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PROFESSOR: All right, so
today is the last of our guest

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lectures before we
go into, what else?

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Sorry.

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Not the last day.

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This is Monday, right?

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AUDIENCE: It's Monday.

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PROFESSOR: I'm already
feeling the crunch.

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So we've got-- this is the
last week of guest lectures.

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Today, we've got Michael
Carrier and Jenna

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Hostein talking to us about the
business of Indie development.

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They are representatives
from PD Game Collective.

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That happens-- they are a
group of people who make games

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together over in Intrepid Labs?

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And that's over which
[INAUDIBLE] building?

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AUDIENCE: The American
Fine Building.

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PROFESSOR: The
American Fine Building.

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They'll talk more about that.

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They often have open
lunch days and things

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like that for students to come.

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So I'm sure they'll talk a
little bit about that as well.

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They will also be available
after the guest lecture.

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If you want them
to play your game

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and get some
feedback on your game

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if your game is ready
to get more feedback,

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they can do that.

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It's again entirely optional.

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If you have a
build-- hopefully you

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do-- I'll allow you to
play briefly and get

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some feedback from them.

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That's it.

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So I'm going to hand
the stage over to them.

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JENNA HOSTEIN: Is
my audio working?

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We're good?

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All right.

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Hello.

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My name is Jenna Hostein.

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I'm the founder of
Little World Interactive,

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and I'm a part of the Indie
Game Collective, as Rick said.

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We're about six or
seven blocks north,

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so we'd love to see you
guys either in the evenings,

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or we do Friday
lunch get-togethers.

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Michael can fill you in on that.

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He is more familiar with
the details than I am.

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But I am here to
talk to you today

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about the business
of Indie development.

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If you're an Indie
developer, you

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can't get away from business.

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When I first started, I--
I am a designer by trade

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and a developer by necessity,
and a business person dragged

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kicking and screaming into it.

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It was really something
I was interested in.

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It remains something that I'm
not super passionate about,

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but it's absolutely crucial
to have any level of success.

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So I'm going to talk to
you a little bit about what

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the past couple
years have been like.

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So first, let's talk about
the realities of time

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as an Indie developer.

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When I worked at
a larger studio,

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I used to daydream about
what it would be like to work

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as an Indie developer.

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In those dreams,
it was me by myself

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sitting at my desk just
working, and that, to me,

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was like this beautiful,
glorious manna from heaven.

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I just wanted to sit
and work on my game.

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So this was, naively,
my expectation

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going into Indie
game development--

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that this was going to my life.

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I actually found out,
that was not the truth.

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So there are events all of
the time in the game world.

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There's PAX east, PAX south,
PAX prime, PAX Australia.

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GEC, Indie K, Games for Change.

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I could probably list
five or ten more events

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off the top of my head.

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It's absolutely crucial
that you attend these

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both as an attendee
just to network

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and to exhibit your game.

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For example, PAX
prime this year,

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it took probably two,
three, maybe even four weeks

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full time prepping for
that, attending that,

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and then coming down
from that and tying up

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all the loose ends.

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So do not underestimate
the amount of time

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that it takes to actually
attend a lot of these events.

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Marketing.

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Another thing that is
really not my favorite,

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but I think a lot
of Indie developers

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have a tendency
to make their game

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their beautiful
precious baby, and then

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they throw it over the
fence and they say,

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am I a millionaire yet?

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And that's just
not how it works.

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It's a constant ongoing
effort to make people aware

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of your game, to make people
care at all about your game.

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Because guess what?

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You're one of
thousands and thousands

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of developers who are doing
exactly the same thing.

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So this has to be a
constant ongoing effort

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to rise above the noise.

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Communication internal.

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So I discovered very quickly
that I am terrible at art,

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I am terrible at sound, I
am terrible at marketing.

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So I brought in other
people to do these things.

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And when you work
with other people,

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you have to talk to those other
people, so that takes time.

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Communication external.

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There is a huge Indie
game dev community,

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and if you're not taking
advantage of those folks

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and really learning as
much as you can from them,

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then you are doomed to fail.

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I saw somebody recently
who has been at Indie

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for about a year
and a half, and he

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was doing this-- where he was
sitting in his house very, very

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insulated and he had
created a game that

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didn't look wildly interesting
and clearly had not gotten

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input from almost anybody.

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He was working on his own engine
and it looked like something we

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could have built in Unity in
probably a couple of weeks.

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So that, to me, was
clearly a failure

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of just talking to other
Indies and learning

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from them what they're
doing and their successes

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and their failures.

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QA and deployment.

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Learning how to do QA and
learning how to deploy

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was another huge hurdle for
me, and this just takes time.

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I have released very,
very broken builds before,

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and you don't want to do that.

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So QA is a necessity.

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So this chart, to me,
is really interesting,

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because if you look at how
squashed that bottom bar has

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gotten.

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I spend less than half of my
time actually making the game.

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And that's why I got into
this in the first place--

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I just wanted to
make my own games.

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So this is the reality
of the situation.

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This is not a bad thing.

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This is just how it has
to be to have really

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any level of success.

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So when I first-- I developed
The Counting Kingdom-- sorry,

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I totally forgot to
introduce myself.

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I made an educational
game for kids

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called the Counting Kingdom.

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Just released for iOS
recently, also on Steam.

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When I first budgeted out how
long I thought that would take,

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it was about six months.

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It ended up taking about a year.

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And if you take into
consideration this chart,

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I was right on, because
given I was only

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spending about half my
time working on the game,

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it took twice as long as I
thought it was going to make.

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So now, whenever I try to
estimate how long something

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will take, I take my gut
check and then I double it,

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and that's usually
pretty accurate.

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OK.

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So let's talk about
working with other folks.

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So I discovered
very, very quickly,

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I'm not particularly
good at art.

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I'm not particularly
good at sound.

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So I needed to bring
in other people

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to compensate in these
areas that I was failing.

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So I work with six people
very, very part time.

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Luigi does art, Will does
PR, Sam does animation,

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Jonas does sound effects.

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Brendan does music and Emma
does community management.

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And all of these people
were not just random people.

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At no point did I
put out something

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into the world saying, I'm
looking for a community

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manager-- get in touch.

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I would never do that.

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That sounds like a lot of
work and just a terrible way

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to actually find somebody.

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So both Luigi and
Will are folks that I

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met through the local
games community.

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Luigi did the art for
Girls Like Robots,

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and I basically stalked
him and tracked him down.

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I was like, whoever did this,
I need them to make my game.

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Fortunately, he
was a local guys,

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and so I got to meet
him, talk to him

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and discover that he was
a great for the team.

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Both Sam and Jonas
were folks that were

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recommended by people I trust.

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Sam was an intern that I
brought into a local university

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and Jonas was somebody that had
sent in a great portfolio piece

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to another company.

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They were not able to hire him,
but they basically put the word

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out saying, this audio
guy looks amazing.

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If anybody is looking
for an audio person,

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you should snap him up.

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So that's exactly what I did.

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Then Brendan and Emma are people
that I previously worked with.

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So the lesson to take away here
is, you have to be networking.

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All of these folks were either
people that I knew directly

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or people that knew
somebody that I knew.

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As an Indie developer,
I have no time.

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We've discussed this at length.

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I literally have no time.

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00:08:22,810 --> 00:08:24,480
I am working more
than full time,

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and so I cannot
micromanage somebody,

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I cannot be on somebody's ass
to make sure they're getting

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their work done.

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And so, when I bring
somebody into the team,

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it has to be somebody that
I trust to not only do work,

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but to do amazing work and to be
able to do that independently.

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So, for me, that means working
with folks that I already know,

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that I already
trust, and with folks

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that are highly recommended
to me by people that I trust.

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And nobody else.

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So if you're interested in
working with an Indie company,

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don't sit around waiting for
them to put out job requests.

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You need to be actively
trying to meet these folks.

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Network.

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00:09:02,610 --> 00:09:04,360
So I want to talk a
little bit in detail

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about what it means for
me to hire somebody.

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This is how I do it--
it's not necessarily

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how everybody does it.

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00:09:11,799 --> 00:09:13,340
When I bring somebody
in, I have them

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00:09:13,340 --> 00:09:15,080
sign a work for hire contract.

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00:09:15,080 --> 00:09:17,910
That basically just means
that they do work, I pay them,

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00:09:17,910 --> 00:09:20,730
and my company owns
the work that they do.

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00:09:20,730 --> 00:09:22,520
I then create
separate schedules,

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and that's a tiny
one page document

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00:09:24,430 --> 00:09:28,290
that says, reference all that
other stuff in the contract.

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00:09:28,290 --> 00:09:31,870
Here is what needs to be
done by the contractor.

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00:09:31,870 --> 00:09:33,599
It needs to be
done by this date,

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00:09:33,599 --> 00:09:35,140
and here's what
they're getting paid.

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So it's a very, very
simple document.

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00:09:38,850 --> 00:09:42,050
You can do the payment in
a couple of different ways.

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00:09:42,050 --> 00:09:45,720
So when I first worked with
Luigi, who's our artist,

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00:09:45,720 --> 00:09:46,960
we worked by bundles.

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00:09:46,960 --> 00:09:50,670
So I would say, I need
this list of art assets.

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When do you think you
can get them to me,

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00:09:52,400 --> 00:09:53,920
and what would be
a reasonable price?

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00:09:53,920 --> 00:09:56,128
And we would negotiate both
of those last two things.

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00:09:56,128 --> 00:09:59,210
It was usually
three or four weeks,

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00:09:59,210 --> 00:10:01,100
and we would put that
up in the schedule

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00:10:01,100 --> 00:10:04,190
and then he would go
off and do that work.

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00:10:04,190 --> 00:10:05,810
Right now we've
switched to hourly,

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00:10:05,810 --> 00:10:08,226
just because it made sense
towards the end of the project,

250
00:10:08,226 --> 00:10:11,029
because I would be like, oh,
I need this one particular

251
00:10:11,029 --> 00:10:13,070
tiny little thing that I
completely forgot about,

252
00:10:13,070 --> 00:10:14,986
and that didn't make
sense to do entire bundle

253
00:10:14,986 --> 00:10:16,890
for like $20 worth of work.

254
00:10:16,890 --> 00:10:18,640
So we switched to hourly.

255
00:10:18,640 --> 00:10:20,660
It's also common to
do revenue share.

256
00:10:20,660 --> 00:10:22,680
That could be the
entirety of the payment,

257
00:10:22,680 --> 00:10:26,210
or that can be on top
of hourly payment.

258
00:10:26,210 --> 00:10:27,990
Really depends on who
you're working with

259
00:10:27,990 --> 00:10:30,200
and what make sense for you.

260
00:10:30,200 --> 00:10:33,102
So this is just an
example-- oh my gosh, sorry.

