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PROFESSOR: Let's get started.

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How about the spring weather?

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AUDIENCE: Oh, yeah.

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[LAUGHTER]

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PROFESSOR: Tomorrow.

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AUDIENCE: Someone needs
to tell New England

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that it's the end of April
and it's got to warm up.

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PROFESSOR: Yes.

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It's getting boring now.

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We need the spring
weather to come quickly.

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Right.

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Good.

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Great.

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So let's see.

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So today we have the pleasure
to have Professor Noelle

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Selin to lead the lecture.

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And Professor Selin is
not only a professor

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of [INAUDIBLE] systems
division, but also

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the Department of Earth,
Atmospheric and Planetary

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Sciences.

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So Noelle previous was on
modeling of air pollution.

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And has been doing
lots of work on how

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to develop an understanding of
policy related to air quality

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and pollution,
specifically of mercury.

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And through work,
she has observed

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firsthand international
negotiations of policy--

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basically how this
[INAUDIBLE] is done, I guess.

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A policy meeting,
where you really

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see all the parties
getting together.

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And they the role off
science and ultimately

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how these effects how to
look at a global scale.

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And as we have been talking
throughout the course,

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one of the aspects that is new
from a business perspective

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00:01:51,910 --> 00:01:54,490
as you get into
environmental topics

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is you have to interface
more with stakeholders

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or in other traditional ways.

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So last lecture we had a
chance to hear from EDF, NGOs.

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EDF is of the nice kind of NGO.

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From a business perspective,
they want to engage,

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but [INAUDIBLE] attack.

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On opposing front, as a company
you also need to understand

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what kind of shape could
policy take in the future,

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and what is the
role of business?

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How could this impact business?

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Especially how it impacts
supply chains are global.

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So with that, Noelle,
the floor is yours.

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And thank you for coming.

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NOELLE SELIN: Great.

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So I want to right off
that I don't know much

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about supply chains.

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So I'm hoping that this can
be very much a discussion.

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I'm hoping to
learn from you guys

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as well as talking to you
a little bit about mercury.

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AUDIENCE: Switch
your microphone.

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NOELLE SELIN: How do I do that?

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Can you hear me now?

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All right.

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So why is the case of mercury
interesting in the context

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of sort of international
business supply

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chain regulation?

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Well, mercury is the
latest, the most recent

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global environmental treaty.

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So the Minamata
Convention, which

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is an international
convention on Mercury,

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was signed just this
past October, 2013.

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And it is widely
thought of as it's

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the first real new global
environmental treaty

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in over a decade.

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The previous one was also on
a chemicals related topic,

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the Stockholm Convention.

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So it's an example of
international environmental

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cooperation of which
we don't have a lot.

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We don't have a lot of concrete
stuff coming out of the climate

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negotiations right now.

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But this is a brand new
agreed global treaty.

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And it's widely thought of
as the first entire life

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cycle international convention.

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So I'm going to talk
about that in that context

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and how it emerged, what some
of the science behind it is,

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and how it might influence
thinking about chemicals

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regulation in a product
context, because products

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are a core area--
mercury in products

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are a core area of
mercury regulation

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under the convention.

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I'm going to talk a little
bit about the interface

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as well between
domestic regulation

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in the US,
international regulation

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in the European
Union context, which

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sort of is a
sub-global regulation,

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and how that interfaces
with the global context.

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So that's sort of where
I'm planning to go.

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Please feel free to interrupt
me if you have questions

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or want to go in
different directions.

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So what I'm going to
start with is just

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a little bit about the
scientific backgrounds.

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And we're on the
same page on why

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we're concerned
about mercury, why

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we're having a global treaty
on mercury in the first place.

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The reason that mercury
is a global problem

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is the mercury
that we're emitting

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doesn't stay within our borders.

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So the main criteria for having
an environmental regulation

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00:04:54,060 --> 00:04:56,479
internationally-- there's
a general principle

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of international law that
you can do whatever you

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want within your own borders.

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If you're ruining
your own environment,

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00:05:01,880 --> 00:05:04,120
it's kind of your problem.

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00:05:04,120 --> 00:05:07,730
But the minute you start ruining
other people's environments,

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that's when it's subject
to international concern.

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So if you just emitted
mercury deposited right next

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to your power plant or
something and contaminated

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your local environment,
it wouldn't necessarily

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be subject to
international regulation.

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But mercury in the atmosphere
is in a pretty volatile form.

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And mercury when you're
emitting it's to the atmosphere,

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lasts for about half
the year to a year.

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00:05:32,700 --> 00:05:35,180
So that means it blows around.

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And it blows around
pretty much globally.

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00:05:38,100 --> 00:05:40,870
If you think about
watching the weather map

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and about how far weather
goes in different winds,

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you get about 7 to 10 days to
go across continents basically.

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So in about six months, you
can imagine that something

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that lasts in the atmosphere
that long is going

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to mix pretty effectively.

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Intra-hemispheric mixing time
is about half the year to a year

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00:06:02,990 --> 00:06:03,934
as well.

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So anything emitted in
the northern hemisphere

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is going to go to the
southern hemisphere too.

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So mercury all over the
world in the atmosphere.

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Now the reason it's a
problem is because of what

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happens when it rains out.

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When it rains out, it
accumulates in ecosystems.

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It turns into methyl mercury.

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Methyl mercury is even
more toxic than mercury.

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It builds up in food chains--
goes into little fish,

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big fish eat the little fish.

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00:06:31,100 --> 00:06:33,100
In the Arctic, there's a
really long food chain.

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Polar bears eat the big
seals, people eat seals,

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you get high levels of
a neurotoxin of concern.

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So methyl mercury
is a neurotoxin.

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It has effects on people's IQs--
in particular, pregnant women

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who consume things high in
mercury, particularly fish,

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during pregnancy,
their offspring

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have neurological impacts
even at of background doses.

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Lower IQ outputs.

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So this comes from a range
of epidemiological studies.

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More recently, lest you
think all of you might be off

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the hook, cardiovascular
impacts in the general adult

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population.

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Some mercury is bad
for everyone, not just

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pregnant women and kids.

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I'll talk a little bit about
gold mining communities.

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Mercury's used in artisanal
and small scale gold mining.

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And mercury itself,
at really high levels,

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can also be very dangerous if
you breathe in too much of it,

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but not really acutely
toxic in the concentrations

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that we might likely
be exposed to.

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So although it's a concern
to break a thermometer

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and you shouldn't
go and sniff it,

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you're not going
to expect to see

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effects at that
kind of a dosage,

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and particularly not at
the dosage of ambient air

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concentrations.

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But once it gets
into methyl mercury,

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once it gets into the food
chain, you have a problem.

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Now think about sort
of what's happened

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over the last several
decades in terms of where

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mercury is coming from.

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So you have mercury
that's used in products.

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Mercury has been
used for millennia.

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In cinnabar ore, which is the
really red rock, used as a dye,

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mercury was used in hat making.

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It was used in mining all the
way back to the Roman times.

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So it's a very useful substance.

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But one of the really recent
things that's happened

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is that mercury is also
a contaminant in coal.

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So if you look at what's
happened in the Arctic,

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you can look at
the concentration--

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this is kind of squished.

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This is sort of
normalized to levels

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you can look in various
different archives.

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So what happens when they
find the unfrozen polar bear,

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they can actually look at
what the concentrations are

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00:09:07,280 --> 00:09:08,980
in the unfrozen
polar bear that died

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00:09:08,980 --> 00:09:12,320
in the 1200s over here
that was stuck in the ice

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and they found him, as opposed
to current day polar bears,

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00:09:15,950 --> 00:09:18,220
as opposed to the
museum polar bears

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00:09:18,220 --> 00:09:20,100
that they killed in the 1800s.

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And you can track that with
things like falcon feathers

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and ringed seal teeth
and various things.

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AUDIENCE: What exactly does
the percent concentration mean?

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00:09:27,846 --> 00:09:29,760
Surely, human teeth
are not pure mercury.

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NOELLE SELIN: Right.

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So it's normalized to
present day levels at 100%.

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00:09:34,290 --> 00:09:36,240
So because the
concentration just

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00:09:36,240 --> 00:09:37,902
to show everything
on the same scale,

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00:09:37,902 --> 00:09:39,735
because the concentration
in polar bear hair

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00:09:39,735 --> 00:09:41,490
is obviously different
from feathers,

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00:09:41,490 --> 00:09:42,780
is different from teeth.

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00:09:42,780 --> 00:09:46,550
So with 100% present
day concentrations,

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00:09:46,550 --> 00:09:52,866
this is how much it would
have increased relative to.

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00:09:52,866 --> 00:09:58,980
So we can do modeling of what
happens in the atmosphere when

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00:09:58,980 --> 00:10:03,620
you emit mercury and it blows
around all over the place.

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00:10:03,620 --> 00:10:06,170
This is what the global
cycle looks like.

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00:10:06,170 --> 00:10:09,360
It comes from some
of my modelling work.

213
00:10:09,360 --> 00:10:12,581
But again, you're
looking in the Arctic

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00:10:12,581 --> 00:10:14,080
where there aren't
a lot of sources.

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00:10:14,080 --> 00:10:15,410
You have a lot of increases.

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00:10:15,410 --> 00:10:18,040
You have health
effects that you can

217
00:10:18,040 --> 00:10:20,447
estimate hundreds of thousands
of new ones every year.

218
00:10:20,447 --> 00:10:22,905
So there's growing scientific
concern about this substance.

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00:10:25,530 --> 00:10:27,260
So now what you do about it?

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00:10:27,260 --> 00:10:29,344
You've got mercury
used in a whole range

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00:10:29,344 --> 00:10:30,260
of different products.

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00:10:30,260 --> 00:10:32,710
You've got mercury
coming out of coal.

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00:10:32,710 --> 00:10:36,240
You want to figure out how
it gets into the atmosphere.

224
00:10:36,240 --> 00:10:39,780
So you do something like
an emissions inventory.

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00:10:39,780 --> 00:10:41,770
And this is what
the UN Environment

226
00:10:41,770 --> 00:10:44,430
Program put together on
anthropogenic emissions

227
00:10:44,430 --> 00:10:46,380
to the air.

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00:10:46,380 --> 00:10:48,080
Coal being about a quarter.

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00:10:48,080 --> 00:10:50,625
This is this artisanal and
small scale gold production.

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00:10:50,625 --> 00:10:53,030
I'll talk a little bit
more in detail about that

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00:10:53,030 --> 00:10:54,897
and how they get
their mercury later.

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00:10:54,897 --> 00:10:56,480
The really interesting
part about this

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00:10:56,480 --> 00:10:59,530
is we didn't realize that
that was such a big chunk.

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00:10:59,530 --> 00:11:03,540
I've been working on mercury
for over 10 years now.

235
00:11:03,540 --> 00:11:08,110
10 years ago, that wasn't
even in our inventory.

236
00:11:08,110 --> 00:11:11,176
So realizing how much
mercury was actually

237
00:11:11,176 --> 00:11:12,550
admitted to the
global atmosphere

238
00:11:12,550 --> 00:11:14,990
from these gold
mining communities

239
00:11:14,990 --> 00:11:18,020
was actually a big step.

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00:11:18,020 --> 00:11:22,230
And you've got a bunch of
other different all kinds

241
00:11:22,230 --> 00:11:25,470
of uses of mercury, uses in
the chloralkali industry.

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00:11:25,470 --> 00:11:27,950
Disposal of waste for
mercury containing products

243
00:11:27,950 --> 00:11:30,130
is a chunk of
emissions to the air.

244
00:11:30,130 --> 00:11:36,270
Also important in emissions
to water, releases to water.

245
00:11:36,270 --> 00:11:39,561
Cremation is always
an interesting one.

246
00:11:39,561 --> 00:11:41,160
You got mercury in your teeth.

247
00:11:41,160 --> 00:11:42,330
Guess where that goes?

248
00:11:42,330 --> 00:11:43,249
Yeah?

249
00:11:43,249 --> 00:11:44,790
AUDIENCE: Being a
heavy metal, what's

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00:11:44,790 --> 00:11:50,960
the mechanism by which say
someone mining for gold-- I

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00:11:50,960 --> 00:11:53,505
assuming it has to be
highly atomized to be

252
00:11:53,505 --> 00:11:55,942
able to go into the
atmosphere and travel a ways.

253
00:11:55,942 --> 00:11:57,900
NOELLE SELIN: So mercury's
a funky heavy metal.

254
00:11:57,900 --> 00:12:01,920
It's the only one that's
liquid at room temperature,

255
00:12:01,920 --> 00:12:05,440
so you've got elemental mercury
that you can-- basically

256
00:12:05,440 --> 00:12:08,210
thermometer kind of
elemental mercury.

257
00:12:08,210 --> 00:12:13,250
And if you put that in a pan
with gold, it'll form amalgam.

258
00:12:13,250 --> 00:12:15,940
And then all you have to
do, you take that amalgam,

259
00:12:15,940 --> 00:12:18,979
you burn, and mercury
will burn off.

260
00:12:18,979 --> 00:12:19,895
AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE].

261
00:12:19,895 --> 00:12:20,880
NOELLE SELIN: Yeah.

262
00:12:20,880 --> 00:12:23,310
So sometimes that's
done in gold shops.

263
00:12:23,310 --> 00:12:26,316
And I'll have a slide
later about the process

264
00:12:26,316 --> 00:12:27,440
and where the mercury goes.

265
00:12:27,440 --> 00:12:29,690
But that's essentially
the principal.

266
00:12:29,690 --> 00:12:30,940
And that's why it goes to air.

267
00:12:30,940 --> 00:12:34,140
Of course, there's going
to be some rinsing.

268
00:12:34,140 --> 00:12:37,760
And that's why that numbers are
all uncertain, because again,

269
00:12:37,760 --> 00:12:43,260
this is a sector that's
not very regulated

270
00:12:43,260 --> 00:12:44,900
where the mercury ends up.

271
00:12:44,900 --> 00:12:47,550
AUDIENCE: Why was it overlooked?

272
00:12:47,550 --> 00:12:50,902
What changed that made it
show up in the rater again?

273
00:12:50,902 --> 00:12:55,180
NOELLE SELIN: So
it was whether it

274
00:12:55,180 --> 00:12:58,240
goes to air was the
question, and what fraction,

275
00:12:58,240 --> 00:12:59,800
and how much is used.

276
00:12:59,800 --> 00:13:01,550
So there weren't
very good estimates

277
00:13:01,550 --> 00:13:03,780
because this is generally
kind of an illegal sector

278
00:13:03,780 --> 00:13:08,660
in a lot of places, or at least
an unregulated informal one.

279
00:13:08,660 --> 00:13:11,882
So it may actually have
increased over time

280
00:13:11,882 --> 00:13:13,090
because of the price of gold.

281
00:13:16,420 --> 00:13:18,710
There's more money
to be made in mining

282
00:13:18,710 --> 00:13:22,710
gold, so more use of mercury.

283
00:13:22,710 --> 00:13:26,610
And then what fraction you
assume of how much people

284
00:13:26,610 --> 00:13:30,503
actually keep versus
how much they burn off

285
00:13:30,503 --> 00:13:33,390
has changed over time.

286
00:13:33,390 --> 00:13:35,570
And just the
difficulty in-- it's

287
00:13:35,570 --> 00:13:39,020
pretty easy to get
coal statistics.

288
00:13:39,020 --> 00:13:41,760
Actually, I was one
of the first ones

289
00:13:41,760 --> 00:13:45,760
to actually put an estimate
into a global model of artisanal

290
00:13:45,760 --> 00:13:47,330
and small scale gold mining.

291
00:13:47,330 --> 00:13:49,700
And what I did is I just
took the total amount that

292
00:13:49,700 --> 00:13:52,919
was used, which we had
estimates of, and I said,

293
00:13:52,919 --> 00:13:54,710
these are the countries
in which it's used.

294
00:13:54,710 --> 00:13:56,840
We're going to assume
30% goes to the air

295
00:13:56,840 --> 00:13:58,080
and I'm just going
to grid it, because I

296
00:13:58,080 --> 00:13:59,060
didn't know what to do with it.

297
00:13:59,060 --> 00:14:00,920
Now we have a little
better of a handle on it.

298
00:14:00,920 --> 00:14:01,420
Yeah?

299
00:14:01,420 --> 00:14:07,266
AUDIENCE: What is [INAUDIBLE]
major discovery that

300
00:14:07,266 --> 00:14:11,090
will change [INAUDIBLE] that
you have showing on the site?

301
00:14:11,090 --> 00:14:13,410
NOELLE SELIN: Probably.

302
00:14:13,410 --> 00:14:18,010
I think that artisanal and
small scale gold mining

303
00:14:18,010 --> 00:14:20,390
we could learn a lot more about.

