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AUDIENCE: I wanted to give
an answer to 2.

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MICHEL DEGRAFF: OK, yeah.

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AUDIENCE: So to both parts--
like, one of the parts

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was, like, how do the discourse
of power affect the role.

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Like, I don't know, how
do discourse of powers

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affect how I choose
to, I guess, identify

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or how I choose to make
decisions related to language.

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For example, I'm from
Mexico and I speak Spanish,

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but at the same time, part
of wanting to be more Mexican

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is acknowledging that we
have native languages.

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Like, Spanish is a language
that was imposed on Mexico--

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people who were from
the land of Mexico.

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And it sounds like, because
I want to, I don't know,

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get to know that
part of Mexico,

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that motivates me
to try to learn

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some of the native
languages like [INAUDIBLE]..

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Or just because I feel
it's like I could be more--

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RACHEL: More Mexican?

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AUDIENCE: Yeah, more Mexican.

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MICHEL DEGRAFF: OK.

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AUDIENCE: Yeah, I'd even
add that in these discourses

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of power, how they affect
how we see our roles

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and my choice of identity,
I think that really explains

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why a lot of
African-Americans see

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African-American vernacular
English as something bad.

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It's something that we keep
private a couple times.

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I have been caught and
chastised for letting

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it slip out in public.

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Like, you know, going out to
eat with family members to get--

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and so, you know, oh, don't
talk like that in public.

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And I think this question
speaks to the heart of that.

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AUDIENCE: And for the
first part, I wanted to--

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like, we were talking about
authenticity and language,

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but something I
want to comment--

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it's something like
I feel like speaking

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a language is an
experience, but just

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by the fact that it
has different stories,

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and different sayings,
and all this stuff.

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So in some sense, not
speaking a language, you're--

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for example, I'm sure
there's a lot of sayings

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in Creole or in Chinese
that I will never

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be aware of, because I
don't speak the language.

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And it's almost like I'm
not experiencing them.

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That doesn't mean
I'm less authentic,

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but it just really
means that like if you--

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like, I cannot
identify as Chinese,

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because I haven't had
those experiences.

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It's not to say that that should
change how people identify,

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but like, what I [INAUDIBLE]
say is like there is--

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we cannot ignore the role
that language does have

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and experience do have
in, I don't know--

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for example, somebody who is
Mexican American, even then I

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don't think being
American, it's almost like

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deprives you from Mexicano.

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Even some of the most
famous Mexican people

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like artists, like,
artists like Selena.

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Selena, like she's not
from-- she was from Texas,

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but everybody, my grandma,
everybody loves her.

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And I think it's
part of just like

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how much of the quote, unquote
like "collective experience"

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you had.

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That being said,
you were mentioning

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how language in some
sense is a barrier.

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I think parts of being
barrier means that you can--

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it's overcome-able.

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Like, if I wanted
to experience more--

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I don't know.

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If I wanted to--

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let's say I want to work
in Haiti in the future,

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and I want to not
feel like an outsider.

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Then part of it is like me--

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in that sense, it's hard that
I didn't experience that,

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and I have to learn a language.

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But it's part of--

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just because it's hard to be
two people at the same time--

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at the same time, I
think it's possible to--

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if I don't know--

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the fact that it's a
barrier means that I think

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it's possible to-- you know?

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I don't know.

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MICHEL DEGRAFF: In fact,
you go back to the areas

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that you mentioned, the
fact that they were--

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the documentary makers
from New York were--

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they were Haitians who
grew up in New York,

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and they were
concerned with losing--

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they didn't speak
Creole, so therefor they

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weren't Haitians enough.

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But now, in fact, they
reached back to me last week.

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Anyway, continue the
interview, because I'm

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going to ask another
question, which

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is that if you're Haitians who
grew up in the diaspora, OK,

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you learned Haitian
Creole, you see?

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So what would I suggest, and
what do I see as the advantage

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of Haitian diaspora to actually
try to keep the language--

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actually, if they haven't--

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they didn't grow up speaking
it, how can they learn it now

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even if they are adults?

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And so, [INAUDIBLE], your point
is that you can always learn.

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AUDIENCE: Yeah, and it doesn't
make the experience less

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in the first place, but
it's just like if you

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want to enhance it--

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not enhance it, but
it's like if you want

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to listen to other people--

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if you want to--

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there are some other things
that you might experience,

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but like it's not the end.