261
00:10:33,102 --> 00:10:34,185
This set up automatically.

262
00:10:34,185 --> 00:10:38,080


263
00:10:38,080 --> 00:10:39,090
Oops, there we go.

264
00:10:39,090 --> 00:10:39,680
OK.

265
00:10:39,680 --> 00:10:44,520
So this is an example of a
bundle that I did with Luigi.

266
00:10:44,520 --> 00:10:46,620
You can see it just
lists in detail

267
00:10:46,620 --> 00:10:49,660
all of the tiny little things
that I needed at that point.

268
00:10:49,660 --> 00:10:51,980
So we ended up doing
four or five big bundles

269
00:10:51,980 --> 00:10:53,590
and then swapped to hourly.

270
00:10:53,590 --> 00:10:55,620
This was about halfway
through the project,

271
00:10:55,620 --> 00:10:58,750
so you can see some things
are on the first strap,

272
00:10:58,750 --> 00:10:59,640
like the world map.

273
00:10:59,640 --> 00:11:02,610
Some things are getting
a lot more detailed,

274
00:11:02,610 --> 00:11:04,230
like the level backgrounds.

275
00:11:04,230 --> 00:11:06,000
But this is it.

276
00:11:06,000 --> 00:11:07,500
A schedule is not
super complicated.

277
00:11:07,500 --> 00:11:09,710
It's just a list of
what needs to be done,

278
00:11:09,710 --> 00:11:12,280
when it needs to
be done by, and how

279
00:11:12,280 --> 00:11:14,865
a person's getting paid for it.

280
00:11:14,865 --> 00:11:17,730
The last thing I want to
talk about is the long tail.

281
00:11:17,730 --> 00:11:21,010
We have this idea, I
think, in Indie development

282
00:11:21,010 --> 00:11:25,120
that you're launch day
needs to be your big day.

283
00:11:25,120 --> 00:11:28,020
Especially in mobile, you see
these graphs where it's like,

284
00:11:28,020 --> 00:11:30,550
launch day the rest of the time.

285
00:11:30,550 --> 00:11:33,320
Those graphs are super scary,
because it means if you're not

286
00:11:33,320 --> 00:11:37,700
making a huge amount of
money on your launch day,

287
00:11:37,700 --> 00:11:39,440
you have absolutely no income.

288
00:11:39,440 --> 00:11:43,060
I think this is 100% the
wrong way to think about it.

289
00:11:43,060 --> 00:11:45,390
When I launched The
Counting Kingdom on Steam,

290
00:11:45,390 --> 00:11:49,650
it sold 35 copies on launch day.

291
00:11:49,650 --> 00:11:50,840
35 copies.

292
00:11:50,840 --> 00:11:54,290
I didn't think that was
possible for a Steam game

293
00:11:54,290 --> 00:11:57,780
to sell that few
copies on launch day.

294
00:11:57,780 --> 00:12:01,020
So that blew my mind, and
I was kind of like, OK,

295
00:12:01,020 --> 00:12:03,570
I need to really rethink
what I'm doing here.

296
00:12:03,570 --> 00:12:04,880
And since then, it's sold well.

297
00:12:04,880 --> 00:12:06,860
It's sold steadily.

298
00:12:06,860 --> 00:12:10,050
I've sold a lot more than
35 copies since then.

299
00:12:10,050 --> 00:12:13,910
But I've had to really flip
my thinking about where

300
00:12:13,910 --> 00:12:15,620
the money is being made.

301
00:12:15,620 --> 00:12:19,420
So the point here is, this
is not a business plan.

302
00:12:19,420 --> 00:12:21,860
Bullet point two has to be
a lot of different things

303
00:12:21,860 --> 00:12:24,716
and it has to be over
a large span of time.

304
00:12:24,716 --> 00:12:26,340
So for The Counting
Kingdom, we started

305
00:12:26,340 --> 00:12:28,120
on Steam and the Humble Store.

306
00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:29,890
We got into a Humble
Weekly bundle, which

307
00:12:29,890 --> 00:12:31,900
was absolutely
phenomenal, and so far,

308
00:12:31,900 --> 00:12:35,800
has been where the biggest chunk
of our money has come from.

309
00:12:35,800 --> 00:12:39,116
Just launched on iOS, and I'm
looking towards the future.

310
00:12:39,116 --> 00:12:40,990
There's a lot of different
things I could do.

311
00:12:40,990 --> 00:12:42,448
I'm considering
porting to Android,

312
00:12:42,448 --> 00:12:44,610
I'm considering trying
to get into schools.

313
00:12:44,610 --> 00:12:46,160
I'm also talking
with other companies

314
00:12:46,160 --> 00:12:48,850
about potentially licensing
The Counting Kingdom

315
00:12:48,850 --> 00:12:51,580
for various opportunities.

316
00:12:51,580 --> 00:12:53,810
This has to be ongoing.

317
00:12:53,810 --> 00:12:55,310
There's the work
of making the game,

318
00:12:55,310 --> 00:12:58,570
and then there's the work of
making money from the game,

319
00:12:58,570 --> 00:13:00,500
and those are two
separate things.

320
00:13:00,500 --> 00:13:03,550
That kind of sucks, but
it takes that much work

321
00:13:03,550 --> 00:13:05,960
to actually make money from
something that you've already

322
00:13:05,960 --> 00:13:08,310
poured your heart and soul into.

323
00:13:08,310 --> 00:13:12,340
But that's just the reality of
the business of making games.

324
00:13:12,340 --> 00:13:15,900
So this is frustrating,
but that's just

325
00:13:15,900 --> 00:13:18,575
something that, again, is a
reality of being any developer.

326
00:13:18,575 --> 00:13:20,970
It's something you
have to be aware of.

327
00:13:20,970 --> 00:13:23,640
So that is all I have for you.

328
00:13:23,640 --> 00:13:27,300
And Michael, come on down.

329
00:13:27,300 --> 00:13:29,630
MICHAEL CARRIER: So my
name is Michael Carrier.

330
00:13:29,630 --> 00:13:33,690
I'm the founder of
Zap Dot, Inc. I also

331
00:13:33,690 --> 00:13:36,200
am one of the co-leaders
of Boston Indies

332
00:13:36,200 --> 00:13:39,130
and the founder of the
Indie Game Collective.

333
00:13:39,130 --> 00:13:42,790
It's a, as Rick mentioned,
a small group of studios

334
00:13:42,790 --> 00:13:46,570
in the Cambridge area
that work together,

335
00:13:46,570 --> 00:13:49,800
and we do a lot of things to try
to help ensure that everybody

336
00:13:49,800 --> 00:13:53,950
is doing some awesome work
and that our products are

337
00:13:53,950 --> 00:13:58,429
coming out really pretty.

338
00:13:58,429 --> 00:13:59,970
Some of the projects
that I've worked

339
00:13:59,970 --> 00:14:03,700
on-- so I started
off at Harmonics

340
00:14:03,700 --> 00:14:07,470
and I worked on a
bunch of titles there.

341
00:14:07,470 --> 00:14:10,170
From there, I did
an apprenticeship

342
00:14:10,170 --> 00:14:14,460
with an MIT alum, [INAUDIBLE]
on the game Fallen Frontier

343
00:14:14,460 --> 00:14:16,430
after he left Bungee.

344
00:14:16,430 --> 00:14:21,400
I worked with the BBC and
a company out in west coast

345
00:14:21,400 --> 00:14:23,780
called Pipeworks for
Dancing With The Stars

346
00:14:23,780 --> 00:14:27,490
free to play online web game.

347
00:14:27,490 --> 00:14:31,124
I worked with some local Indies,
Alchemy Labs on Jack Lumber,

348
00:14:31,124 --> 00:14:33,290
and Dejobaan Studios in a
game called Drop That Beat

349
00:14:33,290 --> 00:14:35,660
Like An Ugly Baby.

350
00:14:35,660 --> 00:14:38,530
Another contract gig for
me was, the bottom left,

351
00:14:38,530 --> 00:14:41,840
it's called Culture
Shock, which was

352
00:14:41,840 --> 00:14:43,310
a game that taught
people who are

353
00:14:43,310 --> 00:14:47,740
being deployed to the Middle
East cultural awareness.

354
00:14:47,740 --> 00:14:50,350
This is really a cool game
for a group of neuroscientists

355
00:14:50,350 --> 00:14:51,830
to try to prove
that games can help

356
00:14:51,830 --> 00:14:54,830
people recover from concussions
effectively and efficiently.

357
00:14:54,830 --> 00:14:57,720
And my two current
projects, [INAUDIBLE],

358
00:14:57,720 --> 00:15:00,200
which is some contract
work and Pleasant Dreams,

359
00:15:00,200 --> 00:15:09,760
which is a digital reboot of
a physical table top game.

360
00:15:09,760 --> 00:15:21,300
Out of these-- one
second-- out of these,

361
00:15:21,300 --> 00:15:24,470
the top four were
employment, and then

362
00:15:24,470 --> 00:15:27,650
Dancing With The Stars,
Culture Shock, [INAUDIBLE]

363
00:15:27,650 --> 00:15:34,620
and this neurologist
game were contract work.

364
00:15:34,620 --> 00:15:36,699
So what I'd like to
do is give everybody

365
00:15:36,699 --> 00:15:38,490
a little bit of context
for the information

366
00:15:38,490 --> 00:15:41,660
that we'll be
talking about today.

367
00:15:41,660 --> 00:15:48,320
There is a differentiation
between AAA and Indie.

368
00:15:48,320 --> 00:15:50,730
I would prefer not to
use that terminology.

369
00:15:50,730 --> 00:15:54,180
I want to talk about big
company versus small company.

370
00:15:54,180 --> 00:15:58,200
Main reason being, with the
tools that are out there today,

371
00:15:58,200 --> 00:16:01,280
AAA and Indie used to be
a description of quality

372
00:16:01,280 --> 00:16:04,650
or subject matter, and I
really think those lines

373
00:16:04,650 --> 00:16:06,010
are becoming blurred.

374
00:16:06,010 --> 00:16:08,800
So talking about largest
to small company really

375
00:16:08,800 --> 00:16:11,370
can encompass the
type of work that you

376
00:16:11,370 --> 00:16:16,230
will be doing at those small
companies or big companies.

377
00:16:16,230 --> 00:16:19,440
Either way, the
direction that you take

378
00:16:19,440 --> 00:16:20,870
is going to be
really challenging

379
00:16:20,870 --> 00:16:22,760
for one reason or another.

380
00:16:22,760 --> 00:16:24,840
So if you work at
a larger company,

381
00:16:24,840 --> 00:16:27,790
it's really important for
you to have a vast amount

382
00:16:27,790 --> 00:16:29,712
of domain knowledge.

