 579 00:25:08,650 --> 00:25:13,390 that you can kill people with from the 1950s or something. 580 00:25:13,390 --> 00:25:15,400 And then you get one-- 581 00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:18,400 three-deck card shuffle, you pick up one card for each, 582 00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:21,520 and those three cards go into an envelope 583 00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:24,245 that nobody gets to see until pretty late in the game. 584 00:25:26,890 --> 00:25:28,900 And that those cards will never change. 585 00:25:28,900 --> 00:25:31,741 That's a very clear example of hidden information 586 00:25:31,741 --> 00:25:34,240 because at the point when they were generated, you're right, 587 00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:35,410 that was random. 588 00:25:35,410 --> 00:25:38,074 But then it gets turned to this piece of hidden information 589 00:25:38,074 --> 00:25:40,240 that everyone is trying to find out during the game. 590 00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:41,823 The whole point of Clue is that you're 591 00:25:41,823 --> 00:25:46,180 trying to figure this out. 592 00:25:46,180 --> 00:25:47,620 And there are rules governing who 593 00:25:47,620 --> 00:25:50,110 gets to see that hidden information, 594 00:25:50,110 --> 00:25:53,590 when, there's rules governing how you generate 595 00:25:53,590 --> 00:25:56,650 that information, and there are mechanics for you 596 00:25:56,650 --> 00:25:58,622 to be able to figure out what's inside there. 597 00:26:01,240 --> 00:26:02,360 Let me see. 598 00:26:02,360 --> 00:26:05,350 There was another point that I was going to make about that. 599 00:26:05,350 --> 00:26:08,230 And it's true that if you, say we implemented 600 00:26:08,230 --> 00:26:09,970 that on a computer or any game that 601 00:26:09,970 --> 00:26:12,340 has some sort of randomizing thing in a computer, 602 00:26:12,340 --> 00:26:15,070 and you could figure out how the randomizing was 603 00:26:15,070 --> 00:26:17,460 being done because very few things in a computer 604 00:26:17,460 --> 00:26:20,640 are truly random. 605 00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:23,920 Then you will be able to, say figure out OK, 606 00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:25,840 the next die roll should be a certain number. 607 00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:28,690 The other day I talked about how when you play certain strategy 608 00:26:28,690 --> 00:26:31,120 games, and you had like a 50% chance of succeeding 609 00:26:31,120 --> 00:26:33,760 at something, then technically if you 610 00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:35,020 save the game right behind-- 611 00:26:35,020 --> 00:26:37,510 right before you did it, and you kept doing it, 612 00:26:37,510 --> 00:26:40,330 then you will eventually have 100% chance of succeeding, 613 00:26:40,330 --> 00:26:44,050 because you just keep playing it until you win. 614 00:26:44,050 --> 00:26:46,800 Unless, of course, it's a pseudo random number generator 615 00:26:46,800 --> 00:26:49,510 that is saving the feed, and so the outcome always turns out 616 00:26:49,510 --> 00:26:51,736 to be the same each time. 617 00:26:51,736 --> 00:26:53,110 And if you have that information, 618 00:26:53,110 --> 00:26:54,609 that's actually private information. 619 00:26:54,609 --> 00:26:56,740 The question is, is that actually 620 00:26:56,740 --> 00:26:58,360 going to be something that you're 621 00:26:58,360 --> 00:27:01,430 designing into your game, or something that you just 622 00:27:01,430 --> 00:27:03,540 choose to live with? 623 00:27:03,540 --> 00:27:06,730 And as a designer, you get to make that decision. 624 00:27:06,730 --> 00:27:08,970 You get to decide things like, I'm 625 00:27:08,970 --> 00:27:11,700 going to save the random number feed when I save the same game. 626 00:27:11,700 --> 00:27:15,310 You can decide to reveal what you're randomizing scheme 627 00:27:15,310 --> 00:27:19,609 is to the rest of the world, and to a hardcore computer hacker, 628 00:27:19,609 --> 00:27:22,150 it wouldn't it be that hard to figure out what kind of method 629 00:27:22,150 --> 00:27:22,733 they're using. 630 00:27:26,360 --> 00:27:27,940 You can choose to say no, this is 631 00:27:27,940 --> 00:27:30,120 a very closely guarded secret. 