1 00:00:06,070 --> 00:00:08,600 JOSE: A lot of the assumptions, like the emergence of Creole, 2 00:00:08,608 --> 00:00:11,177 have been in the last 200, 300-- 3 00:00:11,177 --> 00:00:12,112 I don't know how long. 4 00:00:17,480 --> 00:00:20,180 MICHEL DEGRAFF: 17th century, roughly, in Haiti. 5 00:00:20,186 --> 00:00:22,422 JOSE: Is there any other language 6 00:00:22,422 --> 00:00:29,396 that are not Creoles that we know developed in the last 500 7 00:00:29,396 --> 00:00:30,163 years? 8 00:00:30,163 --> 00:00:32,298 MICHEL DEGRAFF: Well, if what I'm saying is right-- 9 00:00:37,330 --> 00:00:39,130 English itself-- modern English-- 10 00:00:39,139 --> 00:00:41,174 has developed not that long ago. 11 00:00:41,174 --> 00:00:45,945 Because middle English was up to 14th, 15th, 16th century. 12 00:00:45,945 --> 00:00:49,616 English was developing in the 16th century, 17th century-- 13 00:00:49,616 --> 00:00:51,351 English the way we know it. 14 00:00:51,351 --> 00:00:55,955 So that variety of English is relatively much younger 15 00:00:55,955 --> 00:00:59,492 than what Chaucer spoke. 16 00:00:59,492 --> 00:01:04,096 So there is a notion of that fact 17 00:01:04,096 --> 00:01:07,233 that we call English, English, can be an illusion. 18 00:01:07,233 --> 00:01:09,936 Because there has been many English 19 00:01:09,936 --> 00:01:11,538 throughout the centuries. 20 00:01:11,538 --> 00:01:15,475 If you focus on English as a broader umbrella, then, 21 00:01:15,475 --> 00:01:16,342 of course, it's old. 22 00:01:16,342 --> 00:01:19,279 But if you focus on English as we speak it now, 23 00:01:19,279 --> 00:01:21,881 it's relatively recent. 24 00:01:21,881 --> 00:01:26,152 So even back might not make the right cut between, say-- 25 00:01:26,152 --> 00:01:28,788 and, actually, sign languages-- did you mention sign languages? 26 00:01:28,788 --> 00:01:29,756 JOSE: Yes. 27 00:01:29,756 --> 00:01:36,062 Because in some sense, maybe part of the bayous 28 00:01:36,062 --> 00:01:44,938 could be that even the first Haitian-- 29 00:01:44,938 --> 00:01:46,940 at some point, we are saying that Haitian Creole 30 00:01:46,940 --> 00:01:48,708 is a separate language from French. 31 00:01:48,708 --> 00:01:50,410 so at some point, there was a-- 32 00:01:50,410 --> 00:01:51,811 MICHEL DEGRAFF: There was a break. 33 00:01:51,811 --> 00:01:54,146 JOSE: Yeah, like the first instance 34 00:01:54,146 --> 00:01:56,049 that we consider this a different language 35 00:01:56,049 --> 00:01:57,517 happened fairly recently. 36 00:01:57,517 --> 00:01:59,185 MICHEL DEGRAFF: That's right. 37 00:01:59,185 --> 00:02:03,189 JOSE: So I was wondering if could that give more evidence 38 00:02:03,189 --> 00:02:06,559 that this bias could be racial? 39 00:02:06,559 --> 00:02:08,061 Is there any other language that we 40 00:02:08,061 --> 00:02:09,996 know has emerged fairly recently and we 41 00:02:09,996 --> 00:02:12,365 see how they treat that differently compared to Creole? 42 00:02:12,365 --> 00:02:14,300 MICHEL DEGRAFF: You mentioned Spanglish, right? 43 00:02:14,300 --> 00:02:16,870 One could say that Spanglish might be even younger, right? 44 00:02:16,870 --> 00:02:24,043 SPEAKER 1: It's a lot younger, maybe 30, 40 years. 45 00:02:27,040 --> 00:02:29,079 But the thing is, it's not considered a language. 46 00:02:29,082 --> 00:02:31,017 MICHEL DEGRAFF: Well, actually, it's changing. 47 00:02:31,017 --> 00:02:34,988 I heard recently that, at some universities 48 00:02:34,988 --> 00:02:36,156 on the west coast-- 49 00:02:36,156 --> 00:02:38,057 I was told that by Professor Spadofa. 