383
00:16:29,712 --> 00:16:31,920
It's going to be challenging,
because you're not only

384
00:16:31,920 --> 00:16:34,366
competing with local
talent, but global talent.

385
00:16:34,366 --> 00:16:36,240
There are people from
all over the world that

386
00:16:36,240 --> 00:16:38,020
want to work at these
companies, and these

387
00:16:38,020 --> 00:16:40,100
are some of the
larger companies that

388
00:16:40,100 --> 00:16:43,820
do hire and have hired
in the Boston area.

389
00:16:43,820 --> 00:16:46,990
But if you know the story
behind some of these companies,

390
00:16:46,990 --> 00:16:49,330
there is a lot of
overturn as well.

391
00:16:49,330 --> 00:16:52,620
You end up having
people that come and go

392
00:16:52,620 --> 00:16:55,280
and are laid off from project
to project just because

393
00:16:55,280 --> 00:16:56,760
of the state of
the industry being

394
00:16:56,760 --> 00:17:05,450
more of a project-based industry
that a long-term employment

395
00:17:05,450 --> 00:17:06,589
type of industry.

396
00:17:06,589 --> 00:17:09,420
So not only are you competing
with people all over the world,

397
00:17:09,420 --> 00:17:11,711
but you're also competing
with really bright people who

398
00:17:11,711 --> 00:17:13,349
have had years and
years of experience

399
00:17:13,349 --> 00:17:16,460
at companies like these.

400
00:17:16,460 --> 00:17:19,520
Smaller companies are
slightly different.

401
00:17:19,520 --> 00:17:22,220
You have smaller teams,
you have smaller budgets,

402
00:17:22,220 --> 00:17:24,810
and you have to
do more with less.

403
00:17:24,810 --> 00:17:27,920
Typically, what you do is you
find people doing multiple jobs

404
00:17:27,920 --> 00:17:31,017
to serve a lot of roles
and share the load

405
00:17:31,017 --> 00:17:31,850
as much as they can.

406
00:17:31,850 --> 00:17:34,690


407
00:17:34,690 --> 00:17:37,650
With both of these, both
small and big companies,

408
00:17:37,650 --> 00:17:39,210
the hours are long.

409
00:17:39,210 --> 00:17:41,930
People don't always
respect you for your work,

410
00:17:41,930 --> 00:17:44,669
and unfortunately, the
pay isn't always great.

411
00:17:44,669 --> 00:17:46,710
Typically, you will make
a fraction of the salary

412
00:17:46,710 --> 00:17:51,950
that you'd make with the same
skill set outside the industry.

413
00:17:51,950 --> 00:17:53,480
But you know what?

414
00:17:53,480 --> 00:17:56,150
That doesn't faze me.

415
00:17:56,150 --> 00:17:58,140
I love the challenge.

416
00:17:58,140 --> 00:18:01,310
Games are a really crazy field.

417
00:18:01,310 --> 00:18:04,860
Video games haven't been around
in the public for 50 years,

418
00:18:04,860 --> 00:18:07,410
and it's an incredible
medium already.

419
00:18:07,410 --> 00:18:09,460
You want to think about
this-- the printing

420
00:18:09,460 --> 00:18:15,160
press was released or invented
or became into mass use

421
00:18:15,160 --> 00:18:16,190
in 1450.

422
00:18:16,190 --> 00:18:21,550
It's 564 years later, and now
we have global information

423
00:18:21,550 --> 00:18:25,420
networks and we're complaining
about these e ink displays,

424
00:18:25,420 --> 00:18:28,640
at how bad they are or good they
are at displaying information

425
00:18:28,640 --> 00:18:29,150
to us.

426
00:18:29,150 --> 00:18:32,150
The medium constantly changes
on how that is distributed.

427
00:18:32,150 --> 00:18:33,650
Just imagine where
games can go when

428
00:18:33,650 --> 00:18:34,960
we are so young in this medium.

429
00:18:34,960 --> 00:18:38,030


430
00:18:38,030 --> 00:18:41,810
So I'm really here to talk to
you today about contracting.

431
00:18:41,810 --> 00:18:47,130
It has served as my company's
primary method of revenue

432
00:18:47,130 --> 00:18:49,880
over the past four years.

433
00:18:49,880 --> 00:18:52,330
So there are some really
great benefits of it.

434
00:18:52,330 --> 00:18:54,710
You get to work on
a ton of projects.

435
00:18:54,710 --> 00:18:57,470
You meet a lot of
people, and you learn

436
00:18:57,470 --> 00:18:58,869
a lot about different things.

437
00:18:58,869 --> 00:19:01,160
If you're going to go back
and think about the projects

438
00:19:01,160 --> 00:19:03,280
that I've worked
on, I got to work

439
00:19:03,280 --> 00:19:06,090
on a free to play property
with a really big company who

440
00:19:06,090 --> 00:19:09,762
had a huge marketing budget, and
it was really well-known name--

441
00:19:09,762 --> 00:19:10,720
Dancing With The Stars.

442
00:19:10,720 --> 00:19:14,420
A lot of people know that
TV show, or that property.

443
00:19:14,420 --> 00:19:17,810
In terms of brand
recognition, it's great.

444
00:19:17,810 --> 00:19:19,880
I got to work on a game
with some neurologists

445
00:19:19,880 --> 00:19:21,920
and try to help
show that games have

446
00:19:21,920 --> 00:19:24,790
positive impact in the world,
and that there are hopefully

447
00:19:24,790 --> 00:19:27,900
ways, if the study does
come through positively,

448
00:19:27,900 --> 00:19:31,300
that we can help people
recover from concussions more

449
00:19:31,300 --> 00:19:32,780
effectively.

450
00:19:32,780 --> 00:19:35,479
I got to work on a
game with the army.

451
00:19:35,479 --> 00:19:37,520
Despite what you may think
about our involvement,

452
00:19:37,520 --> 00:19:40,580
if we can help people learn how
to work with each other better,

453
00:19:40,580 --> 00:19:44,639
I think that's a really
awesome thing to be a part of.

454
00:19:44,639 --> 00:19:46,930
Now I'm getting to a point
where people are approaching

455
00:19:46,930 --> 00:19:49,280
me to consult them for the
experience and knowledge

456
00:19:49,280 --> 00:19:52,367
that I've gained over the course
of the past four to six years

457
00:19:52,367 --> 00:19:53,950
that I've been in
the industry so far.

458
00:19:53,950 --> 00:19:56,890


459
00:19:56,890 --> 00:19:59,936
So one thing to keep in
mind, is that the great thing

460
00:19:59,936 --> 00:20:02,560
about consulting and contracting
is that there is a ton of work

461
00:20:02,560 --> 00:20:03,470
out there.

462
00:20:03,470 --> 00:20:06,469
There are plenty of people
with ideas and money,

463
00:20:06,469 --> 00:20:08,760
but they don't necessarily
have the skill or experience

464
00:20:08,760 --> 00:20:12,000
to be able to bring
that to fruition.

465
00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:14,170
Or their ideas were
a bit too large,

466
00:20:14,170 --> 00:20:15,670
and they need some
more people to be

467
00:20:15,670 --> 00:20:19,790
able to make those
ideas come to life.

468
00:20:19,790 --> 00:20:22,406
Sometimes, they just decided
they want to bring someone in

469
00:20:22,406 --> 00:20:23,780
to help them out
with the project

470
00:20:23,780 --> 00:20:24,780
that they're working on.

471
00:20:24,780 --> 00:20:27,140


472
00:20:27,140 --> 00:20:28,910
I would also argue
that contracting,

473
00:20:28,910 --> 00:20:30,380
once you get into
the rhythm of it,

474
00:20:30,380 --> 00:20:33,610
is a very stable way to
make a long-term living

475
00:20:33,610 --> 00:20:36,230
in this industry.

476
00:20:36,230 --> 00:20:38,850
From what I've been
doing by contracting,

477
00:20:38,850 --> 00:20:41,130
I'm expecting and
anticipating the project

478
00:20:41,130 --> 00:20:45,220
to project work that the
industry typically creates.

479
00:20:45,220 --> 00:20:49,260
With the network that I've
been able to create for myself,

480
00:20:49,260 --> 00:20:50,710
I actually feel
very stable that I

481
00:20:50,710 --> 00:20:52,820
will be able to find
something that someone will

482
00:20:52,820 --> 00:20:57,270
be able to recommend me for
whenever a project ends if I

483
00:20:57,270 --> 00:20:59,270
decide to keep contracting.

484
00:20:59,270 --> 00:21:03,170
Ultimately, though, my goal is
not to do contracting forever.

485
00:21:03,170 --> 00:21:04,800
The reason why I
created Zap Dot was

486
00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:08,939
because I wanted to make
and release my own games.

487
00:21:08,939 --> 00:21:10,730
When I started off, it
was important for me

488
00:21:10,730 --> 00:21:12,730
to start generating some
revenue for the company

489
00:21:12,730 --> 00:21:15,010
so that I could
hire people who were

490
00:21:15,010 --> 00:21:18,470
worth the-- to bring people
because they were worth it.

491
00:21:18,470 --> 00:21:20,970
I wanted to be able to pay them.

492
00:21:20,970 --> 00:21:22,820
So after the past
four or five years,

493
00:21:22,820 --> 00:21:25,426
I've been able to gain enough
capital for the company

494
00:21:25,426 --> 00:21:26,800
where Zap Dot will
actually start

495
00:21:26,800 --> 00:21:27,883
working on its own titles.

496
00:21:27,883 --> 00:21:30,195


497
00:21:30,195 --> 00:21:32,570
So I figured I would talk a
little bit about the contract

498
00:21:32,570 --> 00:21:33,810
life cycle.

499
00:21:33,810 --> 00:21:35,730
Very much like
Jenna said, events

500
00:21:35,730 --> 00:21:37,650
are super, super important.

501
00:21:37,650 --> 00:21:40,880
So you'll go to industry events
or you'll go to local meetups,

502
00:21:40,880 --> 00:21:42,860
and there are a ton of
options, especially just

503
00:21:42,860 --> 00:21:46,040
in the Boston area alone.

504
00:21:46,040 --> 00:21:48,770
And you network and
you get to meet people.

505
00:21:48,770 --> 00:21:51,610
The best advice that I can
offer you when you're networking

506
00:21:51,610 --> 00:21:54,530
is, to not network for yourself,
but network for others.

507
00:21:54,530 --> 00:21:57,290
Find ways to make introductions
between different people.

508
00:21:57,290 --> 00:21:59,454
Find ways to get jobs
for other people.

509
00:21:59,454 --> 00:22:01,870
The way that I've been able
to get such an awesome network

510
00:22:01,870 --> 00:22:05,180
that I have right now is by
getting other people jobs.

