1 00:00:00,070 --> 00:00:02,500 The following content is provided under a Creative 2 00:00:02,500 --> 00:00:04,019 Commons license. 3 00:00:04,019 --> 00:00:06,360 Your support will help MIT OpenCourseWare 4 00:00:06,360 --> 00:00:10,730 continue to offer high-quality educational resources for free. 5 00:00:10,730 --> 00:00:13,340 To make a donation or view additional materials 6 00:00:13,340 --> 00:00:17,217 from hundreds of MIT courses, visit MIT OpenCourseWare 7 00:00:17,217 --> 00:00:17,842 at ocw.mit.edu. 8 00:00:21,736 --> 00:00:23,610 LARA BALADI: That demonstration I had been to 9 00:00:23,610 --> 00:00:27,260 was for peace in Lebanon during the war in 2006. 10 00:00:27,260 --> 00:00:31,503 And so it wasn't-- there was no reason for so much police to be 11 00:00:31,503 --> 00:00:32,003 there. 12 00:00:32,003 --> 00:00:35,460 We were there to ask for peace in the region. 13 00:00:35,460 --> 00:00:38,300 So it wasn't about revolution or toppling 14 00:00:38,300 --> 00:00:40,430 the president or whatever. 15 00:00:40,430 --> 00:00:43,760 So I was really shocked that there 16 00:00:43,760 --> 00:00:49,090 was this really ridiculous kind of fear 17 00:00:49,090 --> 00:00:52,820 from the Amn ad-Dawla, the State Security. 18 00:00:52,820 --> 00:00:56,660 And of course, what happens is that when 19 00:00:56,660 --> 00:00:58,880 somebody makes a little gesture, and there's 20 00:00:58,880 --> 00:01:00,040 like a panic movement. 21 00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:03,570 And of course, the police takes advantage of it and panics, 22 00:01:03,570 --> 00:01:05,930 because they're 17 years old or so, the policemen. 23 00:01:05,930 --> 00:01:06,900 They're terrified. 24 00:01:06,900 --> 00:01:08,420 And everybody's terrified. 25 00:01:08,420 --> 00:01:09,420 Except they're armed. 26 00:01:09,420 --> 00:01:12,940 And they start beating people up and arresting people. 27 00:01:12,940 --> 00:01:15,770 So from there, I thought on the 25th of June, 28 00:01:15,770 --> 00:01:17,470 I thought, I'm not going down. 29 00:01:17,470 --> 00:01:20,320 I know what's going to end up happening. 30 00:01:20,320 --> 00:01:21,950 I'm going to get beaten up. 31 00:01:21,950 --> 00:01:25,340 And then I realized I'm like everybody else. 32 00:01:25,340 --> 00:01:26,790 I'm afraid. 33 00:01:26,790 --> 00:01:28,620 And the whole point of the revolution 34 00:01:28,620 --> 00:01:29,580 was to break that fear. 35 00:01:29,580 --> 00:01:32,770 It was really that suddenly nobody was afraid anymore, 36 00:01:32,770 --> 00:01:34,334 and that we actually really went. 37 00:01:34,334 --> 00:01:36,500 And the fact that we were all together in the street 38 00:01:36,500 --> 00:01:38,760 was, like, OK, we're not afraid, because also we're 39 00:01:38,760 --> 00:01:39,990 all together. 40 00:01:39,990 --> 00:01:42,080 And it was really extraordinary. 41 00:01:42,080 --> 00:01:46,140 But I also saw that I wasn't a photographer anymore. 42 00:01:46,140 --> 00:01:50,250 I had, like, 25 years ago began my career as a photographer 43 00:01:50,250 --> 00:01:52,930 and kind of got a little bit out of it 44 00:01:52,930 --> 00:01:57,010 from watching digital cameras and everybody 45 00:01:57,010 --> 00:02:00,670 becoming a photographer was also part of my-- sort of how 46 00:02:00,670 --> 00:02:01,760 I evolved as an artist. 47 00:02:01,760 --> 00:02:05,500 And so I moved into using images, but not so much being 48 00:02:05,500 --> 00:02:08,430 so focused on making images. 49 00:02:08,430 --> 00:02:13,180 So for me, my role in the revolution 50 00:02:13,180 --> 00:02:17,280 was to really be there as an Egyptian, 51 00:02:17,280 --> 00:02:20,220 and to be there as a person who loves that country, 52 00:02:20,220 --> 00:02:23,890 and who wants to really see something 53 00:02:23,890 --> 00:02:25,930 through in that movement. 54 00:02:25,930 --> 00:02:29,830 So I really put myself, as an artist, actually outside 55 00:02:29,830 --> 00:02:33,800 of everything, and for quite a long time, just watched. 56 00:02:33,800 --> 00:02:35,270 I participated. 57 00:02:35,270 --> 00:02:35,980 I was there. 58 00:02:35,980 --> 00:02:37,940 I met people. 59 00:02:37,940 --> 00:02:39,110 I helped people. 60 00:02:39,110 --> 00:02:40,770 I was in the Square all the time. 61 00:02:40,770 --> 00:02:44,500 But I did not take lead in a way. 62 00:02:44,500 --> 00:02:46,432 I did not produce art. 63 00:02:46,432 --> 00:02:47,640 I didn't want to do anything. 64 00:02:47,640 --> 00:02:49,120 I just thought this is too much. 65 00:02:49,120 --> 00:02:52,650 I need to process what's going on. 66 00:02:52,650 --> 00:02:54,490 So it's much later in the process 67 00:02:54,490 --> 00:02:58,340 that I started to kind of take action 68 00:02:58,340 --> 00:03:01,015 in a way, or a different action than being 69 00:03:01,015 --> 00:03:03,800 a citizen demonstrating. 70 00:03:03,800 --> 00:03:08,340 And this is when these other Tahrir 71 00:03:08,340 --> 00:03:13,760 Cinema and sort of very time-based experiences 72 00:03:13,760 --> 00:03:14,540 sort of happened. 73 00:03:14,540 --> 00:03:17,950 But that we'll talk about a bit later. 74 00:03:17,950 --> 00:03:23,580 But my role, really-- I saw my role as someone who could, 75 00:03:23,580 --> 00:03:26,740 from my experience and the community that I know, someone 76 00:03:26,740 --> 00:03:29,500 who could really connect people to each other, 77 00:03:29,500 --> 00:03:32,220 and also watch a lot of younger people than me, 78 00:03:32,220 --> 00:03:35,000 and see that I could really-- I had the experience 79 00:03:35,000 --> 00:03:36,020 that they didn't have. 80 00:03:36,020 --> 00:03:39,060 But they had, maybe, the tools and the ways 81 00:03:39,060 --> 00:03:42,510 to operate that I also-- my generation-- didn't have. 82 00:03:42,510 --> 00:03:44,560 My generation was much more individualistic, 83 00:03:44,560 --> 00:03:46,860 and also a little bit like a satellite. 84 00:03:46,860 --> 00:03:50,900 We worked as, like-- we were apolitical, in a way. 85 00:03:50,900 --> 00:03:54,420 We were sort of-- I think we were-- 86 00:03:54,420 --> 00:03:56,540 a lot of us were a little bit outside 87 00:03:56,540 --> 00:03:59,060 of the political sphere, because that wasn't the way 88 00:03:59,060 --> 00:04:01,250 to operate at the time. 89 00:04:01,250 --> 00:04:01,750 So 90 00:04:01,750 --> 00:04:04,235 To watch suddenly this new generation come in 91 00:04:04,235 --> 00:04:08,260 and be very, very strong about their political views and using 92 00:04:08,260 --> 00:04:11,470 social media and so on was, like, OK, 93 00:04:11,470 --> 00:04:13,766 what can I give that they don't have? 94 00:04:13,766 --> 00:04:14,890 And so it was really great. 95 00:04:14,890 --> 00:04:18,939 Because I met a lot of people and I worked in that way 96 00:04:18,939 --> 00:04:20,000 with a lot of people. 97 00:04:20,000 --> 00:04:25,294 So it was a very organic time, in that sense. 98 00:04:25,294 --> 00:04:27,460 And it led to a lot of things which we'll talk about 99 00:04:27,460 --> 00:04:29,010 [INAUDIBLE]. 100 00:04:29,010 --> 00:04:31,270 PROFESSOR: We have a lot to talk about. 101 00:04:31,270 --> 00:04:33,060 In the classroom last week, we were asking 102 00:04:33,060 --> 00:04:35,600 ourselves, what is an activist? 103 00:04:35,600 --> 00:04:38,900 How much someone should be involved in a cause 104 00:04:38,900 --> 00:04:41,755 to qualify as an activist? 105 00:04:41,755 --> 00:04:45,860 And we were comparing anonymous members with Aaron Swartz. 106 00:04:45,860 --> 00:04:48,630 And we were concluding that Aaron Swartz was much more 107 00:04:48,630 --> 00:04:50,815 dedicated to the cause than people 108 00:04:50,815 --> 00:04:56,630 who just do sit-in, online sit-in from time to time. 109 00:04:56,630 --> 00:04:59,850 I guess my question would be in this case, 110 00:04:59,850 --> 00:05:03,720 are all protesters activists in the context of a revolution? 111 00:05:03,720 --> 00:05:05,935 And do you consider yourself as an activist? 112 00:05:05,935 --> 00:05:09,906 And when does the artist become an activist? 113 00:05:09,906 --> 00:05:11,530 LARA BALADI: So no, not every protester 114 00:05:11,530 --> 00:05:13,240 is an activist-- for sure not. 115 00:05:13,240 --> 00:05:16,020 I think every protester is a citizen. 116 00:05:16,020 --> 00:05:20,230 Every protester that comes to a demonstration 117 00:05:20,230 --> 00:05:22,040 doesn't necessarily know why they're 118 00:05:22,040 --> 00:05:23,240 coming to a demonstration. 119 00:05:23,240 --> 00:05:25,210 But this is a huge discussion. 120 00:05:25,210 --> 00:05:29,230 But in the case of Tahrir, a lot of people-- 121 00:05:29,230 --> 00:05:35,430 there was something kind of almost funny, when you look 122 00:05:35,430 --> 00:05:38,500 at it in retrospect, is that-- I don't know if you remember, 123 00:05:38,500 --> 00:05:45,020 if you know-- but on the 25th of Jan, the first group of people 124 00:05:45,020 --> 00:05:46,780 go and demonstrate. 125 00:05:46,780 --> 00:05:53,960 On the 26th and 27th, they-- the main activists 126 00:05:53,960 --> 00:05:58,360 of that first demonstration-- start 127 00:05:58,360 --> 00:06:01,160 to kind of confuse the police and exhaust the police, which 128 00:06:01,160 --> 00:06:02,530 was a technique. 129 00:06:02,530 --> 00:06:08,010 On the 28th of Jan, everybody is called to come to the square. 130 00:06:08,010 --> 00:06:08,957 It's a Friday. 131 00:06:08,957 --> 00:06:10,915 In Egypt, Friday is the equivalent of a Sunday. 132 00:06:13,510 --> 00:06:18,460 On the 27th at night, before this Friday where everybody's 133 00:06:18,460 --> 00:06:20,210 on holiday-- nobody's going to go to work, 134 00:06:20,210 --> 00:06:23,190 so it's much more scary for the government, 135 00:06:23,190 --> 00:06:24,660 because they know more people are 136 00:06:24,660 --> 00:06:31,070 free to go demonstrating-- the tension was growing 137 00:06:31,070 --> 00:06:34,400 throughout the country, not just in Cairo. 138 00:06:34,400 --> 00:06:40,340 And at 7:00 PM, there was rumors that the government would stop 139 00:06:40,340 --> 00:06:42,120 our telephones and internet. 140 00:06:42,120 --> 00:06:45,260 At 9:00 PM, we couldn't talk to each other on the phone. 141 00:06:45,260 --> 00:06:46,594 We can only text. 142 00:06:46,594 --> 00:06:48,610 At 11:00 PM, we couldn't text. 143 00:06:48,610 --> 00:06:51,630 At 6:00 AM, we couldn't email anybody or open internet. 144 00:06:51,630 --> 00:06:53,790 So it's kind of stupid. 145 00:06:53,790 --> 00:06:57,380 Because what do you do when you don't have internet, telephone, 146 00:06:57,380 --> 00:06:59,570 and you don't have a landline anymore? 147 00:06:59,570 --> 00:07:02,330 What's your natural instinct? 148 00:07:02,330 --> 00:07:03,650 AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE]. 149 00:07:03,650 --> 00:07:06,570 LARA BALADI: You go out, try to go to [INAUDIBLE]. 150 00:07:06,570 --> 00:07:09,190 So it's in a funny way, almost, I'd 151 00:07:09,190 --> 00:07:13,460 say it's almost the government helped initiate this 152 00:07:13,460 --> 00:07:15,346 by shutting us down. 153 00:07:15,346 --> 00:07:16,720 And so of course, we're all going 154 00:07:16,720 --> 00:07:17,730 to go look for each other. 155 00:07:17,730 --> 00:07:19,300 So everybody goes down to the street 156 00:07:19,300 --> 00:07:21,841 in their area and talks to each other, says, what's going on? 157 00:07:21,841 --> 00:07:23,216 Oh, let's go to Tahrir. 158 00:07:23,216 --> 00:07:25,090 Because of course, we already know that there 159 00:07:25,090 --> 00:07:27,540 are demonstrations going on. 160 00:07:27,540 --> 00:07:30,650 So most of the people are already 161 00:07:30,650 --> 00:07:33,920 informed that there are demonstrations and marches that 162 00:07:33,920 --> 00:07:37,160 will start after the Friday prayer 163 00:07:37,160 --> 00:07:41,630 at 1:00 from a lot of the main mosques around the cities. 164 00:07:41,630 --> 00:07:45,240 But most of the people who are not part of these marches 165 00:07:45,240 --> 00:07:47,952 necessarily will sort of naturally join. 166 00:07:47,952 --> 00:07:49,160 And so this is what happened. 167 00:07:49,160 --> 00:07:53,690 So people found out about the reasons 168 00:07:53,690 --> 00:07:57,220 why this is happening, how this is shaping itself 169 00:07:57,220 --> 00:07:58,480 as it was happening. 170 00:07:58,480 --> 00:08:01,460 There was no real-- it's not like everybody 171 00:08:01,460 --> 00:08:03,420 knew why they were going down. 172 00:08:03,420 --> 00:08:07,340 So people found themselves activists, maybe after five 173 00:08:07,340 --> 00:08:09,570 days, 10 days, maybe overnight. 174 00:08:09,570 --> 00:08:11,660 So a good example-- and he's here 175 00:08:11,660 --> 00:08:13,500 Harvard if you have a chance to go, 176 00:08:13,500 --> 00:08:17,350 maybe meet him or find out about him-- but there's somebody, 177 00:08:17,350 --> 00:08:22,660 like a good example is Bassem Youssef who's 178 00:08:22,660 --> 00:08:26,290 a comic now that's compared to Jon Stewart in the US. 179 00:08:26,290 --> 00:08:29,060 But he was a heart surgeon. 180 00:08:29,060 --> 00:08:30,040 He was a doctor. 181 00:08:30,040 --> 00:08:30,730 He was studying. 182 00:08:30,730 --> 00:08:32,271 I think he was still, like, finishing 183 00:08:32,271 --> 00:08:36,659 his studies or something, or a very early practitioner. 184 00:08:36,659 --> 00:08:40,820 He filmed himself talking about what was happening, posted 185 00:08:40,820 --> 00:08:44,250 the video on YouTube, three months later had already five 186 00:08:44,250 --> 00:08:45,660 million people watching him. 187 00:08:45,660 --> 00:08:47,640 And then a month later, a TV that 188 00:08:47,640 --> 00:08:51,240 came out of the revolution-- so a free channel-- asked 189 00:08:51,240 --> 00:08:52,510 him to do a show. 190 00:08:52,510 --> 00:08:54,530 And he became a really famous figure 191 00:08:54,530 --> 00:08:56,630 over the period of two years that followed. 192 00:08:56,630 --> 00:08:59,580 So this is an example of someone who's a citizen, 193 00:08:59,580 --> 00:09:02,640 but then becomes an activist, but then becomes-- 194 00:09:02,640 --> 00:09:03,905 finds a new voice for himself. 195 00:09:03,905 --> 00:09:05,780 PROFESSOR: So it's a fluid category, kind of. 196 00:09:05,780 --> 00:09:08,840 LARA BALADI: So I mean, everybody changed our life. 197 00:09:08,840 --> 00:09:11,410 Like, I mean, everybody-- maybe a lot of people. 198 00:09:11,410 --> 00:09:14,590 But I would say that we all lost our friends 199 00:09:14,590 --> 00:09:15,554 and made new friends. 200 00:09:15,554 --> 00:09:17,720 Because suddenly when you can't talk about politics, 201 00:09:17,720 --> 00:09:20,710 you realize that you don't get along with anyone around you. 202 00:09:20,710 --> 00:09:23,890 And it's like, oops, I don't think so. 203 00:09:23,890 --> 00:09:28,610 This is such a huge, impactful moment in history. 204 00:09:28,610 --> 00:09:31,640 You cannot make a compromise. 205 00:09:31,640 --> 00:09:32,800 There's no time for it. 206 00:09:32,800 --> 00:09:34,090 There's no energy for it. 207 00:09:34,090 --> 00:09:36,840 And it's going so fast, and it's so intense. 208 00:09:36,840 --> 00:09:39,290 You have to go to what you believe for. 209 00:09:39,290 --> 00:09:40,490 And so you make choices. 210 00:09:40,490 --> 00:09:42,290 And these choices-- you watch people 211 00:09:42,290 --> 00:09:44,440 sort of drop out of your life. 212 00:09:44,440 --> 00:09:47,045 Suddenly, you're completely negotiating 213 00:09:47,045 --> 00:09:50,980 a completely differ-- so these aren't fixed-- what you are 214 00:09:50,980 --> 00:09:53,930 and how you [INAUDIBLE] that. 215 00:09:53,930 --> 00:09:57,120 And to talk about how an artist becomes, 216 00:09:57,120 --> 00:09:59,670 what an artist does in a revolution, 217 00:09:59,670 --> 00:10:08,250 I mean, this example behind me is a piece that I did in 2007. 218 00:10:08,250 --> 00:10:11,270 And the revolution started in 2011. 219 00:10:11,270 --> 00:10:13,060 To give you a configuration of Cairo, 220 00:10:13,060 --> 00:10:15,370 you have those famous lions that you 221 00:10:15,370 --> 00:10:20,750 see the picture are the entrance of a famous bridge, 222 00:10:20,750 --> 00:10:22,500 called the [INAUDIBLE] Bridge, [INAUDIBLE] 223 00:10:22,500 --> 00:10:25,780 means bridge, so the Nile Bridge. 224 00:10:25,780 --> 00:10:31,150 And in front of those lions, actually, is Tahrir. 225 00:10:31,150 --> 00:10:34,760 So it's a landmark a little bit like the Pyramids or the Eiffel 226 00:10:34,760 --> 00:10:35,850 Tower. 227 00:10:35,850 --> 00:10:39,360 It's a famous area in Cairo, and people would naturally 228 00:10:39,360 --> 00:10:41,320 go visit it. 229 00:10:41,320 --> 00:10:44,330 And so in 2007, I made this piece, 230 00:10:44,330 --> 00:10:46,700 which is called Justice for the Mother. 231 00:10:46,700 --> 00:10:51,070 Egypt in Arabic is called the Mother 232 00:10:51,070 --> 00:10:52,700 of the World, Um al-Dunya. 233 00:10:55,250 --> 00:11:00,070 And so this work was really a work about-- it was actually 234 00:11:00,070 --> 00:11:03,340 a portrait of my father and a portrait 235 00:11:03,340 --> 00:11:06,910 of the law of the jungle-- the strongest 236 00:11:06,910 --> 00:11:10,650 is always the one that wins a fight. 237 00:11:10,650 --> 00:11:12,300 But while I'm doing this work and sort 238 00:11:12,300 --> 00:11:14,090 of studying this kind of psychology 239 00:11:14,090 --> 00:11:16,820 of how human beings fight each other, and who wins 240 00:11:16,820 --> 00:11:21,170 and who loses, using these images 241 00:11:21,170 --> 00:11:26,000 that I've collected in my work, I 242 00:11:26,000 --> 00:11:28,900 attended this demonstration I told you about, 243 00:11:28,900 --> 00:11:32,210 where this huge cordon of police was circling us. 244 00:11:32,210 --> 00:11:34,260 And I was really shocked by it, because nobody 245 00:11:34,260 --> 00:11:38,100 in that demonstration had the same purpose. 246 00:11:38,100 --> 00:11:40,050 There was five or six people who were actually 247 00:11:40,050 --> 00:11:40,979 there for Lebanon. 248 00:11:40,979 --> 00:11:43,020 But really, people were there because either they 249 00:11:43,020 --> 00:11:46,520 were passing by, or they were activists, 250 00:11:46,520 --> 00:11:50,730 or they were asking for the bread to be less expensive. 251 00:11:50,730 --> 00:11:53,630 I mean, everybody had a kind of different cause and purpose. 252 00:11:53,630 --> 00:12:00,160 And so this sort of like weird incoherence 253 00:12:00,160 --> 00:12:02,470 of that demonstration really stuck with me. 254 00:12:02,470 --> 00:12:03,537 And so this was a parody. 255 00:12:03,537 --> 00:12:05,120 So this is a detail of the piece where 256 00:12:05,120 --> 00:12:07,957 it's a parody of people demonstrating and asking 257 00:12:07,957 --> 00:12:08,540 for something. 258 00:12:08,540 --> 00:12:11,860 But everybody seems to be, like, on their own. 259 00:12:11,860 --> 00:12:13,500 So you can see John Travolta, which 260 00:12:13,500 --> 00:12:17,970 is not your generation, but a little bit mine. 261 00:12:17,970 --> 00:12:21,030 Condoleezza Rice during the war in Lebanon, 262 00:12:21,030 --> 00:12:24,220 so with bombs and missiles that say, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, 263 00:12:24,220 --> 00:12:27,110 I'm sorry, and all kinds of character 264 00:12:27,110 --> 00:12:30,910 that seem to be revolting. 265 00:12:30,910 --> 00:12:35,906 And so interestingly, when Tahrir started, 266 00:12:35,906 --> 00:12:37,280 suddenly I look at my work, and I 267 00:12:37,280 --> 00:12:38,738 think, what am I supposed to do now 268 00:12:38,738 --> 00:12:41,570 that there's this huge revolution 269 00:12:41,570 --> 00:12:43,790 or uprising happening? 270 00:12:43,790 --> 00:12:45,070 Am I supposed to work? 271 00:12:45,070 --> 00:12:47,390 And I'm watching all these kids and all these people 272 00:12:47,390 --> 00:12:49,630 produ-- even citizens, not just artists, 273 00:12:49,630 --> 00:12:53,465 but citizens producing videos, and uploading footage, 274 00:12:53,465 --> 00:12:57,460 and making jokes, and doing this crazy, amazing stuff. 275 00:12:57,460 --> 00:12:59,190 And I don't work like this. 276 00:12:59,190 --> 00:13:01,940 I work-- I take time to work. 277 00:13:01,940 --> 00:13:03,900 And I worked under dictatorship. 278 00:13:03,900 --> 00:13:08,140 So in a way, my work was shaped by the stagnant regime 279 00:13:08,140 --> 00:13:10,360 under which I was working, and which 280 00:13:10,360 --> 00:13:15,980 I was trying to also sort of mirror by making work 281 00:13:15,980 --> 00:13:18,640 that kind of demands attention and in a sense 282 00:13:18,640 --> 00:13:21,590 are heavy sometimes, but that mirrored 283 00:13:21,590 --> 00:13:25,970 that kind of rigidity of the regime I was working under. 284 00:13:25,970 --> 00:13:29,160 And looking back at this work as one of the works 285 00:13:29,160 --> 00:13:32,740 was really funny, because I was, like, wow, 286 00:13:32,740 --> 00:13:36,340 I depicted a kind of problematic paradise 287 00:13:36,340 --> 00:13:39,200 behind those lines, which is-- it's 288 00:13:39,200 --> 00:13:41,660 actually a portrait of Tahrir. 289 00:13:41,660 --> 00:13:45,980 And that's how it felt. That's how 290 00:13:45,980 --> 00:13:49,360 the being 18 days in the square really 291 00:13:49,360 --> 00:13:54,230 felt like there was a possible world that we 292 00:13:54,230 --> 00:13:57,860 had to experience, and we were experiencing 293 00:13:57,860 --> 00:14:00,430 in very small moments. 294 00:14:00,430 --> 00:14:02,740 But those moments where this is a possibility, 295 00:14:02,740 --> 00:14:04,550 this is a seed of something that could 296 00:14:04,550 --> 00:14:08,190 happen-- maybe in 2,000 years, maybe 200 years, maybe 297 00:14:08,190 --> 00:14:08,790 in 10 years. 