50 00:02:40,690 --> 00:02:44,590 Me and Noam Chomsky were at an interview with Noam. 51 00:02:44,597 --> 00:02:47,100 And she gave us the news that these universities 52 00:02:47,100 --> 00:02:49,636 were going to start teaching Spanglish as a language. 53 00:02:49,636 --> 00:02:51,137 SPEAKER 1: You know which one? 54 00:02:51,137 --> 00:02:53,473 MICHEL DEGRAFF: I have to listen to the interview again. 55 00:02:53,473 --> 00:02:54,240 She did tell us. 56 00:02:54,240 --> 00:02:57,010 But I don't remember which one, but it's a first. 57 00:02:57,010 --> 00:02:59,612 It's the first in the history of Spanglish. 58 00:02:59,612 --> 00:03:02,482 Finally, there is on university that's 59 00:03:02,482 --> 00:03:06,920 agreed to teach Spanglish as a language. 60 00:03:06,920 --> 00:03:08,688 I think that's remarkable, right? 61 00:03:08,688 --> 00:03:09,956 SPEAKER 1: Yeah, it's awesome. 62 00:03:09,956 --> 00:03:13,626 But it's not what Jose is talking about, 63 00:03:13,626 --> 00:03:16,329 just because English and Spanish were 64 00:03:16,329 --> 00:03:18,498 somewhat prestigious languages in and of themselves, 65 00:03:18,498 --> 00:03:22,235 and the whole point of Creole is that it's not prestigious. 66 00:03:25,770 --> 00:03:26,800 JOSE: So I have to think. 67 00:03:26,806 --> 00:03:31,978 Because at the same time, I know there's 68 00:03:31,978 --> 00:03:34,079 a lot of people in Haiti who them themselves don't 69 00:03:34,079 --> 00:03:35,815 think Creole is a language. 70 00:03:35,815 --> 00:03:38,317 So maybe I'm being like, well, Spanglish is not a language. 71 00:03:41,579 --> 00:03:49,560 In some sense, it's because you know two languages. 72 00:03:49,562 --> 00:03:52,599 And you purposely mix them because it's convenient. 73 00:03:52,599 --> 00:03:56,069 But I feel like nobody would say that is a-- 74 00:03:56,069 --> 00:03:57,670 MICHEL DEGRAFF: But actually, languages 75 00:03:57,670 --> 00:03:58,771 have emerged like that. 76 00:03:58,771 --> 00:04:01,975 In Canada, there is a language called Michif. 77 00:04:01,975 --> 00:04:08,581 Michif is also a mix of French and some Algonquin language. 78 00:04:08,581 --> 00:04:12,986 There is one in the Indies called Media Lengua. 79 00:04:12,986 --> 00:04:16,656 In fact, even the name tells you that it's 80 00:04:16,656 --> 00:04:18,156 a mix of this [INAUDIBLE]. 81 00:04:18,156 --> 00:04:19,459 It's called Media Lengua. 82 00:04:19,459 --> 00:04:20,860 What is Media Lengua? 83 00:04:20,860 --> 00:04:24,130 It's a mix between Spanish and Kichwa. 84 00:04:24,130 --> 00:04:26,132 You see? 85 00:04:26,132 --> 00:04:30,903 And Media Lengua is the language of the community. 86 00:04:30,903 --> 00:04:32,872 and actually, that case is very interesting. 87 00:04:32,872 --> 00:04:35,742 Because Media Lengua was created really mid-way. 88 00:04:35,742 --> 00:04:40,413 Because in the valley, you had the rich colonizers, 89 00:04:40,413 --> 00:04:41,714 the Spanish people. 90 00:04:41,714 --> 00:04:45,518 And in the top of the mountains, you had the Kichwa speakers. 91 00:04:45,518 --> 00:04:48,354 And then, in between, you had these people 92 00:04:48,354 --> 00:04:50,490 who were, in terms of the social class, 93 00:04:50,490 --> 00:04:54,761 in the midpoint between the rich Spaniards 94 00:04:54,761 --> 00:04:56,596 and the oppressed Kichwa speakers. 95 00:04:59,159 --> 00:05:01,730 And they developed Media Lengua as a way 96 00:05:01,734 --> 00:05:04,037 to show that they were different, 97 00:05:04,037 --> 00:05:06,706 that they were not exactly like the Kichwa speakers, 98 00:05:06,706 --> 00:05:10,376 but they were not at the level yet of the Spanish speakers. 