1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:00,390 2 00:00:00,390 --> 00:00:01,765 STEPHEN CARPENTER: Part of what I 3 00:00:01,765 --> 00:00:03,570 do is work with people who are preparing 4 00:00:03,570 --> 00:00:06,170 to be K-12 art teachers. 5 00:00:06,170 --> 00:00:08,140 I actually work with artists. 6 00:00:08,140 --> 00:00:13,230 I've taught studio-based courses in ceramics, drawing. 7 00:00:13,230 --> 00:00:15,740 And I'm also working with grad students who 8 00:00:15,740 --> 00:00:19,950 are interested in engaging in research about and through 9 00:00:19,950 --> 00:00:23,860 and within art practices, visual cultural practices. 10 00:00:23,860 --> 00:00:29,070 So there's this range of folks with whom I'm working. 11 00:00:29,070 --> 00:00:30,300 So one of your-- 12 00:00:30,300 --> 00:00:32,592 I'm trying to negotiate a place to enter, Larry. 13 00:00:32,592 --> 00:00:34,050 And one of the things that you said 14 00:00:34,050 --> 00:00:40,030 was how explicit am I with, as we've been calling it, 15 00:00:40,030 --> 00:00:43,607 this hidden agenda, a hidden curriculum? 16 00:00:43,607 --> 00:00:44,940 LARRY SUSSKIND: Not as an agenda 17 00:00:44,940 --> 00:00:46,480 STEPHEN CARPENTER: No, but it's the same thing, right? 18 00:00:46,480 --> 00:00:48,170 In many cases, it's the same thing, right? 19 00:00:48,170 --> 00:00:49,740 Because you have an agenda that you're trying to cover, 20 00:00:49,740 --> 00:00:51,870 whether it's an official agenda, we 21 00:00:51,870 --> 00:00:55,640 can correlate that to the official curriculum. 22 00:00:55,640 --> 00:00:59,190 And I'm pulling this term, these curriculum pieces 23 00:00:59,190 --> 00:01:01,860 from the work of George Posner and others, 24 00:01:01,860 --> 00:01:05,670 where you might consider there are five kinds of curriculum 25 00:01:05,670 --> 00:01:08,726 that are happening at the same time, five 26 00:01:08,726 --> 00:01:09,600 concurrent curricula. 27 00:01:09,600 --> 00:01:12,660 He says there's the official curriculum, which 28 00:01:12,660 --> 00:01:13,660 is what is written down. 29 00:01:13,660 --> 00:01:14,910 It's that officially mandated. 30 00:01:14,910 --> 00:01:16,384 This is what will be taught. 31 00:01:16,384 --> 00:01:18,300 Then there there's the operational curriculum. 32 00:01:18,300 --> 00:01:22,570 It's what you put into practice, trying to operationalize it. 33 00:01:22,570 --> 00:01:25,380 So it would be the official agenda, then 34 00:01:25,380 --> 00:01:27,200 the operationalized agenda. 35 00:01:27,200 --> 00:01:30,280 So agenda and curriculum to me, agenda gets a bad rap, 36 00:01:30,280 --> 00:01:31,530 I think, just like propaganda. 37 00:01:31,530 --> 00:01:33,280 But that's a different kettle of horses. 38 00:01:33,280 --> 00:01:33,780 OK. 39 00:01:33,780 --> 00:01:36,180 So then the third curriculum that Posner talks about 40 00:01:36,180 --> 00:01:41,070 is the hidden curriculum, what is not official, 41 00:01:41,070 --> 00:01:43,980 what is not officially written down and intended, 42 00:01:43,980 --> 00:01:47,670 and what also is not necessarily operationalized intentionally. 43 00:01:47,670 --> 00:01:50,610 But it is what is hidden and gets learned and taught 44 00:01:50,610 --> 00:01:51,720 at the same time. 45 00:01:51,720 --> 00:01:54,420 The fourth would then be the null curriculum, 46 00:01:54,420 --> 00:01:56,670 what is not taught, what is not intended to be taught, 47 00:01:56,670 --> 00:01:59,630 what is absent and explicitly missing. 48 00:01:59,630 --> 00:02:01,380 And then the fifth is the extracurriculum. 49 00:02:01,380 --> 00:02:04,330 It doesn't happen inside those intentional spaces 50 00:02:04,330 --> 00:02:07,080 that we might think is formalized schooling. 51 00:02:07,080 --> 00:02:09,169 So if we think of-- you're on the volleyball team. 52 00:02:09,169 --> 00:02:11,970 That's extracurricular, but it's still related to that education 53 00:02:11,970 --> 00:02:12,480 space. 54 00:02:12,480 --> 00:02:15,070 All five of those things are happening all the time. 55 00:02:15,070 --> 00:02:20,611 So the hidden agenda, the hidden curriculum is one that I-- 56 00:02:20,611 --> 00:02:22,860 and there's some tension there, because in some cases, 57 00:02:22,860 --> 00:02:27,150 it's operationalized with a conscious awareness 58 00:02:27,150 --> 00:02:27,907 that it's hidden. 59 00:02:27,907 --> 00:02:29,490 I'm not going to be explicit about it. 60 00:02:29,490 --> 00:02:31,380 But then there can be a hidden curriculum 61 00:02:31,380 --> 00:02:33,450 where it's being taught and learned 62 00:02:33,450 --> 00:02:37,220 without the intention of it being taught and learned. 63 00:02:37,220 --> 00:02:40,020 So when we ask kids to-- 64 00:02:40,020 --> 00:02:42,730 for example, there are bathrooms-- 65 00:02:42,730 --> 00:02:45,300 when I was a kid, gendered bathrooms, 66 00:02:45,300 --> 00:02:47,470 men's bathroom when we're boys and girls, 67 00:02:47,470 --> 00:02:49,470 and so it's teaching us certain things about how 68 00:02:49,470 --> 00:02:51,450 society is structured. 69 00:02:51,450 --> 00:02:53,670 But when we move and have a shift 70 00:02:53,670 --> 00:02:56,190 in our cultural and social space where bathrooms 71 00:02:56,190 --> 00:02:59,580 don't have to have certain labels, then other knowledge, 72 00:02:59,580 --> 00:03:02,680 other ideas are taught and learned through those gestures. 73 00:03:02,680 --> 00:03:04,765 But they're not necessarily official. 74 00:03:04,765 --> 00:03:05,640 Does that make sense? 75 00:03:05,640 --> 00:03:06,410 LARRY SUSSKIND: Yeah. 76 00:03:06,410 --> 00:03:07,326 STEPHEN CARPENTER: OK. 77 00:03:07,326 --> 00:03:11,360 So the program where I teach at Penn State for an art 78 00:03:11,360 --> 00:03:15,634 education, also at VCFA, we're very explicit about what 79 00:03:15,634 --> 00:03:16,800 that hidden agenda might be. 80 00:03:16,800 --> 00:03:18,330 It's to the point where it's not hidden at all. 81 00:03:18,330 --> 00:03:19,490 It's very upfront. 