304
00:14:20,390 --> 00:14:21,870
And the uncertainties are huge.

305
00:14:21,870 --> 00:14:23,810
So we're doing some
work with the modeling

306
00:14:23,810 --> 00:14:27,640
and also looking at
measurements in the atmosphere

307
00:14:27,640 --> 00:14:30,430
to try to back calculate
what the emissions are.

308
00:14:30,430 --> 00:14:32,560
One of the key
uncertainties in emissions

309
00:14:32,560 --> 00:14:36,730
is-- the key is that when you
emit mercury, it doesn't stay,

310
00:14:36,730 --> 00:14:41,300
because it's a volatile
heavy metal, weirdly enough.

311
00:14:41,300 --> 00:14:44,195
So when it goes into the
soil, something like lead

312
00:14:44,195 --> 00:14:45,455
will stay there.

313
00:14:45,455 --> 00:14:47,490
But mercury pops back up.

314
00:14:47,490 --> 00:14:49,130
And because we've
been emitting mercury

315
00:14:49,130 --> 00:14:51,920
for decades,
centuries, millennia,

316
00:14:51,920 --> 00:14:54,450
there's mercury enhanced in
the surface ocean, enhanced

317
00:14:54,450 --> 00:14:56,100
in the soil, it keeps
popping back up.

318
00:14:56,100 --> 00:14:59,330
We don't have a good handle
on what that source is

319
00:14:59,330 --> 00:15:02,870
and how much of it is
human versus natural.

320
00:15:02,870 --> 00:15:07,170
So this actually I
did the human in red,

321
00:15:07,170 --> 00:15:11,672
and then it's technically
pre-industrial.

322
00:15:11,672 --> 00:15:13,880
But the problem is-- so
there was a recent paper that

323
00:15:13,880 --> 00:15:18,330
came out that said, yes, mercury
circulating in the system

324
00:15:18,330 --> 00:15:21,610
has gone about a factor of
three since pre-industrial

325
00:15:21,610 --> 00:15:24,460
and we can use lake sediment
cores to figure that out.

326
00:15:24,460 --> 00:15:27,440
But again, the
Romans used mercury.

327
00:15:27,440 --> 00:15:31,280
So labeling pre-industrial
equals natural

328
00:15:31,280 --> 00:15:33,850
is kind of problematic,
because although we've

329
00:15:33,850 --> 00:15:36,800
had a real big spike
from coal, there's

330
00:15:36,800 --> 00:15:39,310
probably human mercury
that's been circulating

331
00:15:39,310 --> 00:15:40,784
that we don't have a good idea.

332
00:15:40,784 --> 00:15:42,700
So they're saying maybe
it's a factor of seven

333
00:15:42,700 --> 00:15:45,370
now as opposed to
a factor of three.

334
00:15:45,370 --> 00:15:49,550
But regardless, current
emissions play a role,

335
00:15:49,550 --> 00:15:56,500
and if you look at
deposition to the US,

336
00:15:56,500 --> 00:15:58,950
this is mercury
actually coming down

337
00:15:58,950 --> 00:16:01,420
in rainfall entering
the US environment.

338
00:16:01,420 --> 00:16:04,770
What you see is you see
a bunch of patterns.

339
00:16:04,770 --> 00:16:08,120
So the highest wet deposition in
the US is actually in Florida.

340
00:16:08,120 --> 00:16:11,190
And that comes from
global sources.

341
00:16:11,190 --> 00:16:13,140
But you can see
that there's also

342
00:16:13,140 --> 00:16:15,330
deposition in the northeast
that comes directly

343
00:16:15,330 --> 00:16:16,500
from the coal power plants.

344
00:16:16,500 --> 00:16:18,610
So not going to go through
all the chemistry of this

345
00:16:18,610 --> 00:16:20,026
because it has to
do with chemical

346
00:16:20,026 --> 00:16:22,010
reactions in the atmosphere.

347
00:16:22,010 --> 00:16:26,220
But the upshot is that if
you want to reduce deposition

348
00:16:26,220 --> 00:16:29,180
over the US in all
these different places,

349
00:16:29,180 --> 00:16:32,260
you have to tackle both the
local sources-- because some

350
00:16:32,260 --> 00:16:36,190
of it actually deposits right
near the source, and some of it

351
00:16:36,190 --> 00:16:40,490
circulates globally-- and the
global atmosphere deposits.

352
00:16:40,490 --> 00:16:45,900
And then actually affects you.

353
00:16:45,900 --> 00:16:48,330
So this is really one of the
motivating things for the US

354
00:16:48,330 --> 00:16:51,400
to get involved both
in mercury policy

355
00:16:51,400 --> 00:16:54,540
nationally and mercury
policy globally.

356
00:16:54,540 --> 00:16:58,730
So just giving you a
little bit of the history.

357
00:16:58,730 --> 00:17:01,520
I'll talk a little bit about
what happened in the US

358
00:17:01,520 --> 00:17:02,890
as well.

359
00:17:02,890 --> 00:17:07,160
But this is something that's
come up in the last 15 years

360
00:17:07,160 --> 00:17:08,510
or so.

361
00:17:08,510 --> 00:17:10,890
The first global
scientific assessment

362
00:17:10,890 --> 00:17:15,619
of mercury that gave this idea
that mercury is a long range

363
00:17:15,619 --> 00:17:19,599
problem-- global action
is necessary to address it

364
00:17:19,599 --> 00:17:24,040
was the main conclusion
that came out in 2002.

365
00:17:24,040 --> 00:17:25,890
So you get this
group of scientists

366
00:17:25,890 --> 00:17:29,410
together under the UN
Environment Program Chemicals

367
00:17:29,410 --> 00:17:33,290
Division and they say, mercury's
a problem, global action needed

368
00:17:33,290 --> 00:17:34,300
to address it.

369
00:17:34,300 --> 00:17:37,360
Now, look, what do we do?

370
00:17:37,360 --> 00:17:42,130
And so the global treaty
as I said was last year.

371
00:17:42,130 --> 00:17:44,850
Now that's a long, long state.

372
00:17:44,850 --> 00:17:48,130
That's 11 years difference.

373
00:17:48,130 --> 00:17:51,600
So what happened
during that time.

374
00:17:51,600 --> 00:17:55,300
Well, what happened was
a lot to do with the US.

375
00:17:55,300 --> 00:17:56,940
And this shows sort
of the influence

376
00:17:56,940 --> 00:18:01,980
of domestic regulation in
the international context.

377
00:18:01,980 --> 00:18:04,590
Those of you who remember
2002 in the US, thee US

378
00:18:04,590 --> 00:18:09,160
administration wasn't so
pro-internal environmental

379
00:18:09,160 --> 00:18:10,690
regulation.

380
00:18:10,690 --> 00:18:12,950
Didn't really like
the idea of signing up

381
00:18:12,950 --> 00:18:16,790
the US to something that
might be questionable in terms

382
00:18:16,790 --> 00:18:19,470
of its cost benefit ratio.

383
00:18:19,470 --> 00:18:24,150
And you know, why mercury?

384
00:18:24,150 --> 00:18:27,640
International cooperation
wasn't necessarily a priority.

385
00:18:27,640 --> 00:18:32,480
International environmental
cooperation even less so.

386
00:18:32,480 --> 00:18:36,050
And the idea that we shouldn't
waste time getting everyone

387
00:18:36,050 --> 00:18:37,570
on board, we should
just do what we

388
00:18:37,570 --> 00:18:40,090
want to do with the
willing partners

389
00:18:40,090 --> 00:18:43,274
was an idea that was
sort of widespread

390
00:18:43,274 --> 00:18:44,190
in the administration.

391
00:18:44,190 --> 00:18:46,550
So they applied that
to mercury as well.

392
00:18:46,550 --> 00:18:49,030
So what they have is the
global mercury partnership.

393
00:18:49,030 --> 00:18:54,310
They said, let's get
together various coalitions

394
00:18:54,310 --> 00:18:56,080
that are going to
attack different aspects

395
00:18:56,080 --> 00:18:57,320
of the mercury problem.

396
00:18:57,320 --> 00:18:59,800
So they had a task force on
artisanal and small scale gold

397
00:18:59,800 --> 00:19:00,300
mining.

398
00:19:00,300 --> 00:19:02,590
They had a task force on
coal fire power plants.

399
00:19:02,590 --> 00:19:05,160
And they did some
voluntary activities,

400
00:19:05,160 --> 00:19:06,930
capacity building in
different countries

401
00:19:06,930 --> 00:19:08,380
to try to reduce emissions.

402
00:19:08,380 --> 00:19:12,190
But there was an
ongoing discussion about

403
00:19:12,190 --> 00:19:14,640
whether that's actually
effective at reducing

404
00:19:14,640 --> 00:19:16,443
the mercury problem or not.

405
00:19:16,443 --> 00:19:18,890
It's pretty much
keeping the mercury

406
00:19:18,890 --> 00:19:21,560
levels constant at this point.

407
00:19:21,560 --> 00:19:23,640
And the European
Union in particular

408
00:19:23,640 --> 00:19:28,270
was very in favor of a
global legally binding treaty

409
00:19:28,270 --> 00:19:32,570
and had been since 2002.

410
00:19:32,570 --> 00:19:39,427
So every two years the UN
Environment Program governing

411
00:19:39,427 --> 00:19:40,010
council meets.

412
00:19:40,010 --> 00:19:42,790
The governing council is
the environment ministers

413
00:19:42,790 --> 00:19:44,260
of all the nations.

414
00:19:44,260 --> 00:19:48,100
And they're the ones really that
would set a mandate actually

415
00:19:48,100 --> 00:19:49,336
negotiate a global treaty.

416
00:19:49,336 --> 00:19:51,710
It would be done under the
auspices of the UN Environment

417
00:19:51,710 --> 00:19:52,470
Program.

418
00:19:52,470 --> 00:19:53,690
Every two years they met.

419
00:19:53,690 --> 00:19:59,740
And in 2000, 2003, US said
now let's do a program.

420
00:19:59,740 --> 00:20:04,970
2005, not so much, US.

421
00:20:04,970 --> 00:20:07,570
Now let's strengthen
the program.

422
00:20:07,570 --> 00:20:11,810
2007, still nothing, although
a couple of other countries

423
00:20:11,810 --> 00:20:13,079
are on board by that time.

424
00:20:13,079 --> 00:20:15,620
Latin America's actually really
interested in doing something

425
00:20:15,620 --> 00:20:17,661
particularly because of
the concerns on artisanal

426
00:20:17,661 --> 00:20:20,190
and small scale gold mining.

427
00:20:20,190 --> 00:20:25,190
Canada also has its phases
of liking or not liking

428
00:20:25,190 --> 00:20:27,560
international regulation.

429
00:20:27,560 --> 00:20:31,170
In the organic pollutants
example, the last convention,

430
00:20:31,170 --> 00:20:34,936
Canada was very much in favor
of negotiating something.

431
00:20:34,936 --> 00:20:36,520
Canada mines a lot of metals.

432
00:20:36,520 --> 00:20:38,320
Not necessarily
mercury, but Canada

433
00:20:38,320 --> 00:20:40,861
was a little afraid that this
was going to be a global metals

434
00:20:40,861 --> 00:20:44,020
treaty and didn't want to
really push for it so much.

435
00:20:44,020 --> 00:20:46,030
So Canada wasn't pushing.

436
00:20:46,030 --> 00:20:50,930
Australia, again, up and down,
but likes its metals too.

437
00:20:50,930 --> 00:20:55,790
So you didn't have a lot of
developed countries pushing.

438
00:20:55,790 --> 00:20:59,150
You had some developing country
blocks getting on board.

439
00:20:59,150 --> 00:21:00,870
So you think about
what countries

440
00:21:00,870 --> 00:21:03,242
and what their different
motivations are.

441
00:21:03,242 --> 00:21:06,160
And then we get to 2009.

442
00:21:06,160 --> 00:21:09,700
And suddenly in 2009, you have
the European Union still saying

443
00:21:09,700 --> 00:21:11,410
we need a global treaty.

444
00:21:11,410 --> 00:21:13,130
By then Latin
America's on board.

445
00:21:13,130 --> 00:21:14,670
We need a global treaty.

446
00:21:14,670 --> 00:21:18,610
And now you have the US saying,
hey, let's not such a bad idea.

447
00:21:18,610 --> 00:21:19,110
Guess what?

448
00:21:19,110 --> 00:21:21,900
We had a administration change.

449
00:21:21,900 --> 00:21:25,240
One of the things that is
important to note about the US

450
00:21:25,240 --> 00:21:29,890
is that President Obama has
made mercury a pet issue.

451
00:21:29,890 --> 00:21:32,390
The US-- and I'll talk
about mercury in products

452
00:21:32,390 --> 00:21:34,500
and how it relates
to the treaty--

453
00:21:34,500 --> 00:21:37,390
has a mercury export ban.

454
00:21:37,390 --> 00:21:44,900
That came in the mid-2000s,
when entry enforcement was

455
00:21:44,900 --> 00:21:46,280
passed I'm not 100% sure.

456
00:21:46,280 --> 00:21:49,530
But the sponsor of that
legislation in the US Senate

457
00:21:49,530 --> 00:21:51,740
was Senator Obama.

458
00:21:51,740 --> 00:21:56,500
So he had a interest
in mercury in general.

459
00:21:56,500 --> 00:22:01,190
And also the US had gone
through about eight or nine

460
00:22:01,190 --> 00:22:03,850
years of trying to regulate
mercury from coal fired power

461
00:22:03,850 --> 00:22:08,910
plants under a court order,
under the Clean Air Act,

462
00:22:08,910 --> 00:22:11,260
and had kind of messed
it up under Bush.

463
00:22:11,260 --> 00:22:15,499
And when Obama came in,
the clean air mercury rule

464
00:22:15,499 --> 00:22:17,040
had been thrown out
of court and they

465
00:22:17,040 --> 00:22:19,710
had to go back and do it again.

466
00:22:19,710 --> 00:22:23,030
And so Obama, being
interested in mercury,

467
00:22:23,030 --> 00:22:25,470
said let's regulate again.

468
00:22:25,470 --> 00:22:27,470
And the Mercury and
Air Toxic Standards

469
00:22:27,470 --> 00:22:29,440
came in 2012 in the US.

470
00:22:29,440 --> 00:22:30,990
But that was well under way.

471
00:22:30,990 --> 00:22:34,880
So the US starts saying, hey,
this isn't that bad an idea.

472
00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:37,720
Because if we want to solve our
mercury problem domestically,

473
00:22:37,720 --> 00:22:42,660
we need both international
and domestic action.

474
00:22:42,660 --> 00:22:45,720
This is kind of a win.

475
00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:48,840
It's also a political win
because protecting babies

476
00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:51,170
and not having
mercury in our food

477
00:22:51,170 --> 00:22:55,890
is a kind of clear
public message as well.

478
00:22:55,890 --> 00:22:56,647
China-- yeah?

479
00:22:56,647 --> 00:22:58,355
AUDIENCE: Can you
speak a little bit more

480
00:22:58,355 --> 00:23:03,640
about the cost benefit analysis
and what type of decisions

481
00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:05,472
a politician and
some of these people

482
00:23:05,472 --> 00:23:12,040
are making to make them more
attractive for this type

483
00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:12,580
of law?

484
00:23:12,580 --> 00:23:13,550
NOELLE SELIN: I can't.

485
00:23:13,550 --> 00:23:16,420
I'm actually doing a lot of work
on that in my group right now.

486
00:23:16,420 --> 00:23:18,660
So what they did for the
cost benefit analysis

487
00:23:18,660 --> 00:23:21,580
for the Mercury and
Air Toxic Standards,

488
00:23:21,580 --> 00:23:24,660
it was a little bit of an end
run around the idea of cost

489
00:23:24,660 --> 00:23:25,480
benefit analysis.

490
00:23:25,480 --> 00:23:27,110
Because what they
said was, we're

491
00:23:27,110 --> 00:23:28,534
going to regulate mercury.

492
00:23:28,534 --> 00:23:30,200
It's going to have
benefits particularly

493
00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:32,260
on sensitive groups.

494
00:23:32,260 --> 00:23:37,570
So in terms of overall
economic benefits,

495
00:23:37,570 --> 00:23:40,090
it was hard to get
that number up,

496
00:23:40,090 --> 00:23:43,110
in terms of a strict
cost benefit analysis.

497
00:23:43,110 --> 00:23:45,300
Because the people who
are most harmed by mercury

498
00:23:45,300 --> 00:23:48,180
are the people like
subsistence fishers,

499
00:23:48,180 --> 00:23:54,220
who eat a lot of local fish,
particularly for the domestic.

500
00:23:54,220 --> 00:23:59,860
A lot of general public gets
their fish from cans of tuna

501
00:23:59,860 --> 00:24:01,816
from the Atlantic, the Pacific.