511
00:22:05,180 --> 00:22:07,990
In doing so, everybody
comes-- a lot of people

512
00:22:07,990 --> 00:22:10,400
will come to me now
for advice or when

513
00:22:10,400 --> 00:22:12,150
they have a project
that needs to be done.

514
00:22:12,150 --> 00:22:14,280
So I become a holder
of information

515
00:22:14,280 --> 00:22:16,790
in terms of the projects
that are available,

516
00:22:16,790 --> 00:22:20,090
which, when my company wants
to pick one of those, I have,

517
00:22:20,090 --> 00:22:23,220
essentially, the pick
of the litter for it.

518
00:22:23,220 --> 00:22:27,289
Also, it's really good to
continually help people also

519
00:22:27,289 --> 00:22:28,580
find stability in the industry.

520
00:22:28,580 --> 00:22:31,180


521
00:22:31,180 --> 00:22:33,860
To illustrate that,
the first job I got

522
00:22:33,860 --> 00:22:36,340
was because I had a conversation
in a floral shop when

523
00:22:36,340 --> 00:22:39,350
I was buying some flowers
for my girlfriend.

524
00:22:39,350 --> 00:22:41,880
The second job was based
of a recommendation,

525
00:22:41,880 --> 00:22:44,920
and the third job was also
based on a recommendation.

526
00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:48,184
Another job was checking the
Boston Indies email list.

527
00:22:48,184 --> 00:22:50,100
And the most recent job,
someone approached me

528
00:22:50,100 --> 00:22:51,475
about doing the
work because they

529
00:22:51,475 --> 00:22:56,250
had heard that I deliver
on time and my work

530
00:22:56,250 --> 00:22:57,895
is pretty high quality.

531
00:22:57,895 --> 00:23:00,555


532
00:23:00,555 --> 00:23:01,930
So let's say you
do find someone.

533
00:23:01,930 --> 00:23:04,590
You find someone and you
want to do work with them,

534
00:23:04,590 --> 00:23:06,850
or they want work being done.

535
00:23:06,850 --> 00:23:09,250
So what you do is, you do
this really weird dance

536
00:23:09,250 --> 00:23:12,090
with the client and you
talk to them for a bit

537
00:23:12,090 --> 00:23:13,814
about what kind of
work they want to do

538
00:23:13,814 --> 00:23:15,230
and what kind of
project they want

539
00:23:15,230 --> 00:23:17,480
to work on, why they want
to involve you in it,

540
00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:21,620
and why you should be
involved in their project.

541
00:23:21,620 --> 00:23:25,310
You either become really
scared about the expectations

542
00:23:25,310 --> 00:23:28,280
that they have or the money that
they have to be able to spend,

543
00:23:28,280 --> 00:23:29,910
or you'll fall in
love with them,

544
00:23:29,910 --> 00:23:32,240
or there'll be some
in-between where

545
00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:34,130
this is a good calculated
decision for you

546
00:23:34,130 --> 00:23:37,925
or your company, and it
makes sense to do it.

547
00:23:37,925 --> 00:23:39,550
From there, you take
those expectations

548
00:23:39,550 --> 00:23:41,580
and you put them down to paper.

549
00:23:41,580 --> 00:23:43,870
Contracts are really,
really important.

550
00:23:43,870 --> 00:23:47,320
Never do any work or have
anybody do any work for you

551
00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:49,330
unless you have them sign
some sort of contract.

552
00:23:49,330 --> 00:23:51,960


553
00:23:51,960 --> 00:23:54,060
Essentially, what these
contracts you do is,

554
00:23:54,060 --> 00:23:57,450
they should manage expectations
for both you and the person

555
00:23:57,450 --> 00:23:58,390
doing work.

556
00:23:58,390 --> 00:24:02,390
What happens when something
goes wrong on either end?

557
00:24:02,390 --> 00:24:05,320
Be very careful with things
like non-disclosure agreements

558
00:24:05,320 --> 00:24:07,040
or non-competes.

559
00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:09,260
I prefer to have all
non-competes written out

560
00:24:09,260 --> 00:24:11,530
of contracts that I have signed.

561
00:24:11,530 --> 00:24:14,800
I've heard of other people
asking for multiples

562
00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:21,410
of their time because the
customer wanted the non-compete

563
00:24:21,410 --> 00:24:22,907
to stick.

564
00:24:22,907 --> 00:24:25,240
One other really important
thing to remember, especially

565
00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:26,615
when you're doing
contracting is,

566
00:24:26,615 --> 00:24:29,410
you have the opportunity to fire
a client as much as they have

567
00:24:29,410 --> 00:24:32,650
the opportunity to fire you.

568
00:24:32,650 --> 00:24:34,067
If people start
going off contract

569
00:24:34,067 --> 00:24:36,316
and they start requesting
things that they didn't have

570
00:24:36,316 --> 00:24:38,820
and they're not following the
rules that you've established

571
00:24:38,820 --> 00:24:42,200
between your relationship,
then understand that you do

572
00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:47,080
have the right to get out
of it if it goes sour.

573
00:24:47,080 --> 00:24:48,740
So you've signed the contract.

574
00:24:48,740 --> 00:24:50,830
Now you just need
to make the game.

575
00:24:50,830 --> 00:24:53,770
Then after you make
the game, you get paid.

576
00:24:53,770 --> 00:24:56,570
Jenna mentioned a bunch of
different types of payment.

577
00:24:56,570 --> 00:24:59,440
You can do hourly
rates-- I've done that.

578
00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:02,330
You can do milestone payments
where you agree, typically,

579
00:25:02,330 --> 00:25:04,604
on two to four weeks of work.

580
00:25:04,604 --> 00:25:06,020
You deliver that
work, and as long

581
00:25:06,020 --> 00:25:09,780
as it is of acceptable
quality, the client

582
00:25:09,780 --> 00:25:11,760
will accept it and then
you the amount of money

583
00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:13,930
that you've worked on.

584
00:25:13,930 --> 00:25:16,150
Or you can do a full
fee for a project.

585
00:25:16,150 --> 00:25:17,659
I've done all three.

586
00:25:17,659 --> 00:25:19,700
I would definitely caution
against doing full fee

587
00:25:19,700 --> 00:25:21,860
for projects, just because--
especially if you're

588
00:25:21,860 --> 00:25:24,370
a perfectionist or the
client starts trying

589
00:25:24,370 --> 00:25:28,130
to add more things-- scope
can creep up over time

590
00:25:28,130 --> 00:25:30,640
and you-- well, typically
for a full project fee,

591
00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:34,330
unless you're very, very good
about your time management,

592
00:25:34,330 --> 00:25:37,580
you'll end up doing more work
than what you charged for.

593
00:25:37,580 --> 00:25:39,500
Sometimes you'll find
out that you need help.

594
00:25:39,500 --> 00:25:41,540
Well, the cycle kind
of starts again.

595
00:25:41,540 --> 00:25:44,170
You've gone to these
events that you people.

596
00:25:44,170 --> 00:25:46,320
You do a little dance
with them to make sure

597
00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:49,320
that they kind of fit
the situation for them.

598
00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:53,300
If you find someone that you
want to be able to work with,

599
00:25:53,300 --> 00:25:55,621
you write up a contract.

600
00:25:55,621 --> 00:25:57,120
You set up expectations
for the work

601
00:25:57,120 --> 00:25:59,280
that they will be coming
on to help you with.

602
00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:01,870
And now, as an
employer of some sort,

603
00:26:01,870 --> 00:26:03,780
you have to worry about
managing two people.

604
00:26:03,780 --> 00:26:05,070
Not only are you
managing yourself

605
00:26:05,070 --> 00:26:06,480
and the work that you are
delivering to a client,

606
00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:09,120
you're making sure that
your contractor or employee

607
00:26:09,120 --> 00:26:11,460
is doing the same thing,
that the client's happy.

608
00:26:11,460 --> 00:26:13,340
Depending on how
many people you add,

609
00:26:13,340 --> 00:26:16,326
it can take a lot of your time.

610
00:26:16,326 --> 00:26:17,700
Over the past
couple of projects,

611
00:26:17,700 --> 00:26:22,400
I have hired help or outsourced
some work for the projects

612
00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:23,150
that I've done.

613
00:26:23,150 --> 00:26:24,660
I've been able to
hire about five

614
00:26:24,660 --> 00:26:28,590
to six people-- not all at once,
and not all for the same thing.

615
00:26:28,590 --> 00:26:31,760
But some of the work that
I've had people come in for

616
00:26:31,760 --> 00:26:36,315
has branched from a couple
hours to a monthly milestones

617
00:26:36,315 --> 00:26:38,043
that I've paid
people to work on.

618
00:26:38,043 --> 00:26:42,030


619
00:26:42,030 --> 00:26:45,644
One really important thing
is that, with contracting,

620
00:26:45,644 --> 00:26:47,560
especially if you're
running your own company,

621
00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:50,140
there are a lot of other
responsibilities that you have.

622
00:26:50,140 --> 00:26:53,950
There are taxes that you
need to worry about paying.

623
00:26:53,950 --> 00:26:57,610
Stuff that normally would be
done if you were an employee

624
00:26:57,610 --> 00:27:00,126
is not your responsibility.

625
00:27:00,126 --> 00:27:02,000
There are definitely a
lot of different laws,

626
00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:04,041
especially in Massachusetts,
about hiring people.

627
00:27:04,041 --> 00:27:06,094
You need to be very
careful that you

628
00:27:06,094 --> 00:27:08,010
are treating your
contractors like contractors

629
00:27:08,010 --> 00:27:08,800
and not employees.

630
00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:10,560
Otherwise, you should be
providing those employees

631
00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:11,059
benefits.

632
00:27:11,059 --> 00:27:14,121


633
00:27:14,121 --> 00:27:15,620
And then that's
also the same thing,

634
00:27:15,620 --> 00:27:17,235
to make sure that the
people that are hiring you

635
00:27:17,235 --> 00:27:18,609
are treating you
like an employee

636
00:27:18,609 --> 00:27:21,610
or expecting you to
act like an employee.

637
00:27:21,610 --> 00:27:24,010
So make sure that you
pay attention to the work

638
00:27:24,010 --> 00:27:26,520
that you're doing and
really round yourself out

639
00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:29,140
on the rules and
regulations around work.

640
00:27:29,140 --> 00:27:32,451


641
00:27:32,451 --> 00:27:32,950
That's it.

642
00:27:32,950 --> 00:27:37,040
So I wanted to open the
floor for Jenna and I

643
00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:41,180
to let you jump in and
talk about any questions.

644
00:27:41,180 --> 00:27:46,080
[APPLAUSE]

645
00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:47,415
MICHAEL CARRIER: Yes?

646
00:27:47,415 --> 00:27:48,040
AUDIENCE: Yeah.

