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SEBASTIAN DETERDING: It's a
best selling techno thriller

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00:00:23,280 --> 00:00:27,040
turned into a movie, which
is about a demo, a semi

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00:00:27,040 --> 00:00:30,240
autonomous program
gaining full autonomy

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00:00:30,240 --> 00:00:35,990
and using levelling systems
from an MMORPG to basically turn

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humans into a second speaker
society controlled by computers

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instead of the other way around.

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And connected to that
theory is definitely led

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by the rise of the term or
the concept gamification,

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00:00:48,360 --> 00:00:52,310
somewhere around 2010 or 2011,
if you follow Google search

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00:00:52,310 --> 00:00:53,610
interests.

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00:00:53,610 --> 00:00:56,920
The idea that you could use
elements from games or game

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00:00:56,920 --> 00:01:00,720
design as a kind of monosodium
glutamate or crunchy

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flakes to edit some other stuff
to make some other stuff more

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palatable.

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00:01:05,239 --> 00:01:07,445
And if there is one
thing true to this term

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00:01:07,445 --> 00:01:11,355
is that it has the heated
debate from the get go.

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On the one hand, you have
people like the ones who read,

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00:01:14,330 --> 00:01:16,230
Gabe Zicherman, he says's
it's the best tools

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00:01:16,230 --> 00:01:18,229
humanity has ever invented
to create and sustain

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00:01:18,229 --> 00:01:20,700
engagement in people game.

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00:01:20,700 --> 00:01:24,030
On the other hand, you have
people like Ian Bogus for those

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00:01:24,030 --> 00:01:26,720
choice words
[LAUGHTER] [INAUDIBLE],

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00:01:26,720 --> 00:01:28,350
which of course is
a technical term,

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00:01:28,350 --> 00:01:30,780
it's a technical term in
philosophy by Harry G.

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00:01:30,780 --> 00:01:33,690
Frankfurt, describing people
who just don't care whether what

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00:01:33,690 --> 00:01:36,440
they say is true or untrue.

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00:01:36,440 --> 00:01:39,550
So when me and my colleague
Stephen [INAUDIBLE] we're

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00:01:39,550 --> 00:01:42,520
looking at the debate
around 2011-2012,

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00:01:42,520 --> 00:01:45,440
we couldn't help noticing
a couple of things.

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00:01:45,440 --> 00:01:49,000
First thing we noticed
is-- as I said,

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this is a really heated debate.

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00:01:50,400 --> 00:01:52,039
This is so heated
that this is not just

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00:01:52,039 --> 00:01:53,580
the difference of
opinion, there must

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00:01:53,580 --> 00:01:55,750
be something deeper
underlying here

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00:01:55,750 --> 00:01:57,450
than just difference of opinion.

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And second, while evangelizers
were evangelizing,

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and critiques were
chastising, very few people

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00:02:05,030 --> 00:02:08,539
asked, well, what does the
gamification even mean?

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What are the larger
consequences, the larger

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ramifications of this for us as
individuals living in a society

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where these kind of systems
become more prevelant,

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or for us as a society?

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00:02:21,870 --> 00:02:24,920
That's kind of the origin story
of how this book came about.

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In this book, most
of what I'm talking

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about in the first chaper,
the history chapter,

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is basically what I'm
talking about here so.

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While we were digging a
bit deeper in this thing,

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saying why this
heated discourse?

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Why are people so angry?

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We found that gamification--
the gamification discourse--

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is very much in the same
state that the discourse

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around playing was in
the late 1990s, when

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the late Bryan Smith [INAUDIBLE]
game [INAUDIBLE] play.

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Show of hands, anybody
know the ambiguitive play?

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OK.

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Show of hands who's involved
in some form of game studies

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or game research program?

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Yeah, that mapping
sort of makes sense,

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if you're into game research,
you should at a certain point

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come across this book.

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What Sutton Smith and this book
basically makes the argument

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and then shows is that he says
the reason why there hasn't

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been a lot of agreement
about what players

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and what we should
do with the play is

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that the different disciplines
of different rhetorics,

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different ways of framing
the play that are grounded

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in different deeper cultural
rhetorics about what plays

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should be and how
plays should function.

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As it says, rhetorics
of plays [INAUDIBLE]

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placed within broader
value systems.

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The popular rhetorics in the
listed settings, the ambiguity

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is that there would be
seven different rhetorics,

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and nobody can
ever agree on one.

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There are these different, large
scale cultural ways of thought

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in which we, more or
less, all participate.

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And that's the reason
why that debate never

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really comes really close.

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00:03:54,210 --> 00:03:55,596
And in the same
way, when we look

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at the gamification
[INAUDIBLE] and say yeah,

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00:03:57,470 --> 00:03:59,780
that really captures pretty
well the happening here.

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00:03:59,780 --> 00:04:02,210
There is a disagreement
here about what

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00:04:02,210 --> 00:04:04,050
the proper plays
of plain society

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00:04:04,050 --> 00:04:08,165
should be to begin with
about should playing games be

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00:04:08,165 --> 00:04:10,960
used to begin before
anything else or not?

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00:04:10,960 --> 00:04:12,526
And if so, how
should they be used?

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00:04:12,526 --> 00:04:15,818
By whom should they be used, and
for what should they be used?

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00:04:15,818 --> 00:04:17,234
Because the thing
that we observe,

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00:04:17,234 --> 00:04:19,915
the series games of
gaminification with playful

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designs-- all these
different terms,

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it's basically a kind
of dual cultural moment.

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00:04:24,790 --> 00:04:31,630
On the one hand, games in play
leave the traditional spaces

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that they've been confined
in within our modern Western

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00:04:34,850 --> 00:04:36,020
nation states and cultures.

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00:04:36,020 --> 00:04:38,186
This was the leisure time
of things you did together

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00:04:38,186 --> 00:04:40,430
with your friends
in the evening,

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00:04:40,430 --> 00:04:42,490
and there were certain
kinds of games.

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00:04:42,490 --> 00:04:44,551
And suddenly, there were
also games for learning.

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00:04:44,551 --> 00:04:46,175
Suddenly, there was
games for politics.

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00:04:46,175 --> 00:04:48,970
And suddenly, everybody plays.

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00:04:48,970 --> 00:04:53,500
And then part of that, what
you get as a response to that

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00:04:53,500 --> 00:04:55,810
is that just games
become more and more

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00:04:55,810 --> 00:04:59,450
pervasive in everyday life,
which we call dilutification

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00:04:59,450 --> 00:05:00,830
of culture.

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00:05:00,830 --> 00:05:03,140
You see that other
social actors become

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00:05:03,140 --> 00:05:07,130
interested in using
games and in impressing

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00:05:07,130 --> 00:05:10,895
norms, and regulations,
and values onto games.

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00:05:10,895 --> 00:05:13,270
So suddenly, you have a big
debate where people say well,

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00:05:13,270 --> 00:05:14,670
games should be gender
aware, and games

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00:05:14,670 --> 00:05:16,170
should be more
diverse, because look

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00:05:16,170 --> 00:05:19,490
at what turbo misogynistic
space this is.

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00:05:19,490 --> 00:05:23,480
And then you have the
existing male game cultures

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00:05:23,480 --> 00:05:25,580
revolting against that,
as this result that game

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00:05:25,580 --> 00:05:27,380
play becomes more pervasive.

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00:05:27,380 --> 00:05:30,580
Suddenly, you have a
cultural discourse.

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00:05:30,580 --> 00:05:33,410
Leave out for all the terrible,
terrible online harassment

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00:05:33,410 --> 00:05:34,555
of gamer [INAUDIBLE].

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00:05:34,555 --> 00:05:38,030
But underneath that is this
underlying cultural discourse,

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00:05:38,030 --> 00:05:39,710
who should be allowed
to play games?

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00:05:39,710 --> 00:05:41,090
Who should games be for?

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00:05:41,090 --> 00:05:44,260
Who should be able to
make these decisions?

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00:05:44,260 --> 00:05:47,450
So if Ian Bogost says
something-- gamification

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00:05:47,450 --> 00:05:49,950
is marketing bullshit
as a means to capture

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00:05:49,950 --> 00:05:52,790
the wild, coveted beast
that is video games

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00:05:52,790 --> 00:05:54,340
and to domesticate it.

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00:05:54,340 --> 00:05:56,830
Games are a mysterious,
magical, powerful medium.

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He basically says there's
this nature of games.

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This is how games are.

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They're beasts.

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They're this thing.

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00:06:02,250 --> 00:06:05,080
And then suddenly, they try
to tame and domesticate.

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00:06:05,080 --> 00:06:07,730
What he's basically
saying is games

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00:06:07,730 --> 00:06:09,920
belong to us, the game
designers, and the gamers,

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00:06:09,920 --> 00:06:11,145
and the game academics.

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00:06:11,145 --> 00:06:14,450
But you marketers, please stay
out of our playing fields.

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00:06:14,450 --> 00:06:19,780
This is not you should lose
games, which obviously forgets

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00:06:19,780 --> 00:06:24,670
that games have been used
for all kinds of purposes

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00:06:24,670 --> 00:06:26,150
for the longest
period in history.

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00:06:26,150 --> 00:06:28,137
The art game has
[INAUDIBLE] and fluxes

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00:06:28,137 --> 00:06:29,970
where Ian Bogost, with
this game [INAUDIBLE]

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00:06:29,970 --> 00:06:32,210
definitely also
belongs to, or be it

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00:06:32,210 --> 00:06:34,790
war gaming, which
basically goes back

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00:06:34,790 --> 00:06:36,900
to Sun Tzu and The Art
of War, because Sun

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00:06:36,900 --> 00:06:39,980
Tzu, The Art of War, partially
was based on the culture where

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samurai were taught strategy
and cunning with good things

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of [INAUDIBLE] as a board game.

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So the idea that you could
use games for other things

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00:06:47,995 --> 00:06:50,600
than entertainment is
culturally very old.

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00:06:50,600 --> 00:06:53,655
But still, we have suddenly
this new cultural debate

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about how should we
use games in society?

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What should their place be?

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00:06:57,740 --> 00:07:00,570
And even deeper underlying
that, what kind of society

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00:07:00,570 --> 00:07:04,980
do we want to live in to begin
with, and how do we get there?

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00:07:04,980 --> 00:07:09,240
And as we were noticing these
kind of clashes of rhetorics,

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we found two
theoreticians very useful

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in mapping the total debate.

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The first one is this very
unlikely, with Victor Turner,

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00:07:19,830 --> 00:07:21,732
of the [INAUDIBLE] to theater.

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And he's an anthropologist,
very famous for his early work

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about ritual as a
social phenomenon

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00:07:26,995 --> 00:07:29,810
for all of those pictures.

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And he noticed that in
pre-modern cultures that

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was played obviously
that was also played,

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00:07:36,630 --> 00:07:42,510
the play was usually very well
coached and functionalized

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00:07:42,510 --> 00:07:46,640
in these cultures,
namely in passage rights.

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Passage rights, he says,
were these liminal spaces,

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00:07:49,350 --> 00:07:53,470
boundary spaces where
people would temporarily

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00:07:53,470 --> 00:07:55,560
leave their existing
space in society,

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00:07:55,560 --> 00:07:59,190
and play around, and
act excessively to then

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00:07:59,190 --> 00:08:02,320
be reintegrated into
society into their new role,

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00:08:02,320 --> 00:08:04,595
usually in their passage
between being a child,

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00:08:04,595 --> 00:08:06,560
and then being the
responsible adult.

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00:08:06,560 --> 00:08:09,090
You still have that kind of
thing in the Amish [INAUDIBLE]

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00:08:09,090 --> 00:08:11,550
in certain Amish
communities where

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00:08:11,550 --> 00:08:14,112
once you're considered
to be at the age

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where you can become
an adult, basically,

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00:08:15,820 --> 00:08:18,280
you get to leave the community,
do all the things you were

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00:08:18,280 --> 00:08:21,170
never allowed to do in an
Amish community-- jump around

185
00:08:21,170 --> 00:08:22,945
is the literal
translation, [GERMAN];

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00:08:22,945 --> 00:08:26,050
it's from the Germans-- and then
make the decision whether you

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00:08:26,050 --> 00:08:27,110
want to return.

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00:08:27,110 --> 00:08:29,841
So you get to play around
very literally, as [INAUDIBLE]

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00:08:29,841 --> 00:08:30,845
said, in these places.

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00:08:30,845 --> 00:08:33,490
But this is completely
functionalized as a ritual

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00:08:33,490 --> 00:08:35,830
to reproduce society.

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00:08:35,830 --> 00:08:42,679
And what we noticed is in modern
societies, singular societies,

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00:08:42,679 --> 00:08:44,465
these liminal
spaces disappeared.

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00:08:44,465 --> 00:08:46,480
We don't have a lot
of them, because we're

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00:08:46,480 --> 00:08:50,030
not a strongly religious
society anymore.

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00:08:50,030 --> 00:08:53,200
But there were
societal spaces that

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00:08:53,200 --> 00:08:55,570
retain forms and
shapes of that, only

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00:08:55,570 --> 00:08:58,430
they're used and functionalized
in different ways.

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00:08:58,430 --> 00:09:02,195
And to notify this, to
indicate this distinction,

200
00:09:02,195 --> 00:09:05,711
he makes a distinction
between liminal and liminoid.

201
00:09:05,711 --> 00:09:08,735
He says where it's liminal
spaces, like passage rights,

202
00:09:08,735 --> 00:09:11,718
like the pre-modern, religious,
and collective things that

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00:09:11,718 --> 00:09:12,462
are obligatory.

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00:09:12,462 --> 00:09:16,595
We have to do them, their
play is instrumentalized.

205
00:09:16,595 --> 00:09:20,770
It's a means towards the end
of getting you into society.

206
00:09:20,770 --> 00:09:23,410
It reproduces the
existing social order

207
00:09:23,410 --> 00:09:24,753
and improves the means.

208
00:09:24,753 --> 00:09:30,250
It's a means towards producing
society, whereas limioid spaces

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00:09:30,250 --> 00:09:34,380
play becomes something that's
not instrumental, but also

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00:09:34,380 --> 00:09:36,100
telling, done for its sake.

211
00:09:36,100 --> 00:09:38,970
Play becomes something where
you can change the order, even

212
00:09:38,970 --> 00:09:39,870
if temporarily.

213
00:09:39,870 --> 00:09:43,710
You can upset the
social order, and play

214
00:09:43,710 --> 00:09:46,090
becomes a space where you
can question the end society

215
00:09:46,090 --> 00:09:47,220
pursuits.

216
00:09:47,220 --> 00:09:50,112
Should we get through this,
instead of just reproducing it?

217
00:09:50,112 --> 00:09:50,612
Yeah?

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00:09:50,612 --> 00:09:52,903
AUDIENCE: Well, what did you
say about the [INAUDIBLE]?

219
00:09:52,903 --> 00:09:53,740
What is that?

220
00:09:53,740 --> 00:09:55,781
SEBASTIAN DETERDING:
Autotelic is from the Greek.

221
00:09:55,781 --> 00:09:58,220
Auto, self, and telos is goal.

222
00:09:58,220 --> 00:10:00,930
And autotelic means
something is its own goal.

223
00:10:00,930 --> 00:10:02,849
I do it for its own sake.

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00:10:02,849 --> 00:10:03,390
AUDIENCE: OK.

225
00:10:03,390 --> 00:10:04,890
SEBASTIAN DETERDING:
I eat because I

226
00:10:04,890 --> 00:10:10,600
enjoy eating, not because
something else, as an example.

227
00:10:10,600 --> 00:10:14,670
So he notices that we
have not these ritual

228
00:10:14,670 --> 00:10:17,464
spaces like passage
rights so much anymore,

229
00:10:17,464 --> 00:10:18,880
but we have these
liminoid spaces.

230
00:10:18,880 --> 00:10:20,560
These are spaces like art.

231
00:10:20,560 --> 00:10:22,330
He uses bases like
science, where you

232
00:10:22,330 --> 00:10:23,860
get to toy around with ideas.

233
00:10:23,860 --> 00:10:26,275
These are spaces like theater.

234
00:10:26,275 --> 00:10:28,347
These are spaces like play.

235
00:10:28,347 --> 00:10:29,180
These are time play.

236
00:10:29,180 --> 00:10:31,555
All these spaces retain
these ritual functions,

237
00:10:31,555 --> 00:10:34,040
but they're somehow
used differently.

238
00:10:34,040 --> 00:10:36,280
Give you a very
practical example.

239
00:10:36,280 --> 00:10:39,150
Art-- religious art
in pre-modern times

240
00:10:39,150 --> 00:10:42,530
was a liminal space that
just presented and reproduced

241
00:10:42,530 --> 00:10:44,480
the religious order
as it should be.

242
00:10:44,480 --> 00:10:47,240
I'm just showing you how it
should be, [INAUDIBLE], and so

243
00:10:47,240 --> 00:10:50,375
on, whereas modern liminoid
art is allowed to toy

244
00:10:50,375 --> 00:10:55,040
around with this and use the
imagery literally, play around

245
00:10:55,040 --> 00:10:57,740
with the imagery of
previous pre-modern art,

246
00:10:57,740 --> 00:11:00,690
remix it with Coca-Cola presents
the crucification of Christ

247
00:11:00,690 --> 00:11:02,380
to make critical,
soulful commentary,

248
00:11:02,380 --> 00:11:05,975
to speak about is this the
kind of commercialized society

249
00:11:05,975 --> 00:11:09,465
in which we live and should be
living in that kind of society.

250
00:11:09,465 --> 00:11:12,950
And we found this distinction
between lininal and liminoid

251
00:11:12,950 --> 00:11:15,420
helped us very well to tease
out the different political

252
00:11:15,420 --> 00:11:20,140
positions people had
towards communification.

253
00:11:20,140 --> 00:11:22,098
The second poll that we
found was very useful

254
00:11:22,098 --> 00:11:24,472
is from another book that most
of the game studies people

255
00:11:24,472 --> 00:11:27,010
know, that is [INAUDIBLE],
a French philosopher

256
00:11:27,010 --> 00:11:33,970
in the 1950s, Men Playing
Games, [FRENCH], or [FRENCH]?

257
00:11:33,970 --> 00:11:34,490
[FRENCH]?

258
00:11:34,490 --> 00:11:35,960
AUDIENCE: [FRENCH].

259
00:11:35,960 --> 00:11:39,300
SEBASTIAN DETERDING: Yeah,
where he said that basically,

260
00:11:39,300 --> 00:11:41,160
all kinds of play and
game forms, that we

261
00:11:41,160 --> 00:11:45,020
have a culture, a loosely
folding on a spectrum of two

262
00:11:45,020 --> 00:11:45,860
poles.

263
00:11:45,860 --> 00:11:51,050
One pole he declares with
the Latin ludus for basically

264
00:11:51,050 --> 00:11:55,845
a rule based game that's very
orderly, where you strive

265
00:11:55,845 --> 00:11:59,509
in order to reach goals;
every typical board

266
00:11:59,509 --> 00:12:01,342
game, or social game,
or video game that you

267
00:12:01,342 --> 00:12:03,290
can think of on the one hand.

268
00:12:03,290 --> 00:12:07,690
And on the other hand, you have
this free form improvisational,

269
00:12:07,690 --> 00:12:10,790
explorational, tumultuous play.

270
00:12:10,790 --> 00:12:13,940
Think about children playing
pretend play, or Lego.

271
00:12:13,940 --> 00:12:17,690
So all games and play forms have
basically these two ideal poles

272
00:12:17,690 --> 00:12:21,340
in them, and things fall
somewhere on these poles.

273
00:12:21,340 --> 00:12:27,330
And we notice that if we
take these two dimensions

274
00:12:27,330 --> 00:12:29,110
and look at all the
different rhetorics--

275
00:12:29,110 --> 00:12:31,060
and we could talk about
the rhetorics later.

276
00:12:31,060 --> 00:12:32,809
But if we take all the
different rhetorics

277
00:12:32,809 --> 00:12:38,640
there are, then
they pretty neatly

278
00:12:38,640 --> 00:12:40,200
form this clear clustering.

279
00:12:40,200 --> 00:12:42,310
They fall into two
clusters of opinions

280
00:12:42,310 --> 00:12:45,670
which are these underlying
rhetorical disagreements

281
00:12:45,670 --> 00:12:49,680
about what games and plays
should be in society.

282
00:12:49,680 --> 00:12:53,600
On the one hand, you
have people who very much

283
00:12:53,600 --> 00:12:55,370
like games-- structures.

284
00:12:55,370 --> 00:12:58,790
There's more structures, more
rules, more feedback systems

285
00:12:58,790 --> 00:13:01,340
that are very liminal,
but not liminal

286
00:13:01,340 --> 00:13:03,820
in the traditional,
pre-modern way reproducing

287
00:13:03,820 --> 00:13:06,260
religious order, but
liminal in a modern way,

288
00:13:06,260 --> 00:13:09,569
reproducing the existing
social order of society.

289
00:13:09,569 --> 00:13:12,110
Basically, their position's the
current social order is good.

290
00:13:12,110 --> 00:13:12,651
It's perfect.

291
00:13:12,651 --> 00:13:18,270
Society should be as it is, but
it has some flaws in execution,

292
00:13:18,270 --> 00:13:21,460
and we should use
gains as technologies

293
00:13:21,460 --> 00:13:23,250
that governments and
organizations can

294
00:13:23,250 --> 00:13:25,720
use to perfect the execution.

295
00:13:29,280 --> 00:13:32,060
It's not that the way
organizations or businesses

296
00:13:32,060 --> 00:13:33,500
organized as broken.

297
00:13:33,500 --> 00:13:36,150
It's just that people
aren't motivated enough,

298
00:13:36,150 --> 00:13:38,376
so games are a great tool
to motivate them more.

299
00:13:38,376 --> 00:13:41,600
I thought maybe we should fix
the organizations themselves,

300
00:13:41,600 --> 00:13:44,746
whereas the opposite poll, most
people who say gamification's

301
00:13:44,746 --> 00:13:48,400
bad are the ones
who more or less see

302
00:13:48,400 --> 00:13:49,790
the current social order as bad.

303
00:13:49,790 --> 00:13:52,210
They are typically
progressive and critical

304
00:13:52,210 --> 00:13:55,470
in general in their
political views.

305
00:13:55,470 --> 00:13:58,340
But say play-- the
practice of play,

306
00:13:58,340 --> 00:14:02,170
like the [INAUDIBLE] thing is
a great practice for people

307
00:14:02,170 --> 00:14:04,620
to resist the existing
order and discover together

308
00:14:04,620 --> 00:14:09,140
what kind of world
we want to begin with

309
00:14:09,140 --> 00:14:13,047
and to give you just some ideas
of these different rhetorics

310
00:14:13,047 --> 00:14:14,710
that we find.

311
00:14:14,710 --> 00:14:20,530
So some of the rhetorics
are, for instance, things

312
00:14:20,530 --> 00:14:21,710
like well being.

313
00:14:21,710 --> 00:14:24,720
That's people like
Jane McGonigal,

314
00:14:24,720 --> 00:14:27,840
people like Miguel [INAUDIBLE],
people like myself that

315
00:14:27,840 --> 00:14:31,490
speak about self determination
theory, [INAUDIBLE],

316
00:14:31,490 --> 00:14:32,220
the good life.

317
00:14:32,220 --> 00:14:34,800
And we all say well,
what's the good life

318
00:14:34,800 --> 00:14:36,430
that we all aspire to?

319
00:14:36,430 --> 00:14:38,875
And obviously, in light of
that, our current society's

320
00:14:38,875 --> 00:14:39,960
pretty broken.

321
00:14:39,960 --> 00:14:41,340
But here's the thing about play.

322
00:14:41,340 --> 00:14:43,048
Play is a realized
form of the good life,

323
00:14:43,048 --> 00:14:50,120
so we all strive to get there,
or things like performance.

324
00:14:50,120 --> 00:14:52,030
So these are people
who do pervasive games

325
00:14:52,030 --> 00:14:55,100
or who do LARPs, like
action role playing games;

326
00:14:55,100 --> 00:14:58,719
all these much, much more free
form play form to say, well,

327
00:14:58,719 --> 00:15:00,260
these are great
activities for people

328
00:15:00,260 --> 00:15:02,140
to get together and
experience that they

329
00:15:02,140 --> 00:15:07,220
can form a community, even if
a temporal community together.

330
00:15:07,220 --> 00:15:10,390
And on the other hand, you have
rhetorics like reinforcement,

331
00:15:10,390 --> 00:15:12,780
so people like
[INAUDIBLE] and others

332
00:15:12,780 --> 00:15:18,309
who raw on behaviorist modes
of thinking or behaviorist

333
00:15:18,309 --> 00:15:20,100
modes of thinking about
games and say games

334
00:15:20,100 --> 00:15:23,170
are basically these
incentives doling machines.

335
00:15:23,170 --> 00:15:25,000
And so therefore,
they're a great way

336
00:15:25,000 --> 00:15:28,660
of reproducing or incentivizing
certain behaviors.

337
00:15:28,660 --> 00:15:31,790
Or a bit more complex, nudging.

338
00:15:31,790 --> 00:15:34,340
A lot of people say games
are basically nudges.

339
00:15:34,340 --> 00:15:36,340
Just a show of hands, who
knows the term nudging

340
00:15:36,340 --> 00:15:39,480
as a technical term?

341
00:15:39,480 --> 00:15:40,530
OK.

342
00:15:40,530 --> 00:15:45,960
So who knows behavioral
economics as a term?

343
00:15:45,960 --> 00:15:51,470
So neoclassical
economics basically

344
00:15:51,470 --> 00:15:53,220
says people are rational actors.

345
00:15:53,220 --> 00:15:54,470
Give me the right information.

346
00:15:54,470 --> 00:15:55,928
Give me the right
incentives, and I

347
00:15:55,928 --> 00:15:58,440
will do what you want me to do.

348
00:15:58,440 --> 00:16:01,730
If I know this is helpful for
me, and I care about my health,

349
00:16:01,730 --> 00:16:05,802
I'm definitely going
to act healthy.

350
00:16:05,802 --> 00:16:08,010
Only then, psychology showed
us that is not the case.

351
00:16:08,010 --> 00:16:09,430
You can give people
as much information,

352
00:16:09,430 --> 00:16:11,929
and they might care as much as
they want about their health,

353
00:16:11,929 --> 00:16:14,680
but they still don't behave
healthily necessarily

354
00:16:14,680 --> 00:16:17,500
which led a lot of
economists saying to us well,

355
00:16:17,500 --> 00:16:21,275
why then do people
behave unhealthily?