82 00:03:19,490 --> 00:03:20,460 It's very official. 83 00:03:20,460 --> 00:03:21,960 And it gets operationalized in terms 84 00:03:21,960 --> 00:03:26,940 of a focus on social justice, a focus on the role of artists 85 00:03:26,940 --> 00:03:30,060 and art in the world and what matters matter 86 00:03:30,060 --> 00:03:38,160 and how we can engage with concepts and theories 87 00:03:38,160 --> 00:03:40,740 like we heard in the introduction-- feminist theory 88 00:03:40,740 --> 00:03:43,950 or critical race theory or critical pedagogy. 89 00:03:43,950 --> 00:03:47,580 Or we can think about anti-racist theory. 90 00:03:47,580 --> 00:03:50,230 So we can think about-- or disability studies-- 91 00:03:50,230 --> 00:03:54,910 all of these different ways in which society operates 92 00:03:54,910 --> 00:03:59,450 are part of the curriculum that I've 93 00:03:59,450 --> 00:04:01,820 been part of in these two institutions 94 00:04:01,820 --> 00:04:03,860 to look at the preparation of teachers. 95 00:04:03,860 --> 00:04:08,060 So someone who says, hey, I want to go study in this program, 96 00:04:08,060 --> 00:04:09,800 it's not a surprise to them when we 97 00:04:09,800 --> 00:04:14,450 start talking about feminist pedagogy and feminist issues. 98 00:04:14,450 --> 00:04:17,000 What might be a surprise is perhaps 99 00:04:17,000 --> 00:04:19,529 the ways in which we approach that and then operationalize 100 00:04:19,529 --> 00:04:20,029 it. 101 00:04:20,029 --> 00:04:21,740 But it shouldn't be a surprise. 102 00:04:21,740 --> 00:04:26,930 Now in some cases, some people might not always 103 00:04:26,930 --> 00:04:30,360 read the [LAUGHS] the fine print. 104 00:04:30,360 --> 00:04:32,700 And then there might be a surprise there. 105 00:04:32,700 --> 00:04:35,470 But I don't hide those issues. 106 00:04:35,470 --> 00:04:40,580 As a matter of fact, I'm very upfront with my undergraduates 107 00:04:40,580 --> 00:04:46,710 about, in this course, we're going to learn about learning. 108 00:04:46,710 --> 00:04:49,921 And I'm more interested in learning than I am in teaching. 109 00:04:49,921 --> 00:04:51,420 And that doesn't make sense to a lot 110 00:04:51,420 --> 00:04:53,610 of people who are preparing to be teachers or think 111 00:04:53,610 --> 00:04:58,140 about teaching, because to frame it around learning 112 00:04:58,140 --> 00:05:00,540 suggests there's a shift from the agency of the teacher 113 00:05:00,540 --> 00:05:03,960 as the primary vehicle to the student. 114 00:05:03,960 --> 00:05:06,540 LARRY SUSSKIND: Do I need a first course 115 00:05:06,540 --> 00:05:09,090 where there's no interference with learning 116 00:05:09,090 --> 00:05:12,480 to draw in a basic way? 117 00:05:12,480 --> 00:05:16,800 And then after that, I can come to a second level drawing class 118 00:05:16,800 --> 00:05:19,530 where you can lay on all this other stuff. 119 00:05:19,530 --> 00:05:23,550 Or from the very beginning, in even the most 120 00:05:23,550 --> 00:05:26,700 rudimentary learning of the medium, 121 00:05:26,700 --> 00:05:32,430 are you already insinuating into the design of this curriculum 122 00:05:32,430 --> 00:05:34,150 this other set of concerns? 123 00:05:34,150 --> 00:05:36,480 I don't even have to know anything 124 00:05:36,480 --> 00:05:40,080 about the basics independent of this second concern 125 00:05:40,080 --> 00:05:42,780 to start learning this other set of things? 126 00:05:42,780 --> 00:05:43,860 STEPHEN CARPENTER: No. 127 00:05:43,860 --> 00:05:46,007 One can enter with the concerns. 128 00:05:46,007 --> 00:05:48,340 LARRY SUSSKIND: And that is your plan, most of the time? 129 00:05:48,340 --> 00:05:49,020 STEPHEN CARPENTER: All of the time. 130 00:05:49,020 --> 00:05:49,560 LARRY SUSSKIND: All the time. 131 00:05:49,560 --> 00:05:49,980 STEPHEN CARPENTER: All the time. 132 00:05:49,980 --> 00:05:51,063 LARRY SUSSKIND: All right. 133 00:05:51,063 --> 00:05:53,970 STEPHEN CARPENTER: So [CHUCKLES] we start with, let's say, 134 00:05:53,970 --> 00:05:56,130 social issues. 135 00:05:56,130 --> 00:06:01,410 Or let's say we're grounding the course within a social space. 136 00:06:01,410 --> 00:06:03,180 We all live in a social space. 137 00:06:03,180 --> 00:06:04,680 We all come with a set of concerns. 138 00:06:04,680 --> 00:06:07,920 We all come with a set of experiences. 139 00:06:07,920 --> 00:06:13,690 We come to the studio, and then return to wherever 140 00:06:13,690 --> 00:06:15,100 we were before that. 141 00:06:15,100 --> 00:06:17,890 142 00:06:17,890 --> 00:06:20,290 What we experience outside of the studio 143 00:06:20,290 --> 00:06:22,090 is content for art-making. 144 00:06:22,090 --> 00:06:25,580 It's content for engagement through art. 145 00:06:25,580 --> 00:06:28,750 So this is a shift where we think of-- 146 00:06:28,750 --> 00:06:32,020 147 00:06:32,020 --> 00:06:37,420 so if we take a step back to notions of curriculum, 148 00:06:37,420 --> 00:06:41,350 a very basic question in curriculum design, creating 149 00:06:41,350 --> 00:06:44,470 theory, curriculum development, I should say, 150 00:06:44,470 --> 00:06:48,130 is what is worth knowing? 151 00:06:48,130 --> 00:06:50,360 What content do we want students to learn? 152 00:06:50,360 --> 00:06:51,970 What is worth knowing? 153 00:06:51,970 --> 00:06:53,720 We might then look through the progression 154 00:06:53,720 --> 00:06:54,594 of curriculum theory. 155 00:06:54,594 --> 00:06:59,480 And then folks 30, 40 years ago start 156 00:06:59,480 --> 00:07:00,770 making a shift in [INAUDIBLE]. 157 00:07:00,770 --> 00:07:02,000 What is worthwhile? 158 00:07:02,000 --> 00:07:03,440 What matters? 