298 00:14:08,790 --> 00:14:10,040 We don't know, maybe tomorrow. 299 00:14:10,040 --> 00:14:10,880 I have no idea. 300 00:14:10,880 --> 00:14:12,950 But it's possible. 301 00:14:12,950 --> 00:14:16,880 And it's that sort of sense that really 302 00:14:16,880 --> 00:14:18,640 was really interesting for me. 303 00:14:18,640 --> 00:14:21,660 And it took me a long time to kind of think, OK, 304 00:14:21,660 --> 00:14:23,730 how do I work now? 305 00:14:23,730 --> 00:14:25,170 So this is also another question. 306 00:14:25,170 --> 00:14:27,100 Because then I start collecting footage 307 00:14:27,100 --> 00:14:30,190 and working with archive, and collecting pictures. 308 00:14:30,190 --> 00:14:33,700 But I wanted to show this as a kind of relationship 309 00:14:33,700 --> 00:14:38,780 to how the world changed overnight. 310 00:14:38,780 --> 00:14:43,011 And so there was a moment of reflection and kind 311 00:14:43,011 --> 00:14:46,808 of absorbing what was happening before doing things. 312 00:14:46,808 --> 00:14:48,766 PROFESSOR: This was made before the revolution. 313 00:14:48,766 --> 00:14:50,702 LARA BALADI: Yes, 2007, four years before. 314 00:14:50,702 --> 00:14:52,160 PROFESSOR: I think it kind of shows 315 00:14:52,160 --> 00:14:55,430 that your work was already political 316 00:14:55,430 --> 00:14:58,074 before the revolution, even though you didn't really 317 00:14:58,074 --> 00:14:58,880 notice. 318 00:14:58,880 --> 00:15:00,296 There was something political in-- 319 00:15:00,296 --> 00:15:02,250 LARA BALADI: No, I did notice. 320 00:15:02,250 --> 00:15:03,930 I did notice. 321 00:15:03,930 --> 00:15:06,740 But it was just a different language I was using. 322 00:15:06,740 --> 00:15:10,370 I mean, this work-- this is Cairo. 323 00:15:10,370 --> 00:15:11,420 I want to show you. 324 00:15:11,420 --> 00:15:15,210 These are informal areas in Cairo, 325 00:15:15,210 --> 00:15:20,110 which are basically illegal constructions and slums. 326 00:15:20,110 --> 00:15:23,870 And this was a tower that I built in the Opera House 327 00:15:23,870 --> 00:15:26,420 in the center of Cairo, which is a military base, 328 00:15:26,420 --> 00:15:28,310 and which is where the Biennial of art 329 00:15:28,310 --> 00:15:30,690 takes place-- used to take place. 330 00:15:30,690 --> 00:15:34,560 And so this work was directly a kind of statement 331 00:15:34,560 --> 00:15:37,690 to the government to say OK, the subject of your Biennial 332 00:15:37,690 --> 00:15:39,470 is the others. 333 00:15:39,470 --> 00:15:41,932 So what are you doing with the others? 334 00:15:41,932 --> 00:15:44,140 Who are the others in relationship to the government? 335 00:15:44,140 --> 00:15:46,176 They're all the people they're not addressing. 336 00:15:46,176 --> 00:15:47,550 They're not addressing the issues 337 00:15:47,550 --> 00:15:49,900 that these people have and face every day. 338 00:15:49,900 --> 00:15:53,580 And so I built an informal tower, a slum tower, 339 00:15:53,580 --> 00:15:57,820 in the middle of the garden of this military base. 340 00:15:57,820 --> 00:15:58,970 I made my own brick. 341 00:15:58,970 --> 00:16:00,750 You can see the donkey here. 342 00:16:00,750 --> 00:16:03,650 And it says "hope" on it. 343 00:16:03,650 --> 00:16:06,720 And here you can see the tower at night with the Opera House 344 00:16:06,720 --> 00:16:08,220 just behind. 345 00:16:08,220 --> 00:16:12,140 And of course, this was very controversial. 346 00:16:12,140 --> 00:16:16,870 Because it was like, wow, like putting people-- 347 00:16:16,870 --> 00:16:17,760 you don't go there. 348 00:16:17,760 --> 00:16:20,530 So I'm going to bring there to you. 349 00:16:20,530 --> 00:16:25,950 And this was really like a year before the revolution, a year 350 00:16:25,950 --> 00:16:27,400 and a half before the revolution. 351 00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:33,920 So this work was really, really loaded and very much discussed 352 00:16:33,920 --> 00:16:36,850 later as a kind of movement in the art world, 353 00:16:36,850 --> 00:16:41,380 as how artists were putting their-- saying, you know, 354 00:16:41,380 --> 00:16:43,520 hello, alert, alert, beep, beep. 355 00:16:43,520 --> 00:16:48,520 There's something happening here that you need to look at. 356 00:16:48,520 --> 00:16:50,380 So this was the kind of landscape 357 00:16:50,380 --> 00:16:52,470 we were in when the revolution started 358 00:16:52,470 --> 00:16:54,820 in terms of the art scene. 359 00:16:54,820 --> 00:16:56,510 PROFESSOR: Yes, Ali. 360 00:16:56,510 --> 00:17:02,425 AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE] were you inspired by Bosch? 361 00:17:02,425 --> 00:17:04,550 LARA BALADI: That's what everybody always tells me. 362 00:17:04,550 --> 00:17:06,010 AUDIENCE: It looks so similar. 363 00:17:06,010 --> 00:17:06,670 LARA BALADI: Thank you very much. 364 00:17:06,670 --> 00:17:08,336 It's always a very beautiful compliment. 365 00:17:10,780 --> 00:17:13,190 I actually love painting. 366 00:17:13,190 --> 00:17:13,940 I'm not a painter. 367 00:17:13,940 --> 00:17:16,310 And I wish I could be. 368 00:17:16,310 --> 00:17:19,240 But I'm sure I will be at some point. 369 00:17:19,240 --> 00:17:20,989 I've made other people paint for me. 370 00:17:20,989 --> 00:17:22,655 Because in Egypt, we have this tradition 371 00:17:22,655 --> 00:17:26,930 of making painted billboards for the cinema. 372 00:17:26,930 --> 00:17:30,350 I mean, in the good old days, they still existed like this. 373 00:17:30,350 --> 00:17:33,540 But yes, a lot of people compare my work 374 00:17:33,540 --> 00:17:37,822 to Bosch because of the kind of-- 375 00:17:37,822 --> 00:17:39,040 AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE]. 376 00:17:39,040 --> 00:17:41,730 LARA BALADI: The delight, the Paradise depiction. 377 00:17:41,730 --> 00:17:43,430 But actually, when you get closer to it, 378 00:17:43,430 --> 00:17:46,440 it shows all the disruptions that 379 00:17:46,440 --> 00:17:49,170 are happening in this depiction of Paradise 380 00:17:49,170 --> 00:17:53,280 and how, in fact, it's closer to Hell. 381 00:17:53,280 --> 00:17:58,790 AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE] I saw the similarity to the free expanse, 382 00:17:58,790 --> 00:18:02,786 but also the two lions separated into a very 383 00:18:02,786 --> 00:18:03,650 three-paneled piece. 384 00:18:03,650 --> 00:18:05,854 It also just seemed very similar, 385 00:18:05,854 --> 00:18:07,312 and I really like that [INAUDIBLE]. 386 00:18:09,572 --> 00:18:10,530 LARA BALADI: Thank you. 387 00:18:13,320 --> 00:18:18,040 PROFESSOR: OK, so now we'll enter in the discussion 388 00:18:18,040 --> 00:18:20,790 we're supposed to have today related 389 00:18:20,790 --> 00:18:22,560 to the assigned readings. 390 00:18:22,560 --> 00:18:24,510 And what I did, actually, is that I 391 00:18:24,510 --> 00:18:27,670 used the assigned readings to build my questions. 392 00:18:27,670 --> 00:18:31,000 And I'm going to use these questions as a pretext 393 00:18:31,000 --> 00:18:34,230 to kind of push in a little bit of theory, 394 00:18:34,230 --> 00:18:39,350 so it looks more like a course than just a casual discussion. 395 00:18:39,350 --> 00:18:41,670 And then after, we'll try to connect this 396 00:18:41,670 --> 00:18:45,380 to your own experience as someone 397 00:18:45,380 --> 00:18:47,590 experimented the revolution. 398 00:18:47,590 --> 00:18:50,220 So the first thing I would like to talk about 399 00:18:50,220 --> 00:18:53,350 is the rise of digital rebellions, citizen journalism 400 00:18:53,350 --> 00:18:57,370 and cyber left, which did not start with the Arab 401 00:18:57,370 --> 00:19:00,480 Spring and the Occupy Movement, but started 402 00:19:00,480 --> 00:19:05,420 12 years before with the creation of Indymedia, which 403 00:19:05,420 --> 00:19:08,860 is a global, federated network of independent media centers, 404 00:19:08,860 --> 00:19:13,400 radio stations, newspapers, video collectives and websites. 405 00:19:13,400 --> 00:19:16,980 And Indymedia was already only funded 406 00:19:16,980 --> 00:19:20,230 as an alternative and a direct challenge 407 00:19:20,230 --> 00:19:24,770 to corporate media like CBS and CNN. 408 00:19:24,770 --> 00:19:28,360 Most [INAUDIBLE] report on the counter demonstration 409 00:19:28,360 --> 00:19:31,590 and the police brutality that took place 410 00:19:31,590 --> 00:19:37,530 during the 1999 World Trade Organization meetings. 411 00:19:37,530 --> 00:19:40,790 And during its first week, the website 412 00:19:40,790 --> 00:19:45,497 received 1.5 million hits, outpacing CNN website 413 00:19:45,497 --> 00:19:46,330 for the same period. 414 00:19:46,330 --> 00:19:48,070 It was quite something. 415 00:19:48,070 --> 00:19:50,040 It was really big. 416 00:19:50,040 --> 00:19:51,780 And as the platform developed, it 417 00:19:51,780 --> 00:19:54,450 became more than an alternative media outlet, but also 418 00:19:54,450 --> 00:19:58,190 a think tank and activist laboratory and mobilizing tool 419 00:19:58,190 --> 00:19:59,990 for the anti-globalization movement. 420 00:19:59,990 --> 00:20:03,100 So for those who don't remember, the anti-globalization movement 421 00:20:03,100 --> 00:20:05,240 was against free trade agreements 422 00:20:05,240 --> 00:20:09,350 that would be at the disadvantage of the poorest. 423 00:20:09,350 --> 00:20:12,840 And so this platform was allowing people 424 00:20:12,840 --> 00:20:14,960 different movement, different struggle, 425 00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:19,650 to kind of merge together on the same platform-- 426 00:20:19,650 --> 00:20:25,640 movements as diverse as the Zapatista-Mayan peasant 427 00:20:25,640 --> 00:20:28,370 army from the poorest region of Mexico, 428 00:20:28,370 --> 00:20:30,570 the South central farmer movement in LA, 429 00:20:30,570 --> 00:20:33,260 a movement against Wal-Mart in Philadelphia, 430 00:20:33,260 --> 00:20:34,690 and movement against war in Iraq. 431 00:20:34,690 --> 00:20:37,050 So it was very diverse, but it was all converging 432 00:20:37,050 --> 00:20:40,050 on this platform here. 433 00:20:40,050 --> 00:20:41,780 And at that time, the activists were 434 00:20:41,780 --> 00:20:45,760 using chatrooms, the listservs, wiki pages where people could 435 00:20:45,760 --> 00:20:48,650 upload their stories, their report, their pictures, 436 00:20:48,650 --> 00:20:50,750 their videos. 437 00:20:50,750 --> 00:20:54,150 And so Indymedia was really one of the first websites 438 00:20:54,150 --> 00:20:58,370 where 100s of people were uploading content, generating 439 00:20:58,370 --> 00:20:59,630 content. 440 00:20:59,630 --> 00:21:02,600 And in this book, Digital Rebellion, 441 00:21:02,600 --> 00:21:05,740 Todd Wolfson claimed that Indymedia, with its slogan, 442 00:21:05,740 --> 00:21:09,830 "Don't Hate the Media, Be the Media," was kind of a precursor 443 00:21:09,830 --> 00:21:12,510 or catalyst for social media, but also 444 00:21:12,510 --> 00:21:16,380 the grassroots journalism-- citizen journalism. 445 00:21:16,380 --> 00:21:20,050 Lara, in your article, "When Seeing is Belonging" 446 00:21:20,050 --> 00:21:22,150 that is very good, and I recommend everybody 447 00:21:22,150 --> 00:21:27,470 to read it-- it's online-- you argue that September 11 also 448 00:21:27,470 --> 00:21:31,080 contributed to the rise of citizen journalism. 449 00:21:31,080 --> 00:21:33,322 You want to tell us a little more about this idea? 450 00:21:33,322 --> 00:21:34,030 LARA BALADI: Yes. 451 00:21:34,030 --> 00:21:41,700 I mean, I wrote this article because of my relationship 452 00:21:41,700 --> 00:21:45,880 to photography, and how this is how I began my career. 453 00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:49,360 And I found it was quite shocking to watch everybody-- 454 00:21:49,360 --> 00:21:51,530 can I go back to some of these images-- 455 00:21:51,530 --> 00:21:53,640 to watch everybody take photos in the square. 456 00:21:58,208 --> 00:22:00,760 Like this is quite an interesting image. 457 00:22:00,760 --> 00:22:04,260 So watching this kind of scene, and I 458 00:22:04,260 --> 00:22:07,760 was myself holding a camera that was actually broken. 459 00:22:07,760 --> 00:22:11,260 So it was making scratch-- it had scratch like that. 460 00:22:11,260 --> 00:22:13,860 I was, like, hmm, look at everybody's 461 00:22:13,860 --> 00:22:15,190 really documenting this. 462 00:22:15,190 --> 00:22:19,510 And I look back at my life, and thinking, OK, what do I do now? 463 00:22:19,510 --> 00:22:22,590 Because I felt a bit frozen. 464 00:22:22,590 --> 00:22:26,100 As I described, the way I work is I need time. 465 00:22:26,100 --> 00:22:28,500 And in a moment where you're in the middle of a-- 466 00:22:28,500 --> 00:22:32,500 when the dam breaks, the river goes really, really fast. 467 00:22:32,500 --> 00:22:35,880 So you better be your head out of the water 468 00:22:35,880 --> 00:22:38,890 and go with the flow. 469 00:22:38,890 --> 00:22:43,050 Which, in a stagnant regime, it's 470 00:22:43,050 --> 00:22:45,890 more like being in a lake that is very stagnant. 471 00:22:45,890 --> 00:22:49,320 And you have to keep going down, and kind of trying 472 00:22:49,320 --> 00:22:51,255 move [INAUDIBLE] so that something happens. 473 00:22:51,255 --> 00:22:53,010 So it's a very different situation. 474 00:22:53,010 --> 00:22:56,910 So that sense made me look back, and maybe look back 475 00:22:56,910 --> 00:22:59,080 at photography, and the use of media, 476 00:22:59,080 --> 00:23:02,230 and the use of image making, the history of image making. 477 00:23:02,230 --> 00:23:04,170 And I remember starting photography 478 00:23:04,170 --> 00:23:11,060 when I was coming out of school and the first Gulf War started. 479 00:23:11,060 --> 00:23:15,220 And that was a moment in media where the war in Iraq 480 00:23:15,220 --> 00:23:17,560 was shown live on CNN. 481 00:23:17,560 --> 00:23:19,307 And that was one of the only channels 482 00:23:19,307 --> 00:23:20,390 that was actually filming. 483 00:23:20,390 --> 00:23:21,765 But you could never see anything. 484 00:23:21,765 --> 00:23:22,760 It was always dark. 485 00:23:22,760 --> 00:23:24,390 And little lights would come out. 486 00:23:24,390 --> 00:23:26,080 And you didn't know what was going on. 487 00:23:26,080 --> 00:23:27,890 It was just like you could see explosions, 488 00:23:27,890 --> 00:23:31,090 or-- that was a really important moment, 489 00:23:31,090 --> 00:23:36,040 in terms of discussing and debating the role of media 490 00:23:36,040 --> 00:23:40,210 and watching war live on television. 491 00:23:40,210 --> 00:23:45,540 10 years later, there was 9/11. 492 00:23:45,540 --> 00:23:48,310 And I don't know how old you guys were, 493 00:23:48,310 --> 00:23:52,360 but it was a time when social media didn't exist. 494 00:23:52,360 --> 00:23:55,170 Most people didn't have mobile phones. 495 00:23:55,170 --> 00:23:56,820 And if they did have mobile phones, 496 00:23:56,820 --> 00:23:59,640 they didn't have cameras on their mobile phones. 497 00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:03,120 So what was much more the thing of the time 498 00:24:03,120 --> 00:24:05,280 was to have a digital camera in your bag. 499 00:24:05,280 --> 00:24:07,230 And it was usually very low resolution. 500 00:24:07,230 --> 00:24:09,180 But it was nevertheless digital. 501 00:24:09,180 --> 00:24:14,200 And that was the early days of creating media, 502 00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:15,590 in digital form. 503 00:24:15,590 --> 00:24:18,030 So suddenly, 10 years later, here I 504 00:24:18,030 --> 00:24:19,605 am in the middle of this revolution, 505 00:24:19,605 --> 00:24:23,710 and watching everybody upload material, 506 00:24:23,710 --> 00:24:25,140 I mean, as fast as I'm talking. 507 00:24:25,140 --> 00:24:27,780 There's already 1,000 videos that would have been uploaded. 508 00:24:27,780 --> 00:24:33,870 So this whole-- over 20 years, but every decade, 509 00:24:33,870 --> 00:24:37,250 this new platform that image making reaches 510 00:24:37,250 --> 00:24:39,020 was, for me, really, really fascinating. 511 00:24:39,020 --> 00:24:41,860 And yes, one of the things that came out 512 00:24:41,860 --> 00:24:43,890 of all the discourses and the debates 513 00:24:43,890 --> 00:24:47,920 around photography and image making and media in general 514 00:24:47,920 --> 00:24:53,250 after 9/11 was that, for the first time in years, 515 00:24:53,250 --> 00:24:56,320 the power had changed hands-- where 516 00:24:56,320 --> 00:25:00,220 the citizen-- the ones who were underneath, or very close, 517 00:25:00,220 --> 00:25:07,230 or watching from buildings and over windows-- 518 00:25:07,230 --> 00:25:10,190 were able to document what was happening. 519 00:25:10,190 --> 00:25:12,900 The media wasn't there. [INAUDIBLE] citizens. 520 00:25:12,900 --> 00:25:15,630 And that was a really, really big moment in history, 521 00:25:15,630 --> 00:25:20,300 in terms of suddenly the citizen had power that the media didn't 522 00:25:20,300 --> 00:25:21,410 have anymore. 523 00:25:21,410 --> 00:25:25,260 So that hold on the power and in whose hand is always 524 00:25:25,260 --> 00:25:27,680 at the core, I think, at the heart of those debates, 525 00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:30,336 especially moments like that. 526 00:25:30,336 --> 00:25:31,710 PROFESSOR: So it was interesting, 527 00:25:31,710 --> 00:25:35,150 and this is where I speak about citizen journalism, 528 00:25:35,150 --> 00:25:39,420 and how and why that moment in Tahrir 529 00:25:39,420 --> 00:25:40,670 was really interesting for me. 530 00:25:40,670 --> 00:25:44,292 Because I had seen this throughout my career 531 00:25:44,292 --> 00:25:46,250 as a photographer and artist, and watched that. 532 00:25:46,250 --> 00:25:49,860 And I was really fascinated with it. 533 00:25:49,860 --> 00:25:54,790 Let's talk about the role of media in mobilizing people. 534 00:25:54,790 --> 00:25:56,620 So Facebook and Twitter are often 535 00:25:56,620 --> 00:26:01,550 depicted as the main instruments of the Arab Revolution, 536 00:26:01,550 --> 00:26:05,670 to the point that the revolution has been called a social media 537 00:26:05,670 --> 00:26:09,640 revolution, a Facebook revolution, Twitter revolution. 538 00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:12,640 And apparently, one of the main elements 539 00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:16,360 that contributed to this [INAUDIBLE] 540 00:26:16,360 --> 00:26:18,870 uniting the young Egyptians that were not, as you said, 541 00:26:18,870 --> 00:26:22,680 necessarily into politics at that time, 542 00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:25,900 was this Facebook page that we spoke about earlier. 543 00:26:25,900 --> 00:26:27,350 We are all Khaled Saeed. 544 00:26:27,350 --> 00:26:29,450 I know I don't pronounce it well, but I try. 545 00:26:29,450 --> 00:26:30,516 LARA BALADI: [INAUDIBLE]. 546 00:26:30,516 --> 00:26:32,950 PROFESSOR: I'm sorry about that. 547 00:26:32,950 --> 00:26:35,182 And apparently, this page was protesting 548 00:26:35,182 --> 00:26:37,515 against the death of this young blogger after his arrest 549 00:26:37,515 --> 00:26:38,098 by the police. 550 00:26:38,098 --> 00:26:40,460 And it said, even showing pictures 551 00:26:40,460 --> 00:26:43,580 of his disfigured corpse, I think, at the beginning, 552 00:26:43,580 --> 00:26:45,600 I guess, maybe. 553 00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:48,450 And according to the author of one 554 00:26:48,450 --> 00:26:51,410 of the texts that we had to read today, Gerbaudo, 555 00:26:51,410 --> 00:26:54,706 this page was successful because it individualized 556 00:26:54,706 --> 00:26:55,580 Facebook interaction. 557 00:26:58,670 --> 00:27:02,230 I think he was talking as if he was Khaled Saeed, actually, 558 00:27:02,230 --> 00:27:03,756 at the beginning. 559 00:27:03,756 --> 00:27:06,370 And at some point during the revolution, 560 00:27:06,370 --> 00:27:10,620 apparently it became kind of a place to collect evidences 561 00:27:10,620 --> 00:27:14,420 against the regime and against the police brutality, 562 00:27:14,420 --> 00:27:18,760 and a sort of megaphone that was relaying information 563 00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:22,060 about events that were coming. 564 00:27:22,060 --> 00:27:25,850 And apparently, it also served to build up the confidence 565 00:27:25,850 --> 00:27:26,750 about the movement. 566 00:27:26,750 --> 00:27:30,580 So my question was, when did you see 567 00:27:30,580 --> 00:27:32,550 this page for the first time? 568 00:27:32,550 --> 00:27:34,590 And how did it affect your motivation 569 00:27:34,590 --> 00:27:36,300 to kind of get involved? 570 00:27:36,300 --> 00:27:43,580 And do you believe that, when you saw that, 571 00:27:43,580 --> 00:27:46,870 did you believe that it was an important, 572 00:27:46,870 --> 00:27:50,440 a positional movement, that was kind of rising in Egypt? 573 00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:53,876 Was it the proof that something was going on? 574 00:27:53,876 --> 00:27:55,500 LARA BALADI: So that's a nice question, 575 00:27:55,500 --> 00:27:59,590 because I was not on Facebook when the revolution started. 576 00:27:59,590 --> 00:28:02,719 So I had no idea even, like, why people even went on Facebook. 577 00:28:02,719 --> 00:28:04,760 It was just I could hear my friend talk about it. 578 00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:06,233 I was just horrified. 579 00:28:06,233 --> 00:28:08,520 I was like, [INAUDIBLE] there. 580 00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:10,160 So no, I was not on Facebook. 