502
00:24:01,816 --> 00:24:03,940
That's going to respond to
global emissions and not

503
00:24:03,940 --> 00:24:04,650
local emissions.

504
00:24:04,650 --> 00:24:07,180
So in the US context where
you have to do a cost benefit

505
00:24:07,180 --> 00:24:10,590
analysis, they ended up
showing the cost benefit

506
00:24:10,590 --> 00:24:14,215
of-- the Mercury and Air
Toxic Standards passed

507
00:24:14,215 --> 00:24:15,590
the cost benefit
analysis because

508
00:24:15,590 --> 00:24:18,890
of the particulate
matter benefits.

509
00:24:18,890 --> 00:24:21,520
Atmospheric particulate
matter contributes

510
00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:24,540
to cardiovascular impacts,
respiratory impacts.

511
00:24:24,540 --> 00:24:28,510
You can show a lot of
deaths if you reduce it.

512
00:24:28,510 --> 00:24:30,510
Multiply that by a value
of statistical like you

513
00:24:30,510 --> 00:24:32,867
paid for almost
anything, and that's

514
00:24:32,867 --> 00:24:34,950
what they did for Mercury
and Air Toxic Standards.

515
00:24:34,950 --> 00:24:38,240
Now are group is actually
doing a more thorough benefits

516
00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:41,480
analysis of the Mercury and Air
Toxic Standards out to 2050.

517
00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:45,510
And we get some
reasonably big numbers

518
00:24:45,510 --> 00:24:50,572
because we look at both the
Minamata and the Mercury

519
00:24:50,572 --> 00:24:52,780
and Air Toxic Standards,
the global and the regional.

520
00:24:52,780 --> 00:24:55,360
But that work's in
progress right now.

521
00:24:55,360 --> 00:24:57,550
But as far as what they
needed for the regulation,

522
00:24:57,550 --> 00:24:58,430
that's what they did.

523
00:24:58,430 --> 00:25:01,160
Globally, they didn't really
do a cost benefit analysis.

524
00:25:01,160 --> 00:25:05,240
It was we need to regulate
where we're kind of agreed

525
00:25:05,240 --> 00:25:08,160
that this is a problem.

526
00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:09,154
Let's go with it.

527
00:25:09,154 --> 00:25:11,070
Partly that's because a
lot of other countries

528
00:25:11,070 --> 00:25:13,530
don't have the tradition
of requiring cost benefit

529
00:25:13,530 --> 00:25:16,240
analysis that the US does.

530
00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:19,400
So hopefully that
gets to your question.

531
00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:19,900
Yeah.

532
00:25:19,900 --> 00:25:23,100
So again, China--
China is about half

533
00:25:23,100 --> 00:25:25,890
of global emissions
of mercury right now.

534
00:25:25,890 --> 00:25:28,810
China wasn't
particularly thrilled

535
00:25:28,810 --> 00:25:31,480
about this whole thing.

536
00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:34,770
But China came around.

537
00:25:34,770 --> 00:25:37,020
Again, the US and the
EU and Latin America,

538
00:25:37,020 --> 00:25:39,830
you get three major blocks.

539
00:25:39,830 --> 00:25:42,000
Canada came around, too.

540
00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:43,370
Australia came around.

541
00:25:43,370 --> 00:25:46,920
Africa didn't really
have anything against it.

542
00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:49,380
They probably a net
gain of resources

543
00:25:49,380 --> 00:25:53,090
from this kind of analysis.

544
00:25:53,090 --> 00:25:57,230
So it's China and India really
who are the most worried

545
00:25:57,230 --> 00:25:59,145
about what they have to do.

546
00:25:59,145 --> 00:26:03,290
And in response to
China, it delayed a year

547
00:26:03,290 --> 00:26:05,060
when negotiations
were going to start.

548
00:26:05,060 --> 00:26:08,625
So they didn't start till 2010.

549
00:26:08,625 --> 00:26:10,000
China wanted to
delay them a year

550
00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:12,020
because China was putting
in its own mercury

551
00:26:12,020 --> 00:26:15,210
regulations for its power plants
as part of their next five year

552
00:26:15,210 --> 00:26:15,860
plan.

553
00:26:15,860 --> 00:26:17,530
So China does have
mercury regulations.

554
00:26:17,530 --> 00:26:19,267
They're not
particularly binding.

555
00:26:19,267 --> 00:26:20,600
They're not particularly strict.

556
00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:24,840
But they copied Germany's
and said let's put mercury

557
00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:25,766
in our regulations.

558
00:26:25,766 --> 00:26:27,890
They do you actually have
quite a bit of technology

559
00:26:27,890 --> 00:26:29,360
on their power plants.

560
00:26:29,360 --> 00:26:31,330
Whether it's operating
or not is another thing.

561
00:26:31,330 --> 00:26:36,210
But in terms of build out
capacity, they're there.

562
00:26:36,210 --> 00:26:39,720
So actually negotiating
the instrument

563
00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:42,400
took five negotiating sessions.

564
00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:44,600
It was signed in 2013.

565
00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:47,120
Now once an
international agreement

566
00:26:47,120 --> 00:26:49,060
is signed by
countries, they have

567
00:26:49,060 --> 00:26:54,960
to go and ratify it, make it
consistent with their US law.

568
00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:58,530
That in the US usually has
to go through the Senate.

569
00:26:58,530 --> 00:27:00,380
In this case, it did not.

570
00:27:00,380 --> 00:27:06,370
The US accepted a procedure
equivalent to that

571
00:27:06,370 --> 00:27:08,170
of ratification,
the Mercury Treaty

572
00:27:08,170 --> 00:27:11,100
becoming the first
party because it

573
00:27:11,100 --> 00:27:15,790
was so consistent with US
law that it essentially

574
00:27:15,790 --> 00:27:18,360
was an executive decision.

575
00:27:18,360 --> 00:27:20,110
The administration
said, we don't actually

576
00:27:20,110 --> 00:27:21,400
need to do anything.

577
00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:24,800
It's pretty much an
embodiment of US law.

578
00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:27,130
Because we're doing
so much on mercury,

579
00:27:27,130 --> 00:27:31,720
this does not go much further
than the US already goes.

580
00:27:31,720 --> 00:27:34,940
So that's one
particular lesson is

581
00:27:34,940 --> 00:27:38,790
that the US and the EU
in particular, and you

582
00:27:38,790 --> 00:27:43,570
can see this also in the
reading about the EU,

583
00:27:43,570 --> 00:27:45,630
these national
laws often are sort

584
00:27:45,630 --> 00:27:49,480
of leading the
international standards.

585
00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:53,940
So it's actually
predictable in the sense

586
00:27:53,940 --> 00:27:57,660
that you're not going to get
countries like China, countries

587
00:27:57,660 --> 00:28:02,220
in Africa, to do the same kinds
of end of pipe expensive power

588
00:28:02,220 --> 00:28:04,920
plant controls that you
might expect in the US

589
00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:08,610
when they don't even
have the basic controls

590
00:28:08,610 --> 00:28:11,720
or maybe don't even have
power plants to begin with.

591
00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:13,830
So again, thinking
about what it's

592
00:28:13,830 --> 00:28:15,540
sort of a lowest
common denominator

593
00:28:15,540 --> 00:28:19,270
that you often get in these
international agreements.

594
00:28:19,270 --> 00:28:25,679
So one emphasis of the
agreement was emissions.

595
00:28:25,679 --> 00:28:28,220
And I'm not going to talk too
much about emissions given what

596
00:28:28,220 --> 00:28:30,120
you guys are
interested in-- again,

597
00:28:30,120 --> 00:28:33,730
that's the power sector
part-- but that was only one

598
00:28:33,730 --> 00:28:34,660
component of the tree.

599
00:28:34,660 --> 00:28:38,570
Another is mercury in
products and processes,

600
00:28:38,570 --> 00:28:41,947
which I think is of probably
more interesting to you guys.

601
00:28:41,947 --> 00:28:44,030
So I'm going to talk about
products and processes.

602
00:28:44,030 --> 00:28:46,363
And I'm going to talk about
what they did with artisanal

603
00:28:46,363 --> 00:28:49,170
and small scale gold mining,
because those both have kind

604
00:28:49,170 --> 00:28:53,620
of supply chain type issues.

605
00:28:53,620 --> 00:28:59,040
So where do you see mercury
in products and processes?

606
00:28:59,040 --> 00:29:04,260
So one that is pretty
familiar is thermometers.

607
00:29:04,260 --> 00:29:07,920
So again, phasing out
in places like the US.

608
00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:10,010
You don't see them that often.

609
00:29:10,010 --> 00:29:15,530
But thermometers, blood
pressure measuring devices,

610
00:29:15,530 --> 00:29:23,340
some of the old
thermostats have mercury.

611
00:29:23,340 --> 00:29:26,510
So this whole idea of electrical
control and switching,

612
00:29:26,510 --> 00:29:28,640
measuring and control.

613
00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:30,680
Batteries, older batteries.

614
00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:33,320
Again, phased out in
the US and the EU,

615
00:29:33,320 --> 00:29:39,030
but common elsewhere
sometimes still.

616
00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:42,700
Lighting.

617
00:29:42,700 --> 00:29:45,070
Fluorescent lamps.

618
00:29:45,070 --> 00:29:48,130
Both regular fluorescent
lamps, the tube versions,

619
00:29:48,130 --> 00:29:50,690
and compact fluorescent lamps.

620
00:29:50,690 --> 00:29:54,870
So save energy on balance, but
use a small amount of mercury.

621
00:29:54,870 --> 00:29:57,010
LEDs don't have mercury.

622
00:29:57,010 --> 00:30:00,630
But again, with people
encouraging more and more

623
00:30:00,630 --> 00:30:02,955
compact fluorescent and
fluorescent use in lighting

624
00:30:02,955 --> 00:30:04,830
because of their energy
efficient properties,

625
00:30:04,830 --> 00:30:08,540
mercury becomes an issue, and
safe disposal becomes an issue.

626
00:30:11,310 --> 00:30:12,850
The other is your teeth.

627
00:30:12,850 --> 00:30:13,890
Dental amalgam.

628
00:30:13,890 --> 00:30:21,470
So again, some countries have
phased out the use of mercury

629
00:30:21,470 --> 00:30:22,810
in fillings.

630
00:30:22,810 --> 00:30:24,810
Others don't.

631
00:30:24,810 --> 00:30:27,110
It's pretty cheap.

632
00:30:27,110 --> 00:30:32,430
Even in the US, if you
actually go to the dentist

633
00:30:32,430 --> 00:30:33,950
and you need a
filling and they say,

634
00:30:33,950 --> 00:30:35,783
do you want the silver
one or the white one,

635
00:30:35,783 --> 00:30:38,210
and the white one's a lot
more expensive even here.

636
00:30:38,210 --> 00:30:40,120
So think about if
you're in a developing

637
00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:42,200
country what your option is.

638
00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:46,490
Your option is probably
no dental care at all,

639
00:30:46,490 --> 00:30:49,360
but the silver filling
is probably much better

640
00:30:49,360 --> 00:30:52,630
to have-- you save your
tooth-- than the white filling,

641
00:30:52,630 --> 00:30:57,070
the composite, which is much,
much more expensive for you.

642
00:30:57,070 --> 00:30:59,890
So use of mercury
in dental amalgam

643
00:30:59,890 --> 00:31:02,840
was, are we going to
keep using it or not?

644
00:31:02,840 --> 00:31:06,030
Again, can be an
environmental issue

645
00:31:06,030 --> 00:31:09,740
when people get
cremated and get across.

646
00:31:12,312 --> 00:31:14,020
And then there's a
bunch of other things.

647
00:31:14,020 --> 00:31:19,640
Chloralkali plants-- so use of
mercury in industrial processes

648
00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:25,650
that are phased out in some
cases, but not in others.

649
00:31:25,650 --> 00:31:29,200
Vinyl chloride monomer,
particularly in China,

650
00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:30,070
mercury is used.

651
00:31:30,070 --> 00:31:32,950
So you've got a substance
that you think, mercury,

652
00:31:32,950 --> 00:31:36,150
it's a really concrete
thing to regulate.

653
00:31:36,150 --> 00:31:38,120
But then think about
all these industries

654
00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:41,020
that you've now involved.

655
00:31:41,020 --> 00:31:44,220
So you've got a group
sitting in negotiations.

656
00:31:44,220 --> 00:31:47,280
I actually took a group
of 10 graduate students

657
00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:50,260
to the final negotiating
session, which was in Geneva.

658
00:31:50,260 --> 00:31:54,590
And you've got a group
of maybe 75 people

659
00:31:54,590 --> 00:31:57,390
in the room,
representatives from all

660
00:31:57,390 --> 00:31:59,130
the different countries.

661
00:31:59,130 --> 00:32:01,670
Industry could come
in as observers.

662
00:32:01,670 --> 00:32:05,160
But again, if you're an
industry that does this,

663
00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:07,900
think about how
long and how intense

664
00:32:07,900 --> 00:32:10,800
your observation had to be.

665
00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:13,840
You're going to send a person
to every week long meeting

666
00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:18,240
during five negotiating
sessions through 2010 to 2013,

667
00:32:18,240 --> 00:32:21,940
spending a week in Geneva
each time just to think about,

668
00:32:21,940 --> 00:32:24,750
if you're in the electrical
control and switching industry,

669
00:32:24,750 --> 00:32:27,210
to raise their hand every
time electrical control

670
00:32:27,210 --> 00:32:28,690
and switching comes up.

671
00:32:28,690 --> 00:32:31,470
And they're not really even
allowed to raise their hand,

672
00:32:31,470 --> 00:32:33,640
because the only people
that are technically

673
00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:36,490
allowed to talk on the
floor are countries.

674
00:32:36,490 --> 00:32:39,410
So what you can do as
an electrical control

675
00:32:39,410 --> 00:32:41,290
and switching person
is you can go and lobby

676
00:32:41,290 --> 00:32:42,660
your friendly countries.

677
00:32:42,660 --> 00:32:46,050
You can put out a poster
in the lobby and say, hey,

678
00:32:46,050 --> 00:32:48,411
this is how these
regulations would affect us.

679
00:32:48,411 --> 00:32:50,410
There's probably somebody
next to you that says,

680
00:32:50,410 --> 00:32:52,310
we have the mercury
free version.

681
00:32:52,310 --> 00:32:53,900
Come buy it.

682
00:32:53,900 --> 00:32:59,840
And so depending on your
country and where you are,

683
00:32:59,840 --> 00:33:02,350
this is what it looks like.

684
00:33:02,350 --> 00:33:06,770
In the products group, it became
a little bit more informal.

685
00:33:06,770 --> 00:33:11,010
There were companies that
participated in discussions

686
00:33:11,010 --> 00:33:12,760
as observers.

687
00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:16,570
They talked about
thresholds of where mercury

688
00:33:16,570 --> 00:33:18,720
would be restricted or not.

689
00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:20,390
And the companies
started saying, well,

690
00:33:20,390 --> 00:33:23,400
there's an alternative
for this, but there's not

691
00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:25,980
an alternative for this.

692
00:33:25,980 --> 00:33:28,590
So as you think about
the major categories,

693
00:33:28,590 --> 00:33:33,140
you have ones that are a
lot in developed countries

694
00:33:33,140 --> 00:33:35,680
and then ones that are primarily
in developing countries.

695
00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:40,130
And these are things that used
to be in developed countries

696
00:33:40,130 --> 00:33:44,860
quite a bit but have
often phased out.

697
00:33:44,860 --> 00:33:48,540
So how do you think about
regulating something

698
00:33:48,540 --> 00:33:50,260
internationally?

699
00:33:50,260 --> 00:33:52,990
Now there was two
different approaches

700
00:33:52,990 --> 00:33:56,710
and they refer to them as
positive and negative lists,

701
00:33:56,710 --> 00:33:59,570
which is a little bit confusing
because it meant the opposite

702
00:33:59,570 --> 00:34:00,790
of what you might think.

703
00:34:00,790 --> 00:34:03,280
But the idea is
that you either say,

704
00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:05,750
I'm going to list all these
things that are banned

705
00:34:05,750 --> 00:34:07,460
and you can't use
mercury in them,

706
00:34:07,460 --> 00:34:11,131
or I'm going to ban
mercury in all products

707
00:34:11,131 --> 00:34:13,380
and I'm going to make a list
of the ones you can still

708
00:34:13,380 --> 00:34:14,783
use mercury in.

709
00:34:14,783 --> 00:34:16,699
So the idea of banning
mercury in all products

710
00:34:16,699 --> 00:34:18,610
was kind of a nonstarter
because, again,

711
00:34:18,610 --> 00:34:20,860
things like compact
fluorescent lamps

712
00:34:20,860 --> 00:34:26,170
had benefits that were greater
than the cost of mercury.

