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PROFESSOR: So this is, as I
understand it, continuing the

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conversation you've already
started on education.

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And this is sort of the last
of the education lectures.

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So what I propose to do today is
to just kind of try to tell

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a story, a single story
that kind of fits some

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of the facts together.

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You've seen some of the broad
patterns of dysfunctionality

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already, as well as some
of the local success

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stories, if you like.

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I think the last lecture was
about this NGO [INAUDIBLE]

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and its many efforts to
improve education.

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So what I'm going to do today
is continue from there, but

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talk a little bit more
sort of big picture,

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focusing mostly on--

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the goal is to tie things
together into a story that

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might make some sense, and help
us think forward about,

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if this is what's going on,
where should we act?

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That's always the ultimate
question we have in mind,

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which is to try to find a way to
an action point or a lever.

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And it's only by wrapping in
these facts into a narrative

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that we can find a lever.

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So what I want to do is
I want to go from

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the fact to a lever.

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And the way we will go there is
by talking about a specific

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interpretation of the facts.

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So that's what I want to do.

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And I'm hoping that you already
read some of this

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material and are sufficiently
engaged with it, that we'll

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have a lot of discussion along
the way about, is this a

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reasonable interpretation
of the facts or not?

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And I'm very much open to the
idea that you may think that

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this is not the right
interpretation.

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And we can definitely, you
should feel free to propose

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alternatives or whatever
you think.

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You think I'm going too fast,
or trying to push the logic

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too far, you should stop me,
or if you have questions.

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So I think that the first fact,
which is I think very,

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very widely accepted but somehow
not necessarily very

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widely documented, is that
education is actually

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beneficial for the people
who get it.

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And you would that this is
something that we would have

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seen tons and tons of reliable
evidence on.

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But in fact, the reliable
evidence, even on this very

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basic question, is
relatively weak.

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The reason why education
evidence tends to be weak is

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that, as you know, education's
not like taking a medicine.

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The nice thing about
taking medicine is

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that I take a medicine.

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A week later, I'm better.

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Education is something that
has action at a distance.

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It's like something that I get
educated today and tomorrow

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and day after, the
day after that.

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And then distant future, I get
a job, and that's where it

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benefits me.

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So that sort remoteness of it is
actually part of the reason

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why it's hard to find good
evidence for education.

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You need to have a data set
where you saw who got educated

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today, and what happened
to their

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salaries' 20 years later.

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And that's not always easy to
find, for obvious reasons.

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You might imagine that
you do need to track

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people in some way.

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So that's why there's
not much evidence.

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The evidence that there is, a
significant part of it comes

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from countries like
the US, where the

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evidence is very clear.

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Education seems to have a clear
and relatively high,

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stable rate of return.

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Hasn't changed very
much over time.

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And a few studies like the one
from Indonesia which also find

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the same thing, and actually
find, surprisingly, relatively

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similar rates of return
on education.

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The benefits of education in
Indonesia seem to be similar

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to that in the US.

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And that's something that, when
it came out, was rather

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surprising to people.

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Why would it be surprising?

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What would you have expected?

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AUDIENCE: I don't know, that
education here might be better

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or something.

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PROFESSOR: Right.

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So you could imagine
that it would be--

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education in the US has higher
quality, so maybe the returns

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would be higher in the US.

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Anybody want to suggest a
reason for the opposite?

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AUDIENCE: Education in the
US is more expensive.

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00:06:04,330 --> 00:06:06,450
PROFESSOR: That's an
excellent point.

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But primary education is what
we're talking about right now.

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So that's not very
expensive, right?

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It's mostly free.

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AUDIENCE: If everyone in the
US has an education,

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[INAUDIBLE].

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PROFESSOR: Absolutely.

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The opposite view is
that education

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is scarce in Indonesia.

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And especially in the early
'70s, very few people had

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primary education.

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So you might imagine that
something that's scarce

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typically has a higher price.

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So you might imagine that it
would be more rewarding.

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So you could imagine it
going either way.

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Turns out, these two effects
seem to have cancelled out.

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And you get on net, roughly the
same rate on education in

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the US as you get
in Indonesia.

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But that's all to say that we
seem to think that there is--

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it's not that there's a huge
amount of evidence.

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But what there is seems pretty
consistent and compelling.

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So I think most people accept
the idea that there is a

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benefit from education.

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And then the next question that
then arises is if there's

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a benefit from education,
why are people

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getting such lousy quality?

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Why isn't it the case that
education systems kind of

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stand up and deliver?

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If education's valuable, why
isn't there a system that

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supplies it?

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Why is it that you have all
these schools where kids are

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going and learning nothing?

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AUDIENCE: Unlike other
investments, one is it's not

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00:08:10,275 --> 00:08:12,375
made by the primary
beneficiary.

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I mean, parents that
fundamentally pay for the

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00:08:15,265 --> 00:08:17,680
investment or the government's
a case maybe.

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And the parents paid the
lost wages that that

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child could be earning.

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The other thing that, unlike
other investments, is the

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returns, like we talked about
earlier, are very long-term.

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PROFESSOR: So you're saying that
one reason why education

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might be different is the
connection between the cost

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you're paying and the returns
you're getting is weak.

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So maybe the government,
I don't really

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think about the returns.

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The government wants me to send
my children to school.

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So I send them.

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But I don't really
think about it.

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So I don't think of
all the returns.

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00:08:57,090 --> 00:08:59,070
I don't make the investments
in it.

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I don't really care about it.

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00:09:01,918 --> 00:09:04,250
It's just something the
government wants me to do.

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00:09:04,250 --> 00:09:05,920
And therefore, I don't
get benefits.

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00:09:05,920 --> 00:09:09,770
So I'm going to try to suggest
evidence that that's not

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00:09:09,770 --> 00:09:10,440
what's going on.

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But that's exactly right.

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One very plausible hypothesis is
that this is something that

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people really, they're
not buying education

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like they buy machines.

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They're getting education
from the government

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as a kind of gift.

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And therefore, they don't
care about it.

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So that's one kind
of explanation.

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But that's exactly right.

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That's one possibility.

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Let's keep going a bit,
and we'll come--

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go ahead.

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AUDIENCE: Well, one of the
things that was written was

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00:09:46,200 --> 00:09:48,895
that they have this mistaken
impression that the first few

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years of schooling have very low
returns and that secondary

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00:09:52,570 --> 00:09:55,265
education or university
education is where you

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actually get a meaningful
increase.

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So it gives the most incentive
to care about effective

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00:10:00,900 --> 00:10:03,600
education [INAUDIBLE] it's
someone they're planning on

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00:10:03,600 --> 00:10:04,335
funding later on.

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PROFESSOR: Right.

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00:10:05,305 --> 00:10:09,280
And an alternative view, which
we'll come back to and spend

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00:10:09,280 --> 00:10:13,830
some time on, is that people
actually don't--

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it's not that people don't
believe education's valuable.

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They don't know which part
of education is valuable.

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And that's sort of what
you're suggesting.

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AUDIENCE: Question.

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00:10:24,040 --> 00:10:27,225
So we just talked about how,
in Indonesia, we saw there

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00:10:27,225 --> 00:10:28,940
were benefits to education.

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00:10:28,940 --> 00:10:29,920
And now we're talking about the

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00:10:29,920 --> 00:10:31,390
education being poor quality.

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So is the idea that even this
poor quality education is

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still incurring benefits that
people aren't realizing, that

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00:10:38,335 --> 00:10:39,940
[INAUDIBLE]?

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00:10:39,940 --> 00:10:44,910
PROFESSOR: So I think that goes
back to the conversation

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00:10:44,910 --> 00:10:47,540
we had a little while ago, which
is that we would imagine

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that in Indonesia, education
would be a lot more valuable

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00:10:51,520 --> 00:10:53,360
than in the US.

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00:10:53,360 --> 00:10:55,020
Because there's so
much less of it.

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And you would think that when
I'm the first primary educated

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00:10:58,220 --> 00:11:02,470
person in the village, that's
much more valuable than being

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00:11:02,470 --> 00:11:04,820
the 2,000th.

191
00:11:04,820 --> 00:11:07,740
Never the less, we don't find
high returns in Indonesia.

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00:11:07,740 --> 00:11:09,650
We find comparable to the US.

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00:11:09,650 --> 00:11:13,790
So the idea is, implicitly, that
the returns to education

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00:11:13,790 --> 00:11:18,830
are lower in Indonesia partly
because the quality is--

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00:11:18,830 --> 00:11:22,240
actually somebody suggested
exactly that, which is that

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00:11:22,240 --> 00:11:26,930
one reason why you might
expect lower returns in

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00:11:26,930 --> 00:11:29,420
Indonesia is that the
quality is lower.

198
00:11:29,420 --> 00:11:32,420
And so I think the concern is

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00:11:32,420 --> 00:11:35,130
education is socially valuable.

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00:11:35,130 --> 00:11:41,070
We want it because there's
not many educated people.

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On the other hand, maybe the
delivery systems are weak.

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00:11:44,830 --> 00:11:46,960
And therefore, it's not
worth getting it.

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00:11:46,960 --> 00:11:48,850
So that's a trade off.

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00:11:48,850 --> 00:11:52,500
And the question, if you look at
the other evidence, you've

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00:11:52,500 --> 00:11:56,760
already looked at it, it seems
like it's hard to imagine

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00:11:56,760 --> 00:12:00,470
somebody who's in fifth grade
and can't really read having

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00:12:00,470 --> 00:12:02,240
got much benefit
from education.

208
00:12:02,240 --> 00:12:05,960
So our presumption is that at
least a significant proportion

209
00:12:05,960 --> 00:12:09,420
of the people who are getting
to fifth grade without being

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00:12:09,420 --> 00:12:12,250
able to read are not getting
anything out of education.

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00:12:12,250 --> 00:12:14,630
They're just going through
the motions.

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00:12:14,630 --> 00:12:17,870
So why is it that there are so
many people who are going

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00:12:17,870 --> 00:12:22,050
through the motions rather than
saying look, why am I

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00:12:22,050 --> 00:12:25,370
wasting my time with this
education thing, unless it's

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00:12:25,370 --> 00:12:26,970
worth something to me?

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00:12:26,970 --> 00:12:28,670
That's sort of the question.

217
00:12:28,670 --> 00:12:34,440
And a corollary to that question
comes from the fact

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00:12:34,440 --> 00:12:39,040
that, in fact, the Pratham
experience suggests, is it's

219
00:12:39,040 --> 00:12:40,800
not even that hard to
improve quality.

220
00:12:40,800 --> 00:12:44,500
It may well be that you could
imagine that it's just

221
00:12:44,500 --> 00:12:47,630
impossible to improve quality,
because kids are very

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00:12:47,630 --> 00:12:49,140
difficult to teach.

223
00:12:49,140 --> 00:12:50,660
But in fact, kids are not
difficult to teach.

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00:12:50,660 --> 00:12:53,080
The whole Pratham experience is
that whenever you have an

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00:12:53,080 --> 00:12:56,740
intervention which sort of
provides them with some little

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00:12:56,740 --> 00:13:00,180
bit of extra help and some
focused help on what they

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00:13:00,180 --> 00:13:02,670
need, the kids improve fast.

228
00:13:02,670 --> 00:13:04,340
So that makes it even
more positing.

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00:13:04,340 --> 00:13:08,200
Because at some level, it's
easy to improve them.

230
00:13:08,200 --> 00:13:13,060
The kids' education, if you've
got a high quality education,

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00:13:13,060 --> 00:13:14,570
that has value.

232
00:13:14,570 --> 00:13:16,150
So what's going on?

233
00:13:16,150 --> 00:13:18,310
Where's the pipeline broken?

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00:13:18,310 --> 00:13:19,428
Yeah.

235
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AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE] education
focused on all

236
00:13:21,923 --> 00:13:26,414
levels of students,
[INAUDIBLE].

237
00:13:26,414 --> 00:13:32,152
So it's not geared to
the basic needs that

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00:13:32,152 --> 00:13:33,899
each student needs?

239
00:13:33,899 --> 00:13:35,057
PROFESSOR: Yeah.

240
00:13:35,057 --> 00:13:37,550
I think that that is part--

241
00:13:37,550 --> 00:13:41,860
we're going to come and try to,
in a sense, develop that

242
00:13:41,860 --> 00:13:45,830
hypothesis and look at how that
can help us explain a

243
00:13:45,830 --> 00:13:47,200
whole bunch of different
things.

244
00:13:47,200 --> 00:13:53,540
So that's exactly the kind of
hypothesis that we'll come to.

245
00:13:53,540 --> 00:13:57,510
And it's good that we already
start hinting at it.

246
00:13:57,510 --> 00:14:02,430
But I just want to first frame
the question quite sharply.

247
00:14:02,430 --> 00:14:05,890
This seems like education is
something that, prima facie,

248
00:14:05,890 --> 00:14:07,670
is valuable.

249
00:14:07,670 --> 00:14:10,170
And it's not hard to deliver.

250
00:14:10,170 --> 00:14:11,870
Those two things are
what you've seen.

251
00:14:11,870 --> 00:14:14,180
You've seen that it
seems valuable.

252
00:14:14,180 --> 00:14:16,240
It seems very low quality.

253
00:14:16,240 --> 00:14:18,300
So many of you aren't getting
anything out of it.

