1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:00,690 2 00:00:00,690 --> 00:00:02,231 STEPHEN CARPENTER: I want to show you 3 00:00:02,231 --> 00:00:05,260 a picture, an image that I created collaboratively 4 00:00:05,260 --> 00:00:06,920 this morning. 5 00:00:06,920 --> 00:00:10,560 So as you see, this was tagged Danbury, Connecticut. 6 00:00:10,560 --> 00:00:13,140 So that's just down the road. 7 00:00:13,140 --> 00:00:16,000 And since I posted it this morning, six hours ago, 8 00:00:16,000 --> 00:00:17,766 18 people have liked it. 9 00:00:17,766 --> 00:00:19,640 They haven't told me what they like about it, 10 00:00:19,640 --> 00:00:21,100 but they've liked it. 11 00:00:21,100 --> 00:00:24,650 And I added some context there. 12 00:00:24,650 --> 00:00:28,750 My name, or my handle is there-- @bscarpenterii-- 13 00:00:28,750 --> 00:00:32,500 "Double Water Fountains," Danbury, Connecticut, 2017. 14 00:00:32,500 --> 00:00:33,940 Then there's some hashtags-- 15 00:00:33,940 --> 00:00:37,540 #doubletaking, #troublemaking. 16 00:00:37,540 --> 00:00:41,230 And then I've tagged some other folks 17 00:00:41,230 --> 00:00:45,490 who I follow or follow me, who I thought might be interested. 18 00:00:45,490 --> 00:00:48,760 All three of them happen to be connected to MIT. 19 00:00:48,760 --> 00:00:54,370 So this image is, in many ways, just a black and white 20 00:00:54,370 --> 00:00:59,500 Instagram photograph that I also posted to my Tumblr account 21 00:00:59,500 --> 00:01:01,730 and I posted to my Twitter account. 22 00:01:01,730 --> 00:01:03,700 This is a practice people do quite often. 23 00:01:03,700 --> 00:01:11,230 But this is a photograph that originated and continues 24 00:01:11,230 --> 00:01:16,330 to exist within a conversation for me, with an existing 25 00:01:16,330 --> 00:01:19,210 photograph, specifically, other similar photographs, 26 00:01:19,210 --> 00:01:22,192 as well as it sits within a conversation 27 00:01:22,192 --> 00:01:23,650 with other people-- as you can see, 28 00:01:23,650 --> 00:01:25,930 at least 18 people who like it but haven't 29 00:01:25,930 --> 00:01:28,630 commented on why they like it. 30 00:01:28,630 --> 00:01:32,080 This photograph was originally taken as a color photograph, 31 00:01:32,080 --> 00:01:34,080 using this phone. 32 00:01:34,080 --> 00:01:38,905 I set the setting from portrait and landscape to square, 33 00:01:38,905 --> 00:01:40,030 because we can do that now. 34 00:01:40,030 --> 00:01:41,530 We have these options. 35 00:01:41,530 --> 00:01:45,010 And then once the photograph was taken, 36 00:01:45,010 --> 00:01:47,530 I put it through a series of filters in Instagram 37 00:01:47,530 --> 00:01:51,040 to turn it into this black and white photograph. 38 00:01:51,040 --> 00:01:54,760 Now, as you can probably notice, I most likely 39 00:01:54,760 --> 00:01:58,280 didn't shoot this on my own, unless I had a tripod and then 40 00:01:58,280 --> 00:02:00,190 a timer that I set. 41 00:02:00,190 --> 00:02:03,400 So one might assume that someone else actually 42 00:02:03,400 --> 00:02:04,340 took the photograph. 43 00:02:04,340 --> 00:02:05,500 And that's what happened. 44 00:02:05,500 --> 00:02:07,780 This is the most recent photograph in a series-- 45 00:02:07,780 --> 00:02:12,430 I believe I'm at or beyond 100 of these in the past three 46 00:02:12,430 --> 00:02:14,020 or four years-- 47 00:02:14,020 --> 00:02:17,260 in which, if I'm in a public space 48 00:02:17,260 --> 00:02:21,000 and I see a double water fountain 49 00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:24,699 and there's someone nearby, I'll ask them-- excuse me. 50 00:02:24,699 --> 00:02:25,740 Would you give me a hand? 51 00:02:25,740 --> 00:02:27,000 I'm an artist. 52 00:02:27,000 --> 00:02:30,150 And I take photographs of double water fountains. 53 00:02:30,150 --> 00:02:32,400 Would you mind taking a picture of me? 54 00:02:32,400 --> 00:02:35,042 I'm going to drink out of the fountain. 55 00:02:35,042 --> 00:02:36,750 And I'd like you to take a picture of me. 56 00:02:36,750 --> 00:02:39,480 Make sure both fountains and my body are in the photograph, 57 00:02:39,480 --> 00:02:40,345 please. 