713
00:34:26,170 --> 00:34:29,300
Actually no one was really
suggesting that you go back

714
00:34:29,300 --> 00:34:35,139
to incandescence because they've
actually done on the assessment

715
00:34:35,139 --> 00:34:40,520
that if you actually have a very
heavy coal load in your power,

716
00:34:40,520 --> 00:34:43,520
the mercury that you save by
going to a compact fluorescent

717
00:34:43,520 --> 00:34:47,280
is much larger amounts than
the mercury that's actually

718
00:34:47,280 --> 00:34:48,860
in the light bulb.

719
00:34:48,860 --> 00:34:51,060
And there's a move to
get less and less mercury

720
00:34:51,060 --> 00:34:53,030
in that light bulb.

721
00:34:53,030 --> 00:34:55,800
So the idea that
they came up with

722
00:34:55,800 --> 00:34:59,630
was-- there was a
lot of discussion.

723
00:34:59,630 --> 00:35:01,940
Do you have the blanket
ban with the exceptions?

724
00:35:01,940 --> 00:35:05,850
Do you just list the ones that
you're phasing out and banning?

725
00:35:05,850 --> 00:35:07,570
And they came out
the latter approach.

726
00:35:07,570 --> 00:35:09,070
But then they had
to negotiate which

727
00:35:09,070 --> 00:35:14,680
of these things on this list was
on there, which was exempted,

728
00:35:14,680 --> 00:35:18,780
and if there were
thresholds to each of these.

729
00:35:18,780 --> 00:35:22,430
So what kind of level
of mercury would you

730
00:35:22,430 --> 00:35:26,181
accept in these or not?

731
00:35:26,181 --> 00:35:26,680
Yes?

732
00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:28,000
AUDIENCE: I'm just
wondering why they

733
00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:29,320
would go about it
that way trying

734
00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:31,280
to create an exhaustive
list when they don't know

735
00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:33,090
future technology
that's going to come out

736
00:35:33,090 --> 00:35:35,500
rather than setting
out a set of criteria

737
00:35:35,500 --> 00:35:37,910
that's saying if thee
product meets a, b, and c,

738
00:35:37,910 --> 00:35:39,026
then you can it?

739
00:35:39,026 --> 00:35:40,915
NOELLE SELIN: Who decides
on those criteria?

740
00:35:43,560 --> 00:35:48,910
Or actually reviews whether
you actually met those?

741
00:35:48,910 --> 00:35:51,710
And part of that
is transparency.

742
00:35:51,710 --> 00:35:57,260
So what countries have to do is
then go back to their countries

743
00:35:57,260 --> 00:35:58,820
and say, what am I allowing?

744
00:35:58,820 --> 00:35:59,950
What am I not?

745
00:35:59,950 --> 00:36:03,850
You have to know what you
can put mercury in and not.

746
00:36:03,850 --> 00:36:06,670
So there's kind of a
transparency approach

747
00:36:06,670 --> 00:36:08,170
that happens.

748
00:36:08,170 --> 00:36:10,210
I think the two
options that came up,

749
00:36:10,210 --> 00:36:15,114
the either blanket ban
plus exceptions or the we

750
00:36:15,114 --> 00:36:16,780
list the things that
they we're banning,

751
00:36:16,780 --> 00:36:21,310
were kind of the two approaches
that they most looked at.

752
00:36:21,310 --> 00:36:24,294
Because again, that would
make it even more wishy-washy,

753
00:36:24,294 --> 00:36:26,210
I think, because then
you could show, oh yeah,

754
00:36:26,210 --> 00:36:29,530
well I fulfilled these
three requirements.

755
00:36:29,530 --> 00:36:32,010
So that wouldn't
be that stringent

756
00:36:32,010 --> 00:36:35,380
in international context because
there's no body that can really

757
00:36:35,380 --> 00:36:36,740
certify those requirements.

758
00:36:36,740 --> 00:36:39,150
So the key with
international regulation

759
00:36:39,150 --> 00:36:42,120
is that there's no
enforcement essentially.

760
00:36:46,150 --> 00:36:48,480
It's an environmental treaty.

761
00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:52,660
You can barely enforce the ones
that actually involve weapons.

762
00:36:52,660 --> 00:36:56,050
You're not going to
go bomb someone that

763
00:36:56,050 --> 00:36:57,540
is using too much mercury.

764
00:36:57,540 --> 00:36:59,582
What's going to happen
is you're going to say,

765
00:36:59,582 --> 00:37:01,040
hey, you're using
too much mercury.

766
00:37:01,040 --> 00:37:03,630
We're going to caution you.

767
00:37:03,630 --> 00:37:06,560
We're going to shame you in
the international context.

768
00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:09,062
We're not going to let you vote.

769
00:37:09,062 --> 00:37:10,770
Maybe we'll actually
give you more money,

770
00:37:10,770 --> 00:37:12,860
because probably the
reason you're not complying

771
00:37:12,860 --> 00:37:15,526
is because you can't afford it.

772
00:37:15,526 --> 00:37:16,650
That's what really happens.

773
00:37:16,650 --> 00:37:17,880
Yeah?

774
00:37:17,880 --> 00:37:18,860
AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE].

775
00:37:22,290 --> 00:37:23,760
So I've heard from
friends that we

776
00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:27,190
have an island in French
Polynesia called New Caledonia.

777
00:37:27,190 --> 00:37:32,110
The island basically
has a lot of copper.

778
00:37:32,110 --> 00:37:35,810
And so copper is
an industry there.

779
00:37:35,810 --> 00:37:38,120
And to say the only industry.

780
00:37:38,120 --> 00:37:42,060
And basically the
rivers that were blue

781
00:37:42,060 --> 00:37:46,683
once have turned red
because of mercury.

782
00:37:46,683 --> 00:37:49,040
The level of contamination
of the rivers and the island

783
00:37:49,040 --> 00:37:51,310
is-- it was a paradise.

784
00:37:51,310 --> 00:37:54,160
It's extremely high.

785
00:37:54,160 --> 00:37:56,640
And it's still
the only industry.

786
00:37:56,640 --> 00:37:59,530
So it's the main and only sort
of employment in the island.

787
00:37:59,530 --> 00:38:02,020
And there's nobody who
will say anything about it,

788
00:38:02,020 --> 00:38:04,950
or nobody pretends to do
anything about it because I

789
00:38:04,950 --> 00:38:07,360
feel that if it's
not a consensus,

790
00:38:07,360 --> 00:38:09,640
there's still an
understand that it's

791
00:38:09,640 --> 00:38:12,550
the only way the island
can have any income.

792
00:38:12,550 --> 00:38:14,260
And there's nothing to develop.

793
00:38:14,260 --> 00:38:16,610
The [INAUDIBLE]
is not developed.

794
00:38:16,610 --> 00:38:20,840
There's really [INAUDIBLE]
except for this.

795
00:38:20,840 --> 00:38:23,415
So how would you go about it?

796
00:38:23,415 --> 00:38:24,790
Because when I
was there it there

797
00:38:24,790 --> 00:38:29,240
it was really sad to see that
such a beautiful place could

798
00:38:29,240 --> 00:38:33,365
be damage with nobody really
wanting to do anything.

799
00:38:33,365 --> 00:38:36,040
NOELLE SELIN: I think that's
really the larger challenge

800
00:38:36,040 --> 00:38:39,040
that you see in these global
environmental negotiations

801
00:38:39,040 --> 00:38:42,710
because you have a lot
of places like that

802
00:38:42,710 --> 00:38:44,650
with various
different specifics.

803
00:38:44,650 --> 00:38:48,140
But the idea is, how
do you balance benefits

804
00:38:48,140 --> 00:38:51,130
to people-- like
building energy--

805
00:38:51,130 --> 00:38:53,850
versus environmental damages?

806
00:38:53,850 --> 00:38:57,050
And the solution that the
international community

807
00:38:57,050 --> 00:38:59,570
does-- I wish I had a better
solution-- but it's basically

808
00:38:59,570 --> 00:39:01,760
throw money at the problem.

809
00:39:01,760 --> 00:39:05,570
Capacity building,
different techniques,

810
00:39:05,570 --> 00:39:11,870
try to get cleaner
processes, build awareness.

811
00:39:11,870 --> 00:39:13,290
That's pretty much the--

812
00:39:13,290 --> 00:39:22,092
AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE] allowed
to the big countries or--

813
00:39:22,092 --> 00:39:24,540
NOELLE SELIN: A lot of
it's local awareness, too.

814
00:39:24,540 --> 00:39:27,514
So in mercury--

815
00:39:27,514 --> 00:39:28,930
AUDIENCE: Seek a
solution locally?

816
00:39:28,930 --> 00:39:30,410
NOELLE SELIN: Yes.

817
00:39:30,410 --> 00:39:33,480
So in the mercury
negotiations, there

818
00:39:33,480 --> 00:39:36,990
was a lot done-- so a lot of the
nongovernmental organizations

819
00:39:36,990 --> 00:39:38,870
have banded together
internationally

820
00:39:38,870 --> 00:39:41,400
into a more mega group.

821
00:39:41,400 --> 00:39:44,370
So you have some local
nongovernmental organizations

822
00:39:44,370 --> 00:39:49,145
who have kind of partnered
across in mercury action

823
00:39:49,145 --> 00:39:50,020
network or something.

824
00:39:50,020 --> 00:39:51,910
I forget exactly
what it was called.

825
00:39:51,910 --> 00:39:54,300
But that was an umbrella
group of a bunch

826
00:39:54,300 --> 00:39:57,000
of different very local
nongovernmental organizations,

827
00:39:57,000 --> 00:40:02,900
a lot of whom work in these
artisanal and small scale gold

828
00:40:02,900 --> 00:40:05,050
mining communities,
which is actually

829
00:40:05,050 --> 00:40:07,790
very similar to
this kind of issue,

830
00:40:07,790 --> 00:40:10,310
which I'll talk about next.

831
00:40:10,310 --> 00:40:15,950
But yeah, the idea is that
you can do awareness raising

832
00:40:15,950 --> 00:40:17,370
workshops.

833
00:40:17,370 --> 00:40:19,710
So they bring in
international experts,

834
00:40:19,710 --> 00:40:23,080
national experts, talk about
the damages of mercury,

835
00:40:23,080 --> 00:40:27,240
talk about what you could
potentially be doing about it.

836
00:40:27,240 --> 00:40:29,220
That's sort of where
the state of art

837
00:40:29,220 --> 00:40:30,880
is, I think, at this point.

838
00:40:34,330 --> 00:40:37,390
But yeah, so you had to go
through these major categories

839
00:40:37,390 --> 00:40:39,530
of mercury use.

840
00:40:39,530 --> 00:40:43,780
And then I just want to flip
ahead a little bit to actually

841
00:40:43,780 --> 00:40:45,970
what happened.

842
00:40:45,970 --> 00:40:48,850
Again, you have different
phase outs and phase downs.

843
00:40:48,850 --> 00:40:54,340
And then there's this very
legalese exemption period

844
00:40:54,340 --> 00:40:57,190
where you can have
either general exemptions

845
00:40:57,190 --> 00:40:59,040
or specific exemptions.

846
00:40:59,040 --> 00:41:02,940
Another area where mercury
was generalized exemption

847
00:41:02,940 --> 00:41:07,110
was mercury used as a
preservative in vaccines.

848
00:41:07,110 --> 00:41:10,550
So that was one that, again,
this sort of cost benefit

849
00:41:10,550 --> 00:41:14,710
analysis-- there's no
evidence that it's harmful.

850
00:41:14,710 --> 00:41:16,550
Again, other than the
general sense that we

851
00:41:16,550 --> 00:41:19,190
want to phase down mercury.

852
00:41:19,190 --> 00:41:22,990
But it's been phased out
for precautionary reasons

853
00:41:22,990 --> 00:41:25,580
and also because,
again, don't want

854
00:41:25,580 --> 00:41:28,950
to use too much mercury
in developed countries.

855
00:41:28,950 --> 00:41:31,260
But what happens is in
developing countries,

856
00:41:31,260 --> 00:41:35,980
you have vaccines that it means
it doesn't need refrigeration

857
00:41:35,980 --> 00:41:38,310
if you use a mercury
containing preservative.

858
00:41:38,310 --> 00:41:39,820
So again, you're
getting vaccines

859
00:41:39,820 --> 00:41:43,610
to places where you don't have
refrigeration if you use it.

860
00:41:43,610 --> 00:41:47,906
So that's why that ended
up in a general exemption.

861
00:41:47,906 --> 00:41:50,380
AUDIENCE: I do go
through this process.

862
00:41:50,380 --> 00:41:56,170
And when does the science
get into the discussion.

863
00:41:56,170 --> 00:42:00,160
Because you have at some
point to decide [INAUDIBLE].

864
00:42:00,160 --> 00:42:02,650
They know exactly what
levels to be allowed

865
00:42:02,650 --> 00:42:05,170
and they want to
just being reflected.

866
00:42:05,170 --> 00:42:08,154
So I'm wondering where
does this get in.

867
00:42:08,154 --> 00:42:10,570
NOELLE SELIN: It's a lot less
technical than you think is.

868
00:42:10,570 --> 00:42:13,830
So where the scientific
analysis came in

869
00:42:13,830 --> 00:42:17,280
was really in that global
mercury assessment 2002

870
00:42:17,280 --> 00:42:18,700
and the updates of that.

871
00:42:18,700 --> 00:42:20,590
And then the
negotiator said, yeah,

872
00:42:20,590 --> 00:42:24,500
the scientific case is made
that we ought to reduce mercury.

873
00:42:24,500 --> 00:42:29,260
There is no particular substance
by substance sense of when they

874
00:42:29,260 --> 00:42:31,310
actually thought to phase out.

875
00:42:31,310 --> 00:42:35,850
No one did an analysis of what
the benefits of phasing out in

876
00:42:35,850 --> 00:42:39,050
switches and relays versus
linear fluorescent lamps.

877
00:42:39,050 --> 00:42:42,410
That just wasn't even
on the radar screen.

878
00:42:42,410 --> 00:42:46,230
There were assessments that
said where are the sources?

879
00:42:46,230 --> 00:42:48,460
Where does mercury go?

880
00:42:48,460 --> 00:42:51,266
But then it was really a
horse trading kind of thing.

881
00:42:51,266 --> 00:42:52,640
I'll give you
switches and relays

882
00:42:52,640 --> 00:42:54,230
if you give me cosmetics.

883
00:42:54,230 --> 00:42:57,050
Because each country
wants to sort of

884
00:42:57,050 --> 00:43:00,870
protect its own interests there.

885
00:43:00,870 --> 00:43:03,870
Some might have mercury
free alternatives

886
00:43:03,870 --> 00:43:07,030
that they might want to sell.

887
00:43:07,030 --> 00:43:10,190
Others it might be a
particularly pressing issue,

888
00:43:10,190 --> 00:43:12,600
like this cosmetics.

889
00:43:12,600 --> 00:43:15,070
It might be a particular
public health issue

890
00:43:15,070 --> 00:43:17,680
in countries and in regions.

891
00:43:17,680 --> 00:43:22,320
Mercury is a component
of some skin lightening

892
00:43:22,320 --> 00:43:27,870
creams which have been--
people have tried to ban them.

893
00:43:27,870 --> 00:43:31,820
But again, countries with less
of a regulatory infrastructure,

894
00:43:31,820 --> 00:43:35,830
it actually-- again,
putting mercury directly

895
00:43:35,830 --> 00:43:41,350
on your skin, not a good idea,
and can be a big public health

896
00:43:41,350 --> 00:43:43,440
problem in some
communities where there's

897
00:43:43,440 --> 00:43:50,420
an interest in using these
things culturally and also

898
00:43:50,420 --> 00:43:53,170
in cultural practices,
like use of mercury

899
00:43:53,170 --> 00:43:59,480
in religious types of practices
that can be dangerous.

900
00:43:59,480 --> 00:44:04,650
So those cosmetics again,
greater than one PPM.

901
00:44:04,650 --> 00:44:07,810
Also topical antiseptics,
pesticides, biocides,

902
00:44:07,810 --> 00:44:13,140
that kind of thing, use mercury
to toxic kill the bacteria.

903
00:44:13,140 --> 00:44:15,430
There's other ways to do that.

904
00:44:15,430 --> 00:44:20,210
But again, in countries where
you can't really control import

905
00:44:20,210 --> 00:44:23,690
very well in terms
of your capacity,

906
00:44:23,690 --> 00:44:26,400
international
regulation can be an end

907
00:44:26,400 --> 00:44:29,050
run around that to think about.

908
00:44:32,500 --> 00:44:35,360
And again, for dental amalgam
there was a goal of phase down.