581 00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:12,080 I did not have a Twitter account. 582 00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:13,820 I didn't even know Twitter existed. 583 00:28:13,820 --> 00:28:18,110 I knew about Facebook, but-- and I didn't have a television I 584 00:28:18,110 --> 00:28:18,930 still don't. 585 00:28:18,930 --> 00:28:25,470 So my relationship with internet was a good relationship, 586 00:28:25,470 --> 00:28:27,230 but it wasn't like a very-- I wasn't 587 00:28:27,230 --> 00:28:31,630 like a freak surfer on the net. 588 00:28:31,630 --> 00:28:34,630 It wasn't like I was spending hours looking for things, 589 00:28:34,630 --> 00:28:37,840 or using it in ways that I use it now. 590 00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:43,170 So I wasn't aware of that page. 591 00:28:43,170 --> 00:28:45,670 I remember when Khaled Saeed was killed, 592 00:28:45,670 --> 00:28:47,740 and I felt something is about to happen. 593 00:28:47,740 --> 00:28:50,830 And this was maybe 18 months before the revolution started. 594 00:28:50,830 --> 00:28:52,370 It was in June, 2010. 595 00:28:52,370 --> 00:28:56,300 The revolution started in January, 2011. 596 00:28:56,300 --> 00:29:00,800 What I can say-- I mean, of course I saw the page later. 597 00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:03,150 And I think it had an extraordinary impact. 598 00:29:03,150 --> 00:29:05,750 But I think the interesting story here, 599 00:29:05,750 --> 00:29:13,190 which-- to go back to some of the images-- 600 00:29:13,190 --> 00:29:18,330 the interesting story here is how this Facebook page began. 601 00:29:18,330 --> 00:29:20,650 Because we're not talking about making a Facebook 602 00:29:20,650 --> 00:29:24,560 page and-- this is [INAUDIBLE]. 603 00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:28,080 So we're not talking about making a Facebook page now, 604 00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:31,280 or in a normal kind of situation, 605 00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:34,230 or in a kind of relatively normal situation. 606 00:29:34,230 --> 00:29:37,280 I don't know what the normal situation would be. 607 00:29:37,280 --> 00:29:42,280 We're talking about a Facebook page under Mubarak regime. 608 00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:43,970 And at the end of the Mubarak regime, 609 00:29:43,970 --> 00:29:45,890 Amn ad-Dawla, the State Security, 610 00:29:45,890 --> 00:29:47,830 was incredibly powerful-- probably 611 00:29:47,830 --> 00:29:50,720 one of the most powerful securities 612 00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:52,860 for sure in the region, and probably 613 00:29:52,860 --> 00:29:54,700 across many other countries in the world. 614 00:29:54,700 --> 00:29:59,980 So you're talking about a very corrupted time in history, 615 00:29:59,980 --> 00:30:03,060 and a very, very intense time, where 616 00:30:03,060 --> 00:30:05,926 there is no way anybody could say who they were or say 617 00:30:05,926 --> 00:30:07,550 anything about the regime, because they 618 00:30:07,550 --> 00:30:11,090 would be immediately arrested-- let alone on Facebook, which 619 00:30:11,090 --> 00:30:13,680 is a public space, as you know. 620 00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:21,310 So the story goes that there was the administrator 621 00:30:21,310 --> 00:30:26,120 of Google Egypt, who was in Dubai for a conference, who's 622 00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:29,230 a young guy who's now in LA, Wael Ghonim. 623 00:30:29,230 --> 00:30:35,700 And one of the activists of one of the very small but very new 624 00:30:35,700 --> 00:30:38,520 and probably, obviously, very important-- 625 00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:42,280 that became very important-- political opposition group that 626 00:30:42,280 --> 00:30:46,870 formed itself and called itself Sixth of April-- 627 00:30:46,870 --> 00:30:49,550 formed itself after the events that 628 00:30:49,550 --> 00:30:53,420 took place in 2010 of all the workers in the Delta 629 00:30:53,420 --> 00:30:55,590 in the north of Egypt that rebelled 630 00:30:55,590 --> 00:30:58,210 against the conditions of how they were working 631 00:30:58,210 --> 00:31:00,040 and how much they were paid and so on. 632 00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:01,623 And a lot of these people were killed. 633 00:31:01,623 --> 00:31:03,270 A lot of them were arrested. 634 00:31:03,270 --> 00:31:08,130 It was pretty much-- it was one of the very important moments 635 00:31:08,130 --> 00:31:12,780 pre-revolution that marked this real disruption 636 00:31:12,780 --> 00:31:15,620 between the corrupted regime and the people. 637 00:31:15,620 --> 00:31:19,270 And so after that day, that group formed itself. 638 00:31:19,270 --> 00:31:20,910 So one of the people from that group 639 00:31:20,910 --> 00:31:25,240 was in that same conference, and sat next to Wael Ghonim, 640 00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:26,700 but didn't tell him who he was. 641 00:31:26,700 --> 00:31:30,060 And Wael Ghonim didn't tell him who he was. 642 00:31:30,060 --> 00:31:33,810 They were just on internet, as people do it in internet cafe, 643 00:31:33,810 --> 00:31:35,721 or when they have-- like you guys were 644 00:31:35,721 --> 00:31:36,970 at the beginning of the class. 645 00:31:36,970 --> 00:31:39,630 They sort of sit together, google stuff, 646 00:31:39,630 --> 00:31:41,610 and sometimes talk. 647 00:31:41,610 --> 00:31:45,510 And at one point, one of them said, how can we get 648 00:31:45,510 --> 00:31:48,510 people to actually participate? 649 00:31:48,510 --> 00:31:50,870 How do we collect people? 650 00:31:50,870 --> 00:31:52,960 How do we bring people's attention? 651 00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:54,220 What would we do? 652 00:31:54,220 --> 00:31:57,570 And so Wael told him, you know, let's make this Facebook page. 653 00:31:57,570 --> 00:31:59,880 And you can do this, and you can do that. 654 00:31:59,880 --> 00:32:02,877 And that's the way that you kind of attract people's attention. 655 00:32:02,877 --> 00:32:04,960 So I don't know what was the conversation exactly. 656 00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:05,770 I wish I was there. 657 00:32:05,770 --> 00:32:06,280 I wasn't. 658 00:32:06,280 --> 00:32:10,650 But from that conversation, and not knowing each other, 659 00:32:10,650 --> 00:32:13,570 and still not knowing each other afterwards, 660 00:32:13,570 --> 00:32:17,500 that's how they created this Facebook page. 661 00:32:17,500 --> 00:32:21,050 And people started to join and like, and like, and like. 662 00:32:21,050 --> 00:32:22,800 And before we knew it, there was thousands 663 00:32:22,800 --> 00:32:24,290 of people on the page. 664 00:32:24,290 --> 00:32:28,270 And of course, with the events in Tunis 665 00:32:28,270 --> 00:32:29,860 followed by the events that started 666 00:32:29,860 --> 00:32:34,340 to escalate in Cairo and Egypt, the Facebook page 667 00:32:34,340 --> 00:32:40,020 became more and more and more kind of catalyzer or something 668 00:32:40,020 --> 00:32:42,130 that was about to happen. 669 00:32:42,130 --> 00:32:45,080 So I think that's the real role of that page. 670 00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:47,120 Now, that page was essentially addressed 671 00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:52,160 to people who are in the age range of age of Khaled-- 672 00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:56,010 so late '20s. 673 00:32:56,010 --> 00:32:58,410 I don't know what's the percentage in America, 674 00:32:58,410 --> 00:33:05,650 but in Egypt there is 65% of the population is below 30 years 675 00:33:05,650 --> 00:33:07,080 old. 676 00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:07,950 That's huge. 677 00:33:07,950 --> 00:33:09,760 We're a very young country. 678 00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:12,030 There's lots of babies everyday that are born. 679 00:33:12,030 --> 00:33:14,840 So it's like when you're talking to somebody who's 680 00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:19,710 27 being killed-- imagine the impact on the similar kind 681 00:33:19,710 --> 00:33:22,980 of people in the population. 682 00:33:22,980 --> 00:33:32,010 So that kind of merging of moments, events, the fact 683 00:33:32,010 --> 00:33:34,850 that also it's a generation that, as you know better than I 684 00:33:34,850 --> 00:33:37,130 do, lives on the internet and knows 685 00:33:37,130 --> 00:33:41,810 internet since they were born-- it was a very natural thing. 686 00:33:41,810 --> 00:33:43,490 So just sort of like all these elements 687 00:33:43,490 --> 00:33:46,080 kind of contributed for something to happen. 688 00:33:50,350 --> 00:33:54,370 PROFESSOR: So it reaches more the youth. 689 00:33:54,370 --> 00:33:56,750 The authors that we had to read for today, 690 00:33:56,750 --> 00:34:03,380 they seem a bit skeptical about if the social media were really 691 00:34:03,380 --> 00:34:06,390 motivating people, mobilizing people. 692 00:34:06,390 --> 00:34:10,150 There's no doubt that they did, but what was important of it 693 00:34:10,150 --> 00:34:14,980 compared to ground-level organization? 694 00:34:14,980 --> 00:34:17,090 And so in the tweets on the street, 695 00:34:17,090 --> 00:34:22,100 Gerbaudo mentioned that it took a few months 696 00:34:22,100 --> 00:34:27,120 before actually the Facebook RSVP translated 697 00:34:27,120 --> 00:34:30,670 into massive physical attendance in public spaces. 698 00:34:30,670 --> 00:34:34,934 And also, the DFK [INAUDIBLE] from Tunisia. 699 00:34:34,934 --> 00:34:37,350 And he mentioned also that the Occupy Wall Street Movement 700 00:34:37,350 --> 00:34:40,469 was not magically born out of a Twitter hashtag, 701 00:34:40,469 --> 00:34:42,770 but gained importance after a slow process 702 00:34:42,770 --> 00:34:44,280 of ground-level organization. 703 00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:46,964 So I know it's a tough question, but do you 704 00:34:46,964 --> 00:34:48,630 think that the Egyptian revolution would 705 00:34:48,630 --> 00:34:52,650 have happened without the digital technology, 706 00:34:52,650 --> 00:34:54,420 without social media? 707 00:34:54,420 --> 00:34:59,060 And or maybe in a more easy way to answer, 708 00:34:59,060 --> 00:35:01,380 how important was the role of Facebook 709 00:35:01,380 --> 00:35:05,670 in recruiting part spent and mobilizing people, bringing 710 00:35:05,670 --> 00:35:07,800 them to Tahrir Square? 711 00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:10,210 LARA BALADI: I mean, when it happened-- and this 712 00:35:10,210 --> 00:35:13,110 is why this image actually is very important, 713 00:35:13,110 --> 00:35:15,460 because suddenly there's this young woman. 714 00:35:15,460 --> 00:35:17,700 And she's in front of the police. 715 00:35:17,700 --> 00:35:20,520 To see this in an Arab country was in itself 716 00:35:20,520 --> 00:35:22,165 an image that shocked people. 717 00:35:22,165 --> 00:35:24,760 Wow, all these women were at the front line of the revolution. 718 00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:26,760 I mean, they weren't just standing at the back. 719 00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:28,480 We were actually at the front. 720 00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:33,910 And so to see that, and to see that generation kind of come 721 00:35:33,910 --> 00:35:36,550 out and not want a revolution. 722 00:35:36,550 --> 00:35:38,500 They didn't come out asking for a revolution. 723 00:35:38,500 --> 00:35:42,410 They actually came out asking for dignity. 724 00:35:42,410 --> 00:35:47,510 So please stop the police from abusing us, 725 00:35:47,510 --> 00:35:49,300 because I don't want to get into details, 726 00:35:49,300 --> 00:35:52,130 but most people have been abused by the police, 727 00:35:52,130 --> 00:35:54,090 and sometimes sexually abused by the police. 728 00:35:54,090 --> 00:35:56,370 So there's a huge amount of torture 729 00:35:56,370 --> 00:35:59,690 that came out-- a revelation about how many instruments 730 00:35:59,690 --> 00:36:02,490 were hidden into these caves of all these police stations. 731 00:36:07,420 --> 00:36:14,700 The context was that you have to imagine the Khaled Saeed 732 00:36:14,700 --> 00:36:18,550 case leading to the Facebook page, 733 00:36:18,550 --> 00:36:21,670 leading to bringing all this generation-- essentially 734 00:36:21,670 --> 00:36:26,710 that generation-- to the street on the 25 of January. 735 00:36:26,710 --> 00:36:29,370 That was a very important moment. 736 00:36:29,370 --> 00:36:31,710 And yes, it came out of universities. 737 00:36:31,710 --> 00:36:35,130 It came out of a new generation that was kind of like, 738 00:36:35,130 --> 00:36:38,320 why are these older people not doing anything? 739 00:36:38,320 --> 00:36:39,880 What's wrong with them? 740 00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:46,130 And very quickly, when the whole thing turned-- very quickly 741 00:36:46,130 --> 00:36:47,130 became violence. 742 00:36:47,130 --> 00:36:48,790 So from the first night, the police 743 00:36:48,790 --> 00:36:50,520 attacked all these demonstrators, 744 00:36:50,520 --> 00:36:52,360 even though they were much less in number. 745 00:36:52,360 --> 00:36:55,720 But they waited, as they do, because they're cowards. 746 00:36:55,720 --> 00:36:57,520 They waited until everybody went home. 747 00:36:57,520 --> 00:36:58,640 And then they attacked when there 748 00:36:58,640 --> 00:36:59,889 was less people in the street. 749 00:36:59,889 --> 00:37:01,680 So that happens, usually, at midnight. 750 00:37:01,680 --> 00:37:04,620 So then this two days that followed, 751 00:37:04,620 --> 00:37:08,040 there is more violence that takes place in the streets. 752 00:37:08,040 --> 00:37:10,706 A few people get killed-- the first martyrs 753 00:37:10,706 --> 00:37:11,455 of the revolution. 754 00:37:11,455 --> 00:37:16,370 And that sort of stated a kind of enough. 755 00:37:16,370 --> 00:37:17,530 Now that's it. 756 00:37:17,530 --> 00:37:19,550 Those kids went to the streets. 757 00:37:19,550 --> 00:37:23,270 We adults are actually cowards for not 758 00:37:23,270 --> 00:37:24,600 having done what they're doing. 759 00:37:24,600 --> 00:37:26,250 We've been waiting for 13 years to even 760 00:37:26,250 --> 00:37:28,140 have the guts to do that. 761 00:37:28,140 --> 00:37:29,720 And they kill people. 762 00:37:29,720 --> 00:37:31,120 And why? 763 00:37:31,120 --> 00:37:32,020 And it's enough. 764 00:37:32,020 --> 00:37:36,280 And so on that Friday, which was called the Day of Anger, 765 00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:38,510 the whole population went out. 766 00:37:38,510 --> 00:37:39,927 Everybody went out. 767 00:37:39,927 --> 00:37:41,760 Every single per-- and we're talking the day 768 00:37:41,760 --> 00:37:42,960 where there's no more internet. 769 00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:44,084 There's no more telephones. 770 00:37:44,084 --> 00:37:45,180 There's no more anything. 771 00:37:45,180 --> 00:37:47,960 So everybody went out. 772 00:37:47,960 --> 00:37:52,207 So yes, there was a trigger that was associated to Facebook. 773 00:37:52,207 --> 00:37:54,040 And people called it the Facebook revolution 774 00:37:54,040 --> 00:37:56,290 because there was something really beautiful about it. 775 00:37:56,290 --> 00:37:58,180 There was people who were young, people 776 00:37:58,180 --> 00:38:00,720 who were courageous, people who died. 777 00:38:00,720 --> 00:38:03,160 There was a real desire for change. 778 00:38:03,160 --> 00:38:05,260 There was something very innocent, and very, 779 00:38:05,260 --> 00:38:11,030 very really very hopeful. 780 00:38:11,030 --> 00:38:13,830 And the shift happened very quickly 781 00:38:13,830 --> 00:38:19,260 when that whole population followed, but very quickly 782 00:38:19,260 --> 00:38:22,980 also turned into who's going to take 783 00:38:22,980 --> 00:38:24,900 advantage of what's happening? 784 00:38:24,900 --> 00:38:28,220 So this kind of unfolds as the revolution unfolds. 785 00:38:28,220 --> 00:38:33,340 But the role of the social media at the very beginning 786 00:38:33,340 --> 00:38:35,810 is really a kind of trigger and a sign 787 00:38:35,810 --> 00:38:39,390 that this need for change comes from this generation that 788 00:38:39,390 --> 00:38:41,270 wants to have a future. 789 00:38:41,270 --> 00:38:44,070 But then, everybody else who is politicized 790 00:38:44,070 --> 00:38:46,570 and everybody else who is part of the society 791 00:38:46,570 --> 00:38:51,650 also has different interest in things changing or not. 792 00:38:51,650 --> 00:38:53,640 And so then a lot of other things happened. 793 00:38:53,640 --> 00:38:56,740 And then the media, as we know, also 794 00:38:56,740 --> 00:38:59,790 take on another role as everything changes 795 00:38:59,790 --> 00:39:03,630 every minute, and then every day, every week, and so on, 796 00:39:03,630 --> 00:39:05,320 and so forth. 797 00:39:05,320 --> 00:39:07,440 So yes, it's a very important role. 798 00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:11,240 But it doesn't define the society 799 00:39:11,240 --> 00:39:15,450 because it's the trigger of something at the beginning. 800 00:39:15,450 --> 00:39:22,350 And also it doesn't really-- what this is not addressed also 801 00:39:22,350 --> 00:39:25,210 in that image-- kind of utopic image-- of watching 802 00:39:25,210 --> 00:39:28,660 all these young people working towards something they're 803 00:39:28,660 --> 00:39:33,310 dreaming of-- is that most of the population, especially 804 00:39:33,310 --> 00:39:35,237 people who are in the countryside, which 805 00:39:35,237 --> 00:39:37,070 has been very ignored during the revolution, 806 00:39:37,070 --> 00:39:39,630 especially by the foreign media-- everybody 807 00:39:39,630 --> 00:39:41,450 was focusing on Tahrir. 808 00:39:41,450 --> 00:39:43,360 Tahrir is just a little area in Cairo. 809 00:39:43,360 --> 00:39:47,440 It's actually not even that big. 810 00:39:47,440 --> 00:39:49,360 And yet there's Egypt. 811 00:39:49,360 --> 00:39:53,255 And Egypt is essentially countryside and people 812 00:39:53,255 --> 00:39:57,370 who are peasants, or people who are workers in the delta. 813 00:39:57,370 --> 00:40:00,410 So all of these people are not necessarily connected 814 00:40:00,410 --> 00:40:01,370 to internet. 815 00:40:01,370 --> 00:40:02,870 They don't have a Facebook page. 816 00:40:02,870 --> 00:40:06,560 So two million people signed up on Facebook in the first 10, 817 00:40:06,560 --> 00:40:10,160 20 days of when the internet came back. 818 00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:11,190 So I'm one of them. 819 00:40:15,230 --> 00:40:17,690 So then you have also this whole relationship 820 00:40:17,690 --> 00:40:21,390 of how people have focused on that first moment. 821 00:40:21,390 --> 00:40:24,670 And it kind of colored what happened after. 822 00:40:24,670 --> 00:40:26,600 But no, it's much more complex than this. 823 00:40:26,600 --> 00:40:32,540 And the economics of the country is at the core of the movement. 824 00:40:32,540 --> 00:40:35,970 The different religions are at core in the movement. 825 00:40:35,970 --> 00:40:40,145 There's a lot of other levels that we can get into. 826 00:40:40,145 --> 00:40:41,502 But it's not the subject today. 827 00:40:41,502 --> 00:40:44,270 PROFESSOR: Yeah, considering the low level 828 00:40:44,270 --> 00:40:46,060 of internet connection in Egypt-- 829 00:40:46,060 --> 00:40:49,970 there was 25% of the population connected in 2011, according 830 00:40:49,970 --> 00:40:53,460 to the statistic that I saw-- and the low alphabetization 831 00:40:53,460 --> 00:40:58,043 rate-- 65% compared to 99% in the States. 832 00:40:58,043 --> 00:40:59,043 And the fact that only-- 833 00:40:59,043 --> 00:41:00,010 LARA BALADI: So you found that number? 834 00:41:00,010 --> 00:41:00,590 PROFESSOR: Yeah, but-- 835 00:41:00,590 --> 00:41:01,530 LARA BALADI: That's huge. 836 00:41:01,530 --> 00:41:02,155 That's amazing. 837 00:41:02,155 --> 00:41:04,980 PROFESSOR: Well, alphabetization is something subjective. 838 00:41:04,980 --> 00:41:08,580 So I'm pretty sure it's not 99% that read very well. 839 00:41:08,580 --> 00:41:11,540 LARA BALADI: 99 is not bad. 840 00:41:11,540 --> 00:41:17,030 PROFESSOR: Yeah, I mean, so it was the one beside the 65%. 841 00:41:17,030 --> 00:41:21,010 And only 4% of adults were on Facebook before the revolution, 842 00:41:21,010 --> 00:41:24,120 so it's not much. 843 00:41:24,120 --> 00:41:27,130 The question is, how did the techno-savvy youth 844 00:41:27,130 --> 00:41:30,500 manage to bridge the digital gap, the digital divide, 845 00:41:30,500 --> 00:41:31,990 during the Arab Spring? 846 00:41:31,990 --> 00:41:36,730 And were they employing other techniques, other means, 847 00:41:36,730 --> 00:41:39,590 to kind of get these people who were not 848 00:41:39,590 --> 00:41:42,200 connected on the street? 849 00:41:42,200 --> 00:41:44,200 LARA BALADI: I think that's part of the problem, 850 00:41:44,200 --> 00:41:48,690 is that-- I mean, I wouldn't associate 851 00:41:48,690 --> 00:41:51,970 that problem to necessarily-- people 852 00:41:51,970 --> 00:41:53,620 were using the tools they have. 853 00:41:53,620 --> 00:42:00,276 But very quickly, it appeared that you have community. 854 00:42:00,276 --> 00:42:02,236 It's a little bit like being in a university. 855 00:42:02,236 --> 00:42:03,610 So you have your group of people. 