99 00:05:10,376 --> 00:05:13,313 And they used that mixing. 100 00:05:13,313 --> 00:05:15,915 So at first, one could imagine that people would say, well, 101 00:05:15,915 --> 00:05:16,916 it's another language. 102 00:05:16,916 --> 00:05:21,921 It's just this random mix of Kichwa words and Spanish words. 103 00:05:21,921 --> 00:05:24,657 But now, Media Lengua is a language 104 00:05:24,657 --> 00:05:28,995 spoken by a community of people who, at first, were bilingual. 105 00:05:28,995 --> 00:05:34,367 But now their main language is Media Lengua. 106 00:05:34,367 --> 00:05:36,636 JOSE: When you combine languages, that's how it feels. 107 00:05:43,640 --> 00:05:45,340 I really only combine English and Spanish 108 00:05:45,345 --> 00:05:48,848 when I know the other person feels most comfortable speaking 109 00:05:48,848 --> 00:05:51,617 that. 110 00:05:51,617 --> 00:05:53,386 MICHEL DEGRAFF: I think, Ose, you'll 111 00:05:53,386 --> 00:05:56,022 be interested to read about the history of Media Lengua. 112 00:05:56,022 --> 00:05:57,590 Because I think what you're describing 113 00:05:57,590 --> 00:05:59,792 in terms of that feeling that's you know both, 114 00:05:59,792 --> 00:06:02,061 and that you're speaking to someone who can understand 115 00:06:02,061 --> 00:06:03,796 both, that's what's been described 116 00:06:03,796 --> 00:06:05,998 by people who've looked at-- 117 00:06:05,998 --> 00:06:08,067 So the key linguist here that you should look at, 118 00:06:08,067 --> 00:06:14,407 his name is Pieter Muysken. 119 00:06:18,070 --> 00:06:20,940 So look up Pieter Muysken. 120 00:06:20,947 --> 00:06:25,385 OK, so it was a beautiful work describing the origins, 121 00:06:25,385 --> 00:06:29,322 the structure of Media Lengua. 122 00:06:29,322 --> 00:06:32,125 And then what you have to do as you read that is ask yourself, 123 00:06:32,125 --> 00:06:36,162 is he describing what I feel now when I speak Spanglish? 124 00:06:36,162 --> 00:06:37,964 I don't know what the answer is. 125 00:06:37,964 --> 00:06:41,968 But that's what comes to my mind as you describe Spanglish. 126 00:06:41,968 --> 00:06:45,304 I think of Media Langua. 127 00:06:45,304 --> 00:06:47,106 JOSE: Most Mexicans don't identify too much 128 00:06:47,106 --> 00:06:50,476 with the use of Spanglish. 129 00:06:50,476 --> 00:06:53,112 MICHEL DEGRAFF: Well, that's exactly 130 00:06:53,112 --> 00:06:54,147 the way this was created. 131 00:06:54,147 --> 00:06:55,548 Because Media Langua, the speakers 132 00:06:55,548 --> 00:07:00,453 wanted to create a new identity for them. 133 00:07:00,453 --> 00:07:02,688 They didn't want to see themselves as if they 134 00:07:02,688 --> 00:07:07,527 were purely Kichwa speakers, nor were they Europeans. 135 00:07:07,527 --> 00:07:11,864 So they wanted to create this compromise between the two 136 00:07:11,864 --> 00:07:12,899 identities. 137 00:07:12,899 --> 00:07:20,173 And they use that mix of Kichwa and Spanish 138 00:07:20,173 --> 00:07:23,209 to create a new badge of identity. 139 00:07:23,209 --> 00:07:25,745 Now I don't know whether that's the same thing for Spanglish. 140 00:07:25,745 --> 00:07:29,048 But from what you describe, it sounds interestingly 141 00:07:29,048 --> 00:07:30,683 reminiscent to that story. 142 00:07:30,683 --> 00:07:32,452 STUDENT 2: You may have just touched on it, 143 00:07:32,452 --> 00:07:35,922 but I was going to ask if-- 144 00:07:35,922 --> 00:07:39,692 he was talking about how Mexican's don't 145 00:07:39,692 --> 00:07:43,229 identify with Spanglish, and they don't speak it. 146 00:07:43,229 --> 00:07:49,068 But is that how these speakers of French and Algonquin-- 147 00:07:49,068 --> 00:07:50,303 MICHEL DEGRAFF: Yeah, Michif. 