909
00:44:35,360 --> 00:44:36,810
But again, no set date.

910
00:44:36,810 --> 00:44:39,270
So to the extent
that you can, use

911
00:44:39,270 --> 00:44:42,060
the more expensive but more
environmentally friendly

912
00:44:42,060 --> 00:44:42,960
alternatives.

913
00:44:42,960 --> 00:44:45,210
And that actually ends up
getting into the environment

914
00:44:45,210 --> 00:44:46,840
quite a bit.

915
00:44:46,840 --> 00:44:50,907
Story in Massachusetts when
they required dental separators

916
00:44:50,907 --> 00:44:53,240
in dental offices-- it used
to be that they just flushed

917
00:44:53,240 --> 00:44:55,610
the stuff down the drain when
they changed your filing--

918
00:44:55,610 --> 00:44:57,594
they required dental
amalgam separators.

919
00:44:57,594 --> 00:44:59,010
You can actually
look at that date

920
00:44:59,010 --> 00:45:00,570
and look at the
mercury level in fish

921
00:45:00,570 --> 00:45:02,313
in the waterways
of Massachusetts

922
00:45:02,313 --> 00:45:05,280
and it goes dramatically
down right after that.

923
00:45:05,280 --> 00:45:08,960
It actually does wash
right into the waterways.

924
00:45:08,960 --> 00:45:15,094
Again, it's a lot of mercury
that's in a particular filling.

925
00:45:15,094 --> 00:45:15,594
Yeah?

926
00:45:15,594 --> 00:45:17,844
AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE].

927
00:45:17,844 --> 00:45:19,510
When they pick a date
to phase this out,

928
00:45:19,510 --> 00:45:24,390
2020, is this just sounds
good or is there some--

929
00:45:24,390 --> 00:45:27,100
NOELLE SELIN: It
just sounds good.

930
00:45:27,100 --> 00:45:29,300
AUDIENCE: Let's make
it far, far, far away.

931
00:45:29,300 --> 00:45:31,030
Not next year, not two years.

932
00:45:31,030 --> 00:45:31,704
Something that--

933
00:45:31,704 --> 00:45:33,120
NOELLE SELIN: And
it's negotiated.

934
00:45:33,120 --> 00:45:38,220
So people that want--
again, a lot of these things

935
00:45:38,220 --> 00:45:40,020
are phased out in Europe.

936
00:45:40,020 --> 00:45:43,520
And so the companies have
figured out a way around them.

937
00:45:43,520 --> 00:45:48,380
Europe has an interest in
getting these things globalized

938
00:45:48,380 --> 00:45:50,850
because they have very
strict regulations like we

939
00:45:50,850 --> 00:45:54,010
and like rows that
talk about what

940
00:45:54,010 --> 00:45:56,290
you need to sell
products in Europe.

941
00:45:56,290 --> 00:45:59,920
And to the extent that
becomes a global regulation,

942
00:45:59,920 --> 00:46:04,060
that obviously favors-- Europe
thinks it's the right thing

943
00:46:04,060 --> 00:46:06,070
to do, first of all.

944
00:46:06,070 --> 00:46:08,830
But also it makes
it a global standard

945
00:46:08,830 --> 00:46:12,160
as opposed to different
standards throughout the world.

946
00:46:12,160 --> 00:46:15,100
So you've got European
countries often

947
00:46:15,100 --> 00:46:17,150
pushing for earlier
and earlier phase outs.

948
00:46:17,150 --> 00:46:21,650
Now maybe China for example,
which actually produces

949
00:46:21,650 --> 00:46:24,430
a lot of these compact
fluorescent lamps,

950
00:46:24,430 --> 00:46:28,060
probably wants later
phase in dates.

951
00:46:28,060 --> 00:46:31,220
So 2020 emerges as a compromise.

952
00:46:31,220 --> 00:46:34,280
Again, thinking about the
timing of actually entering

953
00:46:34,280 --> 00:46:38,390
into force for a treaty, I think
you need 50 parties ratifying.

954
00:46:38,390 --> 00:46:40,900
US ratified really, really
quickly, because again,

955
00:46:40,900 --> 00:46:43,490
it just said rubber stamped it.

956
00:46:43,490 --> 00:46:45,690
It's the only country
to ratify so far.

957
00:46:48,780 --> 00:46:53,990
So conservatively at least 2015
before it enters into force.

958
00:46:53,990 --> 00:46:57,730
So setting a day before
that would be kind of weird.

959
00:46:57,730 --> 00:46:59,760
So yeah, you have
to phase it out

960
00:46:59,760 --> 00:47:03,020
before you actually signed it.

961
00:47:03,020 --> 00:47:08,660
So 2020 is a relatively
early date in this area.

962
00:47:08,660 --> 00:47:13,800
Mercury mining is phased
out also under the treaty,

963
00:47:13,800 --> 00:47:16,080
and it's 2035.

964
00:47:16,080 --> 00:47:21,390
Or no-- I think it's
15 years after entry

965
00:47:21,390 --> 00:47:24,240
into force for that particular
country or something like that.

966
00:47:24,240 --> 00:47:28,920
So it can be quite a long time.

967
00:47:28,920 --> 00:47:35,190
So going back a little bit
talking about mercury trade--

968
00:47:35,190 --> 00:47:38,220
so this just gives you a sense
of where mercury is flowing

969
00:47:38,220 --> 00:47:41,650
and where it's going--
again, since we've

970
00:47:41,650 --> 00:47:44,090
had the mercury export ban act.

971
00:47:44,090 --> 00:47:46,130
But this is actually just
of commodity mercury.

972
00:47:46,130 --> 00:47:48,940
So this isn't
mercury in products.

973
00:47:48,940 --> 00:47:53,740
So the compact fluorescent
bulbs that we import from China

974
00:47:53,740 --> 00:47:58,430
are not included in these flows.

975
00:47:58,430 --> 00:48:00,810
Yet primary mercury
mining in Kurdistan,

976
00:48:00,810 --> 00:48:04,040
they're actually closing
their mine partly because

977
00:48:04,040 --> 00:48:05,985
of US assistance.

978
00:48:08,520 --> 00:48:13,370
China has no interest in
actually closing their mine,

979
00:48:13,370 --> 00:48:17,110
although they will have to under
the treaty if they ratify it.

980
00:48:17,110 --> 00:48:20,980
But China's mostly using itself.

981
00:48:20,980 --> 00:48:24,570
So the mercury that
gets used in products--

982
00:48:24,570 --> 00:48:29,030
so you don't see much of an
arrow there coming out of China

983
00:48:29,030 --> 00:48:32,390
because it's not
internationally traded.

984
00:48:32,390 --> 00:48:35,250
But again, a lot of flows
for a lot of this mercury

985
00:48:35,250 --> 00:48:39,390
is coming from recycled mercury,
mercury stocks, mercury in use.

986
00:48:39,390 --> 00:48:41,764
So you've got mercury
flowing as mercury,

987
00:48:41,764 --> 00:48:43,430
then getting incorporated
into products.

988
00:48:43,430 --> 00:48:46,995
You get obviously the trade
in products, and then trade

989
00:48:46,995 --> 00:48:48,800
in wastes.

990
00:48:48,800 --> 00:48:55,290
So once the product is no longer
useful, what do you do with it?

991
00:48:55,290 --> 00:48:58,190
I said that the mercury is a
full life cycle convention.

992
00:48:58,190 --> 00:49:00,640
It does is actually
sort of yield

993
00:49:00,640 --> 00:49:03,260
a lot of the waste issues
to the Basel Convention,

994
00:49:03,260 --> 00:49:07,170
which deals with
wastes internationally.

995
00:49:07,170 --> 00:49:12,060
So it has sound guidelines
of trans-boundary movements

996
00:49:12,060 --> 00:49:13,300
of hazardous waste.

997
00:49:13,300 --> 00:49:15,990
And that pretty much
covers the mercury.

998
00:49:15,990 --> 00:49:17,960
So they tried to
make that consistent.

999
00:49:17,960 --> 00:49:22,580
Problem is that it doesn't
have the same set of parties.

1000
00:49:22,580 --> 00:49:25,790
In particular, the US is not
party to the Basel Convention.

1001
00:49:25,790 --> 00:49:29,680
But pretty much does
the required things

1002
00:49:29,680 --> 00:49:32,570
that the Basel Convention
does in the sense

1003
00:49:32,570 --> 00:49:35,940
of being able to deal
with hazardous waste

1004
00:49:35,940 --> 00:49:36,980
in a reasonable way.

1005
00:49:38,956 --> 00:49:45,075
AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE] if they
cut off the influx of mercury

1006
00:49:45,075 --> 00:49:47,158
then they will only be
stuck with trying to manage

1007
00:49:47,158 --> 00:49:48,778
their own creation of mercury?

1008
00:49:48,778 --> 00:49:49,720
NOELLE SELIN: Right.

1009
00:49:49,720 --> 00:49:55,620
And to the extent that
they actually use mercury--

1010
00:49:55,620 --> 00:49:59,980
I'm not sure exactly what
the use of mercury will be.

1011
00:49:59,980 --> 00:50:05,010
But again, trade is
restricted under the treaty.

1012
00:50:05,010 --> 00:50:06,330
US already has an export ban.

1013
00:50:06,330 --> 00:50:09,330
EU has an export ban.

1014
00:50:09,330 --> 00:50:12,680
Mercury trade will only be
allowed for exempted uses.

1015
00:50:12,680 --> 00:50:14,430
So if you're making
one of those exemption

1016
00:50:14,430 --> 00:50:19,570
processes like dental amalgam--
that might be Australia.

1017
00:50:19,570 --> 00:50:21,650
It might just be
importing for teeth.

1018
00:50:21,650 --> 00:50:22,680
Who knows?

1019
00:50:22,680 --> 00:50:25,590
But again, if you're using it
for an exempted use, it's OK.

1020
00:50:25,590 --> 00:50:27,550
If you're not, it's not.

1021
00:50:27,550 --> 00:50:30,280
And that sort of actually
is a really good segue

1022
00:50:30,280 --> 00:50:33,340
into the artisanal and
small gold mining story.

1023
00:50:33,340 --> 00:50:35,940
Because again, thinking
about where mercury goes

1024
00:50:35,940 --> 00:50:39,910
and where mercury is in trade,
artisanal small scale gold

1025
00:50:39,910 --> 00:50:43,980
mining is a really big deal in a
lot of countries, big emission.

1026
00:50:43,980 --> 00:50:47,610
But the question is, how
do they get their mercury?

1027
00:50:47,610 --> 00:50:51,100
You're a small scale gold
miner in a developing country.

1028
00:50:51,100 --> 00:50:57,430
You need to buy mercury to
figure out how you actually

1029
00:50:57,430 --> 00:51:00,370
mine your gold.

1030
00:51:00,370 --> 00:51:03,800
So this is a figure
from a paper that

1031
00:51:03,800 --> 00:51:07,030
looks at what the artisanal
and small scale gold mining

1032
00:51:07,030 --> 00:51:09,700
process is and how that relates
to the gold supply chain, which

1033
00:51:09,700 --> 00:51:11,533
I thought would be
interesting for you guys.

1034
00:51:11,533 --> 00:51:16,177
So you started at the top with
mercury exporting countries.

1035
00:51:16,177 --> 00:51:17,760
And a lot of those
exporting countries

1036
00:51:17,760 --> 00:51:20,190
think they're
exporting to dentists.

1037
00:51:20,190 --> 00:51:23,710
So one of my colleagues works in
the artisanal small scale gold

1038
00:51:23,710 --> 00:51:26,280
mining area and he
showed this picture

1039
00:51:26,280 --> 00:51:30,010
of an artisanal small scale
gold mining community.

1040
00:51:30,010 --> 00:51:33,850
And it was mercury dental shop.

1041
00:51:33,850 --> 00:51:35,450
Like yeah, right.

1042
00:51:35,450 --> 00:51:36,770
You're a mercury dental shop.

1043
00:51:36,770 --> 00:51:38,830
You're in a gold
mining community.

1044
00:51:38,830 --> 00:51:41,390
But in a lot of cases,
they'll buy mercury

1045
00:51:41,390 --> 00:51:45,230
from dentists or
a dental middleman

1046
00:51:45,230 --> 00:51:48,612
and actually sell
illegally to the miners.

1047
00:51:48,612 --> 00:51:50,570
So then you're the miner,
and miners over here,

1048
00:51:50,570 --> 00:51:51,900
they dig your pit.

1049
00:51:51,900 --> 00:51:53,820
You get the ore.

1050
00:51:53,820 --> 00:51:56,760
And then mix it altogether.

1051
00:51:56,760 --> 00:51:58,820
So then what you're
left with is you're

1052
00:51:58,820 --> 00:52:02,350
left with some mercury
amalgamated with gold.

1053
00:52:02,350 --> 00:52:05,600
And you've got some waste.

1054
00:52:05,600 --> 00:52:08,122
And that's where you
have this amalgam ball

1055
00:52:08,122 --> 00:52:09,080
and you have the waste.

1056
00:52:09,080 --> 00:52:10,740
Now the waste is going
to have some rock in it,

1057
00:52:10,740 --> 00:52:11,870
it's going to have
some water, it's

1058
00:52:11,870 --> 00:52:13,619
probably going to have
some mercury in it,

1059
00:52:13,619 --> 00:52:17,522
because you couldn't get all
of it to stick to the gold.

1060
00:52:17,522 --> 00:52:18,730
And what do you do with that?

1061
00:52:18,730 --> 00:52:20,850
You just dump that.

1062
00:52:20,850 --> 00:52:24,870
So you release mercury
laden byproduct

1063
00:52:24,870 --> 00:52:27,860
into the waterways, which
could have local impacts.

1064
00:52:27,860 --> 00:52:30,870
But probably not going
to enter the global pool.

1065
00:52:30,870 --> 00:52:34,040
Because again, you just rinsed
it out into your local place.

1066
00:52:34,040 --> 00:52:35,380
It might.

1067
00:52:35,380 --> 00:52:37,210
We don't know the
science on that.

1068
00:52:37,210 --> 00:52:39,760
But you've got
amalgam ball, which is

1069
00:52:39,760 --> 00:52:42,860
must your money, with your gold.

1070
00:52:42,860 --> 00:52:45,500
But it's bound up
with the mercury.

1071
00:52:45,500 --> 00:52:47,506
So what do you do?

1072
00:52:47,506 --> 00:52:50,860
You can do a couple of things.

1073
00:52:50,860 --> 00:52:53,520
You can burn it yourself.

1074
00:52:53,520 --> 00:52:58,680
So this would be
the artisanal part.

1075
00:52:58,680 --> 00:53:01,170
You're actually going
to just get a pan,

1076
00:53:01,170 --> 00:53:03,215
you're going to light
a fire under it,

1077
00:53:03,215 --> 00:53:05,110
and you're going to let
the mercury burn off.

1078
00:53:05,110 --> 00:53:07,200
Now that's not
particularly efficient,

1079
00:53:07,200 --> 00:53:10,110
but it's probably the cheapest
way you're going to do it.

1080
00:53:10,110 --> 00:53:12,980
Now one of the ways to
minimize the mercury loss

1081
00:53:12,980 --> 00:53:14,750
is to have a retort.

1082
00:53:14,750 --> 00:53:16,670
So basically you have
a little cap on it.

1083
00:53:19,727 --> 00:53:22,060
The mercury condenses and
then you drip the mercury back

1084
00:53:22,060 --> 00:53:23,160
into a little cup.

1085
00:53:23,160 --> 00:53:24,530
You could use the mercury again.

1086
00:53:24,530 --> 00:53:25,920
It saves it from going
into the atmosphere.

1087
00:53:25,920 --> 00:53:27,270
It also saves you
some money because you

1088
00:53:27,270 --> 00:53:29,120
don't have to go back
and buy more mercury,

1089
00:53:29,120 --> 00:53:30,509
or buy less of it.

1090
00:53:30,509 --> 00:53:32,050
So that's been one
of the things that

1091
00:53:32,050 --> 00:53:35,770
has come up in trying to
minimize the mercury lost.

1092
00:53:35,770 --> 00:53:37,614
But again, as you
think about it,

1093
00:53:37,614 --> 00:53:39,530
not the most healthy
place in the world to be,

1094
00:53:39,530 --> 00:53:45,860
breathing over a
burning mercury pit.

1095
00:53:45,860 --> 00:53:50,000
Again, lots of local issues.

1096
00:53:50,000 --> 00:53:57,060
So you've got this AGSM product.

1097
00:53:57,060 --> 00:54:01,430
Sometimes that burning can
happen in local shops as well.

1098
00:54:01,430 --> 00:54:02,650
That's more of a small scale.

1099
00:54:02,650 --> 00:54:05,520
So you take your amalgam
ball to your local shop.