856 00:42:03,610 --> 00:42:04,770 You have your community. 857 00:42:04,770 --> 00:42:07,120 You have those do sports with. 858 00:42:07,120 --> 00:42:09,590 You have those you have the same classes with, 859 00:42:09,590 --> 00:42:11,290 so on, and so forth. 860 00:42:11,290 --> 00:42:13,340 And in a way, they start talking to each other. 861 00:42:13,340 --> 00:42:16,220 But they're not really talking to everybody else. 862 00:42:16,220 --> 00:42:18,370 And so suddenly, when you start-- anyway, 863 00:42:18,370 --> 00:42:21,780 I got on Twitter very early on-- as soon 864 00:42:21,780 --> 00:42:22,864 as the internet came back. 865 00:42:22,864 --> 00:42:24,321 Because I didn't have a television. 866 00:42:24,321 --> 00:42:26,070 I had to know what the hell's going on. 867 00:42:26,070 --> 00:42:27,594 So I tried to figure it out. 868 00:42:27,594 --> 00:42:29,760 I didn't really like Facebook, but I was, like, wow, 869 00:42:29,760 --> 00:42:30,718 Twitter is pretty cool. 870 00:42:30,718 --> 00:42:32,570 So I really got it very quickly. 871 00:42:32,570 --> 00:42:35,670 And I got really agitated on Twitter very quickly. 872 00:42:35,670 --> 00:42:37,401 And so I'm, like, OK, who's important? 873 00:42:37,401 --> 00:42:38,150 Who's saying what? 874 00:42:38,150 --> 00:42:40,191 So you start following people, and understanding, 875 00:42:40,191 --> 00:42:42,691 and kind of mapping who's the activists here, 876 00:42:42,691 --> 00:42:44,940 and who's interesting, and who's saying stupid things, 877 00:42:44,940 --> 00:42:47,190 and who's saying interesting things, and who's calling 878 00:42:47,190 --> 00:42:48,422 for violence, and who's not. 879 00:42:48,422 --> 00:42:49,630 So it's actually quite funny. 880 00:42:49,630 --> 00:42:51,629 Because it's like this whole thing is unfolding. 881 00:42:51,629 --> 00:42:53,910 And you have all these characters without face 882 00:42:53,910 --> 00:42:57,110 that you discover. 883 00:42:57,110 --> 00:43:02,010 And you become part of that whole film, in a way. 884 00:43:02,010 --> 00:43:08,190 And the interesting thing was that some of those characters 885 00:43:08,190 --> 00:43:13,070 or activists or participants were really 886 00:43:13,070 --> 00:43:20,000 focusing on this notion of organization 887 00:43:20,000 --> 00:43:27,480 or this notion of criticizing or freely talking. 888 00:43:27,480 --> 00:43:29,400 Because now we could talk. 889 00:43:29,400 --> 00:43:33,420 But there was no sense of-- I never felt 890 00:43:33,420 --> 00:43:34,910 that they were talking to me. 891 00:43:34,910 --> 00:43:37,390 They were always kind of talking to one another, 892 00:43:37,390 --> 00:43:39,230 like knowing who was on Twitter. 893 00:43:39,230 --> 00:43:41,790 And they were kind of talking to each other. 894 00:43:41,790 --> 00:43:47,490 And then the media, after the 18 days that toppled Mubarak, 895 00:43:47,490 --> 00:43:50,350 the international media was much more present 896 00:43:50,350 --> 00:43:52,646 and able to document the revolution. 897 00:43:52,646 --> 00:43:54,270 And of course, the first thing they did 898 00:43:54,270 --> 00:43:57,911 is they transformed people into heroes and icons 899 00:43:57,911 --> 00:43:58,660 of the revolution. 900 00:43:58,660 --> 00:44:00,560 And yes, some of them were. 901 00:44:00,560 --> 00:44:03,340 Some of those people were amazing. 902 00:44:03,340 --> 00:44:04,970 And they're still amazing. 903 00:44:04,970 --> 00:44:10,980 But what it did is that it kind of intensified 904 00:44:10,980 --> 00:44:14,870 the sort of ego of some of these people. 905 00:44:14,870 --> 00:44:18,990 And it intensified their importance in a movement, 906 00:44:18,990 --> 00:44:23,250 and kind of blurred the actual reasons why this was happening, 907 00:44:23,250 --> 00:44:25,080 and kind of almost disconnected them 908 00:44:25,080 --> 00:44:27,790 from the rest of the society. 909 00:44:27,790 --> 00:44:31,680 And one of the big criticisms of that generation, 910 00:44:31,680 --> 00:44:35,900 whether it was in Alex, in Suez, or in Cairo-- doesn't matter-- 911 00:44:35,900 --> 00:44:40,090 was that nobody was addressing the countryside. 912 00:44:40,090 --> 00:44:43,290 Nobody was addressing the [INAUDIBLE] around Cairo. 913 00:44:43,290 --> 00:44:46,650 Nobody was addressing the actual role of all these people 914 00:44:46,650 --> 00:44:48,730 outside of Tahrir. 915 00:44:48,730 --> 00:44:50,800 Go down the street, and go to another area. 916 00:44:50,800 --> 00:44:51,960 And see what's going on. 917 00:44:51,960 --> 00:44:54,540 So this became really problematic, 918 00:44:54,540 --> 00:45:00,420 because the way the focus became so about the square 919 00:45:00,420 --> 00:45:05,070 and so much about some of these important activists, 920 00:45:05,070 --> 00:45:07,480 it also created a kind of disconnection 921 00:45:07,480 --> 00:45:09,520 with the rest of the communities. 922 00:45:09,520 --> 00:45:12,960 And as young people are-- they're very passionate 923 00:45:12,960 --> 00:45:17,040 and they're very radical, and sometimes a little bit blinded 924 00:45:17,040 --> 00:45:22,540 by their passion-- so they tend to kind of obscure themselves 925 00:45:22,540 --> 00:45:25,800 from the possibilities that-- to be strong, 926 00:45:25,800 --> 00:45:28,040 they need to have people on their side. 927 00:45:28,040 --> 00:45:29,540 And I think one of the big mistakes 928 00:45:29,540 --> 00:45:32,070 was that they were so, so radical 929 00:45:32,070 --> 00:45:36,550 and believed so much and in a certain way for democracy 930 00:45:36,550 --> 00:45:39,140 to be implemented that anybody who 931 00:45:39,140 --> 00:45:43,710 didn't believe the same thing, they kind of dismissed them. 932 00:45:43,710 --> 00:45:45,190 What they forgot to do is that they 933 00:45:45,190 --> 00:45:47,530 didn't realize that who they were dismissing 934 00:45:47,530 --> 00:45:50,340 were actually the majority of people in Egypt. 935 00:45:50,340 --> 00:45:52,530 And so to lose the majority of people in Egypt 936 00:45:52,530 --> 00:45:55,440 is also what got us to where we are today. 937 00:45:55,440 --> 00:46:02,310 And that majority said, enough of this bullshit or mess 938 00:46:02,310 --> 00:46:03,930 in the street that's happening. 939 00:46:03,930 --> 00:46:08,730 And let's go back with at least having our military regime 940 00:46:08,730 --> 00:46:11,020 taking care of security. 941 00:46:11,020 --> 00:46:15,430 So I think that was one of the big mistakes, 942 00:46:15,430 --> 00:46:17,960 is that you throw yourself into a movement, 943 00:46:17,960 --> 00:46:21,420 but then you forget to bring people in with you. 944 00:46:21,420 --> 00:46:23,360 PROFESSOR: Do you think-- I read that there 945 00:46:23,360 --> 00:46:26,600 were some tactics to kind of agitate people 946 00:46:26,600 --> 00:46:28,610 with face-to-face relation. 947 00:46:28,610 --> 00:46:30,320 Like people were going in the street, 948 00:46:30,320 --> 00:46:35,510 and there were some regimen points at different places 949 00:46:35,510 --> 00:46:37,800 in working neighborhoods. 950 00:46:37,800 --> 00:46:41,570 And people were meeting there, and then they 951 00:46:41,570 --> 00:46:43,390 were going down the street chanting 952 00:46:43,390 --> 00:46:46,340 slogans, positive slogans, to kind of drive 953 00:46:46,340 --> 00:46:50,620 more people with them walking towards Tahrir Square. 954 00:46:50,620 --> 00:46:52,340 Do you think that these kind of tactics 955 00:46:52,340 --> 00:46:56,340 are more efficient than the Facebook or the digital media 956 00:46:56,340 --> 00:46:56,980 tactics? 957 00:46:56,980 --> 00:46:59,030 Or it's kind of a combination of both 958 00:46:59,030 --> 00:47:03,480 that makes it more-- that allowed to reach more 959 00:47:03,480 --> 00:47:06,220 people, more diverse crowd? 960 00:47:06,220 --> 00:47:09,870 LARA BALADI: I think it's all of-- it's everything together. 961 00:47:09,870 --> 00:47:12,840 It's almost like it's something-- 962 00:47:12,840 --> 00:47:15,680 you have to imagine it like something climaxing. 963 00:47:15,680 --> 00:47:18,350 So you have all these things happening, 964 00:47:18,350 --> 00:47:20,930 but you're not really aware, maybe, that they're happening. 965 00:47:20,930 --> 00:47:23,410 But suddenly, everybody finds themselves in the same place 966 00:47:23,410 --> 00:47:25,260 and things collide. 967 00:47:25,260 --> 00:47:28,630 And it's that explosion that's actually incredible. 968 00:47:28,630 --> 00:47:34,530 And that creates that fascinating time that we lived. 969 00:47:34,530 --> 00:47:36,140 And so it's a combination. 970 00:47:36,140 --> 00:47:38,000 It's like a timing. 971 00:47:38,000 --> 00:47:40,570 It's like a moment where everybody was ready. 972 00:47:40,570 --> 00:47:42,490 There's maybe some [INAUDIBLE] I don't know. 973 00:47:42,490 --> 00:47:44,040 But who knows. 974 00:47:44,040 --> 00:47:49,050 But there was a real kind of an invisible march 975 00:47:49,050 --> 00:47:51,310 towards that time. 976 00:47:51,310 --> 00:47:55,020 And the tactics that where you were-- of course, 977 00:47:55,020 --> 00:47:56,250 they started on Facebook. 978 00:47:56,250 --> 00:48:01,460 As [INAUDIBLE] Facebook, which I find out later, 979 00:48:01,460 --> 00:48:03,660 prepares people for the 25th of January, 980 00:48:03,660 --> 00:48:07,890 saying, go down with an onion in your pocket, 981 00:48:07,890 --> 00:48:13,960 with a bottle of vinegar, and with a mask if you can. 982 00:48:13,960 --> 00:48:18,010 And so I found myself in Tahrir on the Friday, 983 00:48:18,010 --> 00:48:20,960 on the Day of Anger at 10:00 in the morning. 984 00:48:20,960 --> 00:48:22,490 I didn't even know there was marches 985 00:48:22,490 --> 00:48:24,665 going from these mosques and all this. 986 00:48:24,665 --> 00:48:27,995 And I just knew everybody was going to meet in Tahrir. 987 00:48:27,995 --> 00:48:30,690 But I didn't realize there was a kind of movement that was 988 00:48:30,690 --> 00:48:33,570 going to actually take place. 989 00:48:33,570 --> 00:48:37,700 So I go before everybody, very early. 990 00:48:37,700 --> 00:48:41,460 Which means that I find myself in the center of the city 991 00:48:41,460 --> 00:48:45,530 where then, few hours later, there's already demonstrations. 992 00:48:45,530 --> 00:48:47,970 So people are marching up and down the streets. 993 00:48:47,970 --> 00:48:50,235 And there's already these groups of people kind 994 00:48:50,235 --> 00:48:55,450 of occupying the main streets of the area around Tahrir. 995 00:48:55,450 --> 00:48:58,990 And there's police kind of blocking the entrance to Tahrir 996 00:48:58,990 --> 00:49:02,370 from the outskirts of the city, of the center of the city. 997 00:49:02,370 --> 00:49:06,280 And all these marches kind of come towards the center, 998 00:49:06,280 --> 00:49:08,330 and of course, confront the police. 999 00:49:08,330 --> 00:49:09,280 But I'm also inside. 1000 00:49:09,280 --> 00:49:11,270 So I'm confronting the police from inside. 1001 00:49:11,270 --> 00:49:12,971 It's like a big mess. 1002 00:49:12,971 --> 00:49:15,359 And it's really funny. 1003 00:49:15,359 --> 00:49:17,650 Because suddenly, I'm, like, what the hell is going on? 1004 00:49:17,650 --> 00:49:20,115 And then boom-- tear gas. 1005 00:49:20,115 --> 00:49:20,830 It's horrible. 1006 00:49:20,830 --> 00:49:22,705 I don't know if you've experienced it before. 1007 00:49:22,705 --> 00:49:26,345 But you start really coughing and everything hurts. 1008 00:49:26,345 --> 00:49:29,550 And it's really itchy and so on. 1009 00:49:29,550 --> 00:49:32,650 And some guy next to you will give you vinegar 1010 00:49:32,650 --> 00:49:34,650 and you wash your face with vinegar. 1011 00:49:34,650 --> 00:49:37,820 And so it's all these tactics that were 1012 00:49:37,820 --> 00:49:39,882 shared on the Facebook page. 1013 00:49:39,882 --> 00:49:41,340 But then when you're on the street, 1014 00:49:41,340 --> 00:49:42,690 you're dealing with the street. 1015 00:49:42,690 --> 00:49:43,963 You have to react quickly. 1016 00:49:43,963 --> 00:49:46,030 And you have to hide when you have to hide. 1017 00:49:46,030 --> 00:49:51,790 And you have to understand violence very quickly, 1018 00:49:51,790 --> 00:49:54,000 and understand where you stand in all of this. 1019 00:49:54,000 --> 00:50:02,330 So it's a mix of always adapting and having people with you 1020 00:50:02,330 --> 00:50:04,040 that everybody supports each other. 1021 00:50:04,040 --> 00:50:05,900 So there's a real solidarity that's 1022 00:50:05,900 --> 00:50:07,440 very natural that takes place. 1023 00:50:07,440 --> 00:50:09,210 Because when you have a very clear enemy, 1024 00:50:09,210 --> 00:50:12,240 it's very easy to be friends with your neighbor. 1025 00:50:12,240 --> 00:50:14,390 When you're not sure who the enemy is, 1026 00:50:14,390 --> 00:50:16,960 then everybody's your enemy, in a way. 1027 00:50:16,960 --> 00:50:19,950 So it's a very interesting time, because it's 1028 00:50:19,950 --> 00:50:21,830 very clear who the enemy is. 1029 00:50:21,830 --> 00:50:25,505 And so the energy and the kind of togetherness 1030 00:50:25,505 --> 00:50:28,030 is incredibly strong. 1031 00:50:28,030 --> 00:50:36,250 And so methods of responding to the very fast-changing times 1032 00:50:36,250 --> 00:50:38,340 that we're living in those 18 days, 1033 00:50:38,340 --> 00:50:40,980 and then a bit slower as times goes 1034 00:50:40,980 --> 00:50:44,850 in the aftermath of Tahrir, is all about people 1035 00:50:44,850 --> 00:50:47,070 finding solutions to everything. 1036 00:50:47,070 --> 00:50:49,230 And those solutions are shared on Twitter. 1037 00:50:49,230 --> 00:50:51,360 They're in the street. 1038 00:50:51,360 --> 00:50:53,940 And maybe you can show-- I don't know 1039 00:50:53,940 --> 00:50:58,460 where it is in the sildeshow, but the way Tahrir [INAUDIBLE]. 1040 00:50:58,460 --> 00:50:59,870 PROFESSOR: I have photo of this. 1041 00:50:59,870 --> 00:51:02,832 LARA BALADI: Yes, here, the camp. 1042 00:51:02,832 --> 00:51:05,520 Can you do it to slideshow? 1043 00:51:05,520 --> 00:51:10,040 So this is an image of [INAUDIBLE] 1044 00:51:10,040 --> 00:51:11,820 and how it was organized. 1045 00:51:11,820 --> 00:51:15,040 And so at the center of it, under the tents, 1046 00:51:15,040 --> 00:51:19,290 you have the blogger tent, the media tent. 1047 00:51:19,290 --> 00:51:23,280 Then you have an area where you have the medical part, where 1048 00:51:23,280 --> 00:51:26,310 people who were hurt were being helped by whoever's a doctor, 1049 00:51:26,310 --> 00:51:28,520 was actually sudden improvise themselves 1050 00:51:28,520 --> 00:51:30,670 as making a hospital. 1051 00:51:30,670 --> 00:51:33,460 And the space in the square where people could be taken 1052 00:51:33,460 --> 00:51:34,350 care of. 1053 00:51:34,350 --> 00:51:36,160 On Twitter you would have suddenly 1054 00:51:36,160 --> 00:51:43,690 hashtags of medical supplies and Tahrir Square-- different types 1055 00:51:43,690 --> 00:51:48,470 of names and people improvising accounts, but also organizing 1056 00:51:48,470 --> 00:51:49,570 in little groups. 1057 00:51:49,570 --> 00:51:51,530 And saying if you're going to bring something, 1058 00:51:51,530 --> 00:51:54,130 bring it-- let's focus. 1059 00:51:54,130 --> 00:51:58,202 Not everybody brings band-aids. 1060 00:51:58,202 --> 00:52:00,410 If you want to bring something, this is what we need. 1061 00:52:00,410 --> 00:52:01,110 This is what we need. 1062 00:52:01,110 --> 00:52:02,151 And this is what we need. 1063 00:52:02,151 --> 00:52:03,350 And this is where we are. 1064 00:52:03,350 --> 00:52:05,490 And so you can start helping people 1065 00:52:05,490 --> 00:52:07,120 by following what's going on. 1066 00:52:07,120 --> 00:52:13,450 So it's a combination of street intelligence and communication 1067 00:52:13,450 --> 00:52:16,750 online, and communication between people. 1068 00:52:16,750 --> 00:52:22,650 So it's a very fast-moving time and vary fascinating, 1069 00:52:22,650 --> 00:52:25,062 because it really plays out on so many layers. 1070 00:52:25,062 --> 00:52:26,770 PROFESSOR: There's kind of an interaction 1071 00:52:26,770 --> 00:52:29,420 between organizing on the ground, 1072 00:52:29,420 --> 00:52:32,670 organizing in the social media. 1073 00:52:32,670 --> 00:52:34,710 I want to switch subject and talk 1074 00:52:34,710 --> 00:52:36,360 a bit about the role of social media 1075 00:52:36,360 --> 00:52:40,930 for bringing the world attention to the cause. 1076 00:52:40,930 --> 00:52:43,930 There's no doubt that Facebook, YouTube, Flickr, Twitter 1077 00:52:43,930 --> 00:52:47,700 facilitated the citizen journalism, helped 1078 00:52:47,700 --> 00:52:49,720 desseminating the news, showing the police 1079 00:52:49,720 --> 00:52:53,400 brutality to the world, eliciting 1080 00:52:53,400 --> 00:52:55,000 international attention. 1081 00:52:55,000 --> 00:52:57,830 And similarly, the activists involved in the Occupy Movement 1082 00:52:57,830 --> 00:53:00,400 creatively used social media and cutting-edge technology 1083 00:53:00,400 --> 00:53:02,660 like live streaming to kind of bring 1084 00:53:02,660 --> 00:53:06,670 the world attention to the encampment and to the cause 1085 00:53:06,670 --> 00:53:08,170 itself. 1086 00:53:08,170 --> 00:53:10,210 And both movements really managed 1087 00:53:10,210 --> 00:53:13,410 to secure an impressive degree of public support. 1088 00:53:13,410 --> 00:53:15,710 In your article, "When Seeing is Belonging"-- 1089 00:53:15,710 --> 00:53:16,830 I'm referring to it a lot. 1090 00:53:16,830 --> 00:53:18,260 I really liked it. 1091 00:53:18,260 --> 00:53:20,870 You mentioned that the image of Tahrir Square 1092 00:53:20,870 --> 00:53:23,680 circulating on the web and in the news, 1093 00:53:23,680 --> 00:53:27,780 and I quote, "Turn all established cliches of Egypt 1094 00:53:27,780 --> 00:53:29,160 on their heads." 1095 00:53:29,160 --> 00:53:31,650 And I really like this idea. 1096 00:53:31,650 --> 00:53:34,750 And I would like to ask you how exactly did these images change 1097 00:53:34,750 --> 00:53:37,590 the world perception of Egypt? 1098 00:53:37,590 --> 00:53:41,040 LARA BALADI: It feels so old already, and sadly so, 1099 00:53:41,040 --> 00:53:42,860 because of what's happening now with ISIS 1100 00:53:42,860 --> 00:53:45,102 and all this horrible stuff. 1101 00:53:45,102 --> 00:53:47,910 But at the time, if you remember, 1102 00:53:47,910 --> 00:53:52,010 2011-- this is like 10 years after 9/11. 1103 00:53:52,010 --> 00:53:54,630 And there's been this whole War on Terror 1104 00:53:54,630 --> 00:53:58,150 and this whole really-- I mean, it's not new from 9/11, 1105 00:53:58,150 --> 00:53:59,540 but it's multiplied. 1106 00:53:59,540 --> 00:54:03,170 And it grew exponentially after 9/11, 1107 00:54:03,170 --> 00:54:07,440 that whole visible of the Arab world, 1108 00:54:07,440 --> 00:54:11,835 and putting everybody into an Arab 1109 00:54:11,835 --> 00:54:13,750 is a Muslim and Muslim is a terrorist. 1110 00:54:13,750 --> 00:54:16,450 And it's like this kind of generalization 1111 00:54:16,450 --> 00:54:19,560 of what the Arab world is. 1112 00:54:19,560 --> 00:54:23,590 So one of the cliches was-- I should have put this picture, 1113 00:54:23,590 --> 00:54:27,890 but it doesn't matter-- but one of the first things 1114 00:54:27,890 --> 00:54:30,140 that kind of comes up is suddenly, 1115 00:54:30,140 --> 00:54:34,830 the dirty Arab-- the terrorists-- is not a terrorist 1116 00:54:34,830 --> 00:54:35,330 anymore. 1117 00:54:35,330 --> 00:54:37,020 He's actually a revolutionary. 1118 00:54:37,020 --> 00:54:39,020 And he's working for peace in the world. 1119 00:54:39,020 --> 00:54:42,220 And he wants change and he wakes everybody up. 1120 00:54:42,220 --> 00:54:44,890 The whole world was stuck to their television looking 1121 00:54:44,890 --> 00:54:45,800 at Tahrir. 1122 00:54:45,800 --> 00:54:48,330 It was one of the most [INAUDIBLE], 1123 00:54:48,330 --> 00:54:50,580 and still is until today. 1124 00:54:50,580 --> 00:54:54,180 So that was one thing. 1125 00:54:54,180 --> 00:54:58,930 Then, if you remember, there was the Wisconsin actually happened 1126 00:54:58,930 --> 00:55:00,360 more [INAUDIBLE] time of Tahrir. 1127 00:55:00,360 --> 00:55:03,540 And one of the funniest images that came out 1128 00:55:03,540 --> 00:55:08,330 was this woman holding a banner saying, Egypt, help us. 1129 00:55:08,330 --> 00:55:12,940 So from America being very anti-Arabs and anti-terrorists 1130 00:55:12,940 --> 00:55:17,630 and anti- anything that comes out of the Arab world, 1131 00:55:17,630 --> 00:55:19,900 you have this kind of like calling for help 1132 00:55:19,900 --> 00:55:22,490 from-- we actually are friends. 1133 00:55:22,490 --> 00:55:23,735 And we think the same way. 1134 00:55:23,735 --> 00:55:26,530 And we discovered that maybe we can get along. 1135 00:55:26,530 --> 00:55:28,320 So this was really interesting. 1136 00:55:28,320 --> 00:55:31,720 And of course, to go back to photography, and to my interest 1137 00:55:31,720 --> 00:55:33,300 as an artist and the medium that I 1138 00:55:33,300 --> 00:55:40,180 use in making images, what happens-- not so much in the 18 1139 00:55:40,180 --> 00:55:44,810 days as much as just after 18 days, 1140 00:55:44,810 --> 00:55:49,980 the whole period, the aftermath after Mubarak is toppled 1141 00:55:49,980 --> 00:55:55,310 is also to watch how I've experienced 1142 00:55:55,310 --> 00:55:57,942 Egypt all my life as a kid, and all 1143 00:55:57,942 --> 00:56:03,925 my life as an adult with this relationship 1144 00:56:03,925 --> 00:56:07,860 it has with the West, and with tourism, 1145 00:56:07,860 --> 00:56:11,370 and how Egypt has always been a place where-- I'm sure 1146 00:56:11,370 --> 00:56:13,732 all of you have studied ancient Egypt 1147 00:56:13,732 --> 00:56:15,440 when you were 11 years old, more or less. 1148 00:56:15,440 --> 00:56:18,800 So that's in every schoolbook in the world, 1149 00:56:18,800 --> 00:56:21,897 you have ancient Egypt more or less at the age of nine or 11, 1150 00:56:21,897 --> 00:56:22,730 something like this. 1151 00:56:22,730 --> 00:56:25,447 So it's the first fascination with the world. 