356
00:16:21,275 --> 00:16:23,150
And they started to run
empirical experiments

357
00:16:23,150 --> 00:16:25,890
where they say, this is how
economic theory predicts

358
00:16:25,890 --> 00:16:28,080
how people will
behave, and here's

359
00:16:28,080 --> 00:16:29,760
how they actually behave.

360
00:16:29,760 --> 00:16:31,700
So there is a gap
there between the two,

361
00:16:31,700 --> 00:16:33,612
but this gap is predictable.

362
00:16:33,612 --> 00:16:34,320
It's a repeating.

363
00:16:34,320 --> 00:16:37,460
It's a reoccurring pattern.

364
00:16:37,460 --> 00:16:40,210
One of these reoccurring
patterns, for instance,

365
00:16:40,210 --> 00:16:43,800
is temporal discounting, which
is just a fancy technical term

366
00:16:43,800 --> 00:16:46,490
for I care for the thing
right in front of me

367
00:16:46,490 --> 00:16:51,610
much more than for a
thing way in the future.

368
00:16:51,610 --> 00:16:54,830
If they did actual economic
disbursement to people saying,

369
00:16:54,830 --> 00:17:00,293
do you want $1 now or
$100 a month from now?

370
00:17:00,293 --> 00:17:02,334
A pure rational actor
would always take the $100,

371
00:17:02,334 --> 00:17:02,834
let's say.

372
00:17:02,834 --> 00:17:05,903
Because again, in no way,
shape, or form will inflation,

373
00:17:05,903 --> 00:17:09,970
by that point, have
invalidated the $100 that much.

374
00:17:09,970 --> 00:17:13,177
But they found the majority
of people took the $1 now.

375
00:17:13,177 --> 00:17:15,319
And so they enlisted
all these kind

376
00:17:15,319 --> 00:17:17,750
of cognitive biases
and heuristics,

377
00:17:17,750 --> 00:17:19,349
these weird ways
in which we deviate

378
00:17:19,349 --> 00:17:20,980
from actual rational behavior.

379
00:17:20,980 --> 00:17:23,561
And then they said look at
games, at least that rhetoric.

380
00:17:23,561 --> 00:17:24,560
They said look at games.

381
00:17:24,560 --> 00:17:27,190
They're basically
machines for exploiting

382
00:17:27,190 --> 00:17:30,930
these kind of reliable
flaws in our thinking.

383
00:17:30,930 --> 00:17:32,670
And so therefore,
games are great for us

384
00:17:32,670 --> 00:17:34,700
to learn how to exploit
them to get people

385
00:17:34,700 --> 00:17:36,044
to do other stuff, as well.

386
00:17:43,770 --> 00:17:45,670
So so much for that.

387
00:17:45,670 --> 00:17:49,940
I'd like to finish, as I said,
with teasing out scenarios,

388
00:17:49,940 --> 00:17:52,457
so what are the visions
underlying here then?

389
00:17:52,457 --> 00:17:54,800
Then we'll get into debating.

390
00:17:54,800 --> 00:17:58,110
Namely, what are the positive or
negative visions that come out

391
00:17:58,110 --> 00:18:01,000
of these different rhetorics?

392
00:18:01,000 --> 00:18:04,420
Starting with the positive one,
on both sides that we face,

393
00:18:04,420 --> 00:18:06,690
you can slice and
dice them as you want.

394
00:18:06,690 --> 00:18:10,030
I slice and dice them in three
positive scenarios, and lots

395
00:18:10,030 --> 00:18:13,280
of issues with them that
we can no longer debate.

396
00:18:13,280 --> 00:18:17,450
The positive vision, the
best possible world version

397
00:18:17,450 --> 00:18:21,690
of engagement-- the first
one is engagement, which

398
00:18:21,690 --> 00:18:23,983
is a terrible, over-used term.

399
00:18:23,983 --> 00:18:32,710
But it's basically the idea that
we can harness all the three

400
00:18:32,710 --> 00:18:36,420
cycles, all the free
energy, all the cognitive

401
00:18:36,420 --> 00:18:37,882
surplus', [INAUDIBLE].

402
00:18:37,882 --> 00:18:40,090
Thanks to the fact that
people are now online, and no

403
00:18:40,090 --> 00:18:41,951
necessarily always
watching television,

404
00:18:41,951 --> 00:18:44,075
we can use all the hours
they poured into Wikipedia

405
00:18:44,075 --> 00:18:47,802
for really productive purposes.

406
00:18:47,802 --> 00:18:49,260
And then people
like Jane McGonigal

407
00:18:49,260 --> 00:18:50,510
said well, that's great.

408
00:18:50,510 --> 00:18:54,169
If we could use games,
you can learn from games.

409
00:18:54,169 --> 00:18:56,210
And she put in this paper,
because it's basically

410
00:18:56,210 --> 00:18:58,785
the white paper that
underlies, "Reality is Broken,"

411
00:18:58,785 --> 00:19:02,550
which she wrote back at the
institute for the future.

412
00:19:02,550 --> 00:19:05,460
We can use games as engines
for a massively [INAUDIBLE]

413
00:19:05,460 --> 00:19:09,610
collaboration and participation
to organize and incite people

414
00:19:09,610 --> 00:19:11,360
towards productive
things like solving

415
00:19:11,360 --> 00:19:13,376
complex scientific
issues, and science games,

416
00:19:13,376 --> 00:19:20,970
or stuff like that, or use
games for civic participation,

417
00:19:20,970 --> 00:19:24,100
or the aspect of games,
like DIY democracy,

418
00:19:24,100 --> 00:19:28,160
where you would get points
for being an active citizen.

419
00:19:28,160 --> 00:19:30,230
The one issue-- lots of
issues, but one issue

420
00:19:30,230 --> 00:19:34,565
I have with that is even if
that would insight engagement

421
00:19:34,565 --> 00:19:38,215
of people-- for instance,
use this to report pot holes

422
00:19:38,215 --> 00:19:41,340
in your street, it would
always structure participation

423
00:19:41,340 --> 00:19:43,000
of people in a certain manner.

424
00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:45,425
So if we see this as
a vision of society,

425
00:19:45,425 --> 00:19:50,844
we have to be aware that every
structure for participation

426
00:19:50,844 --> 00:19:52,760
creates structures of
who gets to participate,

427
00:19:52,760 --> 00:19:55,742
who's included in the executing.

428
00:19:55,742 --> 00:19:57,915
You can also say who
has technological access

429
00:19:57,915 --> 00:19:58,915
to these kinds of tools?

430
00:19:58,915 --> 00:20:01,112
Who runs around the whole
time with a smartphone?

431
00:20:01,112 --> 00:20:02,570
Who even cares about this?

432
00:20:02,570 --> 00:20:05,041
Who has the technological
literacy to use these tools?

433
00:20:05,041 --> 00:20:06,790
That is with all the
citizen participation

434
00:20:06,790 --> 00:20:09,907
tools, who actually uses
this to report pot holes?

435
00:20:09,907 --> 00:20:12,115
And again, you find that
this is very much stratified

436
00:20:12,115 --> 00:20:13,750
by socio-economic status.

437
00:20:16,340 --> 00:20:19,060
The second positive
vision is community.

438
00:20:19,060 --> 00:20:22,180
That's what I talked about as
performance is the idea that we

439
00:20:22,180 --> 00:20:25,280
can use games and play
to bring people together

440
00:20:25,280 --> 00:20:27,740
and to experience hey,
we like each other.

441
00:20:27,740 --> 00:20:29,100
We're pretty much alike.

442
00:20:29,100 --> 00:20:32,897
We want the same
things, and we think

443
00:20:32,897 --> 00:20:35,480
that this thing in our society
is built, and so let's together

444
00:20:35,480 --> 00:20:36,190
get together and fix it.

445
00:20:36,190 --> 00:20:37,898
So it's a way of
bringing together people

446
00:20:37,898 --> 00:20:40,500
into new forms of community.

447
00:20:40,500 --> 00:20:42,110
This goes back to
early movements,

448
00:20:42,110 --> 00:20:46,920
like the new games
movement back in the Bay

449
00:20:46,920 --> 00:20:50,955
Area in the 1970s which
underlies a lot of the still

450
00:20:50,955 --> 00:20:54,880
Utopian thinking in Silicon
Valley where they basically

451
00:20:54,880 --> 00:20:57,235
said with the Vietnam
War going, can't we

452
00:20:57,235 --> 00:21:00,130
create non-competitive games
that get people together

453
00:21:00,130 --> 00:21:01,950
in order to understand
that that is also

454
00:21:01,950 --> 00:21:04,425
a form of co-existing instead
of constantly combating

455
00:21:04,425 --> 00:21:05,610
each other?

456
00:21:05,610 --> 00:21:07,420
And as Stewart Brand
back then said,

457
00:21:07,420 --> 00:21:10,580
you can't change a game by
winning it, or losing it,

458
00:21:10,580 --> 00:21:12,130
or refereeing it,
or spectating it,

459
00:21:12,130 --> 00:21:13,260
because then you're still
playing by the rules.

460
00:21:13,260 --> 00:21:15,650
You still have to create
a new game together

461
00:21:15,650 --> 00:21:18,560
to leave the old
society and to move on.

462
00:21:18,560 --> 00:21:20,860
And contemporary
examples of that

463
00:21:20,860 --> 00:21:23,474
are things like you're
guerrilla gardening,

464
00:21:23,474 --> 00:21:25,390
and there are games
around guerrilla gardening

465
00:21:25,390 --> 00:21:26,830
as a community.

466
00:21:26,830 --> 00:21:31,450
Or my favorite example is
Massively Multiplayer Soba

467
00:21:31,450 --> 00:21:33,312
by tilt factor.

468
00:21:33,312 --> 00:21:34,770
The treasure hunt
through New York,

469
00:21:34,770 --> 00:21:37,710
through one of New York's
most diverse neighborhoods.

470
00:21:37,710 --> 00:21:39,660
And the idea is the
difference teams

471
00:21:39,660 --> 00:21:42,200
get sheets with
ingredients that they

472
00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:44,005
have to bring to
the final cookout,

473
00:21:44,005 --> 00:21:46,220
where people cook together,
only the ingredients are

474
00:21:46,220 --> 00:21:49,932
written in different languages;
Hebrew, Hindi, whatever.

475
00:21:49,932 --> 00:21:52,964
So you have to go through
this neighborhood,

476
00:21:52,964 --> 00:21:54,964
find people to translate
the ingredients to you,

477
00:21:54,964 --> 00:21:56,800
and then tell you
where you actually find

478
00:21:56,800 --> 00:21:59,000
all these local ingredients.

479
00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:00,983
That way, naturally
getting into conversations

480
00:22:00,983 --> 00:22:03,399
with people in that neighborhood
you would otherwise never

481
00:22:03,399 --> 00:22:04,139
have talked to.

482
00:22:04,139 --> 00:22:05,805
And then the game
gives you extra points

483
00:22:05,805 --> 00:22:08,332
for bringing stories about
food from that culture

484
00:22:08,332 --> 00:22:10,290
or bringing actual people
from the neighborhood

485
00:22:10,290 --> 00:22:11,165
to the final cookout.

486
00:22:15,640 --> 00:22:17,260
One issue again--
lots of issues,

487
00:22:17,260 --> 00:22:19,250
but one issue with
that is that I'm always

488
00:22:19,250 --> 00:22:21,440
wondering to what extent--
these are basically

489
00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:25,830
again, things hipsters can do
to make themselves feel well

490
00:22:25,830 --> 00:22:28,440
versus to what extent are
these things that actually cite

491
00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:33,755
large scale social action or
commodify your [INAUDIBLE],

492
00:22:33,755 --> 00:22:35,240
you'll find.

493
00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:39,450
The third positive vision
is hacking; hacking systems.

494
00:22:39,450 --> 00:22:42,115
The underlying idea there,
and a lot of the references

495
00:22:42,115 --> 00:22:44,930
will say well, if there's
one thing about games that's

496
00:22:44,930 --> 00:22:46,620
great it's their systems.

497
00:22:46,620 --> 00:22:48,380
Or one thing game's
good at is systems,

498
00:22:48,380 --> 00:22:50,753
and one thing that
you can do with games

499
00:22:50,753 --> 00:22:54,200
is you learn systems thinking.

500
00:22:54,200 --> 00:22:57,101
Anybody know September 12?

501
00:22:57,101 --> 00:23:00,350
One of the early news
games, persuasive games.

502
00:23:00,350 --> 00:23:03,370
The idea came out right
after September 11th,

503
00:23:03,370 --> 00:23:05,550
shortly thereafter
by Gonzalo Frasca.

504
00:23:05,550 --> 00:23:07,880
You basically see
this little landscape

505
00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:11,390
in some long,
disparate Arab country.

506
00:23:11,390 --> 00:23:13,590
You see some people
running around

507
00:23:13,590 --> 00:23:18,620
in quote, unquote,
"terrorist" uniforms,

508
00:23:18,620 --> 00:23:21,664
and then you just have
this targeting circle.

509
00:23:21,664 --> 00:23:23,330
And then you can
choose whether you want

510
00:23:23,330 --> 00:23:25,100
to fire bombs with them or not.

511
00:23:25,100 --> 00:23:27,860
When you fire bombs,
inevitably you

512
00:23:27,860 --> 00:23:29,676
will create collateral
damage in terms

513
00:23:29,676 --> 00:23:30,800
of people and other things.

514
00:23:30,800 --> 00:23:33,280
And inevitably,
people standing around

515
00:23:33,280 --> 00:23:36,165
that will mourn for the
dead, and then some of them

516
00:23:36,165 --> 00:23:38,580
will likewise transform
into terrorists.

517
00:23:38,580 --> 00:23:42,800
So it's the systemic model
of violence beget violence.

518
00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:45,262
By attacking, you will only
create more resistance,

519
00:23:45,262 --> 00:23:46,500
basically.

520
00:23:46,500 --> 00:23:47,970
You may disagree
with the argument,

521
00:23:47,970 --> 00:23:49,657
but it's a basic
way of showing you

522
00:23:49,657 --> 00:23:52,970
how games can model a
system and show a system

523
00:23:52,970 --> 00:23:54,160
and can [INAUDIBLE] systems.

524
00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:56,140
So the argument of
hacking, as well;

525
00:23:56,140 --> 00:23:57,940
games are great for
systems thinking

526
00:23:57,940 --> 00:24:00,970
or learnings to this
kind of systems thinking.

527
00:24:00,970 --> 00:24:04,140
And by making games
about the broken systems

528
00:24:04,140 --> 00:24:07,950
we live in, like in those
airport and security,

529
00:24:07,950 --> 00:24:11,100
about constantly changing
new rules; what is allowed,

530
00:24:11,100 --> 00:24:12,304
what is not allowed.

531
00:24:12,304 --> 00:24:17,880
You notice how broken that
kind of TSA system is,

532
00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:20,855
and by learning to
build systems ourselves

533
00:24:20,855 --> 00:24:23,530
through game design and all
kinds of tools that open up

534
00:24:23,530 --> 00:24:26,470
game design for other
people, we might actually

535
00:24:26,470 --> 00:24:29,401
educate a generation
of people who can then

536
00:24:29,401 --> 00:24:31,192
use that game design
and knowledge in order

537
00:24:31,192 --> 00:24:34,880
to redesign the broken social
systems in which we live.

538
00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:38,310
The issue with
that is obviously,

539
00:24:38,310 --> 00:24:40,695
anybody has yet to show me
that there is data for that,

540
00:24:40,695 --> 00:24:43,380
that that actually happens.

541
00:24:43,380 --> 00:24:44,160
OK.

542
00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:47,870
Final three, dystopia.

543
00:24:47,870 --> 00:24:49,400
The first one is
obviously the one

544
00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:51,380
that you most likely will come
across the most [INAUDIBLE]

545
00:24:51,380 --> 00:24:53,213
when people were talking
about gamification.

546
00:24:53,213 --> 00:24:56,300
That is this is a
perfect control society.

547
00:24:56,300 --> 00:25:01,116
And my favorite one, has anybody
seen the talk by Jesse Schell?

548
00:25:01,116 --> 00:25:02,220
The Gamepocalypse.

549
00:25:02,220 --> 00:25:04,830
That's one of the other
initial pieces of media

550
00:25:04,830 --> 00:25:06,606
that the whole
gamification thing started.

551
00:25:06,606 --> 00:25:10,640
It's a talk he gave in 2010
at a game design conference,

552
00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:13,472
and he described the
future world in which game

553
00:25:13,472 --> 00:25:15,070
designers would rule.

554
00:25:15,070 --> 00:25:16,440
And on, and on, and on it goes.

555
00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:19,610
It's a five minute riff within
the talk where he just runs

556
00:25:19,610 --> 00:25:22,370
with the idea and says, what
if all kinds of organizations

557
00:25:22,370 --> 00:25:24,210
and governments
would basically start

558
00:25:24,210 --> 00:25:25,930
to use point of
incentives systems

559
00:25:25,930 --> 00:25:29,820
to get people to do
everything they want to do.

560
00:25:29,820 --> 00:25:31,070
And people say, this is silly.

561
00:25:31,070 --> 00:25:31,861
This is ridiculous.

562
00:25:31,861 --> 00:25:32,700
This is also scary.

563
00:25:32,700 --> 00:25:34,754
The only thing is it's
also becoming a reality.

564
00:25:34,754 --> 00:25:37,170
Shortly after the talk, there
was this sort of green goose

565
00:25:37,170 --> 00:25:39,130
which actually did sensor kids.

566
00:25:39,130 --> 00:25:42,589
So you can use ubiquitous
computing everywhere,

567
00:25:42,589 --> 00:25:43,880
especially to brush your teeth.

568
00:25:43,880 --> 00:25:46,030
Some people are obsessed
with brushing their teeth

569
00:25:46,030 --> 00:25:49,150
and getting points for it-- to
measure everything, and then

570
00:25:49,150 --> 00:25:50,930
set up your own reward
system for that,

571
00:25:50,930 --> 00:25:52,831
and you have these
default senses that you

572
00:25:52,831 --> 00:25:55,450
can use for everything else.

573
00:25:55,450 --> 00:25:57,760
And if you say well, that's
nice if it's for people.

574
00:25:57,760 --> 00:26:00,170
That's not what
organizations do-- well,

575
00:26:00,170 --> 00:26:02,130
this year's one part
of the health program

576
00:26:02,130 --> 00:26:05,290
that I was introduced to at
Northeastern, which I find very

577
00:26:05,290 --> 00:26:06,500
cute, which is Virgin Pulse.

578
00:26:06,500 --> 00:26:09,810
Basically, it's one of these
health trackers, step trackers.

579
00:26:09,810 --> 00:26:12,890
And if I use the step tracker
for my university, hey.

580
00:26:12,890 --> 00:26:14,870
I actually get
points, and the points

581
00:26:14,870 --> 00:26:17,980
are translated into
reduced insurance premiums.

582
00:26:20,900 --> 00:26:23,420
Now you might say well-- a lot
of my colleagues said well,

583
00:26:23,420 --> 00:26:24,070
this is great.

584
00:26:24,070 --> 00:26:26,810
You're getting money, so
why shouldn't I do it?

585
00:26:26,810 --> 00:26:30,000
I said well, I don't
know if I actually

586
00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:32,820
want either my employer
or my health insurance

587
00:26:32,820 --> 00:26:35,906
to know how healthy or unhealthy
my behavior [INAUDIBLE] myself.

588
00:26:35,906 --> 00:26:38,670
And then the next time
I switch an insurance,

589
00:26:38,670 --> 00:26:42,120
the insurance looks at
the data and says-- hm.

590
00:26:42,120 --> 00:26:44,760
We should raise your premium.

591
00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:47,210
The larger issue behind
that is basically

592
00:26:47,210 --> 00:26:49,740
that most of these
systems are at face value

593
00:26:49,740 --> 00:26:52,510
are sold as more
fun or rewards or

594
00:26:52,510 --> 00:26:54,490
empowerment to the individual.

595
00:26:54,490 --> 00:26:56,310
Like Rescue Time
is this application

596
00:26:56,310 --> 00:26:57,520
that you can let running.

597
00:26:57,520 --> 00:26:59,621
And then it tells
you, just by keeping

598
00:26:59,621 --> 00:27:01,370
in the back end, what
kind of applications

599
00:27:01,370 --> 00:27:04,760
were running all through
the day and what kind

600
00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:06,554
of browser windows
you had open in order

601
00:27:06,554 --> 00:27:08,970
to discover what you're time
syncs are in order to be more

602
00:27:08,970 --> 00:27:10,396
productive as an individual.

603
00:27:10,396 --> 00:27:11,150
Yay.

604
00:27:11,150 --> 00:27:12,700
Only then there's
this nice button,

605
00:27:12,700 --> 00:27:15,050
Looking for Rescue Time for
Entire Team or Organization,

606
00:27:15,050 --> 00:27:16,560
click here.

607
00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:18,220
And then you see the
management feature

608
00:27:18,220 --> 00:27:19,950
which allows the manager,
who installs this

609
00:27:19,950 --> 00:27:22,090
all across the team to see
exactly what everybody's

610
00:27:22,090 --> 00:27:25,830
actually doing on their
computer the whole day.

611
00:27:25,830 --> 00:27:29,650
And obviously, this
issue is true everywhere

612
00:27:29,650 --> 00:27:32,950
we use gamified
applications are installed,

613
00:27:32,950 --> 00:27:35,510
which according to the
vision, will be everywhere.

614
00:27:35,510 --> 00:27:37,247
So you can even
imagine something

615
00:27:37,247 --> 00:27:38,810
like Amazon saying
hey, because we

616
00:27:38,810 --> 00:27:40,490
want people to read
more books, we're

617
00:27:40,490 --> 00:27:41,675
going to deal out
virtual rewards

618
00:27:41,675 --> 00:27:43,299
and incentives for
people to read more,

619
00:27:43,299 --> 00:27:46,510
because then we make more
money only while I do so.

620
00:27:46,510 --> 00:27:49,178
And then I read all the
volumes of Das Capital,

621
00:27:49,178 --> 00:27:50,761
somebody else might
also be interested

622
00:27:50,761 --> 00:27:53,052
in that kind of data, that
I'm actually currently

623
00:27:53,052 --> 00:27:55,950
interested in Marxism.

624
00:27:55,950 --> 00:27:59,120
The third issue there is that
face value of fun and self

625
00:27:59,120 --> 00:28:01,510
realization at companies.

626
00:28:01,510 --> 00:28:04,870
And all Silicon Valley
companies have to have sleds.

627
00:28:04,870 --> 00:28:06,280
This here is at YouTube.

628
00:28:06,280 --> 00:28:08,206
Obviously, a YouTube red.

629
00:28:08,206 --> 00:28:11,020
I recently did a bit of
research around playful offices.

630
00:28:11,020 --> 00:28:13,498
They really have all sleds
somehow, for some reason.

631
00:28:13,498 --> 00:28:14,980
We can talk about that.

632
00:28:14,980 --> 00:28:19,190
But that, in the back end, is
really covert exploitation.

633
00:28:19,190 --> 00:28:21,520
We make it so fun and so
comfy here in this place

634
00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:24,395
that you never want to leave
the workplace, at which point

635
00:28:24,395 --> 00:28:27,920
then, you get suicides
and exhaustion in places

636
00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:34,230
like the Las Vegas downtown
project run by Zappos there,

637
00:28:34,230 --> 00:28:37,150
or as [INAUDIBLE] nicely
put it, gamification

638
00:28:37,150 --> 00:28:40,760
is a mechanism of
decoupling alienation.

639
00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:43,310
I feel like I'm not
realizing myself.

640
00:28:43,310 --> 00:28:45,230
I feel I'm not doing
what I'm passionate

641
00:28:45,230 --> 00:28:49,770
about from exploitation.

642
00:28:49,770 --> 00:28:53,120
With gamification, I may not
be alienated by my working,

643
00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:54,260
or this is fun.

644
00:28:54,260 --> 00:28:56,020
This is great, but
I'm still exploited.

645
00:28:56,020 --> 00:28:59,120
The majority of the revenue
still stays with your employer.

646
00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:01,070
And the big issue
with these systems

647
00:29:01,070 --> 00:29:04,076
is they're all
implemented in code.

648
00:29:04,076 --> 00:29:09,510
This is all codified,
algorithmic, automated

649
00:29:09,510 --> 00:29:10,670
regulation.

650
00:29:10,670 --> 00:29:13,840
And the big issue with that
is you can't argue with it.

651
00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:17,690
If you have an
overdraft on your bank,

652
00:29:17,690 --> 00:29:19,522
you could still go
to your bank teller,

653
00:29:19,522 --> 00:29:20,980
depending on which
country you are.

654
00:29:20,980 --> 00:29:22,896
Here, they are typically
very neo autonomized,

655
00:29:22,896 --> 00:29:24,974
but in European countries, not.

656
00:29:24,974 --> 00:29:27,390
And then you can say listen,
you've known me for 10 years,

657
00:29:27,390 --> 00:29:29,265
and I only need an
extension for another day,

658
00:29:29,265 --> 00:29:31,175
and I'd pay the money
back, and he does so.

659
00:29:31,175 --> 00:29:32,800
We know there will
always be exceptions

660
00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:33,660
to the rule in reality.

661
00:29:33,660 --> 00:29:35,600
The only issues with
these algorithmic system.

662
00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:36,981
I can't argue with them.

663
00:29:36,981 --> 00:29:38,480
I don't even know
according to which

664
00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:40,965
rules they tell me yes or no
or give me certain rewards.

665
00:29:40,965 --> 00:29:43,104
And I can't change
that, contrary

666
00:29:43,104 --> 00:29:45,470
to other political systems.

667
00:29:45,470 --> 00:29:47,069
So basically, the
control fear is

668
00:29:47,069 --> 00:29:49,235
that it's on the one hand,
big brother watching you,

669
00:29:49,235 --> 00:29:51,330
because it's constant
surveillance in the back,

670
00:29:51,330 --> 00:29:54,170
and all your data is captured.

671
00:29:54,170 --> 00:29:56,030
It comes with the
playfuls of veneers,

672
00:29:56,030 --> 00:29:58,280
so it's the Aldous Huxley soma.

673
00:29:58,280 --> 00:30:01,520
All this is fun and happy, and
why should we care about it?

674
00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:03,950
And it's a little bit
overload, because all of this

675
00:30:03,950 --> 00:30:04,969
is run by computers.

676
00:30:04,969 --> 00:30:08,400
It's not even run
by people anymore.

677
00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:11,690
As I said, this is going to be
the worst case scenario here.