58 00:02:40,345 --> 00:02:41,970 That's all the instruction I give them. 59 00:02:41,970 --> 00:02:44,610 There's no composition 101. 60 00:02:44,610 --> 00:02:48,592 There's no depth of field lesson. 61 00:02:48,592 --> 00:02:49,800 And then they take a picture. 62 00:02:49,800 --> 00:02:53,100 And I drink the water during the entire time 63 00:02:53,100 --> 00:02:55,690 they're setting up and moving their body and in and out. 64 00:02:55,690 --> 00:02:58,680 And sometimes it takes a couple of seconds. 65 00:02:58,680 --> 00:03:02,430 Sometimes it takes what feels like four or five days. 66 00:03:02,430 --> 00:03:04,550 You know, you've had this experience, right? 67 00:03:04,550 --> 00:03:06,300 And then what happens when you ask someone 68 00:03:06,300 --> 00:03:09,932 to take a photo of you using your camera or your phone? 69 00:03:09,932 --> 00:03:11,640 They turn around and they show it to you. 70 00:03:11,640 --> 00:03:14,190 We can do that with digital photographs now. 71 00:03:14,190 --> 00:03:15,821 How is that? 72 00:03:15,821 --> 00:03:17,070 And I look at it, and say, oh. 73 00:03:17,070 --> 00:03:19,330 Oh, that's quite nice. 74 00:03:19,330 --> 00:03:22,020 And then if they have time, if they're not rushing off-- oh, 75 00:03:22,020 --> 00:03:23,940 I have to run-- 76 00:03:23,940 --> 00:03:27,550 well, would you mind looking at another photograph? 77 00:03:27,550 --> 00:03:29,100 And most of the time they say, yeah. 78 00:03:29,100 --> 00:03:31,140 I'll look at the other photograph. 79 00:03:31,140 --> 00:03:33,510 And it's that other photograph that I show them 80 00:03:33,510 --> 00:03:37,890 that inspired me to start taking these photographs. 81 00:03:37,890 --> 00:03:41,260 So the other photograph I show them is this one. 82 00:03:41,260 --> 00:03:43,890 This is also a black and white photograph. 83 00:03:43,890 --> 00:03:47,022 It was not taken with a digital phone. 84 00:03:47,022 --> 00:03:48,480 It was actually taken with a camera 85 00:03:48,480 --> 00:03:52,910 that uses this interesting technology called film. 86 00:03:52,910 --> 00:03:55,470 A lot of people who use these machines 87 00:03:55,470 --> 00:03:57,060 don't actually know what film is. 88 00:03:57,060 --> 00:04:03,900 And this photograph was taken in 1950 by Elliot Erwitt. 89 00:04:03,900 --> 00:04:08,340 It was taken in South Carolina. 90 00:04:08,340 --> 00:04:13,530 And this photograph shows a gentleman 91 00:04:13,530 --> 00:04:18,630 wearing a hat, drinking out of one of two water fountains. 92 00:04:18,630 --> 00:04:22,710 The water fountains each have labels. 93 00:04:22,710 --> 00:04:27,420 And they, although, are situated as double water fountains, 94 00:04:27,420 --> 00:04:30,870 or side-by-side fountains, they are, essentially, 95 00:04:30,870 --> 00:04:34,020 constructed for different audiences and different users. 96 00:04:34,020 --> 00:04:36,360 And we might know that because of the labels 97 00:04:36,360 --> 00:04:38,262 that are above them. 98 00:04:38,262 --> 00:04:39,970 This photograph, double water fountains-- 99 00:04:39,970 --> 00:04:42,261 or, it's actually called "Segregated Water Fountains"-- 100 00:04:42,261 --> 00:04:47,160 is one of a few that Erwitt took in the '50s. 101 00:04:47,160 --> 00:04:50,520 He used to take-- 102 00:04:50,520 --> 00:04:53,070 he was known as a street photographer 103 00:04:53,070 --> 00:04:58,890 at that time, when he was taking photographs, and capturing just 104 00:04:58,890 --> 00:05:04,290 some basic, typical scenes that would happen in daily life. 105 00:05:04,290 --> 00:05:07,050 So it's this photograph that I had probably seen, or one 106 00:05:07,050 --> 00:05:09,370 of them similar to it, years and years ago. 107 00:05:09,370 --> 00:05:11,812 I don't remember the first time I saw it. 108 00:05:11,812 --> 00:05:14,020 And you know how images come in and out of your life, 109 00:05:14,020 --> 00:05:15,820 or people come in and out, or stories come in and out? 110 00:05:15,820 --> 00:05:17,236 Well, this one did the same thing. 