632 00:27:30,120 --> 00:27:38,800 I'm actually generating it by analyzing this Geiger counter, 633 00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:41,580 and seeing when certain ticks come, 634 00:27:41,580 --> 00:27:48,410 I mean that's as close to random as we can get. 635 00:27:48,410 --> 00:27:50,635 You can choose to do all of that as a designer, 636 00:27:50,635 --> 00:27:53,410 and the question is where do you want to set 637 00:27:53,410 --> 00:27:56,020 those limits for your own game? 638 00:27:56,020 --> 00:27:59,230 Things like, for instance, yeah theoretically, a pair of dice 639 00:27:59,230 --> 00:28:01,740 can generate any number between two and 12. 640 00:28:01,740 --> 00:28:04,240 But anyone who has played games for a certain amount of time 641 00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:08,680 realizes that 2 and 12 are really rare compared to 7. 642 00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:11,002 And there are games that take advantage of that, 643 00:28:11,002 --> 00:28:13,210 and there are games who don't take advantage of that. 644 00:28:13,210 --> 00:28:16,230 There are some games that basically treat a roll of 12 645 00:28:16,230 --> 00:28:19,330 and a roll of two exactly the same as a roll of 7, especially 646 00:28:19,330 --> 00:28:22,500 like the race games. 647 00:28:22,500 --> 00:28:27,390 You move that number of steps but they're not like balanced 648 00:28:27,390 --> 00:28:31,930 so that 2 and 12 are expected to come up 649 00:28:31,930 --> 00:28:33,790 less often or more often. 650 00:28:33,790 --> 00:28:35,680 That's why you-- I've seen versions of things 651 00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:38,603 like Candy Land, where they replace the spinner with dice. 652 00:28:38,603 --> 00:28:41,140 And it's like, wait a minute, that completely throws off 653 00:28:41,140 --> 00:28:42,600 the likelihood that-- 654 00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:44,920 the way how the pace of the game works. 655 00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:48,653 But for Candy Land it doesn't matter. 656 00:28:48,653 --> 00:28:52,870 So you're kind of equally likely to win. 657 00:28:52,870 --> 00:28:54,460 So for that game, that's something 658 00:28:54,460 --> 00:28:57,310 where you can do those types of substitutions. 659 00:28:57,310 --> 00:28:59,890 I think it is actually very, very useful 660 00:28:59,890 --> 00:29:01,510 to be able to talk about this when 661 00:29:01,510 --> 00:29:04,690 it comes to the design of your own rules. 662 00:29:04,690 --> 00:29:07,610 It's useful to be able to talk about it with other designers. 663 00:29:07,610 --> 00:29:09,640 Say he has this piece of information 664 00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:13,359 that we're storing early on, maybe because we got cards that 665 00:29:13,359 --> 00:29:14,900 are flipped down, maybe you got cards 666 00:29:14,900 --> 00:29:16,108 we're putting it an envelope. 667 00:29:16,108 --> 00:29:19,000 Maybe just a quantity of things in a bag or something, and then 668 00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:21,590 you have to reach into it and pull things out, like the bag 669 00:29:21,590 --> 00:29:23,860 in Scrabble. 670 00:29:23,860 --> 00:29:30,080 Things that sort of randomize in a bag, 671 00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:33,280 the actual which one you're going to draw next from it 672 00:29:33,280 --> 00:29:36,190 is somewhat random, based on some sort of probability. 673 00:29:36,190 --> 00:29:39,150 But the possibility of that could be public information. 674 00:29:39,150 --> 00:29:40,750 It could be hidden information. 675 00:29:40,750 --> 00:29:44,590 You might not know what the distribution of stuff 676 00:29:44,590 --> 00:29:45,908 inside that bag to begin with. 677 00:29:48,580 --> 00:29:51,070 And that's why I want you to be able to use 678 00:29:51,070 --> 00:29:54,520 these words in describing how things are working 679 00:29:54,520 --> 00:29:57,450 in your own game, to your own teammates, 680 00:29:57,450 --> 00:29:59,464 and especially to us. 681 00:29:59,464 --> 00:30:00,880 Because we want to understand what 682 00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:02,338 it is that you're trying to achieve 683 00:30:02,338 --> 00:30:04,340 with this bit of information. 