1152 00:56:25,447 --> 00:56:26,780 And it's the first civilization. 1153 00:56:26,780 --> 00:56:29,670 And everybody wants to see the Pyramids. 1154 00:56:29,670 --> 00:56:30,570 But here we go. 1155 00:56:30,570 --> 00:56:31,920 We're like, we have Tahrir. 1156 00:56:31,920 --> 00:56:35,090 And this pyramids, which here is not a cliche. 1157 00:56:35,090 --> 00:56:37,590 It's actually another way of looking at the Pyramids-- which 1158 00:56:37,590 --> 00:56:42,310 itself takes away the cliche of the idea that these Pyramids 1159 00:56:42,310 --> 00:56:48,450 are unobtainable-- gets replaced by the birds-eye view 1160 00:56:48,450 --> 00:56:51,160 of Tahrir. 1161 00:56:51,160 --> 00:56:53,700 And after the 18 days, you start watching 1162 00:56:53,700 --> 00:57:00,720 all of these Western people that come and do tourism in Tahrir, 1163 00:57:00,720 --> 00:57:02,340 and don't want to see the revolution, 1164 00:57:02,340 --> 00:57:03,520 want to be part of it. 1165 00:57:03,520 --> 00:57:05,200 So you have people who are activists. 1166 00:57:05,200 --> 00:57:09,479 You have people who are just people who are 1167 00:57:09,479 --> 00:57:10,770 fascinated by what's happening. 1168 00:57:10,770 --> 00:57:11,894 They want to be part of it. 1169 00:57:11,894 --> 00:57:12,672 They just come. 1170 00:57:12,672 --> 00:57:15,660 And so you see this new kind of tourism evolve, 1171 00:57:15,660 --> 00:57:21,870 and Egypt becoming associated with the revolution, Tahrir, 1172 00:57:21,870 --> 00:57:23,984 people, et cetera, et cetera. 1173 00:57:23,984 --> 00:57:25,650 And no one's talking about the Pyramids. 1174 00:57:25,650 --> 00:57:28,570 I'm not even sure anybody's even going to see them. 1175 00:57:28,570 --> 00:57:30,275 And I'm not sure how long that's going 1176 00:57:30,275 --> 00:57:32,030 to take for them to come back. 1177 00:57:32,030 --> 00:57:35,620 But I think it's a very interesting sort of shift, 1178 00:57:35,620 --> 00:57:40,710 and how overnight, that image that's been there for centuries 1179 00:57:40,710 --> 00:57:46,600 gets kind of deleted, and replaced by this other Egypt 1180 00:57:46,600 --> 00:57:48,370 that we're in the middle of at the moment. 1181 00:57:48,370 --> 00:57:52,281 PROFESSOR: I will definitely visit Tahrir Square if I go. 1182 00:57:52,281 --> 00:57:54,030 LARA BALADI: You'll be sadly disappointed, 1183 00:57:54,030 --> 00:57:57,737 but I can still take you to the Pyramids. 1184 00:57:57,737 --> 00:57:59,320 PROFESSOR: All right, I'd like to talk 1185 00:57:59,320 --> 00:58:02,250 a little bit about the role of social media as an alternative 1186 00:58:02,250 --> 00:58:06,980 to commercial media. 1187 00:58:06,980 --> 00:58:11,620 Earlier in the semester, we learned 1188 00:58:11,620 --> 00:58:14,250 that a few media companies own the majority of the world's 1189 00:58:14,250 --> 00:58:15,140 media outlets. 1190 00:58:15,140 --> 00:58:18,620 And with Herman and Chomsky, we saw 1191 00:58:18,620 --> 00:58:21,210 that this was a problem, like a threat to democracy, 1192 00:58:21,210 --> 00:58:24,410 because the mass media tend to construct a worldview that 1193 00:58:24,410 --> 00:58:27,660 conforms to the need of corporate advertisement, 1194 00:58:27,660 --> 00:58:30,090 valorising some political perspective 1195 00:58:30,090 --> 00:58:33,250 and marginalizing other perspectives. 1196 00:58:33,250 --> 00:58:36,700 And in this context, a lot of people see internet as a space 1197 00:58:36,700 --> 00:58:39,550 where counter-hegemonic point of view can be expressed. 1198 00:58:39,550 --> 00:58:41,370 And in countries like Egypt, the situation 1199 00:58:41,370 --> 00:58:42,940 is even worse, since the media are 1200 00:58:42,940 --> 00:58:47,050 controlled by the government and subjected to censorship. 1201 00:58:47,050 --> 00:58:49,920 Actually, that's more a question than an affirmation. 1202 00:58:49,920 --> 00:58:54,020 How biased was the Egyptian coverage of the revolution? 1203 00:58:54,020 --> 00:58:56,810 And to what extent all these events happening 1204 00:58:56,810 --> 00:59:00,875 were censored by the regime in the mass media in Egypt? 1205 00:59:03,610 --> 00:59:06,217 LARA BALADI: I want to maybe answer this and look 1206 00:59:06,217 --> 00:59:09,180 a little bit-- can we come out of the slideshow 1207 00:59:09,180 --> 00:59:10,790 so we see a little bit? 1208 00:59:10,790 --> 00:59:24,220 [INAUDIBLE] So yeah, it's a joke. 1209 00:59:24,220 --> 00:59:26,730 It's propaganda, but old-style. 1210 00:59:26,730 --> 00:59:27,930 It's like grotesque. 1211 00:59:27,930 --> 00:59:29,750 Grotesque-- you know that word? 1212 00:59:29,750 --> 00:59:37,650 So it's really ridiculously-- it's one big lie. 1213 00:59:37,650 --> 00:59:42,000 And it's sadly almost funny. 1214 00:59:42,000 --> 00:59:45,140 It's dark humor at that point. 1215 00:59:45,140 --> 00:59:48,080 And when the revolution starts, nothing really changes. 1216 00:59:48,080 --> 00:59:50,070 I mean, actually people who did not 1217 00:59:50,070 --> 00:59:52,910 want to continue to participate to that lie 1218 00:59:52,910 --> 00:59:59,140 left their jobs at the state media. 1219 00:59:59,140 --> 01:00:03,684 And the state media continues to have a huge amount of power, 1220 01:00:03,684 --> 01:00:05,350 because of what I was saying earlier, is 1221 01:00:05,350 --> 01:00:07,290 that most people actually don't have internet. 1222 01:00:07,290 --> 01:00:10,600 A lot of people do, but a lot of people still don't. 1223 01:00:10,600 --> 01:00:12,720 And a lot of people believe in their army. 1224 01:00:12,720 --> 01:00:14,690 I mean, why we're back in the military regime 1225 01:00:14,690 --> 01:00:16,980 is because Egypt has a relationship that's 1226 01:00:16,980 --> 01:00:19,480 a little bit incestuous with their army. 1227 01:00:19,480 --> 01:00:23,390 We have an army that is not really 1228 01:00:23,390 --> 01:00:26,270 that interested in keeping the country protected 1229 01:00:26,270 --> 01:00:30,240 from potential external enemies, as much as we have an army that 1230 01:00:30,240 --> 01:00:33,320 is there to control us. 1231 01:00:33,320 --> 01:00:35,900 But that army is made of us. 1232 01:00:35,900 --> 01:00:39,060 So every single family in Egypt has at least two or three 1233 01:00:39,060 --> 01:00:41,190 people that are in the army. 1234 01:00:41,190 --> 01:00:45,560 So nobody wants their army to be at war, either with them 1235 01:00:45,560 --> 01:00:47,020 or with anybody else, because that 1236 01:00:47,020 --> 01:00:48,490 would be their son, their father, 1237 01:00:48,490 --> 01:00:52,700 their brother could be endangered. 1238 01:00:52,700 --> 01:00:56,040 However, the army and the regime control the media. 1239 01:00:56,040 --> 01:00:59,650 And so at one point in the evolution of the events, 1240 01:00:59,650 --> 01:01:03,570 and the continuation of the role of the army post-Mubarak 1241 01:01:03,570 --> 01:01:07,590 being toppled-- so we go from Mubarak to having 1242 01:01:07,590 --> 01:01:10,930 the rule of the SCAF-- the Supreme Council 1243 01:01:10,930 --> 01:01:14,790 of Armed Forces, which is the army. 1244 01:01:14,790 --> 01:01:20,150 We have a whole series of events that take place. 1245 01:01:20,150 --> 01:01:23,920 And one of them is a very terrible massacre 1246 01:01:23,920 --> 01:01:28,970 that happens in October, 2011 in front of the state media-- 1247 01:01:28,970 --> 01:01:34,760 Maspero-- this huge building that is on the Nile in Cairo, 1248 01:01:34,760 --> 01:01:37,776 where the media is broadcasted. 1249 01:01:37,776 --> 01:01:41,960 And there's a demonstration because a lot 1250 01:01:41,960 --> 01:01:44,560 of-- at the time, a lot of Christian churches 1251 01:01:44,560 --> 01:01:45,470 are being attacked. 1252 01:01:45,470 --> 01:01:47,140 This is a period for months and months 1253 01:01:47,140 --> 01:01:48,970 and months where we don't have police in the country, 1254 01:01:48,970 --> 01:01:50,210 in the city, and nowhere. 1255 01:01:50,210 --> 01:01:51,730 So we were very happy, actually. 1256 01:01:51,730 --> 01:01:54,690 But there was still a lot of little crime, 1257 01:01:54,690 --> 01:01:57,480 given that there is no police. 1258 01:01:57,480 --> 01:01:59,880 So of course there is going to be crime. 1259 01:01:59,880 --> 01:02:05,700 But these crimes happening in upper Egypt 1260 01:02:05,700 --> 01:02:09,430 lead to these demonstrations to ask for the Supreme 1261 01:02:09,430 --> 01:02:12,360 Council of Armed Forces to protect the Christians in Egypt 1262 01:02:12,360 --> 01:02:14,000 who are a minority. 1263 01:02:14,000 --> 01:02:18,810 That demonstration leads to the army actually rolling 1264 01:02:18,810 --> 01:02:20,270 over people. 1265 01:02:20,270 --> 01:02:24,730 And the whole thing is atrocious. 1266 01:02:24,730 --> 01:02:26,074 People get rolled over. 1267 01:02:26,074 --> 01:02:27,490 The photos-- I can't even tell you 1268 01:02:27,490 --> 01:02:30,320 the horrible photos that surfaced on Facebook 1269 01:02:30,320 --> 01:02:32,540 and whatever. 1270 01:02:32,540 --> 01:02:33,940 Lots of people died. 1271 01:02:33,940 --> 01:02:35,980 It was really, really ugly. 1272 01:02:35,980 --> 01:02:40,790 And of course, the army goes on TV and says, 1273 01:02:40,790 --> 01:02:43,740 oh, but we don't use live ammunition. 1274 01:02:43,740 --> 01:02:45,380 We don't actually use live ammunition. 1275 01:02:45,380 --> 01:02:47,410 We didn't do anything. 1276 01:02:47,410 --> 01:02:54,350 And so this graffiti says [ARABIC] liars. 1277 01:02:54,350 --> 01:03:00,500 And it has the army cap. 1278 01:03:00,500 --> 01:03:05,220 So [ARABIC] becomes a movement where 1279 01:03:05,220 --> 01:03:07,830 people do sort of video flash mobs 1280 01:03:07,830 --> 01:03:12,720 in the streets projecting videos of martyrs and others 1281 01:03:12,720 --> 01:03:15,430 at very impromptu moments in the street, 1282 01:03:15,430 --> 01:03:17,600 saying the army is lying to you. 1283 01:03:17,600 --> 01:03:21,360 And this is in a popular area of Cairo. 1284 01:03:21,360 --> 01:03:23,590 PROFESSOR: And what about the American media? 1285 01:03:23,590 --> 01:03:27,830 Because we saw in the course that the American media tend 1286 01:03:27,830 --> 01:03:30,600 to be very biased, especially when 1287 01:03:30,600 --> 01:03:32,150 they cover international politics. 1288 01:03:32,150 --> 01:03:35,790 And we know that the States were supporting the Mubarak regime 1289 01:03:35,790 --> 01:03:38,400 to a certain extent before the revolution. 1290 01:03:38,400 --> 01:03:42,775 So were the American media also biased, very biased, 1291 01:03:42,775 --> 01:03:45,420 or where they more fair during the revolution? 1292 01:03:45,420 --> 01:03:47,860 LARA BALADI: I don't know if [ARABIC] is-- 1293 01:03:47,860 --> 01:03:50,463 what [ARABIC] is-- this one. 1294 01:03:50,463 --> 01:03:53,309 Do you know what this child is? 1295 01:03:53,309 --> 01:03:55,100 PROFESSOR: Anybody recognize where this is? 1296 01:03:55,100 --> 01:03:55,670 LARA BALADI: I'm not sure where is it from, but-- 1297 01:03:55,670 --> 01:03:57,017 AUDIENCE: It's Russia. 1298 01:03:57,017 --> 01:03:58,100 LARA BALADI: It is, right? 1299 01:03:58,100 --> 01:04:03,014 So this is quite funny, because with your text. 1300 01:04:03,014 --> 01:04:05,180 PROFESSOR: Let's talk about the role of social media 1301 01:04:05,180 --> 01:04:07,460 in organizing the protests. 1302 01:04:07,460 --> 01:04:10,870 So we often refer to-- the scholars 1303 01:04:10,870 --> 01:04:13,720 often refer to social media as a means to coordinate 1304 01:04:13,720 --> 01:04:15,940 gatherings, road blockage, protests, 1305 01:04:15,940 --> 01:04:19,190 other forms of actions on the ground during the Arab Spring 1306 01:04:19,190 --> 01:04:20,610 and the Occupy Movement. 1307 01:04:20,610 --> 01:04:23,880 Apparently Facebook was used to set the date of events. 1308 01:04:23,880 --> 01:04:26,720 Twitter was used to connect people across distance 1309 01:04:26,720 --> 01:04:28,840 and to share logistics in real time. 1310 01:04:28,840 --> 01:04:31,800 As you said earlier, you have to react quickly on the ground. 1311 01:04:31,800 --> 01:04:35,662 So sometimes Twitter was saying this is the rallying point. 1312 01:04:35,662 --> 01:04:37,370 This is the location where the police is. 1313 01:04:37,370 --> 01:04:39,800 This is the things we need, the medicine 1314 01:04:39,800 --> 01:04:44,290 we need for-- because there were people injured. 1315 01:04:44,290 --> 01:04:47,410 And Gerbaudo uses the expression "choreography 1316 01:04:47,410 --> 01:04:50,400 of assembly" to describe the role of social media 1317 01:04:50,400 --> 01:04:53,400 in facilitating the physical assembly of highly 1318 01:04:53,400 --> 01:04:57,240 dispersed individuals, as well as the scene setting 1319 01:04:57,240 --> 01:05:00,010 and scripting. 1320 01:05:00,010 --> 01:05:05,400 So how did you use, yourself, the social media as a means 1321 01:05:05,400 --> 01:05:08,630 to organize your day, where you're going to go, 1322 01:05:08,630 --> 01:05:12,220 what you're going to do during the revolution? 1323 01:05:12,220 --> 01:05:14,245 LARA BALADI: I mean, again, I wasn't 1324 01:05:14,245 --> 01:05:15,730 a Facebook, Twitter person. 1325 01:05:15,730 --> 01:05:19,370 So I was using it more to kind of know what was going on, 1326 01:05:19,370 --> 01:05:24,140 and to make sure I wouldn't miss something dangerous 1327 01:05:24,140 --> 01:05:26,090 or something I should know about. 1328 01:05:26,090 --> 01:05:30,990 So it was very-- and actually, for a little while, 1329 01:05:30,990 --> 01:05:32,550 I always felt a little bit late. 1330 01:05:32,550 --> 01:05:34,390 Like, I always felt like I'm really 1331 01:05:34,390 --> 01:05:36,910 sure what's going on here. 1332 01:05:36,910 --> 01:05:40,175 I spent a lot of time trying to make sense of it. 1333 01:05:40,175 --> 01:05:42,410 And in retrospect, talking to people, 1334 01:05:42,410 --> 01:05:44,250 everybody was in that same situation. 1335 01:05:44,250 --> 01:05:46,430 Because no one really was expecting this to happen. 1336 01:05:46,430 --> 01:05:50,560 So everyone was trying to figure out who was who in all of this. 1337 01:05:50,560 --> 01:05:52,230 Who's doing this, actually? 1338 01:05:52,230 --> 01:05:55,750 Is there somebody doing this, or where is this coming from? 1339 01:05:55,750 --> 01:06:01,920 So there was a sense of first understanding minute 1340 01:06:01,920 --> 01:06:04,110 by minute where you stand. 1341 01:06:04,110 --> 01:06:06,030 Because this is also where I live. 1342 01:06:06,030 --> 01:06:06,870 This is my life. 1343 01:06:06,870 --> 01:06:10,940 So for four years, I lived in the middle of-- I mean, one 1344 01:06:10,940 --> 01:06:17,820 night, one day-- I don't know what time it was. 1345 01:06:17,820 --> 01:06:20,540 It was maybe 11:00 PM or something. 1346 01:06:20,540 --> 01:06:24,900 And I live-- the Nile is not so far from me. 1347 01:06:24,900 --> 01:06:26,680 And on the other side of the Nile 1348 01:06:26,680 --> 01:06:29,540 is a whole area that is called Imbabah. 1349 01:06:29,540 --> 01:06:30,670 And it's a popular area. 1350 01:06:30,670 --> 01:06:34,230 It very, very, populated. 1351 01:06:34,230 --> 01:06:35,830 And Cairo is 7 million people. 1352 01:06:35,830 --> 01:06:40,210 So it's a very, very dense population and dense city. 1353 01:06:40,210 --> 01:06:43,660 And I live in an area where there's a lot embassies 1354 01:06:43,660 --> 01:06:45,090 and schools. 1355 01:06:45,090 --> 01:06:48,770 And it's between two branches of the Nile. 1356 01:06:48,770 --> 01:06:51,105 And so on one side is Tahrir and on the other side 1357 01:06:51,105 --> 01:06:52,520 is other areas of Cairo. 1358 01:06:52,520 --> 01:06:54,220 So I could walk to Tahrir. 1359 01:06:54,220 --> 01:06:57,110 But at the same time, I was across the Nile. 1360 01:06:57,110 --> 01:07:01,450 So there was a sense of, also a feeling of security. 1361 01:07:01,450 --> 01:07:02,990 People actually moved back to where 1362 01:07:02,990 --> 01:07:05,542 I lived, because it was almost the safest place to be 1363 01:07:05,542 --> 01:07:08,420 in Cairo, in that period. 1364 01:07:08,420 --> 01:07:11,080 But all of a sudden at 11:00 PM, I get up. 1365 01:07:11,080 --> 01:07:13,220 And I'm, like, what the hell is going on here? 1366 01:07:13,220 --> 01:07:16,560 And I look down at every window from my house. 1367 01:07:16,560 --> 01:07:18,440 And I've never seen this. 1368 01:07:18,440 --> 01:07:25,030 All these tanks are just driving super-fast in every street, 1369 01:07:25,030 --> 01:07:27,380 and heading towards this area. 1370 01:07:27,380 --> 01:07:30,700 And I mean, this was never seen. 1371 01:07:30,700 --> 01:07:31,610 You never saw this. 1372 01:07:31,610 --> 01:07:35,290 Or wake up in the morning and go to my kitchen. 1373 01:07:35,290 --> 01:07:37,390 And I'm about to go to Tahrir. 1374 01:07:37,390 --> 01:07:39,150 It's really early. 1375 01:07:39,150 --> 01:07:40,580 We're still in the 18 days. 1376 01:07:40,580 --> 01:07:44,240 And I look at my window, like, what's going on here? 1377 01:07:44,240 --> 01:07:48,370 And I see the building across the Nile that is burning. 1378 01:07:48,370 --> 01:07:49,840 So this whole area is burning. 1379 01:07:49,840 --> 01:07:51,090 And that was the Day of Anger. 1380 01:07:51,090 --> 01:07:53,700 Also, the following days after the Day of Anger, 1381 01:07:53,700 --> 01:07:55,880 everything had been looted and so on. 1382 01:07:55,880 --> 01:08:02,124 So it was constantly like negotiating the danger zones, 1383 01:08:02,124 --> 01:08:04,540 the moments where you should be in the street, the moments 1384 01:08:04,540 --> 01:08:09,140 where you shouldn't, what you're ready to go through or not. 1385 01:08:09,140 --> 01:08:12,490 I wasn't necessarily ready to get killed. 1386 01:08:12,490 --> 01:08:15,040 It wasn't really-- I don't think it was a smart thing to do. 1387 01:08:15,040 --> 01:08:20,689 So for me, Twitter, much more than Facebook, 1388 01:08:20,689 --> 01:08:25,180 was really a way of making sure I would know what 1389 01:08:25,180 --> 01:08:28,920 the kind of tension-- where we were at in the tension scale. 1390 01:08:28,920 --> 01:08:31,350 And so it was very interesting, because I was always 1391 01:08:31,350 --> 01:08:32,069 in the Square. 1392 01:08:32,069 --> 01:08:35,321 But I also always was aware that, oh, the army's 1393 01:08:35,321 --> 01:08:36,279 coming in half an hour. 1394 01:08:36,279 --> 01:08:37,653 We're going to get into a battle. 1395 01:08:37,653 --> 01:08:39,819 Tonight, there's going to be a sucker. 1396 01:08:39,819 --> 01:08:41,279 And this would happen. 1397 01:08:41,279 --> 01:08:43,819 So before this would happen, I would just go home 1398 01:08:43,819 --> 01:08:46,880 and say, I'm not going to get into this. 1399 01:08:46,880 --> 01:08:48,890 So it was really interesting to watch also 1400 01:08:48,890 --> 01:08:50,485 that movement on that. 1401 01:08:50,485 --> 01:08:54,069 But it was also very confusing, because some people were also 1402 01:08:54,069 --> 01:09:00,370 acting from the spur of the moment and a bit of hysteria. 1403 01:09:00,370 --> 01:09:01,819 And so not everything was real. 1404 01:09:01,819 --> 01:09:04,050 And not everything was true that was 1405 01:09:04,050 --> 01:09:06,160 being spread on social media. 1406 01:09:06,160 --> 01:09:09,680 So it's this whole constant kind of figuring out 1407 01:09:09,680 --> 01:09:11,990 what is real, what is not. 1408 01:09:11,990 --> 01:09:13,990 Is it really happening? 1409 01:09:13,990 --> 01:09:14,840 Who's there? 1410 01:09:14,840 --> 01:09:16,060 Someone you trust? 1411 01:09:16,060 --> 01:09:19,340 Try to get somebody on Twitter that you think 1412 01:09:19,340 --> 01:09:22,206 will not be talking bullshit. 1413 01:09:22,206 --> 01:09:27,330 And then you have, also, groups that form themselves according 1414 01:09:27,330 --> 01:09:29,479 to how the events unfold. 1415 01:09:29,479 --> 01:09:35,460 And so some of them are focusing on giving you the right news. 1416 01:09:35,460 --> 01:09:38,580 Some of them are focusing on giving you 1417 01:09:38,580 --> 01:09:41,479 information about what medical supplies are needed. 1418 01:09:41,479 --> 01:09:43,769 Some of them are organized. 1419 01:09:43,769 --> 01:09:45,060 And this was really incredible. 1420 01:09:45,060 --> 01:09:48,300 Much later in the game, we had a huge amount 1421 01:09:48,300 --> 01:09:49,990 of sexual harassment in Tahrir. 1422 01:09:49,990 --> 01:09:53,529 So you have this amazing crowd, especially 1423 01:09:53,529 --> 01:09:56,635 of women, that got together-- and young women-- that 1424 01:09:56,635 --> 01:09:59,630 got together to organize bodyguards, 1425 01:09:59,630 --> 01:10:02,980 and people who would help people go through the square 1426 01:10:02,980 --> 01:10:04,560 without being sexually harassed. 1427 01:10:04,560 --> 01:10:07,030 Of course, they got sexually harassed themselves 1428 01:10:07,030 --> 01:10:07,820 following that. 1429 01:10:07,820 --> 01:10:09,260 So it was pretty crazy. 1430 01:10:09,260 --> 01:10:13,230 But you had this amazing amount of energy of people 1431 01:10:13,230 --> 01:10:17,580 really putting themselves together, and coming in groups, 1432 01:10:17,580 --> 01:10:21,520 and creating a different support system. 