254
00:14:18,300 --> 00:14:20,130
And it's easy to make
sure that they get

255
00:14:20,130 --> 00:14:20,990
something out of it.

256
00:14:20,990 --> 00:14:24,110
Those three facts, how are
they sitting together?

257
00:14:24,110 --> 00:14:25,720
That's the question.

258
00:14:25,720 --> 00:14:29,510
You would think that one of
these facts has to give.

259
00:14:29,510 --> 00:14:33,240
That's the puzzle.

260
00:14:33,240 --> 00:14:37,220
Why is it that this thing that's
easy to improve is not

261
00:14:37,220 --> 00:14:40,500
being improved, even though
improvements will generate

262
00:14:40,500 --> 00:14:41,750
large gains.

263
00:14:45,350 --> 00:14:46,060
Yeah.

264
00:14:46,060 --> 00:14:48,935
AUDIENCE: Maybe it's easy to
improve on a small scale, but

265
00:14:48,935 --> 00:14:50,200
not so much on a large
and consistent scale.

266
00:14:50,200 --> 00:14:52,410
PROFESSOR: That's another
possibility.

267
00:14:52,410 --> 00:14:55,400
Now, part of the reason we
emphasize some of the Pratham

268
00:14:55,400 --> 00:14:59,330
experience was that large
is a relative word.

269
00:14:59,330 --> 00:15:01,760
But Pratham operates
on a fairly--

270
00:15:01,760 --> 00:15:12,310
like a state in India is often
larger than any five countries

271
00:15:12,310 --> 00:15:14,360
you would randomly name
in the world.

272
00:15:14,360 --> 00:15:19,120
So it's not small in any
obvious scale of small.

273
00:15:19,120 --> 00:15:20,620
That's why we were
emphasizing it.

274
00:15:20,620 --> 00:15:24,600
So if you take five countries
at random, the sum of the

275
00:15:24,600 --> 00:15:30,170
states, the way they work, would
be smaller than this.

276
00:15:30,170 --> 00:15:33,980
Because India has
so many people.

277
00:15:33,980 --> 00:15:34,470
OK.

278
00:15:34,470 --> 00:15:39,810
So this is sort of the story
that several of you have

279
00:15:39,810 --> 00:15:49,120
already hinted at, which is a
story that parents have the

280
00:15:49,120 --> 00:15:52,570
wrong view of which part of
an education is valuable.

281
00:15:52,570 --> 00:15:55,370
So starting point of
that is we call

282
00:15:55,370 --> 00:15:58,340
it an illusory s-shape.

283
00:15:58,340 --> 00:16:05,020
So you know the idea of
an s-shape, right?

284
00:16:05,020 --> 00:16:10,770
The idea of an s-shape is that
when you get a little bit of

285
00:16:10,770 --> 00:16:13,380
education that has very
little value.

286
00:16:13,380 --> 00:16:17,500
And then as I get more and more
education, the value of

287
00:16:17,500 --> 00:16:20,500
the education I'm getting
goes up for a while.

288
00:16:20,500 --> 00:16:23,240
And then at some point,
presumably, it flattens off.

289
00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:27,510
Once you've got your Ph.D.,
presumably a second Ph.D.

290
00:16:27,510 --> 00:16:30,550
isn't worth that much, at
least in income terms.

291
00:16:30,550 --> 00:16:32,820
So at some point, it's
going to flatten out.

292
00:16:32,820 --> 00:16:36,390
So the returns go kind of like
that, then like that,

293
00:16:36,390 --> 00:16:37,270
and then like that.

294
00:16:37,270 --> 00:16:39,910
That's an s.

295
00:16:39,910 --> 00:16:43,670
Is that clear, why it's an s?

296
00:16:43,670 --> 00:16:46,820
So that idea.

297
00:16:46,820 --> 00:16:50,300
One of the hypothesis that
I think we've been most

298
00:16:50,300 --> 00:16:58,650
persuaded by is that parents
seem to believe that there is

299
00:16:58,650 --> 00:17:03,090
a real jackpot if you
get to the end of

300
00:17:03,090 --> 00:17:04,180
the education tunnel.

301
00:17:04,180 --> 00:17:06,560
So they think of education
as being this tunnel.

302
00:17:06,560 --> 00:17:10,810
Once you get into a tunnel,
there's nothing good happening

303
00:17:10,810 --> 00:17:11,609
for a long time.

304
00:17:11,609 --> 00:17:14,315
When you come out of the tunnel,
those who manage to

305
00:17:14,315 --> 00:17:16,609
come out of the tunnel, which
means you get through the

306
00:17:16,609 --> 00:17:20,859
whole school system and you
graduate from high school,

307
00:17:20,859 --> 00:17:23,000
then you get a government
job automatically.

308
00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:25,020
That's how they describe it.

309
00:17:25,020 --> 00:17:28,510
70% of them think that if my
child could only get through

310
00:17:28,510 --> 00:17:31,900
high school, he will actually
get a government job.

311
00:17:31,900 --> 00:17:33,980
In fact, the probability that
he would actually get a

312
00:17:33,980 --> 00:17:36,730
government job is less
than half of that.

313
00:17:36,730 --> 00:17:41,510
So they seem to, at the
top end, they seem

314
00:17:41,510 --> 00:17:43,060
to overvalue education.

315
00:17:43,060 --> 00:17:46,700
They think that if my child
could only get through this

316
00:17:46,700 --> 00:17:50,600
whole tunnel, there's a
job waiting for him.

317
00:17:50,600 --> 00:17:52,110
But in fact, that's not true.

318
00:17:52,110 --> 00:17:54,340
There are not enough government
jobs around.

319
00:17:54,340 --> 00:17:57,840
So you don't get these
good jobs.

320
00:17:57,840 --> 00:18:05,550
On the other end, and this is
the fact that's much harder to

321
00:18:05,550 --> 00:18:09,900
appreciate, you will find out
what the probability of

322
00:18:09,900 --> 00:18:12,060
getting a government job
is relatively easily.

323
00:18:12,060 --> 00:18:15,160
But what's really hard to find
out is what are the benefits?

324
00:18:15,160 --> 00:18:17,810
And especially if you are an
illiterate parent, what are

325
00:18:17,810 --> 00:18:24,070
the benefits of getting three
years of education?

326
00:18:24,070 --> 00:18:28,140
And if you think about it in
the US, the US actually,

327
00:18:28,140 --> 00:18:29,890
nobody gets three years
of education.

328
00:18:29,890 --> 00:18:33,240
Therefore, we can't even tell
what the benefits are.

329
00:18:33,240 --> 00:18:37,030
But I think what is surprising,
but maybe not

330
00:18:37,030 --> 00:18:40,680
surprising once you think about
it, is that the benefits

331
00:18:40,680 --> 00:18:44,100
of people who get three years of
education's insubstantial.

332
00:18:44,100 --> 00:18:47,950
Why are they substantial?

333
00:18:47,950 --> 00:18:52,930
There are a bunch of stuff that
it's hard to appreciate

334
00:18:52,930 --> 00:19:01,260
living from the perspective of
living in the US now, but are

335
00:19:01,260 --> 00:19:02,270
not automatic.

336
00:19:02,270 --> 00:19:06,210
So for example, many people
don't find out about

337
00:19:06,210 --> 00:19:09,740
government programs that are
available to help them.

338
00:19:09,740 --> 00:19:10,140
Why?

339
00:19:10,140 --> 00:19:15,080
Because we don't read any
newspapers or flyers or when

340
00:19:15,080 --> 00:19:18,780
the TV person say something,
they don't understand what is

341
00:19:18,780 --> 00:19:19,670
being said.

342
00:19:19,670 --> 00:19:22,580
So even a minimal understanding
of just how the

343
00:19:22,580 --> 00:19:27,280
system works actually gets
you large benefits.

344
00:19:27,280 --> 00:19:31,370
Or another example people often
give is that even if you

345
00:19:31,370 --> 00:19:35,390
go from first grade to third
grade and you learn to read,

346
00:19:35,390 --> 00:19:38,460
you can read the instructions
on your bag of fertilizer.

347
00:19:38,460 --> 00:19:41,540
And your bag of fertilizer
says, use one

348
00:19:41,540 --> 00:19:44,950
teaspoon, no more.

349
00:19:44,950 --> 00:19:47,330
You know you're to use one
teaspoon, no more.

350
00:19:47,330 --> 00:19:49,870
And put one cup of
water with it.

351
00:19:49,870 --> 00:19:53,050
Just being able to read that has
a large benefit in a world

352
00:19:53,050 --> 00:19:56,860
where people suddenly, lots of
evidence of people overusing

353
00:19:56,860 --> 00:19:58,140
and underusing fertilizer.

354
00:19:58,140 --> 00:20:01,740
So just the fact they can read
the instructions on the packet

355
00:20:01,740 --> 00:20:03,950
is very, very large,
has large benefits.

356
00:20:03,950 --> 00:20:08,170
So the reason why even getting
a third grade education has a

357
00:20:08,170 --> 00:20:11,910
benefit is because there are
lots of things in the world,

358
00:20:11,910 --> 00:20:14,255
lots of information that's
transmitted through reading,

359
00:20:14,255 --> 00:20:15,150
for example.

360
00:20:15,150 --> 00:20:17,700
Like what the government program
is, how to properly

361
00:20:17,700 --> 00:20:21,030
use fertilizer, what new
seeds have become

362
00:20:21,030 --> 00:20:24,490
available for planting.

363
00:20:24,490 --> 00:20:26,790
And that might be in
the newspaper.

364
00:20:26,790 --> 00:20:28,680
Somebody might have
taken an ad.

365
00:20:28,680 --> 00:20:30,810
But you don't read the ad,
and you never find out.

366
00:20:30,810 --> 00:20:35,180
So there are lots of benefits
even if you can read a little.

367
00:20:35,180 --> 00:20:39,180
You don't have to be able to do
calculus to be able to get

368
00:20:39,180 --> 00:20:40,380
benefits of education.

369
00:20:40,380 --> 00:20:42,140
I think that's the evidence.

370
00:20:42,140 --> 00:20:47,870
This picture that I'm going to
show you plots kind of actual

371
00:20:47,870 --> 00:20:56,530
and perceived returns in
Madagascar to the extent that

372
00:20:56,530 --> 00:20:57,540
they can be estimated.

373
00:20:57,540 --> 00:20:59,920
The actual returns are
pretty constant.

374
00:20:59,920 --> 00:21:02,960
The perceived returns come from
a survey where parents

375
00:21:02,960 --> 00:21:05,000
were asked what the
returns were.

376
00:21:05,000 --> 00:21:09,360
And the perceived returns
look more concave.

377
00:21:09,360 --> 00:21:12,460
This is to say, they are more
flat in the beginning, lower

378
00:21:12,460 --> 00:21:13,560
returns at the beginning.

379
00:21:13,560 --> 00:21:15,070
The beginning, you think
that you're not

380
00:21:15,070 --> 00:21:16,750
going to get much returns.

381
00:21:16,750 --> 00:21:20,260
And then as you go
up, they get--

382
00:21:20,260 --> 00:21:23,110
they cross, and you think you
are going to get more returns

383
00:21:23,110 --> 00:21:26,460
than you actually get.

384
00:21:26,460 --> 00:21:27,710
AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE].

385
00:21:30,130 --> 00:21:33,530
PROFESSOR: What that is is
really the percentage increase

386
00:21:33,530 --> 00:21:42,840
in your earnings for an extra
year of education.

387
00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:45,330
When you go to 11, to 12,
what's your percentage

388
00:21:45,330 --> 00:21:46,580
increase in earnings?

389
00:21:51,280 --> 00:21:56,830
So this in some sense
is actually not--

390
00:21:56,830 --> 00:22:00,320
this picture sort of
gets the idea.

391
00:22:00,320 --> 00:22:02,880
But in fact, it doesn't
actually tell you how

392
00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:04,410
big the effect is.

393
00:22:04,410 --> 00:22:07,740
The reason is that in fact,
there are some people who

394
00:22:07,740 --> 00:22:10,460
generally overestimate the
benefits for education.

395
00:22:10,460 --> 00:22:11,850
So some parents think
education's

396
00:22:11,850 --> 00:22:14,090
extraordinary valuable.

397
00:22:14,090 --> 00:22:15,870
And a lot of parents think that

398
00:22:15,870 --> 00:22:17,650
education's completely useless.

399
00:22:17,650 --> 00:22:21,580
So this yellow curve is
an average of very

400
00:22:21,580 --> 00:22:22,830
lows and very highs.

401
00:22:25,790 --> 00:22:30,150
So in some sense, the average
looks actually less wrong than

402
00:22:30,150 --> 00:22:32,380
the individual parents think.

403
00:22:32,380 --> 00:22:35,460
So some parents are
overestimating their returns.

404
00:22:35,460 --> 00:22:37,330
They're all sending their
children to school.

405
00:22:37,330 --> 00:22:40,000
Others just think education's
worthless, at

406
00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:41,890
least for their children.

407
00:22:41,890 --> 00:22:44,030
And their children is important
in that sentence,

408
00:22:44,030 --> 00:22:46,290
because a lot of people think
education is something that

409
00:22:46,290 --> 00:22:48,150
benefits those other children.