148 00:07:50,303 --> 00:07:51,204 STUDENT 2: --is that how they felt when 149 00:07:51,204 --> 00:07:52,438 they developed that language? 150 00:07:52,438 --> 00:07:55,575 Because that could be part of the evolutionary process. 151 00:07:55,575 --> 00:07:58,678 He could be describing that it's [INAUDIBLE] own way of starting 152 00:07:58,678 --> 00:08:00,580 its own language. 153 00:08:00,580 --> 00:08:03,382 Eventually, the umbilical cord gets cut. 154 00:08:03,382 --> 00:08:05,384 MICHEL DEGRAFF: So I think the history of Michif 155 00:08:05,384 --> 00:08:08,421 has another twist, which is that there was a gender issue. 156 00:08:08,421 --> 00:08:13,226 I think there was an issue of there were Algonquin women 157 00:08:13,226 --> 00:08:16,929 meeting with French speakers. 158 00:08:16,929 --> 00:08:19,365 So there's another aspect that's not 159 00:08:19,365 --> 00:08:23,636 part of neither Spanglish nor Media Lengua, which 160 00:08:23,636 --> 00:08:30,042 is the gender part of it and with who spoke Algonquin, 161 00:08:30,042 --> 00:08:32,078 and who spoke French. 162 00:08:32,078 --> 00:08:35,014 And it was mostly women who spoke Algonquin. 163 00:08:37,909 --> 00:08:39,650 go ahead. 164 00:08:39,652 --> 00:08:42,488 STUDENT 3: I feel like there's certain dialects of Spanish 165 00:08:42,488 --> 00:08:45,591 that, in some ways, use Spanglish legitimately, 166 00:08:45,591 --> 00:08:46,993 like maybe that's how it would be. 167 00:08:46,993 --> 00:08:49,495 Like, "par-kare," which is not how you actually say to park 168 00:08:49,495 --> 00:08:50,296 the car. 169 00:08:50,296 --> 00:08:53,099 But that would be considered Spanglish, wouldn't it? 170 00:08:53,099 --> 00:08:55,935 [INTERPOSING VOICES] 171 00:08:57,630 --> 00:09:00,670 JOSE: For example, I'm from the border. 172 00:09:00,673 --> 00:09:03,142 I'm from [INAUDIBLE]. 173 00:09:03,142 --> 00:09:06,445 And we definitely use a lot of words that have 174 00:09:06,445 --> 00:09:10,550 English origin, like "troka." 175 00:09:10,550 --> 00:09:13,519 We use "troka" instead of [INAUDIBLE].. 176 00:09:13,519 --> 00:09:17,123 I didn't know that was the origin until I was 17, 18. 177 00:09:17,123 --> 00:09:18,724 MICHEL DEGRAFF: So you were using troka 178 00:09:18,724 --> 00:09:20,192 without knowing that was was with-- 179 00:09:20,192 --> 00:09:20,960 JOSE: Yeah, yeah. 180 00:09:20,960 --> 00:09:22,461 Because it doesn't feel like an English-- you're just-- 181 00:09:22,461 --> 00:09:23,029 MICHEL DEGRAFF: Troka. 182 00:09:23,029 --> 00:09:23,529 JOSE: Yeah. 183 00:09:23,529 --> 00:09:24,196 And do, OK. 184 00:09:24,196 --> 00:09:25,831 Of course it looks like a Spanish word. 185 00:09:28,360 --> 00:09:30,100 It just feels like you're borrowing 186 00:09:30,102 --> 00:09:36,375 words more than something independent. 187 00:09:36,375 --> 00:09:38,344 I only really combine English and Spanish 188 00:09:38,344 --> 00:09:41,447 when I'm speaking with somebody who the bass line is English. 189 00:09:41,447 --> 00:09:45,151 But I have to alternate. 190 00:09:45,151 --> 00:09:45,718 I don't know. 191 00:09:45,718 --> 00:09:46,085 It doesn't feel like-- 192 00:09:46,085 --> 00:09:46,652 I don't know. 193 00:09:46,652 --> 00:09:47,053 MICHEL DEGRAFF: OK. 194 00:09:47,053 --> 00:09:49,055 So that could be an interesting research project 195 00:09:49,055 --> 00:09:51,824 because in this case, you would be your own subject. 196 00:09:51,824 --> 00:09:55,528 So I think that's a fascinating question that you could ask.