1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:00,660 2 00:00:00,660 --> 00:00:03,340 LARRY SUSSKIND: We are excited, and honored, 3 00:00:03,340 --> 00:00:06,900 to have Professor Stephen Carpenter with us. 4 00:00:06,900 --> 00:00:10,330 And this is the first of a series of events. 5 00:00:10,330 --> 00:00:11,430 I'm Larry Susskind. 6 00:00:11,430 --> 00:00:14,350 I'm on the faculty in Urban Studies and Planning. 7 00:00:14,350 --> 00:00:16,770 It's interesting to me that several people here 8 00:00:16,770 --> 00:00:17,830 have a water interest. 9 00:00:17,830 --> 00:00:21,480 Several people here have a planning interest. 10 00:00:21,480 --> 00:00:25,980 Several people here have artistic, or art methods 11 00:00:25,980 --> 00:00:26,490 interests. 12 00:00:26,490 --> 00:00:32,780 Several people here have public education interest. 13 00:00:32,780 --> 00:00:36,780 And all of those are alive and well 14 00:00:36,780 --> 00:00:39,350 in the Department of Urban Studies and Planning 15 00:00:39,350 --> 00:00:40,980 in different kinds of ways. 16 00:00:40,980 --> 00:00:44,250 There is an environmental group in the department 17 00:00:44,250 --> 00:00:47,400 that I have had some responsibility for. 18 00:00:47,400 --> 00:00:51,870 And water is a concern within the environmental group. 19 00:00:51,870 --> 00:00:54,130 Not just domestically, but internationally, 20 00:00:54,130 --> 00:00:56,340 which relates to part of your work. 21 00:00:56,340 --> 00:01:01,470 We're interested in water as an environmental justice concern, 22 00:01:01,470 --> 00:01:04,260 not just a natural resource management concern. 23 00:01:04,260 --> 00:01:08,190 And so, when I first learned of some 24 00:01:08,190 --> 00:01:10,740 of the ways in which your work has focused 25 00:01:10,740 --> 00:01:15,330 on making clean water available to people in different places, 26 00:01:15,330 --> 00:01:20,440 there was a direct connection with that aspect of what we do. 27 00:01:20,440 --> 00:01:26,430 I was really interested in how issues of race 28 00:01:26,430 --> 00:01:33,300 could be raised in a way that conversation was possible. 29 00:01:33,300 --> 00:01:35,430 And that is another very big part 30 00:01:35,430 --> 00:01:39,060 of what our department, and our school, are interested in. 31 00:01:39,060 --> 00:01:41,670 So by way of background, those are 32 00:01:41,670 --> 00:01:46,770 some of the thematic interests that led us to very much want 33 00:01:46,770 --> 00:01:48,300 you to be here. 34 00:01:48,300 --> 00:01:50,100 STEPHEN CARPENTER: Well thanks, Larry. 35 00:01:50,100 --> 00:01:53,830 As far back as I can remember, I like making stuff. 36 00:01:53,830 --> 00:01:56,220 I would just make things, you know? 37 00:01:56,220 --> 00:01:58,050 I'm the oldest of four boys. 38 00:01:58,050 --> 00:01:59,550 And the oldest and the youngest were 39 00:01:59,550 --> 00:02:02,700 born 5 and 1/2 years apart. 40 00:02:02,700 --> 00:02:04,020 No twins. 41 00:02:04,020 --> 00:02:06,360 So we were constantly together and doing things, 42 00:02:06,360 --> 00:02:08,009 and we would make things. 43 00:02:08,009 --> 00:02:10,620 Like a set of golf clubs. 44 00:02:10,620 --> 00:02:11,820 My dad had golf clubs. 45 00:02:11,820 --> 00:02:14,220 We weren't allowed to use them, so we made them. 46 00:02:14,220 --> 00:02:18,390 Of course we used his copper pipe for the plumbing 47 00:02:18,390 --> 00:02:20,160 in the house. 48 00:02:20,160 --> 00:02:24,057 So making things was always part of what I did, and have done, 49 00:02:24,057 --> 00:02:25,140 and just engaging in the-- 50 00:02:25,140 --> 00:02:26,514 it shifts, and it has moved. 51 00:02:26,514 --> 00:02:28,680 My background's really pottery-- is really ceramics. 52 00:02:28,680 --> 00:02:31,200 Touching the clay, touching the mud, making things. 53 00:02:31,200 --> 00:02:34,440 That's my degree, is in ceramics and fine art. 54 00:02:34,440 --> 00:02:38,320 I don't know what it was, this urge, ability, interest 55 00:02:38,320 --> 00:02:40,485 for teaching, for education. 56 00:02:40,485 --> 00:02:43,440 So that complicated the situation. 57 00:02:43,440 --> 00:02:45,540 Making stuff, and teaching stuff-- well, 58 00:02:45,540 --> 00:02:46,730 actually, you can do that. 59 00:02:46,730 --> 00:02:48,960 That's called being an art educator, or a teacher. 60 00:02:48,960 --> 00:02:50,430 And the ceramics piece stayed with. 61 00:02:50,430 --> 00:02:52,440 I couldn't shake the clay, I couldn't get the clay out 62 00:02:52,440 --> 00:02:53,190 of my fingernails. 63 00:02:53,190 --> 00:02:56,280 The making of things had to always be there. 64 00:02:56,280 --> 00:02:59,000 And then I taught elementary school art, 65 00:02:59,000 --> 00:03:03,200 I was the art teacher, elementary school. 66 00:03:03,200 --> 00:03:06,140 And that was among the most invigorating experiences 67 00:03:06,140 --> 00:03:08,660 of my life, because the students are always 68 00:03:08,660 --> 00:03:09,620 about making something. 69 00:03:09,620 --> 00:03:10,980 Their bodies are always moving. 