159 00:07:03,440 --> 00:07:05,990 And what happens is there's a movement away 160 00:07:05,990 --> 00:07:08,990 from a more modernist notion of art 161 00:07:08,990 --> 00:07:12,530 as material-based to art as a reflection and engagement 162 00:07:12,530 --> 00:07:13,520 within the world. 163 00:07:13,520 --> 00:07:16,070 Not that it hadn't been that way before. 164 00:07:16,070 --> 00:07:20,290 But that the world becomes an art-making medium, 165 00:07:20,290 --> 00:07:25,490 and in a context that can be not only reflected and depicted, 166 00:07:25,490 --> 00:07:28,250 but can also be used as one of the materials 167 00:07:28,250 --> 00:07:30,470 within art-making practice. 168 00:07:30,470 --> 00:07:32,180 And that art practice can have some sort 169 00:07:32,180 --> 00:07:37,280 of engaged and intentional effect within that. 170 00:07:37,280 --> 00:07:41,630 So the kind of drawing class that you're mentioning 171 00:07:41,630 --> 00:07:44,540 or describing is not uncommon. 172 00:07:44,540 --> 00:07:47,180 These kinds of courses happen quite often. 173 00:07:47,180 --> 00:07:52,400 But their titles don't always reflect that. 174 00:07:52,400 --> 00:07:54,452 And many art schools are making some shifts. 175 00:07:54,452 --> 00:07:56,660 I had mentioned to a colleague a number of years ago, 176 00:07:56,660 --> 00:07:59,090 I said, we really need to change the names of some 177 00:07:59,090 --> 00:07:59,840 of these courses. 178 00:07:59,840 --> 00:08:05,450 Like, we should have Art with Larry, Art 505, Art with Larry, 179 00:08:05,450 --> 00:08:07,820 and then Art 507, Art with Steve. 180 00:08:07,820 --> 00:08:11,180 And they would have a sense of what that course was about. 181 00:08:11,180 --> 00:08:14,600 It it's not a materials-specific course, although it could be. 182 00:08:14,600 --> 00:08:19,580 But when we move the focus to issues, ideas, concerns, 183 00:08:19,580 --> 00:08:26,790 engagements, problems, ideas, that is an easier entry 184 00:08:26,790 --> 00:08:29,940 point for the kinds of pedagogy that we're talking about, 185 00:08:29,940 --> 00:08:34,370 that lend themselves to the sensibilities 186 00:08:34,370 --> 00:08:38,190 of disruptive practices, of social consciousness, 187 00:08:38,190 --> 00:08:40,140 of transformative learning. 188 00:08:40,140 --> 00:08:43,020 LARRY SUSSKIND: And what I've taken from your comments 189 00:08:43,020 --> 00:08:49,050 on occasion is that I ought to have that objective if I'm 190 00:08:49,050 --> 00:08:55,140 going to teach people about operating in their community. 191 00:08:55,140 --> 00:08:59,850 Don't just teach the method or the content. 192 00:08:59,850 --> 00:09:05,280 But get to this other level and build that into the curriculum. 193 00:09:05,280 --> 00:09:06,690 Take responsibility for that. 194 00:09:06,690 --> 00:09:07,770 Be explicit about it. 195 00:09:07,770 --> 00:09:11,684 Be accountable not just during but even before, 196 00:09:11,684 --> 00:09:14,100 although who knows whether they would have let me anywhere 197 00:09:14,100 --> 00:09:18,490 near the place if I had said at the beginning, 198 00:09:18,490 --> 00:09:20,865 our goal here is to bring about change in this community. 199 00:09:20,865 --> 00:09:23,323 STEPHEN CARPENTER: Well, it depends on your strategy there, 200 00:09:23,323 --> 00:09:24,006 right? 201 00:09:24,006 --> 00:09:25,380 So if we think about it this way. 202 00:09:25,380 --> 00:09:28,530 Now you didn't mention this in your story. 203 00:09:28,530 --> 00:09:30,600 But I would be interested in this component, 204 00:09:30,600 --> 00:09:33,390 because it also then gets back to one 205 00:09:33,390 --> 00:09:36,210 of those parts of the longer question you asked me 206 00:09:36,210 --> 00:09:38,970 earlier about my own students and my own teaching. 207 00:09:38,970 --> 00:09:41,660 208 00:09:41,660 --> 00:09:43,887 This is part of the social studies curriculum? 209 00:09:43,887 --> 00:09:44,720 LARRY SUSSKIND: Yes. 210 00:09:44,720 --> 00:09:46,370 STEPHEN CARPENTER: Officially, right? 211 00:09:46,370 --> 00:09:47,990 There should be some objectives. 212 00:09:47,990 --> 00:09:50,450 There should be some state standards or district standards 213 00:09:50,450 --> 00:09:53,630 or district objectives that many teachers 214 00:09:53,630 --> 00:09:55,045 consider to be the curriculum. 215 00:09:55,045 --> 00:09:56,420 And they teach to those standards 216 00:09:56,420 --> 00:09:58,040 or to those objectives. 217 00:09:58,040 --> 00:10:01,040 I teach my students, put those aside. 218 00:10:01,040 --> 00:10:04,310 Let's build on what you know, what is most important, 219 00:10:04,310 --> 00:10:06,664 build on your own politics, build on the-- 220 00:10:06,664 --> 00:10:09,080 let's start with the themes and the ideas and the concerns 221 00:10:09,080 --> 00:10:09,920 that you have. 222 00:10:09,920 --> 00:10:12,080 Build your curriculum around that, 223 00:10:12,080 --> 00:10:15,410 drawing on your art practice, your knowledge of art. 224 00:10:15,410 --> 00:10:17,570 And then let's compare. 225 00:10:17,570 --> 00:10:20,570 Let's use those standards or those objectives 226 00:10:20,570 --> 00:10:22,770 as an assessment. 227 00:10:22,770 --> 00:10:24,560 Now how many of those do we address? 228 00:10:24,560 --> 00:10:26,899 Usually we can cover all of those. 229 00:10:26,899 --> 00:10:28,440 But if we start the other way around, 230 00:10:28,440 --> 00:10:31,004 we start with learning Objective 6 and learning Objective 8, 231 00:10:31,004 --> 00:10:32,420 and this is the lesson, it's going 232 00:10:32,420 --> 00:10:33,676 to be really narrow and tight. 233 00:10:33,676 --> 00:10:36,050 And it doesn't-- and you're always going to be interested 234 00:10:36,050 --> 00:10:37,920 in we got to kick it back into the center. 