1433 01:10:21,520 --> 01:10:23,230 So this is really fascinating, in how 1434 01:10:23,230 --> 01:10:24,580 people used social media. 1435 01:10:24,580 --> 01:10:27,344 And that way was really beautiful. 1436 01:10:27,344 --> 01:10:28,760 PROFESSOR: The authors that we had 1437 01:10:28,760 --> 01:10:32,260 to read for today, they seem to be convinced 1438 01:10:32,260 --> 01:10:35,270 that the most successful movements are always driven 1439 01:10:35,270 --> 01:10:38,140 by face-to-face relation, on-the-ground organization, 1440 01:10:38,140 --> 01:10:40,085 not only by social media. 1441 01:10:43,590 --> 01:10:45,940 And moreover, they would go as far 1442 01:10:45,940 --> 01:10:49,340 as saying that, when we put all our energy on building 1443 01:10:49,340 --> 01:10:53,050 websites, innovative software, technological infrastructure, 1444 01:10:53,050 --> 01:10:56,415 we're taking away the focus from building more movement 1445 01:10:56,415 --> 01:10:58,890 and alliance on the ground, and connecting, 1446 01:10:58,890 --> 01:11:03,670 like making real relationship with local communities. 1447 01:11:03,670 --> 01:11:08,880 It may be more accurate for the Occupy Movement. 1448 01:11:08,880 --> 01:11:12,620 And there's also this idea that the virtual proximity 1449 01:11:12,620 --> 01:11:16,080 that we can experiment online doesn't compare 1450 01:11:16,080 --> 01:11:20,350 to the community feeling, the body density, 1451 01:11:20,350 --> 01:11:23,200 of the protest camps where people 1452 01:11:23,200 --> 01:11:26,500 eat, sleep together, defend their territories together. 1453 01:11:26,500 --> 01:11:30,900 So there's this proximity of the bodies. 1454 01:11:30,900 --> 01:11:33,412 I don't know how you feel about this. 1455 01:11:33,412 --> 01:11:34,870 Do you think it's important to keep 1456 01:11:34,870 --> 01:11:39,870 this face-to-face interaction and physically occupy 1457 01:11:39,870 --> 01:11:41,650 a space during a revolution? 1458 01:11:41,650 --> 01:11:45,297 Or a revolution can only happen online? 1459 01:11:45,297 --> 01:11:46,380 LARA BALADI: I don't know. 1460 01:11:46,380 --> 01:11:48,720 I'm not a specialist in organizing revolutions. 1461 01:11:48,720 --> 01:11:52,570 But I mean, I don't know. 1462 01:11:52,570 --> 01:11:54,570 I mean, it's-- 1463 01:11:54,570 --> 01:11:56,700 PROFESSOR: Maybe a more easy question for you, 1464 01:11:56,700 --> 01:11:58,960 because it's kind of abstract, but did, 1465 01:11:58,960 --> 01:12:01,840 at some point in the revolution, Tahrir 1466 01:12:01,840 --> 01:12:04,860 became a kind of coordination platform 1467 01:12:04,860 --> 01:12:07,000 more than social media? 1468 01:12:07,000 --> 01:12:10,209 Meaning like you could get information on the ground? 1469 01:12:10,209 --> 01:12:11,500 LARA BALADI: No, no, of course. 1470 01:12:11,500 --> 01:12:13,541 It was very different what happened on the ground 1471 01:12:13,541 --> 01:12:16,880 and what you could-- depending on-- I 1472 01:12:16,880 --> 01:12:19,340 mean, if you are somebody on Twitter since two or three 1473 01:12:19,340 --> 01:12:21,420 years, I think you would probably 1474 01:12:21,420 --> 01:12:30,300 have a much more understandable kind of map of actions, events. 1475 01:12:30,300 --> 01:12:32,840 And you would probably have been aware 1476 01:12:32,840 --> 01:12:35,005 of the Facebook page of Khaled Saeed 1477 01:12:35,005 --> 01:12:38,010 and so on, much more before all of this would start. 1478 01:12:38,010 --> 01:12:40,345 So if you're part of that generation, or a journalist, 1479 01:12:40,345 --> 01:12:44,460 again-- were the main two categories 1480 01:12:44,460 --> 01:12:46,950 of people that used Twitter, for example. 1481 01:12:46,950 --> 01:12:50,570 I'll leave Facebook out for a while. 1482 01:12:50,570 --> 01:12:54,490 You would be really aware of which kind of people 1483 01:12:54,490 --> 01:12:57,860 have an interesting perception of the events, 1484 01:12:57,860 --> 01:12:59,650 and how to negotiate that. 1485 01:12:59,650 --> 01:13:01,070 And then on the ground, you would 1486 01:13:01,070 --> 01:13:05,010 be, therefore, definitely magnetized or attracted 1487 01:13:05,010 --> 01:13:08,060 by different areas in the square, 1488 01:13:08,060 --> 01:13:10,940 and where people were organized, or understand better 1489 01:13:10,940 --> 01:13:14,070 the kind of actual mapping of the ground of the picture I 1490 01:13:14,070 --> 01:13:19,650 showed you where you can see the bloggers and all of this. 1491 01:13:19,650 --> 01:13:22,190 I mean, as far as I'm concerned, it was kind of weird. 1492 01:13:22,190 --> 01:13:29,020 Because I lost my phone very-- not only there was no internet, 1493 01:13:29,020 --> 01:13:30,910 but I also lost my phone, like two, 1494 01:13:30,910 --> 01:13:32,809 three days after the whole thing started. 1495 01:13:32,809 --> 01:13:34,350 And of course, every shop was closed, 1496 01:13:34,350 --> 01:13:36,910 so I couldn't get a new phone for a few days. 1497 01:13:36,910 --> 01:13:39,840 So I really wanted a phone just to call my mother in Lebanon 1498 01:13:39,840 --> 01:13:41,940 and just make sure she wouldn't worry. 1499 01:13:41,940 --> 01:13:43,560 But I was completely disconnected 1500 01:13:43,560 --> 01:13:46,260 from my normal, daily life. 1501 01:13:46,260 --> 01:13:50,640 And I ended up being much more connected 1502 01:13:50,640 --> 01:13:54,350 to people on the streets, and knowing people on the street, 1503 01:13:54,350 --> 01:13:58,220 and figuring out how the square is organized, 1504 01:13:58,220 --> 01:14:00,850 and participate with that. 1505 01:14:00,850 --> 01:14:04,100 I think your question can be answered by yes and no, 1506 01:14:04,100 --> 01:14:08,410 because we're talking 18 days where something very specific, 1507 01:14:08,410 --> 01:14:12,010 where people really conglomerated 1508 01:14:12,010 --> 01:14:14,784 to Tahrir-- and in Alex and every other city. 1509 01:14:14,784 --> 01:14:16,200 We're always talking about Tahrir, 1510 01:14:16,200 --> 01:14:19,600 but there is the rest of Egypt. 1511 01:14:19,600 --> 01:14:21,530 But something, again, in that period, 1512 01:14:21,530 --> 01:14:25,470 you have a very clear enemy and you have a very careful goal. 1513 01:14:25,470 --> 01:14:28,150 But then afterwards, it's a very different situation. 1514 01:14:28,150 --> 01:14:31,400 And then so the negotiations that happened on the street 1515 01:14:31,400 --> 01:14:37,910 or online are a very different kind of-- they've 1516 01:14:37,910 --> 01:14:40,360 become very different in terms of the dynamics 1517 01:14:40,360 --> 01:14:42,430 and how they influenced what happens. 1518 01:14:42,430 --> 01:14:46,940 So there were periods where Facebook and Twitter were 1519 01:14:46,940 --> 01:14:50,019 at the front of what you needed to look at to really know 1520 01:14:50,019 --> 01:14:50,810 what was happening. 1521 01:14:50,810 --> 01:14:55,180 So I would say this was for sure the case during the 18 days. 1522 01:14:55,180 --> 01:14:59,110 At the later stage, there was much more focus 1523 01:14:59,110 --> 01:15:02,530 between foreign media, local media and social media. 1524 01:15:02,530 --> 01:15:04,910 So it was really covered by everybody and everything. 1525 01:15:04,910 --> 01:15:07,690 And that was like a total concentration 1526 01:15:07,690 --> 01:15:10,520 of media from all directions. 1527 01:15:10,520 --> 01:15:15,690 And less action on the streets, because the sit-in finished. 1528 01:15:15,690 --> 01:15:19,750 Some people stayed, but not the majority. 1529 01:15:19,750 --> 01:15:22,300 And then you have other waves, where 1530 01:15:22,300 --> 01:15:24,470 there's much more analysis going on, 1531 01:15:24,470 --> 01:15:26,890 where the politics on the ground are not 1532 01:15:26,890 --> 01:15:30,560 as violent, or not as regularity violent, 1533 01:15:30,560 --> 01:15:33,150 or not as regularly intense. 1534 01:15:33,150 --> 01:15:35,730 But what happens online is extraordinary. 1535 01:15:35,730 --> 01:15:39,100 And you have like 100 people talking, every day 1536 01:15:39,100 --> 01:15:41,270 writing blogs, and so on. 1537 01:15:41,270 --> 01:15:44,737 Plus, television becomes occupied by talking heads. 1538 01:15:44,737 --> 01:15:46,320 And it's talking heads, talking heads. 1539 01:15:46,320 --> 01:15:48,650 There was two years of talking heads, 1540 01:15:48,650 --> 01:15:51,230 of people finally talking. 1541 01:15:51,230 --> 01:15:52,610 And so it's analysis. 1542 01:15:52,610 --> 01:15:53,560 So what's going on? 1543 01:15:53,560 --> 01:15:54,610 What do you think is going on? 1544 01:15:54,610 --> 01:15:55,730 What do you think is going to happen? 1545 01:15:55,730 --> 01:15:56,940 What do you think of these guys? 1546 01:15:56,940 --> 01:15:58,240 What do you think of the Muslim Brotherhood? 1547 01:15:58,240 --> 01:15:59,520 What do you think of the army? 1548 01:15:59,520 --> 01:16:00,880 And we could say anything we wanted. 1549 01:16:00,880 --> 01:16:03,130 We just didn't realize we wouldn't have that much time 1550 01:16:03,130 --> 01:16:04,300 to continue to do so. 1551 01:16:04,300 --> 01:16:08,240 But it was quite an extraordinary period. 1552 01:16:08,240 --> 01:16:10,820 And so again, it's this kind of power 1553 01:16:10,820 --> 01:16:14,220 of what has more power at a different moment 1554 01:16:14,220 --> 01:16:15,520 than another moment? 1555 01:16:15,520 --> 01:16:17,690 And so it's also, again, a kind of balance 1556 01:16:17,690 --> 01:16:23,220 between how social media is influential, or how media is, 1557 01:16:23,220 --> 01:16:25,745 or how being on the ground is. 1558 01:16:25,745 --> 01:16:27,120 And there was a very clear moment 1559 01:16:27,120 --> 01:16:29,600 where people said, you know, it doesn't do anything 1560 01:16:29,600 --> 01:16:31,351 to go to Tahrir anymore. 1561 01:16:31,351 --> 01:16:32,350 We have to go back home. 1562 01:16:32,350 --> 01:16:35,180 And we have to do the real work. 1563 01:16:35,180 --> 01:16:39,010 And the real work is change very fundamental aspects and values 1564 01:16:39,010 --> 01:16:40,020 within society. 1565 01:16:40,020 --> 01:16:43,200 It's not going to the street and rebelling. 1566 01:16:43,200 --> 01:16:46,520 Rebelling is important, but then you have to follow up. 1567 01:16:46,520 --> 01:16:48,990 And follow up means you have to educate people. 1568 01:16:48,990 --> 01:16:50,230 You have to work with them. 1569 01:16:50,230 --> 01:16:52,980 You have to get involved in your communities. 1570 01:16:52,980 --> 01:16:57,270 You have to act directly with people that are your neighbors. 1571 01:16:57,270 --> 01:16:59,120 And that can take 10 years, 20 years. 1572 01:16:59,120 --> 01:17:01,810 And not everybody wants to spend that kind of time doing that. 1573 01:17:01,810 --> 01:17:03,930 So that's, again, another subject. 1574 01:17:03,930 --> 01:17:06,406 But that's the kind of landscape. 1575 01:17:06,406 --> 01:17:08,530 PROFESSOR: I want to make sure we have time to talk 1576 01:17:08,530 --> 01:17:10,150 about your current work. 1577 01:17:10,150 --> 01:17:15,386 So we can go more quickly on the next questions. 1578 01:17:15,386 --> 01:17:19,140 In the book we had to read, Digital Rebellion, 1579 01:17:19,140 --> 01:17:20,850 there's the one problematic aspect 1580 01:17:20,850 --> 01:17:23,660 of the contemporary activism that was underlined. 1581 01:17:23,660 --> 01:17:26,060 It is the difficulty to connect with local struggle, 1582 01:17:26,060 --> 01:17:28,690 local communities, people from the working class. 1583 01:17:28,690 --> 01:17:30,200 So we said this before. 1584 01:17:30,200 --> 01:17:32,660 But also, the fact that these movements 1585 01:17:32,660 --> 01:17:36,480 are using the new technologies and internet so much that it 1586 01:17:36,480 --> 01:17:40,730 tends to favor the leadership of white, male, college-educated 1587 01:17:40,730 --> 01:17:44,650 activists at the expense of homeless people, 1588 01:17:44,650 --> 01:17:48,450 unemployed, women, people of color, indigenous. 1589 01:17:48,450 --> 01:17:49,840 was it also the case in Egypt? 1590 01:17:49,840 --> 01:17:53,530 How diversified was the crowd on Tahrir Square? 1591 01:17:53,530 --> 01:17:57,010 Were there, like, people from very different background, 1592 01:17:57,010 --> 01:17:57,860 women and men? 1593 01:17:57,860 --> 01:18:03,310 Or they were more favoring men? 1594 01:18:03,310 --> 01:18:06,110 LARA BALADI: So in the 18 days, it was very different. 1595 01:18:06,110 --> 01:18:09,100 Everybody remembers the 18 days as something unique, 1596 01:18:09,100 --> 01:18:10,910 and then there's the rest. 1597 01:18:10,910 --> 01:18:12,640 But during the 18 days, of course, 1598 01:18:12,640 --> 01:18:18,160 it was mainly occupied by all these young people 1599 01:18:18,160 --> 01:18:21,850 that were on Facebook and did this Khaled Saeed page, and so 1600 01:18:21,850 --> 01:18:25,200 on, and who were coming out of universities, and so on. 1601 01:18:25,200 --> 01:18:28,970 But there was also a majority of population 1602 01:18:28,970 --> 01:18:38,780 from every kind of-- every city, every area of Cairo, from Alex. 1603 01:18:38,780 --> 01:18:43,890 People were very diverse, people who were in the square. 1604 01:18:43,890 --> 01:18:47,740 But there was a kind of attitude that was very particular 1605 01:18:47,740 --> 01:18:48,850 during those 18 days. 1606 01:18:48,850 --> 01:18:51,455 And again, I think it has to do with the clarity of who 1607 01:18:51,455 --> 01:18:53,140 you're fighting. 1608 01:18:53,140 --> 01:18:56,175 And so nobody complained of sexual harassment 1609 01:18:56,175 --> 01:18:59,230 in those 18 days. 1610 01:18:59,230 --> 01:19:00,740 Although I think I'm sure there was. 1611 01:19:00,740 --> 01:19:03,510 But I mean, it wasn't like-- there 1612 01:19:03,510 --> 01:19:05,940 was something that held people together, 1613 01:19:05,940 --> 01:19:10,070 because it was so dramatic. 1614 01:19:10,070 --> 01:19:15,550 And it was so-- we didn't know what's going to happen. 1615 01:19:15,550 --> 01:19:18,730 And we knew that if this fails, we'll all end up in jail. 1616 01:19:18,730 --> 01:19:20,020 So it couldn't fail. 1617 01:19:20,020 --> 01:19:20,910 It's too late. 1618 01:19:20,910 --> 01:19:22,355 We've gone already too far. 1619 01:19:22,355 --> 01:19:24,360 And actually, everybody is in jail now. 1620 01:19:24,360 --> 01:19:26,020 Most of the people who were really, 1621 01:19:26,020 --> 01:19:29,560 really at the front of-- like obvious activists 1622 01:19:29,560 --> 01:19:33,480 are, for a lot of them, either in jail, or not even. 1623 01:19:33,480 --> 01:19:36,970 There's thousands of people that have been arrested. 1624 01:19:36,970 --> 01:19:38,470 And the others have left the country 1625 01:19:38,470 --> 01:19:40,428 because they've been threatened to be arrested. 1626 01:19:40,428 --> 01:19:48,452 So you have a real escape of intellect 1627 01:19:48,452 --> 01:19:51,550 as it happens in those situations. 1628 01:19:51,550 --> 01:19:56,690 But the general sense is that, in the 18 days, 1629 01:19:56,690 --> 01:19:59,850 you have very clear objective. 1630 01:19:59,850 --> 01:20:04,350 And everybody's together towards that objective. 1631 01:20:04,350 --> 01:20:06,480 So nobody hurts anybody. 1632 01:20:06,480 --> 01:20:10,300 And time hasn't come yet to divide people. 1633 01:20:10,300 --> 01:20:12,470 So it's much later, after Mubarak is toppled, 1634 01:20:12,470 --> 01:20:14,910 that suddenly everybody is like, OK, 1635 01:20:14,910 --> 01:20:16,900 so who's going to be in power now? 1636 01:20:16,900 --> 01:20:18,595 So I want the power. 1637 01:20:18,595 --> 01:20:19,496 No, I want the power. 1638 01:20:19,496 --> 01:20:20,371 No, I want the power. 1639 01:20:20,371 --> 01:20:24,030 So there's this kind of-- now society gets divided. 1640 01:20:24,030 --> 01:20:26,770 And people remove their masks. 1641 01:20:26,770 --> 01:20:29,690 30 years, maybe actually 60 years, 1642 01:20:29,690 --> 01:20:34,070 where the guy who sells the tomatoes downstairs, 1643 01:20:34,070 --> 01:20:38,017 or the man who you buy your bread from-- you 1644 01:20:38,017 --> 01:20:39,100 don't know what he thinks. 1645 01:20:39,100 --> 01:20:40,350 You don't know who he is. 1646 01:20:40,350 --> 01:20:43,020 You know he's Muslim, or you know he's maybe a little bit 1647 01:20:43,020 --> 01:20:43,940 conservative. 1648 01:20:43,940 --> 01:20:46,905 But you're not sure-- you don't care, even, what he is. 1649 01:20:46,905 --> 01:20:48,280 I mean, personally, I don't care. 1650 01:20:48,280 --> 01:20:53,860 But suddenly, after the 18 days, I know this guy is a Salafi. 1651 01:20:53,860 --> 01:20:56,520 And then this guy is a Muslim Brotherhood. 1652 01:20:56,520 --> 01:20:59,530 This guy is against the Sadat. 1653 01:20:59,530 --> 01:21:01,941 I mean, everybody becomes who they really are. 1654 01:21:01,941 --> 01:21:04,190 And they're not afraid of showing who they really are. 1655 01:21:04,190 --> 01:21:06,690 So the beards grew. 1656 01:21:06,690 --> 01:21:10,240 Also, the young people like you started to have beards. 1657 01:21:10,240 --> 01:21:12,620 And I was, like, why is everybody growing a beard? 1658 01:21:12,620 --> 01:21:14,730 And I started asking everybody, like, OK, I 1659 01:21:14,730 --> 01:21:17,470 get it that Muslim Brotherhood will have their beards, 1660 01:21:17,470 --> 01:21:20,190 because they've been arrested for the last 30 years 1661 01:21:20,190 --> 01:21:23,380 and they've been in jail for the last 30 years. 1662 01:21:23,380 --> 01:21:25,650 So, but why you, my friend, why-- 1663 01:21:25,650 --> 01:21:27,400 I know you are not the Brotherhood, so why 1664 01:21:27,400 --> 01:21:29,110 are you growing your beard? 1665 01:21:29,110 --> 01:21:32,150 What's up with this bloody fashion? 1666 01:21:32,150 --> 01:21:34,570 And they're like, well, when you're young, 1667 01:21:34,570 --> 01:21:38,140 in your early 20s, 30s, the police 1668 01:21:38,140 --> 01:21:40,270 arrest you systematically if you're a man 1669 01:21:40,270 --> 01:21:44,270 and you have a little bit of a beard. 1670 01:21:44,270 --> 01:21:47,100 So actually every young guy in the street 1671 01:21:47,100 --> 01:21:49,310 let their beards grow, because finally, they 1672 01:21:49,310 --> 01:21:53,780 were not harassed by the police for being maybe 1673 01:21:53,780 --> 01:21:55,770 a Brotherhood or maybe not. 1674 01:21:55,770 --> 01:21:59,090 So it's really interesting to watch this happen. 1675 01:21:59,090 --> 01:22:02,620 And of course, when the military came back 1676 01:22:02,620 --> 01:22:05,190 after the Brotherhood took power and so on, 1677 01:22:05,190 --> 01:22:06,840 it was this joke on Facebook, which 1678 01:22:06,840 --> 01:22:10,940 was the Bic-- the company Bic that sells razors-- 1679 01:22:10,940 --> 01:22:12,190 is going to make a fortune. 1680 01:22:12,190 --> 01:22:14,520 Because everybody's going to have to shave again, 1681 01:22:14,520 --> 01:22:15,840 which is what happened. 1682 01:22:15,840 --> 01:22:17,350 Nobody has a beard now. 1683 01:22:17,350 --> 01:22:19,100 You don't want to have a beard now. 1684 01:22:19,100 --> 01:22:22,097 It's not a good place for that. 1685 01:22:22,097 --> 01:22:24,680 PROFESSOR: I want to talk a bit about the role of social media 1686 01:22:24,680 --> 01:22:26,420 as a emotional conduit. 1687 01:22:26,420 --> 01:22:28,577 I think you had a video about that somewhere. 1688 01:22:31,230 --> 01:22:34,850 So it's clear that social media cannot be reduced to a purely 1689 01:22:34,850 --> 01:22:37,720 instrumental tool for organization and tactical 1690 01:22:37,720 --> 01:22:38,970 coordination. 1691 01:22:38,970 --> 01:22:41,900 It also participates, as Gerbaudo says in his text, 1692 01:22:41,900 --> 01:22:45,350 to assemble a construction of a collective identity, a sense 1693 01:22:45,350 --> 01:22:47,570 of togetherness, as you said earlier, 1694 01:22:47,570 --> 01:22:51,600 among activists, physical occupiers, and internet users. 1695 01:22:51,600 --> 01:22:55,350 And this is kind of clear with the page 1696 01:22:55,350 --> 01:22:59,310 of "We are all Khaled Saeed", but also 1697 01:22:59,310 --> 01:23:03,640 with-- if I can find it-- the Tumblr page blood 1698 01:23:03,640 --> 01:23:10,360 page of Occupy Movement that was kind of collecting 1699 01:23:10,360 --> 01:23:14,650 different testimonies of people who consider themselves 1700 01:23:14,650 --> 01:23:18,850 as the 90%, 99%, kind of as a rallying 1701 01:23:18,850 --> 01:23:22,220 point for the construction of inclusive popular identity. 1702 01:23:22,220 --> 01:23:24,330 And this moment was really appealing to everybody. 1703 01:23:27,690 --> 01:23:31,860 So do you think that social networks 1704 01:23:31,860 --> 01:23:34,620 serve as an emotional conduit that condense sentiment 1705 01:23:34,620 --> 01:23:39,220 of indignation, anger, pride, victimhood? 1706 01:23:39,220 --> 01:23:41,810 The other example that the Facebook page, 1707 01:23:41,810 --> 01:23:43,950 "We are all Khaled Saeed," [INAUDIBLE] 1708 01:23:43,950 --> 01:23:48,800 maybe show about that? 1709 01:23:48,800 --> 01:23:51,490 This one-- oh, we show it already. 1710 01:23:51,490 --> 01:23:53,542 LARA BALADI: Yeah, that was with the army. 1711 01:23:53,542 --> 01:23:55,560 PROFESSOR: But did you feel that in the end, 1712 01:23:55,560 --> 01:23:58,730 the Facebook page was really canalizing 1713 01:23:58,730 --> 01:24:00,479 feelings and generating people? 1714 01:24:00,479 --> 01:24:02,770 LARA BALADI: I mean, we are in a world that is not just 1715 01:24:02,770 --> 01:24:05,120 a generation of 25 years old. 1716 01:24:05,120 --> 01:24:08,650 But we're in a world where we all use internet, 1717 01:24:08,650 --> 01:24:10,400 and we all use our computers. 