410
00:22:48,150 --> 00:22:50,610
People from rich families can
benefit from education.

411
00:22:50,610 --> 00:22:52,580
Our children don't benefit.

412
00:22:52,580 --> 00:23:00,810
So there's clearly a strong kind
of self-discrimination,

413
00:23:00,810 --> 00:23:03,460
which we'll come back
to in a bit.

414
00:23:03,460 --> 00:23:09,256
So that average actually masks
a lot of divergence.

415
00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:23,850
So what I want to do now is I'm
going to take this as a

416
00:23:23,850 --> 00:23:28,010
hypothesis, the fact that this
what I would call elite bias,

417
00:23:28,010 --> 00:23:32,200
the idea that people think
it's an s shape.

418
00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:36,890
Returns are at the high end,
no returns at the low end.

419
00:23:36,890 --> 00:23:38,320
Assume that that's true.

420
00:23:38,320 --> 00:23:40,540
And look at how that can
help us explain a

421
00:23:40,540 --> 00:23:41,790
bunch of other facts.

422
00:23:47,390 --> 00:23:52,060
So we're going to look at what
this does for the parents, the

423
00:23:52,060 --> 00:23:53,310
teachers, the students.

424
00:23:58,750 --> 00:24:00,180
You see where we're going?

425
00:24:00,180 --> 00:24:01,480
We're going to make
a hypothesis.

426
00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:03,670
We've made the hypothesis.

427
00:24:03,670 --> 00:24:06,140
Now we're going to look at what
that hypothesis does.

428
00:24:06,140 --> 00:24:08,990
Particularly, you know a bunch
of facts, and we'll try to fit

429
00:24:08,990 --> 00:24:10,710
together a bunch
of those facts.

430
00:24:10,710 --> 00:24:12,900
Then at the end, I'll tell you
some other facts that you

431
00:24:12,900 --> 00:24:16,250
probably don't know, which
also kind of fit this

432
00:24:16,250 --> 00:24:16,655
hypothesis.

433
00:24:16,655 --> 00:24:21,560
So it's sort of a way to
give it a bit more

434
00:24:21,560 --> 00:24:24,000
power, if you like.

435
00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:25,290
Try it out on things.

436
00:24:37,660 --> 00:24:44,320
So one implication is think of
the first implication of this.

437
00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:50,450
Imagine that, I believe that you
get benefits only if you

438
00:24:50,450 --> 00:24:53,850
get through high school.

439
00:24:53,850 --> 00:24:56,640
And you have three children.

440
00:24:56,640 --> 00:24:59,610
And you can't really afford to
put all three of them through

441
00:24:59,610 --> 00:25:00,860
high school.

442
00:25:05,570 --> 00:25:10,000
So in truth, as we saw, the
returns are pretty constant.

443
00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:13,900
So an extra year is
an extra year.

444
00:25:13,900 --> 00:25:17,650
If it were the case that an
extra year, an extra year, how

445
00:25:17,650 --> 00:25:18,900
should you spend the money?

446
00:25:22,870 --> 00:25:24,690
Equally.

447
00:25:24,690 --> 00:25:26,530
Since all the children,
there's no reason to

448
00:25:26,530 --> 00:25:27,370
discriminate.

449
00:25:27,370 --> 00:25:30,160
Why give one of them a chance
and not the others?

450
00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:35,420
Any bias towards equity will
make you just spend equal

451
00:25:35,420 --> 00:25:37,570
amounts over the children.

452
00:25:37,570 --> 00:25:40,050
Because they're all
your children.

453
00:25:40,050 --> 00:25:42,680
Why discriminate?

454
00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:45,270
One year of education is
one year of education.

455
00:25:45,270 --> 00:25:47,820
So there's no reason
to discriminate.

456
00:25:47,820 --> 00:25:51,870
Now, imagine we believed
something else.

457
00:25:51,870 --> 00:25:53,680
We believe that the
first years of

458
00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:55,390
education are worth much.

459
00:25:55,390 --> 00:25:59,410
But then the final years
are worth a lot.

460
00:25:59,410 --> 00:26:01,466
How would we spend our money?

461
00:26:01,466 --> 00:26:03,156
AUDIENCE: I'm assuming
you have two

462
00:26:03,156 --> 00:26:04,364
kids who are identical.

463
00:26:04,364 --> 00:26:07,262
You have [INAUDIBLE].

464
00:26:07,262 --> 00:26:07,745
between the two.

465
00:26:07,745 --> 00:26:09,677
And you believe that the latter
is the most important

466
00:26:09,677 --> 00:26:11,610
[INAUDIBLE].

467
00:26:11,610 --> 00:26:12,990
PROFESSOR: Right.

468
00:26:12,990 --> 00:26:14,630
You think of it as being--

469
00:26:18,150 --> 00:26:20,160
you guess which of
your children

470
00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:23,450
will be good at education.

471
00:26:23,450 --> 00:26:26,370
And you're going to give all
your education to that child,

472
00:26:26,370 --> 00:26:29,130
and give the other
one nothing.

473
00:26:29,130 --> 00:26:31,640
That's one implication of this
view, is that you're going to

474
00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:34,610
discriminate among
your children.

475
00:26:34,610 --> 00:26:38,120
Now, the way you're going to
discriminate is probably, you

476
00:26:38,120 --> 00:26:39,766
probably don't believe your
children are identical.

477
00:26:39,766 --> 00:26:43,030
So you're going to
look for signs.

478
00:26:43,030 --> 00:26:46,700
Maybe in first grade, one of the
children was doing better

479
00:26:46,700 --> 00:26:47,880
than the other.

480
00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:48,860
It means nothing.

481
00:26:48,860 --> 00:26:50,520
Some children do well
in first grade.

482
00:26:50,520 --> 00:26:52,570
Some children do badly
in first grade.

483
00:26:52,570 --> 00:26:55,310
Many of you who are at MIT
were doing badly in first

484
00:26:55,310 --> 00:26:58,080
grade, and then ended
up at MIT.

485
00:26:58,080 --> 00:26:59,480
I'm sure some people
were doing very

486
00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:00,720
well in first grade.

487
00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:02,320
Didn't get to MIT.

488
00:27:02,320 --> 00:27:04,180
So it's a very poor predictor.

489
00:27:04,180 --> 00:27:06,840
Your first grade performance, a
very, very poor predictor of

490
00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:09,920
your long term performance.

491
00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:13,280
It's a predictor, but not
particularly a reliable one.

492
00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:16,770
But parents, what do
they have to go on?

493
00:27:16,770 --> 00:27:20,140
They're going to look at which
child is doing well in first

494
00:27:20,140 --> 00:27:23,370
grade, and then put their
money on that one.

495
00:27:23,370 --> 00:27:26,650
So you wouldn't probably
pick one at random.

496
00:27:26,650 --> 00:27:29,960
But you pick one based on
some very noisy signal.

497
00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:39,280
You observe whether they come
back from first grade with,

498
00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:41,450
they chewed up their pencils
in first grade

499
00:27:41,450 --> 00:27:42,525
more or less or something.

500
00:27:42,525 --> 00:27:44,890
And you decide, well, this
one's fit for education.

501
00:27:44,890 --> 00:27:46,000
This one's not.

502
00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:48,470
And then you're going to
put your money on that.

503
00:27:48,470 --> 00:27:51,340
You're going to find some way
of, since you can't spend

504
00:27:51,340 --> 00:27:55,530
equal amounts on both, you're
going to find some signal

505
00:27:55,530 --> 00:27:58,970
that's going to allow
you to discriminate.

506
00:27:58,970 --> 00:28:00,220
Right?

507
00:28:00,220 --> 00:28:01,470
That's what you'd expect.

508
00:28:29,190 --> 00:28:34,180
So actually, let me go back one
slide and just talk about

509
00:28:34,180 --> 00:28:38,820
discrimination a little bit more
before we get to this.

510
00:28:50,750 --> 00:28:55,800
So this is something that
if you do field work in

511
00:28:55,800 --> 00:28:57,890
developing countries, this
is something that

512
00:28:57,890 --> 00:28:58,850
jumps out at you.

513
00:28:58,850 --> 00:29:01,540
And something that you spend--

514
00:29:01,540 --> 00:29:05,470
like me, I've spent all my
adult life in the US.

515
00:29:05,470 --> 00:29:07,870
So I'm kind of used
to the US now.

516
00:29:07,870 --> 00:29:10,490
So you go to somebody's house.

517
00:29:10,490 --> 00:29:14,170
What's the chance you'll hear
a parent with two children,

518
00:29:14,170 --> 00:29:18,240
one sitting here, the other
standing there, and he looks

519
00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:23,570
at the child who's sitting there
and says, oh, that one,

520
00:29:23,570 --> 00:29:24,250
he's an idiot.

521
00:29:24,250 --> 00:29:26,810
He's not capable of
study, literally.

522
00:29:26,810 --> 00:29:29,170
I don't mean metaphorically.

523
00:29:29,170 --> 00:29:31,000
I mean literally, that
one's an idiot.

524
00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:34,930
But this one, she's
really bright.

525
00:29:34,930 --> 00:29:36,510
And you hear that
all the time.

526
00:29:36,510 --> 00:29:38,370
It's something you'll never
hear in the US.

527
00:29:38,370 --> 00:29:41,230
You'll never hear parents
actually pointing to one of

528
00:29:41,230 --> 00:29:44,440
their children and saying,
this one's an idiot.

529
00:29:44,440 --> 00:29:48,010
That comes very much out of this
theory that in a sense,

530
00:29:48,010 --> 00:29:52,030
there are these, I have
the pick the winner.

531
00:29:52,030 --> 00:29:54,240
The pressure on the parents
is to pick the winner.

532
00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:57,300
Because if you don't pick the
winner, you wasted your money.

533
00:29:57,300 --> 00:29:59,480
So they're trying to
pick the winner.

534
00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:02,710
And in a sense, they are, in
fact, trying to persuade not

535
00:30:02,710 --> 00:30:08,320
just themselves, but also the
siblings to go along with it.

536
00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:09,920
And you see that very much.

537
00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:12,960
I've also seen, which is even
more touching, is one child

538
00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:16,830
saying, you ask him which
school you go to?

539
00:30:16,830 --> 00:30:19,510
He says, oh, I go to
this school, but I

540
00:30:19,510 --> 00:30:20,820
don't really go anymore.

541
00:30:20,820 --> 00:30:21,940
And I said, why?

542
00:30:21,940 --> 00:30:23,795
And he says, well, I'm stupid.

543
00:30:23,795 --> 00:30:25,010
I can't do it.

544
00:30:25,010 --> 00:30:28,240
But you know, my brother over
there, he's really smart.

545
00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:29,570
He's going to the private
school, and

546
00:30:29,570 --> 00:30:30,730
he's doing very well.

547
00:30:30,730 --> 00:30:33,160
And so everybody in the system
internalizes it.

548
00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:37,790
You see that very clear, every
word having internalized.

549
00:30:37,790 --> 00:30:39,250
And that's useful
for the family.

550
00:30:39,250 --> 00:30:44,690
Because the family doesn't want
to sustain a feeling of

551
00:30:44,690 --> 00:30:45,600
inequality.

552
00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:48,550
So if all children believe that
there's only one child

553
00:30:48,550 --> 00:30:52,550
who is smart among them, then
it's good for the family.

554
00:30:52,550 --> 00:30:54,200
The harmony in the
family remains.

555
00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:57,490
Because all the other children
are willing to not be

556
00:30:57,490 --> 00:30:59,000
educated, because they
think they are

557
00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:00,410
not fit to be educated.

558
00:31:00,410 --> 00:31:03,320
So everybody buys into
this idea that this

559
00:31:03,320 --> 00:31:04,730
one child is bright.

560
00:31:04,730 --> 00:31:07,580
And you see that all the time.

561
00:31:07,580 --> 00:31:11,080
Just prima facie, you
see it all the time.

562
00:31:11,080 --> 00:31:12,570
We'll also talk about
evidence.

563
00:31:12,570 --> 00:31:15,630
But I also wanted to say that
that's the shape of it, is

564
00:31:15,630 --> 00:31:19,060
often, you hear people pointing
to this child and

565
00:31:19,060 --> 00:31:20,650
saying, that one is an idiot.

566
00:31:20,650 --> 00:31:22,090
And that's very striking.

567
00:31:22,090 --> 00:31:25,620
If you come to the US, you never
hear a parent say that.

568
00:31:25,620 --> 00:31:27,490
And I don't think it comes out
of the fact that these are

569
00:31:27,490 --> 00:31:29,100
worse parents.

570
00:31:29,100 --> 00:31:30,390
They love their children.

571
00:31:30,390 --> 00:31:32,190
They'll do lots for
their children.

572
00:31:32,190 --> 00:31:36,970
But they really believe that
there is this sort of--

573
00:31:36,970 --> 00:31:41,410
they need to be very good at
picking who's the winner.

574
00:31:41,410 --> 00:31:43,400
Because they need to justify
that to themselves.

575
00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:48,150
They need to justify that to
their other children, the fact

576
00:31:48,150 --> 00:31:49,510
that they pick the
right winner.

577
00:31:49,510 --> 00:31:50,960
That's very important to them.

578
00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:53,130
And you see that very much.