235 00:10:37,920 --> 00:10:39,290 We got to make sure they're-- 236 00:10:39,290 --> 00:10:43,100 But in the way that you did it, I would imagine 237 00:10:43,100 --> 00:10:45,500 you could have said at any given moment, 238 00:10:45,500 --> 00:10:47,390 when you felt some resistance, well, 239 00:10:47,390 --> 00:10:49,700 if we look at the standards, we're 240 00:10:49,700 --> 00:10:52,940 covering XYZ, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 7, because-- 241 00:10:52,940 --> 00:10:54,540 and this is a way that one-- 242 00:10:54,540 --> 00:10:58,190 I'm not trying to say this is how you do a cover-up story. 243 00:10:58,190 --> 00:11:01,680 But this is how you can justify the social practice, 244 00:11:01,680 --> 00:11:06,030 social engagement, social consciousness pedagogy 245 00:11:06,030 --> 00:11:09,600 is you say, look, we're meeting all of the standards. 246 00:11:09,600 --> 00:11:11,747 As a matter of fact, if we were to do, let's say, 247 00:11:11,747 --> 00:11:13,830 three units like this over the course of the year, 248 00:11:13,830 --> 00:11:17,017 we could hit all of those objectives each time. 249 00:11:17,017 --> 00:11:18,850 If we do it in a more conventional approach, 250 00:11:18,850 --> 00:11:21,420 we might only address one of those objectives once 251 00:11:21,420 --> 00:11:24,180 or a few of them very superficially. 252 00:11:24,180 --> 00:11:30,060 So this becomes an even more potent way to make a case, 253 00:11:30,060 --> 00:11:31,975 because you're using the-- 254 00:11:31,975 --> 00:11:33,225 you were talking about values. 255 00:11:33,225 --> 00:11:34,740 LARRY SUSSKIND: Use the objectives against them. 256 00:11:34,740 --> 00:11:35,390 [LAUGHING] 257 00:11:35,390 --> 00:11:37,929 STEPHEN CARPENTER: Yes, I call it playing judo. 258 00:11:37,929 --> 00:11:40,470 You use your opponent's strength and speed to your advantage. 259 00:11:40,470 --> 00:11:40,980 LARRY SUSSKIND: Right. 260 00:11:40,980 --> 00:11:41,200 STEPHEN CARPENTER: Yeah. 261 00:11:41,200 --> 00:11:41,850 262 00:11:41,850 --> 00:11:43,933 LARRY SUSSKIND: When I teach graduate students who 263 00:11:43,933 --> 00:11:47,010 are in a professional degree program, all of this 264 00:11:47,010 --> 00:11:49,740 is easily talked about. 265 00:11:49,740 --> 00:11:52,980 It's layered into the social objectives, the social change 266 00:11:52,980 --> 00:11:54,620 impact. 267 00:11:54,620 --> 00:12:00,300 It's all easily included in the conversation. 268 00:12:00,300 --> 00:12:05,250 And there's explicit reflection on the social impact, 269 00:12:05,250 --> 00:12:09,190 social implications, social change, or who wins, 270 00:12:09,190 --> 00:12:12,790 who loses if you do this, and so on. 271 00:12:12,790 --> 00:12:15,060 It's just fascinating to me that you're 272 00:12:15,060 --> 00:12:19,200 teaching teachers or teaching kids in elementary school. 273 00:12:19,200 --> 00:12:21,840 And you're, in a sense, teaching the same thing. 274 00:12:21,840 --> 00:12:24,300 And you're not really modulating that much. 275 00:12:24,300 --> 00:12:27,870 You're still saying, there's biases here. 276 00:12:27,870 --> 00:12:28,915 Everyone has a bias. 277 00:12:28,915 --> 00:12:31,047 And you learn what you're including, 278 00:12:31,047 --> 00:12:32,130 what you're not including. 279 00:12:32,130 --> 00:12:35,670 And it sounds like you would say that to every level 280 00:12:35,670 --> 00:12:38,070 and to the teachers teaching at every level. 281 00:12:38,070 --> 00:12:42,330 And that was surprising to me, that all of this 282 00:12:42,330 --> 00:12:45,810 was as explicit in your curriculum 283 00:12:45,810 --> 00:12:51,500 in your teaching for K-12, as it is in teaching professionals. 284 00:12:51,500 --> 00:12:52,500 STEPHEN CARPENTER: Yeah. 285 00:12:52,500 --> 00:12:53,874 Let me give you a couple examples 286 00:12:53,874 --> 00:12:58,850 to say, yes, to support what you're saying. 287 00:12:58,850 --> 00:13:04,140 So there are a number of courses that one 288 00:13:04,140 --> 00:13:07,410 might find in an undergraduate or pre-service art education 289 00:13:07,410 --> 00:13:08,400 curriculum. 290 00:13:08,400 --> 00:13:14,141 You can imagine, there has to be a 101 or Art Education 101, 291 00:13:14,141 --> 00:13:14,640 Intro. 292 00:13:14,640 --> 00:13:16,290 And then there has to be the student 293 00:13:16,290 --> 00:13:17,496 teaching at the other end. 294 00:13:17,496 --> 00:13:19,620 And somewhere in there, there's a practicum course. 295 00:13:19,620 --> 00:13:21,520 Many places have methods courses. 296 00:13:21,520 --> 00:13:24,960 There's usually a history course or a cultural practices 297 00:13:24,960 --> 00:13:27,629 or a cultural foundations course. 298 00:13:27,629 --> 00:13:29,170 And there's also a curriculum course. 299 00:13:29,170 --> 00:13:34,270 And it depends on what institution where I'm teaching. 300 00:13:34,270 --> 00:13:36,450 But usually if it's the curriculum course 301 00:13:36,450 --> 00:13:39,070 or the cultural and social foundations 302 00:13:39,070 --> 00:13:43,870 course, the first day of class, this is how I start the class. 303 00:13:43,870 --> 00:13:47,360 Now we've known each other for almost two years now. 304 00:13:47,360 --> 00:13:49,342 And we've sat through these conversations. 305 00:13:49,342 --> 00:13:50,550 So you know what I look like. 306 00:13:50,550 --> 00:13:51,600 You know what I sound like. 307 00:13:51,600 --> 00:13:53,433 But imagine students who are just showing up 308 00:13:53,433 --> 00:13:55,660 to class for the first time. 309 00:13:55,660 --> 00:13:58,500 And this is how I start the class. 310 00:13:58,500 --> 00:14:00,070 (BRITISH ACCENT) Good afternoon. 311 00:14:00,070 --> 00:14:02,430 My name is Dr. Carpenter, and I'll be your instructor 312 00:14:02,430 --> 00:14:03,730 this semester. 313 00:14:03,730 --> 00:14:06,330 So for the next 16 weeks, we'll be 314 00:14:06,330 --> 00:14:11,610 engaging in curriculum and cultural and social issues 315 00:14:11,610 --> 00:14:13,420 related to art education. 