1100
00:54:05,520 --> 00:54:06,770
More efficient.

1101
00:54:06,770 --> 00:54:08,020
That guy's going to get a cut.

1102
00:54:08,020 --> 00:54:11,420
So you think about that
depending on the community.

1103
00:54:11,420 --> 00:54:13,860
That might happen.

1104
00:54:13,860 --> 00:54:18,740
Usually a buyer, who can
double as a mercury dealer,

1105
00:54:18,740 --> 00:54:23,460
buys that intermediate gold
product, does a final burning

1106
00:54:23,460 --> 00:54:26,170
step that makes
it more pure gold,

1107
00:54:26,170 --> 00:54:30,670
then you enter the
regular gold supply chain.

1108
00:54:30,670 --> 00:54:34,930
And you end up with, on
the market, about up to 30%

1109
00:54:34,930 --> 00:54:37,720
of artisanal and small
scale gold mining gold

1110
00:54:37,720 --> 00:54:41,530
that then goes to a combination
of jewelry and investors

1111
00:54:41,530 --> 00:54:43,550
in industry.

1112
00:54:43,550 --> 00:54:48,700
So it really is not a
insignificant amount

1113
00:54:48,700 --> 00:54:54,190
of gold on the market that
comes out of this process

1114
00:54:54,190 --> 00:54:55,800
and involves mercury.

1115
00:54:55,800 --> 00:54:58,870
So again, with the
price of gold the way

1116
00:54:58,870 --> 00:55:01,510
it is, this is
something that has

1117
00:55:01,510 --> 00:55:05,200
a lot of influence on
the livelihood of people

1118
00:55:05,200 --> 00:55:07,270
who are involved in this.

1119
00:55:07,270 --> 00:55:09,570
So it's a development issue.

1120
00:55:09,570 --> 00:55:12,000
It's a local community issue.

1121
00:55:12,000 --> 00:55:13,890
It's also an international
market issue.

1122
00:55:16,870 --> 00:55:21,030
So there's a lot of
different certifications

1123
00:55:21,030 --> 00:55:24,220
that come into gold,
some of which--

1124
00:55:24,220 --> 00:55:26,383
at least one, I forget
the-- I don't have it

1125
00:55:26,383 --> 00:55:29,560
in my notes, the
particular ones.

1126
00:55:29,560 --> 00:55:33,950
But one of which does
incorporate mercury

1127
00:55:33,950 --> 00:55:37,950
into the certification
standards and one doesn't.

1128
00:55:37,950 --> 00:55:40,640
So there's a difference in--
there's a couple of different,

1129
00:55:40,640 --> 00:55:42,840
like fair trade,
fair mine, the talk

1130
00:55:42,840 --> 00:55:47,420
about the conditions of the
miners and various things.

1131
00:55:47,420 --> 00:55:50,320
Whether or not-- and
how-- they cover mercury

1132
00:55:50,320 --> 00:55:52,450
is an open question.

1133
00:55:52,450 --> 00:55:55,330
So will that help if you
have more of a certification

1134
00:55:55,330 --> 00:55:56,410
process?

1135
00:55:56,410 --> 00:55:57,220
Not sure.

1136
00:55:57,220 --> 00:56:00,660
Now how does the
treaty deal with this?

1137
00:56:00,660 --> 00:56:02,960
Well, it has a
number of provisions

1138
00:56:02,960 --> 00:56:08,960
that really boil down to
essentially capacity building,

1139
00:56:08,960 --> 00:56:12,430
suggests that to the extent
possible these sectors be

1140
00:56:12,430 --> 00:56:16,260
regulated and sort
of formalized,

1141
00:56:16,260 --> 00:56:18,160
because they're often
informal sectors.

1142
00:56:18,160 --> 00:56:23,330
Again, illegal mercury, black
market mercury essentially,

1143
00:56:23,330 --> 00:56:26,780
that's from dentists.

1144
00:56:26,780 --> 00:56:29,710
The types of
technologies that can

1145
00:56:29,710 --> 00:56:32,930
prevent the releases of mercury
and make it a little safer

1146
00:56:32,930 --> 00:56:36,950
be adopted in a more
widespread basis.

1147
00:56:36,950 --> 00:56:40,420
But again, it's not eliminating
artisanal small scale

1148
00:56:40,420 --> 00:56:43,680
gold mining because that is a
livelihood for a lot of people.

1149
00:56:43,680 --> 00:56:47,670
It's trying to make it less
mercury dependent and less

1150
00:56:47,670 --> 00:56:51,410
toxic, both for the miners
and for the environment.

1151
00:56:51,410 --> 00:56:56,480
So they've basically estimated
that they could probably

1152
00:56:56,480 --> 00:57:01,140
have the amount of mercury
based on these estimates.

1153
00:57:01,140 --> 00:57:04,100
So there's a lot of opportunity
for reductions, again,

1154
00:57:04,100 --> 00:57:08,950
because a lot of these processes
are really inefficient.

1155
00:57:08,950 --> 00:57:11,320
So I want to just
end with talking

1156
00:57:11,320 --> 00:57:16,360
about sort of the
general context

1157
00:57:16,360 --> 00:57:19,340
in which this mercury
regulation is happening,

1158
00:57:19,340 --> 00:57:24,670
which is the overall
international regulations

1159
00:57:24,670 --> 00:57:27,750
and what's happening globally.

1160
00:57:27,750 --> 00:57:32,570
Because obviously these
producers and people

1161
00:57:32,570 --> 00:57:34,845
who are dealing with
mercury related issues

1162
00:57:34,845 --> 00:57:37,470
aren't just dealing with this as
an international environmental

1163
00:57:37,470 --> 00:57:38,450
issue.

1164
00:57:38,450 --> 00:57:43,310
There might be other chemicals,
other different kinds

1165
00:57:43,310 --> 00:57:44,210
of considerations.

1166
00:57:44,210 --> 00:57:47,860
So this is a figure
that one of my students

1167
00:57:47,860 --> 00:57:52,937
put together after going
through the negotiations of all

1168
00:57:52,937 --> 00:57:55,020
the different international
organizations that had

1169
00:57:55,020 --> 00:57:57,400
a roll in the mercury treaty.

1170
00:57:57,400 --> 00:58:02,220
And one really obvious link is
through the existing chemical

1171
00:58:02,220 --> 00:58:04,520
treaties and institutions.

1172
00:58:04,520 --> 00:58:06,200
So the Stockholm
Convention is on

1173
00:58:06,200 --> 00:58:07,560
persistent organic pollutants.

1174
00:58:07,560 --> 00:58:12,140
So a lot of pesticides-- DTP,
PCB, industrial chemicals

1175
00:58:12,140 --> 00:58:15,410
like PCBs, also regulating
dioxins and furans

1176
00:58:15,410 --> 00:58:16,470
internationally.

1177
00:58:16,470 --> 00:58:20,770
The Rotterdam Convention is on
trade in hazardous chemicals.

1178
00:58:20,770 --> 00:58:22,440
It's a prior informed
consent provision,

1179
00:58:22,440 --> 00:58:26,000
so it mandates
that countries that

1180
00:58:26,000 --> 00:58:28,200
are taking imports of
hazardous chemicals

1181
00:58:28,200 --> 00:58:33,590
must give their informed consent
prior to that chemical being

1182
00:58:33,590 --> 00:58:34,280
exported.

1183
00:58:34,280 --> 00:58:37,330
This is trying to prevent
the idea of something's

1184
00:58:37,330 --> 00:58:38,240
banned in the US.

1185
00:58:38,240 --> 00:58:43,390
The US decides you
guys will take it,

1186
00:58:43,390 --> 00:58:45,480
so let's just export it to you.

1187
00:58:45,480 --> 00:58:48,550
The idea is it shifts the
burden to the exporting country

1188
00:58:48,550 --> 00:58:51,300
to make sure that that country
knows what it's getting

1189
00:58:51,300 --> 00:58:53,470
and knows that you
think it's dangerous.

1190
00:58:53,470 --> 00:58:56,450
So there's a list of
chemicals on that convention.

1191
00:58:56,450 --> 00:58:58,620
Again, that's similar to
the prior informed consent

1192
00:58:58,620 --> 00:59:00,430
process that's in the
Basel Convention that

1193
00:59:00,430 --> 00:59:02,129
deals with wastes.

1194
00:59:02,129 --> 00:59:03,920
So again, there's
potential synergies there

1195
00:59:03,920 --> 00:59:07,130
because Rotterdam
and Basel also have

1196
00:59:07,130 --> 00:59:09,070
things potentially
containing mercury

1197
00:59:09,070 --> 00:59:13,150
and also this issue of trade.

1198
00:59:13,150 --> 00:59:16,590
Funding often comes from the
Global Environment Facility,

1199
00:59:16,590 --> 00:59:20,052
which is basically donations
from the rich countries.

1200
00:59:20,052 --> 00:59:21,760
Minamata Convention
has an additional new

1201
00:59:21,760 --> 00:59:23,610
designed specific
funding mechanism

1202
00:59:23,610 --> 00:59:26,400
to be negotiated fully.

1203
00:59:26,400 --> 00:59:29,719
But that has to do with issues
that developing countries

1204
00:59:29,719 --> 00:59:32,010
in particular have with the
Global Environment Facility

1205
00:59:32,010 --> 00:59:33,370
and its responsiveness.

1206
00:59:33,370 --> 00:59:38,250
So that was negotiated as
kind of a hybrid compromise.

1207
00:59:38,250 --> 00:59:41,710
Possibly some
multilateral funds that

1208
00:59:41,710 --> 00:59:45,810
actually influence other
environmental negotiations.

1209
00:59:45,810 --> 00:59:48,960
But you have a bunch of other
international organizations

1210
00:59:48,960 --> 00:59:53,180
like World Health Organization
that sets guidance

1211
00:59:53,180 --> 00:59:56,420
for mercury levels
in fish and also

1212
00:59:56,420 --> 00:59:59,800
is involved in
the vaccine thing,

1213
00:59:59,800 --> 01:00:01,650
related to the dental thing.

1214
01:00:01,650 --> 01:00:05,970
So thinking about connections
with that because you

1215
01:00:05,970 --> 01:00:09,340
get very health relevant issue.

1216
01:00:09,340 --> 01:00:11,310
International Labour
Organization--

1217
01:00:11,310 --> 01:00:15,880
obviously in
particular the miners,

1218
01:00:15,880 --> 01:00:20,580
and what people are exposed
to in particular factories is

1219
01:00:20,580 --> 01:00:22,800
often in ILO.

1220
01:00:22,800 --> 01:00:24,800
Food and Agriculture
Organization, to the center

1221
01:00:24,800 --> 01:00:26,980
that involves pesticides.

1222
01:00:26,980 --> 01:00:29,330
That's one that comes up.

1223
01:00:29,330 --> 01:00:31,960
So that's the
international bits.

1224
01:00:31,960 --> 01:00:35,440
You've also got a bunch
of guiding principles that

1225
01:00:35,440 --> 01:00:35,940
come out.

1226
01:00:35,940 --> 01:00:37,390
The idea that you
can do whatever

1227
01:00:37,390 --> 01:00:39,156
you want to your own
environment but you

1228
01:00:39,156 --> 01:00:40,780
have to watch out
with others comes out

1229
01:00:40,780 --> 01:00:41,738
of the Rio Declaration.

1230
01:00:41,738 --> 01:00:43,090
That's 1992.

1231
01:00:43,090 --> 01:00:47,190
There's the general discussions
over a sustainable development.

1232
01:00:47,190 --> 01:00:49,290
These all kind of
inform in a general way

1233
01:00:49,290 --> 01:00:51,180
the kinds of regulations
that are developed

1234
01:00:51,180 --> 01:00:53,685
under the Minamata Convention.

1235
01:00:53,685 --> 01:00:55,310
Things like the
precautionary principle

1236
01:00:55,310 --> 01:00:58,260
come out of these principles.

1237
01:00:58,260 --> 01:01:01,330
And then, of course, you have
multilateral regulations--

1238
01:01:01,330 --> 01:01:04,330
domestic agreements,
bilateral agreements,

1239
01:01:04,330 --> 01:01:07,700
regional agreement--
that are also

1240
01:01:07,700 --> 01:01:11,030
dealing with mercury
but on different levels

1241
01:01:11,030 --> 01:01:13,540
and among different
countries that may or may not

1242
01:01:13,540 --> 01:01:15,820
be consistent or not.

1243
01:01:15,820 --> 01:01:18,570
Again, domestic
governments try to make

1244
01:01:18,570 --> 01:01:20,850
it as consistent as possible
in the negotiations.

1245
01:01:20,850 --> 01:01:24,330
But everyone's
trying to do that,

1246
01:01:24,330 --> 01:01:26,950
so it might not be possible.

1247
01:01:26,950 --> 01:01:31,400
So that's all I had
for prepared slides.

1248
01:01:31,400 --> 01:01:34,470
I was told to keep it to about
an hour-- I think I made it--

1249
01:01:34,470 --> 01:01:36,600
and open up for
discussion after that.

1250
01:01:36,600 --> 01:01:38,660
AUDIENCE: I was
just wondering what

1251
01:01:38,660 --> 01:01:42,540
happens to mercury
once whoever's doing

1252
01:01:42,540 --> 01:01:44,440
the proper disposal gets it.

1253
01:01:44,440 --> 01:01:46,197
Do they convert it to
some safe chemical?

1254
01:01:46,197 --> 01:01:48,780
Do they put it barrels and bury
it under a mountain in Nevada?

1255
01:01:48,780 --> 01:01:50,290
NOELLE SELIN: The latter.

1256
01:01:50,290 --> 01:01:52,791
Mercury's an element.

1257
01:01:52,791 --> 01:01:53,790
You can't get rid of it.

1258
01:01:53,790 --> 01:01:57,330
So not much you can do about it.

1259
01:01:57,330 --> 01:02:00,870
The nice thing is, the
quantities are pretty small.

1260
01:02:00,870 --> 01:02:04,730
So again, encapsulating
it, burying it barrels

1261
01:02:04,730 --> 01:02:09,000
is pretty much what
you want to do with it.

1262
01:02:09,000 --> 01:02:12,250
Again, you're talking
about tons per year.

1263
01:02:12,250 --> 01:02:15,330
When you're talking about
carbon it's gigatons per year.

1264
01:02:15,330 --> 01:02:17,360
Mercury is in actual
tons per year.

1265
01:02:17,360 --> 01:02:18,780
And mercury is pretty dense.

1266
01:02:18,780 --> 01:02:23,785
So this is also why your
clump of mercury in your tooth

1267
01:02:23,785 --> 01:02:26,640
or in the thermometer is
actually pretty significant,

1268
01:02:26,640 --> 01:02:32,300
because there's a lot of
mercury there in comparison

1269
01:02:32,300 --> 01:02:35,710
to the global budget,
whereas the amount of carbon

1270
01:02:35,710 --> 01:02:36,720
is teeny tiny.

1271
01:02:40,580 --> 01:02:43,151
But yeah, I'm not sure
about Nevada specifically.

1272
01:02:43,151 --> 01:02:44,400
You could put it in a trailer.

1273
01:02:44,400 --> 01:02:46,180
I've seen mercury trailers.

1274
01:02:46,180 --> 01:02:49,109
The strategic mercury stockpile
was in trailers for a while.

1275
01:02:49,109 --> 01:02:50,400
AUDIENCE: Sounds pretty secure.

1276
01:02:54,220 --> 01:03:00,010
So do you see a company
that you thought

1277
01:03:00,010 --> 01:03:04,060
was doing something right,
in terms of understanding

1278
01:03:04,060 --> 01:03:06,370
the role that they could play?

1279
01:03:06,370 --> 01:03:08,880
Because this seems
pretty out of my hands.

1280
01:03:08,880 --> 01:03:10,780
So as a company at
the end of the day,

1281
01:03:10,780 --> 01:03:11,950
there's nothing I can do.

1282
01:03:11,950 --> 01:03:16,120
I just probably can go
to local state official,

1283
01:03:16,120 --> 01:03:19,420
voice my concerns,
hopefully get him elected,

1284
01:03:19,420 --> 01:03:22,145
and let the whole
thing just kind of--

1285
01:03:22,145 --> 01:03:24,340
NOELLE SELIN: There were
definitely companies

1286
01:03:24,340 --> 01:03:28,910
involved, but in a limited way.

1287
01:03:28,910 --> 01:03:32,080
The lighting manufacturers
were there a lot.

1288
01:03:32,080 --> 01:03:34,930
But mainly I saw them
talk about their products

1289
01:03:34,930 --> 01:03:38,900
and their minimization and
really kind of get the message

1290
01:03:38,900 --> 01:03:41,580
that we are trying to take the
mercury out of our lighting

1291
01:03:41,580 --> 01:03:45,930
and we're doing a good
job, so don't ban us.