647
00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:51,470
So do you have any advice
for marketing new games?

648
00:27:51,470 --> 00:27:54,165
Because I think that's a thing
that a lot of [INAUDIBLE] how

649
00:27:54,165 --> 00:27:58,195
do you promote your product
and where do you do it?

650
00:27:58,195 --> 00:27:59,570
JENNA HOSTEIN: So
I've been doing

651
00:27:59,570 --> 00:28:01,227
a lot of ongoing social media.

652
00:28:01,227 --> 00:28:03,310
We have a Little World
Interactive Twitter account

653
00:28:03,310 --> 00:28:04,620
and Facebook page.

654
00:28:04,620 --> 00:28:10,450
A lot of it depends very much on
the type of game you're making.

655
00:28:10,450 --> 00:28:13,434
The best approach to it is
a slow drip type of thing.

656
00:28:13,434 --> 00:28:14,975
You don't get a week
away from launch

657
00:28:14,975 --> 00:28:18,640
and go, OK, time to market this.

658
00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:21,550
One thing that I've seen
work very successfully is,

659
00:28:21,550 --> 00:28:24,480
we have somebody else
working in the IGC who's

660
00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:27,300
creating a first
person dodge ball game,

661
00:28:27,300 --> 00:28:29,130
and it's just wacky and fun.

662
00:28:29,130 --> 00:28:32,520
So he's had huge success on
Reddit and with Live Streamer.

663
00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:34,310
So he's an early
access, but he's already

664
00:28:34,310 --> 00:28:36,630
been very, very
successful because he's

665
00:28:36,630 --> 00:28:38,980
been able to tap into
those communities.

666
00:28:38,980 --> 00:28:41,970
It's a lot of, what
companies can you tap into?

667
00:28:41,970 --> 00:28:44,650
How do you reach those folks?

668
00:28:44,650 --> 00:28:48,330
Then going to as many events
as you can afford slash

669
00:28:48,330 --> 00:28:49,570
have time to.

670
00:28:49,570 --> 00:28:54,000
In the past year, I've
exhibited at probably

671
00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:58,440
a dozen different events-- some
really big, some really small.

672
00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:02,510
But that has been crucial
to meeting players in person

673
00:29:02,510 --> 00:29:04,530
and also to meeting
the journalists

674
00:29:04,530 --> 00:29:06,200
that attend those
events as well.

675
00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:08,750
So definitely
approach it as a very

676
00:29:08,750 --> 00:29:11,390
ongoing got to put in a little
bit of effort every week

677
00:29:11,390 --> 00:29:12,280
type thing.

678
00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:14,050
MICHAEL CARRIER: Yeah.

679
00:29:14,050 --> 00:29:17,320
Marketing should be a role
on itself on your project.

680
00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:19,360
So very many people
will leave it

681
00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:21,640
towards the end, like Jenna
mentioned in her talk,

682
00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:24,020
or not do it all and just
kind of expect people

683
00:29:24,020 --> 00:29:26,147
to flock to your game
after you've released it.

684
00:29:26,147 --> 00:29:29,280


685
00:29:29,280 --> 00:29:32,242
The other thing is, also as
Jenna mentioned in her talk,

686
00:29:32,242 --> 00:29:33,700
is that marketing
is something that

687
00:29:33,700 --> 00:29:36,990
needs to start before
your project has launched

688
00:29:36,990 --> 00:29:38,930
and continue after
it has launched.

689
00:29:38,930 --> 00:29:41,570


690
00:29:41,570 --> 00:29:45,780
The more you can
kind of interweave it

691
00:29:45,780 --> 00:29:50,210
into your game and the
entire development process,

692
00:29:50,210 --> 00:29:52,669
the better it will be, the
more people will know about.

693
00:29:52,669 --> 00:29:54,710
The objective is just to
get the most people know

694
00:29:54,710 --> 00:29:56,080
about your title as possible.

695
00:29:56,080 --> 00:29:57,690
JENNA HOSTEIN: And to add one
last thing to that-- the way

696
00:29:57,690 --> 00:29:59,390
that I try to
approach social media

697
00:29:59,390 --> 00:30:02,130
is to give people something
that they're excited to share.

698
00:30:02,130 --> 00:30:05,817
So if you're just like, the
game's still on the store--

699
00:30:05,817 --> 00:30:08,150
nobody's going to care about
that tweet or that Facebook

700
00:30:08,150 --> 00:30:09,030
post.

701
00:30:09,030 --> 00:30:11,450
But we do a lot of
cute little cartoons

702
00:30:11,450 --> 00:30:14,260
of the characters from
the game, share a lot

703
00:30:14,260 --> 00:30:16,020
of reviews, a lot
of testimonials

704
00:30:16,020 --> 00:30:18,730
from parents and teachers.

705
00:30:18,730 --> 00:30:22,600
The NASA online
presence is phenomenal.

706
00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:25,000
If you want to see how
to do social media well,

707
00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:27,200
follow the NASA Twitter feed.

708
00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:29,849
It's seriously
astonishingly good.

709
00:30:29,849 --> 00:30:31,390
They just did
something the other day

710
00:30:31,390 --> 00:30:35,250
where they have a new upcoming
mission called Orion, I think.

711
00:30:35,250 --> 00:30:37,270
And they did the ABCs of Orion.

712
00:30:37,270 --> 00:30:40,660
So they did 26 tweets-- one for
each letter-- and each tweet

713
00:30:40,660 --> 00:30:46,630
had this beautiful graphic
image of like, A for-- I

714
00:30:46,630 --> 00:30:49,400
don't remember, I didn't
look it at all of them.

715
00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:51,220
But it was very, very clever.

716
00:30:51,220 --> 00:30:54,860
I ended up re-tweeting
the letters, S-P-A-C-E,

717
00:30:54,860 --> 00:30:57,140
just because that
made me feel clever.

718
00:30:57,140 --> 00:30:59,620
But they got me to re-tweet
five of their tweets.

719
00:30:59,620 --> 00:31:01,600
That's a win for them.

720
00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:04,470
So little things like that,
you have to think about,

721
00:31:04,470 --> 00:31:06,790
what content can you
make that other people

722
00:31:06,790 --> 00:31:10,830
are going to be really excited
to share with their networks?

723
00:31:10,830 --> 00:31:11,630
Yes?

724
00:31:11,630 --> 00:31:13,650
AUDIENCE: What's the
street off of [INAUDIBLE]

725
00:31:13,650 --> 00:31:16,820
and Massachusetts right now?

726
00:31:16,820 --> 00:31:21,910
I know that there was some
stuff going to state legislature

727
00:31:21,910 --> 00:31:24,580
about whether that's
actually enforceable.

728
00:31:24,580 --> 00:31:25,730
MICHAEL CARRIER: Sure.

729
00:31:25,730 --> 00:31:26,880
I've heard about that.

730
00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:30,950
I don't think it's
completely unenforceable yet.

731
00:31:30,950 --> 00:31:33,425
I don't think that
that's passed to make

732
00:31:33,425 --> 00:31:34,550
non-competes unenforceable.

733
00:31:34,550 --> 00:31:35,946
AUDIENCE: So there's debate?

734
00:31:35,946 --> 00:31:36,863
MICHAEL CARRIER: Yeah.

735
00:31:36,863 --> 00:31:39,196
JENNA HOSTEIN: Yeah, that's
a really good point, though.

736
00:31:39,196 --> 00:31:42,170
You have to look very carefully
at any contracts that you sign.

737
00:31:42,170 --> 00:31:45,040
A lot of companies will put
wording in there-- well,

738
00:31:45,040 --> 00:31:46,710
studios will put
wording in there

739
00:31:46,710 --> 00:31:49,650
that they own anything you
make regardless of whether you

740
00:31:49,650 --> 00:31:51,682
make it at work or at home.

741
00:31:51,682 --> 00:31:53,140
So especially if
you're someone who

742
00:31:53,140 --> 00:31:57,850
likes working on side projects,
that can be very dangerous.

743
00:31:57,850 --> 00:31:59,226
So just something
to be aware of.

744
00:31:59,226 --> 00:32:00,600
MICHAEL CARRIER:
Especially ideas

745
00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:03,076
that you've come up with during
working on their project.

746
00:32:03,076 --> 00:32:06,080


747
00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:11,770
There can be a large--
the more vague they are,

748
00:32:11,770 --> 00:32:13,882
the more dangerous it is to you.

749
00:32:13,882 --> 00:32:18,256


750
00:32:18,256 --> 00:32:20,686
AUDIENCE: We have
another question.

751
00:32:20,686 --> 00:32:23,620
AUDIENCE: Have either of you
worked with either state grants

752
00:32:23,620 --> 00:32:26,720
or small business
grants-- organizations

753
00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:33,040
that basically give money
for help for new companies?

754
00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:36,484
What's the experience
like working some projects

755
00:32:36,484 --> 00:32:37,781
if you have?

756
00:32:37,781 --> 00:32:39,030
JENNA HOSTEIN: I have not yet.

757
00:32:39,030 --> 00:32:42,490
That's something I'm actively
looking into for the next game.

758
00:32:42,490 --> 00:32:43,990
The thing that's
holding me back is,

759
00:32:43,990 --> 00:32:47,024
it looks like a lot of work in
a subject area I don't know.

760
00:32:47,024 --> 00:32:48,440
I don't know how
to write a grant,

761
00:32:48,440 --> 00:32:52,310
so that's something I would have
to learn for a shot at money.

762
00:32:52,310 --> 00:32:58,880
So that's what's had we
not pursue that so far.

763
00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:01,530
I'm going to be looking into
education-specific grants,

764
00:33:01,530 --> 00:33:04,113
which I think I would just have
a better shot at, because it's

765
00:33:04,113 --> 00:33:05,510
a more narrow field.

766
00:33:05,510 --> 00:33:09,420
But-- not yet, but maybe.

767
00:33:09,420 --> 00:33:11,120
MICHAEL CARRIER: The
neuroscientist game

768
00:33:11,120 --> 00:33:14,350
that I worked on
was funded in part,

769
00:33:14,350 --> 00:33:18,140
I think, by a grant
of the National

770
00:33:18,140 --> 00:33:19,530
Institute of Health-- NIH.

771
00:33:19,530 --> 00:33:20,363
AUDIENCE: I got you.

772
00:33:20,363 --> 00:33:22,152


773
00:33:22,152 --> 00:33:23,610
JENNA HOSTEIN:
Yeah, and I've heard

774
00:33:23,610 --> 00:33:26,320
of a few Indies who are
working with institutions

775
00:33:26,320 --> 00:33:28,150
who have gotten grant money.

776
00:33:28,150 --> 00:33:29,780
But I don't know
of too many Indies

777
00:33:29,780 --> 00:33:32,650
who have gotten grant money on
their own in the United States.