316 00:14:13,420 --> 00:14:15,190 Now some of you come to the course 317 00:14:15,190 --> 00:14:16,797 as artists and others come as-- and I 318 00:14:16,797 --> 00:14:17,880 continue in just this way. 319 00:14:17,880 --> 00:14:20,196 And we start to read the syllabus. 320 00:14:20,196 --> 00:14:22,070 And at a certain point, I just can't do this. 321 00:14:22,070 --> 00:14:25,810 I cannot find different regions of the UK to move around 322 00:14:25,810 --> 00:14:27,850 my accent. 323 00:14:27,850 --> 00:14:30,400 And certain students start saying, look. 324 00:14:30,400 --> 00:14:31,990 And then I say, (NO ACCENT) well, now 325 00:14:31,990 --> 00:14:33,010 the next thing that we're going to do, 326 00:14:33,010 --> 00:14:34,343 and I change my voice like this. 327 00:14:34,343 --> 00:14:36,860 And they're looking at me like, oh, my goodness. 328 00:14:36,860 --> 00:14:37,980 What's going on? 329 00:14:37,980 --> 00:14:40,820 And I stop them right there. 330 00:14:40,820 --> 00:14:44,392 This is the first day of class, Larry. 331 00:14:44,392 --> 00:14:46,320 You haven't blinked in a minute. 332 00:14:46,320 --> 00:14:48,930 And your mouth is wide open, and you're giggling. 333 00:14:48,930 --> 00:14:50,640 And what's going on here? 334 00:14:50,640 --> 00:14:51,600 And I make them talk. 335 00:14:51,600 --> 00:14:52,410 I say, what's up? 336 00:14:52,410 --> 00:14:54,120 Well, you sound different. 337 00:14:54,120 --> 00:14:55,610 I sound different than what? 338 00:14:55,610 --> 00:14:57,550 Well, you sound different than you did before. 339 00:14:57,550 --> 00:14:58,570 Well, what did I sound like before? 340 00:14:58,570 --> 00:15:00,000 Well, you sounded-- you had an accent. 341 00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:00,500 Oh, I did? 342 00:15:00,500 --> 00:15:01,450 What kind of accent? 343 00:15:01,450 --> 00:15:05,530 I say, well, if I'm someplace else, I have an accent there. 344 00:15:05,530 --> 00:15:07,500 But when I'm home, I don't have an accent. 345 00:15:07,500 --> 00:15:10,260 People who sounded like that at home don't have an accent. 346 00:15:10,260 --> 00:15:11,920 It's only when they leave. 347 00:15:11,920 --> 00:15:13,340 And so what else is different? 348 00:15:13,340 --> 00:15:15,570 And they also end up talking about, well-- 349 00:15:15,570 --> 00:15:18,090 I move them to the space to say, faces 350 00:15:18,090 --> 00:15:21,210 that look like mine, in most people's conception, 351 00:15:21,210 --> 00:15:24,870 at least in the institutions where I teach, 352 00:15:24,870 --> 00:15:27,720 don't sound like that. 353 00:15:27,720 --> 00:15:30,990 Or the conception of someone with an accent like that 354 00:15:30,990 --> 00:15:32,400 looks different than I do. 355 00:15:32,400 --> 00:15:35,190 But I put it on the table, and I draw attention 356 00:15:35,190 --> 00:15:37,680 to what this pigmentation looks like 357 00:15:37,680 --> 00:15:41,050 and what it sounds like (BRITISH ACCENT) to talk like this. 358 00:15:41,050 --> 00:15:43,110 Or if I talk like this or have a-- 359 00:15:43,110 --> 00:15:47,712 so the idea of how accents inform and influence-- 360 00:15:47,712 --> 00:15:48,670 LARRY SUSSKIND: Biases. 361 00:15:48,670 --> 00:15:49,470 STEPHEN CARPENTER: --biases. 362 00:15:49,470 --> 00:15:49,990 That's it. 363 00:15:49,990 --> 00:15:51,400 Day one. 364 00:15:51,400 --> 00:15:55,270 I say, so how do you sound when you talk to your students? 365 00:15:55,270 --> 00:15:58,060 How does your language-- how does the way you dress 366 00:15:58,060 --> 00:15:59,740 speak to your students? 367 00:15:59,740 --> 00:16:03,010 And also, how do you respond to your students 368 00:16:03,010 --> 00:16:05,330 based on what they sound like and what they-- 369 00:16:05,330 --> 00:16:07,324 day one. 370 00:16:07,324 --> 00:16:08,740 LARRY SUSSKIND: And you wouldn't-- 371 00:16:08,740 --> 00:16:14,470 I mean, that's not keyed to the age or level of the students. 372 00:16:14,470 --> 00:16:15,590 STEPHEN CARPENTER: Yeah. 373 00:16:15,590 --> 00:16:19,400 So this becomes part of what it means to be a teacher. 374 00:16:19,400 --> 00:16:22,240 So if you're interested in teaching learners, 375 00:16:22,240 --> 00:16:25,845 you have multiple identities in that space. 376 00:16:25,845 --> 00:16:27,970 But if you're going to assume that all learners are 377 00:16:27,970 --> 00:16:29,800 learners are learners, it's much easier. 378 00:16:29,800 --> 00:16:31,600 You just deliver stuff and expect it 379 00:16:31,600 --> 00:16:32,950 to come back in the same way. 380 00:16:32,950 --> 00:16:35,200 It's not messy at all. 381 00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:43,260 For the younger ones, I'm also spending this year 382 00:16:43,260 --> 00:16:45,480 as an artist and learner in residence 383 00:16:45,480 --> 00:16:48,040 at an elementary school in my town. 384 00:16:48,040 --> 00:16:52,590 So I visit a class of first graders 385 00:16:52,590 --> 00:16:53,640 just about every Friday. 386 00:16:53,640 --> 00:16:56,254 And then I'm working with the entire third grade team. 387 00:16:56,254 --> 00:16:57,420 LARRY SUSSKIND: [INAUDIBLE]. 388 00:16:57,420 --> 00:16:58,230 STEPHEN CARPENTER: No, that's OK. 389 00:16:58,230 --> 00:16:58,730 Yeah. 390 00:16:58,730 --> 00:17:01,620 Well, it's funny you say that, because one 391 00:17:01,620 --> 00:17:04,890 of the things I've been doing with the third graders 392 00:17:04,890 --> 00:17:06,869 is looking at the water crisis. 393 00:17:06,869 --> 00:17:10,890 And I know some of you are interested in the global water 394 00:17:10,890 --> 00:17:12,700 crisis. 395 00:17:12,700 --> 00:17:16,319 So in third grade, Africa is one of their social studies units. 