579
00:31:53,130 --> 00:31:54,800
So two studies.

580
00:31:54,800 --> 00:32:04,500
One is in Burkina Faso, they
found that if conditional on

581
00:32:04,500 --> 00:32:13,570
my cognitive score, in a simple
test score, if my

582
00:32:13,570 --> 00:32:16,640
brother is doing well, I'm less
likely to be in school.

583
00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:22,250
So if my brother's doing well,
or my sister's doing well,

584
00:32:22,250 --> 00:32:25,950
that hurts my chances of
getting investment.

585
00:32:25,950 --> 00:32:27,260
So that's exactly what
we're talking

586
00:32:27,260 --> 00:32:29,940
about, picking winners.

587
00:32:29,940 --> 00:32:39,940
Second, in Colombia,
they were given a

588
00:32:39,940 --> 00:32:41,590
conditional cash transfer.

589
00:32:41,590 --> 00:32:45,270
Conditional cash transfer is
like some money which you get

590
00:32:45,270 --> 00:32:48,540
if you child is in school.

591
00:32:48,540 --> 00:32:51,670
And the way it had been
implemented is that some

592
00:32:51,670 --> 00:32:55,870
children were eligible for it.

593
00:32:55,870 --> 00:32:59,170
So basically, when some children
were eligible for it,

594
00:32:59,170 --> 00:33:03,570
parents decided, well, we'll
invest in this child.

595
00:33:03,570 --> 00:33:05,480
That picked the child
to invest in.

596
00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:08,136
That meant you stopped investing
in the other one.

597
00:33:08,136 --> 00:33:11,750
The other child actually were
less likely to go to school,

598
00:33:11,750 --> 00:33:16,010
if your brother was
encouraged by the

599
00:33:16,010 --> 00:33:18,670
government to go to school.

600
00:33:18,670 --> 00:33:24,310
So the government was actually
kind of focused on one child.

601
00:33:24,310 --> 00:33:26,320
And you were getting some money
from sending one of the

602
00:33:26,320 --> 00:33:27,280
children to school.

603
00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:29,890
The other one was
then neglected.

604
00:33:29,890 --> 00:33:33,510
And so you see exactly this
pattern of parents trying--

605
00:33:33,510 --> 00:33:34,267
yeah.

606
00:33:34,267 --> 00:33:37,249
AUDIENCE: How did they choose
the children to get the

607
00:33:37,249 --> 00:33:38,080
investment?

608
00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:40,530
PROFESSOR: In this particular
case, I think it was based on

609
00:33:40,530 --> 00:33:42,210
some age rule.

610
00:33:42,210 --> 00:33:46,090
I think only certain grades
were eligible,

611
00:33:46,090 --> 00:33:49,380
if I remember right.

612
00:33:49,380 --> 00:33:54,080
So it was like seventh graders
can get it, but sixth graders

613
00:33:54,080 --> 00:33:55,410
can't, or something.

614
00:33:55,410 --> 00:33:56,635
I think that was the rule.

615
00:33:56,635 --> 00:34:00,200
It was an age rule, age or
I think maybe a class.

616
00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:02,630
AUDIENCE: So they chose a class
at a particular level.

617
00:34:02,630 --> 00:34:05,546
And then they continued
that class throughout.

618
00:34:05,546 --> 00:34:05,910
PROFESSOR: Right.

619
00:34:05,910 --> 00:34:07,845
I think that's right.

620
00:34:07,845 --> 00:34:10,745
AUDIENCE: I have a question.

621
00:34:10,745 --> 00:34:12,218
Well, I have two questions.

622
00:34:12,218 --> 00:34:16,146
Does this pattern stay the
same if school is free?

623
00:34:16,146 --> 00:34:18,110
If it's still one child
that goes to school?

624
00:34:18,110 --> 00:34:21,056
And also, if it's conditional
cash transfer, wouldn't that

625
00:34:21,056 --> 00:34:22,529
increase the income
to the family?

626
00:34:22,529 --> 00:34:24,770
So they would have more
resources to spread around?

627
00:34:24,770 --> 00:34:25,570
PROFESSOR: Yeah.

628
00:34:25,570 --> 00:34:27,865
So both are excellent
questions.

629
00:34:30,469 --> 00:34:35,310
I think yes, it's still
true where it's free.

630
00:34:35,310 --> 00:34:38,460
Because one of the ways you
discriminate is by sending

631
00:34:38,460 --> 00:34:41,500
your bright child to
private school.

632
00:34:41,500 --> 00:34:44,810
You actually spend resources to
send him to private school.

633
00:34:44,810 --> 00:34:47,510
Or you get him a tutor.

634
00:34:47,510 --> 00:34:49,030
He gets special help.

635
00:34:49,030 --> 00:34:51,110
Or he doesn't have to
do the housework.

636
00:34:51,110 --> 00:34:55,060
He gets time to do his homework
in the evening, while

637
00:34:55,060 --> 00:34:59,240
all the other children are
like tying up the goat or

638
00:34:59,240 --> 00:35:01,930
whatever, giving food to
the cow, or whatever

639
00:35:01,930 --> 00:35:02,790
else they are doing.

640
00:35:02,790 --> 00:35:04,480
He's the one who gets
to do the homework.

641
00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:08,160
So that's one sense in which
you still have lots of

642
00:35:08,160 --> 00:35:09,410
discrimination.

643
00:35:12,020 --> 00:35:21,596
And to answer your other
question, it's true that I

644
00:35:21,596 --> 00:35:23,810
think that discrimination,
again, that's related.

645
00:35:23,810 --> 00:35:27,170
The answer I just gave is also
relevant for that, which is

646
00:35:27,170 --> 00:35:30,550
that part of the way to
operate is not just

647
00:35:30,550 --> 00:35:35,990
discrimination in money spent,
it's also in time.

648
00:35:35,990 --> 00:35:40,360
It's also in this, whose job
is to tie up the cow?

649
00:35:40,360 --> 00:35:43,500
Whose job is to take care
of the younger siblings?

650
00:35:43,500 --> 00:35:45,680
All of those get allocated
unequally.

651
00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:48,670
So the child who gets to go to
private school typically is

652
00:35:48,670 --> 00:35:51,680
also the one who doesn't
take care of the cow.

653
00:35:51,680 --> 00:35:56,090
So you get loaded on
benefits from that.

654
00:35:56,090 --> 00:35:57,890
Does that answer
your question?

655
00:36:01,060 --> 00:36:02,310
OK.

656
00:36:27,350 --> 00:36:40,240
So another implication of this
is that, this is a related

657
00:36:40,240 --> 00:36:48,190
point, which is that parents
will often--

658
00:36:48,190 --> 00:36:53,160
another implication of this is
that if people associate

659
00:36:53,160 --> 00:36:59,590
education with particular forms
of getting a particular

660
00:36:59,590 --> 00:37:04,740
job, then when there are more of
those jobs, they might now

661
00:37:04,740 --> 00:37:08,000
start discriminating more
against the children.

662
00:37:08,000 --> 00:37:08,810
Why?

663
00:37:08,810 --> 00:37:12,810
Because now there is a valuable
opportunity available

664
00:37:12,810 --> 00:37:14,500
for my daughter.

665
00:37:14,500 --> 00:37:19,050
She can get this kind of job if
she only gets this degree.

666
00:37:19,050 --> 00:37:24,920
And I'm going to now try to,
therefore, find resources to

667
00:37:24,920 --> 00:37:27,600
make sure my daughter
can get that degree.

668
00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:31,130
That might mean that I'm going
to give up on my son entirely.

669
00:37:31,130 --> 00:37:33,350
So discrimination.

670
00:37:33,350 --> 00:37:38,540
Another related consequence of
this is that when a particular

671
00:37:38,540 --> 00:37:50,700
job appears which has high
returns, which you perceive

672
00:37:50,700 --> 00:37:55,960
generates high returns for
education, you would target

673
00:37:55,960 --> 00:37:57,880
money towards getting
that job.

674
00:37:57,880 --> 00:38:00,190
And that would increase
this tendency toward

675
00:38:00,190 --> 00:38:00,980
discrimination.

676
00:38:00,980 --> 00:38:12,000
So there's an experiment in
India, a very nice experiment.

677
00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:16,110
What this guy did is
there are all these

678
00:38:16,110 --> 00:38:18,240
call centers in India.

679
00:38:18,240 --> 00:38:19,760
You must have dealt with one.

680
00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:23,740
If you've ever had to call
United Airlines, for example.

681
00:38:28,610 --> 00:38:30,950
One of the things I love about
this is once they hear my

682
00:38:30,950 --> 00:38:35,000
name, their accent
quickly changes.

683
00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:38,710
And they stop trying to fake
an American accent.

684
00:38:38,710 --> 00:38:42,770
They figure that I don't
care so much.

685
00:38:42,770 --> 00:38:50,400
But so these call centers are
in this part of North India

686
00:38:50,400 --> 00:38:52,740
where this is actually
huge discrimination

687
00:38:52,740 --> 00:38:56,070
against girls, otherwise.

688
00:38:56,070 --> 00:39:00,080
But what he did in this
experiment is he went to these

689
00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:03,500
villages near the call center
and said, well, there's a call

690
00:39:03,500 --> 00:39:04,400
center right there.

691
00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:07,800
And if your daughter graduates
high school, she

692
00:39:07,800 --> 00:39:09,410
can get a job there.

693
00:39:09,410 --> 00:39:10,420
So that was the experiment.

694
00:39:10,420 --> 00:39:11,870
And he went and told--

695
00:39:11,870 --> 00:39:16,630
and you immediately find parents
suddenly starting to

696
00:39:16,630 --> 00:39:19,690
discriminate against
their sons.

697
00:39:19,690 --> 00:39:24,620
They start to figure out,
my daughter can

698
00:39:24,620 --> 00:39:26,140
get this good job.

699
00:39:26,140 --> 00:39:28,630
Now I should just put all the
money in her education.

700
00:39:28,630 --> 00:39:31,670
And what happens to my son
doesn't matter anymore.

701
00:39:31,670 --> 00:39:35,930
So you get this pattern of once
parents decide that there

702
00:39:35,930 --> 00:39:40,410
is a jackpot to be had, it's
very easy to get into these

703
00:39:40,410 --> 00:39:41,500
patterns of massive

704
00:39:41,500 --> 00:39:43,110
discrimination within the family.

705
00:39:56,850 --> 00:40:00,830
So in particular, girls'
education went up?

706
00:40:00,830 --> 00:40:00,990
Why?

707
00:40:00,990 --> 00:40:03,870
Because call centers
like girls.

708
00:40:03,870 --> 00:40:07,930
Apparently, the view is, may
or may not be true, is that

709
00:40:07,930 --> 00:40:12,360
girls are easier to train to
be call center employees.

710
00:40:12,360 --> 00:40:15,090
They're more docile,
more, I don't know.

711
00:40:15,090 --> 00:40:16,610
They learn English faster.

712
00:40:16,610 --> 00:40:17,700
There are all kinds
of theories.

713
00:40:17,700 --> 00:40:21,400
But in any case, call centers
like girls, for some

714
00:40:21,400 --> 00:40:22,880
unspecified reason.

715
00:40:22,880 --> 00:40:26,950
So they found out that there
was a big demand for girls.

716
00:40:26,950 --> 00:40:34,570
The result was that you get
this effect on boys.

717
00:40:34,570 --> 00:40:36,670
On net, boys were
not affected.

718
00:40:36,670 --> 00:40:42,360
But parents already, the
baseline had said, this son,

719
00:40:42,360 --> 00:40:44,740
he's not really fit
for education.

720
00:40:44,740 --> 00:40:49,680
So those kids are really got
hurt when this happened.

721
00:40:49,680 --> 00:40:53,700
Because all of those kids who
the parents had decided were

722
00:40:53,700 --> 00:40:57,300
not fit for education, their
education actually dropped

723
00:40:57,300 --> 00:41:01,690
when their sisters started
getting these jobs.

724
00:41:01,690 --> 00:41:06,570
You started substituting away
from their education towards

725
00:41:06,570 --> 00:41:10,240
less education for them.

726
00:41:10,240 --> 00:41:15,200
So this is all to say that
parents are actually using all

727
00:41:15,200 --> 00:41:19,960
these cues to figure out which
child to put the money on.

728
00:41:19,960 --> 00:41:23,290
Because they believe that if I
put money on one child, I'll

729
00:41:23,290 --> 00:41:26,340
get much bigger benefits than
sharing it across children.

730
00:41:26,340 --> 00:41:31,130
And then all these cues
seem to matter.

731
00:41:31,130 --> 00:41:35,600
OK, let's go back to
a different fact.

732
00:41:35,600 --> 00:41:39,630
Another thing that of
course matters is

733
00:41:39,630 --> 00:41:42,290
information in this world.

734
00:41:42,290 --> 00:41:47,270
For parents, what matters is
their perceived returns.

735
00:41:47,270 --> 00:41:48,480
That's what we're talking.

736
00:41:48,480 --> 00:41:49,540
We're talking about
perceived returns.

737
00:41:49,540 --> 00:41:51,910
We're talking about the fact
that parents think their

738
00:41:51,910 --> 00:41:56,890
returns are higher when you get
12th grade education, and

739
00:41:56,890 --> 00:42:01,850
low if you get less than 12th
grade education, et cetera.