678
00:30:11,690 --> 00:30:13,980
The big issue obviously,
which I pointed out in text

679
00:30:13,980 --> 00:30:17,560
here is that these
kind of control systems

680
00:30:17,560 --> 00:30:20,600
destroy the very thing that
makes games fun to begin with.

681
00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:23,695
They give you the freedom of
playing, voluntary choosing

682
00:30:23,695 --> 00:30:24,540
to the activity.

683
00:30:27,150 --> 00:30:29,196
Second, and third,
and then we're

684
00:30:29,196 --> 00:30:31,170
done with negative vision.

685
00:30:31,170 --> 00:30:34,401
The second negative
vision is gamification

686
00:30:34,401 --> 00:30:36,275
doesn't even lead to
more control in society.

687
00:30:36,275 --> 00:30:38,940
It just reproduces
existing society as it is.

688
00:30:38,940 --> 00:30:41,685
It reproduces the
systems and the rhetorics

689
00:30:41,685 --> 00:30:44,085
that we have in our system.

690
00:30:44,085 --> 00:30:46,230
The overarching
narrative, if you

691
00:30:46,230 --> 00:30:50,210
look at persuasive technology
with the quantified self,

692
00:30:50,210 --> 00:30:50,936
[INAUDIBLE].

693
00:30:50,936 --> 00:30:54,160
The overarching rhetoric
of all of these systems

694
00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:57,865
is when we have
social issues or when

695
00:30:57,865 --> 00:31:00,590
we have individual
issues like obesity,

696
00:31:00,590 --> 00:31:03,980
like climate change, or
stuff like that, it's

697
00:31:03,980 --> 00:31:07,390
the individual's fault.
It's the individual's fault,

698
00:31:07,390 --> 00:31:11,350
because all of these systems
address individual behavior.

699
00:31:11,350 --> 00:31:13,784
If only I motivated you
to run a bit better,

700
00:31:13,784 --> 00:31:14,700
you'd not [INAUDIBLE].

701
00:31:14,700 --> 00:31:17,440
If only I motivated you to drive
a bit more fuel efficiently

702
00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:20,450
each day, we wouldn't have
global warming, basically.

703
00:31:20,450 --> 00:31:22,430
That's the argument by
addressing these things

704
00:31:22,430 --> 00:31:24,990
through specified applications.

705
00:31:24,990 --> 00:31:27,320
So basically, the
underlying rhetoric there

706
00:31:27,320 --> 00:31:30,617
is this very American one.

707
00:31:30,617 --> 00:31:32,700
Anything can be accomplished
if one has the desire

708
00:31:32,700 --> 00:31:35,310
and determination.

709
00:31:35,310 --> 00:31:37,810
If there is a social issue, if
there is an individual issue,

710
00:31:37,810 --> 00:31:40,850
it's because the individual
didn't have the willpower.

711
00:31:40,850 --> 00:31:42,370
And basically, these
technical tools

712
00:31:42,370 --> 00:31:44,680
just give you an augmentation
to your willpower

713
00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:49,124
by motivating you if you
can't motivate yourself.

714
00:31:49,124 --> 00:31:50,915
Is there anything wrong
with this rhetoric?

715
00:31:50,915 --> 00:31:51,550
Well, let's see.

716
00:31:51,550 --> 00:31:53,966
There are other places where
the same rhetoric was around,

717
00:31:53,966 --> 00:31:56,130
like Maoist China, where
we had slogans like when

718
00:31:56,130 --> 00:32:00,080
discipline's reinforced,
revolution cannot fail,

719
00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:04,110
saying if the great leap forward
trying to mass industrialize

720
00:32:04,110 --> 00:32:08,180
a country of several hundred
million people within the term

721
00:32:08,180 --> 00:32:11,440
of five years, if that
kills millions of people,

722
00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:13,984
it's not because the planet
was bonkers to begin with.

723
00:32:13,984 --> 00:32:18,630
It's because the individuals
didn't put in enough effort.

724
00:32:18,630 --> 00:32:22,190
In the same way, I think
gamification and lots

725
00:32:22,190 --> 00:32:24,955
of persuasive technology
makes the same issue

726
00:32:24,955 --> 00:32:26,870
of the background
systemic root causes.

727
00:32:26,870 --> 00:32:30,630
The deeper underlying
societal issues

728
00:32:30,630 --> 00:32:33,706
that are not caused
by individual behavior

729
00:32:33,706 --> 00:32:35,690
necessarily or that are
not just [INAUDIBLE]

730
00:32:35,690 --> 00:32:37,560
on the individual weather.

731
00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:41,810
You'll interpret the [INAUDIBLE]
of environmental psychology

732
00:32:41,810 --> 00:32:43,560
that recently made the
same argument where

733
00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:45,450
it said, we're basically
fooling ourselves

734
00:32:45,450 --> 00:32:48,222
if we believe that getting
people to recycle more

735
00:32:48,222 --> 00:32:51,230
will solve any of our
environmental issues,

736
00:32:51,230 --> 00:32:58,120
because municipal loves
production, just as an example.

737
00:32:58,120 --> 00:33:00,800
So all the waste
that everybody of us

738
00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:02,620
produces in a city
that's collected

739
00:33:02,620 --> 00:33:04,950
by the municipalities,
all the waste

740
00:33:04,950 --> 00:33:07,645
that we produce-- how much
is municipal waste production

741
00:33:07,645 --> 00:33:10,570
from total US waste production?

742
00:33:10,570 --> 00:33:12,250
What share?

743
00:33:12,250 --> 00:33:12,940
Any numbers?

744
00:33:17,547 --> 00:33:18,520
AUDIENCE: 10%.

745
00:33:18,520 --> 00:33:20,770
SEBASTIAN DETERDING:
10%, more or less.

746
00:33:20,770 --> 00:33:21,312
AUDIENCE: 5%.

747
00:33:21,312 --> 00:33:22,894
SEBASTIAN DETERDING:
5%, more or less.

748
00:33:22,894 --> 00:33:23,650
AUDIENCE: 2%?

749
00:33:23,650 --> 00:33:27,480
SEBASTIAN DETERDING:
2%-- too low-- 3%.

750
00:33:27,480 --> 00:33:32,060
So if you all recycle more,
we're reducing 10% of 3%,

751
00:33:32,060 --> 00:33:34,855
whereas most of the
waste productions

752
00:33:34,855 --> 00:33:36,230
happens in industrial
production.

753
00:33:36,230 --> 00:33:38,920
Most of the waste production
happens in supply chains.

754
00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:41,120
It doesn't happen at the
level of individual waste.

755
00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:42,880
Same goes for energy savings.

756
00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:44,516
Same goes for all the issues.

757
00:33:44,516 --> 00:33:48,410
We're addressing the wrong
things with this kind of thing

758
00:33:48,410 --> 00:33:52,010
if we're always focusing
on the individual behavior.

759
00:33:52,010 --> 00:33:55,320
Third and final one
is it's not control.

760
00:33:55,320 --> 00:33:57,640
It's not even reproducing
existing social order.

761
00:33:57,640 --> 00:34:00,510
It's just reference.

762
00:34:00,510 --> 00:34:04,046
My favorite example for
that is the PlayPump,

763
00:34:04,046 --> 00:34:07,260
a system invented by a civil
engineer in South Africa

764
00:34:07,260 --> 00:34:08,960
sometime in the 90s.

765
00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:12,764
And in 1994, a retired
advertising executive

766
00:34:12,764 --> 00:34:14,639
discovered it and said,
this is a great idea.

767
00:34:14,639 --> 00:34:17,290
Let me buy the patent,
and let me make this big.

768
00:34:17,290 --> 00:34:20,460
The idea of the
PlayPump is basically

769
00:34:20,460 --> 00:34:22,800
lots of cities in Africa
and other developing nations

770
00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:25,449
don't have enough
fresh water pumps.

771
00:34:25,449 --> 00:34:27,010
So what they said
is hey, instead

772
00:34:27,010 --> 00:34:28,790
of the traditional
fresh water pumps,

773
00:34:28,790 --> 00:34:33,239
let's install a fresh water pump
that's actually a roundabout

774
00:34:33,239 --> 00:34:36,880
and put a reservoir on top of
it that's seen here, behind.

775
00:34:36,880 --> 00:34:43,960
And so water is pumped for
the local village's water

776
00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:45,614
consumption by the
children playing.

777
00:34:45,614 --> 00:34:46,989
Nobody has to work
for the water.

778
00:34:46,989 --> 00:34:48,655
The children enjoy
using the roundabout.

779
00:34:48,655 --> 00:34:50,034
They will pump the water up.

780
00:34:50,034 --> 00:34:51,909
And you know how we pay
for this whole thing?

781
00:34:51,909 --> 00:34:54,639
We use the reservoir as
an advertising space.

782
00:34:54,639 --> 00:34:58,310
So the advertisers will pay
for the installment of this.

783
00:34:58,310 --> 00:34:59,410
It's a great story.

784
00:34:59,410 --> 00:35:01,160
It's a great new
story to say hey,

785
00:35:01,160 --> 00:35:04,360
water is easy as child's
play, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah.

786
00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:06,345
It got a great, favorable
PBS documentary,

787
00:35:06,345 --> 00:35:09,640
lots of other favorable
press attention.

788
00:35:09,640 --> 00:35:11,890
He got then $60
million US dollars

789
00:35:11,890 --> 00:35:15,201
in aid promised from US aid.

790
00:35:15,201 --> 00:35:17,100
Only then, development
aid workers

791
00:35:17,100 --> 00:35:19,945
started raising their
hands and saying, sorry.

792
00:35:19,945 --> 00:35:22,236
Nobody wants to advertise it
to the developing nations,

793
00:35:22,236 --> 00:35:27,880
it turns out, especially
not in rural villages.

794
00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:32,780
And they found out that the pump
is more difficult to install,

795
00:35:32,780 --> 00:35:37,280
less efficient, more difficult
to service than existing water

796
00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:39,270
pumps in other cultures.

797
00:35:39,270 --> 00:35:41,740
And they found that the
average water consumption

798
00:35:41,740 --> 00:35:45,350
of an average African
village is so big

799
00:35:45,350 --> 00:35:46,880
that children would
have to operate

800
00:35:46,880 --> 00:35:48,379
the roundabout with
their body power

801
00:35:48,379 --> 00:35:51,556
for 27 continuous hours per day.

802
00:35:51,556 --> 00:35:52,930
So it's impossible.

803
00:35:52,930 --> 00:35:55,140
It's impossible that
children can produce

804
00:35:55,140 --> 00:35:57,780
enough water [INAUDIBLE].

805
00:35:57,780 --> 00:36:01,882
So therefore, it ended up
that the adults were operating

806
00:36:01,882 --> 00:36:03,340
the roundabout,
only the roundabout

807
00:36:03,340 --> 00:36:04,340
was built for children.

808
00:36:04,340 --> 00:36:06,760
So the adults always had to
hunker down and use this one,

809
00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:09,110
so they were breaking their
backs as they were doing so,

810
00:36:09,110 --> 00:36:11,910
very literally.

811
00:36:11,910 --> 00:36:15,890
So this thing is
a great new story

812
00:36:15,890 --> 00:36:19,110
that gives you great pictures
with all kinds of things.

813
00:36:19,110 --> 00:36:22,290
And the argument, or the
fear, or the negative vision

814
00:36:22,290 --> 00:36:24,260
here is that gamification,
like the PlayPump,

815
00:36:24,260 --> 00:36:26,620
is very much this.

816
00:36:26,620 --> 00:36:29,000
If companies, or organizations,
or governments talking

817
00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:31,918
about we're using games to
power, engage, and dah, dah,

818
00:36:31,918 --> 00:36:36,060
dah, dah, dah, or when the
current administration says

819
00:36:36,060 --> 00:36:38,620
we're going to put
constant [INAUDIBLE]

820
00:36:38,620 --> 00:36:42,270
into to the White House Office
of Science and Technology

821
00:36:42,270 --> 00:36:45,100
Office in order to run
games for brand challenges,

822
00:36:45,100 --> 00:36:48,170
this is not so much because
it actually changes stuff,

823
00:36:48,170 --> 00:36:51,440
but because it is, in
Elizabeth [INAUDIBLE] word,

824
00:36:51,440 --> 00:36:53,160
the [INAUDIBLE].

825
00:36:53,160 --> 00:36:57,810
That is it's nice sounding words
with no meaning, whose only

826
00:36:57,810 --> 00:37:03,370
purpose is to appear cool
and modern as organizations.

827
00:37:03,370 --> 00:37:04,590
Enough talk for me.

828
00:37:04,590 --> 00:37:07,220
The rest of the talk should
be about exactly that,

829
00:37:07,220 --> 00:37:10,950
or you think the proper
place in plain society has .

830
00:37:10,950 --> 00:37:12,405
Thank you.

831
00:37:12,405 --> 00:37:15,315
[APPLAUSE]

832
00:37:15,315 --> 00:37:17,209
I left my water up there.

833
00:37:17,209 --> 00:37:19,000
GABRIELLE TREPANIER-JOBIN:
Well, thank you.

834
00:37:19,000 --> 00:37:22,160
It's very interesting
how you really

835
00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:24,740
frame different kind of
rhetoric about gamification,

836
00:37:24,740 --> 00:37:27,360
because that's really the way
I feel when I read the three

837
00:37:27,360 --> 00:37:30,660
texts that were at the program
for today that was Zichermann's

838
00:37:30,660 --> 00:37:33,440
text that was really
what you said,

839
00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:37,170
like the type of rhetoric that
is very Utopian, conception

840
00:37:37,170 --> 00:37:42,270
of gamification, something that
allows engagement, and so on,

841
00:37:42,270 --> 00:37:42,960
and so forth.

842
00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:45,060
And there was this
very distopian text

843
00:37:45,060 --> 00:37:48,810
that we read about that
was a Schrape text,

844
00:37:48,810 --> 00:37:50,470
and we were thinking
gamification

845
00:37:50,470 --> 00:37:55,270
that was linking gamification
with control, governance,

846
00:37:55,270 --> 00:37:57,760
surveyance at some extent.

847
00:37:57,760 --> 00:37:59,630
And then that there
was your text,

848
00:37:59,630 --> 00:38:04,310
so I don't know where you rate
yourself on the scale of utopia

849
00:38:04,310 --> 00:38:06,140
and dystopia.

850
00:38:06,140 --> 00:38:10,630
I felt you were in between
trying to compromise all this,

851
00:38:10,630 --> 00:38:14,329
but maybe I'm wrong.

852
00:38:14,329 --> 00:38:15,870
SEBASTIAN DETERDING:
Multiple things.

853
00:38:15,870 --> 00:38:20,720
So A, I am aware
that I am, myself,

854
00:38:20,720 --> 00:38:23,170
in place there, because
I have my own politics.

855
00:38:23,170 --> 00:38:24,090
I have my own values.

856
00:38:24,090 --> 00:38:25,492
I just tried to be
explicit to compensate.

857
00:38:25,492 --> 00:38:27,700
Listen, this is the background
from which I'm coming.

858
00:38:27,700 --> 00:38:30,070
And viewed through this
lens, this is what I see.

859
00:38:30,070 --> 00:38:31,245
If you look through
a different lens,

860
00:38:31,245 --> 00:38:32,453
you might see something else.

861
00:38:32,453 --> 00:38:36,570
So therefore, I say, I'm
personally a bit more

862
00:38:36,570 --> 00:38:39,340
interested in play than games,
although [INAUDIBLE] games

863
00:38:39,340 --> 00:38:41,980
are structures that
[INAUDIBLE] place,

864
00:38:41,980 --> 00:38:45,410
that they're not
unimportant as that.

865
00:38:45,410 --> 00:38:48,210
But it's the same way
as you say ultimately.

866
00:38:48,210 --> 00:38:50,660
It's men hammering and
hammer, hammering and nails,

867
00:38:50,660 --> 00:38:52,900
but it's still nice to have
a hammer to do something

868
00:38:52,900 --> 00:38:53,858
to do with [INAUDIBLE].

869
00:38:53,858 --> 00:38:56,490
So even if a play's
important, and in the end

870
00:38:56,490 --> 00:38:58,730
you want the hammer, but
the nail in the wall,

871
00:38:58,730 --> 00:39:01,804
it's nice if you have
a game to afford play,

872
00:39:01,804 --> 00:39:05,280
because that usually
makes things easier.

873
00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:07,330
So in that sense,
in that spectrum,

874
00:39:07,330 --> 00:39:09,010
I'm sort of in the negative.

875
00:39:09,010 --> 00:39:11,090
And then definitely,
in terms of my values,

876
00:39:11,090 --> 00:39:13,018
I come from virtue
ethical errors

877
00:39:13,018 --> 00:39:14,312
to the [INAUDIBLE] perspective.

878
00:39:14,312 --> 00:39:16,020
So the question, what
is the [INAUDIBLE]?

879
00:39:16,020 --> 00:39:18,453
I just think this is my framing.

880
00:39:18,453 --> 00:39:20,317
And viewed through
that framing, I

881
00:39:20,317 --> 00:39:24,632
think, play presents as a
vision of how living could be

882
00:39:24,632 --> 00:39:27,410
and what we should aspire to.

883
00:39:27,410 --> 00:39:29,260
And other people might
have other's points.

884
00:39:29,260 --> 00:39:32,088
So I wouldn't view myself
as Utopian or dystopian.

885
00:39:32,088 --> 00:39:34,080
It's just I have
a view for this.

886
00:39:34,080 --> 00:39:36,530
I think there is potential.

887
00:39:36,530 --> 00:39:40,846
The big issue for me, as I
said, I also design [INAUDIBLE].

888
00:39:40,846 --> 00:39:42,530
And parallel to
studying this stuff,

889
00:39:42,530 --> 00:39:45,290
I've been running around,
doing workshops, or actually

890
00:39:45,290 --> 00:39:49,865
designing work with companies,
like BMW, the motor company who

891
00:39:49,865 --> 00:39:53,810
said, can you gamify for
assembly training for us?

892
00:39:53,810 --> 00:39:56,240
OK.

893
00:39:56,240 --> 00:39:59,641
And that drove my interest.

894
00:39:59,641 --> 00:40:02,300
Is there a way of
doing this right?

895
00:40:02,300 --> 00:40:04,466
Is there something we can
actually learn from games?

896
00:40:04,466 --> 00:40:07,140
And I think that is the case.

897
00:40:07,140 --> 00:40:12,970
It's just not what the
current popular conception

898
00:40:12,970 --> 00:40:17,124
of game indication presents as
what we can learn in the case.

899
00:40:17,124 --> 00:40:18,914
Those are just two
different things.

900
00:40:21,500 --> 00:40:25,940
When I now come into an
executive board room,

901
00:40:25,940 --> 00:40:28,967
basically three years ago,
the challenge was games?

902
00:40:28,967 --> 00:40:30,630
What are you even doing?

903
00:40:30,630 --> 00:40:35,470
So making people understand the
concept versus the potential.

904
00:40:35,470 --> 00:40:38,550
Now the issue is banks to
immediately [INAUDIBLE]

905
00:40:38,550 --> 00:40:39,615
of the concept.

906
00:40:39,615 --> 00:40:41,730
That therefore, they
all have already

907
00:40:41,730 --> 00:40:43,680
an existing preconception
of what this means.

908
00:40:43,680 --> 00:40:44,916
Oh, fee [INAUDIBLE].

909
00:40:44,916 --> 00:40:45,416
Yeah, sure.

910
00:40:45,416 --> 00:40:46,389
More of that.

911
00:40:46,389 --> 00:40:48,180
And then you have to
break that conception.

912
00:40:48,180 --> 00:40:50,560
Say yeah, I know, but
that's also something,

913
00:40:50,560 --> 00:40:54,210
but that's not what you
actually can learn from games.

914
00:40:54,210 --> 00:40:58,660
So that's my perception
on this issue.

915
00:40:58,660 --> 00:40:59,620
So questions?

916
00:40:59,620 --> 00:41:01,127
I had a couple of
initial questions

917
00:41:01,127 --> 00:41:02,210
from the text [INAUDIBLE].

918
00:41:02,210 --> 00:41:04,949
I've clustered them into
three clusters for me

919
00:41:04,949 --> 00:41:05,990
that we could go through.

920
00:41:05,990 --> 00:41:07,781
But other questions,
as I was talking-- I'm

921
00:41:07,781 --> 00:41:09,397
just starting
collecting, and then we

922
00:41:09,397 --> 00:41:12,180
give them to a [INAUDIBLE]
other questions

923
00:41:12,180 --> 00:41:15,640
that popped up for you.

924
00:41:15,640 --> 00:41:16,390
It's late, I know.

925
00:41:16,390 --> 00:41:18,806
GABRIELLE TREPANIER JOBIN:
Perhaps it's better if we group

926
00:41:18,806 --> 00:41:19,830
them in categories?

927
00:41:19,830 --> 00:41:20,310
SEBASTIAN DETERDING: Yeah.

928
00:41:20,310 --> 00:41:21,270
I would do that.

929
00:41:21,270 --> 00:41:23,822
Or if you need energy,
we can do a little game

930
00:41:23,822 --> 00:41:26,550
to get the energy going.

931
00:41:26,550 --> 00:41:28,390
Happy to do so.

932
00:41:28,390 --> 00:41:29,290
I was serious.

933
00:41:32,160 --> 00:41:34,210
GABRIELLE TREPANIER-JOBIN:
I have many questions.

934
00:41:34,210 --> 00:41:35,560
SEBASTIAN DETERDING: OK.

935
00:41:35,560 --> 00:41:36,460
So here's a thing.

936
00:41:36,460 --> 00:41:41,230
I actually would suggest
doing that, if you're all OK.

937
00:41:41,230 --> 00:41:42,564
If you don't want to, it's fine.

938
00:41:42,564 --> 00:41:44,021
You can just sit
here, but in order

939
00:41:44,021 --> 00:41:46,100
to get the energy up,
because it's actually late,

940
00:41:46,100 --> 00:41:48,147
I suggest all of us
go out on the floor

941
00:41:48,147 --> 00:41:50,159
for two minutes at most.

942
00:41:50,159 --> 00:41:50,868
That's all I ask.

943
00:41:50,868 --> 00:41:52,700
And again, if you don't
want to participate,

944
00:41:52,700 --> 00:41:53,630
it's perfectly fine.

945
00:41:53,630 --> 00:41:56,400
GABRIELLE TREPANIER-JOBIN: It's
their spontaneous reactions

946
00:41:56,400 --> 00:41:58,690
to what has been said,
because it was slightly

947
00:41:58,690 --> 00:41:59,990
different than what we read.

948
00:41:59,990 --> 00:42:00,610
SEBASTIAN DETERDING: I know.

949
00:42:00,610 --> 00:42:02,420
GABRIELLE TREPANIER JOBIN:
And perhaps that's why.

950
00:42:02,420 --> 00:42:03,750
SEBASTIAN DETERDING: I know.

951
00:42:03,750 --> 00:42:04,570
GABRIELLE TREPANIER-JOBIN:
We can also

952
00:42:04,570 --> 00:42:06,260
ask you questions
about the readings.

953
00:42:06,260 --> 00:42:07,195
SEBASTIAN DETERDING: You
can ask me all kinds.

954
00:42:07,195 --> 00:42:09,385
So the three questions I
took out of the readings,

955
00:42:09,385 --> 00:42:11,642
and I'll just list them as
far as I understood them,

956
00:42:11,642 --> 00:42:15,040
and then you can add
ad libitum, and we'll

957
00:42:15,040 --> 00:42:16,570
start a discussion about this.

958
00:42:16,570 --> 00:42:30,010
The first one is just when
is a game slash gamification?

959
00:42:30,010 --> 00:42:32,325
It's really this
definitional debate.

960
00:42:32,325 --> 00:42:33,700
Is it still the
game [INAUDIBLE],

961
00:42:33,700 --> 00:42:35,110
or is this already gamification?

962
00:42:35,110 --> 00:42:37,470
Or when starts gamification
flipping through a game?

963
00:42:37,470 --> 00:42:39,584
That was part of the questions.

964
00:42:39,584 --> 00:42:41,000
The other one was
this yeah, yeah.

965
00:42:41,000 --> 00:42:42,833
There's all this criticism
about this thing.

966
00:42:42,833 --> 00:42:54,620
But what is good, as
in useful, actually

967
00:42:54,620 --> 00:43:00,220
applicable learning from
games slash gamification?

968
00:43:00,220 --> 00:43:04,250
So is there-- this
is all criticism.

969
00:43:04,250 --> 00:43:07,320
Is there actually a way of
[INAUDIBLE] the situation

970
00:43:07,320 --> 00:43:09,320
in which it can be used?

971
00:43:09,320 --> 00:43:12,410
Maybe just a specific audience
and get the audience's change

972
00:43:12,410 --> 00:43:14,950
based on more peole get used
to games, and stuff like that.

973
00:43:14,950 --> 00:43:17,730
And the third
question is basically,

974
00:43:17,730 --> 00:43:19,055
I don't know who that was.

975
00:43:19,055 --> 00:43:20,888
Somebody said, can I
use that in my startup?

976
00:43:20,888 --> 00:43:22,720
I know it's very
risky, but you pretend

977
00:43:22,720 --> 00:43:23,870
like there's a question.

978
00:43:23,870 --> 00:43:25,270
It follows from the other.

979
00:43:25,270 --> 00:43:27,892
Can I use it, or
when can I use it?

980
00:43:30,598 --> 00:43:31,500
When can I use it?

981
00:43:31,500 --> 00:43:32,580
So those are the three.

982
00:43:32,580 --> 00:43:35,320
If you feel misrepresented
or left out, let me know.

983
00:43:35,320 --> 00:43:37,120
Or if you feel no,
based on this one

984
00:43:37,120 --> 00:43:39,220
here, or now that
I wrote them down,

985
00:43:39,220 --> 00:43:40,715
other stuff comes to your head.

986
00:43:40,715 --> 00:43:42,090
So we'll just
collect a good one.

987
00:43:42,090 --> 00:43:42,200
Yeah?

988
00:43:42,200 --> 00:43:44,536
AUDIENCE: I was just curious
with the [INAUDIBLE] space

989
00:43:44,536 --> 00:43:47,500
you had made earlier
between the styles.

990
00:43:47,500 --> 00:43:52,490
Is there anything that exists in
the other two quadrants really?

991
00:43:52,490 --> 00:43:54,640
[INAUDIBLE] something's
on the line,

992
00:43:54,640 --> 00:43:56,220
but so there isn't
anything between?