396 00:17:16,319 --> 00:17:19,710 It worked out really quite well in connection 397 00:17:19,710 --> 00:17:22,950 with the African diaspora water curriculum 398 00:17:22,950 --> 00:17:25,349 that I've been working on that was funded by the Africana 399 00:17:25,349 --> 00:17:27,970 Research Center at Penn State. 400 00:17:27,970 --> 00:17:36,700 And so to talk to them about the water crisis in Africa, 401 00:17:36,700 --> 00:17:39,790 there's a moment in which, for some learners 402 00:17:39,790 --> 00:17:43,360 and for some teachers, there could be a moment where 403 00:17:43,360 --> 00:17:46,360 you equate Africa, no water. 404 00:17:46,360 --> 00:17:50,120 All Africans have no water. 405 00:17:50,120 --> 00:17:51,950 Right? 406 00:17:51,950 --> 00:17:54,750 I have to call that out. 407 00:17:54,750 --> 00:17:56,870 There's also a moment where-- 408 00:17:56,870 --> 00:18:00,770 and this happens beyond third grade-- 409 00:18:00,770 --> 00:18:02,300 it happens in the news. 410 00:18:02,300 --> 00:18:04,580 It happens in TV shows. 411 00:18:04,580 --> 00:18:06,440 It happens in textbooks. 412 00:18:06,440 --> 00:18:08,500 It happens in daily conversation, 413 00:18:08,500 --> 00:18:12,560 where people will say, I'm going on a trip, multiple places. 414 00:18:12,560 --> 00:18:14,180 I'm going to fly to France. 415 00:18:14,180 --> 00:18:17,581 And I'm going to go to Germany, and I'm going to go to Africa. 416 00:18:17,581 --> 00:18:18,080 Really? 417 00:18:18,080 --> 00:18:20,690 You're going to go to a country, country, continent, 418 00:18:20,690 --> 00:18:23,850 where we frame Africa as an entire country. 419 00:18:23,850 --> 00:18:27,920 And for those third graders to learn that, 420 00:18:27,920 --> 00:18:30,930 to learn what I mean by that, to learn that Africa is a country? 421 00:18:30,930 --> 00:18:36,470 No, Africa is one continent made up of multiple countries. 422 00:18:36,470 --> 00:18:39,880 Somehow, that doesn't always happen. 423 00:18:39,880 --> 00:18:43,340 And so the message then in society 424 00:18:43,340 --> 00:18:45,800 is one that needs to be attended to. 425 00:18:45,800 --> 00:18:47,450 I mean, it certainly then lends itself 426 00:18:47,450 --> 00:18:52,250 to biases or misunderstandings about the continent. 427 00:18:52,250 --> 00:18:54,990 So I make it clear to the third graders. 428 00:18:54,990 --> 00:18:56,480 But this how I do it. 429 00:18:56,480 --> 00:18:58,370 And I put a map of Africa and say, 430 00:18:58,370 --> 00:19:00,170 so here's the country of Africa. 431 00:19:00,170 --> 00:19:01,730 And we're going to talk-- no! 432 00:19:01,730 --> 00:19:03,710 What do you mean it's not-- 433 00:19:03,710 --> 00:19:06,470 with a little bit of joking, with a little teasing, 434 00:19:06,470 --> 00:19:07,210 to make sure. 435 00:19:07,210 --> 00:19:11,030 And I enable them and allow them to make explicit 436 00:19:11,030 --> 00:19:12,760 what they're hearing. 437 00:19:12,760 --> 00:19:15,950 And to continue to do that is quite important. 438 00:19:15,950 --> 00:19:17,820 439 00:19:17,820 --> 00:19:21,250 There's a book by Walter Bateman. 440 00:19:21,250 --> 00:19:24,379 He wrote, I think, after he retired 441 00:19:24,379 --> 00:19:25,670 from the College of Education-- 442 00:19:25,670 --> 00:19:27,461 I think it was at University of Minnesota-- 443 00:19:27,461 --> 00:19:29,770 it's called Teaching Through Inquiry. 444 00:19:29,770 --> 00:19:32,260 And one of the strategies that he 445 00:19:32,260 --> 00:19:36,160 uses that I borrow, or he writes about in this book, 446 00:19:36,160 --> 00:19:38,546 is based on the Socratic method. 447 00:19:38,546 --> 00:19:40,420 But it's also based in this notion of inquiry 448 00:19:40,420 --> 00:19:43,900 through the process of asking questions one can reveal. 449 00:19:43,900 --> 00:19:46,510 But to make sure students are paying attention, 450 00:19:46,510 --> 00:19:50,260 you can provide information as factual, factual, not factual, 451 00:19:50,260 --> 00:19:52,840 factual, and see when and how they pick up on it. 452 00:19:52,840 --> 00:19:55,030 And I love doing that with the younger kids. 453 00:19:55,030 --> 00:19:56,960 Or when it's time to share-- 454 00:19:56,960 --> 00:19:58,420 so then another component is I've 455 00:19:58,420 --> 00:20:04,180 been sharing with the students design challenges that 456 00:20:04,180 --> 00:20:08,650 are drawn directly from lack of adequate access 457 00:20:08,650 --> 00:20:11,740 to water in different countries in Africa, 458 00:20:11,740 --> 00:20:15,590 as exemplified from different places. 459 00:20:15,590 --> 00:20:18,970 So whether it's the water filter or pumping water or piping 460 00:20:18,970 --> 00:20:23,680 water or transporting water or collecting water out of the air 461 00:20:23,680 --> 00:20:25,840 through the moisture. 462 00:20:25,840 --> 00:20:29,050 So I say, look, here's an example. 463 00:20:29,050 --> 00:20:32,230 Imagine you live in a rural town. 464 00:20:32,230 --> 00:20:36,340 And you have an amazing access to water, 465 00:20:36,340 --> 00:20:40,960 but it's filled with disease and mosquito larvae and all this. 466 00:20:40,960 --> 00:20:43,420 I'd like you to design a way to filter that water. 467 00:20:43,420 --> 00:20:45,130 But you can't use any electricity. 468 00:20:45,130 --> 00:20:49,810 And you can't use any oil or any gas, 469 00:20:49,810 --> 00:20:58,880 no motive of motion or power, other than the human body. 470 00:20:58,880 --> 00:21:01,520 Divide into a group of two, three, four and draw this. 471 00:21:01,520 --> 00:21:02,780 And I give them 10 minutes. 472 00:21:02,780 --> 00:21:04,414 These are eight- and nine-year-olds. 473 00:21:04,414 --> 00:21:05,830 And they go away and they draw it. 474 00:21:05,830 --> 00:21:07,663 And then when they share these things-- this 475 00:21:07,663 --> 00:21:10,360 the same challenge that you give that designers are dealing 476 00:21:10,360 --> 00:21:12,471 with in the world right now. 477 00:21:12,471 --> 00:21:13,720 Their drawings are incredible. 