740
00:42:01,850 --> 00:42:07,650
So Madagascar, parents were
shown this particular picture.

741
00:42:13,260 --> 00:42:15,280
This picture's kind of
a way to capture

742
00:42:15,280 --> 00:42:16,530
the returns to education.

743
00:42:20,740 --> 00:42:24,250
So without any degree, you
get three kg of grain.

744
00:42:24,250 --> 00:42:31,705
If you get a few more
years, you get four.

745
00:42:31,705 --> 00:42:35,810
If you get more, you get
seven, et cetera.

746
00:42:35,810 --> 00:42:38,970
So this was roughly
the right scaling.

747
00:42:38,970 --> 00:42:43,280
So this is roughly how the
returns are in Madagascar.

748
00:42:43,280 --> 00:42:46,130
AUDIENCE: Is it [INAUDIBLE]
the political [INAUDIBLE]?

749
00:42:46,130 --> 00:42:47,380
PROFESSOR: Yeah.

750
00:42:50,700 --> 00:42:53,760
So that's the range.

751
00:42:53,760 --> 00:42:57,030
For females, it goes
from 34 to 163.

752
00:42:57,030 --> 00:43:01,610
For men, from 47 to 225.

753
00:43:01,610 --> 00:43:06,230
So this was what they
were shown.

754
00:43:06,230 --> 00:43:10,350
When they were shown this,
turned out-- so actually,

755
00:43:10,350 --> 00:43:13,660
before they did that, they
actually asked parents, what

756
00:43:13,660 --> 00:43:15,790
do you think are the returns
to education?

757
00:43:18,820 --> 00:43:22,610
Before they showed them, they
actually asked them, if your

758
00:43:22,610 --> 00:43:24,550
child got an education,
how much would his

759
00:43:24,550 --> 00:43:26,570
income go up by?

760
00:43:26,570 --> 00:43:28,710
So they had written that down.

761
00:43:28,710 --> 00:43:31,090
Then they showed them
this picture.

762
00:43:31,090 --> 00:43:36,100
And what's nice is that the
parents who already thought

763
00:43:36,100 --> 00:43:39,840
that children were going to
get high returns, their

764
00:43:39,840 --> 00:43:41,430
behavior didn't change
very much.

765
00:43:45,580 --> 00:43:47,250
Whose behavior has changed?

766
00:43:47,250 --> 00:43:49,980
The parents who thought that the
returns for the children

767
00:43:49,980 --> 00:43:52,590
were much lower than
they really are.

768
00:43:52,590 --> 00:43:57,020
And about 50% of the parents
had very low returns.

769
00:43:57,020 --> 00:43:59,310
And for those parents,
you get a very

770
00:43:59,310 --> 00:44:04,140
substantial improvement in--

771
00:44:04,140 --> 00:44:05,683
no, that's not it.

772
00:44:05,683 --> 00:44:06,950
I don't know where--

773
00:44:10,110 --> 00:44:11,930
OK.

774
00:44:11,930 --> 00:44:19,530
So it was a very substantial
improvement in the children's

775
00:44:19,530 --> 00:44:23,800
school attendance, to the point
where every intervention

776
00:44:23,800 --> 00:44:29,000
we have studied, the cheapest
way to improve school

777
00:44:29,000 --> 00:44:33,410
attendance that we found,
ever, is this one.

778
00:44:33,410 --> 00:44:35,640
This really is an
extraordinarily cheap

779
00:44:35,640 --> 00:44:35,925
intervention.

780
00:44:35,925 --> 00:44:39,260
It doesn't cost much money to
tell people the returns on

781
00:44:39,260 --> 00:44:42,230
education are higher
than you think.

782
00:44:42,230 --> 00:44:47,360
If you can do it in a credible
way, that improves education

783
00:44:47,360 --> 00:44:49,290
very cheaply.

784
00:44:49,290 --> 00:44:50,880
And it has a substantial
effect.

785
00:44:50,880 --> 00:44:54,500
This turns out to be the
cheapest single thing that

786
00:44:54,500 --> 00:44:56,870
Poverty Action's lab researchers
found for

787
00:44:56,870 --> 00:44:58,090
improving education.

788
00:44:58,090 --> 00:45:00,680
Obviously, it doesn't
do everything.

789
00:45:00,680 --> 00:45:02,230
You can't go very
far with this.

790
00:45:02,230 --> 00:45:06,130
Because it's not going
to distill all

791
00:45:06,130 --> 00:45:06,990
kinds of other things.

792
00:45:06,990 --> 00:45:10,000
If the education system's
broken, then people are not

793
00:45:10,000 --> 00:45:13,110
going to learn anything from
the school, et cetera.

794
00:45:13,110 --> 00:45:16,000
But to get them into school,
this is a very, very

795
00:45:16,000 --> 00:45:17,030
cheap way to do it.

796
00:45:17,030 --> 00:45:19,740
So there's lots of parents who
are clearly discriminating

797
00:45:19,740 --> 00:45:22,410
against their children and not
sending them to school because

798
00:45:22,410 --> 00:45:24,150
they think their children
are not going to get

799
00:45:24,150 --> 00:45:25,670
anything out of it.

800
00:45:25,670 --> 00:45:27,050
Why do they think that?

801
00:45:27,050 --> 00:45:28,860
Well, they think that their
children are never going to

802
00:45:28,860 --> 00:45:33,730
make it through the 12th grade,
or whatever it takes to

803
00:45:33,730 --> 00:45:35,960
get real money from education.

804
00:45:35,960 --> 00:45:39,480
So they'll already assume that,
my child is never going

805
00:45:39,480 --> 00:45:40,940
to make it 12th grade.

806
00:45:40,940 --> 00:45:42,255
Since he's never going
to make it to 12th

807
00:45:42,255 --> 00:45:43,750
grade, what's the point?

808
00:45:43,750 --> 00:45:46,030
And therefore, they don't
send children to school.

809
00:45:46,030 --> 00:45:48,980
You persuade them that even if
you went from third grade to

810
00:45:48,980 --> 00:45:52,610
fifth grade you get extra
returns, then they start

811
00:45:52,610 --> 00:45:54,290
sending children to school.

812
00:45:54,290 --> 00:45:57,310
So the returns to primary
education for many, many

813
00:45:57,310 --> 00:45:59,870
parents are massively
underestimated.

814
00:45:59,870 --> 00:46:00,670
Yeah.

815
00:46:00,670 --> 00:46:02,782
AUDIENCE: I have a
quick question.

816
00:46:02,782 --> 00:46:06,750
Is it distributed evenly across
the incoming classes?

817
00:46:06,750 --> 00:46:09,726
So for example, you were trying
to say education was

818
00:46:09,726 --> 00:46:10,718
for people who are
very wealthy.

819
00:46:10,718 --> 00:46:14,355
It could be 120% returns to
people-- it's education to

820
00:46:14,355 --> 00:46:19,808
people who are lower class to
be 0.5%, in which case, that

821
00:46:19,808 --> 00:46:22,218
progression will be tilted
towards the high end.

822
00:46:22,218 --> 00:46:23,190
[INAUDIBLE]?

823
00:46:23,190 --> 00:46:23,640
PROFESSOR: Yeah.

824
00:46:23,640 --> 00:46:25,800
So people have looked at that.

825
00:46:28,390 --> 00:46:32,810
Typically, it's difficult
to look at.

826
00:46:32,810 --> 00:46:37,050
Because you could imagine that
very few people who are

827
00:46:37,050 --> 00:46:40,280
wealthy families stop
at third grade.

828
00:46:40,280 --> 00:46:42,990
But to the extent that you can
look at it, you don't see big

829
00:46:42,990 --> 00:46:44,240
differences.

830
00:46:47,050 --> 00:46:50,350
There's some differences, but
not of the order of magnitude

831
00:46:50,350 --> 00:46:52,126
you're suggesting.

832
00:46:52,126 --> 00:46:53,851
AUDIENCE: I was wondering
if anyone has

833
00:46:53,851 --> 00:46:56,070
looked at the peer effects.

834
00:46:56,070 --> 00:46:57,056
Like you have a village.

835
00:46:57,056 --> 00:46:59,028
And there's several families.

836
00:46:59,028 --> 00:47:00,260
And some of them are sending
their kids to school, and

837
00:47:00,260 --> 00:47:01,986
others aren't.

838
00:47:01,986 --> 00:47:05,190
Are there any effects that just
one family sees how the

839
00:47:05,190 --> 00:47:07,409
other kids, look, they're
going to school.

840
00:47:07,409 --> 00:47:07,902
And they seem to be learning.

841
00:47:07,902 --> 00:47:09,381
And they seem to be
accomplishing something.

842
00:47:09,381 --> 00:47:11,860
Do they feel like they're
just wasting their time?

843
00:47:11,860 --> 00:47:13,490
Their parents always complain
[INAUDIBLE].

844
00:47:13,490 --> 00:47:18,370
Are there any effects
between families?

845
00:47:18,370 --> 00:47:19,200
PROFESSOR: Probably.

846
00:47:19,200 --> 00:47:20,110
Nobody's looked.

847
00:47:20,110 --> 00:47:21,340
I mean, people look at this.

848
00:47:21,340 --> 00:47:25,420
But the problem is that when
you study peer effects, the

849
00:47:25,420 --> 00:47:28,480
first problem is that typically,
your peers are not

850
00:47:28,480 --> 00:47:30,090
randomly chosen.

851
00:47:30,090 --> 00:47:34,620
So you hang out with families
that are like yours.

852
00:47:34,620 --> 00:47:39,640
So therefore, the peer effects
tend to be over estimated.

853
00:47:39,640 --> 00:47:43,630
What looked like peer effects
could be just the effect of,

854
00:47:43,630 --> 00:47:45,570
who do you hang out with?

855
00:47:48,880 --> 00:47:54,840
So there's lots of evidence of
peer effects, but not so much

856
00:47:54,840 --> 00:47:55,820
at this level.

857
00:47:55,820 --> 00:47:59,330
Because it's hard to randomly
assign peers.

858
00:47:59,330 --> 00:48:02,080
The one place where you can
randomly assign peers turns

859
00:48:02,080 --> 00:48:04,280
out to be in college.

860
00:48:04,280 --> 00:48:07,860
So there is a nice set of
studies, like of Dartmouth,

861
00:48:07,860 --> 00:48:08,910
for example.

862
00:48:08,910 --> 00:48:11,450
In Dartmouth, there's
a college lottery.

863
00:48:11,450 --> 00:48:14,280
And you get different roommates

864
00:48:14,280 --> 00:48:15,700
based on your lottery.

865
00:48:15,700 --> 00:48:19,410
So if you get roommates who are
more inclined to study,

866
00:48:19,410 --> 00:48:21,090
you're more inclined to study.

867
00:48:21,090 --> 00:48:23,480
You get roommates who are more
inclined to drink, you are

868
00:48:23,480 --> 00:48:25,990
more inclined to drink.

869
00:48:25,990 --> 00:48:29,520
There seems to be clear
evidence of some

870
00:48:29,520 --> 00:48:30,730
kinds of peer effects.

871
00:48:30,730 --> 00:48:35,070
But it's hard to find because
of this reason.

872
00:48:35,070 --> 00:48:37,160
If you look at the data,
it looks like

873
00:48:37,160 --> 00:48:38,200
there's huge peer effects.

874
00:48:38,200 --> 00:48:41,850
If you look in the US, and you
look around Boston, you'll

875
00:48:41,850 --> 00:48:45,850
find that in Somerville, people
who live in Somerville

876
00:48:45,850 --> 00:48:49,790
seem to live with other
people who don't

877
00:48:49,790 --> 00:48:50,675
get much of an education.

878
00:48:50,675 --> 00:48:54,080
And people that live in
Lexington live with other

879
00:48:54,080 --> 00:48:55,580
people that get a lot
of education.

880
00:48:55,580 --> 00:48:58,390
That's not because of
large peer effects.

881
00:48:58,390 --> 00:49:00,940
It's because people who want
to get a lot of education,

882
00:49:00,940 --> 00:49:04,375
good education, go to
live in Lexington.

883
00:49:04,375 --> 00:49:06,680
Or other characteristics of
people who live in Lexington,

884
00:49:06,680 --> 00:49:08,540
rich people live in Lexington.

885
00:49:08,540 --> 00:49:09,730
It's not because of peer.

886
00:49:09,730 --> 00:49:11,480
So peer effects are
hard to detect.

887
00:49:11,480 --> 00:49:14,590
But I think that where people
have tried to look at it, like

888
00:49:14,590 --> 00:49:17,460
with this Dartmouth lotteries
and stuff, they find it.

889
00:49:17,460 --> 00:49:22,973
But it's hard to detect for the
reason we just discussed.

890
00:49:22,973 --> 00:49:24,223
OK.

891
00:49:31,230 --> 00:49:34,920
So now what I want to do is
switch to the teachers.

892
00:49:34,920 --> 00:49:42,390
So we talked about the effect
of this on the parents.

893
00:49:42,390 --> 00:49:44,150
The parents do two things.

894
00:49:44,150 --> 00:49:47,880
One is that they don't invest
in most of their children.

895
00:49:47,880 --> 00:49:50,330
I'll come back to the parents,
actually, later.