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RACHEL: I just
wanted to add sort of

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on the basis of language
being an experience.

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So the other day, so my
boyfriend is Haitian,

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and I'm learning Creole.

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This is for the
people who haven't

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taken this class the entire
semester, and we were--

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so there was a time period--
and you can correct me

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if I'm wrong-- where
Haitians stopped--

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the Kompa stopped being a
thing for a little bit, which

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is like Haitian music, and now
it's becoming more of a thing.

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And so, there's a lot of
like young music groups,

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and the main way I've been--

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MICHEL DEGRAFF: So I could use
some feedback about Kompa--

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RACHEL: I love Kompa.

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MICHEL DEGRAFF: --with
the [INAUDIBLE] Kompa.

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RACHEL: I don't know if I
have an American reference.

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If you know what
Machata is, it's

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like Machata but not really.

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It's--

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MICHEL DEGRAFF: It's better.

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RACHEL: --a partner dance.

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I can't agree with that.

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I'm very much invested in both.

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But there's a lot of
young music groups

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that are producing
new Kompa music,

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and the way I've been sort of
learning with the absence of,

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like, time to sit down
and go through a book

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is just by listening
to the songs and, like,

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learning the lyrics.

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And we went through a song,
and it took us an hour

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because there were so many
cultural references that there

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was no way without
being Haitian or having

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Haitian parents-- like,
there was no way you

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would have known what it was.

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I can't think of one
off the top of my head,

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but in this whole experience
of, like, being here

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and learning about
Haitian experience.

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Like, there is a restaurant
in Miami called Tap Tap.

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I didn't know that
Tap Tap was a bus.

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That was an
interesting experience.

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It's a bus, an open-back
bus you run and jump onto it

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in the middle of traffic.

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MICHEL DEGRAFF: So our
colleague was now [INAUDIBLE]..

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He said something that
is very beautiful--

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that when the language
dies out, it's

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like a library
that's burned down,

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because a language
is a whole library.

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And as you mentioned, it's
a whole set of experiences

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that you can only really enter
through the language, and so

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the examples of our thinking.

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But we can enter it.

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You know, we might not master
all the books in the library.

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In fact, who can ever read--
if it's a big library,

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you cannot read all the books.

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In fact, I, myself, I
learn proverbs every day

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in Haitian Creole.

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It doesn't end.

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And sometimes, I
learn about proverbs

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through other
cultures, because there

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are many proverbs in Haitian
Creole that I've found also

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in Africa--

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in West Africa, even
in South Africa--

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and sometimes the meanings
are slightly different,

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and sometimes you'll learn
more about your Haitian proverb

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by learning it
through an African.

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And then we could say,
oh, that sounds familiar.

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And then you understand
better, what the proverb means,

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through the African
substrate or ancestry.

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I think we should stop
here for the discussion.

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Are you guys happy?

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Do you have anything else
that you want to add?

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Are the two of you--

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RACHEL: Jonathan.

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AUDIENCE: So you just
mentioned that when

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a language that's
out of a library

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motel and language
as an experience.

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I'd even argue that I would have
applied that same definition

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to identity as well.

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That's why I was really
glad that I didn't answer

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the first question first
[INAUDIBLE] taking a hit,

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00:08:33,212 --> 00:08:35,280
because-- you know, I was
sitting here reading it,

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00:08:35,280 --> 00:08:38,150
and I was choked by it, because
[INAUDIBLE] the short answer

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00:08:38,150 --> 00:08:40,219
to that question.

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Because the notion
of authenticity

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00:08:41,988 --> 00:08:45,625
is really kind of vanity,
and I agree with what Sophie

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00:08:45,625 --> 00:08:51,931
was saying earlier that we--

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there's a tendency to hide
ourselves under these labels,

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and we kind of
neglect our own power,

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00:09:04,443 --> 00:09:07,914
and we in a formation
maintenance,

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00:09:07,914 --> 00:09:13,853
I guess, of identity--
and kind of like what

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00:09:13,853 --> 00:09:19,358
she was saying about wanting
to sort of take and grab hold

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00:09:19,358 --> 00:09:22,962
onto a mutual power to
forge your own identity,

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00:09:22,962 --> 00:09:26,766
and I think that's really
everybody's responsibility?

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00:09:26,766 --> 00:09:28,568
MICHEL DEGRAFF: Right.