478 00:21:13,720 --> 00:21:16,345 Their design-- the conversations they're having are incredible. 479 00:21:16,345 --> 00:21:20,182 But the way frame it is, imagine you lived in a town, 480 00:21:20,182 --> 00:21:20,890 blah, blah, blah. 481 00:21:20,890 --> 00:21:23,545 I don't say, imagine you lived in this African village. 482 00:21:23,545 --> 00:21:26,160 483 00:21:26,160 --> 00:21:29,550 And to take it away from that-- 484 00:21:29,550 --> 00:21:31,740 although they are studying Africa, 485 00:21:31,740 --> 00:21:35,187 I take it away from that and make it a more generic space 486 00:21:35,187 --> 00:21:36,270 for them to think through. 487 00:21:36,270 --> 00:21:38,577 Then I say, well, in certain countries in Africa, 488 00:21:38,577 --> 00:21:41,160 this is the case, just like in certain states in this country, 489 00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:43,420 just like in other countries in the world. 490 00:21:43,420 --> 00:21:46,050 So I don't just leave it there. 491 00:21:46,050 --> 00:21:47,580 Making it explicit with the students 492 00:21:47,580 --> 00:21:49,720 is very, very important. 493 00:21:49,720 --> 00:21:50,807 And they get it. 494 00:21:50,807 --> 00:21:52,390 LARRY SUSSKIND: I'm still on this idea 495 00:21:52,390 --> 00:21:56,620 that there's this special quality about being a socially 496 00:21:56,620 --> 00:22:00,190 disruptive artist or being a teacher who's trying 497 00:22:00,190 --> 00:22:02,290 to take this into account. 498 00:22:02,290 --> 00:22:04,990 And all the other things that we try 499 00:22:04,990 --> 00:22:07,600 to help people get better at teaching 500 00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:10,690 or better at doing something doesn't 501 00:22:10,690 --> 00:22:14,080 get at this core quality. 502 00:22:14,080 --> 00:22:18,610 I think it is different and special and scary and other 503 00:22:18,610 --> 00:22:19,730 things. 504 00:22:19,730 --> 00:22:22,146 STEPHEN CARPENTER: Yeah, I think it's all of those things. 505 00:22:22,146 --> 00:22:25,236 I also-- maybe you recall, I said, 506 00:22:25,236 --> 00:22:26,860 when I'm doing the water fountain work, 507 00:22:26,860 --> 00:22:28,590 I still get anxious to approach people. 508 00:22:28,590 --> 00:22:30,840 LARRY SUSSKIND: You don't know who's going to haul off 509 00:22:30,840 --> 00:22:31,630 and belt you. 510 00:22:31,630 --> 00:22:33,213 STEPHEN CARPENTER: They might do this. 511 00:22:33,213 --> 00:22:35,580 Watching all these YouTube videos tells me other people, 512 00:22:35,580 --> 00:22:38,190 this happens to folks all the time. 513 00:22:38,190 --> 00:22:42,800 But it's the social engagement that 514 00:22:42,800 --> 00:22:46,340 is an important part of the materiality of that work, 515 00:22:46,340 --> 00:22:49,250 just like clay is an important material part of ceramics, 516 00:22:49,250 --> 00:22:51,050 obviously. 517 00:22:51,050 --> 00:22:57,979 And not everybody is as able with all media 518 00:22:57,979 --> 00:23:00,020 as they would like to be or teaching and learning 519 00:23:00,020 --> 00:23:00,780 certain content. 520 00:23:00,780 --> 00:23:03,115 So that's just an understanding. 521 00:23:03,115 --> 00:23:04,490 LARRY SUSSKIND: Yeah, but this is 522 00:23:04,490 --> 00:23:07,550 different in kind than learning another medium. 523 00:23:07,550 --> 00:23:09,740 I'm terrible, terrible, terrible at watercolor. 524 00:23:09,740 --> 00:23:12,560 But watch me go when I do something else. 525 00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:14,219 OK, I can get better at it. 526 00:23:14,219 --> 00:23:15,760 You can teach me to get better at it. 527 00:23:15,760 --> 00:23:17,900 It isn't I'm not great at it. 528 00:23:17,900 --> 00:23:19,070 I've never been good at it. 529 00:23:19,070 --> 00:23:23,280 But OK, if I put enough effort in and you give me coaching, 530 00:23:23,280 --> 00:23:26,330 and I try it, and I watch it, I'll get better. 531 00:23:26,330 --> 00:23:29,870 I just have a sense that being ready to commit 532 00:23:29,870 --> 00:23:35,540 to engage in public spaces in something aimed at changing 533 00:23:35,540 --> 00:23:38,120 the way people think about things that are challenging 534 00:23:38,120 --> 00:23:42,020 their identity is not something that you can build 535 00:23:42,020 --> 00:23:44,610 the capacity in the same way. 536 00:23:44,610 --> 00:23:46,820 STEPHEN CARPENTER: So this is how 537 00:23:46,820 --> 00:23:49,724 I want to answer this question in another way, 538 00:23:49,724 --> 00:23:51,140 because I think we're going around 539 00:23:51,140 --> 00:23:52,348 on this on the same question. 540 00:23:52,348 --> 00:23:56,450 And I appreciate the provocations. 541 00:23:56,450 --> 00:23:59,810 So if I think about the most recent semester where 542 00:23:59,810 --> 00:24:02,990 I taught the participatory inquiry course, a range 543 00:24:02,990 --> 00:24:05,450 of students in this course-- 544 00:24:05,450 --> 00:24:09,332 one student from I believe she's in sociology 545 00:24:09,332 --> 00:24:10,790 or comparative literature, perhaps. 546 00:24:10,790 --> 00:24:17,990 Comparative literature-- was not about to perform, 547 00:24:17,990 --> 00:24:19,460 to do the reading in public. 548 00:24:19,460 --> 00:24:24,050 But was very interested in graphic novels, 549 00:24:24,050 --> 00:24:27,230 comics, visual representation. 550 00:24:27,230 --> 00:24:29,570 And the issue she was interested in 551 00:24:29,570 --> 00:24:35,190 was this conversation on campus about unionizing graduate 552 00:24:35,190 --> 00:24:35,690 students. 553 00:24:35,690 --> 00:24:38,299 554 00:24:38,299 --> 00:24:40,090 And so I was kind of concerned about, well, 555 00:24:40,090 --> 00:24:45,130 how do I perform unionizing and the political issues there. 