896
00:49:50,330 --> 00:49:54,520
And the second is that
they discriminate.

897
00:49:54,520 --> 00:49:57,470
Let's go to the teachers.

898
00:49:57,470 --> 00:49:59,730
Same hypothesis.

899
00:49:59,730 --> 00:50:02,360
Teachers also believe, and
maybe teachers don't

900
00:50:02,360 --> 00:50:05,760
intrinsically have to believe
this, if parents believe that

901
00:50:05,760 --> 00:50:09,570
the only goal of the school is
to get their children to 12th

902
00:50:09,570 --> 00:50:13,180
grade or whatever to get through
school, then teachers

903
00:50:13,180 --> 00:50:14,470
will have the same incentives.

904
00:50:14,470 --> 00:50:17,270
So the teachers will believe
what the parents believe.

905
00:50:17,270 --> 00:50:21,320
Because it doesn't matter
what the truth is.

906
00:50:21,320 --> 00:50:24,970
I'm going to get paid if
the parents like me.

907
00:50:24,970 --> 00:50:27,420
And the parents like
me if I have the

908
00:50:27,420 --> 00:50:28,490
belief that they have.

909
00:50:28,490 --> 00:50:33,480
So it's not clear that the
teachers even need to have the

910
00:50:33,480 --> 00:50:34,620
wrong beliefs.

911
00:50:34,620 --> 00:50:38,550
But I suspect parents,
teachers do

912
00:50:38,550 --> 00:50:40,170
have the wrong belief.

913
00:50:40,170 --> 00:50:42,228
I'll tell you why
in a little bit.

914
00:50:45,860 --> 00:50:51,630
So first thing that that implies
is that teachers will

915
00:50:51,630 --> 00:50:52,880
teach to the top of the class.

916
00:50:57,410 --> 00:51:01,860
If you believe that the goal of
this whole thing is to get

917
00:51:01,860 --> 00:51:05,300
children to complete 12th grade,
and in addition, you

918
00:51:05,300 --> 00:51:09,100
believe that you live in a
country where most people

919
00:51:09,100 --> 00:51:11,640
don't complete 12th grade,
then you're going to say,

920
00:51:11,640 --> 00:51:13,430
well, most people are
not capable of

921
00:51:13,430 --> 00:51:15,470
completing 12th grade.

922
00:51:15,470 --> 00:51:18,850
Because in fact, that's
what you see.

923
00:51:18,850 --> 00:51:20,860
Only 20% complete 12th grade.

924
00:51:20,860 --> 00:51:23,750
In Madagascar, maybe 10%
complete 12th grade.

925
00:51:23,750 --> 00:51:26,940
And you see that, you say that
most people are not going to

926
00:51:26,940 --> 00:51:28,180
complete 12th grade.

927
00:51:28,180 --> 00:51:31,410
So therefore, doesn't make any
sense to try to get the bottom

928
00:51:31,410 --> 00:51:33,880
of the class to--

929
00:51:33,880 --> 00:51:37,650
if I believe A, that completing
12th grade is the

930
00:51:37,650 --> 00:51:43,420
only thing that I care about,
and B, that only a small

931
00:51:43,420 --> 00:51:45,880
fraction of these kids are
capable of reaching 12th

932
00:51:45,880 --> 00:51:49,770
grade, I think both of which
are probably false, but

933
00:51:49,770 --> 00:51:51,760
imagine I believe those
two things.

934
00:51:51,760 --> 00:51:53,010
How should I teach?

935
00:51:56,139 --> 00:51:59,000
I'll teach to the top
of the class.

936
00:51:59,000 --> 00:52:00,790
Because those are the
only people who are

937
00:52:00,790 --> 00:52:01,810
going to make it.

938
00:52:01,810 --> 00:52:05,670
So I might as well concentrate
my resources on that, and

939
00:52:05,670 --> 00:52:06,610
forget about the rest.

940
00:52:06,610 --> 00:52:08,770
The rest are here
as passengers.

941
00:52:08,770 --> 00:52:09,430
They're going to come.

942
00:52:09,430 --> 00:52:10,640
They're going to listen.

943
00:52:10,640 --> 00:52:11,590
They won't get anything.

944
00:52:11,590 --> 00:52:12,340
They'll leave.

945
00:52:12,340 --> 00:52:14,270
I don't really care, because
that's not the goal.

946
00:52:19,010 --> 00:52:26,300
And in particular, there's
a nice instance of this.

947
00:52:26,300 --> 00:52:31,760
I'll talk about an experiment
in a little bit where the

948
00:52:31,760 --> 00:52:35,450
school got an extra teacher,
let's say for eighth grade, or

949
00:52:35,450 --> 00:52:36,430
fourth grade.

950
00:52:36,430 --> 00:52:39,110
And in fourth grade, this
class was split up.

951
00:52:39,110 --> 00:52:44,020
And half the class was given
to the extra teacher.

952
00:52:44,020 --> 00:52:48,750
And half the class was given
to the original teacher.

953
00:52:48,750 --> 00:52:54,690
In some of the schools, it was
done so that the better

954
00:52:54,690 --> 00:52:57,430
performing children went to
one teacher, and the worst

955
00:52:57,430 --> 00:53:00,590
performing children go
to the other teacher.

956
00:53:00,590 --> 00:53:02,040
This was done by lottery.

957
00:53:02,040 --> 00:53:03,130
So there was a lottery.

958
00:53:03,130 --> 00:53:06,320
And one teacher got one, and
the other got the other.

959
00:53:06,320 --> 00:53:09,020
The teacher who got the
bottom half of the

960
00:53:09,020 --> 00:53:12,540
class was really upset.

961
00:53:12,540 --> 00:53:17,590
Because they really believe
this is pointless.

962
00:53:17,590 --> 00:53:21,510
They thought that this was just,
why am I teaching the

963
00:53:21,510 --> 00:53:22,600
bottom half of the class?

964
00:53:22,600 --> 00:53:24,300
There's no point in
teaching them.

965
00:53:24,300 --> 00:53:26,370
Because they, too, believe that
the bottom of the class

966
00:53:26,370 --> 00:53:28,210
can't learn.

967
00:53:28,210 --> 00:53:32,485
Because their whole goal is not
to get them from fourth

968
00:53:32,485 --> 00:53:36,290
grade to fifth grade, but to get
them from fourth grade to

969
00:53:36,290 --> 00:53:36,710
12th grade.

970
00:53:36,710 --> 00:53:39,710
So the goal of teaching, it's
pointless to teach people at

971
00:53:39,710 --> 00:53:40,920
the bottom of the class.

972
00:53:40,920 --> 00:53:44,140
Because people at the bottom
of the class can't learn.

973
00:53:44,140 --> 00:53:46,170
So once you believe that people
at the bottom of the

974
00:53:46,170 --> 00:53:51,525
class can't learn, then you
focus your effort at the top

975
00:53:51,525 --> 00:53:54,350
of the class.

976
00:53:54,350 --> 00:53:58,770
Now as you can imagine, what is
the consequence of that on

977
00:53:58,770 --> 00:54:00,020
the students?

978
00:54:04,240 --> 00:54:11,594
What would that do to students
at the bottom of the class?

979
00:54:11,594 --> 00:54:13,518
AUDIENCE: Well, they were
probably discouraged.

980
00:54:13,518 --> 00:54:18,328
They'd feel more discouraging if
the teacher is actively or

981
00:54:18,328 --> 00:54:21,230
subconsciously [INAUDIBLE].

982
00:54:21,230 --> 00:54:22,016
PROFESSOR: Right.

983
00:54:22,016 --> 00:54:24,310
Is that what you were
going to say?

984
00:54:24,310 --> 00:54:24,800
Yeah.

985
00:54:24,800 --> 00:54:26,560
So they're going to
get discouraged.

986
00:54:26,560 --> 00:54:29,302
Now what happens when they
get discouraged?

987
00:54:29,302 --> 00:54:30,640
AUDIENCE: Poor performance.

988
00:54:30,640 --> 00:54:31,610
PROFESSOR: Sorry?

989
00:54:31,610 --> 00:54:33,293
AUDIENCE: I said poor
performance.

990
00:54:33,293 --> 00:54:35,100
PROFESSOR: They perform
poorly.

991
00:54:35,100 --> 00:54:36,706
What does the teacher think?

992
00:54:36,706 --> 00:54:37,192
AUDIENCE: Stupid.

993
00:54:37,192 --> 00:54:39,136
PROFESSOR: Yeah,
they're stupid.

994
00:54:39,136 --> 00:54:42,060
So it's a vicious cycle.

995
00:54:42,060 --> 00:54:44,160
Because once I believe the start
from this theory, that

996
00:54:44,160 --> 00:54:47,420
the bottom of the class
can't perform, then I

997
00:54:47,420 --> 00:54:48,730
give them no attention.

998
00:54:48,730 --> 00:54:50,100
They're all discouraged.

999
00:54:50,100 --> 00:54:52,390
They're not trying.

1000
00:54:52,390 --> 00:54:53,740
They're doing badly.

1001
00:54:53,740 --> 00:54:55,330
I think they're stupid.

1002
00:54:55,330 --> 00:54:58,180
Then I feel like, you know, I
was right in focusing on the

1003
00:54:58,180 --> 00:54:59,190
top of the class.

1004
00:54:59,190 --> 00:55:04,665
So you get into this vicious
cycle of false beliefs.

1005
00:55:17,590 --> 00:55:22,900
The other thing that this would
mean is that teachers

1006
00:55:22,900 --> 00:55:26,430
also really--

1007
00:55:26,430 --> 00:55:29,560
so teachers also, in class, they
will look for the kids

1008
00:55:29,560 --> 00:55:34,650
who can get to their view of
whatever the goal is, getting

1009
00:55:34,650 --> 00:55:36,090
through high school.

1010
00:55:36,090 --> 00:55:39,320
And if there are a few kids like
that in high school in

1011
00:55:39,320 --> 00:55:43,900
this class, they're going to
stop putting in effort.

1012
00:55:43,900 --> 00:55:46,480
You also expect why teachers
would not put in a lot of

1013
00:55:46,480 --> 00:55:50,310
effort, because they'll think,
look, I got stuck with a bunch

1014
00:55:50,310 --> 00:55:54,200
of dodos who can't learn.

1015
00:55:54,200 --> 00:55:56,550
What am I doing here?

1016
00:55:56,550 --> 00:56:00,580
So once teachers start believing
that children are

1017
00:56:00,580 --> 00:56:05,410
unequal, then you get this
phenomenon that lots of

1018
00:56:05,410 --> 00:56:06,660
teachers also give up.

1019
00:56:10,500 --> 00:56:18,150
So the Pratham experience is,
I think, illuminating here.

1020
00:56:18,150 --> 00:56:22,950
So one of the experiments you
must have talked about was the

1021
00:56:22,950 --> 00:56:25,720
summer school experiment.

1022
00:56:25,720 --> 00:56:28,160
The summer school was basically,
some villages

1023
00:56:28,160 --> 00:56:29,820
randomly got a summer school.

1024
00:56:29,820 --> 00:56:35,810
The teacher was given
some extra money to

1025
00:56:35,810 --> 00:56:37,250
run a summer school.

1026
00:56:37,250 --> 00:56:44,720
This is the same teacher who
teaches in school where the

1027
00:56:44,720 --> 00:56:48,950
schools are very
low performing.

1028
00:56:48,950 --> 00:56:52,950
Yet, when this teacher was given
a small amount of money

1029
00:56:52,950 --> 00:56:57,820
and was asked to run a six weeks
summer school after a

1030
00:56:57,820 --> 00:57:01,160
few days of training, that had
very large effects on the

1031
00:57:01,160 --> 00:57:02,580
children's learning.

1032
00:57:02,580 --> 00:57:05,700
The children who went to summer
school learned a lot.

1033
00:57:05,700 --> 00:57:09,560
So why is it that this teacher
who can teach these children

1034
00:57:09,560 --> 00:57:12,440
quite effectively in summer
school, why doesn't he teach

1035
00:57:12,440 --> 00:57:15,380
them effectively during
the school year?

1036
00:57:18,020 --> 00:57:21,010
What's going on?

1037
00:57:21,010 --> 00:57:26,240
How can it be that the same
teacher, when he teaches

1038
00:57:26,240 --> 00:57:28,770
summer school, he gets
large gains.

1039
00:57:28,770 --> 00:57:38,290
But when he teaches regular
school, he does so badly?

1040
00:57:38,290 --> 00:57:43,590
And one explanation is that in
summer school, his job is to

1041
00:57:43,590 --> 00:57:48,300
attend to the worst performing
children.

1042
00:57:48,300 --> 00:57:52,490
In the regular school, his
perception is that his job is

1043
00:57:52,490 --> 00:57:55,600
to attend to the top
of the class.

1044
00:57:55,600 --> 00:57:57,150
So in the regular year.

1045
00:57:57,150 --> 00:57:58,640
he's not teaching
these children.

1046
00:57:58,640 --> 00:58:00,740
He's teaching the top
of the class.

1047
00:58:00,740 --> 00:58:04,140
When he's actually told, teach
these children, he actually

1048
00:58:04,140 --> 00:58:05,575
can do it just fine.