1292
01:03:45,930 --> 01:03:49,340
And I think to that
extent there was

1293
01:03:49,340 --> 01:03:52,020
a lot of awareness
raising of technologies

1294
01:03:52,020 --> 01:03:55,170
and available technologies
that was done by companies

1295
01:03:55,170 --> 01:03:58,060
in these international fora.

1296
01:03:58,060 --> 01:04:02,780
Again, it's an
opportunity to trumpet

1297
01:04:02,780 --> 01:04:06,010
your green technologies.

1298
01:04:06,010 --> 01:04:10,660
So that would be sort of the
positive end of companies

1299
01:04:10,660 --> 01:04:13,750
advocating-- mercury free
alternative companies,

1300
01:04:13,750 --> 01:04:14,490
definitely.

1301
01:04:14,490 --> 01:04:16,950
If you had a
mercury-free something,

1302
01:04:16,950 --> 01:04:21,000
you definitely were
waving the flag for it.

1303
01:04:21,000 --> 01:04:23,300
There were other
companies that were there

1304
01:04:23,300 --> 01:04:27,460
to make sure that their
interests were protected.

1305
01:04:27,460 --> 01:04:29,200
Oil and gas.

1306
01:04:29,200 --> 01:04:32,230
Mercury is a small
contaminant in oil and gas.

1307
01:04:32,230 --> 01:04:35,820
Mercury is mostly
a concern on site.

1308
01:04:35,820 --> 01:04:40,460
So because of the way oil is
distilled in the final product,

1309
01:04:40,460 --> 01:04:41,880
there's not of mercury.

1310
01:04:41,880 --> 01:04:49,610
If you have the
unfortunate location

1311
01:04:49,610 --> 01:04:52,930
of being near a mercury deposit
when you're drilling your oil,

1312
01:04:52,930 --> 01:04:54,580
you've got a problem.

1313
01:04:54,580 --> 01:04:56,450
But you've got a
problem there, and you

1314
01:04:56,450 --> 01:04:58,200
have to deal with it there.

1315
01:04:58,200 --> 01:05:01,940
Because if you get mercury into
your oil distillation process,

1316
01:05:01,940 --> 01:05:05,020
it really gums up the works
as far as I understand.

1317
01:05:05,020 --> 01:05:06,717
So the companies
were saying, hey,

1318
01:05:06,717 --> 01:05:08,550
this is not really an
international problem.

1319
01:05:08,550 --> 01:05:10,480
This is something we deal with.

1320
01:05:10,480 --> 01:05:12,770
We would really
prefer that you not

1321
01:05:12,770 --> 01:05:16,290
regulate mercury and oil and
gas in an international way.

1322
01:05:16,290 --> 01:05:19,770
And there were a lot of
countries on that bandwagon,

1323
01:05:19,770 --> 01:05:21,550
too.

1324
01:05:21,550 --> 01:05:26,732
Once it was clear that mercury
emissions regulations were not

1325
01:05:26,732 --> 01:05:28,710
going to be applied
to oil and gas,

1326
01:05:28,710 --> 01:05:33,240
Saudi Arabia decided that they
were going to go to lunch.

1327
01:05:33,240 --> 01:05:36,830
So things like that.

1328
01:05:36,830 --> 01:05:40,310
And again, awareness raising
of the kinds of things

1329
01:05:40,310 --> 01:05:42,750
that international
industries do.

1330
01:05:42,750 --> 01:05:47,050
So even if it's not
subject to the regulation,

1331
01:05:47,050 --> 01:05:49,030
you have assessments
that come up

1332
01:05:49,030 --> 01:05:51,570
that say, what are
best practices?

1333
01:05:51,570 --> 01:05:54,760
Because your multinational
companies might know

1334
01:05:54,760 --> 01:05:58,780
this is what you do when you
hit mercury in your gas deposit,

1335
01:05:58,780 --> 01:06:02,910
but not all companies
might be aware of that.

1336
01:06:02,910 --> 01:06:06,300
So again, that comes into the
capacity building, awareness

1337
01:06:06,300 --> 01:06:09,070
raising, making
toolboxes to figure out

1338
01:06:09,070 --> 01:06:11,910
how much mercury you're
emitting in your process.

1339
01:06:11,910 --> 01:06:15,200
These things come out of
international negotiations

1340
01:06:15,200 --> 01:06:18,539
a lot.

1341
01:06:18,539 --> 01:06:21,410
AUDIENCE: The other
observation-- we

1342
01:06:21,410 --> 01:06:25,750
we're going through
the importance of US

1343
01:06:25,750 --> 01:06:31,946
and European relation to set
the way-- so in some sense,

1344
01:06:31,946 --> 01:06:34,940
if you do what Europe
is doing, you're

1345
01:06:34,940 --> 01:06:38,710
in pretty good shape in
terms of anticipating

1346
01:06:38,710 --> 01:06:40,470
what could become global.

1347
01:06:40,470 --> 01:06:41,686
Is that a fair assessment?

1348
01:06:41,686 --> 01:06:43,102
NOELLE SELIN: I
think that's fair,

1349
01:06:43,102 --> 01:06:44,930
and I think that's
a strategic choice.

1350
01:06:44,930 --> 01:06:48,270
So one of the things that
that's changed over the years--

1351
01:06:48,270 --> 01:06:50,150
it used to be that
the US was really

1352
01:06:50,150 --> 01:06:53,800
the global standard leader in
international environmental

1353
01:06:53,800 --> 01:06:54,340
things.

1354
01:06:54,340 --> 01:06:56,300
And the US was kind
of a first mover

1355
01:06:56,300 --> 01:06:58,530
in a lot of things
like the Clean Air Act,

1356
01:06:58,530 --> 01:07:01,140
pesticide regulation, et cetera.

1357
01:07:01,140 --> 01:07:03,960
And in the last decade,
decade and a half or so,

1358
01:07:03,960 --> 01:07:05,545
it's really been the EU.

1359
01:07:05,545 --> 01:07:08,330
The EU is really the
global standard leader

1360
01:07:08,330 --> 01:07:10,590
in the international
environment,

1361
01:07:10,590 --> 01:07:12,210
particularly in
the chemicals area.

1362
01:07:15,440 --> 01:07:18,480
And I think there's a
clear effort by the EU

1363
01:07:18,480 --> 01:07:23,380
to actually globalize
these kinds of standards.

1364
01:07:23,380 --> 01:07:25,960
A strategic goal, in a sense.

1365
01:07:25,960 --> 01:07:28,070
And part of that's
competitiveness, part of that

1366
01:07:28,070 --> 01:07:32,680
is, well, we think it's
the right thing to do.

1367
01:07:32,680 --> 01:07:34,970
Because it makes
everybody safer,

1368
01:07:34,970 --> 01:07:38,200
and if we think something's too
dangerous for our population,

1369
01:07:38,200 --> 01:07:42,740
why should it be OK for others?

1370
01:07:42,740 --> 01:07:46,080
But again, with these kinds of
chemicals regulations that are

1371
01:07:46,080 --> 01:07:50,150
going in the EU, you see that.

1372
01:07:50,150 --> 01:07:53,120
Now, you do see
push back on that.

1373
01:07:53,120 --> 01:07:56,560
The US saying, hey,
this is too far.

1374
01:07:56,560 --> 01:08:00,630
And it ending up in trade
disputes and various things.

1375
01:08:00,630 --> 01:08:02,400
You see that with CO2.

1376
01:08:02,400 --> 01:08:08,250
But I think you do see
chemicals versions of that.

1377
01:08:08,250 --> 01:08:12,090
But again, it's a
multi-level thing, too.

1378
01:08:12,090 --> 01:08:15,140
In the US
traditionally how a lot

1379
01:08:15,140 --> 01:08:17,189
of these environmental
regulations came to pass

1380
01:08:17,189 --> 01:08:19,880
was that you have
a leading state.

1381
01:08:19,880 --> 01:08:23,191
So the US regulation for the
Toxics Release Inventory,

1382
01:08:23,191 --> 01:08:25,149
where you have to report
if you release toxics,

1383
01:08:25,149 --> 01:08:29,100
came out of really a state
initiative in New Jersey first.

1384
01:08:29,100 --> 01:08:32,359
So you get a few leader states.

1385
01:08:32,359 --> 01:08:35,430
California does a lot
in terms of leading

1386
01:08:35,430 --> 01:08:36,479
environmental regulation.

1387
01:08:40,090 --> 01:08:42,979
The interaction between
California and the EU

1388
01:08:42,979 --> 01:08:45,200
is actually really
interesting because you

1389
01:08:45,200 --> 01:08:49,160
see California now copying
a lot of the EU regulations.

1390
01:08:49,160 --> 01:08:51,740
You do see a lot
of copying as well.

1391
01:08:51,740 --> 01:08:54,100
A lot of developing
countries when

1392
01:08:54,100 --> 01:08:58,144
stressed with the idea of doing
environmental regulations says,

1393
01:08:58,144 --> 01:09:01,020
gee, what's Germany doing?

1394
01:09:01,020 --> 01:09:03,899
What's the US doing?

1395
01:09:03,899 --> 01:09:06,580
Can we just go with that?

1396
01:09:06,580 --> 01:09:08,880
Because again,
the capacity to do

1397
01:09:08,880 --> 01:09:12,210
these kinds of real
technical analyses of, well,

1398
01:09:12,210 --> 01:09:13,113
do we set it at five?

1399
01:09:13,113 --> 01:09:14,029
Do we set it at seven?

1400
01:09:14,029 --> 01:09:15,699
What does really make sense?

1401
01:09:15,699 --> 01:09:17,790
A lot of developing
countries don't have that,

1402
01:09:17,790 --> 01:09:21,320
so they say-- that's
really how China

1403
01:09:21,320 --> 01:09:22,819
developed their
mercury threshold is

1404
01:09:22,819 --> 01:09:24,656
took the one from Germany.

1405
01:09:24,656 --> 01:09:27,670
I talked to the
Chinese researchers

1406
01:09:27,670 --> 01:09:29,140
that have informed that.

1407
01:09:29,140 --> 01:09:33,240
And there's a lot of
research on Mercury in China.

1408
01:09:33,240 --> 01:09:35,700
But we've interviewed
them and they said, yeah,

1409
01:09:35,700 --> 01:09:37,000
basically took Germany's.

1410
01:09:37,000 --> 01:09:39,270
Seemed reasonable.

1411
01:09:39,270 --> 01:09:40,760
And also that's
going to be where

1412
01:09:40,760 --> 01:09:43,415
we're going to buy our emission
control equipment until we can

1413
01:09:43,415 --> 01:09:45,790
figure out how to make it, so
if they're going to make it

1414
01:09:45,790 --> 01:09:48,380
for German market,
we're not going

1415
01:09:48,380 --> 01:09:49,880
to set a more
stringent one and then

1416
01:09:49,880 --> 01:09:51,838
we're not going to be
able to buy the equipment

1417
01:09:51,838 --> 01:09:54,270
and meet it until
we can make it.

1418
01:09:54,270 --> 01:09:56,780
It just makes sense
with a globalized market

1419
01:09:56,780 --> 01:09:57,606
for those things.

1420
01:09:57,606 --> 01:10:00,750
AUDIENCE: You mentioned
that the Basel

1421
01:10:00,750 --> 01:10:05,733
did the same for [INAUDIBLE],
copy just like that.

1422
01:10:05,733 --> 01:10:08,720
They just didn't-- no local
analysis, no country--

1423
01:10:08,720 --> 01:10:10,889
same thing.

1424
01:10:10,889 --> 01:10:11,680
NOELLE SELIN: Yeah.

1425
01:10:11,680 --> 01:10:14,030
But that's something
that you really start

1426
01:10:14,030 --> 01:10:15,490
to see in these negotiations.

1427
01:10:15,490 --> 01:10:19,370
So it's even more
prevalent in climate.

1428
01:10:19,370 --> 01:10:20,820
But even in mercury
you see this,

1429
01:10:20,820 --> 01:10:23,070
that a lot of
developing countries

1430
01:10:23,070 --> 01:10:25,580
have one person at
this negotiation.

1431
01:10:25,580 --> 01:10:29,370
US delegation was
about 20 people.

1432
01:10:29,370 --> 01:10:32,030
so US would have
someone from the EPA,

1433
01:10:32,030 --> 01:10:34,110
and someone from the
State Department,

1434
01:10:34,110 --> 01:10:37,520
and someone from the
US Trade Rep's office,

1435
01:10:37,520 --> 01:10:43,370
and they had some
health experts,

1436
01:10:43,370 --> 01:10:46,806
they had people
that did vaccines.

1437
01:10:49,530 --> 01:10:52,690
So they had a broad range
of expertise-- the emission

1438
01:10:52,690 --> 01:10:54,515
control, the
products people, they

1439
01:10:54,515 --> 01:10:58,000
were all in different groups.

1440
01:10:58,000 --> 01:11:01,070
And even in mercury, which
is a fairly small area,

1441
01:11:01,070 --> 01:11:03,060
you could assemble that team.

1442
01:11:03,060 --> 01:11:05,850
Now, you've got people
from African countries

1443
01:11:05,850 --> 01:11:07,240
and you've got one person.

1444
01:11:07,240 --> 01:11:09,547
You've got two or three
groups going at the same time.

1445
01:11:09,547 --> 01:11:11,630
You have to deal with
emissions from power plants.

1446
01:11:11,630 --> 01:11:14,480
You have to deal with products.

1447
01:11:14,480 --> 01:11:17,120
And the way it
works in the US is--

1448
01:11:17,120 --> 01:11:19,460
I know the people who work
on mercury-- mercury's

1449
01:11:19,460 --> 01:11:22,272
almost their whole job, because
they're dealing with mercury

1450
01:11:22,272 --> 01:11:24,605
in Air Toxic Standards, they're
dealing with scientists,

1451
01:11:24,605 --> 01:11:26,850
there are scientific
assessments going on.

1452
01:11:26,850 --> 01:11:29,810
The person in a developing
country in mercury,

1453
01:11:29,810 --> 01:11:33,110
they're probably running the
whole environment division.

1454
01:11:33,110 --> 01:11:34,720
They might be
running environment

1455
01:11:34,720 --> 01:11:37,800
and labor and health.

1456
01:11:37,800 --> 01:11:40,550
Especially smaller
island states,

1457
01:11:40,550 --> 01:11:44,700
you've got a couple of
hundred thousand people

1458
01:11:44,700 --> 01:11:45,960
in your population.

1459
01:11:45,960 --> 01:11:48,860
How much can you
environment ministry?

1460
01:11:48,860 --> 01:11:50,660
So a lot of these
regional consultations

1461
01:11:50,660 --> 01:11:52,040
become very important.

1462
01:11:52,040 --> 01:11:55,330
But capacity really,
really comes into play.

1463
01:11:55,330 --> 01:11:59,340
When we were at negotiations,
this negotiation to exhaustion

1464
01:11:59,340 --> 01:12:00,510
comes in, too.

1465
01:12:00,510 --> 01:12:02,720
Because like you
would expect, no one

1466
01:12:02,720 --> 01:12:05,010
wants to compromise till
the very last minute.

1467
01:12:05,010 --> 01:12:07,700
So when we were there at the
final negotiating session,

1468
01:12:07,700 --> 01:12:10,620
the deadline was-- the
meeting was scheduled

1469
01:12:10,620 --> 01:12:13,980
through Friday, 6:00 PM.

1470
01:12:13,980 --> 01:12:17,480
We got to agreement
Saturday morning at 8:00 AM

1471
01:12:17,480 --> 01:12:19,560
after negotiating all night.

1472
01:12:19,560 --> 01:12:23,440
So if you have a couple
people on your delegation,

1473
01:12:23,440 --> 01:12:25,340
you can take naps.

1474
01:12:25,340 --> 01:12:30,160
If you don't, you're
kind of challenged.

1475
01:12:30,160 --> 01:12:31,706
AUDIENCE: Take naps.

1476
01:12:31,706 --> 01:12:32,590
NOELLE SELIN: Yeah.

1477
01:12:32,590 --> 01:12:33,630
And you miss something.

1478
01:12:33,630 --> 01:12:34,810
Yeah.

1479
01:12:34,810 --> 01:12:36,920
Exactly.

1480
01:12:36,920 --> 01:12:39,170
So again, you have to rely
on other friendly countries

1481
01:12:39,170 --> 01:12:40,750
in the region.

1482
01:12:40,750 --> 01:12:44,060
And a lot of that is done
to try to facilitate--

1483
01:12:44,060 --> 01:12:46,640
in a sense, a lot of
the African countries

1484
01:12:46,640 --> 01:12:51,430
have a lot in common in the
negotiation and sort of bond

1485
01:12:51,430 --> 01:12:54,000
together.