778
00:33:32,650 --> 00:33:35,850
So other countries like
Canada and Australia--

779
00:33:35,850 --> 00:33:37,850
though, I think, Australia--
maybe not anymore--

780
00:33:37,850 --> 00:33:40,840
how government-funded
grants for the arts,

781
00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:42,816
so they include games in that.

782
00:33:42,816 --> 00:33:45,510
But we do not, unfortunately.

783
00:33:45,510 --> 00:33:47,411
I would love some
government money.

784
00:33:47,411 --> 00:33:49,660
AUDIENCE: How common is it
for studios to be acquired,

785
00:33:49,660 --> 00:33:52,500
and is that something
they target?

786
00:33:52,500 --> 00:33:56,400
MICHAEL CARRIER: So
I would say, it's

787
00:33:56,400 --> 00:33:58,065
uncommon at a smaller level.

788
00:33:58,065 --> 00:34:00,640


789
00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:03,690
Definitely, the way that you're
going to make money as a studio

790
00:34:03,690 --> 00:34:05,400
is not from an exit
strategy of being

791
00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:07,630
purchased by a larger company.

792
00:34:07,630 --> 00:34:10,560
It's more along the
lines of the revenue

793
00:34:10,560 --> 00:34:12,560
that you'll be making
from either your contracts

794
00:34:12,560 --> 00:34:15,993
or the profits from your game.

795
00:34:15,993 --> 00:34:18,159
That being said, some
companies have been purchased.

796
00:34:18,159 --> 00:34:21,440
I know one of the
other subcontractors

797
00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:24,989
I worked with Dancing With The
Stars was purchased by a larger

798
00:34:24,989 --> 00:34:26,070
company.

799
00:34:26,070 --> 00:34:29,570
I know that Amazon has purchased
a few game companies when

800
00:34:29,570 --> 00:34:33,960
they were launching the
Kindle to try to bring games

801
00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:37,460
in for their platform.

802
00:34:37,460 --> 00:34:42,059
So it's not impossible, but it's
definitely not an exit strategy

803
00:34:42,059 --> 00:34:43,600
that most people
would start a studio

804
00:34:43,600 --> 00:34:44,969
with the expectation of having.

805
00:34:44,969 --> 00:34:46,760
JENNA HOSTEIN: Yeah,
and there's definitely

806
00:34:46,760 --> 00:34:51,870
a group of Indie studios
who are generally

807
00:34:51,870 --> 00:34:55,409
between 6 to 12 people and
they have an actual CEO

808
00:34:55,409 --> 00:34:58,350
who can go out and raise money.

809
00:34:58,350 --> 00:35:00,520
Those are Indie in
the sense that they're

810
00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:04,140
small and self-owned and
independently publishing,

811
00:35:04,140 --> 00:35:06,690
but it's kind of a
different class of Indie,

812
00:35:06,690 --> 00:35:09,420
because they can be raising
potentially millions of dollars

813
00:35:09,420 --> 00:35:10,380
to fund their games.

814
00:35:10,380 --> 00:35:12,296
So those are the types
of companies that would

815
00:35:12,296 --> 00:35:14,310
be most likely to be purchased.

816
00:35:14,310 --> 00:35:17,360
Little Worlds Interactive
is just me and my games,

817
00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:21,360
and so if somebody were
to purchase my company,

818
00:35:21,360 --> 00:35:24,820
they would just be
hiring me, basically,

819
00:35:24,820 --> 00:35:27,450
and like, purchasing my games.

820
00:35:27,450 --> 00:35:30,620
So that's probably not something
that's going to happen,

821
00:35:30,620 --> 00:35:33,837
though it's not
unheard of entirely.

822
00:35:33,837 --> 00:35:35,920
MICHAEL CARRIER: And I
guess a tangential approach

823
00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:37,710
that you could have-- that
is, actually taking your games

824
00:35:37,710 --> 00:35:39,650
and licensing them out
for other properties.

825
00:35:39,650 --> 00:35:43,500


826
00:35:43,500 --> 00:35:44,452
Yes?

827
00:35:44,452 --> 00:35:47,100
AUDIENCE: How long were
you guys in the industry

828
00:35:47,100 --> 00:35:49,910
before starting to
do your own thing?

829
00:35:49,910 --> 00:35:52,290
JENNA HOSTEIN: So I
was in the industry

830
00:35:52,290 --> 00:35:53,850
for-- it depends
on what you count.

831
00:35:53,850 --> 00:35:57,370
So, grad school for two years
and working for four years,

832
00:35:57,370 --> 00:35:59,717
and then I've been
an Indie for two.

833
00:35:59,717 --> 00:36:01,300
MICHAEL CARRIER: I
worked at Harmonics

834
00:36:01,300 --> 00:36:06,170
for just under two years before
I started doing consulting.

835
00:36:06,170 --> 00:36:12,190
The Culture Shock game was
my first project out of it.

836
00:36:12,190 --> 00:36:14,440
JENNA HOSTEIN: A lot of
people-- just to add onto that

837
00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:17,710
and then look at you up
there-- a lot of people

838
00:36:17,710 --> 00:36:20,090
go straight from
undergrad to Indie,

839
00:36:20,090 --> 00:36:22,090
and that's a totally
valid approach.

840
00:36:22,090 --> 00:36:25,090
But there is also so much
to be learned in a studio.

841
00:36:25,090 --> 00:36:27,760
Even if that is not
your ideal environment--

842
00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:31,470
it certainly wasn't for
me-- but I regularly

843
00:36:31,470 --> 00:36:35,010
use things that I learned in
my time working at a studio.

844
00:36:35,010 --> 00:36:39,040
So I wouldn't necessarily
recommend just

845
00:36:39,040 --> 00:36:41,180
going directly Indie
straight from undergrad.

846
00:36:41,180 --> 00:36:43,430
MICHAEL CARRIER: And this
is part of a different talk,

847
00:36:43,430 --> 00:36:48,550
but-- I didn't go into that.

848
00:36:48,550 --> 00:36:50,387
But it's a bad idea,
just because there

849
00:36:50,387 --> 00:36:52,470
are a lot of mistakes that
you'll make on your own

850
00:36:52,470 --> 00:36:54,761
that you could have learned
from a larger company who's

851
00:36:54,761 --> 00:36:57,600
already made those mistakes
and can teach you better ways.

852
00:36:57,600 --> 00:36:59,433
Not that they'll have
all the right answers,

853
00:36:59,433 --> 00:37:04,180
but-- and it's not to say
that you won't be successful

854
00:37:04,180 --> 00:37:07,030
if you were to do it
right out of school.

855
00:37:07,030 --> 00:37:08,752
It's just much harder to hit.

856
00:37:08,752 --> 00:37:10,676
AUDIENCE: I was just
wondering, Jenna--

857
00:37:10,676 --> 00:37:14,374
what did you work on
before you became an Indie?

858
00:37:14,374 --> 00:37:16,207
What were you doing,
or what was grad school

859
00:37:16,207 --> 00:37:17,900
and then after that experience?

860
00:37:17,900 --> 00:37:19,316
JENNA HOSTEIN: So
after undergrad,

861
00:37:19,316 --> 00:37:22,180
I worked at a local startup
called Hangout Industries

862
00:37:22,180 --> 00:37:25,930
and we were making one of the
original 3D virtual worlds.

863
00:37:25,930 --> 00:37:31,610
So it was meant to be a social
chill place for teen girls.

864
00:37:31,610 --> 00:37:33,636
It crashed and burned hard.

865
00:37:33,636 --> 00:37:35,510
Most of the lessons I
learned at that company

866
00:37:35,510 --> 00:37:38,770
were how not to do the
things we were trying to do,

867
00:37:38,770 --> 00:37:39,810
which is valuable.

868
00:37:39,810 --> 00:37:41,250
Which is a very valuable lesson.

869
00:37:41,250 --> 00:37:42,985
So then I went to
Indiana University

870
00:37:42,985 --> 00:37:45,900
and got my master's
degree in game design,

871
00:37:45,900 --> 00:37:48,780
and then came back here and
worked at Stomp Games, which

872
00:37:48,780 --> 00:37:50,390
was formerly Tencent Boston.

873
00:37:50,390 --> 00:37:55,850
We did Robot Rising-- and
that was a diablo-esque game

874
00:37:55,850 --> 00:37:57,580
with robots on Facebook.

875
00:37:57,580 --> 00:37:59,420
So I've kind of bounced
all over the place.

876
00:37:59,420 --> 00:38:02,350
I've made mobile titles,
I've made Facebook titles.

877
00:38:02,350 --> 00:38:05,830
I had an internship at Turbines
where I've worked on MMOs.

878
00:38:05,830 --> 00:38:08,710
And like I was saying before,
that experience really

879
00:38:08,710 --> 00:38:10,880
has just given me a breadth
of knowledge that I've

880
00:38:10,880 --> 00:38:13,590
been able to apply to Indies.

881
00:38:13,590 --> 00:38:15,404
AUDIENCE: So a number
of the other people

882
00:38:15,404 --> 00:38:17,172
we brought into class
were talking a little bit

883
00:38:17,172 --> 00:38:18,550
about the internships
that they had

884
00:38:18,550 --> 00:38:19,758
[INAUDIBLE] larger companies.

885
00:38:19,758 --> 00:38:21,430
Can you talk a little
bit about-- so you

886
00:38:21,430 --> 00:38:24,657
mentioned you used an intern
for your process, Jenna.

887
00:38:24,657 --> 00:38:26,970
I forget if you
mentioned [INAUDIBLE].

888
00:38:26,970 --> 00:38:29,270
MICHAEL CARRIER: I have
not used interns yet,

889
00:38:29,270 --> 00:38:31,607
but it's something that
I am very excited about.

890
00:38:31,607 --> 00:38:33,190
AUDIENCE: So can you
talk a little bit

891
00:38:33,190 --> 00:38:34,915
about how it works
for your small studio

892
00:38:34,915 --> 00:38:36,290
and what the
experiences might be

893
00:38:36,290 --> 00:38:37,998
for being an intern
at one of you studios

894
00:38:37,998 --> 00:38:39,167
compared to a larger studio?

895
00:38:39,167 --> 00:38:40,000
JENNA HOSTEIN: Sure.

896
00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:43,500
So the intern that I
worked with was Sam.

897
00:38:43,500 --> 00:38:48,710
He was an animator, and he went
to school at a local animation

898
00:38:48,710 --> 00:38:50,640
school, I don't remember
what it was called--

899
00:38:50,640 --> 00:38:52,680
and I knew one of
the teachers there.