1718 01:24:10,400 --> 01:24:14,640 We all use social media-- I mean, the majority of people 1719 01:24:14,640 --> 01:24:15,140 does. 1720 01:24:19,010 --> 01:24:23,020 And we are also at a time when after-- again, I 1721 01:24:23,020 --> 01:24:26,020 repeat-- after 30 or maybe 60 years, 1722 01:24:26,020 --> 01:24:30,680 even, of a military regime, you have a little bracket of time 1723 01:24:30,680 --> 01:24:33,220 where everybody's allowed to talk. 1724 01:24:33,220 --> 01:24:39,470 And so imagine the avalanche of information that we get. 1725 01:24:39,470 --> 01:24:44,520 So from not being able to do anything-- talk, 1726 01:24:44,520 --> 01:24:47,190 take photos in the streets without being harassed 1727 01:24:47,190 --> 01:24:50,990 by some kind of policeman that is in civil clothes-- 1728 01:24:50,990 --> 01:24:53,843 or by a sign that says "Do not take photos here 1729 01:24:53,843 --> 01:24:55,676 because it's a military base," because Egypt 1730 01:24:55,676 --> 01:24:57,190 is owned by the military. 1731 01:24:57,190 --> 01:25:01,270 So every street is military base, really. 1732 01:25:01,270 --> 01:25:05,740 You have from that situation, you have a complete shift 1733 01:25:05,740 --> 01:25:10,250 overnight to everybody can say who they are. 1734 01:25:10,250 --> 01:25:12,050 Everybody can say what they think. 1735 01:25:12,050 --> 01:25:13,870 And so everybody does. 1736 01:25:13,870 --> 01:25:16,120 And in fact, it was pretty amazing and magical 1737 01:25:16,120 --> 01:25:17,920 and very creative. 1738 01:25:17,920 --> 01:25:19,750 It was a very, very creative period 1739 01:25:19,750 --> 01:25:24,270 where people were allowed to be the best of themselves. 1740 01:25:24,270 --> 01:25:25,450 And they were. 1741 01:25:25,450 --> 01:25:29,700 And so the random citizen became the biggest artist. 1742 01:25:29,700 --> 01:25:31,900 Suddenly, overnight you had this amazing video, 1743 01:25:31,900 --> 01:25:35,360 very funny or maybe very powerful or very emotional 1744 01:25:35,360 --> 01:25:39,950 or very poignant that would be posted on the net or on Twitter 1745 01:25:39,950 --> 01:25:43,970 or whatever, and would communicate something. 1746 01:25:43,970 --> 01:25:49,230 And people, again, created not just with a hashtag or not just 1747 01:25:49,230 --> 01:25:52,370 with a Facebook page, but they created communities. 1748 01:25:52,370 --> 01:25:55,250 And so you have thousands of websites 1749 01:25:55,250 --> 01:25:59,590 that were born from the merging of people to collect. 1750 01:25:59,590 --> 01:26:03,120 So for example, you have-- this can kind of 1751 01:26:03,120 --> 01:26:04,510 go into the work I'm doing now. 1752 01:26:04,510 --> 01:26:08,490 But you had suddenly a group that organized 1753 01:26:08,490 --> 01:26:12,180 to collect all the papers, transcripts, messages 1754 01:26:12,180 --> 01:26:14,330 that were circulating every day in Tahrir, 1755 01:26:14,330 --> 01:26:15,950 according to what was happening. 1756 01:26:15,950 --> 01:26:19,050 And this is, in itself, an extraordinary amount 1757 01:26:19,050 --> 01:26:20,075 of documents. 1758 01:26:20,075 --> 01:26:21,700 And so they would take these documents, 1759 01:26:21,700 --> 01:26:24,070 and scan them, and put them on the net. 1760 01:26:24,070 --> 01:26:27,830 And so this is a website called TahrirDocuments 1761 01:26:27,830 --> 01:26:29,730 where you can go and you can see, 1762 01:26:29,730 --> 01:26:32,230 according to the date, what was being circulated, 1763 01:26:32,230 --> 01:26:35,310 what was available in the square, what people were giving 1764 01:26:35,310 --> 01:26:36,524 each other, handing out. 1765 01:26:39,140 --> 01:26:41,940 So you have a great community-- a number 1766 01:26:41,940 --> 01:26:45,990 of communities that have archived different aspects 1767 01:26:45,990 --> 01:26:47,420 of the revolution. 1768 01:26:47,420 --> 01:26:50,290 You have people who have created, 1769 01:26:50,290 --> 01:26:52,980 of course a lot of a music came out of the revolution. 1770 01:26:52,980 --> 01:26:55,910 This was one of the biggest outcome 1771 01:26:55,910 --> 01:26:57,230 of the first couple of months. 1772 01:26:59,890 --> 01:27:04,065 You really had a huge amount of creativity. 1773 01:27:04,065 --> 01:27:07,220 And in a way, this is what I was telling you-- it's kind 1774 01:27:07,220 --> 01:27:15,320 of the difference between activists, artists, activism, 1775 01:27:15,320 --> 01:27:20,060 also people doing art, but in an activist kind of way, 1776 01:27:20,060 --> 01:27:23,540 and not necessarily in a kind of contemporary art kind of way. 1777 01:27:23,540 --> 01:27:27,900 So it's more something that is using creativity as a tool, 1778 01:27:27,900 --> 01:27:31,070 but as a tool to fight back, to answer 1779 01:27:31,070 --> 01:27:32,440 something that is happening. 1780 01:27:32,440 --> 01:27:36,250 So there was a whole lot of expression 1781 01:27:36,250 --> 01:27:39,090 and ways of expressing oneself that 1782 01:27:39,090 --> 01:27:43,045 was born from the first few months of the revolution. 1783 01:27:43,045 --> 01:27:44,920 I'm not sure I'm answering you, but I think-- 1784 01:27:44,920 --> 01:27:46,336 PROFESSOR: Yeah, just I don't want 1785 01:27:46,336 --> 01:27:48,050 to go too far on what we're going 1786 01:27:48,050 --> 01:27:50,560 to talk later about your work. 1787 01:27:50,560 --> 01:27:53,290 So let me just ask you this question 1788 01:27:53,290 --> 01:27:59,430 about the logic of Orientalism of the Cyber Left movement. 1789 01:27:59,430 --> 01:28:02,800 Because all these new activist movements, 1790 01:28:02,800 --> 01:28:05,590 like Occupy, Anonymous, Arab Spring 1791 01:28:05,590 --> 01:28:10,100 and even Indymedia before, they claim to be a movement. 1792 01:28:10,100 --> 01:28:13,760 They present himself as a direct [INAUDIBLE] democracy 1793 01:28:13,760 --> 01:28:16,820 with a preference for horizontal structure instead of vertical. 1794 01:28:16,820 --> 01:28:19,560 So basically, they say they don't have any leaders. 1795 01:28:19,560 --> 01:28:21,620 They don't do elections. 1796 01:28:21,620 --> 01:28:24,150 Everybody's a leader, kind of. 1797 01:28:24,150 --> 01:28:27,150 And then the authors of the text that we 1798 01:28:27,150 --> 01:28:29,720 had to read for today-- they claim that these movements were 1799 01:28:29,720 --> 01:28:34,170 not as leaderless-- as flat-- as they claim. 1800 01:28:34,170 --> 01:28:39,180 And I'm curious to know if it's the same feeling that you have. 1801 01:28:39,180 --> 01:28:41,500 Gerbaudo used the concept of choreographer 1802 01:28:41,500 --> 01:28:44,730 to describe the kind of soft form of leadership 1803 01:28:44,730 --> 01:28:48,600 that took place during these movements-- people who 1804 01:28:48,600 --> 01:28:53,580 kind of are Facebook admins, Tweets or bloggers, who 1805 01:28:53,580 --> 01:28:58,450 set this stage but without being in the forefront, people who 1806 01:28:58,450 --> 01:29:05,290 orchestrate the, for example, the Occupy Wall Street 1807 01:29:05,290 --> 01:29:09,310 advertising campaign that was really carefully organized. 1808 01:29:09,310 --> 01:29:13,260 So you see that there are some brains emerging 1809 01:29:13,260 --> 01:29:14,305 in these movements. 1810 01:29:17,060 --> 01:29:20,580 Do you have any example of soft leaders 1811 01:29:20,580 --> 01:29:23,750 that were organizing the stage? 1812 01:29:23,750 --> 01:29:27,650 I know that there were some bloggers that were maybe having 1813 01:29:27,650 --> 01:29:30,160 a bigger influence. 1814 01:29:30,160 --> 01:29:34,430 LARA BALADI: I mean, there's a whole culture of bloggers that 1815 01:29:34,430 --> 01:29:36,740 was born in the Middle East, I think 1816 01:29:36,740 --> 01:29:39,730 very much after 2006 war in Lebanon 1817 01:29:39,730 --> 01:29:44,120 and the influence of how people used internet at the time. 1818 01:29:44,120 --> 01:29:47,270 And so they created a kind of community across the region, 1819 01:29:47,270 --> 01:29:48,720 not just in Egypt. 1820 01:29:48,720 --> 01:29:54,730 And so of course, there's some very influential people online. 1821 01:29:54,730 --> 01:29:58,050 Hamalawi is one of them, because he 1822 01:29:58,050 --> 01:30:04,630 is the one who-- he's a [INAUDIBLE] activist 1823 01:30:04,630 --> 01:30:06,450 who is also a photographer. 1824 01:30:06,450 --> 01:30:13,210 And he documented 6 of April, 2008 Mahala demonstrations 1825 01:30:13,210 --> 01:30:15,620 that I was describing earlier, which 1826 01:30:15,620 --> 01:30:18,430 then led to the group that became 1827 01:30:18,430 --> 01:30:22,790 opposing the power-- the 6 of April movement. 1828 01:30:22,790 --> 01:30:26,630 So Hamalawi, for example, was documenting already 1829 01:30:26,630 --> 01:30:28,420 in 2008 those movements. 1830 01:30:28,420 --> 01:30:31,250 Because he works a lot with workers in Egypt. 1831 01:30:31,250 --> 01:30:37,170 And he blogged already three years before the revolution 1832 01:30:37,170 --> 01:30:42,180 that so revolution will be Flickr-ized. 1833 01:30:42,180 --> 01:30:47,420 And his statement was that if we take photos, 1834 01:30:47,420 --> 01:30:53,970 and if we manage to document what is actually happening, 1835 01:30:53,970 --> 01:30:57,830 and posting it, and making people see what is happening, 1836 01:30:57,830 --> 01:31:02,170 then there will be a movement that will come out of it. 1837 01:31:02,170 --> 01:31:05,470 And again, this was countering the media propaganda, which was 1838 01:31:05,470 --> 01:31:07,770 not showing any of this stuff. 1839 01:31:07,770 --> 01:31:10,450 We all knew it, but not really, but kind of. 1840 01:31:10,450 --> 01:31:14,980 So of course, there was very important people who 1841 01:31:14,980 --> 01:31:16,250 were doing the work already. 1842 01:31:16,250 --> 01:31:19,860 It's not like it happened overnight. 1843 01:31:19,860 --> 01:31:22,320 But they were not-- they were activists. 1844 01:31:22,320 --> 01:31:24,790 They were not trying to take power. 1845 01:31:24,790 --> 01:31:27,712 And a lot of them, they didn't know how to take power. 1846 01:31:27,712 --> 01:31:28,991 And it's not what they do. 1847 01:31:28,991 --> 01:31:30,990 PROFESSOR: Some of them became micro-celebrities 1848 01:31:30,990 --> 01:31:32,415 against their own will, right? 1849 01:31:32,415 --> 01:31:36,560 LARA BALADI: Yeah, I mean, they were happy to be. 1850 01:31:36,560 --> 01:31:38,363 PROFESSOR: They tried to be modest. 1851 01:31:38,363 --> 01:31:40,654 LARA BALADI: No one refuses to be a celebrity, I think. 1852 01:31:40,654 --> 01:31:42,910 It's kind of a human thing. 1853 01:31:42,910 --> 01:31:47,450 But these people are not-- because they're activists, 1854 01:31:47,450 --> 01:31:48,980 they are not politicians. 1855 01:31:48,980 --> 01:31:50,700 It's not because you in the street 1856 01:31:50,700 --> 01:31:52,520 that you're a revolutionary. 1857 01:31:52,520 --> 01:31:55,260 It's not because you are an activist 1858 01:31:55,260 --> 01:31:57,300 that you understand politics. 1859 01:31:57,300 --> 01:32:00,680 It's not because you are an artist that you necessarily 1860 01:32:00,680 --> 01:32:01,380 do good art. 1861 01:32:01,380 --> 01:32:04,945 So these things are not simple. 1862 01:32:04,945 --> 01:32:07,020 And it's great to have a movement. 1863 01:32:07,020 --> 01:32:13,640 But where it fails is that there is no handing over that moment 1864 01:32:13,640 --> 01:32:17,706 that we have a little bit of power, but it's very fragile. 1865 01:32:17,706 --> 01:32:25,250 And we let go of that very fragile shift that can happen. 1866 01:32:25,250 --> 01:32:29,010 And instead of giving the lead to someone 1867 01:32:29,010 --> 01:32:31,520 who actually understands politics, and is 1868 01:32:31,520 --> 01:32:36,360 able to take over the role of a part in a political party that 1869 01:32:36,360 --> 01:32:39,700 could hold together a country like Egypt that has 90 1870 01:32:39,700 --> 01:32:41,540 million people, I mean, insane. 1871 01:32:44,150 --> 01:32:49,185 Instead of that, you watch people disagreeing and ego 1872 01:32:49,185 --> 01:32:51,020 fighting. 1873 01:32:51,020 --> 01:32:56,500 And something very important is that the nature 1874 01:32:56,500 --> 01:33:01,120 of a revolution, and the nature of dictatorship-- so Egypt 1875 01:33:01,120 --> 01:33:07,600 or anywhere in the world-- a dictatorship by nature 1876 01:33:07,600 --> 01:33:12,660 is to dictate to eliminate anybody opposing them. 1877 01:33:12,660 --> 01:33:15,910 So there is no actual opposing power 1878 01:33:15,910 --> 01:33:17,970 in place during a dictatorship. 1879 01:33:17,970 --> 01:33:20,610 And that was true during Mubarak regime. 1880 01:33:20,610 --> 01:33:24,300 So there was a political party called the Kefaya. 1881 01:33:24,300 --> 01:33:26,440 Kefaya means enough. 1882 01:33:26,440 --> 01:33:30,550 And they were really fighting almost alone 1883 01:33:30,550 --> 01:33:33,400 and always being put in jail and out, and put in jail and out. 1884 01:33:33,400 --> 01:33:35,944 And they were pretty upset, because no one really 1885 01:33:35,944 --> 01:33:37,860 talked about them when the revolution started, 1886 01:33:37,860 --> 01:33:39,651 but they were the only ones really fighting 1887 01:33:39,651 --> 01:33:42,990 the regime for the seven years that preceded the revolution. 1888 01:33:42,990 --> 01:33:45,130 And then you had the 6 of April movement, 1889 01:33:45,130 --> 01:33:47,620 which was relatively new-- three years-- 1890 01:33:47,620 --> 01:33:50,310 but still not so public. 1891 01:33:50,310 --> 01:33:55,020 And they were preparing a revolution for September 2011, 1892 01:33:55,020 --> 01:33:59,740 because they had gone to, I think, the Republic of Czech 1893 01:33:59,740 --> 01:34:03,380 and been trained in different parts of the world 1894 01:34:03,380 --> 01:34:07,970 where there had been peaceful revolutions, that had actually 1895 01:34:07,970 --> 01:34:09,830 succeeded. 1896 01:34:09,830 --> 01:34:14,950 But that was a plan just before the next election 1897 01:34:14,950 --> 01:34:18,020 where Mubarak was going to put his son in power. 1898 01:34:18,020 --> 01:34:22,110 So when this happened, there was no plan. 1899 01:34:22,110 --> 01:34:25,070 We didn't go to the streets saying, we want the revolution. 1900 01:34:25,070 --> 01:34:28,060 There was no plan to hand the power over, 1901 01:34:28,060 --> 01:34:31,610 to have somebody ready to take power if that would work. 1902 01:34:31,610 --> 01:34:32,149 So-- 1903 01:34:32,149 --> 01:34:33,440 PROFESSOR: Would you say that-- 1904 01:34:33,440 --> 01:34:35,231 LARA BALADI: That's where the gap sort of-- 1905 01:34:35,231 --> 01:34:38,300 PROFESSOR: Yeah, because the authors that we read, 1906 01:34:38,300 --> 01:34:42,390 they kind of argue that these leaderless movements, 1907 01:34:42,390 --> 01:34:45,410 they don't allow to make proactive decisions, 1908 01:34:45,410 --> 01:34:48,940 build long-term powerful organization. 1909 01:34:48,940 --> 01:34:52,730 And not investing in leadership will eventually 1910 01:34:52,730 --> 01:34:56,360 lead to the dismantle of these movements. 1911 01:34:56,360 --> 01:34:57,810 LARA BALADI: Yes, that happened. 1912 01:34:57,810 --> 01:35:00,450 PROFESSOR: You think the revolution would have benefited 1913 01:35:00,450 --> 01:35:03,040 from having stronger leaders to take responsibility 1914 01:35:03,040 --> 01:35:05,979 for some failure or some-- 1915 01:35:05,979 --> 01:35:07,520 LARA BALADI: Yes, of course it would. 1916 01:35:07,520 --> 01:35:10,540 But the problem was that there was nobody. 1917 01:35:10,540 --> 01:35:14,890 And everybody who tried was rejected by everybody else 1918 01:35:14,890 --> 01:35:15,960 for many reasons. 1919 01:35:15,960 --> 01:35:18,110 So even Baradei, who came back to Egypt 1920 01:35:18,110 --> 01:35:22,870 three years before Mubarak left, was not 1921 01:35:22,870 --> 01:35:24,820 liked by the Egyptian population, 1922 01:35:24,820 --> 01:35:26,630 because he's lived 20 years abroad. 1923 01:35:26,630 --> 01:35:29,110 And also for a very good reason, which is 1924 01:35:29,110 --> 01:35:33,880 he was one of the actors that had influenced the Gulf 1925 01:35:33,880 --> 01:35:39,380 War, the Iraq War in 2003 by being the one who was appointed 1926 01:35:39,380 --> 01:35:43,040 to give the answer on whether or not there 1927 01:35:43,040 --> 01:35:45,600 was nuclear weapons in Iraq. 1928 01:35:45,600 --> 01:35:47,800 And he said yes. 1929 01:35:47,800 --> 01:35:49,330 We never found any. 1930 01:35:49,330 --> 01:35:51,460 But you know, what the consequences of that 1931 01:35:51,460 --> 01:35:52,580 is terrible. 1932 01:35:52,580 --> 01:35:54,460 And so of course people don't forget that. 1933 01:35:54,460 --> 01:35:56,028 So when he came and said, hello, I'm 1934 01:35:56,028 --> 01:35:57,650 going to be the next president, of course everybody 1935 01:35:57,650 --> 01:35:58,422 said excuse me? 1936 01:35:58,422 --> 01:36:01,039 Who are you? 1937 01:36:01,039 --> 01:36:02,455 So that was the case for everybody 1938 01:36:02,455 --> 01:36:04,760 who presented themselves as a leader. 1939 01:36:04,760 --> 01:36:08,020 So even the Brotherhood, even everybody 1940 01:36:08,020 --> 01:36:13,690 who-- but who can be ready when there's a dictatorship that 1941 01:36:13,690 --> 01:36:16,470 does not-- that puts people in jail if they say, 1942 01:36:16,470 --> 01:36:19,805 I'm going to present myself at the next election. 1943 01:36:19,805 --> 01:36:21,430 Next thing you know is they're arrested 1944 01:36:21,430 --> 01:36:23,260 or they have to leave the country. 1945 01:36:23,260 --> 01:36:27,620 So that's the nature of dictatorship. 1946 01:36:27,620 --> 01:36:29,410 So you're surrounded by a wall. 1947 01:36:29,410 --> 01:36:30,931 You need to break the wall. 1948 01:36:30,931 --> 01:36:32,680 And you don't know what's behind the wall. 1949 01:36:32,680 --> 01:36:34,480 And you're not ready to go behind the wall. 1950 01:36:34,480 --> 01:36:35,450 But you have no other choice. 1951 01:36:35,450 --> 01:36:36,470 That's the first step. 1952 01:36:36,470 --> 01:36:38,590 You need to break that wall. 1953 01:36:38,590 --> 01:36:40,220 So we broke the wall. 1954 01:36:40,220 --> 01:36:44,560 We're back into another movement. 1955 01:36:44,560 --> 01:36:48,030 But now we know what's going on. 1956 01:36:48,030 --> 01:36:49,440 And now we know what's going on. 1957 01:36:49,440 --> 01:36:52,690 And things will not be the way they were. 1958 01:36:52,690 --> 01:36:53,850 It might take more time. 1959 01:36:53,850 --> 01:36:56,580 And it's a very different battle that will prepare itself. 1960 01:36:56,580 --> 01:37:01,660 But it's a necessity to go through these steps. 1961 01:37:01,660 --> 01:37:04,790 PROFESSOR: So we don't have much time left-- ideally, 1962 01:37:04,790 --> 01:37:07,052 10 minutes. 1963 01:37:07,052 --> 01:37:08,010 LARA BALADI: That's OK. 1964 01:37:08,010 --> 01:37:08,910 We talked. 1965 01:37:08,910 --> 01:37:11,222 Everybody had enough, I think. 1966 01:37:11,222 --> 01:37:13,680 PROFESSOR: No, but we want to talk about your current work, 1967 01:37:13,680 --> 01:37:14,930 because it's very interesting. 1968 01:37:14,930 --> 01:37:17,560 And the obsession of scholars for the role 1969 01:37:17,560 --> 01:37:19,940 played by Twitter and Facebook during the revolution kind 1970 01:37:19,940 --> 01:37:22,390 of eclipsed a very interesting conversation that we 1971 01:37:22,390 --> 01:37:25,400 can have about the role of traditional media 1972 01:37:25,400 --> 01:37:27,080 in the revolution. 1973 01:37:27,080 --> 01:37:30,834 And since you're the co-founder of a radio and a cinema, 1974 01:37:30,834 --> 01:37:32,750 during the revolution, I think you're the best 1975 01:37:32,750 --> 01:37:34,440 person to talk about this. 1976 01:37:34,440 --> 01:37:35,810 So can you talk a little-- 1977 01:37:35,810 --> 01:37:37,310 LARA BALADI: Just traditional media? 1978 01:37:37,310 --> 01:37:41,000 PROFESSOR: Yes, cinema and radio are traditional media 1979 01:37:41,000 --> 01:37:42,820 compared to digital media. 1980 01:37:42,820 --> 01:37:48,260 So can you talk briefly about these two initiatives 1981 01:37:48,260 --> 01:37:50,520 before we talk about your project [INAUDIBLE]? 1982 01:37:50,520 --> 01:37:51,270 LARA BALADI: Sure. 1983 01:37:53,770 --> 01:37:55,205 So again, I'm an artist. 1984 01:37:55,205 --> 01:37:59,300 And when all this started, I watch this amazing stuff 1985 01:37:59,300 --> 01:38:04,710 come out of nowhere by people producing music, films 1986 01:38:04,710 --> 01:38:07,970 and so on. 1987 01:38:07,970 --> 01:38:13,690 And I watched one video that really fascinated me, 1988 01:38:13,690 --> 01:38:17,320 which triggered this kind of interest 1989 01:38:17,320 --> 01:38:20,640 for what was happening every day. 1990 01:38:20,640 --> 01:38:26,450 What I was experiencing was resonating with events 1991 01:38:26,450 --> 01:38:28,290 that I remembered from my childhood-- 1992 01:38:28,290 --> 01:38:30,930 which I didn't live, but I remember watching on TV 1993 01:38:30,930 --> 01:38:32,810 and being very impressed by. 1994 01:38:32,810 --> 01:38:38,770 So that first video of a truck and somebody 1995 01:38:38,770 --> 01:38:43,200 standing in front of the police truck, the water cannon, 1996 01:38:43,200 --> 01:38:44,510 but not going anywhere. 1997 01:38:44,510 --> 01:38:46,040 He would just stay there. 1998 01:38:46,040 --> 01:38:50,000 And so the police goes backwards, which is incredible. 1999 01:38:50,000 --> 01:38:52,570 And it's one of the first videos of courage 2000 01:38:52,570 --> 01:38:56,680 that appears and viral on YouTube. 2001 01:38:56,680 --> 01:38:59,720 And it was posted on YouTube, and it 2002 01:38:59,720 --> 01:39:06,220 was called [ARABIC] Courage Video or something. 