111 00:05:17,236 --> 00:05:20,290 But about 10 years ago, 15 years ago, 112 00:05:20,290 --> 00:05:24,870 maybe, when I started wearing hats like this, in part because 113 00:05:24,870 --> 00:05:27,120 I just thought they looked pretty interesting 114 00:05:27,120 --> 00:05:30,210 and they reminded me of my grandfather, whose 115 00:05:30,210 --> 00:05:33,460 first name is also my father's first name-- 116 00:05:33,460 --> 00:05:40,840 it's also my first name, so there's that connection there. 117 00:05:40,840 --> 00:05:43,740 And as I looked at this photograph 118 00:05:43,740 --> 00:05:46,650 shortly after I started wearing these hats, 119 00:05:46,650 --> 00:05:49,074 I started to see these photographs differently, 120 00:05:49,074 --> 00:05:51,240 because as I looked more closely at that photograph, 121 00:05:51,240 --> 00:05:54,040 I started to see myself in that photograph, 122 00:05:54,040 --> 00:05:58,720 and wonder whether years before I was even born-- 123 00:05:58,720 --> 00:06:02,790 I was born 15 years after this photograph was taken. 124 00:06:02,790 --> 00:06:05,100 But certainly, signs like this and practices 125 00:06:05,100 --> 00:06:11,120 that these signs encourage were still in place when I was born. 126 00:06:11,120 --> 00:06:14,370 127 00:06:14,370 --> 00:06:17,210 But as I continued to look at this photograph and others 128 00:06:17,210 --> 00:06:19,670 like it, I would see myself in it differently. 129 00:06:19,670 --> 00:06:22,100 And I would wonder, would I-- 130 00:06:22,100 --> 00:06:23,270 what would I have felt like? 131 00:06:23,270 --> 00:06:24,228 What would I have done? 132 00:06:24,228 --> 00:06:28,380 What would it have been like for me to be in that situation? 133 00:06:28,380 --> 00:06:31,400 So I started to take-- 134 00:06:31,400 --> 00:06:34,570 in public places, it's not uncommon to see double water 135 00:06:34,570 --> 00:06:35,960 fountains. 136 00:06:35,960 --> 00:06:38,930 In public places, it's not uncommon to see other people. 137 00:06:38,930 --> 00:06:40,550 In public places, it's not uncommon 138 00:06:40,550 --> 00:06:43,310 for me to have my phone, which takes pictures. 139 00:06:43,310 --> 00:06:47,060 So that combination of components 140 00:06:47,060 --> 00:06:50,990 inspired me, or has been the motivating piece, and also 141 00:06:50,990 --> 00:06:53,810 the materiality of this series of works. 142 00:06:53,810 --> 00:06:58,580 This is on a beach in California. 143 00:06:58,580 --> 00:07:00,140 I don't recall where this one is. 144 00:07:00,140 --> 00:07:01,109 Instagram remembers. 145 00:07:01,109 --> 00:07:02,150 I don't have to remember. 146 00:07:02,150 --> 00:07:06,350 147 00:07:06,350 --> 00:07:09,650 This is in the State House in South Carolina, three or four 148 00:07:09,650 --> 00:07:11,540 months before the Confederate flag 149 00:07:11,540 --> 00:07:15,680 that was flying about 100 yards away from this spot 150 00:07:15,680 --> 00:07:17,840 where you see me, three or four months before it 151 00:07:17,840 --> 00:07:20,660 was taken down a few years ago. 152 00:07:20,660 --> 00:07:24,920 153 00:07:24,920 --> 00:07:30,370 So my daughter, who is now eight, but at the time 154 00:07:30,370 --> 00:07:35,470 that this photograph was taken, she was about three or four-- 155 00:07:35,470 --> 00:07:39,460 and because I think I'm a pretty good dad, 156 00:07:39,460 --> 00:07:41,890 I take her with me to various places. 157 00:07:41,890 --> 00:07:45,040 And public places have double water fountains. 158 00:07:45,040 --> 00:07:47,710 And she would watch me ask people 159 00:07:47,710 --> 00:07:52,540 to take my picture in front of double water fountains, which 160 00:07:52,540 --> 00:07:55,846 was all well and good, because that's what papa does. 161 00:07:55,846 --> 00:07:56,470 He's an artist. 162 00:07:56,470 --> 00:07:59,820 And he does things and takes images. 163 00:07:59,820 --> 00:08:07,310 But one day, she asked me, Papa, would you take my picture? 164 00:08:07,310 --> 00:08:08,180 I said, sure. 165 00:08:08,180 --> 00:08:09,470 I would be happy to. 166 00:08:09,470 --> 00:08:11,136 But you have to take my picture. 