900
00:38:52,680 --> 00:38:55,160
As part of their
graduate requirements--

901
00:38:55,160 --> 00:38:57,370
I think they called
it a co-op-- they just

902
00:38:57,370 --> 00:38:59,240
needed to put in a
certain number of hours

903
00:38:59,240 --> 00:39:00,345
with a local studio.

904
00:39:00,345 --> 00:39:01,970
The expectation was
that it was unpaid,

905
00:39:01,970 --> 00:39:04,590
because they were basically
getting course credit for it.

906
00:39:04,590 --> 00:39:08,400
So for me, it was a
risk-free situation.

907
00:39:08,400 --> 00:39:11,027
Like, basically, I could get
somebody to do art for me

908
00:39:11,027 --> 00:39:13,360
for free, but they were getting
something out of it too,

909
00:39:13,360 --> 00:39:14,901
so I didn't have to
feel too horribly

910
00:39:14,901 --> 00:39:16,670
guilty about not paying them.

911
00:39:16,670 --> 00:39:18,210
And it worked out phenomenally.

912
00:39:18,210 --> 00:39:19,960
So one of the big
differences with working

913
00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:22,280
with an Indie versus
a large studio

914
00:39:22,280 --> 00:39:24,870
is that, I basically
said to him,

915
00:39:24,870 --> 00:39:27,250
I need animation in my game.

916
00:39:27,250 --> 00:39:29,640
If you could do that,
please, that would be great.

917
00:39:29,640 --> 00:39:33,320
So he did all of the animation
in The Counting Kingdom,

918
00:39:33,320 --> 00:39:35,630
first as an internship, and
then as a paid contractor

919
00:39:35,630 --> 00:39:37,420
down the road.

920
00:39:37,420 --> 00:39:40,510
So he got a massive
amount of responsibility.

921
00:39:40,510 --> 00:39:42,680
The only door art direction
I gave him was, like,

922
00:39:42,680 --> 00:39:46,710
make it cute, but also scary a
little bit, but not too scary.

923
00:39:46,710 --> 00:39:50,220
So he had just a huge
amount of creative control.

924
00:39:50,220 --> 00:39:52,820
The downside to that was,
we all worked remotely,

925
00:39:52,820 --> 00:39:56,942
and so I saw him maybe
once every couple of weeks.

926
00:39:56,942 --> 00:39:58,400
But we stayed in
touch to make sure

927
00:39:58,400 --> 00:40:01,160
that he knew what was
going on, I was going on.

928
00:40:01,160 --> 00:40:02,710
So at a larger
studio, he would have

929
00:40:02,710 --> 00:40:04,430
more face-to-face
experience, but be

930
00:40:04,430 --> 00:40:07,860
working on a much
smaller slice of the pie.

931
00:40:07,860 --> 00:40:11,030
Given that Indie
budgets are zero,

932
00:40:11,030 --> 00:40:15,141
basically, I would not be able
to bring in a paid internship

933
00:40:15,141 --> 00:40:15,640
intern.

934
00:40:15,640 --> 00:40:19,510
As much as I would like to,
it's just not a reality.

935
00:40:19,510 --> 00:40:21,590
If I'm paying
somebody money, I have

936
00:40:21,590 --> 00:40:23,690
to know that they are
going to be able to produce

937
00:40:23,690 --> 00:40:25,390
incredibly high quality work.

938
00:40:25,390 --> 00:40:27,100
So unless you're
very, very cheap

939
00:40:27,100 --> 00:40:31,160
and you already have an
astonishingly good portfolio,

940
00:40:31,160 --> 00:40:33,312
it's not something I can afford.

941
00:40:33,312 --> 00:40:35,520
MICHAEL CARRIER: I would
say one of the major reasons

942
00:40:35,520 --> 00:40:37,940
why we haven't brought
in-- why Zap Dot hasn't

943
00:40:37,940 --> 00:40:40,770
brought in any interns right
now is for the same reason.

944
00:40:40,770 --> 00:40:43,890
I would want to try
to pay something,

945
00:40:43,890 --> 00:40:47,760
and I've not been able
to be in a position

946
00:40:47,760 --> 00:40:49,730
where I could bring
someone in to give them

947
00:40:49,730 --> 00:40:53,090
a specific set of tasks
to be able to work,

948
00:40:53,090 --> 00:40:56,900
or to have a project that
is ready to do research

949
00:40:56,900 --> 00:40:57,770
and development.

950
00:40:57,770 --> 00:41:02,990
I think one thing that
is great for interns

951
00:41:02,990 --> 00:41:04,820
that I'm very interested
in is actually

952
00:41:04,820 --> 00:41:09,030
having them do prototypes to
test ideas that the company has

953
00:41:09,030 --> 00:41:12,724
for future plans and to
get a good feel for that.

954
00:41:12,724 --> 00:41:14,140
Because I think
it could encompass

955
00:41:14,140 --> 00:41:16,681
lot of things that are great
for interns-- being able to have

956
00:41:16,681 --> 00:41:18,740
a project, being able
to deliver on things,

957
00:41:18,740 --> 00:41:21,510
and then also being
able to have something

958
00:41:21,510 --> 00:41:24,180
that may have some
progress going forward

959
00:41:24,180 --> 00:41:25,430
in a project that is released.

960
00:41:25,430 --> 00:41:26,971
JENNA HOSTEIN: That
being said, a lot

961
00:41:26,971 --> 00:41:29,390
of times, we think about
internships as kind of an all

962
00:41:29,390 --> 00:41:30,510
or nothing type thing.

963
00:41:30,510 --> 00:41:33,070
But a lot of us
could use somebody

964
00:41:33,070 --> 00:41:36,320
a couple of hours a week to help
out with things here or there.

965
00:41:36,320 --> 00:41:39,930
So if you genuinely are looking
for the experience-- and again,

966
00:41:39,930 --> 00:41:42,969
I hate not paying people--
but if you do just

967
00:41:42,969 --> 00:41:45,010
want some experience
working with an Indie studio

968
00:41:45,010 --> 00:41:48,262
and you're willing to give just
a couple hours a week, come

969
00:41:48,262 --> 00:41:48,970
to Boston Indies.

970
00:41:48,970 --> 00:41:51,970
Comes to Boston Unity Group
where we're all there.

971
00:41:51,970 --> 00:41:54,090
Come talk about the projects
you're interested in

972
00:41:54,090 --> 00:41:56,030
and where you might be
interested in helping.

973
00:41:56,030 --> 00:41:58,820
MICHAEL CARRIER: And those
things can turn into paid work

974
00:41:58,820 --> 00:42:01,240
as well, as Jenna's intern did.

975
00:42:01,240 --> 00:42:04,537


976
00:42:04,537 --> 00:42:06,421
PROFESSOR: Any last questions?

977
00:42:06,421 --> 00:42:07,762
Three or four.

978
00:42:07,762 --> 00:42:09,762
AUDIENCE: So both of you
are located at the IGC,

979
00:42:09,762 --> 00:42:13,680
but the impression I'm getting
is that not all the people

980
00:42:13,680 --> 00:42:17,718
you work with are physically
in the IGC [INAUDIBLE].

981
00:42:17,718 --> 00:42:19,972
Can we talk about
how you balance that?

982
00:42:19,972 --> 00:42:22,065
And I guess [INAUDIBLE]
the whole communications

983
00:42:22,065 --> 00:42:28,639
part of it, but what does that
work flow look like with some

984
00:42:28,639 --> 00:42:30,347
of your people right
next to you and some

985
00:42:30,347 --> 00:42:31,993
of those people on Skype?

986
00:42:31,993 --> 00:42:32,993
JENNA HOSTEIN: Go ahead.

987
00:42:32,993 --> 00:42:34,917
MICHAEL CARRIER: Want
me to go for that one?

988
00:42:34,917 --> 00:42:37,569
JENNA HOSTEIN: Go ahead.

989
00:42:37,569 --> 00:42:39,110
MICHAEL CARRIER:
Many of the projects

990
00:42:39,110 --> 00:42:41,300
that I've done have
been remote work.

991
00:42:41,300 --> 00:42:43,470
When I was doing
Dancing With The Stars,

992
00:42:43,470 --> 00:42:45,010
that was a bunch of people.

993
00:42:45,010 --> 00:42:47,270
So New Hampshire,
Oregon and Florida.

994
00:42:47,270 --> 00:42:50,200


995
00:42:50,200 --> 00:42:54,180
Jack Lumber was
Manitoba, Canada.

996
00:42:54,180 --> 00:42:57,470
Then my apartment,
and then Alex's

997
00:42:57,470 --> 00:42:59,470
apartment as well, before
we had the opportunity

998
00:42:59,470 --> 00:43:00,717
to work together.

999
00:43:00,717 --> 00:43:03,050
Typically what you need when
you're working remotely is,

1000
00:43:03,050 --> 00:43:05,990
you need a couple of things that
are set in stone, essentially.

1001
00:43:05,990 --> 00:43:08,534
You need a schedule, you need
deadlines that people actually

1002
00:43:08,534 --> 00:43:11,075
make, and you need to make sure
that you have the people that

1003
00:43:11,075 --> 00:43:13,470
are working on those projects
be very, very good at time

1004
00:43:13,470 --> 00:43:17,010
management in the sense that
they know they have work to do.

1005
00:43:17,010 --> 00:43:20,110
They don't necessarily need to
have co-workers working around

1006
00:43:20,110 --> 00:43:22,090
them.

1007
00:43:22,090 --> 00:43:25,960
So what you find is, you find
a lot of tools being reused.

1008
00:43:25,960 --> 00:43:28,910
So Google Docs for
shared collaboration,

1009
00:43:28,910 --> 00:43:35,010
Trello for task management,
and then Skype for group chats,

1010
00:43:35,010 --> 00:43:35,530
I think.

1011
00:43:35,530 --> 00:43:38,030
Or Google-- we've done
Google Hangouts as well

1012
00:43:38,030 --> 00:43:39,906
for different projects.

1013
00:43:39,906 --> 00:43:41,280
But essentially,
having something

1014
00:43:41,280 --> 00:43:43,910
that allows the team to
communicate with each other

1015
00:43:43,910 --> 00:43:45,490
and knowing what
the expectations

1016
00:43:45,490 --> 00:43:48,260
are throughout the project.

1017
00:43:48,260 --> 00:43:50,300
Especially when the
contracting work is remote.

1018
00:43:50,300 --> 00:43:54,360
Like, I'm going to do the work
because I want to get paid.

1019
00:43:54,360 --> 00:43:55,860
I guess it's just
a matter of making

1020
00:43:55,860 --> 00:43:58,980
sure you have really good work
ethic and a schedule that you

1021
00:43:58,980 --> 00:44:01,654
stick to or update
as things change.