2003 01:39:06,220 --> 01:39:10,030 And so this connection with the history, 2004 01:39:10,030 --> 01:39:13,580 with another event from '89 in China 2005 01:39:13,580 --> 01:39:15,730 of-- if you remember this video, if you know 2006 01:39:15,730 --> 01:39:20,750 this video of this man standing in front of an Army tank 2007 01:39:20,750 --> 01:39:24,380 and not moving, and the whole world watching 2008 01:39:24,380 --> 01:39:28,130 20 tanks kind of going towards this man-- 2009 01:39:28,130 --> 01:39:31,860 triggered the need for me to see and understand 2010 01:39:31,860 --> 01:39:34,780 what's happening in relationship to history in the world, 2011 01:39:34,780 --> 01:39:39,230 not just to Egypt and Egyptian history. 2012 01:39:39,230 --> 01:39:44,030 And so I started collecting things, and archiving videos 2013 01:39:44,030 --> 01:39:48,550 and just learning, and collecting, and organizing, 2014 01:39:48,550 --> 01:39:49,760 and so on. 2015 01:39:49,760 --> 01:39:53,950 And one of the first things I did was-- I 2016 01:39:53,950 --> 01:39:55,460 didn't want to do any art work. 2017 01:39:55,460 --> 01:39:58,660 That was not the time for me to do any art work. 2018 01:39:58,660 --> 01:40:02,130 But in the square, I met a lot of people. 2019 01:40:02,130 --> 01:40:04,700 And with a friend of mine during the 18 days, 2020 01:40:04,700 --> 01:40:06,800 we wanted to do a free radio so that we 2021 01:40:06,800 --> 01:40:12,740 could connect ourselves. 2022 01:40:12,740 --> 01:40:15,070 And the 18 days ended. 2023 01:40:15,070 --> 01:40:17,890 Mubarak was toppled and so on, but we still 2024 01:40:17,890 --> 01:40:18,890 wanted to do the radio. 2025 01:40:18,890 --> 01:40:21,640 So suddenly, it was not just my friend and I. 2026 01:40:21,640 --> 01:40:24,570 It was actually this guy next to me wants to do the radio. 2027 01:40:24,570 --> 01:40:27,182 And then he knows this guy who also wants to work with him. 2028 01:40:27,182 --> 01:40:28,640 And then this person is doing this. 2029 01:40:28,640 --> 01:40:30,561 And it was very organic. 2030 01:40:30,561 --> 01:40:32,810 And before I knew it, we were a whole group of people. 2031 01:40:32,810 --> 01:40:34,950 And we created this radio. 2032 01:40:34,950 --> 01:40:40,390 So it was very spontaneous. 2033 01:40:40,390 --> 01:40:44,145 And it was a lot of-- there's one very funny show 2034 01:40:44,145 --> 01:40:49,000 of two characters making fun of politics. 2035 01:40:49,000 --> 01:40:51,340 And then there was a lot of music from the revolution. 2036 01:40:51,340 --> 01:40:56,950 So we were kind of a receptacle for all this music production 2037 01:40:56,950 --> 01:40:59,650 during that period. 2038 01:40:59,650 --> 01:41:06,090 Following that-- that's another image. 2039 01:41:06,090 --> 01:41:09,830 Following that, a few months later, 2040 01:41:09,830 --> 01:41:13,620 I realized that most people probably 2041 01:41:13,620 --> 01:41:16,570 hadn't seen all these animation videos 2042 01:41:16,570 --> 01:41:19,210 like the one I showed you, that most people weren't 2043 01:41:19,210 --> 01:41:22,300 on internet, that actually, not everybody had seen what really 2044 01:41:22,300 --> 01:41:24,030 happened in the 18 days. 2045 01:41:24,030 --> 01:41:27,150 And we were, again, doing a sit-in in Tahrir. 2046 01:41:27,150 --> 01:41:30,260 So I decided I have to use the archive 2047 01:41:30,260 --> 01:41:31,260 that I started building. 2048 01:41:31,260 --> 01:41:34,229 And I have to show this to people. 2049 01:41:34,229 --> 01:41:35,770 And there's a sit-in that's starting. 2050 01:41:35,770 --> 01:41:37,600 And I know it's going to take a long time. 2051 01:41:37,600 --> 01:41:39,837 And I'm not going to sit there in the square 2052 01:41:39,837 --> 01:41:40,670 and not do anything. 2053 01:41:40,670 --> 01:41:43,350 And actually, there's no images in the square. 2054 01:41:43,350 --> 01:41:45,140 So we need to focus on something. 2055 01:41:45,140 --> 01:41:46,880 People need to see something. 2056 01:41:46,880 --> 01:41:48,660 So I decided to make a cinema, but I 2057 01:41:48,660 --> 01:41:50,940 wasn't sure what and how-- all of this. 2058 01:41:50,940 --> 01:41:53,690 And then I'm on Twitter, and I see somebody saying, oh, we 2059 01:41:53,690 --> 01:41:54,790 should project films. 2060 01:41:54,790 --> 01:41:57,060 I was, like, oh, he wants to do that, too. 2061 01:41:57,060 --> 01:41:58,419 So I connected with him. 2062 01:41:58,419 --> 01:42:00,710 And then somebody else said, oh, you want to do cinema. 2063 01:42:00,710 --> 01:42:01,777 I know your work. 2064 01:42:01,777 --> 01:42:02,610 I've seen your work. 2065 01:42:02,610 --> 01:42:03,359 I don't know what. 2066 01:42:03,359 --> 01:42:04,693 Are you going to show your work? 2067 01:42:04,693 --> 01:42:06,692 I said, of course I'm not going to show my work. 2068 01:42:06,692 --> 01:42:08,520 This is like the middle of a revolution. 2069 01:42:08,520 --> 01:42:10,280 Who cares about seeing my work? 2070 01:42:10,280 --> 01:42:12,900 But let's get together and talk about it. 2071 01:42:12,900 --> 01:42:15,920 And so we created the cinema and the sit-in. 2072 01:42:15,920 --> 01:42:19,250 And every night, we projected material 2073 01:42:19,250 --> 01:42:22,820 that was circulating on the internet, 2074 01:42:22,820 --> 01:42:26,470 but that most probably, most people didn't see. 2075 01:42:26,470 --> 01:42:28,870 And it created a space for a platform 2076 01:42:28,870 --> 01:42:33,930 for debating the revolution, a platform for convening 2077 01:42:33,930 --> 01:42:35,330 and sharing the archive. 2078 01:42:35,330 --> 01:42:37,260 So people would come with their phone and say, 2079 01:42:37,260 --> 01:42:39,000 can you give me a copy of what you show? 2080 01:42:39,000 --> 01:42:43,080 Because I can show this in my area. 2081 01:42:43,080 --> 01:42:46,440 I can show this to the coffee next door, 2082 01:42:46,440 --> 01:42:48,580 project it in the street next to my house. 2083 01:42:48,580 --> 01:42:49,780 I can show it to my family. 2084 01:42:49,780 --> 01:42:51,410 I can bring to my village. 2085 01:42:51,410 --> 01:42:53,900 And I can give you what I filmed. 2086 01:42:53,900 --> 01:42:57,740 And so it was a way of exchanging material and kind 2087 01:42:57,740 --> 01:43:01,300 of disseminating, also, on the ground, footage 2088 01:43:01,300 --> 01:43:04,580 from the revolution that was countering the media 2089 01:43:04,580 --> 01:43:07,550 propaganda that was happening. 2090 01:43:07,550 --> 01:43:13,760 So these are some images of the crowds in the square watching 2091 01:43:13,760 --> 01:43:15,439 the footage. 2092 01:43:15,439 --> 01:43:16,980 PROFESSOR: For the last five minutes, 2093 01:43:16,980 --> 01:43:21,280 let's talk about your project on the archiving 2094 01:43:21,280 --> 01:43:24,310 the revolution, because it's also a concern that we 2095 01:43:24,310 --> 01:43:25,832 should have with digital media. 2096 01:43:25,832 --> 01:43:27,248 LARA BALADI: We even have popcorn. 2097 01:43:32,210 --> 01:43:34,580 Yeah, so these are the two projects 2098 01:43:34,580 --> 01:43:43,540 that I've done as the first sort of actions or outcome 2099 01:43:43,540 --> 01:43:47,270 of collecting material, and feeling like, 2100 01:43:47,270 --> 01:43:51,200 to make sense of all of this, because of the collage that you 2101 01:43:51,200 --> 01:43:53,970 saw originally, you can imagine how my head works. 2102 01:43:53,970 --> 01:43:55,400 And I have to have lots of stuff, 2103 01:43:55,400 --> 01:43:56,700 and make connections and all this. 2104 01:43:56,700 --> 01:43:58,074 So it doesn't happen immediately. 2105 01:43:58,074 --> 01:44:01,660 It takes a little bit of time to find these links. 2106 01:44:01,660 --> 01:44:03,010 And same thing here. 2107 01:44:03,010 --> 01:44:06,660 I just felt there's no conclusion to be made now. 2108 01:44:06,660 --> 01:44:08,770 But all these questions are popping 2109 01:44:08,770 --> 01:44:09,900 every minute in my head. 2110 01:44:09,900 --> 01:44:12,540 So my collection of archive was really 2111 01:44:12,540 --> 01:44:16,726 about keeping this for when I'll be able to think about it, 2112 01:44:16,726 --> 01:44:19,660 and when there will be a moment where things start 2113 01:44:19,660 --> 01:44:21,850 to kind of come down and I can make sense of it 2114 01:44:21,850 --> 01:44:26,000 and find a link that holds it all together-- if there is one. 2115 01:44:26,000 --> 01:44:28,200 I don't know. 2116 01:44:28,200 --> 01:44:33,720 And so now my project here is about looking 2117 01:44:33,720 --> 01:44:37,610 at that period of two, three years, 2118 01:44:37,610 --> 01:44:41,330 and trying to build a timeline of the revolution that 2119 01:44:41,330 --> 01:44:43,620 is interactive. 2120 01:44:43,620 --> 01:44:47,470 So this is an example of a very fantastic, beautiful, 2121 01:44:47,470 --> 01:44:50,440 visual timeline of the history of the world. 2122 01:44:50,440 --> 01:44:52,760 Which this part is about ancient Egypt, 2123 01:44:52,760 --> 01:44:55,090 as you see the Sphinx and the Pyramids. 2124 01:44:55,090 --> 01:44:57,090 And I find it really fascinating, 2125 01:44:57,090 --> 01:44:59,230 because it has color coding. 2126 01:44:59,230 --> 01:45:00,165 It has images. 2127 01:45:00,165 --> 01:45:01,820 It has text. 2128 01:45:01,820 --> 01:45:03,940 It has a sense of continuity. 2129 01:45:03,940 --> 01:45:05,320 It has layers. 2130 01:45:05,320 --> 01:45:07,180 So things happen in one country, but you 2131 01:45:07,180 --> 01:45:10,080 can start seeing also what was happening in parallel 2132 01:45:10,080 --> 01:45:13,640 to Egypt-- so the tsunami in Japan, bin Laden arrested 2133 01:45:13,640 --> 01:45:18,710 and killed, Occupy Wall Street, and all these resonating events 2134 01:45:18,710 --> 01:45:22,900 between Tahrir and other countries in the world. 2135 01:45:22,900 --> 01:45:25,590 And at the same time, being quite a personal view of it, 2136 01:45:25,590 --> 01:45:27,410 because it's a collection of elements 2137 01:45:27,410 --> 01:45:30,670 that I'm interested in because of the nature of the work 2138 01:45:30,670 --> 01:45:33,950 I do and the type of material I normally work with. 2139 01:45:33,950 --> 01:45:39,310 And so I actually focused my archive on, again, 2140 01:45:39,310 --> 01:45:41,200 that production-- that creative production 2141 01:45:41,200 --> 01:45:44,310 from the random citizen and what I call 2142 01:45:44,310 --> 01:45:48,480 the popular language of Tahrir. 2143 01:45:48,480 --> 01:45:54,520 So these are early sketches of my timeline made from a photo 2144 01:45:54,520 --> 01:45:57,060 that I took, videos that I collected, 2145 01:45:57,060 --> 01:46:00,280 et cetera, et cetera. 2146 01:46:00,280 --> 01:46:03,200 This is a detail. 2147 01:46:03,200 --> 01:46:07,550 And then this is, one of the graffitis 2148 01:46:07,550 --> 01:46:10,480 from Mohamed Mahmoud Street that's is 2149 01:46:10,480 --> 01:46:16,570 one of the areas that come out of Tahrir and where the street 2150 01:46:16,570 --> 01:46:19,820 graffiti artists of the revolution have, 2151 01:46:19,820 --> 01:46:22,680 over and over and over again, and overlaid 2152 01:46:22,680 --> 01:46:25,960 all these fantastic paintings as things happened-- 2153 01:46:25,960 --> 01:46:28,850 portraits of martyrs and so on. 2154 01:46:28,850 --> 01:46:31,710 And that huge, walled, continuous street 2155 01:46:31,710 --> 01:46:35,990 is so extraordinary, and constitutes a really 2156 01:46:35,990 --> 01:46:38,690 ongoing tableau vivant. 2157 01:46:38,690 --> 01:46:42,440 And that mix between that kind of art in the street 2158 01:46:42,440 --> 01:46:44,770 and that influence of that beautiful painting 2159 01:46:44,770 --> 01:46:48,345 and the social media production that we experience 2160 01:46:48,345 --> 01:46:51,070 is, for me, sort of missing something 2161 01:46:51,070 --> 01:46:52,950 that it needs to come together. 2162 01:46:52,950 --> 01:46:55,270 And so what I'm trying to do is a kind of painting 2163 01:46:55,270 --> 01:47:00,250 of the 21st century, but that is interactive so that you would 2164 01:47:00,250 --> 01:47:03,180 be immersed in as an audience, but also 2165 01:47:03,180 --> 01:47:06,450 be able to kind of talk to and look at in a way 2166 01:47:06,450 --> 01:47:08,320 that you would say, OK, I'm interested. 2167 01:47:08,320 --> 01:47:12,310 And your question is, what is the role 2168 01:47:12,310 --> 01:47:14,930 of the Army or the social media in the revolution? 2169 01:47:14,930 --> 01:47:17,410 And so you would only see-- suddenly, 2170 01:47:17,410 --> 01:47:20,420 the rest of the timeline would sort of disappear. 2171 01:47:20,420 --> 01:47:24,010 And what comes forward would be all the aspects 2172 01:47:24,010 --> 01:47:26,390 and all the moments in which social media is actually 2173 01:47:26,390 --> 01:47:31,380 mentioned in an article, or is in a hashtag of one 2174 01:47:31,380 --> 01:47:35,425 or another type of media that is being displayed. 2175 01:47:39,230 --> 01:47:42,535 PROFESSOR: Well I cannot wait to see it. 2176 01:47:42,535 --> 01:47:45,390 Seriously. 2177 01:47:45,390 --> 01:47:49,510 Is there questions specifically on the presentation? 2178 01:47:49,510 --> 01:47:52,930 Because we're going to have a discussion later on things that 2179 01:47:52,930 --> 01:47:54,110 you posted on the forum. 2180 01:47:54,110 --> 01:48:00,380 But is there any questions related to what we spoke about? 2181 01:48:00,380 --> 01:48:02,760 AUDIENCE: Yeah, there is kind of a place which 2182 01:48:02,760 --> 01:48:08,396 you said you built next to real military base or something 2183 01:48:08,396 --> 01:48:09,630 like that? 2184 01:48:09,630 --> 01:48:11,660 How did they let you do that? 2185 01:48:11,660 --> 01:48:13,690 LARA BALADI: So the military base 2186 01:48:13,690 --> 01:48:19,540 is a huge area that was a little bit elitist. 2187 01:48:19,540 --> 01:48:23,615 So poor people were not very welcomed. 2188 01:48:23,615 --> 01:48:29,680 And usually, they tended to be kind of kicked out. 2189 01:48:29,680 --> 01:48:35,850 In the middle of it is the Opera House, the Library of Music 2190 01:48:35,850 --> 01:48:39,190 and the Pavilion of Arts. 2191 01:48:39,190 --> 01:48:42,920 And all of this is managed by the government, 2192 01:48:42,920 --> 01:48:44,670 the Ministry of Culture. 2193 01:48:44,670 --> 01:48:50,460 But the area and that whole space belongs to the military. 2194 01:48:50,460 --> 01:48:54,270 And there's a military base just next to the opera. 2195 01:48:54,270 --> 01:48:56,800 So it's surrounded by security. 2196 01:48:56,800 --> 01:48:59,770 It's very well guarded and blah, blah, blah. 2197 01:48:59,770 --> 01:49:02,990 And one of the events is, funny enough, 2198 01:49:02,990 --> 01:49:06,070 Egypt has one of the oldest Bienniales of contemporary art. 2199 01:49:06,070 --> 01:49:07,793 So it's almost as old as the Venice 2200 01:49:07,793 --> 01:49:10,400 Bienniale that's very famous. 2201 01:49:10,400 --> 01:49:12,530 And so for 25 years, there's been 2202 01:49:12,530 --> 01:49:16,710 every two years this event, this art event, which is a disaster. 2203 01:49:16,710 --> 01:49:21,360 And it's like a horror show. 2204 01:49:21,360 --> 01:49:28,780 But that year, December 2008, was 2205 01:49:28,780 --> 01:49:30,540 one of the iterations of the Bienniale. 2206 01:49:30,540 --> 01:49:33,330 And for the first time in 25 years, 2207 01:49:33,330 --> 01:49:37,730 they changed the curators from the Minister of Culture 2208 01:49:37,730 --> 01:49:40,950 to two young men that they appointed 2209 01:49:40,950 --> 01:49:43,160 to be taking care of that event. 2210 01:49:43,160 --> 01:49:46,760 And they asked me to be part of the event, which was in itself 2211 01:49:46,760 --> 01:49:49,240 crazy, because I'm a woman. 2212 01:49:49,240 --> 01:49:54,200 I'm of Lebanese origin, so I'm not a pure Egyptian. 2213 01:49:54,200 --> 01:49:56,040 I'm Christian. 2214 01:49:56,040 --> 01:50:00,070 I'm from the art world that is more private, not 2215 01:50:00,070 --> 01:50:04,190 the government type artist, so all of the things 2216 01:50:04,190 --> 01:50:06,120 that normally they hate. 2217 01:50:06,120 --> 01:50:09,399 And so it was, like, wow, they're inviting me. 2218 01:50:09,399 --> 01:50:10,565 Of course I have to say yes. 2219 01:50:10,565 --> 01:50:13,490 But I also have to make a point of my participation. 2220 01:50:13,490 --> 01:50:16,885 I don't want to just show a collage or a piece that 2221 01:50:16,885 --> 01:50:19,065 is an interesting piece, but not in this context. 2222 01:50:19,065 --> 01:50:22,510 So I want to actually respond to where I'm going to show. 2223 01:50:22,510 --> 01:50:24,750 So I wanted to do a work in situ. 2224 01:50:24,750 --> 01:50:27,740 And so I talked to the curator. 2225 01:50:27,740 --> 01:50:30,330 And I told him that's my idea. 2226 01:50:30,330 --> 01:50:31,940 I want to do this. 2227 01:50:31,940 --> 01:50:34,580 And I was very lucky, because he said, oh, my god, I'm 2228 01:50:34,580 --> 01:50:36,990 really interested in these areas. 2229 01:50:36,990 --> 01:50:40,200 And he, because he was one of the first ones-- 2230 01:50:40,200 --> 01:50:43,575 I mean, the first in 25 years to have something really 2231 01:50:43,575 --> 01:50:46,060 radically happening and changing in that structure 2232 01:50:46,060 --> 01:50:48,920 of the Bienniale, of course he was happy to do something 2233 01:50:48,920 --> 01:50:49,440 provocative. 2234 01:50:49,440 --> 01:50:52,470 And he wanted to do something provocative. 2235 01:50:52,470 --> 01:50:54,950 And he wanted his Bienniale to be successful. 2236 01:50:54,950 --> 01:50:58,720 And already to choose me was a problem. 2237 01:50:58,720 --> 01:50:59,720 So it was really funny. 2238 01:50:59,720 --> 01:51:01,710 So of course, he was totally on my side. 2239 01:51:01,710 --> 01:51:04,766 And so I negotiated to have a piece of land, 2240 01:51:04,766 --> 01:51:07,315 and to occupy this little piece of land. 2241 01:51:07,315 --> 01:51:09,190 And then I had the gardener come and tell me, 2242 01:51:09,190 --> 01:51:10,690 what are you doing to my flowers? 2243 01:51:10,690 --> 01:51:11,606 And I don't know what. 2244 01:51:11,606 --> 01:51:14,310 I was, like, OK, I'll do them again. 2245 01:51:14,310 --> 01:51:15,710 Just leave me work. 2246 01:51:15,710 --> 01:51:19,180 So it was very, very interesting for all of these reasons, 2247 01:51:19,180 --> 01:51:20,850 because everybody was waiting to see 2248 01:51:20,850 --> 01:51:23,800 what's going to happen, what are they actually going to show? 2249 01:51:23,800 --> 01:51:26,570 Is it really going to make a difference? 2250 01:51:26,570 --> 01:51:30,860 And it was a fascinating, very exciting time. 2251 01:51:30,860 --> 01:51:33,610 And the work was really very engaging, 2252 01:51:33,610 --> 01:51:36,800 because the people who built the tower live in these areas. 2253 01:51:36,800 --> 01:51:38,640 And when they understood what I was doing, 2254 01:51:38,640 --> 01:51:40,830 they became completely in love with it. 2255 01:51:40,830 --> 01:51:44,860 And then the people who guard that military base are 2256 01:51:44,860 --> 01:51:46,400 people who live in this area. 2257 01:51:46,400 --> 01:51:48,480 So they actually came and did their naps. 2258 01:51:48,480 --> 01:51:52,020 They took naps inside my tower. 2259 01:51:52,020 --> 01:51:55,380 The people who owned the cafes around, 2260 01:51:55,380 --> 01:51:59,240 the library and all of this inside the garden surrounding 2261 01:51:59,240 --> 01:52:02,260 became familiar with me building this for two months, 2262 01:52:02,260 --> 01:52:05,047 and then showing it for another month. 2263 01:52:05,047 --> 01:52:06,630 And so every time there was a visitor, 2264 01:52:06,630 --> 01:52:08,004 they would come and offer coffee. 2265 01:52:08,004 --> 01:52:09,650 So it became a cafe. 2266 01:52:09,650 --> 01:52:10,830 I mean, it was incredible. 2267 01:52:10,830 --> 01:52:13,885 And I would come in the morning, and find these huge ashtrays 2268 01:52:13,885 --> 01:52:15,000 full of cigarettes. 2269 01:52:15,000 --> 01:52:16,907 I was, like, who smoked all this? 2270 01:52:16,907 --> 01:52:18,740 I would ask [INAUDIBLE] who smoked all this? 2271 01:52:18,740 --> 01:52:21,870 He was, like, well, the Director of the Opera House 2272 01:52:21,870 --> 01:52:25,380 came with his meeting, with somebody he was meeting. 2273 01:52:25,380 --> 01:52:28,620 And they stayed three hours, and smoked all night. 2274 01:52:28,620 --> 01:52:31,080 And so they were having their meetings in that space. 2275 01:52:31,080 --> 01:52:33,470 So that space became like a space. 2276 01:52:33,470 --> 01:52:34,480 It was super alive. 2277 01:52:37,090 --> 01:52:42,839 And it was really interesting, because it helped, sort of. 2278 01:52:42,839 --> 01:52:44,380 People came to me and said, you know, 2279 01:52:44,380 --> 01:52:51,840 normally, we see these areas are as crime-ridden, ugly, horrible 2280 01:52:51,840 --> 01:52:52,620 people. 2281 01:52:52,620 --> 01:52:55,680 They have very negative connotation. 2282 01:52:55,680 --> 01:52:58,760 And now I'm going to go back to these areas 2283 01:52:58,760 --> 01:53:01,150 and look at it from a different angle. 2284 01:53:01,150 --> 01:53:06,180 So it was this kind of energy, and trying 2285 01:53:06,180 --> 01:53:10,560 to bring people to look at themselves in a different way 2286 01:53:10,560 --> 01:53:12,220 and say, OK, wake up. 2287 01:53:14,770 --> 01:53:18,140 PROFESSOR: Well, I wish we had more time to discuss. 2288 01:53:18,140 --> 01:53:20,360 It's so interesting, all of this. 2289 01:53:20,360 --> 01:53:25,650 But we need to do another presentation. 2290 01:53:25,650 --> 01:53:26,710 So I want to thank you. 2291 01:53:26,710 --> 01:53:27,610 Let's applaud Lara. 2292 01:53:27,610 --> 01:53:28,210 [APPLAUSE] 2293 01:53:28,210 --> 01:53:29,760 LARA BALADI: Thank you.