70 00:03:10,980 --> 00:03:13,430 They're constantly in a state of absorbing what they're 71 00:03:13,430 --> 00:03:16,280 doing in the world, and seeing other people doing, and moving, 72 00:03:16,280 --> 00:03:17,630 and checking, and-- 73 00:03:17,630 --> 00:03:20,300 so that energy was quite interesting to me. 74 00:03:20,300 --> 00:03:23,420 Followed that experience up with a doctoral degree 75 00:03:23,420 --> 00:03:24,530 in art education. 76 00:03:24,530 --> 00:03:27,680 But the idea was that the making, and the teaching, 77 00:03:27,680 --> 00:03:31,070 and the learning, and the asking of questions through art-- 78 00:03:31,070 --> 00:03:33,650 through the visual imagery that you're talking about-- 79 00:03:33,650 --> 00:03:35,720 that was what was so important. 80 00:03:35,720 --> 00:03:39,390 And you mentioned the notion of access. 81 00:03:39,390 --> 00:03:40,850 Well, we didn't have golf clubs. 82 00:03:40,850 --> 00:03:42,192 We didn't have access to-- 83 00:03:42,192 --> 00:03:44,150 we saw them, but we didn't have access to them. 84 00:03:44,150 --> 00:03:46,980 So making our own access, I'm interested in that as well. 85 00:03:46,980 --> 00:03:49,010 How does one make one's own access? 86 00:03:49,010 --> 00:03:53,150 So moving around to a series of different universities 87 00:03:53,150 --> 00:03:55,700 as an art educator. 88 00:03:55,700 --> 00:03:57,557 Part of both graduate degrees was 89 00:03:57,557 --> 00:03:59,390 about being in the clay studio as much as it 90 00:03:59,390 --> 00:04:00,900 was being in the seminar room. 91 00:04:00,900 --> 00:04:03,620 That was really the focus of my dissertation. 92 00:04:03,620 --> 00:04:06,320 In the clay studio we were talking, and critiquing, 93 00:04:06,320 --> 00:04:10,070 about color, and shape, and form, and how the glaze works. 94 00:04:10,070 --> 00:04:13,099 And on the other side of the same part of campus-- 95 00:04:13,099 --> 00:04:14,390 on the other side of the road-- 96 00:04:14,390 --> 00:04:16,014 in the theory classes in art education, 97 00:04:16,014 --> 00:04:19,250 we're talking about postmodern theory, and feminist theory, 98 00:04:19,250 --> 00:04:22,640 and film theory, and interpreting installations, 99 00:04:22,640 --> 00:04:24,050 and performances. 100 00:04:24,050 --> 00:04:26,600 And then on the other side of the road, 101 00:04:26,600 --> 00:04:28,340 I'd go to my class the next day. 102 00:04:28,340 --> 00:04:29,600 We were, again, critiquing. 103 00:04:29,600 --> 00:04:32,047 But we were talking about, oh, I like that handle. 104 00:04:32,047 --> 00:04:33,380 Show me how you made the handle. 105 00:04:33,380 --> 00:04:35,005 This handle works and that one doesn't. 106 00:04:35,005 --> 00:04:37,340 We never defined what works meant. 107 00:04:37,340 --> 00:04:40,550 But putting those together-- the making, and the interpreting, 108 00:04:40,550 --> 00:04:44,930 and thinking, and theorizing in both registers 109 00:04:44,930 --> 00:04:47,730 doesn't have to be separated. 110 00:04:47,730 --> 00:04:50,980 So to think of us, even with labels, I find kind of curious. 111 00:04:50,980 --> 00:04:52,560 We have to find a place on campus, 112 00:04:52,560 --> 00:04:54,470 but to understand that we can move 113 00:04:54,470 --> 00:04:55,610 in and out of those spaces. 114 00:04:55,610 --> 00:04:58,190 And we can start to shed those identities. 115 00:04:58,190 --> 00:05:02,360 The kind of group that has self assembled today 116 00:05:02,360 --> 00:05:05,440 speaks to multiple interests that I have, 117 00:05:05,440 --> 00:05:08,060 and trying to weave it into, what is an art education? 118 00:05:08,060 --> 00:05:10,310 How does one learn through the making of things, 119 00:05:10,310 --> 00:05:15,380 through the display of cultural products 120 00:05:15,380 --> 00:05:17,180 through cultural production? 121 00:05:17,180 --> 00:05:20,090 What kind of questions can we ask, not just 122 00:05:20,090 --> 00:05:21,596 about what someone else has made, 123 00:05:21,596 --> 00:05:22,970 but what kind of questions can we 124 00:05:22,970 --> 00:05:25,360 ask through the act of making, itself? 125 00:05:25,360 --> 00:05:27,110 We can make meaning through relationships, 126 00:05:27,110 --> 00:05:29,300 we can make meaning through conversation, 127 00:05:29,300 --> 00:05:33,260 we can make meaning through verbal or written responses. 128 00:05:33,260 --> 00:05:36,670 So it's the making of meaning, making of cultural product, 129 00:05:36,670 --> 00:05:37,784 making of a difference. 130 00:05:37,784 --> 00:05:38,700 LARRY SUSSKIND: Right. 131 00:05:38,700 --> 00:05:40,491 STEPHEN CARPENTER: So this notion of making 132 00:05:40,491 --> 00:05:42,710 doesn't have to always have this physicality to it. 133 00:05:42,710 --> 00:05:45,980 I'm saying all that to say, the clay 134 00:05:45,980 --> 00:05:50,330 left my fingernails for a while, until I moved to Texas. 135 00:05:50,330 --> 00:05:53,510 My wife is an engineer-- a mechanical engineer, 136 00:05:53,510 --> 00:05:54,560 material science-- 137 00:05:54,560 --> 00:05:56,684 and it's a great opportunity for her to move there. 