993
00:43:56,220 --> 00:43:57,240
SEBASTIAN DETERDING:
That's a very quick one.

994
00:43:57,240 --> 00:43:59,210
Yes, there are two,
but they're outliers.

995
00:43:59,210 --> 00:44:07,440
So if this was liminal-- so
basically reproducing society,

996
00:44:07,440 --> 00:44:10,370
and this was
liminoid, questioning

997
00:44:10,370 --> 00:44:12,625
being outside of society.

998
00:44:12,625 --> 00:44:15,380
And this one here
is [INAUDIBLE].

999
00:44:15,380 --> 00:44:17,910
So this is games, whether it
be [INAUDIBLE], and rules,

1000
00:44:17,910 --> 00:44:19,600
and feedback, and stuff.

1001
00:44:19,600 --> 00:44:22,725
And this is [INAUDIBLE],
so this is free play.

1002
00:44:22,725 --> 00:44:25,593
Everything should be Lego.

1003
00:44:25,593 --> 00:44:28,150
And as you said, there's
the big cluster here,

1004
00:44:28,150 --> 00:44:31,280
and there's the
big cluster here.

1005
00:44:31,280 --> 00:44:36,950
There is one cluster
here that's basically

1006
00:44:36,950 --> 00:44:41,440
Ian Bogost and a
couple of other people.

1007
00:44:41,440 --> 00:44:44,510
And then there's
this cluster here,

1008
00:44:44,510 --> 00:44:47,106
which would be called
industrial playfulness.

1009
00:44:50,536 --> 00:44:52,410
This classic procedural
rhetoric is basically

1010
00:44:52,410 --> 00:44:54,732
we can use games,
with a capital G

1011
00:44:54,732 --> 00:44:58,284
as systems to model other
broken systems in society.

1012
00:44:58,284 --> 00:45:01,042
This is how airport
security is programmed.

1013
00:45:01,042 --> 00:45:02,570
This is why
immigration's broken.

1014
00:45:02,570 --> 00:45:06,180
However, you make a system
in order to make an argument

1015
00:45:06,180 --> 00:45:09,800
and invite people
to see how the way

1016
00:45:09,800 --> 00:45:13,060
this game models a
piece of society.

1017
00:45:13,060 --> 00:45:15,810
Fits, or it doesn't fit my
mental model of that, how

1018
00:45:15,810 --> 00:45:17,562
that piece of society works.

1019
00:45:17,562 --> 00:45:20,150
And me negotiating that
clash between well,

1020
00:45:20,150 --> 00:45:22,002
I thought airport
security works this way.

1021
00:45:22,002 --> 00:45:23,689
This thing drove me that way.

1022
00:45:23,689 --> 00:45:24,855
How do I make sense of that?

1023
00:45:24,855 --> 00:45:29,396
Based on that clashing, you
start thinking about society,

1024
00:45:29,396 --> 00:45:31,020
and then maybe come
to a different idea

1025
00:45:31,020 --> 00:45:33,111
or come to criticizing yourself.

1026
00:45:33,111 --> 00:45:35,030
So this is basically
a version that's

1027
00:45:35,030 --> 00:45:37,806
deeply critic or
liminoid in its politics,

1028
00:45:37,806 --> 00:45:40,596
but still says let's
use games for that.

1029
00:45:40,596 --> 00:45:43,260
The other one in that corner,
industrial playfulness, these

1030
00:45:43,260 --> 00:45:47,204
are things like innovation
games or game storming.

1031
00:45:47,204 --> 00:45:48,370
Here's a recent [INAUDIBLE].

1032
00:45:48,370 --> 00:45:51,990
These are people in design
agencies like IDEO or Frog

1033
00:45:51,990 --> 00:45:56,296
saying, we can use the
playful activities,

1034
00:45:56,296 --> 00:45:59,150
ways of structuring
processes in order

1035
00:45:59,150 --> 00:46:02,665
to reliantly produce creativity.

1036
00:46:02,665 --> 00:46:05,019
The great thing about
design agencies,

1037
00:46:05,019 --> 00:46:06,560
and I've worked with
a couple of them

1038
00:46:06,560 --> 00:46:14,470
is that they can promise
enterprises to produce

1039
00:46:14,470 --> 00:46:16,630
innovation accountively.

1040
00:46:16,630 --> 00:46:18,490
You give us x amount of money.

1041
00:46:18,490 --> 00:46:21,395
And in y amount of weeks,
we have produced that amount

1042
00:46:21,395 --> 00:46:23,600
of [INAUDIBLE].

1043
00:46:23,600 --> 00:46:24,935
And we use playfulness.

1044
00:46:24,935 --> 00:46:27,260
We use yellow rooms, and
we use brainstorming,

1045
00:46:27,260 --> 00:46:31,160
and we do these silly design
exercises in order to do so.

1046
00:46:31,160 --> 00:46:34,720
That's very much used
in play, but very

1047
00:46:34,720 --> 00:46:37,664
much for existing structures.

1048
00:46:37,664 --> 00:46:38,330
Other questions?

1049
00:46:44,006 --> 00:46:45,905
GABRIELLE TREPANIER-JOBIN:
Well, I have one.

1050
00:46:45,905 --> 00:46:48,940
I wanted to talk a bit about
gamification in workplaces,

1051
00:46:48,940 --> 00:46:52,420
because I think that a lot of
students raise these questions

1052
00:46:52,420 --> 00:46:54,410
and on the forum.

1053
00:46:54,410 --> 00:46:56,840
In your text, in
rethinking unification,

1054
00:46:56,840 --> 00:47:02,320
you say that most of the
gamification practices

1055
00:47:02,320 --> 00:47:05,900
and workplaces disregard
the context in which people

1056
00:47:05,900 --> 00:47:08,250
come to play and
ignore that play is

1057
00:47:08,250 --> 00:47:10,610
supposed to be a voluntary act.

1058
00:47:10,610 --> 00:47:13,510
So you mentioned that
forcing workers to play

1059
00:47:13,510 --> 00:47:16,590
decreases that positive
feeling of performance,

1060
00:47:16,590 --> 00:47:20,250
and that having to play
in an appropriate context

1061
00:47:20,250 --> 00:47:23,180
can lead to
embarrassment, right?

1062
00:47:23,180 --> 00:47:27,020
So I think I was not the
only one to ask myself,

1063
00:47:27,020 --> 00:47:29,750
does it mean that gamification
techniques should never

1064
00:47:29,750 --> 00:47:31,200
be used in the workplaces?

1065
00:47:31,200 --> 00:47:36,380
Is the work context not
suitable for gamification?

1066
00:47:36,380 --> 00:47:41,690
Or can gamification be
optional in a workplace?

1067
00:47:41,690 --> 00:47:45,710
I think that Ryan--
not Ryan-- Shawn,

1068
00:47:45,710 --> 00:47:47,670
he had this similar question.

1069
00:47:47,670 --> 00:47:49,900
I don't know if you
want to elaborate on it.

1070
00:47:49,900 --> 00:47:51,020
AUDIENCE: Oh, yeah.

1071
00:47:51,020 --> 00:47:57,140
I was just disheartened reading
even a somewhat feeble attempt

1072
00:47:57,140 --> 00:47:58,977
to incorporate gamification--

1073
00:47:58,977 --> 00:48:00,200
SEBASTIAN DETERDING: Yeah.

1074
00:48:00,200 --> 00:48:03,379
AUDIENCE: --so as far as
the worker's reception went.

1075
00:48:03,379 --> 00:48:05,490
And I was wondering,
is there a way

1076
00:48:05,490 --> 00:48:10,440
to include playful elements,
like an opt in strategy?

1077
00:48:10,440 --> 00:48:12,732
Because I would
enjoy a playful work

1078
00:48:12,732 --> 00:48:15,970
environment, or
that sort of thing

1079
00:48:15,970 --> 00:48:18,770
that they see as
an electronic web.

1080
00:48:18,770 --> 00:48:20,150
SEBASTIAN DETERDING: OK.

1081
00:48:20,150 --> 00:48:23,810
I would tease out
two things there.

1082
00:48:23,810 --> 00:48:27,920
That is I always like to use
the technical term, autonomy,

1083
00:48:27,920 --> 00:48:30,242
because it has an
established meaning.

1084
00:48:30,242 --> 00:48:31,950
There is an established
theory behind it,

1085
00:48:31,950 --> 00:48:35,951
and psychology was voluntaryist,
freedom; very overdetermined

1086
00:48:35,951 --> 00:48:36,450
[INAUDIBLE].

1087
00:48:36,450 --> 00:48:39,480
This one, I use it, and then
I point to a certain theory,

1088
00:48:39,480 --> 00:48:42,140
and that's why I prefer that
term and to talk about this.

1089
00:48:42,140 --> 00:48:43,810
And autonomy is
still a muddled mess,

1090
00:48:43,810 --> 00:48:45,322
in terms of work life and games.

1091
00:48:45,322 --> 00:48:46,190
Can we go to that?

1092
00:48:46,190 --> 00:48:52,570
And then the second one,
can we learn from games

1093
00:48:52,570 --> 00:48:57,950
in the work place in general?

1094
00:48:57,950 --> 00:49:00,966
So disregarding the
voluntaryist issue,

1095
00:49:00,966 --> 00:49:05,880
are there ways in which we could
make life and work anonymous?

1096
00:49:05,880 --> 00:49:08,730
Let's speak about the
autonomy one first.

1097
00:49:08,730 --> 00:49:16,570
There is this interesting
early book, Julian Dibbell,

1098
00:49:16,570 --> 00:49:18,520
games journalist who
now became a lawyer.

1099
00:49:18,520 --> 00:49:21,490
Before time, he was a great
journalist in the late '90s,

1100
00:49:21,490 --> 00:49:25,120
looking at all the online games
craze, and he wrote a book.

1101
00:49:25,120 --> 00:49:28,466
Rape in Cyberspace, and
all these kind of books.

1102
00:49:28,466 --> 00:49:30,215
So it was in plain
money, how he basically

1103
00:49:30,215 --> 00:49:33,670
made a living with designing
virtual [INAUDIBLE] space.

1104
00:49:33,670 --> 00:49:37,460
And he noticed he was one of
the first Western observers

1105
00:49:37,460 --> 00:49:41,205
who sold gold farmers.

1106
00:49:41,205 --> 00:49:43,080
For those who are not
familiar with the term,

1107
00:49:43,080 --> 00:49:46,050
gold farmers are basically
people, supposedly always

1108
00:49:46,050 --> 00:49:47,100
Chinese gold farmers.

1109
00:49:47,100 --> 00:49:48,475
And then there
are other articles

1110
00:49:48,475 --> 00:49:50,760
saying that's stereotyping,
because we also

1111
00:49:50,760 --> 00:49:53,950
find in other places--
anyhow, Chinese gold farmers

1112
00:49:53,950 --> 00:50:00,240
are people who level up
characters or win virtual items

1113
00:50:00,240 --> 00:50:01,712
in games for a living.

1114
00:50:01,712 --> 00:50:04,955
And so I gain a powerful
sword in World of Warcraft,

1115
00:50:04,955 --> 00:50:08,260
and then I sell it
to other people.

1116
00:50:08,260 --> 00:50:11,860
And usually, these kind of gold
farmers themselves don't do it,

1117
00:50:11,860 --> 00:50:14,610
but it's other people
hiring poor people

1118
00:50:14,610 --> 00:50:17,840
off the street in China,
young people to basically play

1119
00:50:17,840 --> 00:50:18,590
World of Warcraft.

1120
00:50:18,590 --> 00:50:23,521
It's day by day, and day in, day
out in 20 hour shifts or more,

1121
00:50:23,521 --> 00:50:24,530
and just sleep.

1122
00:50:24,530 --> 00:50:29,320
They go back and
play as a waged war.

1123
00:50:29,320 --> 00:50:31,380
So the more gold you
play, the [INAUDIBLE]

1124
00:50:31,380 --> 00:50:36,740
played for the virtual
gold in real money, which

1125
00:50:36,740 --> 00:50:40,246
is a classic form of peace work
which other people, if you've

1126
00:50:40,246 --> 00:50:42,610
ever done peace work in
an actual assembly line,

1127
00:50:42,610 --> 00:50:46,262
so you know that's pretty
excruciating as an activity.

1128
00:50:48,960 --> 00:50:50,900
And he found two weird things.

1129
00:50:50,900 --> 00:50:53,630
A, he said, they were playing.

1130
00:50:53,630 --> 00:50:55,470
They were working in this game.

1131
00:50:55,470 --> 00:50:57,615
And according to
standard theory,

1132
00:50:57,615 --> 00:50:59,545
the should have hated
every minute of it,

1133
00:50:59,545 --> 00:51:00,295
working this game.

1134
00:51:00,295 --> 00:51:03,260
But it seemed pretty
playful at times.

1135
00:51:03,260 --> 00:51:05,080
At times, it also
seems pretty stressed.

1136
00:51:05,080 --> 00:51:08,230
But at times, they were still
playful in that context.

1137
00:51:08,230 --> 00:51:10,610
And then he said
the weirdest thing

1138
00:51:10,610 --> 00:51:12,260
is when they handed
the day off, they

1139
00:51:12,260 --> 00:51:15,780
would hop into the
internet cafe next door

1140
00:51:15,780 --> 00:51:19,666
and play games-- the same games.

1141
00:51:19,666 --> 00:51:22,960
And so how can
that-- I'm puzzled.

1142
00:51:22,960 --> 00:51:25,605
I can't even make a story
to begin to make sense.

1143
00:51:25,605 --> 00:51:27,230
Why would they do
the thing voluntarily

1144
00:51:27,230 --> 00:51:29,080
that they were
forced to do there?

1145
00:51:29,080 --> 00:51:34,160
Why would the forced thing
sometimes still be fun to them?

1146
00:51:34,160 --> 00:51:36,917
And the part of the
argument, or part

1147
00:51:36,917 --> 00:51:38,375
of the way that
you psychologically

1148
00:51:38,375 --> 00:51:40,530
can tease that out
is say that autonomy

1149
00:51:40,530 --> 00:51:42,880
has a lot to do with
your internal perception

1150
00:51:42,880 --> 00:51:45,560
of the situation.

1151
00:51:45,560 --> 00:51:47,720
That is if in the
moment you feel

1152
00:51:47,720 --> 00:51:49,871
like this is what I
want to do, I currently

1153
00:51:49,871 --> 00:51:51,610
feel like doing this.

1154
00:51:51,610 --> 00:51:53,967
And so therefore, I enjoy this.

1155
00:51:53,967 --> 00:51:55,050
This is what I want to do.

1156
00:51:55,050 --> 00:51:56,800
You don't have to force
yourself to do it.

1157
00:51:56,800 --> 00:51:59,400
It feels like this is a
true expression of yourself.

1158
00:51:59,400 --> 00:52:01,555
And so therefore,
it feels autonomous.

1159
00:52:01,555 --> 00:52:05,995
if you go to a cloister
for a six week retreat,

1160
00:52:05,995 --> 00:52:08,370
and somebody tells you at 6:00
AM in the morning, get up.

1161
00:52:08,370 --> 00:52:10,903
Sweet the stairs, because
that's part of your retreat.

1162
00:52:10,903 --> 00:52:13,221
If you then think about
I actually put myself

1163
00:52:13,221 --> 00:52:16,240
into this oyster, and
I want to do this,

1164
00:52:16,240 --> 00:52:19,272
and I know it's a good thing--
you might still go-- mm.

1165
00:52:19,272 --> 00:52:21,230
But you feel this is an
expression of yourself,

1166
00:52:21,230 --> 00:52:22,813
and you still feel
that certainly this

1167
00:52:22,813 --> 00:52:24,062
is a voluntary act.

1168
00:52:24,062 --> 00:52:25,962
This is still an autonomous act.

1169
00:52:25,962 --> 00:52:29,620
And you might still find
a way of getting absorbed

1170
00:52:29,620 --> 00:52:31,440
in the activity of
[INAUDIBLE], and then

1171
00:52:31,440 --> 00:52:33,880
you forget the fact that
you're actually tired.

1172
00:52:33,880 --> 00:52:37,175
So the degree to which
I perceive myself

1173
00:52:37,175 --> 00:52:41,480
that this is currently
an outflow of my goals,

1174
00:52:41,480 --> 00:52:44,710
wants, and my
identity is chiefly

1175
00:52:44,710 --> 00:52:47,232
responsible to whether this
is autonomous or not for me,

1176
00:52:47,232 --> 00:52:50,970
as an experience, which is
something that [INAUDIBLE]

1177
00:52:50,970 --> 00:52:53,135
and [INAUDIBLE],
author of [INAUDIBLE].

1178
00:52:53,135 --> 00:52:56,920
One of the core books in
game studies [INAUDIBLE]

1179
00:52:56,920 --> 00:52:59,890
has found where he said
even in concentration camps,

1180
00:52:59,890 --> 00:53:02,040
people could be absorbed
in the activity.

1181
00:53:02,040 --> 00:53:05,740
People could feel a degree
of control, voluntarism

1182
00:53:05,740 --> 00:53:08,090
in autonomy, because
they chose how

1183
00:53:08,090 --> 00:53:10,295
to deal with the task that
were prescribed to them.

1184
00:53:10,295 --> 00:53:11,836
Even if they work
for the [INAUDIBLE]

1185
00:53:11,836 --> 00:53:13,740
that lent in their
ultimate demise.

1186
00:53:13,740 --> 00:53:15,815
So it's this what
internal stance do

1187
00:53:15,815 --> 00:53:18,530
I take to what's my situation?

1188
00:53:18,530 --> 00:53:22,490
So it's not that because
workplace, therefore,

1189
00:53:22,490 --> 00:53:24,380
obligatory context,
that are therefore

1190
00:53:24,380 --> 00:53:26,720
necessary in autonomous.

1191
00:53:26,720 --> 00:53:28,720
It's how do I
perceive this to be

1192
00:53:28,720 --> 00:53:34,080
an outflow of my personal self?

1193
00:53:34,080 --> 00:53:36,195
And there's been
research, especially

1194
00:53:36,195 --> 00:53:41,020
in education how people can
facilitate an autonomous

1195
00:53:41,020 --> 00:53:44,190
orientation towards an activity,
even in the mandatory context,

1196
00:53:44,190 --> 00:53:45,660
like school.

1197
00:53:45,660 --> 00:53:48,810
There's stuff teachers can do
to tell the students, listen.

1198
00:53:48,810 --> 00:53:50,720
I know the next
exercise is shitty.

1199
00:53:50,720 --> 00:53:52,850
Sorry for that.

1200
00:53:52,850 --> 00:53:56,240
Here is why doing this is still
useful and helpful for you

1201
00:53:56,240 --> 00:53:57,816
personally.

1202
00:53:57,816 --> 00:54:01,202
And I would ask you to do it,
because it's helpful for you;

1203
00:54:01,202 --> 00:54:03,680
asking permission,
explaining why,

1204
00:54:03,680 --> 00:54:07,330
acknowledging that it's
tedious-- all these giving me

1205
00:54:07,330 --> 00:54:09,240
free options how
to do it, with whom

1206
00:54:09,240 --> 00:54:11,310
to do it, how to
approach the problem;

1207
00:54:11,310 --> 00:54:13,000
lots of ways in which
you can structure

1208
00:54:13,000 --> 00:54:16,666
an obligatory situation to
still be autonomous [INAUDIBLE].

1209
00:54:16,666 --> 00:54:18,821
So it's a complicated
psychological thing

1210
00:54:18,821 --> 00:54:20,195
that has a lot to
do with what is

1211
00:54:20,195 --> 00:54:21,920
my internal stance towards it?

1212
00:54:21,920 --> 00:54:23,850
But there's a lot
of design things

1213
00:54:23,850 --> 00:54:27,522
around the social
situations we still can do,

1214
00:54:27,522 --> 00:54:28,980
which leads us to
the second thing.

1215
00:54:28,980 --> 00:54:30,979
Is there things we can
learn from games in order

1216
00:54:30,979 --> 00:54:33,460
to make a work
environment playful?

1217
00:54:33,460 --> 00:54:37,740
As I said, with the sleds, I
looked into their research,

1218
00:54:37,740 --> 00:54:40,920
because I was invited to
give a talk at a conference

1219
00:54:40,920 --> 00:54:43,510
about office furniture.

1220
00:54:43,510 --> 00:54:46,540
They wanted to gamify
office furniture.

1221
00:54:46,540 --> 00:54:47,291
Sure.

1222
00:54:47,291 --> 00:54:48,790
And so I looked
into the whole thing

1223
00:54:48,790 --> 00:54:51,560
and said, how do people gamify
offices and office furniture?

1224
00:54:51,560 --> 00:54:55,740
And notice that it's actually a
big trend, the playful office.

1225
00:54:55,740 --> 00:54:58,120
And if I say playful office,
just what are you thinking?

1226
00:54:58,120 --> 00:55:00,080
What images jumps to your mind?

1227
00:55:00,080 --> 00:55:01,283
Playful office.

1228
00:55:01,283 --> 00:55:02,190
AUDIENCE: Google.

1229
00:55:02,190 --> 00:55:02,740
SEBASTIAN DETERDING: Google.

1230
00:55:02,740 --> 00:55:04,176
AUDIENCE: Nerf
guns in the office.

1231
00:55:04,176 --> 00:55:05,020
SEBASTIAN DETERDING:
Nerf guns in the office.

1232
00:55:05,020 --> 00:55:06,400
What else?

1233
00:55:06,400 --> 00:55:07,340
AUDIENCE: Ping pong?

1234
00:55:07,340 --> 00:55:07,685
SEBASTIAN DETERDING: Ping pong?

1235
00:55:07,685 --> 00:55:08,865
AUDIENCE: Ping
pong in the office.

1236
00:55:08,865 --> 00:55:10,210
SEBASTIAN DETERDING:
Ping pong in the office.

1237
00:55:10,210 --> 00:55:10,834
Yes, what else?

1238
00:55:10,834 --> 00:55:14,730
AUDIENCE: Insert fun
thing in the office.

1239
00:55:14,730 --> 00:55:18,396
Bean bag chairs and other
horrible-for-your-back

1240
00:55:18,396 --> 00:55:18,896
furniture.

1241
00:55:18,896 --> 00:55:20,180
SEBASTIAN DETERDING: Yeah.

1242
00:55:20,180 --> 00:55:20,740
What else?

1243
00:55:23,349 --> 00:55:25,265
Playful office, just off
the top of your head.

1244
00:55:25,265 --> 00:55:27,045
AUDIENCE: Free food everywhere.

1245
00:55:27,045 --> 00:55:28,921
AUDIENCE: Weird looking,
ergonomic furniture.

1246
00:55:28,921 --> 00:55:31,545
SEBASTIAN DETERDING: Not working
around my furniture, free food

1247
00:55:31,545 --> 00:55:32,337
everywhere, plants.

1248
00:55:32,337 --> 00:55:34,545
Yeah, plants are totally
important, even fake plants.

1249
00:55:34,545 --> 00:55:35,460
AUDIENCE: Scooters.

1250
00:55:35,460 --> 00:55:37,776
SEBASTIAN DETERDING:
Scooters, yes.

1251
00:55:37,776 --> 00:55:38,860
AUDIENCE: Friendly bosses.

1252
00:55:38,860 --> 00:55:40,400
SEBASTIAN DETERDING:
Friendly bosses?

1253
00:55:40,400 --> 00:55:42,255
Then we're getting
into different topics.

1254
00:55:42,255 --> 00:55:43,093
Yeah, exactly.

1255
00:55:43,093 --> 00:55:44,968
AUDIENCE: Very scary
company open work spaces

1256
00:55:44,968 --> 00:55:46,169
without cubicles.

1257
00:55:46,169 --> 00:55:47,960
SEBASTIAN DETERDING:
Yes, open work spaces.

1258
00:55:47,960 --> 00:55:50,750
The weird thing
about cubicles is

1259
00:55:50,750 --> 00:55:52,760
in terms of their
design history,

1260
00:55:52,760 --> 00:55:57,840
their point was to be free.

1261
00:55:57,840 --> 00:55:59,740
Back in the 1960s,
people started

1262
00:55:59,740 --> 00:56:01,475
working on designing
the cubicle,

1263
00:56:01,475 --> 00:56:05,260
and their point was to actually
create playful architecture.

1264
00:56:05,260 --> 00:56:08,010
Their point was to make
this is a way in which

1265
00:56:08,010 --> 00:56:11,545
individual workers,
without big effort,

1266
00:56:11,545 --> 00:56:14,115
could continue to redesign
the office to their own needs.

1267
00:56:14,115 --> 00:56:16,050
They would just take
the balls and rearrange

1268
00:56:16,050 --> 00:56:19,730
them to huddle their space
as they see fit for a project

1269
00:56:19,730 --> 00:56:22,000
or for individual close time.

1270
00:56:22,000 --> 00:56:23,750
Only then the corporations
discovered hey,

1271
00:56:23,750 --> 00:56:25,920
we can also use
cubicles to give people

1272
00:56:25,920 --> 00:56:28,170
a bit of sound,
and visual privacy,

1273
00:56:28,170 --> 00:56:30,580
and cram the most possible
people into the smallest

1274
00:56:30,580 --> 00:56:32,600
possible space.

1275
00:56:32,600 --> 00:56:34,940
Cubicles where initially
invented in order

1276
00:56:34,940 --> 00:56:36,430
to be a more free
and open office

1277
00:56:36,430 --> 00:56:39,000
work, and then they would reuse
the floor very differently,

1278
00:56:39,000 --> 00:56:41,580
which points to
an important part

1279
00:56:41,580 --> 00:56:44,940
this is what you put in there
as a design element is often not

1280
00:56:44,940 --> 00:56:48,220
so important as how
people use it in practice.

1281
00:56:48,220 --> 00:56:51,590
The practice is the way in which
people live something is just

1282
00:56:51,590 --> 00:56:54,510
as important as the things
you put into the office,

1283
00:56:54,510 --> 00:56:56,930
like bean bags.

1284
00:56:56,930 --> 00:56:57,430
So no.

1285
00:56:57,430 --> 00:56:58,638
All of these things are true.

1286
00:56:58,638 --> 00:57:01,290
Bean bags usually will find
everything that screams

1287
00:57:01,290 --> 00:57:04,570
playground; bright colors.

1288
00:57:04,570 --> 00:57:05,300
AUDIENCE: Slides.

1289
00:57:05,300 --> 00:57:08,430
SEBASTIAN DETERDING:
Slides, natural textures.

1290
00:57:08,430 --> 00:57:10,770
So you have fake
grass, real grass.

1291
00:57:10,770 --> 00:57:14,040
You have sand.