556 00:24:45,130 --> 00:24:47,380 And so we talked about her interest 557 00:24:47,380 --> 00:24:48,790 in graphic novels and comics. 558 00:24:48,790 --> 00:24:51,940 And what she ended up doing was, essentially, it 559 00:24:51,940 --> 00:24:55,810 was a survey of sorts asking people 560 00:24:55,810 --> 00:24:58,480 to provide her with feedback, their perspective 561 00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:02,140 on this issue, on unionization of grad students, 562 00:25:02,140 --> 00:25:05,670 and with little drop boxes where they could-- 563 00:25:05,670 --> 00:25:08,950 it's almost like those suggestion boxes. 564 00:25:08,950 --> 00:25:10,720 And she put them in strategic places, 565 00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:15,640 collected them, and then made the graphic visual 566 00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:18,710 representation depictions, almost like cartoon 567 00:25:18,710 --> 00:25:20,020 on these squares, panels. 568 00:25:20,020 --> 00:25:25,780 And then with the speech bubbles as was 569 00:25:25,780 --> 00:25:28,540 the content from the anonymous suggestions 570 00:25:28,540 --> 00:25:31,210 that people gave her. 571 00:25:31,210 --> 00:25:33,910 And then she would post these on bulletin boards. 572 00:25:33,910 --> 00:25:37,600 So you could see this public display of comments. 573 00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:39,260 She physically put this in the world. 574 00:25:39,260 --> 00:25:41,526 But she didn't physically put herself in the world. 575 00:25:41,526 --> 00:25:42,400 Does that make sense? 576 00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:42,550 LARRY SUSSKIND: Yeah. 577 00:25:42,550 --> 00:25:44,480 STEPHEN CARPENTER: So we're playing to strengths that way. 578 00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:46,074 And that's why the particulars of what 579 00:25:46,074 --> 00:25:47,740 she was about when she was interested in 580 00:25:47,740 --> 00:25:50,410 and what she was capable, that's what that went. 581 00:25:50,410 --> 00:25:54,850 Another student who was in architecture 582 00:25:54,850 --> 00:25:57,964 was interested in-- 583 00:25:57,964 --> 00:25:59,380 so on our campus, I don't know how 584 00:25:59,380 --> 00:26:02,830 it happens around Cambridge and around MIT, 585 00:26:02,830 --> 00:26:06,640 but we have different representatives 586 00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:11,710 from different religions or different beliefs 587 00:26:11,710 --> 00:26:14,739 who will set up in different parts of campus. 588 00:26:14,739 --> 00:26:16,030 And they're allowed to do that. 589 00:26:16,030 --> 00:26:17,710 And they'll pass out literature. 590 00:26:17,710 --> 00:26:20,050 And they'll engage people in conversation. 591 00:26:20,050 --> 00:26:22,390 And so what this one student did was, 592 00:26:22,390 --> 00:26:24,410 he wanted to emulate their-- 593 00:26:24,410 --> 00:26:28,970 he wanted to borrow their mode of their presentation, 594 00:26:28,970 --> 00:26:30,160 but not their message. 595 00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:32,860 He wanted to actually substitute out 596 00:26:32,860 --> 00:26:35,920 their message of religion and spirituality 597 00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:39,070 with concepts from architecture. 598 00:26:39,070 --> 00:26:40,654 And so he [CHUCKLES]-- 599 00:26:40,654 --> 00:26:42,320 LARRY SUSSKIND: Sounds a little strange. 600 00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:43,569 STEPHEN CARPENTER: It is very. 601 00:26:43,569 --> 00:26:45,817 It was, yeah, exactly. 602 00:26:45,817 --> 00:26:47,650 So imagine, you're walking down the sidewalk 603 00:26:47,650 --> 00:26:51,100 and someone says, oh, may I talk to you about being saved or may 604 00:26:51,100 --> 00:26:54,670 I talk to you about spiritual enlightenment or whatever? 605 00:26:54,670 --> 00:26:57,600 And then instead of doing that, you say, 606 00:26:57,600 --> 00:26:59,460 well, do you have a moment, because I'd 607 00:26:59,460 --> 00:27:02,140 like to talk to you about the differences between concrete 608 00:27:02,140 --> 00:27:05,239 and cement and their uses in architectural structures. 609 00:27:05,239 --> 00:27:06,030 I'm thinking, what? 610 00:27:06,030 --> 00:27:07,020 But he's dressed as if-- 611 00:27:07,020 --> 00:27:08,620 LARRY SUSSKIND: It sounds like a really MIT thing. 612 00:27:08,620 --> 00:27:08,850 STEPHEN CARPENTER: Right? 613 00:27:08,850 --> 00:27:09,349 [LAUGHTER] 614 00:27:09,349 --> 00:27:12,370 But he's dressed as someone that you 615 00:27:12,370 --> 00:27:15,400 might see on campus in the guise of a spiritual 616 00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:17,390 or a religious practice. 617 00:27:17,390 --> 00:27:21,130 So in that way, he felt very comfortable doing that. 618 00:27:21,130 --> 00:27:24,670 But it was about, well, how do you take on that persona 619 00:27:24,670 --> 00:27:25,307 without-- 620 00:27:25,307 --> 00:27:26,640 he wasn't trying to [INAUDIBLE]. 621 00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:32,580 He was trying to use that visual as momentum. 622 00:27:32,580 --> 00:27:34,580 LARRY SUSSKIND: Until you play to his strength-- 623 00:27:34,580 --> 00:27:36,310 STEPHEN CARPENTER: You play to their strengths. 624 00:27:36,310 --> 00:27:37,620 LARRY SUSSKIND: There a lot of ways of doing this. 625 00:27:37,620 --> 00:27:38,950 You're playing to people's strengths. 626 00:27:38,950 --> 00:27:39,740 STEPHEN CARPENTER: That's what it's about. 627 00:27:39,740 --> 00:27:40,240 Yeah. 628 00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:41,890 LARRY SUSSKIND: I like that. 629 00:27:41,890 --> 00:27:51,371