684 00:30:04,340 --> 00:30:06,820 Hidden information typically is something 685 00:30:06,820 --> 00:30:09,400 that you're going to try to allow people to figure out 686 00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:10,800 over time. 687 00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:13,090 And that's a lot of that's a lot of stake 688 00:30:13,090 --> 00:30:16,072 over what that hidden piece of information is. 689 00:30:16,072 --> 00:30:17,530 Whereas that's not a whole lot of-- 690 00:30:17,530 --> 00:30:23,530 and it's kind of like shared among everybody who's looking 691 00:30:23,530 --> 00:30:25,020 at a piece of information. 692 00:30:25,020 --> 00:30:29,770 Whereas something that's random is usually, 693 00:30:29,770 --> 00:30:31,840 kind of at that moment it's really important, 694 00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:34,391 and after that it's not so important anymore. 695 00:30:34,391 --> 00:30:35,890 It has some sort of consequence that 696 00:30:35,890 --> 00:30:41,020 might be recorded in the score, but it's not like from turn 697 00:30:41,020 --> 00:30:44,410 to turn that particular role or that particular spin 698 00:30:44,410 --> 00:30:47,650 was all that important. 699 00:30:47,650 --> 00:30:49,880 Private information and public information 700 00:30:49,880 --> 00:30:52,150 tend to be pretty easy to talk about, 701 00:30:52,150 --> 00:30:56,470 so they're just useful terms to get people 702 00:30:56,470 --> 00:30:59,150 to discuss with each other. 703 00:30:59,150 --> 00:31:02,115 And so I just want to introduce these terms, 704 00:31:02,115 --> 00:31:05,506 this is the taxonomy that was provided by Celia Pearce. 705 00:31:05,506 --> 00:31:06,880 It sort of expands on the perfect 706 00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:09,670 and the imperfect information because imperfect information 707 00:31:09,670 --> 00:31:11,950 gets kind of fuzzy because it has 708 00:31:11,950 --> 00:31:14,830 all these different versions. 709 00:31:14,830 --> 00:31:19,750 And now that I everybody who's planning on showing up today 710 00:31:19,750 --> 00:31:25,150 has shown up, we should probably start setting up for play time. 711 00:31:25,150 --> 00:31:26,680 So is everyone sitting in teams? 712 00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:30,340 I think everyone's more or less sitting where you were, right ? 713 00:31:30,340 --> 00:31:33,320 Any questions so far on other questions 714 00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:35,670 based on what are we talking about? 715 00:31:35,670 --> 00:31:38,680 Like to clarify why I think these 716 00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:40,024 should be used differently. 717 00:31:42,632 --> 00:31:45,090 How many of you have changed your game mechanic by the way? 718 00:31:49,070 --> 00:31:52,745 What would you describe it as now? 719 00:31:52,745 --> 00:31:54,310 AUDIENCE: Yeah, maybe deception. 720 00:31:54,310 --> 00:31:56,280 PROFESSOR: Deception. 721 00:31:56,280 --> 00:31:58,650 AUDIENCE: It's not built. 722 00:31:58,650 --> 00:32:00,790 PROFESSOR: OK, something like laughing, 723 00:32:00,790 --> 00:32:05,857 something like faking out your opponent. 724 00:32:05,857 --> 00:32:08,440 Everyone else still pretty much sticking with what you've got? 725 00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:10,501 Is that still building? 726 00:32:10,501 --> 00:32:15,142 AUDIENCE: You're building like a board. 727 00:32:15,142 --> 00:32:16,600 PROFESSOR: You're building a board. 728 00:32:16,600 --> 00:32:18,266 I haven't see that part of the game yet. 729 00:32:18,266 --> 00:32:21,310 AUDIENCE: Well, not building-- you're building on the board. 730 00:32:21,310 --> 00:32:24,790 PROFESSOR: I think I need to just play our game to get it. 731 00:32:24,790 --> 00:32:26,440 Because it looks like [INAUDIBLE]. 732 00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:31,840 All right, so again, can I see which group 733 00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:34,110 has two-player games? 734 00:32:34,110 --> 00:32:36,060 1, 2, 3, OK. 735 00:32:36,060 --> 00:32:37,800 And the rest? 736 00:32:37,800 --> 00:32:40,620 Who has four-player games? 737 00:32:40,620 --> 00:32:42,960 And you all have the be three-player games? 738 00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:43,740 OK, all right. 