138 00:05:56,684 --> 00:05:59,630 For me, there's no art education there at all. 139 00:05:59,630 --> 00:06:02,120 They got my CV and didn't know where to put me. 140 00:06:02,120 --> 00:06:03,144 Sent it all over campus. 141 00:06:03,144 --> 00:06:05,560 And finally, the education folks said, oh, we'll take him. 142 00:06:05,560 --> 00:06:08,300 It has education in his degree, we'll take him. 143 00:06:08,300 --> 00:06:10,640 Telling you all that to say, I got to Texas, 144 00:06:10,640 --> 00:06:12,565 and art education had to be-- 145 00:06:12,565 --> 00:06:13,940 I had reinvent it, or at least, I 146 00:06:13,940 --> 00:06:15,960 had to figure out what I meant by it. 147 00:06:15,960 --> 00:06:17,490 And how I fit in. 148 00:06:17,490 --> 00:06:18,990 If you don't have an art department, 149 00:06:18,990 --> 00:06:21,186 how do you have art education? 150 00:06:21,186 --> 00:06:23,420 Well, you just open a studio in your garage 151 00:06:23,420 --> 00:06:25,190 and have people over on Fridays. 152 00:06:25,190 --> 00:06:25,820 I did that. 153 00:06:25,820 --> 00:06:28,400 Or you can engage in the work in the curriculum, 154 00:06:28,400 --> 00:06:33,510 that fixed set of notions and premeditated concepts, 155 00:06:33,510 --> 00:06:36,560 terms, practices, skills, construct 156 00:06:36,560 --> 00:06:38,630 that educational experience. 157 00:06:38,630 --> 00:06:42,530 My entrance into a more curriculum instruction space 158 00:06:42,530 --> 00:06:45,860 was through my background as an artist, and as an art educator. 159 00:06:45,860 --> 00:06:50,630 The water filter work that I do, and have started to do, 160 00:06:50,630 --> 00:06:52,700 came about when I was in Texas. 161 00:06:52,700 --> 00:06:55,880 I met a guy, his name's Oscar Munoz. 162 00:06:55,880 --> 00:07:01,790 Oscar is in charge of the Texas A&M Colonias programs 163 00:07:01,790 --> 00:07:03,110 all along the border. 164 00:07:03,110 --> 00:07:06,290 Texas is a third the width of the United States. 165 00:07:06,290 --> 00:07:09,500 So that distance, and then 150 miles up, 166 00:07:09,500 --> 00:07:10,880 is called the border of Texas. 167 00:07:10,880 --> 00:07:14,390 In that space, there live over a half 168 00:07:14,390 --> 00:07:16,790 a million people, most of whom don't have access 169 00:07:16,790 --> 00:07:18,890 to clean water in their homes. 170 00:07:18,890 --> 00:07:23,690 And Oscar let me know this, and he works with communities 171 00:07:23,690 --> 00:07:24,955 all across that swath. 172 00:07:24,955 --> 00:07:27,080 And as an art educator, that was interesting to me. 173 00:07:27,080 --> 00:07:29,840 Because I had to learn about a lot of the practices 174 00:07:29,840 --> 00:07:32,615 that he's up against, and faces. 175 00:07:32,615 --> 00:07:35,870 I'm telling you all this to say-- 176 00:07:35,870 --> 00:07:40,400 not that I planned where my work has gone, 177 00:07:40,400 --> 00:07:44,120 but it's always migrated-- always moved and shifted-- 178 00:07:44,120 --> 00:07:46,650 to new-- it's almost like water, water finds its own level, 179 00:07:46,650 --> 00:07:47,150 right? 180 00:07:47,150 --> 00:07:50,900 Water fills the vessel in which it's poured. 181 00:07:50,900 --> 00:07:52,130 But I've never lost the clay. 182 00:07:52,130 --> 00:07:53,713 I've never lost that notion of making. 183 00:07:53,713 --> 00:07:57,020 Or the ways that meanings can be made, and understandings 184 00:07:57,020 --> 00:08:00,660 can be constructed through engagement with other people. 185 00:08:00,660 --> 00:08:04,400 That's what education is, it's a social space. 186 00:08:04,400 --> 00:08:06,740 Teaching and learning is a social space. 187 00:08:06,740 --> 00:08:10,670 Art education can take up and take on those tasks as well. 188 00:08:10,670 --> 00:08:13,670 LARRY SUSSKIND: The title for this visit 189 00:08:13,670 --> 00:08:17,720 that people have seen, and that you gave us, 190 00:08:17,720 --> 00:08:21,810 is Making Something from Nothing. 191 00:08:21,810 --> 00:08:26,270 And first of all, the immediate doubt about 192 00:08:26,270 --> 00:08:27,840 whether you can actually make-- 193 00:08:27,840 --> 00:08:29,925 I mean, you can transform things-- 194 00:08:29,925 --> 00:08:32,299 but the notion that you can make something out of nothing 195 00:08:32,299 --> 00:08:36,289 would sort of defy most of the laws of physics, presumably. 196 00:08:36,289 --> 00:08:39,169 And so, you mean something by that. 197 00:08:39,169 --> 00:08:45,730 And then, Appropriate Technology as Intentionally Disruptive 198 00:08:45,730 --> 00:08:46,800 Responsibility. 199 00:08:46,800 --> 00:08:49,300 STEPHEN CARPENTER: That is a mouthful, that title, isn't it? 200 00:08:49,300 --> 00:08:51,633 LARRY SUSSKIND: I actually had a lot of trouble with it. 201 00:08:51,633 --> 00:08:53,579 202 00:08:53,579 --> 00:08:56,120 STEPHEN CARPENTER: To the left of the colon, making something 203 00:08:56,120 --> 00:08:57,200 from nothing. 