1049
00:58:05,575 --> 00:58:09,640
It's just that's not what the
system is telling him.

1050
00:58:09,640 --> 00:58:13,290
His view of what his job is is
that I have to get the top of

1051
00:58:13,290 --> 00:58:18,470
the class to learn the entire
curriculum, and be able to get

1052
00:58:18,470 --> 00:58:23,270
into whatever, into a better
high school or something.

1053
00:58:23,270 --> 00:58:25,715
He doesn't see his goal
as teaching the

1054
00:58:25,715 --> 00:58:26,610
bottom of the class.

1055
00:58:26,610 --> 00:58:29,630
When you actually ask him to
teach the bottom of the class,

1056
00:58:29,630 --> 00:58:34,140
when that is his assigned
job, he does just fine.

1057
00:58:34,140 --> 00:58:36,730
So that would also be consistent
with this view that

1058
00:58:36,730 --> 00:58:39,470
the real problem is not that
the teachers don't have the

1059
00:58:39,470 --> 00:58:41,740
incentive to teach, or they
don't want to teach.

1060
00:58:41,740 --> 00:58:44,570
But they're being told to
teach the wrong thing.

1061
00:58:44,570 --> 00:58:49,610
They're trying to teach these
children something that

1062
00:58:49,610 --> 00:58:50,860
actually isn't.

1063
00:58:53,210 --> 00:58:55,450
So here's the experiment
I talked about.

1064
00:58:55,450 --> 00:58:57,740
This is very much
on this point.

1065
00:58:57,740 --> 00:59:04,180
I already talked about this
experiment, 120 schools were

1066
00:59:04,180 --> 00:59:07,680
cut into two, in 60 schools.

1067
00:59:07,680 --> 00:59:09,880
All schools were given
extra teachers.

1068
00:59:12,610 --> 00:59:17,610
And then half of those schools,
the extra teacher was

1069
00:59:17,610 --> 00:59:22,170
assigned to, the class
was split at random.

1070
00:59:22,170 --> 00:59:25,510
So every class, they used
to have one teacher.

1071
00:59:25,510 --> 00:59:26,760
Now they have two teachers.

1072
00:59:29,620 --> 00:59:31,310
Class was split at random.

1073
00:59:31,310 --> 00:59:36,230
So half the class went to one,
half went to the other.

1074
00:59:36,230 --> 00:59:38,410
In the other half of the
schools, they were

1075
00:59:38,410 --> 00:59:39,070
not split at random.

1076
00:59:39,070 --> 00:59:43,140
They were split by baseline
competency.

1077
00:59:43,140 --> 00:59:46,940
So the better performing
children

1078
00:59:46,940 --> 00:59:47,990
were sent to one teacher.

1079
00:59:47,990 --> 00:59:50,180
The worst performing
children were sent

1080
00:59:50,180 --> 00:59:56,550
to the other teacher.

1081
00:59:56,550 --> 00:59:58,060
The teacher assigned
was random.

1082
00:59:58,060 --> 01:00:00,520
So you didn't get a better
teacher or a worst teacher,

1083
01:00:00,520 --> 01:00:06,330
but you got to be in
a classroom with

1084
01:00:06,330 --> 01:00:08,740
children like you.

1085
01:00:08,740 --> 01:00:11,480
What would our theory say about
what's going to happen?

1086
01:00:11,480 --> 01:00:13,490
If you have any of the
top, what would

1087
01:00:13,490 --> 01:00:16,030
happen in this setting?

1088
01:00:16,030 --> 01:00:19,763
AUDIENCE: In both situations,
you teach to the top.

1089
01:00:19,763 --> 01:00:23,837
What it means for the teacher in
the randomly assigned room

1090
01:00:23,837 --> 01:00:27,550
is that the people who were
respectively at the top of the

1091
01:00:27,550 --> 01:00:29,776
class one, they still
get taught to.

1092
01:00:29,776 --> 01:00:32,650
But it means the people, when
it's divided into the high

1093
01:00:32,650 --> 01:00:36,003
performer, low performer, is
you teach the top of that

1094
01:00:36,003 --> 01:00:37,450
little [INAUDIBLE].

1095
01:00:37,450 --> 01:00:38,180
PROFESSOR: Exactly.

1096
01:00:38,180 --> 01:00:42,810
So what this does is, I always
wanted to teach the best four

1097
01:00:42,810 --> 01:00:44,770
people only in the classroom.

1098
01:00:44,770 --> 01:00:47,870
But the best people in the
classroom have changed.

1099
01:00:47,870 --> 01:00:51,400
When I divide the classroom in
this way, the best people in

1100
01:00:51,400 --> 01:00:56,120
the low classroom is someone who
would have never got any

1101
01:00:56,120 --> 01:01:00,260
attention in the original
classroom.

1102
01:01:00,260 --> 01:01:03,030
Or if it was divided
at random, he would

1103
01:01:03,030 --> 01:01:04,830
never be at the top.

1104
01:01:04,830 --> 01:01:08,500
So it changes who
gets attention.

1105
01:01:08,500 --> 01:01:12,210
Moreover, because I'm now paying
attention to somebody

1106
01:01:12,210 --> 01:01:15,410
who's not at the top of the
class but in the middle of the

1107
01:01:15,410 --> 01:01:20,520
class, the children who are at
the bottom of the class are

1108
01:01:20,520 --> 01:01:24,340
more likely to get something
out of the class.

1109
01:01:24,340 --> 01:01:29,510
Because what happens is that
the distance between--

1110
01:01:29,510 --> 01:01:33,480
imagine that this is a class
which has me and someone else.

1111
01:01:33,480 --> 01:01:35,250
And I can't really read.

1112
01:01:35,250 --> 01:01:38,760
And somebody else can
read Shakespeare.

1113
01:01:38,760 --> 01:01:40,890
Now, if you teach to
the top of the

1114
01:01:40,890 --> 01:01:42,470
class, I'll get nothing.

1115
01:01:42,470 --> 01:01:44,767
But if I'm put it in the
classroom with somebody who

1116
01:01:44,767 --> 01:01:48,030
can read a little better
than me, but not that

1117
01:01:48,030 --> 01:01:50,220
much better, then.

1118
01:01:50,220 --> 01:01:53,590
If you teach to him, I'll still
get something out of it

1119
01:01:53,590 --> 01:01:54,840
because I'm closer to him.

1120
01:02:00,396 --> 01:02:02,524
AUDIENCE: Do the teachers
know something?

1121
01:02:02,524 --> 01:02:04,660
That they've got better--

1122
01:02:04,660 --> 01:02:04,780
PROFESSOR: Yeah.

1123
01:02:04,780 --> 01:02:06,180
That's why they were
protesting.

1124
01:02:06,180 --> 01:02:06,720
And I said this before.

1125
01:02:06,720 --> 01:02:08,670
They were actually protesting.

1126
01:02:08,670 --> 01:02:11,620
But once they found out, they
decided fine, we'll teach the

1127
01:02:11,620 --> 01:02:13,060
best of this class.

1128
01:02:13,060 --> 01:02:16,230
But the best of this class is
still much less different from

1129
01:02:16,230 --> 01:02:20,050
the worst of this class, then
the difference between the

1130
01:02:20,050 --> 01:02:22,180
best and the worst in
the original class.

1131
01:02:22,180 --> 01:02:24,980
So even the worst in this class
gets something out of

1132
01:02:24,980 --> 01:02:27,480
the teaching, where you would
have got nothing before.

1133
01:02:31,890 --> 01:02:36,300
AUDIENCE: So do you think that
it'd be more effective to try

1134
01:02:36,300 --> 01:02:39,730
to re-educate teachers such
that they don't have the

1135
01:02:39,730 --> 01:02:42,180
attitude that they only teach
to the top of the class?

1136
01:02:42,180 --> 01:02:45,610
Or is it better just to accept
that as a reality, sort of

1137
01:02:45,610 --> 01:02:47,080
like in this survey.

1138
01:02:47,080 --> 01:02:49,040
And then just trying to make
some circumstance to get a

1139
01:02:49,040 --> 01:02:50,530
[INAUDIBLE]?

1140
01:02:50,530 --> 01:02:52,330
PROFESSOR: That's an
excellent question.

1141
01:02:52,330 --> 01:02:57,840
I guess my view is that it's
difficult to get the teachers

1142
01:02:57,840 --> 01:03:03,980
to believe that they should have
a different attitude as

1143
01:03:03,980 --> 01:03:05,950
long as parents have
that attitude.

1144
01:03:05,950 --> 01:03:07,710
So you need to start
with the parents.

1145
01:03:07,710 --> 01:03:09,430
Because after all, the
demand for education

1146
01:03:09,430 --> 01:03:11,310
comes from the parents.

1147
01:03:11,310 --> 01:03:13,620
So the parents are
the ones who are

1148
01:03:13,620 --> 01:03:15,760
demanding this education.

1149
01:03:15,760 --> 01:03:22,050
So in other words, to go back
to where we started, in this

1150
01:03:22,050 --> 01:03:24,620
view, what's wrong with the
school system is that the

1151
01:03:24,620 --> 01:03:30,580
parents think that there's no
point in educating their

1152
01:03:30,580 --> 01:03:34,350
children unless the children
are good enough to graduate

1153
01:03:34,350 --> 01:03:35,380
high school.

1154
01:03:35,380 --> 01:03:39,000
Therefore, they want the entire
education system to

1155
01:03:39,000 --> 01:03:41,940
focus on the few people in the
classroom who are high

1156
01:03:41,940 --> 01:03:45,311
performing, and ignore
the rest.

1157
01:03:45,311 --> 01:03:47,870
If that's what the parents
want, the teachers will

1158
01:03:47,870 --> 01:03:48,680
deliver that.

1159
01:03:48,680 --> 01:03:50,670
And it's going to get
too hard to get them

1160
01:03:50,670 --> 01:03:51,660
to do anything else.

1161
01:03:51,660 --> 01:03:54,280
You'll first have to start with
persuading parents that

1162
01:03:54,280 --> 01:03:57,490
even if their child is not going
to get to high school,

1163
01:03:57,490 --> 01:03:58,720
he still should be educated.

1164
01:03:58,720 --> 01:04:02,900
I think that's sort of
the, I think, this--

1165
01:04:08,510 --> 01:04:11,910
so in fact, that's exactly
what they found.

1166
01:04:11,910 --> 01:04:18,230
They found that when you do
this, when you divide this

1167
01:04:18,230 --> 01:04:21,720
class up, everybody benefits.

1168
01:04:21,720 --> 01:04:23,190
The top children benefit.

1169
01:04:23,190 --> 01:04:26,570
Because they're now
being taught.

1170
01:04:26,570 --> 01:04:29,180
The teacher is focusing
on them.

1171
01:04:29,180 --> 01:04:32,700
The top children of the bottom
class benefit, because the

1172
01:04:32,700 --> 01:04:34,930
teacher is benefiting
from them.

1173
01:04:34,930 --> 01:04:38,180
The bottom children of the top
class benefit, because they

1174
01:04:38,180 --> 01:04:42,630
are now closer to the top
of their own classroom.

1175
01:04:42,630 --> 01:04:45,100
And the bottom children in the
bottom class benefit because

1176
01:04:45,100 --> 01:04:47,090
they are closer to the top
of their classroom.

1177
01:04:47,090 --> 01:04:51,150
So everybody is better
off in this outcome.

1178
01:04:51,150 --> 01:04:58,080
Because as long as you can't
force the teachers to teach

1179
01:04:58,080 --> 01:05:01,610
the bottom, then what you can
do, next best thing, is to

1180
01:05:01,610 --> 01:05:05,250
bring the bottom closer
to the top.

1181
01:05:05,250 --> 01:05:06,895
And this is what this does.

1182
01:05:06,895 --> 01:05:09,230
If teachers are going to teach
to the top, then you should

1183
01:05:09,230 --> 01:05:10,890
try to have classrooms
where the bottom is

1184
01:05:10,890 --> 01:05:13,290
close to the stop.

1185
01:05:13,290 --> 01:05:14,210
And that's what you see.

1186
01:05:14,210 --> 01:05:18,180
The evidence is very clear,
everyone benefits from

1187
01:05:18,180 --> 01:05:19,430
creating these tracks.

1188
01:05:25,290 --> 01:05:27,060
This is the table.

1189
01:05:27,060 --> 01:05:28,250
I won't go through it.

1190
01:05:28,250 --> 01:05:29,500
Because we're going to
run out of time.

1191
01:05:34,180 --> 01:05:37,820
This has already we've said.

1192
01:05:37,820 --> 01:05:43,120
Who else gets hurt by this is
the children, obviously.

1193
01:05:43,120 --> 01:05:58,160
The children get hurt because
they get discouraged.

1194
01:05:58,160 --> 01:05:59,630
Most children get discouraged.

1195
01:05:59,630 --> 01:06:01,690
Because they think education
is not for them.

1196
01:06:04,410 --> 01:06:08,440
And this is especially true in
historically discriminated

1197
01:06:08,440 --> 01:06:09,150
populations.

1198
01:06:09,150 --> 01:06:12,600
So historically the
discriminated populations in

1199
01:06:12,600 --> 01:06:19,850
many countries tend to be either
by race or in India,

1200
01:06:19,850 --> 01:06:25,800
it's by caste, or girls,
depending on the particular

1201
01:06:25,800 --> 01:06:27,910
structure of discrimination.