739 00:32:46,460 --> 00:32:49,580 So, wait, hold on, both of you are two-player games 740 00:32:49,580 --> 00:32:52,520 and then you played each other's games last time? 741 00:32:52,520 --> 00:32:54,140 Oh, you didn't? 742 00:32:54,140 --> 00:32:56,250 OK, all right then. 743 00:32:56,250 --> 00:32:58,040 Then that's easy, the two of you should 744 00:32:58,040 --> 00:32:59,880 be playing each other's games. 745 00:32:59,880 --> 00:33:05,510 Again, there should be observers who have recording material 746 00:33:05,510 --> 00:33:06,300 to be able to-- 747 00:33:06,300 --> 00:33:10,252 AUDIENCE: Is there a team of two playing the game, though? 748 00:33:10,252 --> 00:33:11,960 PROFESSOR: No, don't play simultaneously. 749 00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:12,650 AUDIENCE: OK, got it. 750 00:33:12,650 --> 00:33:14,316 PROFESSOR: So that team comes over here, 751 00:33:14,316 --> 00:33:17,060 plays this game, then everybody here goes over there, 752 00:33:17,060 --> 00:33:18,920 plays that game. 753 00:33:18,920 --> 00:33:21,670 There's probably enough time for that. 754 00:33:21,670 --> 00:33:23,300 AUDIENCE: Would it make sense if it all 755 00:33:23,300 --> 00:33:26,289 had two-player games on one set of tables? 756 00:33:26,289 --> 00:33:28,580 PROFESSOR: I think it would help if just the two of you 757 00:33:28,580 --> 00:33:30,820 just came up here and brought your game with you. 758 00:33:30,820 --> 00:33:33,260 And then you can just like hang out here because-- 759 00:33:33,260 --> 00:33:36,000 we're only going to end up playing one of, 760 00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:38,210 either you're team's game or their team at one time. 761 00:33:38,210 --> 00:33:40,400 They're not going to play more games at one table. 762 00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:42,770 The rest of you, let's see. 763 00:33:42,770 --> 00:33:45,795 How many of you have your game ready to go? 764 00:33:45,795 --> 00:33:47,170 AUDIENCE: What was your question? 765 00:33:47,170 --> 00:33:51,750 PROFESSOR: How many of you have had a game ready to go? 766 00:33:51,750 --> 00:33:52,790 All right. 767 00:33:52,790 --> 00:33:55,790 I've played your game recently, you haven't. 768 00:33:55,790 --> 00:33:57,248 AUDIENCE: I've not played this one. 769 00:33:57,248 --> 00:33:58,873 I've played an old version of that one, 770 00:33:58,873 --> 00:34:01,090 and I've played the one in the corner yesterday. 771 00:34:01,090 --> 00:34:03,067 I haven't played those two. 772 00:34:03,067 --> 00:34:03,650 PROFESSOR: OK. 773 00:34:06,870 --> 00:34:09,489 Have these two groups played each other's games yet? 774 00:34:09,489 --> 00:34:10,340 AUDIENCE: Probably. 775 00:34:10,340 --> 00:34:11,173 PROFESSOR: You have? 776 00:34:11,173 --> 00:34:13,110 Then what I'm going to suggest is 777 00:34:13,110 --> 00:34:19,139 that three people from this group come over here 778 00:34:19,139 --> 00:34:21,360 and play this game first, all right? 779 00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:27,404 And then Rick and I will join these two 780 00:34:27,404 --> 00:34:32,310 to play the middle game, and then the four of you 781 00:34:32,310 --> 00:34:34,151 will play that game. 782 00:34:34,151 --> 00:34:36,150 AUDIENCE: I've played that game already, though. 783 00:34:36,150 --> 00:34:37,370 PROFESSOR: Oh, you have? 784 00:34:37,370 --> 00:34:38,429 AUDIENCE: Yeah. 785 00:34:38,429 --> 00:34:39,710 PROFESSOR: I think we can-- 786 00:34:39,710 --> 00:34:41,460 all four of you have played the same game? 787 00:34:41,460 --> 00:34:42,030 AUDIENCE: Yeah. 788 00:34:42,030 --> 00:34:43,613 PROFESSOR: Has it changed dramatically 789 00:34:43,613 --> 00:34:47,190 since the last time you played the game? 790 00:34:47,190 --> 00:34:48,106 AUDIENCE: Not really. 791 00:34:48,106 --> 00:34:50,920 AUDIENCE: How many times of each game are we trying to get to? 792 00:34:50,920 --> 00:34:52,284 Do we play three for each game? 793 00:34:52,284 --> 00:34:53,866 PROFESSOR: Just one, actually. 794 00:34:53,866 --> 00:34:56,732 I'm pretty sure that after one they'll be things to change. 795 00:34:56,732 --> 00:34:58,690 And if we have time, maybe we can get one more. 796 00:35:00,931 --> 00:35:03,430 AUDIENCE: Let me do a quick hand to see what other staff are 797 00:35:03,430 --> 00:35:05,584 available, and we can get-- 798 00:35:05,584 --> 00:35:07,750 PROFESSOR: Let's see if we can get a few more people 799 00:35:07,750 --> 00:35:11,560 to play that game over there. 