1022
00:44:01,654 --> 00:44:03,070
JENNA HOSTEIN:
Yeah, it definitely

1023
00:44:03,070 --> 00:44:04,720
varies from person to person.

1024
00:44:04,720 --> 00:44:06,990
But having the right tools
to make your life easier

1025
00:44:06,990 --> 00:44:07,570
is crucial.

1026
00:44:07,570 --> 00:44:11,280
So I'm on Skype all the time,
and I also use BitTorrent Sync,

1027
00:44:11,280 --> 00:44:13,280
I think is what it's
called-- where basically, I

1028
00:44:13,280 --> 00:44:16,550
have a shared folder
with my contractors.

1029
00:44:16,550 --> 00:44:18,907
Any time they update a
file on their computer,

1030
00:44:18,907 --> 00:44:20,240
it'll be updated on my computer.

1031
00:44:20,240 --> 00:44:21,820
So it's just a
very, very easy way

1032
00:44:21,820 --> 00:44:24,549
make sure we have the most
recently updated files,

1033
00:44:24,549 --> 00:44:26,090
and don't have to
keep renaming them,

1034
00:44:26,090 --> 00:44:29,266
like, final-- final two--
final, really final.

1035
00:44:29,266 --> 00:44:30,640
It just keeps all
nice and clear.

1036
00:44:30,640 --> 00:44:33,534
So having the right tools--
just as a few examples,

1037
00:44:33,534 --> 00:44:34,950
because that'll
probably be easier

1038
00:44:34,950 --> 00:44:37,860
talk about with Luigi, who
is the artist-- we would

1039
00:44:37,860 --> 00:44:40,530
sit down and talk either
in person or on Skype

1040
00:44:40,530 --> 00:44:43,265
before every new big major task.

1041
00:44:43,265 --> 00:44:45,390
That made sure that we were
both on the right page.

1042
00:44:45,390 --> 00:44:47,410
We both had a similar
thing in our heads,

1043
00:44:47,410 --> 00:44:50,880
and any design requirements,
I was able to specify.

1044
00:44:50,880 --> 00:44:53,090
He was able to ask questions
about some of the things

1045
00:44:53,090 --> 00:44:54,660
I would forget about.

1046
00:44:54,660 --> 00:44:57,990
So making sure you have those
regular face-to-face check-ins

1047
00:44:57,990 --> 00:45:01,450
every time you're starting
something new is crucial.

1048
00:45:01,450 --> 00:45:06,470
Emma, who is my social media
guru, works four hours a week

1049
00:45:06,470 --> 00:45:08,720
and she basically keeps our
Twitter and Facebook pages

1050
00:45:08,720 --> 00:45:10,300
updated.

1051
00:45:10,300 --> 00:45:13,660
We check in regularly, if
there are any sort of campaigns

1052
00:45:13,660 --> 00:45:14,660
that I want to kick off.

1053
00:45:14,660 --> 00:45:16,652
But part of the reason
I brought her on board

1054
00:45:16,652 --> 00:45:18,860
is because every time I
would sit down with a Twitter

1055
00:45:18,860 --> 00:45:21,950
account, I'd be like, I have no
idea what I'm supposed to say.

1056
00:45:21,950 --> 00:45:23,950
Like, still working on the game.

1057
00:45:23,950 --> 00:45:26,450
And so her job is to come
up with creative ways

1058
00:45:26,450 --> 00:45:29,200
to be like, just a reminder,
the game is still out there

1059
00:45:29,200 --> 00:45:30,470
and you should purchase it!

1060
00:45:30,470 --> 00:45:32,930
In a way, it sounds
like something people

1061
00:45:32,930 --> 00:45:34,760
should be excited about.

1062
00:45:34,760 --> 00:45:36,890
So her job really is to
work a little bit more

1063
00:45:36,890 --> 00:45:39,174
independently and come up
with that stuff on her own,

1064
00:45:39,174 --> 00:45:41,090
but then there are some
times, like, I totally

1065
00:45:41,090 --> 00:45:43,864
want to steal this
NASA ABCs thing--

1066
00:45:43,864 --> 00:45:45,530
and so I'm going to
talk to her about it

1067
00:45:45,530 --> 00:45:47,470
and plan that out and
put that together.

1068
00:45:47,470 --> 00:45:49,197
So she does a lot
of independent work,

1069
00:45:49,197 --> 00:45:51,280
but then any major projects,
we check in for that.

1070
00:45:51,280 --> 00:45:53,124
MICHAEL CARRIER: Not
steal-- appropriate.

1071
00:45:53,124 --> 00:45:54,040
JENNA HOSTEIN: Borrow.

1072
00:45:54,040 --> 00:45:54,540
Borrow.

1073
00:45:54,540 --> 00:45:58,549


1074
00:45:58,549 --> 00:46:00,340
PROFESSOR: Thank you
so much for your time.

1075
00:46:00,340 --> 00:46:01,381
JENNA HOSTEIN: All right.

1076
00:46:01,381 --> 00:46:02,204
Thank you.

1077
00:46:02,204 --> 00:46:05,225
[APPLAUSE]

1078
00:46:05,225 --> 00:46:07,725
PROFESSOR: You can go ahead and
keep the microphone on, just

1079
00:46:07,725 --> 00:46:08,800
in case.

1080
00:46:08,800 --> 00:46:11,577
So we've got a
five minute break.

1081
00:46:11,577 --> 00:46:13,910
Come back down here and sign
in if you haven't signed in

1082
00:46:13,910 --> 00:46:15,780
for class yet.

1083
00:46:15,780 --> 00:46:18,030
They're available to play
your games if you are

1084
00:46:18,030 --> 00:46:19,260
ready for that sort of thing.

1085
00:46:19,260 --> 00:46:23,950
So if you are, find them,
bring them to your computer,

1086
00:46:23,950 --> 00:46:25,094
and have them play.

1087
00:46:25,094 --> 00:46:27,510
MICHAEL CARRIER: We'll leave
a bunch of our business cards

1088
00:46:27,510 --> 00:46:28,490
up here.

1089
00:46:28,490 --> 00:46:30,390
If you want to send a
portfolio, a resume,

1090
00:46:30,390 --> 00:46:32,134
just get some feedback,
please feel free.

1091
00:46:32,134 --> 00:46:33,800
I'll answer any email
that comes my way.

1092
00:46:33,800 --> 00:46:35,070
PROFESSOR: And I'm going
to email this out to them,

1093
00:46:35,070 --> 00:46:35,970
I haven't done it
yet, but there's

1094
00:46:35,970 --> 00:46:37,390
a party coming up, right?

1095
00:46:37,390 --> 00:46:37,820
MICHAEL CARRIER: Yes.

1096
00:46:37,820 --> 00:46:38,570
PROFESSOR: Can you mention that?

1097
00:46:38,570 --> 00:46:39,486
MICHAEL CARRIER: Yeah.

1098
00:46:39,486 --> 00:46:41,090
The Indie Game
Collective-- there's

1099
00:46:41,090 --> 00:46:42,381
actually two parties coming up.

1100
00:46:42,381 --> 00:46:43,990
PROFESSOR: Mention both.

1101
00:46:43,990 --> 00:46:45,740
MICHAEL CARRIER: The
Indie Game Collective

1102
00:46:45,740 --> 00:46:50,280
is having a party at the
Aeronaut Brewery in Somerville.

1103
00:46:50,280 --> 00:46:54,030
It's in between
Porter and Union.

1104
00:46:54,030 --> 00:46:57,660
It is on December 11, starts
at 5:30, goes until 11:30.

1105
00:46:57,660 --> 00:46:59,457
It's Thursday, so
you'll probably

1106
00:46:59,457 --> 00:47:01,082
have to leave a little
early so you can

1107
00:47:01,082 --> 00:47:03,550
get to class early on Friday.

1108
00:47:03,550 --> 00:47:07,282
But the-- ah, no one
laughed, even politely.

1109
00:47:07,282 --> 00:47:09,490
AUDIENCE: I think that's
after the last day of class.

1110
00:47:09,490 --> 00:47:10,490
MICHAEL CARRIER: Oh, OK.

1111
00:47:10,490 --> 00:47:11,800
Cool.

1112
00:47:11,800 --> 00:47:15,220
So the collective is
doing a bunch of art

1113
00:47:15,220 --> 00:47:16,910
and interactive installations.

1114
00:47:16,910 --> 00:47:19,950
It's games that are
not our own games,

1115
00:47:19,950 --> 00:47:21,450
but they're just
fun things that we

1116
00:47:21,450 --> 00:47:25,090
wanted to make for
the sake of art,

1117
00:47:25,090 --> 00:47:27,070
not necessarily making money.

1118
00:47:27,070 --> 00:47:32,390
Bit Fest Boston will also have
20 old school arcade cabinets

1119
00:47:32,390 --> 00:47:34,660
there.

1120
00:47:34,660 --> 00:47:39,640
We will have a funk
band and a food truck

1121
00:47:39,640 --> 00:47:45,660
that has gluten-free, vegan, and
non-alcoholic options as well.

1122
00:47:45,660 --> 00:47:49,930
On the Monday following, which
I think is December 15th,

1123
00:47:49,930 --> 00:47:54,260
Boston Indies is having
their holiday festivus

1124
00:47:54,260 --> 00:47:57,070
where people will be
just playing games.

1125
00:47:57,070 --> 00:47:58,714
It'll be some
local Indies who'll

1126
00:47:58,714 --> 00:48:00,380
be demoing some games
that they've made,

1127
00:48:00,380 --> 00:48:02,470
but we'll also just be
playing really fun games

1128
00:48:02,470 --> 00:48:05,800
like JS Joust or Hokra.

1129
00:48:05,800 --> 00:48:07,700
Jenna did an Artemis
game last year.

1130
00:48:07,700 --> 00:48:10,577
So who knows what type of
table top or digital games

1131
00:48:10,577 --> 00:48:11,160
will be there?

1132
00:48:11,160 --> 00:48:12,410
But it'll be a lot of fun too.

1133
00:48:12,410 --> 00:48:18,240
And that's going to be-- that
is in the new Bocoup office.

1134
00:48:18,240 --> 00:48:20,260
Go to bostonindies.com
and join the community

1135
00:48:20,260 --> 00:48:23,180
in terms of finding out
more information about that.

1136
00:48:23,180 --> 00:48:24,550
I'll be sending it out shortly.

1137
00:48:24,550 --> 00:48:26,470
PROFESSOR: Thanks.

1138
00:48:26,470 --> 00:48:27,860
So take five minutes.

1139
00:48:27,860 --> 00:48:32,526
2:05, 2:10 we're going
to take that thing away.

1140
00:48:32,526 --> 00:48:34,005
All right?

1141
00:48:34,005 --> 00:48:35,748
[CHATTER]

1142
00:48:35,748 --> 00:48:47,339