204 00:08:57,200 --> 00:09:00,140 That piece was intentionally provocative, right? 205 00:09:00,140 --> 00:09:02,750 I mean, you kind of have to do that, in some ways, 206 00:09:02,750 --> 00:09:05,870 to entice folks to show up to certain things, maybe. 207 00:09:05,870 --> 00:09:07,910 But the idea of making-- 208 00:09:07,910 --> 00:09:11,330 of course, defying laws of physics, yeah, I'm with you. 209 00:09:11,330 --> 00:09:13,700 So knowing that there's a problem with that, 210 00:09:13,700 --> 00:09:15,290 if we think of it in certain realms, 211 00:09:15,290 --> 00:09:19,430 the idea that there's some folks who don't necessarily have 212 00:09:19,430 --> 00:09:20,930 access-- it's about access. 213 00:09:20,930 --> 00:09:23,570 Maybe it should have said, making something from whatever 214 00:09:23,570 --> 00:09:24,560 it is that you have. 215 00:09:24,560 --> 00:09:25,040 LARRY SUSSKIND: Right. 216 00:09:25,040 --> 00:09:26,081 STEPHEN CARPENTER: Right? 217 00:09:26,081 --> 00:09:28,850 But if we move it to nothing, you 218 00:09:28,850 --> 00:09:33,080 start to think, well, there's a complete and utter lack 219 00:09:33,080 --> 00:09:33,921 of something. 220 00:09:33,921 --> 00:09:35,420 For example, there's some people who 221 00:09:35,420 --> 00:09:38,750 have no access to clean water. 222 00:09:38,750 --> 00:09:41,240 We can raise a bit of hyperbole there 223 00:09:41,240 --> 00:09:44,120 and say they don't have access, or they have nothing. 224 00:09:44,120 --> 00:09:47,360 They're folks who-- we talk about food scarcity, 225 00:09:47,360 --> 00:09:49,620 we talk about folks who are homeless folks, who 226 00:09:49,620 --> 00:09:50,600 need shelter. 227 00:09:50,600 --> 00:09:54,140 So you can take minimum, and exaggerate it 228 00:09:54,140 --> 00:09:55,439 just a little bit more-- 229 00:09:55,439 --> 00:09:57,230 there's this thing called artistic license, 230 00:09:57,230 --> 00:09:58,430 let's use that-- 231 00:09:58,430 --> 00:10:00,290 and turn it into nothing. 232 00:10:00,290 --> 00:10:01,880 So making something from nothing, 233 00:10:01,880 --> 00:10:04,070 what can we make from what is available to us? 234 00:10:04,070 --> 00:10:05,780 So that's the something from nothing. 235 00:10:05,780 --> 00:10:07,846 And in the case of this first visit, 236 00:10:07,846 --> 00:10:09,845 the something is adequate access to clean water. 237 00:10:09,845 --> 00:10:12,350 And the nothing is the lack of that. 238 00:10:12,350 --> 00:10:16,400 And the something is a response, which in this case, 239 00:10:16,400 --> 00:10:19,260 is a ceramic water filter made out of clay and sawdust. 240 00:10:19,260 --> 00:10:22,010 The nothing is, well, that's just clay. 241 00:10:22,010 --> 00:10:23,760 It's just in the riverbed. 242 00:10:23,760 --> 00:10:25,010 That's nothing. 243 00:10:25,010 --> 00:10:28,080 That's just sawdust, that's leftover scraps. 244 00:10:28,080 --> 00:10:29,450 That's nothing. 245 00:10:29,450 --> 00:10:31,670 You understand that play that's going there? 246 00:10:31,670 --> 00:10:33,770 Appropriate technology is essentially 247 00:10:33,770 --> 00:10:36,590 whatever is available culturally, 248 00:10:36,590 --> 00:10:41,930 and locally, that fits in within the cultural practices 249 00:10:41,930 --> 00:10:44,000 of a community. 250 00:10:44,000 --> 00:10:49,460 Introducing an external, or an unfamiliar substance, 251 00:10:49,460 --> 00:10:54,740 or chemical, or food, is not appropriate 252 00:10:54,740 --> 00:10:55,859 to a certain community. 253 00:10:55,859 --> 00:10:57,650 Because it's either against one's religion, 254 00:10:57,650 --> 00:10:59,930 it's against one's history, against one's culture. 255 00:10:59,930 --> 00:11:02,940 It doesn't fit in, so finding something that's appropriate. 256 00:11:02,940 --> 00:11:05,750 For example, clay is essentially a material 257 00:11:05,750 --> 00:11:07,970 that is accessible to almost every single culture 258 00:11:07,970 --> 00:11:10,130 in the history of the world. 259 00:11:10,130 --> 00:11:14,480 And clay is a naturally occurring material 260 00:11:14,480 --> 00:11:16,130 in most places around the world. 261 00:11:16,130 --> 00:11:17,960 Now, some places using plastic, that 262 00:11:17,960 --> 00:11:19,130 doesn't seem to make sense. 263 00:11:19,130 --> 00:11:22,690 Or appropriate technologies, using what is at hand. 264 00:11:22,690 --> 00:11:25,280 Philosopher, theorist Umberto Eco-- 265 00:11:25,280 --> 00:11:26,950 he was a guy who knew everything, 266 00:11:26,950 --> 00:11:28,120 but he didn't know it. 267 00:11:28,120 --> 00:11:29,800 Eco had numerous theories. 268 00:11:29,800 --> 00:11:32,460 Among them was this theory of intentions. 269 00:11:32,460 --> 00:11:35,470 When he says the artist, or the author, has an intention, 270 00:11:35,470 --> 00:11:38,140 and the viewer, or the reader, has an intention. 271 00:11:38,140 --> 00:11:40,360 But he also says the work has an intention. 272 00:11:40,360 --> 00:11:44,620 That comes about through this process, or a series of events. 