1292
00:57:14,040 --> 00:57:17,020
You have round shapes.

1293
00:57:17,020 --> 00:57:18,410
There will always
be round shapes

1294
00:57:18,410 --> 00:57:21,306
and all these kind of things--
things that look playful.

1295
00:57:21,306 --> 00:57:24,625
But structurally, if you ask
yourself what makes a toy?

1296
00:57:24,625 --> 00:57:28,890
What makes a good toy, or
the opposite of a good toy.

1297
00:57:28,890 --> 00:57:30,034
What makes a good toy?

1298
00:57:30,034 --> 00:57:30,700
Any suggestions?

1299
00:57:34,560 --> 00:57:36,500
What are toys that
you actually enjoy

1300
00:57:36,500 --> 00:57:39,586
toying around for a long,
long, long time ago?

1301
00:57:39,586 --> 00:57:40,086
Mhm?

1302
00:57:40,086 --> 00:57:41,230
AUDIENCE: Call of Duty?

1303
00:57:41,230 --> 00:57:42,688
SEBASTIAN DETERDING:
That's a game.

1304
00:57:42,688 --> 00:57:43,800
A toy.

1305
00:57:43,800 --> 00:57:45,625
Call of Duty can
be used as a toy.

1306
00:57:45,625 --> 00:57:46,520
We'll get to that.

1307
00:57:46,520 --> 00:57:48,220
AUDIENCE: Simple,
multi-purpose objects?

1308
00:57:48,220 --> 00:57:51,250
Kickballs, and shopping
lists, and buckets, and stuff

1309
00:57:51,250 --> 00:57:51,880
like that?

1310
00:57:51,880 --> 00:57:52,963
SEBASTIAN DETERDING: Yeah.

1311
00:57:52,963 --> 00:57:53,530
Wide shock.

1312
00:57:53,530 --> 00:57:56,070
GABRIELLE TREPANIER-JOBIN:
It stimulates creativity?

1313
00:57:56,070 --> 00:57:58,570
AUDIENCE: Because you can use
it for more than one thing.

1314
00:57:58,570 --> 00:58:00,160
SEBASTIAN DETERDING: You can
use it for more than one thing.

1315
00:58:00,160 --> 00:58:01,056
AUDIENCE: Because when
a teacher's not looking,

1316
00:58:01,056 --> 00:58:02,420
I could hit people with it.

1317
00:58:02,420 --> 00:58:04,669
But if it's still the other
stuff with it, [INAUDIBLE]

1318
00:58:04,669 --> 00:58:06,630
like oh.

1319
00:58:06,630 --> 00:58:08,971
SEBASTIAN DETERDING:
Other suggestions?

1320
00:58:08,971 --> 00:58:09,720
AUDIENCE: Nothing.

1321
00:58:09,720 --> 00:58:10,460
Nerf gun?

1322
00:58:10,460 --> 00:58:12,298
SEBASTIAN DETERDING: Why?

1323
00:58:12,298 --> 00:58:14,730
AUDIENCE: It's fun.

1324
00:58:14,730 --> 00:58:16,934
SEBASTIAN DETERDING:
What makes Nerf guns fun?

1325
00:58:16,934 --> 00:58:18,600
AUDIENCE: Give it to
a couple of people.

1326
00:58:18,600 --> 00:58:19,683
SEBASTIAN DETERDING: Yeah.

1327
00:58:19,683 --> 00:58:22,245
AUDIENCE: And then it
becomes fun, all of a sudden.

1328
00:58:22,245 --> 00:58:22,986
[LAUGHTER]

1329
00:58:22,986 --> 00:58:25,402
SEBASTIAN DETERDING: Again,
Nerf gun, as such, is not fun.

1330
00:58:25,402 --> 00:58:27,445
Fun is when the people actually
decide to go around and--

1331
00:58:27,445 --> 00:58:28,278
AUDIENCE: Oh, I see.

1332
00:58:28,278 --> 00:58:29,230
I see.

1333
00:58:29,230 --> 00:58:31,223
SEBASTIAN DETERDING:
And I would say

1334
00:58:31,223 --> 00:58:35,120
the Nerf gun invites people
to actually temporarily go out

1335
00:58:35,120 --> 00:58:37,140
of bounds and go out
of their regular rules.

1336
00:58:37,140 --> 00:58:39,690
So a lot of playing--

1337
00:58:39,690 --> 00:58:41,870
AUDIENCE: I was going
to say a Barbie doll.

1338
00:58:41,870 --> 00:58:42,390
SEBASTIAN DETERDING:
Barbie doll.

1339
00:58:42,390 --> 00:58:43,253
Why Barbie doll?

1340
00:58:43,253 --> 00:58:45,711
AUDIENCE: Because you could
basically do whatever you want.

1341
00:58:45,711 --> 00:58:46,919
You could play house with it.

1342
00:58:46,919 --> 00:58:48,610
You can make up a story with it.

1343
00:58:48,610 --> 00:58:51,350
You could act out going to work.

1344
00:58:51,350 --> 00:58:53,820
You can pretend that your
Barbie doll's having a wedding.

1345
00:58:53,820 --> 00:58:56,784
[INAUDIBLE] sort of thing.

1346
00:58:56,784 --> 00:59:00,590
AUDIENCE: I think it totally
solves the blank canvas

1347
00:59:00,590 --> 00:59:04,628
problem that involved-- if I
say I want to play something,

1348
00:59:04,628 --> 00:59:06,044
but I have nothing
in front of me,

1349
00:59:06,044 --> 00:59:08,969
I'm not going to be inspired
to do anything necessarily.

1350
00:59:08,969 --> 00:59:12,285
But if I have a toy, [INAUDIBLE]
it's a Barbie doll, oh.

1351
00:59:12,285 --> 00:59:12,995
It's a person.

1352
00:59:12,995 --> 00:59:14,174
I can pretend it's a person.

1353
00:59:14,174 --> 00:59:15,423
I can play like it's a person.

1354
00:59:15,423 --> 00:59:17,644
Or a Nerf gun gives
me, oh, it's a gun.

1355
00:59:17,644 --> 00:59:18,685
I can pretend it's a gun.

1356
00:59:18,685 --> 00:59:21,150
It gives me something
to work on though.

1357
00:59:21,150 --> 00:59:22,620
SEBASTIAN DETERDING: Mhm.

1358
00:59:22,620 --> 00:59:24,078
AUDIENCE: It's like
modular things.

1359
00:59:24,078 --> 00:59:25,119
It's like those K'nex.

1360
00:59:25,119 --> 00:59:26,160
SEBASTIAN DETERDING: Yep.

1361
00:59:26,160 --> 00:59:29,832
AUDIENCE: Little sheets, and
marbles, and things like that.

1362
00:59:29,832 --> 00:59:31,220
SEBASTIAN DETERDING: Yeah.

1363
00:59:31,220 --> 00:59:33,792
You teased out
very successfully,

1364
00:59:33,792 --> 00:59:34,696
the two [INAUDIBLE].

1365
00:59:34,696 --> 00:59:36,096
The one thing is it
involved a purpose.

1366
00:59:36,096 --> 00:59:36,972
It's underspecified.

1367
00:59:36,972 --> 00:59:39,670
It doesn't prescribe
one specific way

1368
00:59:39,670 --> 00:59:40,544
in which [INAUDIBLE].

1369
00:59:40,544 --> 00:59:43,664
Think about Fisher Price
will often [INAUDIBLE] toys.

1370
00:59:43,664 --> 00:59:45,487
They're the worst
possible toys imaginable.

1371
00:59:45,487 --> 00:59:46,945
They just have a
number of buttons,

1372
00:59:46,945 --> 00:59:48,111
and then you hit the button.

1373
00:59:48,111 --> 00:59:50,690
It makes a certain sound, or
it flashes a certain light.

1374
00:59:50,690 --> 00:59:52,401
And I discovered yeah,
that button always

1375
00:59:52,401 --> 00:59:53,234
produces that light.

1376
00:59:53,234 --> 00:59:54,800
That button always
produces that sound

1377
00:59:54,800 --> 00:59:56,920
until it becomes a social
experiment where you only

1378
00:59:56,920 --> 00:59:58,586
try to find out which
is the button that

1379
00:59:58,586 --> 01:00:00,880
annoys mom and dad [INAUDIBLE]?

1380
01:00:00,880 --> 01:00:02,300
That's fun.

1381
01:00:02,300 --> 01:00:04,600
The thing itself is
not necessarily fun,

1382
01:00:04,600 --> 01:00:05,780
so it's underspecified.

1383
01:00:05,780 --> 01:00:08,761
There are loads of different
things you can do with them,

1384
01:00:08,761 --> 01:00:11,700
and you can explore this
possibility space, which

1385
01:00:11,700 --> 01:00:14,108
is the possibly of space
in Legos, or in Barbies,

1386
01:00:14,108 --> 01:00:15,820
or in any other thing.

1387
01:00:15,820 --> 01:00:18,801
And in addition, it gives you a
constraint or a starting point.

1388
01:00:18,801 --> 01:00:20,605
It's not just a blank canvas.

1389
01:00:20,605 --> 01:00:23,740
It gives you a seed
for the exploration

1390
01:00:23,740 --> 01:00:26,587
of that [INAUDIBLE], whereas
most of these other spaces,

1391
01:00:26,587 --> 01:00:28,170
or like Fisher Price
toys [INAUDIBLE].

1392
01:00:28,170 --> 01:00:30,040
They look playful.

1393
01:00:30,040 --> 01:00:31,700
Colors, [INAUDIBLE] sleds.

1394
01:00:31,700 --> 01:00:34,080
But they are not an
underspecified possibility

1395
01:00:34,080 --> 01:00:34,906
space.

1396
01:00:34,906 --> 01:00:38,060
They are not things that you
can use in very many ways that

1397
01:00:38,060 --> 01:00:40,810
invite you to reuse,
and abuse, and jump

1398
01:00:40,810 --> 01:00:45,389
over existing [INAUDIBLE] how to
use this thing as you see fit.

1399
01:00:45,389 --> 01:00:47,680
And if you look into what
acclimates [INAUDIBLE] office

1400
01:00:47,680 --> 01:00:52,278
architecture, you find
stuff like actually, what's

1401
01:00:52,278 --> 01:00:54,470
the building-- building 20?

1402
01:00:54,470 --> 01:01:01,060
The historically famous
building where most of the MIT

1403
01:01:01,060 --> 01:01:02,885
innovations that you
were involved with--

1404
01:01:02,885 --> 01:01:03,510
AUDIENCE: Yeah.

1405
01:01:03,510 --> 01:01:05,408
Quite a different [INAUDIBLE].

1406
01:01:05,408 --> 01:01:06,866
SEBASTIAN DETERDING:
Yeah, exactly.

1407
01:01:06,866 --> 01:01:08,100
That building.

1408
01:01:08,100 --> 01:01:10,790
And when [INAUDIBLE],
some people here at MIT,

1409
01:01:10,790 --> 01:01:14,022
looked at what made that
thing such an incubator, apart

1410
01:01:14,022 --> 01:01:16,188
from the fact that it was
a collision space for lots

1411
01:01:16,188 --> 01:01:17,726
of people in
different disciplines,

1412
01:01:17,726 --> 01:01:20,622
they had no way but to bump
into each other the whole time.

1413
01:01:20,622 --> 01:01:23,640
The second thing is
it was a barrack.

1414
01:01:23,640 --> 01:01:25,580
And it was such a
run down barrack

1415
01:01:25,580 --> 01:01:27,655
that nobody cared if
you wanted to have

1416
01:01:27,655 --> 01:01:30,590
this big machine in there that
took three floors that you just

1417
01:01:30,590 --> 01:01:32,882
[INAUDIBLE] your balls
through, forced through,

1418
01:01:32,882 --> 01:01:34,505
which was that
everybody was doing it.

1419
01:01:34,505 --> 01:01:37,077
It was a modulous case that
everybody deems as they

1420
01:01:37,077 --> 01:01:41,138
see fit for weird things.

1421
01:01:41,138 --> 01:01:43,262
So the question, can we
learn from games for office

1422
01:01:43,262 --> 01:01:44,318
work to make it playful?

1423
01:01:44,318 --> 01:01:47,400
Well, if one of the
things that invites play

1424
01:01:47,400 --> 01:01:50,430
is an open possibility
space for exploration

1425
01:01:50,430 --> 01:01:53,260
where I get to choose
where it's autonomy

1426
01:01:53,260 --> 01:01:56,010
supported, because I have a
lot of choices what to do.

1427
01:01:56,010 --> 01:01:58,690
Give me an office space
that works like that.

1428
01:01:58,690 --> 01:02:02,520
Give me working rules
that are like that,

1429
01:02:02,520 --> 01:02:05,900
like results only
work environments.

1430
01:02:05,900 --> 01:02:07,910
I don't prescribe to
you how you do it.

1431
01:02:07,910 --> 01:02:10,972
I give you a goal, and you
choose who you want to do it,

1432
01:02:10,972 --> 01:02:12,388
how you want to
do it, et cetera .

1433
01:02:12,388 --> 01:02:14,320
If you feel that is too
little structure for you,

1434
01:02:14,320 --> 01:02:15,580
then the good game
designer would give you

1435
01:02:15,580 --> 01:02:17,190
a bit of scaffolding
and say, then

1436
01:02:17,190 --> 01:02:19,530
come back to me as a supervisor,
and I give you a tip.

1437
01:02:19,530 --> 01:02:21,860
But other than that, go out.

1438
01:02:21,860 --> 01:02:25,830
Just come back when
you have it done.

1439
01:02:25,830 --> 01:02:27,749
That would be one
of the many ways

1440
01:02:27,749 --> 01:02:29,290
you can learn from
games that are not

1441
01:02:29,290 --> 01:02:31,024
about having a feedback system.

1442
01:02:36,834 --> 01:02:38,466
AUDIENCE: I play a
lot of games, and we

1443
01:02:38,466 --> 01:02:42,970
move towards implementing trying
to make an exterior to the game

1444
01:02:42,970 --> 01:02:46,062
economist and things like
that, and trademark [INAUDIBLE]

1445
01:02:46,062 --> 01:02:48,765
exteriorly, and start to model
the real world in that sense.

1446
01:02:48,765 --> 01:02:51,370
What do you think
about a lot of that?

1447
01:02:51,370 --> 01:02:54,155
I think you gave it as the other
half of the equation, where you

1448
01:02:54,155 --> 01:02:56,540
take the real world into
the game, so to speak,

1449
01:02:56,540 --> 01:02:59,240
where people now
dish on commodities,

1450
01:02:59,240 --> 01:03:02,392
and so a form of betting is
they can't bet real world items.

1451
01:03:05,630 --> 01:03:07,892
SEBASTIAN DETERDING:
It's interesting.

1452
01:03:07,892 --> 01:03:09,850
It's the point where I
am then the sociologist,

1453
01:03:09,850 --> 01:03:11,160
and you start to notice.

1454
01:03:11,160 --> 01:03:18,720
We have certain cultural notions
about what games all should be,

1455
01:03:18,720 --> 01:03:20,245
a traditionally
modern notion, which

1456
01:03:20,245 --> 01:03:21,540
is this leisure time activity.

1457
01:03:21,540 --> 01:03:23,250
It's voluntary.

1458
01:03:23,250 --> 01:03:24,990
You can't gain or
lose anything by it.

1459
01:03:24,990 --> 01:03:26,610
The moment you do
that, it's gambling.

1460
01:03:26,610 --> 01:03:27,190
It's not really gaming.

1461
01:03:27,190 --> 01:03:29,080
That's a different thing,
gambling and gaming,

1462
01:03:29,080 --> 01:03:30,770
although the gambling
industry, because of that

1463
01:03:30,770 --> 01:03:31,936
always wants to say, no, no.

1464
01:03:31,936 --> 01:03:33,050
Gambling is gaming.

1465
01:03:33,050 --> 01:03:34,850
But culturally, we
make that distinction

1466
01:03:34,850 --> 01:03:36,766
to say the moment there
is something at stake,

1467
01:03:36,766 --> 01:03:38,787
it's not really gaming anymore.

1468
01:03:38,787 --> 01:03:40,870
And the interesting thing
with all of these things

1469
01:03:40,870 --> 01:03:44,025
is that it basically upturns
existing institutionalizations

1470
01:03:44,025 --> 01:03:46,540
of how games
traditionally happen.

1471
01:03:46,540 --> 01:03:48,550
And then people look
at this thing and say,

1472
01:03:48,550 --> 01:03:50,550
how the heck are we going
to make sense of this?

1473
01:03:50,550 --> 01:03:53,275
And how the heck are we going
to regulate it, or legislate

1474
01:03:53,275 --> 01:03:54,900
it, and what's right,
and what's wrong?

1475
01:03:54,900 --> 01:03:57,030
So first of all, I just
find it interesting,

1476
01:03:57,030 --> 01:03:59,806
because like every other
media convergence phenomenon,

1477
01:03:59,806 --> 01:04:03,310
it just throws existing
orders into relief,

1478
01:04:03,310 --> 01:04:05,520
and then people have to
scramble through the mess.

1479
01:04:08,930 --> 01:04:14,210
What else I make of
the-- it's the same

1480
01:04:14,210 --> 01:04:21,179
as freemium games, where you pay
for in game advancements, where

1481
01:04:21,179 --> 01:04:23,220
a lot of them, the
traditional triple [INAUDIBLE]

1482
01:04:23,220 --> 01:04:24,836
says no, no, no, no, no, no.

1483
01:04:24,836 --> 01:04:25,690
This is dirty.

1484
01:04:25,690 --> 01:04:26,250
This is evil.

1485
01:04:26,250 --> 01:04:30,500
You bring economic things into
our shiny, pristine little

1486
01:04:30,500 --> 01:04:33,615
temples where
economics has no place.

1487
01:04:36,345 --> 01:04:38,760
And then as terrible as the
concept of the magic circle

1488
01:04:38,760 --> 01:04:40,301
is, what they're
basically describing

1489
01:04:40,301 --> 01:04:46,030
is in the old AAA
industry economic model,

1490
01:04:46,030 --> 01:04:48,350
they play games,
the Call of Duties,

1491
01:04:48,350 --> 01:04:54,102
money was admittance and
allowed into that game space.

1492
01:04:54,102 --> 01:04:57,161
But when I'm in the game
space, money has no role.

1493
01:04:57,161 --> 01:05:01,135
In the freemium world, you
get into the game for free.

1494
01:05:01,135 --> 01:05:03,885
And then to get ahead, within
the game, sometimes you

1495
01:05:03,885 --> 01:05:05,520
have to pay money.

1496
01:05:05,520 --> 01:05:08,175
It's just a different way in
which money factors into game

1497
01:05:08,175 --> 01:05:09,570
play.

1498
01:05:09,570 --> 01:05:11,665
It's just that most people
are used to this model

1499
01:05:11,665 --> 01:05:15,810
and say game play should be free
from economic considerations.

1500
01:05:15,810 --> 01:05:21,210
Only it hasn't
been for AAA games

1501
01:05:21,210 --> 01:05:23,150
either, because AAA
games traditionally,

1502
01:05:23,150 --> 01:05:25,435
because of the kind of
business models they have,

1503
01:05:25,435 --> 01:05:27,740
were built such that they
gave great tradeoff for it,

1504
01:05:27,740 --> 01:05:32,290
because that's the way you get
a lot of people to do this.

1505
01:05:32,290 --> 01:05:36,320
AAA games are
notoriously risk averse.

1506
01:05:36,320 --> 01:05:40,940
You just get Call of Duty
24/7, and the next version,

1507
01:05:40,940 --> 01:05:42,810
the next version,
or the next version.

1508
01:05:42,810 --> 01:05:43,510
Why?

1509
01:05:43,510 --> 01:05:47,980
Because traditional AAA games
are so investment intensive;

1510
01:05:47,980 --> 01:05:52,270
dozens of millions of
dollars, that the people who

1511
01:05:52,270 --> 01:05:54,570
give the money say,
the only way we

1512
01:05:54,570 --> 01:05:56,321
know we're going to
recoup our investments

1513
01:05:56,321 --> 01:05:57,945
is due to the very
same recipe-- again,

1514
01:05:57,945 --> 01:05:59,850
that we did before where
we reduce the risk.

1515
01:05:59,850 --> 01:06:01,363
So in that sense,
money influences

1516
01:06:01,363 --> 01:06:03,946
what happens within the game as
well, just in a different way,

1517
01:06:03,946 --> 01:06:09,335
and in a way people are not used
to, and people scream murder.

1518
01:06:09,335 --> 01:06:11,835
There are then different things
with [INAUDIBLE] I would ask

1519
01:06:11,835 --> 01:06:14,650
is that do I like that
aesthetically or not?

1520
01:06:14,650 --> 01:06:17,870
That's a different [INAUDIBLE].

1521
01:06:17,870 --> 01:06:20,175
Based on my personal,
ethical evaluation,

1522
01:06:20,175 --> 01:06:22,940
do I think certain ways
of free to play games

1523
01:06:22,940 --> 01:06:25,490
are organized in
a nice way or not?

1524
01:06:25,490 --> 01:06:30,080
And I would also say no, but
it's the same phenomenon.

1525
01:06:30,080 --> 01:06:31,060
Mhm?

1526
01:06:31,060 --> 01:06:33,832
AUDIENCE: So I know you
talk about using people

1527
01:06:33,832 --> 01:06:36,213
or [INAUDIBLE] to [INAUDIBLE]
you hide within games,

1528
01:06:36,213 --> 01:06:37,837
and then you turn
around and sell that.

1529
01:06:37,837 --> 01:06:40,420
What about games
or situations where

1530
01:06:40,420 --> 01:06:42,910
you end up making
a lot of money,

1531
01:06:42,910 --> 01:06:44,311
but not really intending to?

1532
01:06:44,311 --> 01:06:45,769
Like you're still
out there playing

1533
01:06:45,769 --> 01:06:49,360
the game even online or
something and you find items,

1534
01:06:49,360 --> 01:06:52,779
or you acquire assets that
are then worth a lot of money.

1535
01:06:52,779 --> 01:06:53,820
SEBASTIAN DETERDING: Mhm.

1536
01:06:53,820 --> 01:06:57,380
AUDIENCE: And games like Dodo 2
and TF2 that now, [INAUDIBLE].

1537
01:06:57,380 --> 01:07:00,500
So people sell characters after
a point, and then [INAUDIBLE].

1538
01:07:00,500 --> 01:07:00,902
SEBASTIAN DETERDING: Yeah.

1539
01:07:00,902 --> 01:07:01,438
AUDIENCE: You play
through a game,

1540
01:07:01,438 --> 01:07:03,229
you get past a certain
point of aggression.

1541
01:07:03,229 --> 01:07:05,750
You cite your character,
and statutes like that.

1542
01:07:05,750 --> 01:07:08,059
Or like he was saying,
recent games like Dodo

1543
01:07:08,059 --> 01:07:10,225
and Counter-Strike, a lot
of the battle games, where

1544
01:07:10,225 --> 01:07:12,720
they try the policy
that you can get drops

1545
01:07:12,720 --> 01:07:15,725
that are worth large amounts of
money by simply playing a game.

1546
01:07:15,725 --> 01:07:18,240
AUDIENCE: So they're not
necessarily purposely farming

1547
01:07:18,240 --> 01:07:20,670
for items, but being aware
that that's a possibility,

1548
01:07:20,670 --> 01:07:24,536
and that also being part of
the [INAUDIBLE] proclaim.

1549
01:07:27,490 --> 01:07:28,157
AUDIENCE: Right.

1550
01:07:28,157 --> 01:07:30,448
From the outset I would say,
whatever floats your boat.

1551
01:07:30,448 --> 01:07:32,550
If you, as an individual
say that's something

1552
01:07:32,550 --> 01:07:34,423
that I enjoy doing,
or that's something

1553
01:07:34,423 --> 01:07:37,290
that I want to do for
all kinds of reasons,

1554
01:07:37,290 --> 01:07:39,870
then feel free to do so.

1555
01:07:39,870 --> 01:07:43,600
So to what extent is
that then still a game?

1556
01:07:43,600 --> 01:07:50,942
Or is it a game that I play is
an interesting question, which

1557
01:07:50,942 --> 01:07:52,900
basically brings us to
when is the game a game,

1558
01:07:52,900 --> 01:07:55,639
or when is the game
a gamification?

1559
01:07:55,639 --> 01:07:58,180
The first thing I would do is
as long as I, as an individual,

1560
01:07:58,180 --> 01:08:01,040
play this predominantly
in order to have fun,

1561
01:08:01,040 --> 01:08:03,346
it fits the regular mold
of how we would say that.

1562
01:08:03,346 --> 01:08:05,804
Incidentally, in the end, you
find that the exhaust of what

1563
01:08:05,804 --> 01:08:07,225
you can do, you
can also set off.

1564
01:08:07,225 --> 01:08:07,815
It's just oh.

1565
01:08:07,815 --> 01:08:12,400
At that point, it's nice,
interesting, and weird.

1566
01:08:12,400 --> 01:08:16,120
So let's try and explicate
this one here, actually.

1567
01:08:16,120 --> 01:08:18,760
Just shout out.

1568
01:08:18,760 --> 01:08:20,206
When is something a game?

1569
01:08:20,206 --> 01:08:22,362
What are the conditions
that have to--

1570
01:08:22,362 --> 01:08:24,082
or how to determine
whether something

1571
01:08:24,082 --> 01:08:26,401
is a game or [INAUDIBLE]?

1572
01:08:26,401 --> 01:08:26,900
Yeah?

1573
01:08:26,900 --> 01:08:28,316
AUDIENCE: I think
that the biggest

1574
01:08:28,316 --> 01:08:30,260
thing is the voluntary playing.

1575
01:08:30,260 --> 01:08:34,151
So it's a game if
it's voluntary.

1576
01:08:34,151 --> 01:08:35,609
SEBASTIAN DETERDING:
Voluntary, OK.

1577
01:08:35,609 --> 01:08:37,161
AUDIENCE: A reward system?

1578
01:08:37,161 --> 01:08:38,160
SEBASTIAN DETERDING: OK.

1579
01:08:38,160 --> 01:08:40,410
If it has a reward
system, it's a game.

1580
01:08:40,410 --> 01:08:42,165
If it doesn't, it's not a game?

1581
01:08:45,630 --> 01:08:47,225
AUDIENCE: Not
necessarily, right?

1582
01:08:47,225 --> 01:08:48,724
SEBASTIAN DETERDING:
I'm asking you.