800 00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:13,670 All right, so let me just change this up then. 801 00:35:13,670 --> 00:35:17,400 Three of you come over here and bring this game right now. 802 00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:17,900 OK? 803 00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:26,690 For the presentation at the end of assignment one, 804 00:35:26,690 --> 00:35:29,190 I do want you to talk a little bit about the game 805 00:35:29,190 --> 00:35:31,345 but don't explain the rules of your game 806 00:35:31,345 --> 00:35:32,910 before doing your presentation. 807 00:35:32,910 --> 00:35:34,826 That will use up all the time that you've got. 808 00:35:34,826 --> 00:35:38,240 Talk about a process, talk about what you started with, 809 00:35:38,240 --> 00:35:41,990 what you would try, what didn't work and what kind of changes 810 00:35:41,990 --> 00:35:43,180 that make you make. 811 00:35:43,180 --> 00:35:46,360 You know, what work and how you roll with it. 812 00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:48,110 I want to hear more about the story of how 813 00:35:48,110 --> 00:35:51,170 you got to where you are, because right after you do 814 00:35:51,170 --> 00:35:54,260 the presentation, we'll actually sit down and play 815 00:35:54,260 --> 00:35:56,736 each other's games just like today, only [INAUDIBLE] 816 00:35:56,736 --> 00:35:58,860 so you don't have to do like recording or anything, 817 00:35:58,860 --> 00:35:59,974 everyone just plays games. 818 00:35:59,974 --> 00:36:01,390 AUDIENCE: How is the presentation? 819 00:36:01,390 --> 00:36:02,960 PROFESSOR: I think only five minutes. 820 00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:04,250 It should be in the syllabus. 821 00:36:04,250 --> 00:36:05,950 I thought I wrote five minutes. 822 00:36:05,950 --> 00:36:07,694 It's pretty fast. 823 00:36:07,694 --> 00:36:09,110 It doesn't have to be one of those 824 00:36:09,110 --> 00:36:11,380 like every single person on the team 825 00:36:11,380 --> 00:36:13,040 has to say something kind of thing, 826 00:36:13,040 --> 00:36:17,420 but if you want to organize it that way you totally can. 827 00:36:17,420 --> 00:36:21,270 I just want to hear about what is the story of the game. 828 00:36:21,270 --> 00:36:22,840 The other thing is that I actually 829 00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:27,150 didn't look up the situation with Texas hold 'em, 830 00:36:27,150 --> 00:36:28,860 but I am going to reverse my position. 831 00:36:28,860 --> 00:36:31,140 That is, I think, not hidden information. 832 00:36:31,140 --> 00:36:33,270 And two things swayed me. 833 00:36:33,270 --> 00:36:36,230 One is I started discussing it with a bunch of other game 834 00:36:36,230 --> 00:36:39,497 designers online, and I discovered 835 00:36:39,497 --> 00:36:41,330 that there are a couple of variants of Texas 836 00:36:41,330 --> 00:36:43,970 hold 'em, where you never deal what 837 00:36:43,970 --> 00:36:45,810 they call the flop face down. 838 00:36:45,810 --> 00:36:49,407 You just play it face up one at a time. 839 00:36:49,407 --> 00:36:50,990 At this point, it's just a random view 840 00:36:50,990 --> 00:36:54,410 from the top of the deck and that makes it-- 841 00:36:54,410 --> 00:36:58,190 it started to be the same either way, 842 00:36:58,190 --> 00:37:00,740 only just because they're listed, right, that it's 843 00:37:00,740 --> 00:37:01,740 basically a random deal. 844 00:37:01,740 --> 00:37:03,547 So yes, that is in fact random. 845 00:37:03,547 --> 00:37:05,880 That's a very bad example to use for hidden information, 846 00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:08,000 whereas the Clue thing is because the whole point 847 00:37:08,000 --> 00:37:09,410 of that game is that it gives you 848 00:37:09,410 --> 00:37:12,092 all these tools to be able to reveal this information. 849 00:37:12,092 --> 00:37:14,300 At that point in time where you put your cards inside 850 00:37:14,300 --> 00:37:16,670 it is made up by then once it's inside 851 00:37:16,670 --> 00:37:20,730 that person starts there's no hidden information. 852 00:37:20,730 --> 00:37:22,570 Thank you very much.