1486
01:12:54,000 --> 01:12:56,899
But again, countries that have
a very particular interest

1487
01:12:56,899 --> 01:12:58,190
might not get that represented.

1488
01:12:58,190 --> 01:13:00,200
And then they have to
go back and figure out

1489
01:13:00,200 --> 01:13:03,100
what it means for
their own legislation

1490
01:13:03,100 --> 01:13:06,055
in the context of all the other
things that they're doing.

1491
01:13:06,055 --> 01:13:08,320
AUDIENCE: So will
you please talk again

1492
01:13:08,320 --> 01:13:09,640
about this pace of negotiation?

1493
01:13:09,640 --> 01:13:12,640
Because I remember I saw in one
of your talks about basically

1494
01:13:12,640 --> 01:13:17,410
how exactly the dynamics
of the negotiation--

1495
01:13:17,410 --> 01:13:19,220
so this kind of explains--

1496
01:13:19,220 --> 01:13:20,900
NOELLE SELIN: So
yeah, nothing happens

1497
01:13:20,900 --> 01:13:24,300
until the very last minute,
which is interesting.

1498
01:13:24,300 --> 01:13:26,820
It's sort of like grad school.

1499
01:13:26,820 --> 01:13:31,010
But there's a lot
of spinning wheels

1500
01:13:31,010 --> 01:13:35,440
for we have to discuss things,
we have to be deliberate.

1501
01:13:35,440 --> 01:13:41,105
Again, 2002 was when there was
a global scientific assessment

1502
01:13:41,105 --> 01:13:43,380
that says we ought to
do something about it.

1503
01:13:43,380 --> 01:13:46,540
And then years and years.

1504
01:13:46,540 --> 01:13:49,570
Mandate for
negotiations was 2009.

1505
01:13:49,570 --> 01:13:52,380
So then you schedule a meeting.

1506
01:13:52,380 --> 01:13:53,950
Usually scheduled
meetings may be

1507
01:13:53,950 --> 01:13:57,310
for a negotiation like this
every six months or so,

1508
01:13:57,310 --> 01:13:59,460
five or six day meeting.

1509
01:13:59,460 --> 01:14:01,930
Everyone has to get there.

1510
01:14:01,930 --> 01:14:03,910
You've got
interpretation issues.

1511
01:14:03,910 --> 01:14:08,710
So the six UN languages
are simultaneously

1512
01:14:08,710 --> 01:14:12,900
interpreted in the main room
in main plenary discussions.

1513
01:14:12,900 --> 01:14:14,530
Most of the in the
card discussions

1514
01:14:14,530 --> 01:14:18,240
are in English because
everyone speaks English

1515
01:14:18,240 --> 01:14:20,180
except for a few.

1516
01:14:20,180 --> 01:14:22,740
And if you're one of the few
that doesn't speak English,

1517
01:14:22,740 --> 01:14:26,010
that's a problem.

1518
01:14:26,010 --> 01:14:27,850
We try to avoid
sending those people.

1519
01:14:27,850 --> 01:14:30,800
But some countries don't
have a great English speaking

1520
01:14:30,800 --> 01:14:31,370
capacity.

1521
01:14:31,370 --> 01:14:33,950
That's been mostly a
problem in my experience

1522
01:14:33,950 --> 01:14:36,444
with French-speaking
African countries,

1523
01:14:36,444 --> 01:14:39,200
have the most problem with
finding the person who speaks

1524
01:14:39,200 --> 01:14:40,780
English.

1525
01:14:40,780 --> 01:14:43,180
Lately it's been
a little better.

1526
01:14:43,180 --> 01:14:47,120
The older people often
didn't speak English.

1527
01:14:47,120 --> 01:14:49,950
Younger people are actually
sort of taken over now

1528
01:14:49,950 --> 01:14:51,640
in a lot of these countries.

1529
01:14:51,640 --> 01:14:58,980
And so the idea of the 65 year
old person that didn't quite

1530
01:14:58,980 --> 01:15:03,740
get the message that
English was-- wasn't taught

1531
01:15:03,740 --> 01:15:07,480
English in school is no longer
at the head of the delegation.

1532
01:15:07,480 --> 01:15:10,139
It's now the 40 year
old that basically

1533
01:15:10,139 --> 01:15:11,680
went to school in
an English speaking

1534
01:15:11,680 --> 01:15:14,480
country in a lot
of these countries.

1535
01:15:14,480 --> 01:15:16,778
So that's one issue.

1536
01:15:16,778 --> 01:15:18,444
Again, if your country's
language is not

1537
01:15:18,444 --> 01:15:19,660
one of the six UN
languages, you've

1538
01:15:19,660 --> 01:15:21,451
got to speak on that
language on the floor.

1539
01:15:21,451 --> 01:15:24,109
So if you're from
Brazil, you're probably

1540
01:15:24,109 --> 01:15:26,400
speaking English on the floor
because Portuguese is not

1541
01:15:26,400 --> 01:15:27,770
a UN language.

1542
01:15:27,770 --> 01:15:30,290
So again, if you're
from Japan, you're

1543
01:15:30,290 --> 01:15:33,110
probably speaking English on
the floor unless for some reason

1544
01:15:33,110 --> 01:15:34,477
you know French.

1545
01:15:34,477 --> 01:15:36,060
But you've got to
pick one of the six.

1546
01:15:36,060 --> 01:15:39,920
So English, French, Spanish,
Arabic, Chinese, and Russian.

1547
01:15:39,920 --> 01:15:41,800
So that's another
thing that makes

1548
01:15:41,800 --> 01:15:43,480
things go fairly
slowly, when you have

1549
01:15:43,480 --> 01:15:46,100
simultaneous interpretation.

1550
01:15:46,100 --> 01:15:50,510
And it means that it can kind
of be a glacial pace for awhile

1551
01:15:50,510 --> 01:15:53,880
while people say, hello,
I'm going to thank

1552
01:15:53,880 --> 01:15:55,330
the chair for negotiations.

1553
01:15:55,330 --> 01:15:56,960
And I want to
respectfully say that I

1554
01:15:56,960 --> 01:16:00,530
disagree with paragraph two.

1555
01:16:00,530 --> 01:16:02,680
But in a 10 minute speech.

1556
01:16:02,680 --> 01:16:04,810
And then the next
person says I also

1557
01:16:04,810 --> 01:16:06,030
disagree with paragraph two.

1558
01:16:06,030 --> 01:16:09,300
And you have to go through
everybody in the countries

1559
01:16:09,300 --> 01:16:11,780
before they actually
say, you all

1560
01:16:11,780 --> 01:16:15,290
go talk about paragraph
two in the room over there.

1561
01:16:15,290 --> 01:16:18,130
Once that happens and
you get to a deadline,

1562
01:16:18,130 --> 01:16:20,950
you can agree on paragraph
two relatively rapidly.

1563
01:16:20,950 --> 01:16:26,930
But you need that whole process
of getting to agreement there.

1564
01:16:26,930 --> 01:16:29,300
So again, writing the
text-- the secretariat

1565
01:16:29,300 --> 01:16:32,460
supports a lot of that.

1566
01:16:32,460 --> 01:16:34,410
But again, you're
drafting in a big group

1567
01:16:34,410 --> 01:16:37,910
of people with 160
countries going word

1568
01:16:37,910 --> 01:16:42,260
by word through a document
that has legal force.

1569
01:16:42,260 --> 01:16:44,301
It's a tough thing.

1570
01:16:44,301 --> 01:16:46,800
And that's why the science, I
think, doesn't really come in.

1571
01:16:46,800 --> 01:16:51,370
Because the complexity of
the negotiations, it's part

1572
01:16:51,370 --> 01:16:54,720
of the reason why I think
the chemicals program has set

1573
01:16:54,720 --> 01:16:57,287
up this process pretty
well, is that they say,

1574
01:16:57,287 --> 01:16:59,120
we're going to do the
scientific assessment.

1575
01:16:59,120 --> 01:17:00,451
We're all going to agree.

1576
01:17:00,451 --> 01:17:01,450
We're going to stamp it.

1577
01:17:01,450 --> 01:17:03,117
We're going to move on.

1578
01:17:03,117 --> 01:17:04,700
If you have a question
on the science,

1579
01:17:04,700 --> 01:17:06,491
we'll kick it back to
the scientific group,

1580
01:17:06,491 --> 01:17:09,160
we'll do an assessment,
we'll agree, we'll move on.

1581
01:17:09,160 --> 01:17:11,700
So it's kind of like the
science sets the basis

1582
01:17:11,700 --> 01:17:13,720
and then we're
going to negotiate,

1583
01:17:13,720 --> 01:17:17,740
which means it's not
always the optimal outcome.

1584
01:17:17,740 --> 01:17:21,210
But it gets done.

1585
01:17:21,210 --> 01:17:22,230
Something gets done.

1586
01:17:22,230 --> 01:17:24,950
Now I did some analysis
actually of what

1587
01:17:24,950 --> 01:17:26,700
would happen in mercury
in the environment

1588
01:17:26,700 --> 01:17:30,920
as a result of this treaty
with the best guesses of what

1589
01:17:30,920 --> 01:17:32,290
it would involve.

1590
01:17:32,290 --> 01:17:37,480
And pretty much the conclusion
was avoided increases.

1591
01:17:37,480 --> 01:17:40,790
So without the treaty,
our business as usual

1592
01:17:40,790 --> 01:17:43,090
would be mercury increasing
in the environment.

1593
01:17:43,090 --> 01:17:45,699
With the treaty,
probably pretty steady.

1594
01:17:45,699 --> 01:17:48,240
So again, if you want mercury
to decrease in the environment,

1595
01:17:48,240 --> 01:17:51,750
you've got to then go through
and look at your technology

1596
01:17:51,750 --> 01:17:53,730
regulations for
emissions and probably

1597
01:17:53,730 --> 01:17:59,110
ratchet those down through
the treaty process itself.

1598
01:17:59,110 --> 01:18:02,690
Otherwise, you're not
going to actually improve.

1599
01:18:02,690 --> 01:18:05,020
It's also more legally
and politically

1600
01:18:05,020 --> 01:18:07,600
important at this point then
environmentally important

1601
01:18:07,600 --> 01:18:10,660
because it sends a pretty
clear message that mercury

1602
01:18:10,660 --> 01:18:13,290
is a pretty bad thing
internationally,

1603
01:18:13,290 --> 01:18:17,940
and that has a really
big signaling mechanism.

1604
01:18:17,940 --> 01:18:22,460
If you're a company and you're
thinking about using mercury

1605
01:18:22,460 --> 01:18:25,590
in a process-- which might be
the easiest way to do things,

1606
01:18:25,590 --> 01:18:29,470
because mercury has some really
neat chemical properties--

1607
01:18:29,470 --> 01:18:32,980
this kind of thing will make
you think twice about it.

1608
01:18:32,980 --> 01:18:39,230
So that idea that there's sort
of a consensus around mercury

1609
01:18:39,230 --> 01:18:42,300
is bad, and they're increasing
amounts of regulation,

1610
01:18:42,300 --> 01:18:47,790
and countries are beginning to
figure out that mercury is now

1611
01:18:47,790 --> 01:18:54,230
going to regulate more has
a strong political force,

1612
01:18:54,230 --> 01:18:56,280
whereas the technical
regulations might not

1613
01:18:56,280 --> 01:18:58,642
be the operative part.

1614
01:18:58,642 --> 01:19:00,475
So again, legally and
politically important.

1615
01:19:00,475 --> 01:19:02,810
Not so much
environmentally yet-- but

1616
01:19:02,810 --> 01:19:05,640
might be in the future
as amendments come in,

1617
01:19:05,640 --> 01:19:08,030
as the technical
requirements-- there's

1618
01:19:08,030 --> 01:19:11,200
a lot to be decided on
exactly what technologies

1619
01:19:11,200 --> 01:19:13,555
might be considered in terms
of emissions regulations.

1620
01:19:13,555 --> 01:19:16,520
And that's an open
question right now.

1621
01:19:16,520 --> 01:19:19,760
And it's going to be decided
by the technical groups

1622
01:19:19,760 --> 01:19:24,420
and by conference of
parties negotiations.

1623
01:19:24,420 --> 01:19:25,326
Yes?

1624
01:19:25,326 --> 01:19:27,664
AUDIENCE: So after ten
years of working on this,

1625
01:19:27,664 --> 01:19:30,020
do you eat fish?

1626
01:19:30,020 --> 01:19:32,650
NOELLE SELIN: I do eat fish.

1627
01:19:32,650 --> 01:19:35,460
There are fish that are
relatively low in mercury.

1628
01:19:35,460 --> 01:19:41,150
So the key in dietary
advice on mercury

1629
01:19:41,150 --> 01:19:44,420
is you don't want
people not eating fish.

1630
01:19:44,420 --> 01:19:48,650
Fish high in omega 3s, but low
in mercury-- unfortunately,

1631
01:19:48,650 --> 01:19:50,230
that's the herrings
of the world.

1632
01:19:50,230 --> 01:19:51,960
And I don't want herring.

1633
01:19:51,960 --> 01:19:55,017
But again, I also
figure there's lots

1634
01:19:55,017 --> 01:19:57,600
of things that are going to kill
me faster, like French fries.

1635
01:19:57,600 --> 01:20:02,980
So you've got to take
them one at a time.

1636
01:20:02,980 --> 01:20:06,964
PROFESSOR: Any more questions?

1637
01:20:06,964 --> 01:20:08,458
Thank you very much.

1638
01:20:08,458 --> 01:20:11,944
[APPLAUSE]

1639
01:20:11,944 --> 01:20:13,370
All right.

1640
01:20:13,370 --> 01:20:18,870
So we're not going to go
through today your deliverables.

1641
01:20:18,870 --> 01:20:21,870
Tony may have mentioned,
or Alexis last time,

1642
01:20:21,870 --> 01:20:23,367
that we divided your groups.

1643
01:20:23,367 --> 01:20:24,116
Did they tell you?

1644
01:20:24,116 --> 01:20:24,795
Yeah?

1645
01:20:24,795 --> 01:20:26,920
So we're going to be meeting
with you independently

1646
01:20:26,920 --> 01:20:29,510
over the next few
days to go over

1647
01:20:29,510 --> 01:20:31,350
where your project
is in preparation

1648
01:20:31,350 --> 01:20:32,940
for the final report.

1649
01:20:32,940 --> 01:20:36,450
And then next week we're going
to be talking about strategy.

1650
01:20:36,450 --> 01:20:39,240
So we're going to try to get
everything we have covered

1651
01:20:39,240 --> 01:20:44,550
and try to frame it in a
more concrete discussion.

1652
01:20:44,550 --> 01:20:48,450
So what are we going to do
with everything we've learned.

1653
01:20:48,450 --> 01:20:50,390
You're going to
eventually want to make--

1654
01:20:50,390 --> 01:20:52,280
drive a change in a company.

1655
01:20:52,280 --> 01:20:54,710
How should I start with
all these inventions,

1656
01:20:54,710 --> 01:20:58,410
the technical side, now the
political side, the NGO side,

1657
01:20:58,410 --> 01:21:01,660
the complexity of the networking
you have to deal with.

1658
01:21:01,660 --> 01:21:03,160
And we're going to
have a discussion

1659
01:21:03,160 --> 01:21:04,405
around that next time.

1660
01:21:04,405 --> 01:21:05,780
And we're going
to probably bring

1661
01:21:05,780 --> 01:21:07,530
some of the things you
have already worked

1662
01:21:07,530 --> 01:21:09,340
on your specific case studies.

1663
01:21:09,340 --> 01:21:13,780
And Wednesday we're going
to have the head of EMC

1664
01:21:13,780 --> 01:21:17,474
to decide to actually
tell us how they did it.

1665
01:21:17,474 --> 01:21:18,390
It's very interesting.

1666
01:21:18,390 --> 01:21:21,270
Today I was meeting this
morning with-- the last few days

1667
01:21:21,270 --> 01:21:25,530
I have met with P&G, Intel,
and Nike sustainability heads,

1668
01:21:25,530 --> 01:21:28,280
and how they have been
thinking through this process.

1669
01:21:28,280 --> 01:21:31,980
So it strikes me they're
as confused as probably you

1670
01:21:31,980 --> 01:21:33,610
are at the point.

1671
01:21:33,610 --> 01:21:34,860
Exactly what do I do about it?

1672
01:21:34,860 --> 01:21:36,985
At the end, you have to
make some specific actions.

1673
01:21:36,985 --> 01:21:40,570
So we're going to at least bring
some of the ideas to the table

1674
01:21:40,570 --> 01:21:42,705
over the next two sessions.

1675
01:21:42,705 --> 01:21:47,340
With that, I that I
will see you on Monday.

1676
01:21:47,340 --> 01:21:48,890
Thank you.