1583
01:08:48,724 --> 01:08:49,166
AUDIENCE: Oh.

1584
01:08:49,166 --> 01:08:50,319
SEBASTIAN DETERDING: You
suggested a reward system.

1585
01:08:50,319 --> 01:08:51,315
I'm just asking.

1586
01:08:51,315 --> 01:08:53,805
AUDIENCE: I think it
is not unique to games,

1587
01:08:53,805 --> 01:08:57,291
but games should definitely
have a reward system.

1588
01:08:57,291 --> 01:09:00,789
SEBASTIAN DETERDING: They
should have one because--

1589
01:09:00,789 --> 01:09:02,330
AUDIENCE: Well,
what's the incentive?

1590
01:09:02,330 --> 01:09:04,370
There should be
one behind a game.

1591
01:09:04,370 --> 01:09:07,319
So it may be a feeling that
you're getting smarter,

1592
01:09:07,319 --> 01:09:09,143
or maybe you're getting points.

1593
01:09:11,970 --> 01:09:13,560
Or solving a puzzle.

1594
01:09:13,560 --> 01:09:15,643
There should be something
that is captivating you.

1595
01:09:15,643 --> 01:09:20,500
But the reward system-- when
you walk in doing your job,

1596
01:09:20,500 --> 01:09:23,270
and you're getting paid for
it, it's also a reward system.

1597
01:09:23,270 --> 01:09:25,986
So I feel like it's
not unique to games,

1598
01:09:25,986 --> 01:09:28,680
but games should definitely
offer a reward system.

1599
01:09:28,680 --> 01:09:29,680
SEBASTIAN DETERDING: OK.

1600
01:09:29,680 --> 01:09:31,425
Is voluntarynism
unique to games?

1601
01:09:33,830 --> 01:09:35,080
GABRIELLE TREPANIER-JOBIN: No.

1602
01:09:35,080 --> 01:09:35,887
AUDIENCE: No.

1603
01:09:35,887 --> 01:09:40,149
SEBASTIAN DETERDING: I can cook
for the enjoyment of cooking.

1604
01:09:40,149 --> 01:09:44,120
So we were playing
a game outside.

1605
01:09:46,928 --> 01:09:52,719
Did you get a reward for that in
your understanding of a reward?

1606
01:09:52,719 --> 01:09:56,260
AUDIENCE: It may not be
something as trivial as hey,

1607
01:09:56,260 --> 01:09:59,040
just get plus one point
or plus two points.

1608
01:09:59,040 --> 01:10:03,257
But definitely, you
could bond with people.

1609
01:10:03,257 --> 01:10:04,340
SEBASTIAN DETERDING: Yeah.

1610
01:10:04,340 --> 01:10:06,570
AUDIENCE: So yes,
it was a reward.

1611
01:10:06,570 --> 01:10:07,570
SEBASTIAN DETERDING: OK.

1612
01:10:07,570 --> 01:10:09,270
So I'm just making
sure that you're--

1613
01:10:09,270 --> 01:10:11,530
AUDIENCE: Besides the
energy of waking up--

1614
01:10:11,530 --> 01:10:12,800
SEBASTIAN DETERDING: Yeah.

1615
01:10:12,800 --> 01:10:17,340
I'm just saying that your way
of understanding the reward here

1616
01:10:17,340 --> 01:10:19,920
is something that is
not necessarily tied

1617
01:10:19,920 --> 01:10:21,240
to a reward system.

1618
01:10:21,240 --> 01:10:25,713
As you do x number of things,
you get the x number of points

1619
01:10:25,713 --> 01:10:27,838
translatable into the y
number with something else.

1620
01:10:27,838 --> 01:10:33,780
So the suggestion is
you award [INAUDIBLE]

1621
01:10:33,780 --> 01:10:43,164
broccoli as there
is a desired result,

1622
01:10:43,164 --> 01:10:45,164
however you want to
construe the desired result.

1623
01:10:45,164 --> 01:10:48,454
That's like economists say
preferences, which basically

1624
01:10:48,454 --> 01:10:49,662
means everything [INAUDIBLE].

1625
01:10:49,662 --> 01:10:50,123
Mhm?

1626
01:10:50,123 --> 01:10:50,737
AUDIENCE: I have a question.

1627
01:10:50,737 --> 01:10:52,717
Are we just saying when
is something a game?

1628
01:10:52,717 --> 01:10:54,092
Or are we trying
to differentiate

1629
01:10:54,092 --> 01:10:57,148
between when it's a game
and when it's gamification?

1630
01:10:57,148 --> 01:10:58,096
SEBASTIAN DETERDING: We'll
get the gamification.

1631
01:10:58,096 --> 01:10:59,518
Now it's just when
is something a game?

1632
01:10:59,518 --> 01:11:00,059
AUDIENCE: OK.

1633
01:11:00,059 --> 01:11:02,236
Because then voluntary
is not [INAUDIBLE],

1634
01:11:02,236 --> 01:11:04,230
because I was thinking
of it in terms of--

1635
01:11:04,230 --> 01:11:05,230
SEBASTIAN DETERDING: Ah.

1636
01:11:05,230 --> 01:11:07,097
AUDIENCE: --is it a
game or a gamification?

1637
01:11:07,097 --> 01:11:08,930
SEBASTIAN DETERDING:
So a game is voluntary.

1638
01:11:08,930 --> 01:11:13,390
Gamification is [INAUDIBLE],
or the other way around.

1639
01:11:13,390 --> 01:11:15,524
Why?

1640
01:11:15,524 --> 01:11:17,980
AUDIENCE: Because gamification
is more of a system

1641
01:11:17,980 --> 01:11:20,220
that I guess you could
choose to be part of it.

1642
01:11:20,220 --> 01:11:22,028
So if you go to a
weird place that does

1643
01:11:22,028 --> 01:11:26,190
have a game like culture, or
you're choosing to do that.

1644
01:11:26,190 --> 01:11:31,110
But then you could
also inevitably end up

1645
01:11:31,110 --> 01:11:34,400
in a gamification culture
where you don't-- if everything

1646
01:11:34,400 --> 01:11:36,890
becomes like that, or you
don't want to be in it.

1647
01:11:36,890 --> 01:11:39,570
But a game, like say
video games are playing.

1648
01:11:39,570 --> 01:11:42,410
I could have refrained from
going outside and playing tag.

1649
01:11:42,410 --> 01:11:44,443
So it wasn't a voluntary action.

1650
01:11:44,443 --> 01:11:45,526
SEBASTIAN DETERDING: Yeah.

1651
01:11:45,526 --> 01:11:48,330
AUDIENCE: I don't know if I
agree that it's necessarily not

1652
01:11:48,330 --> 01:11:48,830
voluntary.

1653
01:11:48,830 --> 01:11:49,830
SEBASTIAN DETERDING: OK.

1654
01:11:49,830 --> 01:11:54,748
AUDIENCE: So I think that games
are that may be non-voluntary,

1655
01:11:54,748 --> 01:11:58,378
but then gamification,
something like it's

1656
01:11:58,378 --> 01:12:02,008
a game if I just play sports
because I enjoy playing sports.

1657
01:12:02,008 --> 01:12:06,654
But if I'm playing
soccer because I

1658
01:12:06,654 --> 01:12:09,888
want to get the
statistics on my Fitbit

1659
01:12:09,888 --> 01:12:13,650
or my pace counter for
my health insurance,

1660
01:12:13,650 --> 01:12:15,430
then it's gamification.

1661
01:12:15,430 --> 01:12:17,910
SEBASTIAN DETERDING: What
about professional sports?

1662
01:12:17,910 --> 01:12:21,444
Like I play soccer, because
I earn $5 million a year

1663
01:12:21,444 --> 01:12:22,680
for playing soccer.

1664
01:12:22,680 --> 01:12:26,280
And if I know if I
lose that next game,

1665
01:12:26,280 --> 01:12:28,845
I won't win that marketing
contract [INAUDIBLE].

1666
01:12:28,845 --> 01:12:30,800
I really have to play
well at this game.

1667
01:12:30,800 --> 01:12:32,980
Is that then, still a game?

1668
01:12:32,980 --> 01:12:33,926
Or is it gamification?

1669
01:12:33,926 --> 01:12:35,400
Or is it something else?

1670
01:12:35,400 --> 01:12:37,511
AUDIENCE: I can't play.

1671
01:12:37,511 --> 01:12:39,052
AUDIENCE: I could,
and that goes back

1672
01:12:39,052 --> 01:12:42,889
to what you're saying about
the economy, [INAUDIBLE].

1673
01:12:42,889 --> 01:12:46,772
If you say, it's
really cool that I get

1674
01:12:46,772 --> 01:12:48,724
paid to do what I love, yeah.

1675
01:12:48,724 --> 01:12:50,188
I think it's cool.

1676
01:12:50,188 --> 01:12:52,696
I have tons of money.

1677
01:12:52,696 --> 01:12:56,242
But also it [INAUDIBLE] like
if you pay me half as much,

1678
01:12:56,242 --> 01:12:57,396
I would still do it.

1679
01:12:57,396 --> 01:12:57,852
SEBASTIAN DETERDING: Yeah.

1680
01:12:57,852 --> 01:12:59,643
AUDIENCE: I would still
enjoy this as much,

1681
01:12:59,643 --> 01:13:01,050
then it's more of a game.

1682
01:13:01,050 --> 01:13:02,850
SEBASTIAN DETERDING: So it's
voluntarynist less in terms

1683
01:13:02,850 --> 01:13:05,100
of the empirical conditions,
or you pay the amount.

1684
01:13:05,100 --> 01:13:06,641
It's voluntarynism
more then in terms

1685
01:13:06,641 --> 01:13:10,732
of how do I perceive
myself as I do this thing?

1686
01:13:10,732 --> 01:13:14,270
Which isn't important
at some point.

1687
01:13:14,270 --> 01:13:16,400
AUDIENCE: I feel
that my time would

1688
01:13:16,400 --> 01:13:22,037
be better used doing something
else when it's a game.

1689
01:13:22,037 --> 01:13:24,400
It's pretty useless.

1690
01:13:24,400 --> 01:13:25,600
SEBASTIAN DETERDING: Ah.

1691
01:13:25,600 --> 01:13:27,850
That's interesting.

1692
01:13:27,850 --> 01:13:32,169
So a game has to be a
waste, is it, in some way.

1693
01:13:32,169 --> 01:13:33,919
AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE]
professional player,

1694
01:13:33,919 --> 01:13:36,374
you have to make more
money [INAUDIBLE].

1695
01:13:36,374 --> 01:13:37,242
AUDIENCE: Really?

1696
01:13:37,242 --> 01:13:37,950
AUDIENCE: Really?

1697
01:13:37,950 --> 01:13:40,492
What are you going to do?

1698
01:13:40,492 --> 01:13:43,608
AUDIENCE: Like look
at it honestly.

1699
01:13:43,608 --> 01:13:45,982
Aside from some of the most
recent tournaments and things

1700
01:13:45,982 --> 01:13:47,638
like that where they've
actually stepped up [INAUDIBLE],

1701
01:13:47,638 --> 01:13:49,072
but a lot of that--

1702
01:13:49,072 --> 01:13:50,984
AUDIENCE: Like football
players, right?

1703
01:13:50,984 --> 01:13:53,015
AUDIENCE: So yeah, you're
stepping [INAUDIBLE].

1704
01:13:53,015 --> 01:13:55,390
Some might say conventional
sports, and things like that,

1705
01:13:55,390 --> 01:13:57,442
But what's your chances
of making it there?

1706
01:13:57,442 --> 01:13:59,782
AUDIENCE: Well, I'm saying,
if you're Tom Brady,

1707
01:13:59,782 --> 01:14:02,851
you're not making any more
money doing anything else.

1708
01:14:02,851 --> 01:14:03,850
It's a horrible example.

1709
01:14:03,850 --> 01:14:05,016
Brady keeps taking pay cuts.

1710
01:14:05,016 --> 01:14:05,730
Man, [INAUDIBLE].

1711
01:14:07,240 --> 01:14:11,940
You're not going to get any
more money doing something else,

1712
01:14:11,940 --> 01:14:14,540
but it's still something
they find [INAUDIBLE].

1713
01:14:14,540 --> 01:14:16,945
Does that mean they don't
think of it like a game?

1714
01:14:16,945 --> 01:14:19,107
I don't know.

1715
01:14:19,107 --> 01:14:20,690
That steps into the
same space that we

1716
01:14:20,690 --> 01:14:23,689
were just at before where we're
asking a question of if you're

1717
01:14:23,689 --> 01:14:26,230
playing a sport, because that's
what makes you all the money,

1718
01:14:26,230 --> 01:14:29,166
and it's almost no longer
in your own choice to do it,

1719
01:14:29,166 --> 01:14:31,035
because this is the
best possible option

1720
01:14:31,035 --> 01:14:31,860
for your utility.

1721
01:14:31,860 --> 01:14:33,165
You make more money doing this.

1722
01:14:33,165 --> 01:14:34,090
You're Tiger Woods.

1723
01:14:34,090 --> 01:14:36,815
You make more money by playing
golf than mowing your own lawn.

1724
01:14:36,815 --> 01:14:39,190
So naturally, you pay somebody
else to mow your own lawn.

1725
01:14:39,190 --> 01:14:40,630
Well, at a certain
point in time,

1726
01:14:40,630 --> 01:14:42,710
you make the most
money by being filmed

1727
01:14:42,710 --> 01:14:46,193
as if you were playing golf.

1728
01:14:46,193 --> 01:14:49,282
AUDIENCE: I really disagree
with calling the game a waste.

1729
01:14:49,282 --> 01:14:50,365
SEBASTIAN DETERDING: Sure.

1730
01:14:50,365 --> 01:14:53,140
AUDIENCE: And if I were to
tweet that out right now to Anna

1731
01:14:53,140 --> 01:14:56,754
Anthropy, she would kill me.

1732
01:14:56,754 --> 01:14:57,670
AUDIENCE: Fair enough.

1733
01:15:01,690 --> 01:15:04,270
AUDIENCE: People don't generally
consider reading a book

1734
01:15:04,270 --> 01:15:06,270
or reading a newspaper
article a waste.

1735
01:15:06,270 --> 01:15:07,665
But there are a
lot of games that

1736
01:15:07,665 --> 01:15:09,916
are like the equivalent
of doing that.

1737
01:15:09,916 --> 01:15:12,630
Like Anna Anthropy's
games, pretty much just

1738
01:15:12,630 --> 01:15:15,150
all of her games.

1739
01:15:15,150 --> 01:15:19,171
Or like Squinkies
games are all very--

1740
01:15:19,171 --> 01:15:20,670
they're meant to
teach you something

1741
01:15:20,670 --> 01:15:22,911
a lot more than the
bottom right hand corner.

1742
01:15:22,911 --> 01:15:24,786
AUDIENCE: So I would
say the idea of it being

1743
01:15:24,786 --> 01:15:28,600
a waste can be more voluntary.

1744
01:15:28,600 --> 01:15:32,390
I'm not playing
this game because I

1745
01:15:32,390 --> 01:15:34,908
need to do it to finish
a graduation requirement.

1746
01:15:34,908 --> 01:15:39,024
I'm playing this game, because
it's a recreational thing.

1747
01:15:39,024 --> 01:15:40,928
So in some sense,
it's like games

1748
01:15:40,928 --> 01:15:43,860
can be a waste so that's
a really negative turn,

1749
01:15:43,860 --> 01:15:47,707
but that gamification is usually
framed into this is a.k.a.

1750
01:15:47,707 --> 01:15:53,100
You should be doing, because its
ulterior motive is [INAUDIBLE].

1751
01:15:53,100 --> 01:15:56,850
The market is something
that has to be

1752
01:15:56,850 --> 01:15:59,688
valuable in some other context
than just the enjoyment

1753
01:15:59,688 --> 01:16:02,740
of the experience.

1754
01:16:02,740 --> 01:16:07,770
like you're being more fit or
learning more about something.

1755
01:16:07,770 --> 01:16:10,270
SEBASTIAN DETERDING: You're
just describing the reverse case

1756
01:16:10,270 --> 01:16:11,821
of what they were
actually-- a couple

1757
01:16:11,821 --> 01:16:14,404
of nice [INAUDIBLE] experiments
about in the younger learning.

1758
01:16:14,404 --> 01:16:16,760
In fact, when people
say if you give somebody

1759
01:16:16,760 --> 01:16:18,700
a reward for doing
that, they will later on

1760
01:16:18,700 --> 01:16:20,116
reconstrue why
they did something.

1761
01:16:20,116 --> 01:16:22,188
Oh, it was a good reward.

1762
01:16:22,188 --> 01:16:25,220
Therefore, it cannot be
something that I should do

1763
01:16:25,220 --> 01:16:27,220
for its own sake, just
because I enjoy doing it.

1764
01:16:27,220 --> 01:16:29,386
Or therefore, maybe I didn't
do it for its own sake.

1765
01:16:29,386 --> 01:16:32,020
So next time, I should
expect [INAUDIBLE] for that

1766
01:16:32,020 --> 01:16:34,590
so I'm less motivated to
do it without a motivation

1767
01:16:34,590 --> 01:16:35,820
the next time.

1768
01:16:35,820 --> 01:16:38,200
So if you add an extrinsic
reward [INAUDIBLE],

1769
01:16:38,200 --> 01:16:41,494
it becomes less
motivated to begin with,

1770
01:16:41,494 --> 01:16:43,530
because you underline
the perception

1771
01:16:43,530 --> 01:16:47,860
of autonomy of the description
[INAUDIBLE] to begin with.

1772
01:16:47,860 --> 01:16:50,530
Whereas if you say well, if
it's really wasteful, if I

1773
01:16:50,530 --> 01:16:54,705
say there's nothing that
comes out of it reliably,

1774
01:16:54,705 --> 01:16:56,205
I can look at the
situation and say,

1775
01:16:56,205 --> 01:16:59,260
well if it's really
wasteful, the only reason

1776
01:16:59,260 --> 01:17:02,100
why I may do this is because
I enjoy the [INAUDIBLE];

1777
01:17:02,100 --> 01:17:04,260
not because I'm getting
a reward for that.

1778
01:17:04,260 --> 01:17:09,160
Ergo, this is an activity
that I'm really [INAUDIBLE].

1779
01:17:09,160 --> 01:17:10,632
Therefore, if it's
very autonomous,

1780
01:17:10,632 --> 01:17:14,177
[INAUDIBLE], this is something
where I fully just-- this

1781
01:17:14,177 --> 01:17:16,302
comes to us out of my own
personal beliefs, wishes,

1782
01:17:16,302 --> 01:17:20,270
and goals, nothing else.

1783
01:17:20,270 --> 01:17:22,686
Or you could use the Calvinist
version of that saying,

1784
01:17:22,686 --> 01:17:23,940
this is a waste.

1785
01:17:23,940 --> 01:17:25,490
I shouldn't do this.

1786
01:17:25,490 --> 01:17:28,430
And by the fact
that I put myself

1787
01:17:28,430 --> 01:17:32,864
against the moral tub of a
Calvinist culture around me

1788
01:17:32,864 --> 01:17:34,322
that always wants
to be productive,

1789
01:17:34,322 --> 01:17:36,571
and so I intentionally
[INAUDIBLE] completely wasteful

1790
01:17:36,571 --> 01:17:38,751
to show you that I'm
not always controlled

1791
01:17:38,751 --> 01:17:39,836
by your damn culture.

1792
01:17:39,836 --> 01:17:42,134
In the same way, you are
reinserting your autonomy

1793
01:17:42,134 --> 01:17:44,895
by doing something intentionally
[INAUDIBLE], potentially.

1794
01:17:44,895 --> 01:17:48,594
So yes, they're definitely
in these psychological ways,

1795
01:17:48,594 --> 01:17:49,730
intertwined.

1796
01:17:49,730 --> 01:17:52,350
AUDIENCE: I'm curious if that
means the example we said where

1797
01:17:52,350 --> 01:17:54,190
they were being paid
to play the game,

1798
01:17:54,190 --> 01:17:56,706
but then they also played
it in their days off.

1799
01:17:56,706 --> 01:17:57,052
SEBASTIAN DETERDING: Yeah.

1800
01:17:57,052 --> 01:17:59,392
AUDIENCE: Then would it be
a game when they played it

1801
01:17:59,392 --> 01:18:03,620
on during their free time,
but it's gamification

1802
01:18:03,620 --> 01:18:05,240
when they do it as a job?

1803
01:18:05,240 --> 01:18:07,530
The same exact game,
with the same exact,

1804
01:18:07,530 --> 01:18:10,096
enjoyment for the
person playing it?

1805
01:18:10,096 --> 01:18:11,845
SEBASTIAN DETERDING:
It's a good question,

1806
01:18:11,845 --> 01:18:13,595
but I'll get to that
in one second please.

1807
01:18:13,595 --> 01:18:17,071
AUDIENCE: I think it's worth
unpacking the word game,

1808
01:18:17,071 --> 01:18:19,071
and that we're using it
in two different senses.

1809
01:18:19,071 --> 01:18:23,610
I think you might have just
said there is the people who

1810
01:18:23,610 --> 01:18:25,397
are planning to play
the game for work,

1811
01:18:25,397 --> 01:18:26,730
and then play the game for play.

1812
01:18:26,730 --> 01:18:30,585
But when they're playing a game
outside of the context of work,

1813
01:18:30,585 --> 01:18:35,270
I think they might see it
as I am playing a game right

1814
01:18:35,270 --> 01:18:37,662
now, whereas that other
thing they are playing,

1815
01:18:37,662 --> 01:18:41,030
this game-- how
do I describe it?

1816
01:18:41,030 --> 01:18:43,610
There's a difference
between the game

1817
01:18:43,610 --> 01:18:47,334
that everyone calls a game, this
program system that everyone

1818
01:18:47,334 --> 01:18:50,515
plays, and the activity of
the person actually playing

1819
01:18:50,515 --> 01:18:51,175
the game.

1820
01:18:51,175 --> 01:18:53,216
AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE] as
a subset of [INAUDIBLE].

1821
01:18:53,216 --> 01:18:54,200
AUDIENCE: Right.

1822
01:18:54,200 --> 01:18:56,665
Gold farming is a thing
you can do in this system

1823
01:18:56,665 --> 01:18:59,380
that we call a game, because
people tend to play it.

1824
01:18:59,380 --> 01:19:01,070
In that case, there
are ways of playing

1825
01:19:01,070 --> 01:19:03,070
the game that don't meet
that normal expectation

1826
01:19:03,070 --> 01:19:04,740
and might look like work.

1827
01:19:04,740 --> 01:19:07,620
And then there's the normal way
of playing the game that they

1828
01:19:07,620 --> 01:19:10,590
return to on their own time that
perhaps is more fun and less

1829
01:19:10,590 --> 01:19:13,189
for this external reward.

1830
01:19:13,189 --> 01:19:14,230
SEBASTIAN DETERDING: Yep.

1831
01:19:14,230 --> 01:19:16,650
That is a very important one,
and one that is especially

1832
01:19:16,650 --> 01:19:20,430
in game study is
usually completed

1833
01:19:20,430 --> 01:19:24,236
that is the distinction between
object and activity [INAUDIBLE]

1834
01:19:24,236 --> 01:19:26,940
of engagement.

1835
01:19:26,940 --> 01:19:30,514
Because [INAUDIBLE] like to
say well, if I'm the toddler,

1836
01:19:30,514 --> 01:19:32,446
I have no concept
of game theory.

1837
01:19:32,446 --> 01:19:34,190
I haven't been
socialized into games,

1838
01:19:34,190 --> 01:19:37,160
and I accidentally happen to
hack under the chess computer,

1839
01:19:37,160 --> 01:19:41,510
entering the exact commands
that are legal commands based

1840
01:19:41,510 --> 01:19:42,990
on the rules of chess.

1841
01:19:42,990 --> 01:19:45,242
Is the toddler playing chess?

1842
01:19:45,242 --> 01:19:48,056
Or is the toddler toying around
with the chess set, [INAUDIBLE]

1843
01:19:48,056 --> 01:19:52,680
the concept of what playing
the game of chess means?

1844
01:19:52,680 --> 01:19:54,166
No, but those are free.

1845
01:19:54,166 --> 01:19:55,540
Give the toddler
his [INAUDIBLE].

1846
01:19:55,540 --> 01:19:58,290
I'm trying to play chess here.

1847
01:19:58,290 --> 01:20:02,150
In the same way, if I'm
the usability engineer,

1848
01:20:02,150 --> 01:20:05,656
and I am clicking my way
through Halo in order

1849
01:20:05,656 --> 01:20:09,950
to [INAUDIBLE]
usability products.

1850
01:20:09,950 --> 01:20:10,910
Am I playing Halo?

1851
01:20:10,910 --> 01:20:13,420
Or am I testing Halo?

1852
01:20:13,420 --> 01:20:15,495
The activity that
I'm engaged in--

1853
01:20:15,495 --> 01:20:18,025
and this is actually
the court subject,

1854
01:20:18,025 --> 01:20:21,275
what was the subject matter of
my PhD research [INAUDIBLE],

1855
01:20:21,275 --> 01:20:23,650
for exactly that
kind of experience.

1856
01:20:23,650 --> 01:20:25,475
The activity that
they're engaged in

1857
01:20:25,475 --> 01:20:30,005
is testing, even though the
object they're operating with

1858
01:20:30,005 --> 01:20:31,064
is a game.

1859
01:20:31,064 --> 01:20:33,120
So keeping these two
separate you could say well,

1860
01:20:33,120 --> 01:20:34,000
it was the game.

1861
01:20:34,000 --> 01:20:37,093
But maybe some points,
when they felt oh, now I'm

1862
01:20:37,093 --> 01:20:39,540
engaged in World of Warcraft
in order to make money,

1863
01:20:39,540 --> 01:20:42,060
they felt this feels
like-- it's still

1864
01:20:42,060 --> 01:20:44,742
game play, what I do, but
it's game play as work.

1865
01:20:44,742 --> 01:20:47,730
It's game play reorganized,
reframed as working to me.

1866
01:20:47,730 --> 01:20:50,052
So it's not really
playing the game anymore.

1867
01:20:50,052 --> 01:20:50,986
It's work playing.

1868
01:20:50,986 --> 01:20:51,922
It's a weird mixture.

1869
01:20:51,922 --> 01:20:54,110
It's a new type of
activity, but it's not

1870
01:20:54,110 --> 01:20:56,570
playing as we know
leisure time [INAUDIBLE].

1871
01:20:56,570 --> 01:21:00,610
So that's definitely an
important distinction.