1202
01:06:27,910 --> 01:06:31,670
Historically, discriminated
populations tend to already

1203
01:06:31,670 --> 01:06:35,920
assume that since they have very
few people who have been

1204
01:06:35,920 --> 01:06:39,310
educated, they assume that
that's perhaps because they

1205
01:06:39,310 --> 01:06:41,230
have no talent for it.

1206
01:06:41,230 --> 01:06:43,720
And then if you go and
tell them, look.

1207
01:06:46,965 --> 01:06:52,010
So another way to put it is that
if you happen to be from

1208
01:06:52,010 --> 01:06:56,090
a family who believe that you
can be educated, then if the

1209
01:06:56,090 --> 01:06:58,420
teacher says, you're stupid,
they won't believe it.

1210
01:06:58,420 --> 01:06:59,900
They're going to go and argue
with the teacher.

1211
01:06:59,900 --> 01:07:05,905
And say, look, in my family,
everybody has a Ph.D. What do

1212
01:07:05,905 --> 01:07:07,520
you mean, my son is stupid?

1213
01:07:07,520 --> 01:07:11,090
Whereas if you're actually from
a family where no one has

1214
01:07:11,090 --> 01:07:15,680
an education, it's much easier
to persuade them that their

1215
01:07:15,680 --> 01:07:18,050
child is not fit
for education.

1216
01:07:18,050 --> 01:07:20,590
So what you're going to do is
you're going to reinforce

1217
01:07:20,590 --> 01:07:22,760
stereotypes in society.

1218
01:07:22,760 --> 01:07:26,170
Because who's going to believe
you when you say

1219
01:07:26,170 --> 01:07:27,740
your child is stupid?

1220
01:07:27,740 --> 01:07:30,790
It's going to be the people
who have been told

1221
01:07:30,790 --> 01:07:33,590
historically that they're
not fit for education.

1222
01:07:33,590 --> 01:07:35,710
They're going to be the most
likely to believe you.

1223
01:07:35,710 --> 01:07:44,110
So this kind of stereotype, the
existing stereotype will

1224
01:07:44,110 --> 01:07:48,050
be reinforced by, if you give
people the message that their

1225
01:07:48,050 --> 01:07:50,480
child is stupid, the existing
stereotype would get

1226
01:07:50,480 --> 01:07:51,420
reinforced.

1227
01:07:51,420 --> 01:07:54,350
So that's something that
you see a lot.

1228
01:07:54,350 --> 01:07:59,300
You see that the parents in
these kind of very poor

1229
01:07:59,300 --> 01:08:02,030
families tend to be more
likely to believe these

1230
01:08:02,030 --> 01:08:05,530
negative stereotypes
of their children.

1231
01:08:05,530 --> 01:08:08,210
Another thing that this would
explain is why children don't

1232
01:08:08,210 --> 01:08:10,770
come to school.

1233
01:08:10,770 --> 01:08:14,430
One thing that people don't
emphasize is how rarely

1234
01:08:14,430 --> 01:08:15,680
children show up in school.

1235
01:08:22,710 --> 01:08:34,270
A lot of children basically
completely don't believe that

1236
01:08:34,270 --> 01:08:35,560
school is for them.

1237
01:08:35,560 --> 01:08:37,750
And they may be enrolled
in school.

1238
01:08:37,750 --> 01:08:42,270
So on a given day, up to 50% of
the children don't show up

1239
01:08:42,270 --> 01:08:43,094
in a class.

1240
01:08:43,094 --> 01:08:46,720
Now, that's also true at MIT, as
it turns out, but probably

1241
01:08:46,720 --> 01:08:47,970
not for the same reasons.

1242
01:08:52,080 --> 01:08:58,270
But many of these children
basically

1243
01:08:58,270 --> 01:08:59,830
hate being in school.

1244
01:08:59,830 --> 01:09:02,100
And they hate being in school
for the right reason, which is

1245
01:09:02,100 --> 01:09:05,109
that they're constantly being
told that this is not for you.

1246
01:09:07,770 --> 01:09:13,399
One interesting additional fact
that was, this goes back

1247
01:09:13,399 --> 01:09:17,010
to the stereotype, this
is a nice experiment.

1248
01:09:17,010 --> 01:09:21,359
So children were asked
to solve mazes.

1249
01:09:21,359 --> 01:09:24,240
You know what mazes are?

1250
01:09:24,240 --> 01:09:26,770
Like these things where you
have to draw a line, and

1251
01:09:26,770 --> 01:09:28,859
there's a point of entry
and a point of exit.

1252
01:09:28,859 --> 01:09:31,279
And you have to find
your way out of it.

1253
01:09:31,279 --> 01:09:33,270
So they were given these mazes
and asked to solve them.

1254
01:09:33,270 --> 01:09:34,100
I've done this, actually.

1255
01:09:34,100 --> 01:09:34,850
It's fun to do.

1256
01:09:34,850 --> 01:09:39,380
You can take a bunch of sheets
and get people in the village

1257
01:09:39,380 --> 01:09:42,910
to give their kids, and get
them to solve them.

1258
01:09:42,910 --> 01:09:45,609
And it's a very good
test of cognitive

1259
01:09:45,609 --> 01:09:47,220
abilities, it turns out.

1260
01:09:47,220 --> 01:09:50,950
So that's what people
usually do.

1261
01:09:50,950 --> 01:09:54,410
Now, somebody has a good idea
of trying to follow it.

1262
01:09:54,410 --> 01:09:58,140
They went to a village in India,
and they got together a

1263
01:09:58,140 --> 01:10:02,450
group of historically low caste
people, people who were

1264
01:10:02,450 --> 01:10:04,000
discriminated against.

1265
01:10:04,000 --> 01:10:06,800
And combined them with people
from high castes, and put them

1266
01:10:06,800 --> 01:10:08,960
in the same group.

1267
01:10:08,960 --> 01:10:12,910
And one experiment, they just
asked them, play the maze.

1268
01:10:12,910 --> 01:10:14,060
Do the maze.

1269
01:10:14,060 --> 01:10:15,560
And they found no difference
between high

1270
01:10:15,560 --> 01:10:16,700
caste and low caste.

1271
01:10:16,700 --> 01:10:19,650
They got the exactly
same scores.

1272
01:10:19,650 --> 01:10:21,910
Not everybody didn't get the
same score, obviously, but on

1273
01:10:21,910 --> 01:10:23,920
average, there was
no difference.

1274
01:10:23,920 --> 01:10:28,710
Second experiment, before they
play the game, everybody was

1275
01:10:28,710 --> 01:10:31,450
asked their caste.

1276
01:10:31,450 --> 01:10:32,700
So caste was made salient.

1277
01:10:36,920 --> 01:10:40,870
And immediately, you see
a big difference.

1278
01:10:40,870 --> 01:10:42,740
You see that the people
who were historically

1279
01:10:42,740 --> 01:10:45,070
discriminated self-discriminate.

1280
01:10:45,070 --> 01:10:46,840
They start playing badly.

1281
01:10:46,840 --> 01:10:49,690
They believe that they can't
compete with the other guys.

1282
01:10:49,690 --> 01:10:51,430
And they do much worse.

1283
01:10:51,430 --> 01:10:54,200
So once you make caste salient,
it's exactly this

1284
01:10:54,200 --> 01:11:01,170
fact that once you prime my
belief that I already am

1285
01:11:01,170 --> 01:11:04,340
unsure whether I can do these
things, you prime my belief

1286
01:11:04,340 --> 01:11:05,900
that I am from a particular
caste.

1287
01:11:05,900 --> 01:11:09,220
I'm playing against these guys
from a superior caste.

1288
01:11:09,220 --> 01:11:12,310
I'm just going to think
I'm going to lose.

1289
01:11:12,310 --> 01:11:15,110
And it's very simple.

1290
01:11:15,110 --> 01:11:19,030
You just have to get them to
remember what their caste is.

1291
01:11:19,030 --> 01:11:21,710
And there's another experiment
which is also interesting.

1292
01:11:21,710 --> 01:11:26,680
I'll just say that
and then move on.

1293
01:11:26,680 --> 01:11:29,280
In another experiment, teachers
were asked to grade

1294
01:11:29,280 --> 01:11:31,060
the same paper.

1295
01:11:31,060 --> 01:11:35,070
And in some, they were told that
the paper was from a high

1296
01:11:35,070 --> 01:11:36,290
caste person.

1297
01:11:36,290 --> 01:11:40,340
And some, they were told that
the same paper was from a low

1298
01:11:40,340 --> 01:11:41,310
caste person.

1299
01:11:41,310 --> 01:11:44,680
Same paper, exact same paper,
photo copy of the same thing

1300
01:11:44,680 --> 01:11:47,900
with the same answers, but
you're asked to grade it.

1301
01:11:47,900 --> 01:11:50,830
And in one case, I said, this
is from Caste A, the other

1302
01:11:50,830 --> 01:11:53,310
case, I say it's from Caste B.

1303
01:11:53,310 --> 01:11:54,560
That was the experiment.

1304
01:11:59,280 --> 01:12:02,375
Then the teachers themselves,
some of them were from a high

1305
01:12:02,375 --> 01:12:04,210
caste, and some of them
were low caste.

1306
01:12:04,210 --> 01:12:06,570
Who do you think
discriminated?

1307
01:12:06,570 --> 01:12:07,820
What was the pattern
of discrimination?

1308
01:12:10,619 --> 01:12:13,577
AUDIENCE: I'm guessing the
high class discriminated

1309
01:12:13,577 --> 01:12:15,060
against the low class.

1310
01:12:15,060 --> 01:12:16,820
PROFESSOR: Turns out
the opposite.

1311
01:12:16,820 --> 01:12:18,460
The low class discriminated
against the low class.

1312
01:12:18,460 --> 01:12:23,310
Low class were scoring their
own caste people lower.

1313
01:12:23,310 --> 01:12:27,540
Because they also believe
that people from their

1314
01:12:27,540 --> 01:12:30,110
caste cannot do it.

1315
01:12:30,110 --> 01:12:32,920
So you have this underlying
stereotype.

1316
01:12:32,920 --> 01:12:37,940
And now you prime that by
saying, this kid is stupid.

1317
01:12:37,940 --> 01:12:39,380
What are they going to do?

1318
01:12:39,380 --> 01:12:40,700
They're going to give
up very quickly.

1319
01:12:40,700 --> 01:12:42,980
As they already believe that
they are not really

1320
01:12:42,980 --> 01:12:44,670
capable of doing it.

1321
01:12:44,670 --> 01:12:48,121
AUDIENCE: In the maze
experiment, did the results

1322
01:12:48,121 --> 01:12:50,586
from the high caste
[INAUDIBLE]

1323
01:12:50,586 --> 01:12:52,558
change [INAUDIBLE]?

1324
01:12:52,558 --> 01:12:56,122
PROFESSOR: I think they went
down, if I remember correctly.

1325
01:12:56,122 --> 01:12:59,086
They went down, but the
others went down.

1326
01:12:59,086 --> 01:13:03,540
AUDIENCE: In the grade paper
example, did the high caste

1327
01:13:03,540 --> 01:13:06,358
graders discriminate also
against the low caste?

1328
01:13:06,358 --> 01:13:07,820
PROFESSOR: No.

1329
01:13:07,820 --> 01:13:09,650
No discrimination from
the high caste.

1330
01:13:09,650 --> 01:13:10,770
Only the low caste--

1331
01:13:10,770 --> 01:13:14,006
AUDIENCE: Did they grade the
high caste papers any higher?

1332
01:13:14,006 --> 01:13:14,469
PROFESSOR: No.

1333
01:13:14,469 --> 01:13:15,395
AUDIENCE: OK.

1334
01:13:15,395 --> 01:13:18,135
PROFESSOR: Zero effect
of the high caste.

1335
01:13:18,135 --> 01:13:20,650
Only the low caste teachers
discriminated against the low

1336
01:13:20,650 --> 01:13:22,440
caste students.

1337
01:13:22,440 --> 01:13:24,780
It was dramatically--

1338
01:13:24,780 --> 01:13:25,980
it's not what I expected.

1339
01:13:25,980 --> 01:13:27,840
But it does show this

1340
01:13:27,840 --> 01:13:30,240
self-discrimination is very powerful.

1341
01:13:30,240 --> 01:13:32,860
The reason I emphasize that is
that that's the problem here.

1342
01:13:32,860 --> 01:13:36,550
Once I have a classroom full
of kids who are being told

1343
01:13:36,550 --> 01:13:39,763
they're stupid, the ones who
are from a high caste are

1344
01:13:39,763 --> 01:13:45,220
going to say, look, I know my
grandfather was a religious

1345
01:13:45,220 --> 01:13:47,700
teacher, and my father's
a religious teacher.

1346
01:13:47,700 --> 01:13:49,340
I know I am fit for education.

1347
01:13:49,340 --> 01:13:50,080
I'm going to continue.

1348
01:13:50,080 --> 01:13:53,640
It's the people who have weak
self-belief who are going to

1349
01:13:53,640 --> 01:13:57,640
be hurt by a system which
basically discriminates

1350
01:13:57,640 --> 01:13:58,890
against them.