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00:09:28,568 --> 00:09:29,569
And that reminds me.

202
00:09:29,569 --> 00:09:33,039
Maybe I should bring back
this issue of stereotypes.

203
00:09:33,039 --> 00:09:34,840
And it's a whole new
literature these days

204
00:09:34,840 --> 00:09:38,878
on fixed mindset
versus growth mindset.

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00:09:38,878 --> 00:09:40,680
So in a way and given
what you just said,

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00:09:40,680 --> 00:09:45,551
one can think of this notion
of having identity that's fixed

207
00:09:45,551 --> 00:09:48,287
is pretty much like this notion
of having a fixed mindset,

208
00:09:48,287 --> 00:09:49,789
because if you believe in--

209
00:09:49,789 --> 00:09:50,923
and in fact, there
is a lot of research

210
00:09:50,923 --> 00:09:53,392
that show that-- that if you
have a growth mindset meaning

211
00:09:53,392 --> 00:09:57,597
that you could actually learn
new things-- that you're not

212
00:09:57,597 --> 00:09:59,131
bounded by your experience.

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00:09:59,131 --> 00:10:01,634
You can always go beyond that,
and that requires, of course,

214
00:10:01,634 --> 00:10:02,468
practice.

215
00:10:02,468 --> 00:10:03,869
Because this is
something that's--

216
00:10:03,869 --> 00:10:05,004
intelligence is not innate.

217
00:10:05,004 --> 00:10:06,839
You can always develop
more intelligence.

218
00:10:06,839 --> 00:10:09,108
Now that's a big break
from previous literature.

219
00:10:09,108 --> 00:10:10,610
Previous beliefs
that they were--

220
00:10:10,610 --> 00:10:13,079
you were born with a certain
amount of intelligence.

221
00:10:13,079 --> 00:10:15,381
It's like height, and you
cannot go beyond that.

222
00:10:15,381 --> 00:10:18,417
So the new literature on growth
mindset versus fixed mindset

223
00:10:18,417 --> 00:10:21,654
tells us we can always go
beyond what we are born with,

224
00:10:21,654 --> 00:10:24,290
which means that identity should
not be taken as something which

225
00:10:24,290 --> 00:10:25,591
is given once and for all.

226
00:10:25,591 --> 00:10:29,228
It can always massage it,
given particular context

227
00:10:29,228 --> 00:10:31,464
and given particular needs.

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00:10:31,464 --> 00:10:32,798
So maybe actually-- yeah?

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00:10:32,798 --> 00:10:35,001
AUDIENCE: It's not like
infinitely mutable though--

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00:10:35,001 --> 00:10:36,335
MICHEL DEGRAFF: Sure, of course.

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00:10:36,335 --> 00:10:36,969
Yeah.

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00:10:36,969 --> 00:10:39,639
AUDIENCE: Like, your skin
color's kind of fixed,

233
00:10:39,639 --> 00:10:42,808
and that's how
people [INAUDIBLE]..

234
00:10:42,808 --> 00:10:45,244
MICHEL DEGRAFF: But we know--

235
00:10:45,244 --> 00:10:46,912
I don't if you
remember way back when.

236
00:10:46,912 --> 00:10:49,849
[INAUDIBLE] gave an
example of this person

237
00:10:49,849 --> 00:10:53,219
who changed-- who was white
and changed to be black.

238
00:10:53,219 --> 00:10:54,120
What's her name?

239
00:10:54,120 --> 00:10:56,088
She had a job in the ACLU.

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00:10:56,088 --> 00:10:57,189
AUDIENCE: Rachel Dolezal.

241
00:10:57,189 --> 00:10:58,391
MICHEL DEGRAFF: That was you?

242
00:10:58,391 --> 00:11:00,259
That was you who said it?

243
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Yeah, so even that--

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even that, because of skin
color doesn't come alone.

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It comes with particular
assumptions about skin color.

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Like, in Haiti there are
people who look very white

247
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but who are black.

248
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Well, if to go back
to Dessaline to 1805,

249
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isn't really that even
if you are Polish,

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you want to be black,
so even back then,

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skin color was not determined--

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AUDIENCE: Yeah, although
it's interesting,

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because with Rachel Dolezal,
I feel like most people are

254
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saying they don't accept
her identifying as black,

255
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so I feel like that supports
the idea that there's something

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that's kind of fixed about it.