1872
01:21:00,610 --> 01:21:02,506
The second thing,
or the final thing

1873
01:21:02,506 --> 01:21:05,131
that I want to turn on, in terms
of when it is something a game

1874
01:21:05,131 --> 01:21:06,920
or a gamification?

1875
01:21:06,920 --> 01:21:09,530
First thing to notice--
all of this was tested,

1876
01:21:09,530 --> 01:21:11,085
and you could throw
in new points,

1877
01:21:11,085 --> 01:21:13,610
and you would get it to
the same [INAUDIBLE];

1878
01:21:13,610 --> 01:21:17,380
yes, no, yes, no, yes, no.

1879
01:21:17,380 --> 01:21:21,540
So how do we know if a term is
correctly used for something

1880
01:21:21,540 --> 01:21:22,392
or not?

1881
01:21:22,392 --> 01:21:24,668
What determines whether
a word is currently

1882
01:21:24,668 --> 01:21:27,810
used within the device
[INAUDIBLE] or not?

1883
01:21:27,810 --> 01:21:32,794
When is something
correctly called oxygen?

1884
01:21:36,080 --> 01:21:40,235
When is correctly or incorrectly
identified as oxygen?

1885
01:21:40,235 --> 01:21:43,400
AUDIENCE: Shouldn't all
these depend on the context?

1886
01:21:43,400 --> 01:21:45,400
SEBASTIAN DETERDING: How so?

1887
01:21:45,400 --> 01:21:49,820
AUDIENCE: Because if you
just give it time by itself,

1888
01:21:49,820 --> 01:21:52,625
without much context, you
can actually figure out

1889
01:21:52,625 --> 01:21:55,050
if it is correctly used or not.

1890
01:21:55,050 --> 01:21:58,884
So for example, oxygen, just
given the word like that,

1891
01:21:58,884 --> 01:22:04,281
I can say something like we
all need oxygen to break.

1892
01:22:04,281 --> 01:22:05,772
SEBASTIAN DETERDING: Yeah.

1893
01:22:05,772 --> 01:22:07,760
AUDIENCE: But then
you can also say

1894
01:22:07,760 --> 01:22:14,802
something else like too much
oxygen can asphyxiate us.

1895
01:22:14,802 --> 01:22:16,750
SEBASTIAN DETERDING: Mhm.

1896
01:22:16,750 --> 01:22:18,211
AUDIENCE: Actually,
is that true?

1897
01:22:18,211 --> 01:22:19,862
[LAUGHTER]

1898
01:22:19,862 --> 01:22:21,570
SEBASTIAN DETERDING:
I see what you mean.

1899
01:22:21,570 --> 01:22:24,885
So definitely, whether a
statement using the word

1900
01:22:24,885 --> 01:22:27,600
is correct or not depends
on the total statement.

1901
01:22:27,600 --> 01:22:28,710
Totally.

1902
01:22:28,710 --> 01:22:32,096
Second point is so when
is the term correctly used

1903
01:22:32,096 --> 01:22:32,984
or incorrectly used?

1904
01:22:32,984 --> 01:22:35,400
How do we determine if the
term's correctly or incorrectly

1905
01:22:35,400 --> 01:22:39,230
used to identifying something--
a phenomenon, an object

1906
01:22:39,230 --> 01:22:41,038
in the world, [INAUDIBLE].

1907
01:22:41,038 --> 01:22:45,420
AUDIENCE: I would say it's
really hard to do that.

1908
01:22:45,420 --> 01:22:46,444
And there's a reason.

1909
01:22:46,444 --> 01:22:48,235
It's like oxygen,
everyone's thinking here.

1910
01:22:48,235 --> 01:22:49,747
It's also the name
of a TV channel.

1911
01:22:49,747 --> 01:22:50,830
SEBASTIAN DETERDING: Yeah.

1912
01:22:50,830 --> 01:22:51,790
AUDIENCE: And that's
fully correct.

1913
01:22:51,790 --> 01:22:53,020
It just felt like that.

1914
01:22:53,020 --> 01:22:55,730
So I think the context of what
you were saying is important.

1915
01:22:55,730 --> 01:22:58,734
So when you wrote that word
down and asked that question,

1916
01:22:58,734 --> 01:23:00,442
the answer was what
you were thinking of,

1917
01:23:00,442 --> 01:23:02,888
because it was in the
context that you have.

1918
01:23:02,888 --> 01:23:04,846
So we would have to figure
out what context you

1919
01:23:04,846 --> 01:23:06,595
were talking about and then
answer that question correctly.

1920
01:23:06,595 --> 01:23:08,612
But someone else could come
up and ask the same question

1921
01:23:08,612 --> 01:23:10,880
with a different context,
and the answer would change.

1922
01:23:10,880 --> 01:23:13,194
And you could make this
argument for almost every word.

1923
01:23:13,194 --> 01:23:14,689
That's part of the
reason why it's

1924
01:23:14,689 --> 01:23:17,105
really hard to get computers
to understand what humans are

1925
01:23:17,105 --> 01:23:18,938
talking about, because
you have to give them

1926
01:23:18,938 --> 01:23:21,080
this conflict and the context.

1927
01:23:21,080 --> 01:23:23,381
So I don't know if you can
for sure define something

1928
01:23:23,381 --> 01:23:24,144
like that.

1929
01:23:24,144 --> 01:23:26,060
I may run around with a
different [INAUDIBLE].

1930
01:23:26,060 --> 01:23:27,060
SEBASTIAN DETERDING: OK.

1931
01:23:27,060 --> 01:23:28,905
If you ask a
scientist, a chemist,

1932
01:23:28,905 --> 01:23:30,956
how do I identify whether
something's correctly

1933
01:23:30,956 --> 01:23:32,871
or incorrectly called oxygen?

1934
01:23:32,871 --> 01:23:34,164
How do you go about that?

1935
01:23:34,164 --> 01:23:35,773
AUDIENCE: And at
that point, you claim

1936
01:23:35,773 --> 01:23:38,700
that there's some fundamental
principle of the object as such

1937
01:23:38,700 --> 01:23:42,550
that you can identify about it
that identifies it as oxygen.

1938
01:23:42,550 --> 01:23:45,860
And so you can concoct some
series of tests that allow you

1939
01:23:45,860 --> 01:23:47,882
to verify the things
that make it as such,

1940
01:23:47,882 --> 01:23:49,340
because you have
some set of rules.

1941
01:23:49,340 --> 01:23:50,798
You verified against
all the rules,

1942
01:23:50,798 --> 01:23:53,600
and you claim that therefore,
this thing's oxygen.

1943
01:23:53,600 --> 01:23:54,170
SEBASTIAN DETERDING:
Scientists that

1944
01:23:54,170 --> 01:23:55,711
basically were
chemists in that case,

1945
01:23:55,711 --> 01:23:57,160
have operationalized
that concept.

1946
01:23:57,160 --> 01:23:58,880
Or the other way
around the concept

1947
01:23:58,880 --> 01:24:01,920
is defined by the very
set of operationalization.

1948
01:24:01,920 --> 01:24:05,494
So if it passes these
tests, it counts as oxygen.

1949
01:24:05,494 --> 01:24:07,669
That's how we define that term.

1950
01:24:07,669 --> 01:24:09,210
So that's the
definition [INAUDIBLE],

1951
01:24:09,210 --> 01:24:11,605
which works great for
scientific constructs,

1952
01:24:11,605 --> 01:24:14,890
if that's how scientific
concepts work basically.

1953
01:24:14,890 --> 01:24:17,970
Now, what about
something like delicious?

1954
01:24:20,782 --> 01:24:22,490
When do I know whether
the word delicious

1955
01:24:22,490 --> 01:24:27,425
is correctly or incorrectly used
to apply it to a given object?

1956
01:24:27,425 --> 01:24:31,892
AUDIENCE: Isn't that
extremely subjective?

1957
01:24:31,892 --> 01:24:33,475
AUDIENCE: That's
correct, and identify

1958
01:24:33,475 --> 01:24:35,433
against everybody in the
room and prove to them

1959
01:24:35,433 --> 01:24:36,960
that that's delicious.

1960
01:24:36,960 --> 01:24:38,918
SEBASTIAN DETERDING:
[JOKINGLY] It is delicious

1961
01:24:38,918 --> 01:24:40,770
when I tell you.

1962
01:24:40,770 --> 01:24:41,292
Right.

1963
01:24:41,292 --> 01:24:42,250
It's a subjective term.

1964
01:24:42,250 --> 01:24:44,134
Delicious isn't true
or untrue based on

1965
01:24:44,134 --> 01:24:45,634
whether it passes
a number of tests.

1966
01:24:45,634 --> 01:24:49,948
Delicious is an expression of
a subjective value experience.

1967
01:24:49,948 --> 01:24:52,484
If I find it delicious, I
can use the term delicious.

1968
01:24:52,484 --> 01:24:54,900
It would be incorrectly used
if I used the word delicious,

1969
01:24:54,900 --> 01:24:57,200
although I think this is
their choice [INAUDIBLE],

1970
01:24:57,200 --> 01:24:59,270
but it's delicious
for me or not.

1971
01:24:59,270 --> 01:25:05,730
What about as a
kind of middle term?

1972
01:25:05,730 --> 01:25:06,900
It's not a middle term.

1973
01:25:06,900 --> 01:25:09,300
This mixes all kinds of things.

1974
01:25:09,300 --> 01:25:19,776
What about something
like faux pas?

1975
01:25:23,238 --> 01:25:27,044
A social faux pas or
inappropriateness-- something

1976
01:25:27,044 --> 01:25:28,000
like that.

1977
01:25:28,000 --> 01:25:31,474
When is the words
inappropriate and so faux pas

1978
01:25:31,474 --> 01:25:32,468
appropriately used?

1979
01:25:39,923 --> 01:25:43,415
AUDIENCE: It both depends on the
context and if it's subjective.

1980
01:25:43,415 --> 01:25:46,740
SEBASTIAN DETERDING:
How is it subjective?

1981
01:25:46,740 --> 01:25:51,520
AUDIENCE: In France, something
might be illegal, or in the US,

1982
01:25:51,520 --> 01:25:52,307
it is not.

1983
01:25:52,307 --> 01:25:53,390
SEBASTIAN DETERDING: Yeah.

1984
01:25:53,390 --> 01:25:57,160
AUDIENCE: And depending on
the context of the thing,

1985
01:25:57,160 --> 01:26:01,672
of what happened, then
even in the same country

1986
01:26:01,672 --> 01:26:04,590
or same location with
the same set of rules,

1987
01:26:04,590 --> 01:26:07,394
it might be good
or bad, depending

1988
01:26:07,394 --> 01:26:10,319
on who is the person
actually looking at it.

1989
01:26:10,319 --> 01:26:11,360
SEBASTIAN DETERDING: Mhm.

1990
01:26:16,105 --> 01:26:17,472
So I flush that out.

1991
01:26:17,472 --> 01:26:20,790
It's something that we have,
like a formal definition

1992
01:26:20,790 --> 01:26:22,273
to the way that it works.

1993
01:26:22,273 --> 01:26:25,560
There's a set of
[INAUDIBLE] rules you're

1994
01:26:25,560 --> 01:26:28,518
supposed to adhere to, a
way that the context has

1995
01:26:28,518 --> 01:26:30,629
been misinterpreted, or
something of that nature.

1996
01:26:30,629 --> 01:26:32,920
It's like using the word
irony, or something like that.

1997
01:26:32,920 --> 01:26:34,882
There's a specific
formula for how you

1998
01:26:34,882 --> 01:26:36,250
know something is [INAUDIBLE].

1999
01:26:36,250 --> 01:26:38,640
But past that, there's
also still the fact

2000
01:26:38,640 --> 01:26:41,500
that you have
identify it as such,

2001
01:26:41,500 --> 01:26:44,240
and that's dependent on the
context or the situation

2002
01:26:44,240 --> 01:26:48,160
you read that inside of, because
what it is in one situation may

2003
01:26:48,160 --> 01:26:49,851
not be in another.

2004
01:26:49,851 --> 01:26:51,550
And it's definitely
my situation.

2005
01:26:51,550 --> 01:26:55,660
It's highly situation dependent
on [INAUDIBLE] culturally.

2006
01:26:55,660 --> 01:26:58,262
How to properly or
improperly [INAUDIBLE]

2007
01:26:58,262 --> 01:27:00,524
taken that into the business
partisan [INAUDIBLE]

2008
01:27:00,524 --> 01:27:04,140
different depending on
the different cultures.

2009
01:27:04,140 --> 01:27:06,942
I do this usually to
how people think about--

2010
01:27:06,942 --> 01:27:08,400
if you'd look at
a certain concept,

2011
01:27:08,400 --> 01:27:11,340
is this more like a
scientific construct?

2012
01:27:11,340 --> 01:27:13,412
Is this more like a
subjective value statement,

2013
01:27:13,412 --> 01:27:17,405
or is this more a
social convention?

2014
01:27:17,405 --> 01:27:21,370
And I would say games
and gamification,

2015
01:27:21,370 --> 01:27:25,620
because they weren't around
before people were around.

2016
01:27:25,620 --> 01:27:30,120
But it's still something
that we use as a sure term to

2017
01:27:30,120 --> 01:27:31,065
[INAUDIBLE].

2018
01:27:31,065 --> 01:27:33,627
And don't think that somebody
can say for me, this is a game.

2019
01:27:33,627 --> 01:27:34,712
For me, this is not a game.

2020
01:27:34,712 --> 01:27:35,990
Like you would say for
me, this is delicious.

2021
01:27:35,990 --> 01:27:38,175
For me, this is not
delicious, that it's basically

2022
01:27:38,175 --> 01:27:39,938
the social convention
[INAUDIBLE].

2023
01:27:39,938 --> 01:27:43,850
This is this sure
cultural sense of this

2024
01:27:43,850 --> 01:27:46,470
is what a game is
or shouldn't be.

2025
01:27:46,470 --> 01:27:49,433
So to an extent, teasing out
when is the game, or when

2026
01:27:49,433 --> 01:27:50,042
is not a game.

2027
01:27:50,042 --> 01:27:51,500
What you're doing
here is basically

2028
01:27:51,500 --> 01:27:53,565
you're doing social linguistics.

2029
01:27:53,565 --> 01:27:56,070
You're teasing out what are
the conventions of a shared

2030
01:27:56,070 --> 01:27:58,120
community of people
what they consider

2031
01:27:58,120 --> 01:27:59,872
to be a proper game or not?

2032
01:27:59,872 --> 01:28:01,580
And then you run into
all the [INAUDIBLE]

2033
01:28:01,580 --> 01:28:03,805
cases where the language
community in front of you.

2034
01:28:03,805 --> 01:28:06,592
And you hear people say, is
that a game I don't know?

2035
01:28:06,592 --> 01:28:07,230
That's weird.

2036
01:28:07,230 --> 01:28:08,250
That's odd.

2037
01:28:08,250 --> 01:28:11,882
It doesn't fit my prototype
case of how games should be.

2038
01:28:11,882 --> 01:28:14,560
And gamification
presents us with all

2039
01:28:14,560 --> 01:28:17,950
of these cases for
real money trading

2040
01:28:17,950 --> 01:28:20,160
and stuff like that that,
[INAUDIBLE] all these cases

2041
01:28:20,160 --> 01:28:22,454
that don't fit our
existing social conventions

2042
01:28:22,454 --> 01:28:24,840
of the category of gamers.

2043
01:28:24,840 --> 01:28:27,551
And so therefore, we
have all [INAUDIBLE],

2044
01:28:27,551 --> 01:28:29,000
because their
challenge-- they're

2045
01:28:29,000 --> 01:28:30,650
an empirically new
phenomenon that

2046
01:28:30,650 --> 01:28:32,963
don't fit our existing
conceptual categories.

2047
01:28:32,963 --> 01:28:36,020
I was [INAUDIBLE]
existing categories.

2048
01:28:36,020 --> 01:28:37,690
So to a certain extent
when is it games,

2049
01:28:37,690 --> 01:28:39,840
or when is it gamification?

2050
01:28:39,840 --> 01:28:45,107
Let's see how society solidifies
opinion around these terms.

2051
01:28:45,107 --> 01:28:50,060
Right now, it's up in the
air, to a certain extent.

2052
01:28:50,060 --> 01:28:53,900
Or that's what I suggest, so
that's what I sometimes do.

2053
01:28:53,900 --> 01:28:56,210
If I introduce an
article I say, I'm not

2054
01:28:56,210 --> 01:28:57,662
doing social [INAUDIBLE] here.

2055
01:28:57,662 --> 01:29:00,640
I'm not trying to tease up
what people think collectively,

2056
01:29:00,640 --> 01:29:02,500
the way they police
language together,

2057
01:29:02,500 --> 01:29:04,416
whether this is a game
or not, or whether this

2058
01:29:04,416 --> 01:29:06,848
is an unsettled
matter [INAUDIBLE].

2059
01:29:06,848 --> 01:29:08,306
I use it as a
scientific construct,

2060
01:29:08,306 --> 01:29:10,040
and here is my
operationalization

2061
01:29:10,040 --> 01:29:11,930
of that scientific construct.

2062
01:29:11,930 --> 01:29:13,600
I use the term [INAUDIBLE].

2063
01:29:13,600 --> 01:29:17,070
It is supposed to mean that it's
to pass the following tests.

2064
01:29:17,070 --> 01:29:19,690
And if it fits these
tests, it is gamification.

2065
01:29:19,690 --> 01:29:21,826
If it doesn't fit
these tests, it's game.

2066
01:29:21,826 --> 01:29:22,950
You can disagree with that.

2067
01:29:22,950 --> 01:29:24,741
You can make up another
operationalization.

2068
01:29:24,741 --> 01:29:26,684
But in that sense, the
meaning of the word

2069
01:29:26,684 --> 01:29:28,632
is I use it in
[INAUDIBLE] of this text.

2070
01:29:32,050 --> 01:29:33,970
Another interesting
thing in a second.

2071
01:29:33,970 --> 01:29:36,076
Another interesting
thing is that

2072
01:29:36,076 --> 01:29:37,995
is this still a game
or not, or is this this

2073
01:29:37,995 --> 01:29:40,704
or that is that
you often conflict

2074
01:29:40,704 --> 01:29:46,090
normative and
descriptive [INAUDIBLE].

2075
01:29:46,090 --> 01:29:46,940
This isn't a game.

2076
01:29:46,940 --> 01:29:48,725
If you look at
[INAUDIBLE], it very often

2077
01:29:48,725 --> 01:29:50,433
just means this is
not a game I'm liking.

2078
01:29:52,717 --> 01:29:55,300
It doesn't mean that it doesn't
fit the descriptive categories

2079
01:29:55,300 --> 01:29:57,890
that you can say, according
to this game theoretician,

2080
01:29:57,890 --> 01:29:59,820
it's set up list
the five defining

2081
01:29:59,820 --> 01:30:01,445
criteria of whether
it's a game or not.

2082
01:30:01,445 --> 01:30:04,662
It fits the bill, but it's
not a kind of game I'm liking.

2083
01:30:04,662 --> 01:30:07,459
So if we say, is this still
a game or gamification

2084
01:30:07,459 --> 01:30:10,620
it often says is this
a certain kind of game

2085
01:30:10,620 --> 01:30:14,910
that I like versus the certain
kind that I dislike, Dido?

2086
01:30:14,910 --> 01:30:18,360
AUDIENCE: So if we're
talking, in regards

2087
01:30:18,360 --> 01:30:21,890
to the more subjective
view of this distinction,

2088
01:30:21,890 --> 01:30:26,236
I was wondering if you
think whether or not

2089
01:30:26,236 --> 01:30:30,540
a person looking at you for a
game or a [INAUDIBLE] context,

2090
01:30:30,540 --> 01:30:32,940
whether or not if they
identify as the gamer,

2091
01:30:32,940 --> 01:30:35,210
or if they had prior
experience with even

2092
01:30:35,210 --> 01:30:38,840
more traditional games will
effect their typecasting of

2093
01:30:38,840 --> 01:30:40,901
whether or not it's a
game or a gamification.

2094
01:30:40,901 --> 01:30:42,734
Will people who are
more familiar with games

2095
01:30:42,734 --> 01:30:44,358
recognize things
that are more subtle

2096
01:30:44,358 --> 01:30:46,195
and say oh, that's
gamification faster?

2097
01:30:46,195 --> 01:30:48,330
Or is it they're more
accustomed to it?

2098
01:30:48,330 --> 01:30:51,227
They won't see it
as much, and just

2099
01:30:51,227 --> 01:30:53,950
wondering the different-- that
would be like me or my mother

2100
01:30:53,950 --> 01:30:55,930
basically.

2101
01:30:55,930 --> 01:30:57,650
SEBASTIAN DETERDING:
There are lots

2102
01:30:57,650 --> 01:30:59,190
of interesting [INAUDIBLE].

2103
01:30:59,190 --> 01:31:02,208
A, there is beginning data,
especially when people

2104
01:31:02,208 --> 01:31:04,152
do gamification [INAUDIBLE].

2105
01:31:04,152 --> 01:31:06,510
We find old people play games.

2106
01:31:06,510 --> 01:31:08,054
They just don't
play video games.

2107
01:31:08,054 --> 01:31:10,053
They play board games,
card games, social games,

2108
01:31:10,053 --> 01:31:11,532
all kinds of games.

2109
01:31:11,532 --> 01:31:14,490
It's not as if they were not
introduced to the concept.

2110
01:31:14,490 --> 01:31:19,146
But they don't know the video
game lexicon [INAUDIBLE]

2111
01:31:19,146 --> 01:31:19,646
necessarily.

2112
01:31:19,646 --> 01:31:21,366
So they don't know
progress bars.

2113
01:31:21,366 --> 01:31:23,370
They don't know achievements.

2114
01:31:23,370 --> 01:31:25,566
And so it's all of
that [INAUDIBLE].

2115
01:31:25,566 --> 01:31:26,462
What's that then?

2116
01:31:26,462 --> 01:31:27,358
What happens now?

2117
01:31:27,358 --> 01:31:28,864
And I remember a
former girlfriend

2118
01:31:28,864 --> 01:31:30,448
of mine, the first
time she played.

2119
01:31:30,448 --> 01:31:32,407
[INAUDIBLE] obviously,
there were achievements.

2120
01:31:32,407 --> 01:31:34,198
She was in the achievements
screen and say,

2121
01:31:34,198 --> 01:31:35,280
the game is broken.

2122
01:31:35,280 --> 01:31:37,044
How do I get back?

2123
01:31:37,044 --> 01:31:41,580
She wasn't absolutely not
introduced to the concept.

2124
01:31:41,580 --> 01:31:44,210
And as gamification
for the elderly

2125
01:31:44,210 --> 01:31:47,700
do is they show
data that indicates

2126
01:31:47,700 --> 01:31:50,440
there is another nice little
identification in the work

2127
01:31:50,440 --> 01:31:53,310
place by [INAUDIBLE]
molecule a bit

2128
01:31:53,310 --> 01:31:59,163
that [INAUDIBLE], that people
who are socialized into games

2129
01:31:59,163 --> 01:32:03,102
tend to pick up gamification
more easily or usually

2130
01:32:03,102 --> 01:32:08,430
a bit more lenient
towards it, whereas people

2131
01:32:08,430 --> 01:32:11,924
who don't have a
game of socialization

2132
01:32:11,924 --> 01:32:13,358
are more [INAUDIBLE].

2133
01:32:19,387 --> 01:32:20,345
The second [INAUDIBLE].

2134
01:32:23,634 --> 01:32:24,135
Yeah?

2135
01:32:24,135 --> 01:32:26,509
AUDIENCE: This is going to
sound really stupid coming out

2136
01:32:26,509 --> 01:32:29,270
of my mouth, but are games
these days gamified in the sense

2137
01:32:29,270 --> 01:32:31,650
that so it takes me to
the achievement system.

2138
01:32:31,650 --> 01:32:34,689
That wasn't in games that
should go back in time?

2139
01:32:34,689 --> 01:32:35,730
SEBASTIAN DETERDING: Yep.

2140
01:32:35,730 --> 01:32:37,354
AUDIENCE: And now
you see that it's now

2141
01:32:37,354 --> 01:32:39,982
almost a requisite part of
any game that comes out.

2142
01:32:39,982 --> 01:32:42,229
A game doesn't come out
without achieving things.

2143
01:32:42,229 --> 01:32:44,520
A shooting game doesn't come
without her filling health

2144
01:32:44,520 --> 01:32:47,470
bars, and fields,
and things like that.

2145
01:32:47,470 --> 01:32:50,390
These tropes that define
the topic itself necessarily

2146
01:32:50,390 --> 01:32:52,370
comes reflexible with
[INAUDIBLE] on it,

2147
01:32:52,370 --> 01:32:56,100
and it's pointless
to describe things

2148
01:32:56,100 --> 01:32:58,300
as gamified and everything.

2149
01:32:58,300 --> 01:33:00,512
Both games and non-games
can have that slim set

2150
01:33:00,512 --> 01:33:01,238
of [INAUDIBLE].

2151
01:33:06,442 --> 01:33:08,692
SEBASTIAN DETERDING: I said
one of the things in terms

2152
01:33:08,692 --> 01:33:10,924
of distinctions, you
typically-- and I apologize

2153
01:33:10,924 --> 01:33:12,090
for my terrible handwriting.

2154
01:33:12,090 --> 01:33:14,990
This isn't working [INAUDIBLE]
involving AIDS for me.

2155
01:33:14,990 --> 01:33:17,211
It is between descriptive
and normative.

2156
01:33:17,211 --> 01:33:18,960
Are you using these
terms of indescriptive

2157
01:33:18,960 --> 01:33:19,729
or a normative way?

2158
01:33:19,729 --> 01:33:21,562
I've seen a lot of
people using gamification

2159
01:33:21,562 --> 01:33:25,110
in a normative way. [INAUDIBLE]
communication, evaluating that.

2160
01:33:25,110 --> 01:33:27,334
Another one is if you
do a descriptive way,

2161
01:33:27,334 --> 01:33:30,320
how do you operationalize
that definition if you say,

2162
01:33:30,320 --> 01:33:32,620
it is gamification if
it has certain features,

2163
01:33:32,620 --> 01:33:34,860
like an achievement system.

2164
01:33:34,860 --> 01:33:38,086
Or is it gamification if
it describes the outcome

2165
01:33:38,086 --> 01:33:40,710
of a certain design process?

2166
01:33:40,710 --> 01:33:43,140
Designers about to make
something more [INAUDIBLE]

2167
01:33:43,140 --> 01:33:46,310
about thinking about [INAUDIBLE]
games to make this more fun.