273 00:11:44,620 --> 00:11:46,210 But this idea of having an intention 274 00:11:46,210 --> 00:11:48,160 means it's deliberate. 275 00:11:48,160 --> 00:11:51,340 So I'm interested in thinking about why 276 00:11:51,340 --> 00:11:52,570 we're doing what we're doing. 277 00:11:52,570 --> 00:11:54,150 That's where that intentional piece-- 278 00:11:54,150 --> 00:11:56,620 disruptive. 279 00:11:56,620 --> 00:11:58,960 If I pick this up, and I threw this water at the camera, 280 00:11:58,960 --> 00:12:00,835 that would be disruptive in a number of ways. 281 00:12:00,835 --> 00:12:06,460 Or if you're in a quiet library, and a stampede of aardvarks 282 00:12:06,460 --> 00:12:08,530 comes through the space, that's disruption. 283 00:12:08,530 --> 00:12:11,260 So we understand disruption as something that is abnormal, 284 00:12:11,260 --> 00:12:14,140 or not expected within a particular context 285 00:12:14,140 --> 00:12:18,220 that has assumed rules, regulations, and ways of being. 286 00:12:18,220 --> 00:12:19,960 But I'm also thinking of disruption 287 00:12:19,960 --> 00:12:24,610 in the intentional sense of, to reveal, or to poke at, 288 00:12:24,610 --> 00:12:28,930 or to engage, or to entice a certain kind of conversation, 289 00:12:28,930 --> 00:12:30,220 or relationship. 290 00:12:30,220 --> 00:12:31,990 And that conversation or relationship 291 00:12:31,990 --> 00:12:34,600 is the responsibility. 292 00:12:34,600 --> 00:12:37,810 LARRY SUSSKIND: Would you agree that most educational efforts 293 00:12:37,810 --> 00:12:41,980 are disruptions aimed at fulfilling a responsibility, 294 00:12:41,980 --> 00:12:43,984 that it's defining education that way? 295 00:12:43,984 --> 00:12:46,150 STEPHEN CARPENTER: I don't think enough of them are. 296 00:12:46,150 --> 00:12:47,300 LARRY SUSSKIND: Oh, you think they should be. 297 00:12:47,300 --> 00:12:47,920 STEPHEN CARPENTER: I think they should. 298 00:12:47,920 --> 00:12:50,550 I'd like to shift that up, and question that. 299 00:12:50,550 --> 00:12:56,350 And it's very difficult to get at new ways of doing something, 300 00:12:56,350 --> 00:12:59,722 without disrupting a status quo, without questioning it. 301 00:12:59,722 --> 00:13:01,930 LARRY SUSSKIND: We say it's because we're responsible 302 00:13:01,930 --> 00:13:05,440 and we have to disrupt, but what about the choice 303 00:13:05,440 --> 00:13:09,100 of the people, and the place, whose lives you're disrupting? 304 00:13:09,100 --> 00:13:10,330 Is that fair to them? 305 00:13:10,330 --> 00:13:10,750 STEPHEN CARPENTER: Sure. 306 00:13:10,750 --> 00:13:11,250 Yeah. 307 00:13:11,250 --> 00:13:14,480 Certainly the way you frame it, it's not fair to them. 308 00:13:14,480 --> 00:13:16,960 But in the disruption of the lives 309 00:13:16,960 --> 00:13:20,170 of communities that I mentioned, in Texas, 310 00:13:20,170 --> 00:13:23,710 is not disrupting uninvited. 311 00:13:23,710 --> 00:13:25,300 It's an invited disruption. 312 00:13:25,300 --> 00:13:28,330 And second, the disruption has to do 313 00:13:28,330 --> 00:13:34,180 with whatever the current practice was, was not 314 00:13:34,180 --> 00:13:38,060 fulfilling, or responding to needs of the community. 315 00:13:38,060 --> 00:13:39,310 LARRY SUSSKIND: In their eyes. 316 00:13:39,310 --> 00:13:41,410 STEPHEN CARPENTER: In their eyes. 317 00:13:41,410 --> 00:13:44,139 And to my eyes, as well. 318 00:13:44,139 --> 00:13:45,430 So my friend-- as I mentioned-- 319 00:13:45,430 --> 00:13:51,340 Oscar, who for years has been working throughout South Texas. 320 00:13:51,340 --> 00:13:53,770 When he learned of the work I that I was-- 321 00:13:53,770 --> 00:13:56,050 at that point-- still learning how to do, 322 00:13:56,050 --> 00:13:57,910 he said, oh, there's a water issue. 323 00:13:57,910 --> 00:14:00,370 Would you come down, and work with us, talk to us, 324 00:14:00,370 --> 00:14:01,900 let's see if this would work out. 325 00:14:01,900 --> 00:14:03,790 That was my invitation to come in. 326 00:14:03,790 --> 00:14:05,498 Oscar was already part of that community, 327 00:14:05,498 --> 00:14:08,770 I would never imagine just driving down there-- 328 00:14:08,770 --> 00:14:10,780 driving to any community-- 329 00:14:10,780 --> 00:14:12,597 and say, hey, I have something you need. 330 00:14:12,597 --> 00:14:13,930 I'm going to sell you something. 331 00:14:13,930 --> 00:14:15,520 That's not my approach. 332 00:14:15,520 --> 00:14:17,830 And so, that kind of disruption, I think, 333 00:14:17,830 --> 00:14:21,620 is on the unethical side. 334 00:14:21,620 --> 00:14:24,300 He was a bit wary of someone coming in. 335 00:14:24,300 --> 00:14:25,990 And he's shared-- and other people 336 00:14:25,990 --> 00:14:27,970 have shared-- stories with me of researchers 337 00:14:27,970 --> 00:14:32,080 going into communities, oh, yeah, I have these ideas. 338 00:14:32,080 --> 00:14:33,515 Let me study what you're doing. 