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MICHEL DEGRAFF: Right, yeah.

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AUDIENCE: But I feel like that
ties into what [INAUDIBLE] is

259
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saying about and what you guys
are all saying about cultural

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experiences tying into
certain things-- like,

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it being a cultural--

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it's not just about how--

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like, I guess am I wrong or
right for having this attitude?

264
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Like, kind of don't
feel like she--

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not like don't feel like
she should be allowed to,

266
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but I wouldn't
want to accept her

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because it's like how
dare you, a person who

268
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has had no experience as
an African-American human

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try to identify with that.

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And maybe it would have been
different if she had been

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a person of color trying
to identify-- like,

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if she had been
Indian or, you know,

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I'm trying to think of another--

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or Filipino or something
trying to identify

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as African-American, maybe I
would have been more lenient,

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but as a privileged non-person
of color, I don't know.

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AUDIENCE: But it's
also interesting,

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the idea that when you're
crafting your identity

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and crafting your authentic
identity, what do you--

280
00:12:43,129 --> 00:12:45,598
your whole identity,
your authentic identity

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00:12:45,598 --> 00:12:47,299
is that you're not
authentic to anything,

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but when you're
crafting your identity,

283
00:12:48,734 --> 00:12:49,835
what do you draw from?

284
00:12:49,835 --> 00:12:51,570
Is it like what you
authentically feel as,

285
00:12:51,570 --> 00:12:54,740
or is what you
authentically have ties to?

286
00:12:54,740 --> 00:12:56,542
Like, I have a similar
situation where,

287
00:12:56,542 --> 00:13:00,813
like, mixed Indian heritage kind
of thing, and when I'm crafting

288
00:13:00,813 --> 00:13:03,582
my Indian American identity,
do I base it off South Indian,

289
00:13:03,582 --> 00:13:06,018
do I base it off Mauritian,
do I base off of North Indian?

290
00:13:06,018 --> 00:13:07,953
Like, what what do I do?

291
00:13:07,953 --> 00:13:10,523
But it's like, do I
pull from the past

292
00:13:10,523 --> 00:13:11,824
or pull from what I feel?

293
00:13:11,824 --> 00:13:13,559
And Rachel Dolezal's,
her whole thing

294
00:13:13,559 --> 00:13:17,663
was that I feel black,
whatever that means, but like

295
00:13:17,663 --> 00:13:19,532
where do you draw from?

296
00:13:19,532 --> 00:13:21,534
AUDIENCE: And in a similar
way that doesn't just

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00:13:21,534 --> 00:13:24,537
apply to what you identify
as nationality-wise or

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00:13:24,537 --> 00:13:30,109
culture-wise, because I've been
so focused on being a linguist

299
00:13:30,109 --> 00:13:33,312
that the possibility
of having a capacity

300
00:13:33,312 --> 00:13:39,518
and having the intuition
to be a mechanical engineer

301
00:13:39,518 --> 00:13:42,955
never occurred to me,
but in participating

302
00:13:42,955 --> 00:13:46,692
with some friends who
are creating projects,

303
00:13:46,692 --> 00:13:48,661
I've been the one who
to come up with ideas

304
00:13:48,661 --> 00:13:49,628
that solved problems.

305
00:13:49,628 --> 00:13:52,264
And I never thought that
would be a possibility for me,

306
00:13:52,264 --> 00:13:54,033
because I don't like math.

307
00:13:54,033 --> 00:13:56,068
So it's like the identity
of being a linguist

308
00:13:56,068 --> 00:13:59,738
was so limiting that I didn't
even know I could do that,

309
00:13:59,738 --> 00:14:03,909
and I think that it's, like,
along the same lines of are

310
00:14:03,909 --> 00:14:10,349
we limiting what we can be
by choosing our identities as

311
00:14:10,349 --> 00:14:12,284
well?

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00:14:12,284 --> 00:14:15,688
MICHEL DEGRAFF: That's a
good question to ponder.

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00:14:15,688 --> 00:14:16,789
AUDIENCE: And yeah, sorry.

314
00:14:16,789 --> 00:14:18,123
MICHEL DEGRAFF: No, that's good.

315
00:14:18,123 --> 00:14:18,824
That's very good.

316
00:14:18,824 --> 00:14:21,994
I think let's stop
here, and we're now