2168
01:33:46,310 --> 01:33:49,120
Then the out come of that,
by definition of unification.

2169
01:33:49,120 --> 01:33:53,125
Or not even by the design
process, just by the intention.

2170
01:33:53,125 --> 01:33:56,070
Does the user see
this as something

2171
01:33:56,070 --> 01:33:57,420
that is gamified or not?

2172
01:33:57,420 --> 01:34:00,177
Or did the designer, in doing
this, think about this as now

2173
01:34:00,177 --> 01:34:02,150
I'm doing gamification
or not, which

2174
01:34:02,150 --> 01:34:06,340
answers the question that some
people here ask saying well,

2175
01:34:06,340 --> 01:34:09,139
how come this [INAUDIBLE] of
ordinance called gamification,

2176
01:34:09,139 --> 01:34:11,015
whereas we have the
same kind of incentive

2177
01:34:11,015 --> 01:34:15,930
schemes in the big corporations
for decades before that?

2178
01:34:15,930 --> 01:34:18,490
And key performance indicators,
this intelligence dashboard.

2179
01:34:18,490 --> 01:34:20,365
Nobody called it
gamification, even though it

2180
01:34:20,365 --> 01:34:22,913
was the exact same thing.

2181
01:34:22,913 --> 01:34:26,022
It comes down to how do you
operationalize and formalize

2182
01:34:26,022 --> 01:34:27,315
that [INAUDIBLE]?

2183
01:34:27,315 --> 01:34:29,817
If you say it's dependent
on tension and you say well,

2184
01:34:29,817 --> 01:34:30,900
that wasn't the attention.

2185
01:34:30,900 --> 01:34:33,920
This wasn't intended to be
[INAUDIBLE], no matter what

2186
01:34:33,920 --> 01:34:37,084
it was [INAUDIBLE].

2187
01:34:37,084 --> 01:34:40,356
If I define gamification
by a certain feature list.

2188
01:34:40,356 --> 01:34:42,150
So as long as it fits
the feature list.

2189
01:34:42,150 --> 01:34:43,290
Yes?

2190
01:34:43,290 --> 01:34:45,115
So again, how do
you define the term?

2191
01:34:45,115 --> 01:34:47,095
And there, it follows
the [INAUDIBLE].

2192
01:34:56,270 --> 01:34:57,770
GABRIELLE
TREPANIER-JOBIN: Maybe you

2193
01:34:57,770 --> 01:35:02,330
can talk to kids about the
debates around gamification,

2194
01:35:02,330 --> 01:35:05,810
ideologies,
governance, surveyance.

2195
01:35:05,810 --> 01:35:09,330
Maybe it's not like you're an
expertise, or I don't know.

2196
01:35:11,622 --> 01:35:13,705
SEBASTIAN DETERDING: If I
talk about reproduction,

2197
01:35:13,705 --> 01:35:16,375
like gamification of
reproduction, that to me

2198
01:35:16,375 --> 01:35:20,778
is an immediate outflow of
[INAUDIBLE] gamification

2199
01:35:20,778 --> 01:35:21,977
as government [INAUDIBLE].

2200
01:35:21,977 --> 01:35:23,268
GABRIELLE TREPANIER-JOBIN: Mhm.

2201
01:35:23,268 --> 01:35:25,260
SEBASTIAN DETERDING: Definitely.

2202
01:35:25,260 --> 01:35:30,752
So I'm happy to talk about
governmentality and ideology.

2203
01:35:30,752 --> 01:35:31,710
That's a good question.

2204
01:35:31,710 --> 01:35:33,293
Other questions in
the room right now?

2205
01:35:33,293 --> 01:35:37,771
We also have two more
questions on the board.

2206
01:35:37,771 --> 01:35:38,270
Sorry.

2207
01:35:38,270 --> 01:35:39,686
AUDIENCE: I was
going back to what

2208
01:35:39,686 --> 01:35:43,970
you talked about earlier
on the note of autonomy

2209
01:35:43,970 --> 01:35:46,745
being the marker for whether
something feels like a game

2210
01:35:46,745 --> 01:35:48,589
or feels like gamification.

2211
01:35:48,589 --> 01:35:52,770
I feel like autonomy is almost
a loaded term, in this sense

2212
01:35:52,770 --> 01:35:55,220
and that yes, you
could have autonomy,

2213
01:35:55,220 --> 01:35:57,615
and that when someone
gives you a test,

2214
01:35:57,615 --> 01:35:59,052
you can decide how to do it.

2215
01:35:59,052 --> 01:36:01,686
And as long as you return
the test in a finished state,

2216
01:36:01,686 --> 01:36:03,655
then you're fine or whatever.

2217
01:36:03,655 --> 01:36:05,670
But there's also
not the autonomy

2218
01:36:05,670 --> 01:36:08,515
where you can go against the
logic of the system, which

2219
01:36:08,515 --> 01:36:10,722
in this case, would be
the logic of the business.

2220
01:36:10,722 --> 01:36:14,610
So I feel like in
this example, it

2221
01:36:14,610 --> 01:36:16,830
felt more like gamification
or a bad attempt

2222
01:36:16,830 --> 01:36:21,930
at gamification to these
people, because the logic was

2223
01:36:21,930 --> 01:36:23,030
pretty one directional.

2224
01:36:23,030 --> 01:36:27,040
It was only ever increasing the
end product for the business,

2225
01:36:27,040 --> 01:36:28,680
not letting OK.

2226
01:36:28,680 --> 01:36:32,030
If I want to, I can have
agency against the business.

2227
01:36:32,030 --> 01:36:35,297
And that might have
certain consequences,

2228
01:36:35,297 --> 01:36:36,797
but it would still
be like I already

2229
01:36:36,797 --> 01:36:38,958
know the consequences
beforehand as part

2230
01:36:38,958 --> 01:36:41,410
of having some sort of agency.

2231
01:36:41,410 --> 01:36:44,796
SEBASTIAN DETERDING: This
leads to an age old question

2232
01:36:44,796 --> 01:36:48,334
in humanism.

2233
01:36:48,334 --> 01:36:51,454
It goes back to Kant
and the Enlightenment.

2234
01:36:51,454 --> 01:36:54,080
It goes back to Aristotle.

2235
01:36:54,080 --> 01:36:59,660
That is the question, how do
you not instrumentalize people?

2236
01:36:59,660 --> 01:37:03,355
If you take the idea that people
are self-determined actors,

2237
01:37:03,355 --> 01:37:08,020
or that they can become--
we can help people race

2238
01:37:08,020 --> 01:37:10,790
towards being
self-driven actors.

2239
01:37:10,790 --> 01:37:13,829
How can we not make them
other determined actors

2240
01:37:13,829 --> 01:37:17,070
in [INAUDIBLE]?

2241
01:37:17,070 --> 01:37:20,430
And that's actually an
interesting question for me,

2242
01:37:20,430 --> 01:37:22,530
because I started out
working in civic education.

2243
01:37:22,530 --> 01:37:27,590
And civic education very much,
at least in Germany thanks

2244
01:37:27,590 --> 01:37:30,051
to the Second World War, and
then thanks to the Allied

2245
01:37:30,051 --> 01:37:31,550
Forces occupying
Germany and saying,

2246
01:37:31,550 --> 01:37:34,540
we should learn a thing
or two about democracy.

2247
01:37:34,540 --> 01:37:38,150
So civic education in
Germany, which originally

2248
01:37:38,150 --> 01:37:42,070
was a democracy age that happens
very interesting [INAUDIBLE].

2249
01:37:42,070 --> 01:37:46,680
How can we create
a democratic state?

2250
01:37:46,680 --> 01:37:49,350
Or can we educate
people about democracy

2251
01:37:49,350 --> 01:37:51,370
being a good thing
without ourselves

2252
01:37:51,370 --> 01:37:53,090
becoming a totalitarian rule?

2253
01:37:53,090 --> 01:37:57,310
Without this itself
becoming again, [INAUDIBLE]?

2254
01:37:57,310 --> 01:37:59,955
And the argument, or the
point that civic education

2255
01:37:59,955 --> 01:38:03,250
in Germany camp as the
moral stem point which

2256
01:38:03,250 --> 01:38:07,060
reflects the point that
Aristotle had for education,

2257
01:38:07,060 --> 01:38:09,826
in general-- how did we
get to educate people

2258
01:38:09,826 --> 01:38:12,700
to become really
selfish [INAUDIBLE]

2259
01:38:12,700 --> 01:38:19,125
is to say as long as for
all intensive purposes,

2260
01:38:19,125 --> 01:38:23,000
according to your own best
knowledge and intentions

2261
01:38:23,000 --> 01:38:27,550
you try to set up this
system of education such

2262
01:38:27,550 --> 01:38:32,030
that you enable the person
going through that education

2263
01:38:32,030 --> 01:38:34,813
at the end of it to make
the independent judgment

2264
01:38:34,813 --> 01:38:36,900
whether that education
is actually the best

2265
01:38:36,900 --> 01:38:40,090
possible thing happening to me,
so retrospectively embracing

2266
01:38:40,090 --> 01:38:44,434
what was done to [INAUDIBLE]
saying afterwards,

2267
01:38:44,434 --> 01:38:46,100
without you training
me some discipline,

2268
01:38:46,100 --> 01:38:48,580
I would have never
developed the faculties

2269
01:38:48,580 --> 01:38:51,110
in order to be able to be
an independent flourishing

2270
01:38:51,110 --> 01:38:51,610
[INAUDIBLE].

2271
01:38:51,610 --> 01:38:52,630
So thanks for that.

2272
01:38:52,630 --> 01:38:54,255
That was actually
good afterwards, even

2273
01:38:54,255 --> 01:38:56,600
though during the process,
I felt other [INAUDIBLE],

2274
01:38:56,600 --> 01:38:57,600
and I hated it.

2275
01:38:57,600 --> 01:39:02,230
But as long as you're doing
it in my best interest,

2276
01:39:02,230 --> 01:39:04,930
to bring me to the situation
where you can reflexively

2277
01:39:04,930 --> 01:39:08,560
look at what you did to me
and then say, that was wrong.

2278
01:39:08,560 --> 01:39:11,200
Let's change this.

2279
01:39:11,200 --> 01:39:13,260
So as long as everybody
going through the system

2280
01:39:13,260 --> 01:39:14,851
is the critical
corrector that comes out

2281
01:39:14,851 --> 01:39:16,794
to look afterwards at the system
that says this was actually

2282
01:39:16,794 --> 01:39:18,377
good, or this was
actually [INAUDIBLE]

2283
01:39:18,377 --> 01:39:19,431
way to change the system.

2284
01:39:19,431 --> 01:39:20,430
Then things [INAUDIBLE].

2285
01:39:20,430 --> 01:39:21,957
So that's the procedural order.

2286
01:39:21,957 --> 01:39:23,540
The system is built
with the intention

2287
01:39:23,540 --> 01:39:28,060
of making people critical--
changes of the system they

2288
01:39:28,060 --> 01:39:30,240
themselves run through,
then it's fine.

2289
01:39:30,240 --> 01:39:32,078
Then it supports
their independence

2290
01:39:32,078 --> 01:39:33,470
and their autonomy [INAUDIBLE].

2291
01:39:33,470 --> 01:39:34,400
AUDIENCE: I see.

2292
01:39:34,400 --> 01:39:36,483
SEBASTIAN DETERDING: There
are very few businesses

2293
01:39:36,483 --> 01:39:38,252
that do that that I'm aware of.

2294
01:39:38,252 --> 01:39:39,335
That's in civic education.

2295
01:39:39,335 --> 01:39:39,960
Oh there it is.

2296
01:39:39,960 --> 01:39:42,795
That's the answer to it.

2297
01:39:42,795 --> 01:39:45,294
We'll get to govermentality,
and we'll get to the two others

2298
01:39:45,294 --> 01:39:45,835
on the board.

2299
01:39:45,835 --> 01:39:50,068
Any other thing that you
would like to be addressed?

2300
01:39:50,068 --> 01:39:52,548
[INAUDIBLE] to worry about.

2301
01:39:57,504 --> 01:39:58,004
Sweet.

2302
01:39:58,004 --> 01:40:00,045
Then let's talk about
governmentality very quick,

2303
01:40:00,045 --> 01:40:03,058
and then about what is learning
from games or gamification?

2304
01:40:03,058 --> 01:40:07,430
So can we do this
interestingly or responsibly,

2305
01:40:07,430 --> 01:40:09,600
and can I have some of it?

2306
01:40:09,600 --> 01:40:12,475
So governmentality--
just a show of hands.

2307
01:40:12,475 --> 01:40:16,126
Who knows the term
governmentality?

2308
01:40:16,126 --> 01:40:17,620
Yeah.

2309
01:40:17,620 --> 01:40:19,631
It's this ugly
[INAUDIBLE] created

2310
01:40:19,631 --> 01:40:21,880
by Michel Foucault, which
was the bald, gay Frenchman.

2311
01:40:27,260 --> 01:40:28,319
It was correct, right?

2312
01:40:28,319 --> 01:40:29,360
Anything incorrect here--

2313
01:40:29,360 --> 01:40:31,026
GABRIELLE TREPANIER-JOBIN:
It's correct.

2314
01:40:32,282 --> 01:40:33,990
SEBASTIAN DETERDING:
I can only say that,

2315
01:40:33,990 --> 01:40:35,475
because I wrote
my master's thesis

2316
01:40:35,475 --> 01:40:37,100
chugging through old
books of Foucault,

2317
01:40:37,100 --> 01:40:42,800
so I feel I've
earned saying that.

2318
01:40:42,800 --> 01:40:44,725
Governmentality is
basically-- there

2319
01:40:44,725 --> 01:40:47,200
are lots of dimensions of how
it's basically been played.

2320
01:40:47,200 --> 01:40:50,740
But one part of that is to
say modern liberal nation

2321
01:40:50,740 --> 01:40:56,390
states, in specific, do
not rule by punishment.

2322
01:40:56,390 --> 01:41:00,060
They do not rule by if you do x
wrong, I'm going to whack you.

2323
01:41:00,060 --> 01:41:03,660
Or if you do x well, I'm
going to give you something.

2324
01:41:03,660 --> 01:41:06,570
They rule by putting
people into the mindset

2325
01:41:06,570 --> 01:41:08,649
that they individually
regulate themselves

2326
01:41:08,649 --> 01:41:09,565
and that they believe.

2327
01:41:09,565 --> 01:41:11,626
It's in their own best interest
to regulate their own behavior

2328
01:41:11,626 --> 01:41:13,075
that they internalize it.

2329
01:41:13,075 --> 01:41:14,699
It's a Freudian argument.

2330
01:41:14,699 --> 01:41:16,490
It's not my parents
telling me stuff to do.

2331
01:41:16,490 --> 01:41:20,310
I have my inner parents
telling me that I'm horrible.

2332
01:41:20,310 --> 01:41:22,470
So in the same way,
the state operates

2333
01:41:22,470 --> 01:41:24,760
by getting you to
internalize regulations

2334
01:41:24,760 --> 01:41:28,816
so that the state doesn't have
to inefficiently whack you

2335
01:41:28,816 --> 01:41:29,586
the whole time.

2336
01:41:33,290 --> 01:41:35,610
How does governmentality
connect to games?

2337
01:41:35,610 --> 01:41:38,150
Well, you can make the argument
gamification is specific.

2338
01:41:38,150 --> 01:41:41,500
Well, we can make the argument,
or I would make the argument

2339
01:41:41,500 --> 01:41:47,720
that a big part of how current
Western nation states manage

2340
01:41:47,720 --> 01:41:50,210
to keep this governmentality
is to tell us

2341
01:41:50,210 --> 01:41:51,570
in order to realize ourselves.

2342
01:41:51,570 --> 01:41:54,832
In order to be our best selves,
in order to be all we can be,

2343
01:41:54,832 --> 01:41:55,790
we have to self-manage.

2344
01:41:55,790 --> 01:41:57,410
We have to self-optimize.

2345
01:41:57,410 --> 01:41:59,930
We have to be productive,
productive productive,

2346
01:41:59,930 --> 01:42:02,157
and manage ourselves, and
become ever more productive

2347
01:42:02,157 --> 01:42:03,011
throughout.

2348
01:42:03,011 --> 01:42:05,450
And then gamification
will quantify itself.

2349
01:42:05,450 --> 01:42:07,630
All of these are basically
tools society then

2350
01:42:07,630 --> 01:42:09,869
gives us or people
give us to say,

2351
01:42:09,869 --> 01:42:12,160
these are ways in which you
can manage yourself better,

2352
01:42:12,160 --> 01:42:13,618
and these are ways
in which you can

2353
01:42:13,618 --> 01:42:16,545
monitor yourself better to make
yourself evermore productive.

2354
01:42:16,545 --> 01:42:18,785
And that was supporting
and reinforcing

2355
01:42:18,785 --> 01:42:21,120
the very societal system
at which we're all

2356
01:42:21,120 --> 01:42:25,350
kept to be as productive as
we can be-- that way, actually

2357
01:42:25,350 --> 01:42:28,585
regulating ourselves, instead
of having other people have

2358
01:42:28,585 --> 01:42:29,834
to regulate some of that form.

2359
01:42:29,834 --> 01:42:32,032
And then you can ask yourself,
is that actually a society

2360
01:42:32,032 --> 01:42:33,334
in which I want to live in?

2361
01:42:33,334 --> 01:42:35,290
Do I subscribe to that?

2362
01:42:35,290 --> 01:42:37,922
So that's my one minute
stick on governmentality.

2363
01:42:41,030 --> 01:42:42,660
What is good
learning from games,

2364
01:42:42,660 --> 01:42:44,880
or what is good gamification?

2365
01:42:44,880 --> 01:42:47,640
I tried in the
Eudaimonic design article

2366
01:42:47,640 --> 01:42:52,300
to tease that outwards,
[INAUDIBLE] on how to do this

2367
01:42:52,300 --> 01:42:55,270
well would look like, and
there's another article

2368
01:42:55,270 --> 01:42:59,475
out the lens of intrinsic skill
[INAUDIBLE] right now on SSRM,

2369
01:42:59,475 --> 01:43:01,270
and the proofs
should fly around.

2370
01:43:01,270 --> 01:43:03,270
Somewhere we've reached
the [INAUDIBLE] journal.

2371
01:43:03,270 --> 01:43:04,481
But there's another
article you could

2372
01:43:04,481 --> 01:43:06,330
find online, the lens
of intrinsic skill

2373
01:43:06,330 --> 01:43:10,140
[INAUDIBLE] where I describe
an actual design method.

2374
01:43:10,140 --> 01:43:12,760
The basic things, I
would say, is do not

2375
01:43:12,760 --> 01:43:14,090
put the cart before the voice.

2376
01:43:14,090 --> 01:43:15,625
That is if you're
a good designer

2377
01:43:15,625 --> 01:43:18,070
you do not say, this is a
solution space, gamification.

2378
01:43:18,070 --> 01:43:20,777
Now, where can I use it, but
work the other way around.

2379
01:43:20,777 --> 01:43:22,485
Look at the problem
and say, what problem

2380
01:43:22,485 --> 01:43:25,660
do I try to solve
in the context?

2381
01:43:25,660 --> 01:43:28,830
So good, very practical example.

2382
01:43:28,830 --> 01:43:32,540
A friend of mine
uses for Fitbit,

2383
01:43:32,540 --> 01:43:36,310
came in Rochester,
Upstate New York.

2384
01:43:36,310 --> 01:43:39,160
She walked about
3,000 steps a day.

2385
01:43:39,160 --> 01:43:42,544
She's now on a Fulbright
in Croatia in Dubrovnik,

2386
01:43:42,544 --> 01:43:43,210
and [INAUDIBLE].

2387
01:43:46,765 --> 01:43:49,010
Is that a sudden
boost of motivation?

2388
01:43:49,010 --> 01:43:50,820
Is that a sudden
boost of willpower?

2389
01:43:50,820 --> 01:43:55,745
Is that because the Fitbit
has a new feature or some new

2390
01:43:55,745 --> 01:43:57,830
achievements to unlock?

2391
01:43:57,830 --> 01:44:02,335
It's because if you try to get
around in Dubrovnik with a car,

2392
01:44:02,335 --> 01:44:05,090
it's the most complicated
and inefficient way

2393
01:44:05,090 --> 01:44:06,140
of getting around.

2394
01:44:06,140 --> 01:44:09,830
And the city is basically just
one huge flight of stairs.

2395
01:44:09,830 --> 01:44:11,730
So there is no way
for you to do anything

2396
01:44:11,730 --> 01:44:15,310
but walk through your whole day.

2397
01:44:15,310 --> 01:44:19,030
So if I look, Step
Trackers has this solution

2398
01:44:19,030 --> 01:44:21,140
to people's lacking mobility.

2399
01:44:21,140 --> 01:44:24,305
I say well, it's not as
if Americans are slackers

2400
01:44:24,305 --> 01:44:30,260
and Europeans are
monsters of willpower.

2401
01:44:30,260 --> 01:44:32,820
It's just when I was back
in Hamburg, getting around

2402
01:44:32,820 --> 01:44:36,420
in [INAUDIBLE] was the easiest,
cheapest, most efficient

2403
01:44:36,420 --> 01:44:40,807
way to get form A to B, so
I was biking all the time.

2404
01:44:40,807 --> 01:44:42,390
And it was completely
self-sufficient,

2405
01:44:42,390 --> 01:44:43,900
because whenever I couldn't
reach something with a bike,

2406
01:44:43,900 --> 01:44:46,445
I could reach it with a well
built out public transportation

2407
01:44:46,445 --> 01:44:47,410
system.

2408
01:44:47,410 --> 01:44:49,910
And drivers, therefore, were
expecting that there were bikes

2409
01:44:49,910 --> 01:44:52,750
all the time.

2410
01:44:52,750 --> 01:44:55,670
Here, especially in Rochester,
which is a car city-- other way

2411
01:44:55,670 --> 01:44:56,980
around.

2412
01:44:56,980 --> 01:44:59,470
I couldn't bike,
even if I wanted to.

2413
01:44:59,470 --> 01:45:01,910
The city architecture
works against me.

2414
01:45:01,910 --> 01:45:04,320
Drivers not being used
to that works against me.

2415
01:45:04,320 --> 01:45:06,130
Wrong roads works against me.

2416
01:45:06,130 --> 01:45:07,720
So suddenly, I
need all willpower

2417
01:45:07,720 --> 01:45:10,980
to put myself against the
friction of the environment

2418
01:45:10,980 --> 01:45:13,345
to bike against all odds.

2419
01:45:13,345 --> 01:45:14,970
So don't put the cart
before the horse.

2420
01:45:14,970 --> 01:45:16,496
Look at the problem
and say oh, we actually

2421
01:45:16,496 --> 01:45:17,579
have to change the zoning.

2422
01:45:17,579 --> 01:45:19,100
If we introduce
mixed zoning, people

2423
01:45:19,100 --> 01:45:21,930
will walk, because there's an
easier way between supermarket

2424
01:45:21,930 --> 01:45:25,790
and home, and you will just
walk the small ways [INAUDIBLE].

2425
01:45:25,790 --> 01:45:28,487
So that's the first part.

2426
01:45:28,487 --> 01:45:30,570
And then the second part
is part of your analysis.

2427
01:45:30,570 --> 01:45:32,446
So say to yourself, is
motivation the issue?

2428
01:45:32,446 --> 01:45:35,280
What games do well is indeed,
motivate in certain ways.

2429
01:45:35,280 --> 01:45:37,780
That are things that are fun
and enjoyable to a lot of kids.

2430
01:45:37,780 --> 01:45:39,905
And look at the issue and
say, is motivation really

2431
01:45:39,905 --> 01:45:44,390
what is lacking here, motivation
due to a lack of structure,

2432
01:45:44,390 --> 01:45:46,755
due to a lack of
frequent feedback,

2433
01:45:46,755 --> 01:45:49,595
due to a lack of clearly
explicated goals,

2434
01:45:49,595 --> 01:45:52,280
due to a lack of interestingly
varied challenge?

2435
01:45:52,280 --> 01:45:54,090
And again, all of these
are the components

2436
01:45:54,090 --> 01:45:56,296
by which games
actually create fun,

2437
01:45:56,296 --> 01:45:57,670
engaging experience
of competence

2438
01:45:57,670 --> 01:46:00,800
being absorbed in the activity.

2439
01:46:00,800 --> 01:46:03,150
If that's the case, great.

2440
01:46:03,150 --> 01:46:04,580
Take structures from games.

2441
01:46:04,580 --> 01:46:05,700
Take those structures.

2442
01:46:05,700 --> 01:46:07,550
Have better articulated goals.

2443
01:46:07,550 --> 01:46:08,747
Have more frequent feedback.

2444
01:46:08,747 --> 01:46:10,330
Vary the challenge
in interesting ways

2445
01:46:10,330 --> 01:46:13,580
so I don't do the same old thing
over, and over, and over again.

2446
01:46:13,580 --> 01:46:16,190
If that's not the issue, why
should you even try games?

2447
01:46:16,190 --> 01:46:18,540
Again, using the wrong tool.

2448
01:46:18,540 --> 01:46:22,800
Like 80% of problems
where I get flown in,

2449
01:46:22,800 --> 01:46:25,485
I look at whatever software
thinking they built and say,

2450
01:46:25,485 --> 01:46:26,610
you have a usability issue.

2451
01:46:26,610 --> 01:46:29,230
You don't have an
engagement issue.

2452
01:46:29,230 --> 01:46:32,000
First people have to figure out
where even to click before you

2453
01:46:32,000 --> 01:46:33,927
have to motivate them
to click, and that's

2454
01:46:33,927 --> 01:46:35,260
hard, and [INAUDIBLE] interface.

2455
01:46:35,260 --> 01:46:36,500
Let's fix that first.

2456
01:46:40,870 --> 01:46:43,445
So that's the short answer.

2457
01:46:43,445 --> 01:46:46,254
And the long answer then,
look into that article,

2458
01:46:46,254 --> 01:46:50,006
and I go into great lengths
to [INAUDIBLE] one, what is it

2459
01:46:50,006 --> 01:46:53,590
we can assure in games?

2460
01:46:53,590 --> 01:46:56,160
Any final questions?

2461
01:47:00,265 --> 01:47:02,140
GABRIELLE TREPANIER-JOBIN:
Thank you so much.

2462
01:47:02,140 --> 01:47:03,431
SEBASTIAN DETERDING: Thank you.

2463
01:47:03,431 --> 01:47:04,390
[APPLAUSE]