339 00:14:33,515 --> 00:14:34,390 Let me work with you. 340 00:14:34,390 --> 00:14:37,000 And they take the information, and there's 341 00:14:37,000 --> 00:14:39,850 a report that's promised, and the report never 342 00:14:39,850 --> 00:14:41,140 gets back to the communities. 343 00:14:41,140 --> 00:14:43,570 Or the results never help. 344 00:14:43,570 --> 00:14:47,920 And he said he had never seen a report come back, 345 00:14:47,920 --> 00:14:50,320 based on the invitations to the scholars. 346 00:14:50,320 --> 00:14:52,930 And so, once we got to know each other, 347 00:14:52,930 --> 00:14:54,640 he felt comfortable with me. 348 00:14:54,640 --> 00:14:59,200 But then he had to go through a process of talking with members 349 00:14:59,200 --> 00:15:01,795 of the community and say, hey, here's-- 350 00:15:01,795 --> 00:15:04,364 I have this friend coming down. 351 00:15:04,364 --> 00:15:05,530 That's the invitation piece. 352 00:15:05,530 --> 00:15:08,470 LARRY SUSSKIND: So what does an invitation have to consist 353 00:15:08,470 --> 00:15:09,760 of-- for you-- 354 00:15:09,760 --> 00:15:15,100 to be of a sort that you are comfortable then responding 355 00:15:15,100 --> 00:15:17,700 in this disruptive way? 356 00:15:17,700 --> 00:15:19,390 Do you need a vote or the community? 357 00:15:19,390 --> 00:15:20,830 Has to be 100 percent? 358 00:15:20,830 --> 00:15:22,810 Majority rule? 359 00:15:22,810 --> 00:15:25,020 People you like say, come on down? 360 00:15:25,020 --> 00:15:29,080 What is, in your mind, what legitimizes 361 00:15:29,080 --> 00:15:30,352 these kinds of disruptions? 362 00:15:30,352 --> 00:15:31,810 STEPHEN CARPENTER: Again, there has 363 00:15:31,810 --> 00:15:34,720 to be that invitation from someone who is positioned 364 00:15:34,720 --> 00:15:35,950 within the community. 365 00:15:35,950 --> 00:15:38,110 Then there has to be-- 366 00:15:38,110 --> 00:15:39,850 for me-- a conversation. 367 00:15:39,850 --> 00:15:42,520 And so, no, the entire community. 368 00:15:42,520 --> 00:15:44,470 Because defining who is in the community 369 00:15:44,470 --> 00:15:46,720 is often difficult to do anyway. 370 00:15:46,720 --> 00:15:48,790 Certainly, it's often just a leader, 371 00:15:48,790 --> 00:15:51,670 or a member of the community who might 372 00:15:51,670 --> 00:15:55,450 want engage a conversation, that then might 373 00:15:55,450 --> 00:15:56,860 expand in their own circles. 374 00:15:56,860 --> 00:15:59,080 In this particular case-- 375 00:15:59,080 --> 00:16:01,180 in Texas, through my colleague-- we 376 00:16:01,180 --> 00:16:04,630 met with a few leaders, people who 377 00:16:04,630 --> 00:16:07,280 had worked within the communities as [SPANISH],, 378 00:16:07,280 --> 00:16:12,790 as community educators, and other senior members 379 00:16:12,790 --> 00:16:13,970 of the community. 380 00:16:13,970 --> 00:16:16,870 Senior meaning they had been doing work 381 00:16:16,870 --> 00:16:19,470 at the community centers. 382 00:16:19,470 --> 00:16:21,247 And it was, let's just talk, let's 383 00:16:21,247 --> 00:16:22,580 see where the conversation goes. 384 00:16:22,580 --> 00:16:25,079 Very much like what we're doing here, having a conversation. 385 00:16:25,079 --> 00:16:28,940 Now, it's not my role or position, or personality, 386 00:16:28,940 --> 00:16:31,820 or interest, to push that. 387 00:16:31,820 --> 00:16:35,340 After that conversation, that's on whomever to take that up. 388 00:16:35,340 --> 00:16:38,354 So when I speak of community, it's not the entirety. 389 00:16:38,354 --> 00:16:40,520 LARRY SUSSKIND: There's not a simple answer to this. 390 00:16:40,520 --> 00:16:43,760 We all struggle with this notion of the artist 391 00:16:43,760 --> 00:16:47,720 as a independent thinker, as a creator of something 392 00:16:47,720 --> 00:16:50,900 that's an expression of an individual view when 393 00:16:50,900 --> 00:16:54,170 you're calling this a form of art education. 394 00:16:54,170 --> 00:16:58,430 But isn't it contrary to artists being artists? 395 00:16:58,430 --> 00:17:01,497 How is it art? 396 00:17:01,497 --> 00:17:03,580 STEPHEN CARPENTER: So that's not a small question, 397 00:17:03,580 --> 00:17:05,099 but it's a very important question. 398 00:17:05,099 --> 00:17:08,890 It's a central question that I'm still answering for myself. 399 00:17:08,890 --> 00:17:10,890 But there are three realms here. 400 00:17:10,890 --> 00:17:16,579 One is the work in South Texas, that I actually wouldn't call 401 00:17:16,579 --> 00:17:18,712 that art, or art education. 402 00:17:18,712 --> 00:17:19,670 LARRY SUSSKIND: Oh, OK. 403 00:17:19,670 --> 00:17:20,586 STEPHEN CARPENTER: OK? 404 00:17:20,586 --> 00:17:23,750 Second is the kind of work that I will do tomorrow, 405 00:17:23,750 --> 00:17:25,470 the performance. 406 00:17:25,470 --> 00:17:30,140 And that moves into the realm of social practice. 407 00:17:30,140 --> 00:17:35,060 And that's where I've come to an agreement, understanding, 408 00:17:35,060 --> 00:17:37,160 comfortable place with myself, that that's where 409 00:17:37,160 --> 00:17:39,890 the art education happens. 410 00:17:39,890 --> 00:17:43,490 And then, there's a third piece, your definition of an artist, 411 00:17:43,490 --> 00:17:46,340 and what an artist does, that I want to disrupt. 412 00:17:46,340 --> 00:17:48,650 Down in South Texas, that kind of work, for me, 413 00:17:48,650 --> 00:17:49,700 is not art education. 414 00:17:49,700 --> 00:17:53,000 It certainly uses an employees certain artistic practices. 415 00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:54,532 Folks who have access to a kiln-- 416 00:17:54,532 --> 00:17:56,240 know how to fire a kiln-- and have access 417 00:17:56,240 --> 00:18:00,110 to clay, that's where you want to begin your work. 418 00:18:00,110 --> 00:18:04,160 Usually that's the tile person, or the potter, 419 00:18:04,160 --> 00:18:05,270 or it's the brick maker. 420 00:18:05,270 --> 00:18:11,060 But my collaboration, and my involvement in that project, I 421 00:18:11,060 --> 00:18:12,800 wouldn't call that art. 422 00:18:12,800 --> 00:18:14,570 That was kind of me shed-- 423 00:18:14,570 --> 00:18:16,710 if that helps to clarify that piece of it. 424 00:18:16,710 --> 00:18:19,790 So the work that I will do tomorrow. 425 00:18:19,790 --> 00:18:21,800 I'm going to set up a water filter production 426 00:18:21,800 --> 00:18:25,130 facility in one of the rooms downstairs, 427 00:18:25,130 --> 00:18:27,230 and going to make water filters. 428 00:18:27,230 --> 00:18:34,250 The idea there is to engage in a practice that somehow blurs 429 00:18:34,250 --> 00:18:37,760 what might be our conventional notions of art making, art 430 00:18:37,760 --> 00:18:41,960 practice, with practices from other disciplines. 431 00:18:41,960 --> 00:18:44,900 We're not quite sure where one ends, and one begins. 432 00:18:44,900 --> 00:18:47,990 And it's supposed to remain in that uncomfortable space, 433 00:18:47,990 --> 00:18:51,200 if one is thinking in that social practice-- art is 434 00:18:51,200 --> 00:18:52,325 social practice-- register. 435 00:18:52,325 --> 00:18:55,220 If you can set up that practice as an engagement, 436 00:18:55,220 --> 00:18:58,610 as an ongoing set of activities, where people 437 00:18:58,610 --> 00:19:00,630 can come in and out of that space, 438 00:19:00,630 --> 00:19:02,030 there's an educational component. 439 00:19:02,030 --> 00:19:03,980 Invariably, there'll be a question, hey man, 440 00:19:03,980 --> 00:19:05,930 what are you doing? 441 00:19:05,930 --> 00:19:08,240 That's an invitation, right there, for me to respond. 442 00:19:08,240 --> 00:19:11,494 So we can establish this conversation as a relationship. 443 00:19:11,494 --> 00:19:13,160 LARRY SUSSKIND: You're not creating art. 444 00:19:13,160 --> 00:19:16,670 You're creating something that serves a function in response 445 00:19:16,670 --> 00:19:18,560 to the need of a client. 446 00:19:18,560 --> 00:19:20,510 You're saying, no it's not art. 447 00:19:20,510 --> 00:19:23,120 I'm an artist, and it's my social practice 448 00:19:23,120 --> 00:19:25,640 that you should observe here as art education. 449 00:19:25,640 --> 00:19:28,184 But the product of my artwork is not art. 450 00:19:28,184 --> 00:19:30,350 STEPHEN CARPENTER: It's more than the filter itself. 451 00:19:30,350 --> 00:19:34,410 That filter is just one component of the work. 452 00:19:34,410 --> 00:19:36,680 The work being the performance. 453 00:19:36,680 --> 00:19:39,710 Education as experience, this notion of experience 454 00:19:39,710 --> 00:19:41,180 is where the education happens. 455 00:19:41,180 --> 00:19:44,510 LARRY SUSSKIND: For some of us, the next step is, oh, 456 00:19:44,510 --> 00:19:46,850 and I want to help a place in Africa, 457 00:19:46,850 --> 00:19:49,460 or Latin America, in a community, 458 00:19:49,460 --> 00:19:52,880 make a factory where there are people-- 459 00:19:52,880 --> 00:19:57,140 now, without me there-- capable of making more filters. 460 00:19:57,140 --> 00:19:59,240 And maybe they can sell 'em for a small amount 461 00:19:59,240 --> 00:20:03,320 to be able to maintain a community business. 462 00:20:03,320 --> 00:20:06,649 The doing of all of that seems to be a different realm. 463 00:20:06,649 --> 00:20:07,940 STEPHEN CARPENTER: It is, yeah. 464 00:20:07,940 --> 00:20:12,560 And I have not worked closely with communities-- 465 00:20:12,560 --> 00:20:14,480 as you're saying-- to set up facilities. 466 00:20:14,480 --> 00:20:16,032 Although, in South Texas, I did. 467 00:20:16,032 --> 00:20:17,990 I helped laid the groundwork in that facility-- 468 00:20:17,990 --> 00:20:18,260 LARRY SUSSKIND: I saw pictures. 469 00:20:18,260 --> 00:20:19,040 STEPHEN CARPENTER: --is working. 470 00:20:19,040 --> 00:20:20,039 You saw pictures, right. 471 00:20:20,039 --> 00:20:22,340 But there are a number of groups who 472 00:20:22,340 --> 00:20:26,810 are doing the exact kind of work that you're mentioning. 473 00:20:26,810 --> 00:20:30,140 And it's not from an arts, or an art education perspective. 474 00:20:30,140 --> 00:20:33,620 It is from that social entrepreneur realm 475 00:20:33,620 --> 00:20:35,540 that you're talking about. 476 00:20:35,540 --> 00:20:37,580 And I am very supportive of that piece. 477 00:20:37,580 --> 00:20:40,010 And that is actually an intriguing component 478 00:20:40,010 --> 00:20:44,000 of what comes out of this work. 479 00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:47,090 It's that work that then has benefits 480 00:20:47,090 --> 00:20:52,880 in terms of health, economics, self-sustaining capacity, 481 00:20:52,880 --> 00:20:54,290 that I find intriguing. 482 00:20:54,290 --> 00:20:57,290 And it's something that can be attempted, 483 00:20:57,290 --> 00:21:00,080 where it's not intended to be a money maker initially, 484 00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:02,270 it's intended to save people's lives, 485 00:21:02,270 --> 00:21:04,580 and to respond in that way. 486 00:21:04,580 --> 00:21:06,350 AUDIENCE: So I'm curious about the longer 487 00:21:06,350 --> 00:21:08,600 term with this community in South Texas 488 00:21:08,600 --> 00:21:10,100 that you're working with. 489 00:21:10,100 --> 00:21:12,474 Obviously, it sounds like there's a really pressing need, 490 00:21:12,474 --> 00:21:14,840 so these water filters can meet that immediate need. 491 00:21:14,840 --> 00:21:18,530 Is the long term goal still to get a more traditional grid 492 00:21:18,530 --> 00:21:19,551 water setup for them? 493 00:21:19,551 --> 00:21:20,550 STEPHEN CARPENTER: Yeah. 494 00:21:20,550 --> 00:21:21,086 Yes. 495 00:21:21,086 --> 00:21:22,710 The origin of the filters was that they 496 00:21:22,710 --> 00:21:27,030 were supposed to be a first response to natural disaster, 497 00:21:27,030 --> 00:21:29,100 and they were not supposed to be long term. 498 00:21:29,100 --> 00:21:32,624 Their point of use, temporary solutions. 499 00:21:32,624 --> 00:21:34,540 Unfortunately for some folks around the world, 500 00:21:34,540 --> 00:21:37,609 these have become more long term responses. 501 00:21:37,609 --> 00:21:39,900 AUDIENCE: What do you do when you're just starting out? 502 00:21:39,900 --> 00:21:43,170 What's your advice for how you go about getting an invitation? 503 00:21:43,170 --> 00:21:45,840 STEPHEN CARPENTER: That's a tough one. 504 00:21:45,840 --> 00:21:50,100 Sometimes it's not about poking for the invitation initially. 505 00:21:50,100 --> 00:21:54,602 Sometimes you find ways to become part of the community. 506 00:21:54,602 --> 00:21:56,310 At some level, that might sound like, oh, 507 00:21:56,310 --> 00:21:58,620 but you're really kind of manipulating. 508 00:21:58,620 --> 00:21:59,790 Because in the back of your mind you're saying, 509 00:21:59,790 --> 00:22:02,100 OK, at the right moment, I'm going to spring the question. 510 00:22:02,100 --> 00:22:03,510 I'm going to get the invitation. 511 00:22:03,510 --> 00:22:04,926 That's not what I'm talking about. 512 00:22:04,926 --> 00:22:07,530 What I'm talking about is being part of a community, 513 00:22:07,530 --> 00:22:09,600 and doing the work in the community. 514 00:22:09,600 --> 00:22:12,510 Where the work that you're doing might be seen 515 00:22:12,510 --> 00:22:14,930 by folks who could invite you. 516 00:22:14,930 --> 00:22:18,090 Again, that sounds like it's some sort of nefarious, 517 00:22:18,090 --> 00:22:20,520 manipulative component. 518 00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:23,910 But not really, I think it's about continuing your work, 519 00:22:23,910 --> 00:22:26,130 and staying visible. 520 00:22:26,130 --> 00:22:27,810 And the invitations come. 521 00:22:27,810 --> 00:22:31,560 There's an approach called arts entrepreneurship that 522 00:22:31,560 --> 00:22:34,650 is gaining traction, and several universities 523 00:22:34,650 --> 00:22:39,910 have courses in arts entrepreneurship-- and minors, 524 00:22:39,910 --> 00:22:42,539 and I think a few are starting majors as well, or have majors. 525 00:22:42,539 --> 00:22:44,830 Because these other groups are doing this kind of work, 526 00:22:44,830 --> 00:22:47,040 folks know about the water filter technology. 527 00:22:47,040 --> 00:22:49,373 It's starting to take off, and people are collaborating, 528 00:22:49,373 --> 00:22:50,970 they're entering into that space. 529 00:22:50,970 --> 00:22:52,770 And what they're doing, is they're making 530 00:22:52,770 --> 00:22:54,210 available for their learners-- 531 00:22:54,210 --> 00:22:57,240 K-12 learners-- possibilities that they might not 532 00:22:57,240 --> 00:22:57,965 have thought. 533 00:22:57,965 --> 00:22:59,340 It's the curriculum work that I'm 534 00:22:59,340 --> 00:23:02,654 doing with teachers, I think, that becomes quite engaging. 535 00:23:02,654 --> 00:23:03,570 LARRY SUSSKIND: Great. 536 00:23:03,570 --> 00:23:04,620 Thank you all, very much. 537 00:23:04,620 --> 00:23:05,690 STEPHEN CARPENTER: Thank you very much. 538 00:23:05,690 --> 00:23:06,981 Yeah, hope to see you tomorrow. 539 00:23:06,981 --> 00:23:09,230 Thank you, thank you. 540 00:23:09,230 --> 00:23:16,006