167 00:08:11,136 --> 00:08:13,932 [LAUGHTER] 168 00:08:13,932 --> 00:08:15,800 169 00:08:15,800 --> 00:08:18,320 And so we gain perspectives on the world 170 00:08:18,320 --> 00:08:20,390 through the eyes of other people, 171 00:08:20,390 --> 00:08:23,230 seeing what we see through what they see. 172 00:08:23,230 --> 00:08:28,430 But more than that being an interesting photograph 173 00:08:28,430 --> 00:08:32,459 of this three-year-old angle, a few feet off the ground, 174 00:08:32,459 --> 00:08:36,919 it was also a moment where I realized that the next question 175 00:08:36,919 --> 00:08:39,230 for her after, would you take my picture, 176 00:08:39,230 --> 00:08:43,280 was, Papa, why are you taking these pictures? 177 00:08:43,280 --> 00:08:45,410 So then I had to have conversations 178 00:08:45,410 --> 00:08:47,810 about the history of this country, 179 00:08:47,810 --> 00:08:53,240 and a particular story, an ongoing story, an uncomfortably 180 00:08:53,240 --> 00:08:57,200 challenging story in the history of this country, a story 181 00:08:57,200 --> 00:08:58,820 that we're still writing today. 182 00:08:58,820 --> 00:09:03,170 I had to talk to my daughter about race. 183 00:09:03,170 --> 00:09:06,140 And so this project, the "Double Water Fountains" project, 184 00:09:06,140 --> 00:09:08,480 you can find on Tumblr. 185 00:09:08,480 --> 00:09:10,680 Just look for @bscarpenterii, and there it is. 186 00:09:10,680 --> 00:09:13,790 I post these images quite often. 187 00:09:13,790 --> 00:09:19,310 So I'm saying all this to say, these photographs come 188 00:09:19,310 --> 00:09:24,050 from my interest in and my relationship 189 00:09:24,050 --> 00:09:28,780 with the double water fountain photograph, 190 00:09:28,780 --> 00:09:31,880 or the segregated photograph, by Elliot Erwitt. 191 00:09:31,880 --> 00:09:34,040 This historical photograph, for me, 192 00:09:34,040 --> 00:09:38,720 sits in a conversation with many other photographs like it, 193 00:09:38,720 --> 00:09:43,490 but also within the practices, the policies, 194 00:09:43,490 --> 00:09:49,750 the cultural understandings that allowed for segregated water 195 00:09:49,750 --> 00:09:52,499 fountains and segregation to exist. 196 00:09:52,499 --> 00:09:54,290 LARRY SUSSKIND: If you walk down the street 197 00:09:54,290 --> 00:09:57,080 of Baltimore or Philadelphia-- 198 00:09:57,080 --> 00:10:01,580 and there's plenty of confrontation this last year 199 00:10:01,580 --> 00:10:04,400 in Philadelphia that a lot of people would feel 200 00:10:04,400 --> 00:10:06,920 is racially rooted. 201 00:10:06,920 --> 00:10:09,950 And if you say, oh, we should have more constructive 202 00:10:09,950 --> 00:10:11,870 conversations between people. 203 00:10:11,870 --> 00:10:15,710 They should learn how to deal with conflict 204 00:10:15,710 --> 00:10:21,470 that's in some way connected to or racially defined or rooted. 205 00:10:21,470 --> 00:10:24,080 And well, people don't know how to do that. 206 00:10:24,080 --> 00:10:26,090 They don't know how to do that, to-- 207 00:10:26,090 --> 00:10:26,591 cross race. 208 00:10:26,591 --> 00:10:27,590 STEPHEN CARPENTER: Sure. 209 00:10:27,590 --> 00:10:29,270 LARRY SUSSKIND: And so you think it's 210 00:10:29,270 --> 00:10:32,270 the picture that makes the conversation possible? 211 00:10:32,270 --> 00:10:34,570 It's a pretty harmless picture. 212 00:10:34,570 --> 00:10:37,340 It's not an inflammatory picture. 213 00:10:37,340 --> 00:10:38,420 STEPHEN CARPENTER: No. 214 00:10:38,420 --> 00:10:44,270 So the conversation begins well before the photograph is taken. 215 00:10:44,270 --> 00:10:49,310 The conversation begins well before the Erwitt photograph 216 00:10:49,310 --> 00:10:50,660 is presented. 217 00:10:50,660 --> 00:10:53,570 The conversation begins well before the conversation 218 00:10:53,570 --> 00:10:56,630 about race or history or wherever the direction is. 219 00:10:56,630 --> 00:10:58,666 Right? 220 00:10:58,666 --> 00:11:00,290 So your question about, well, how do we 221 00:11:00,290 --> 00:11:01,790 engage in these conversations-- how 222 00:11:01,790 --> 00:11:03,800 do we engage in these conversations? 223 00:11:03,800 --> 00:11:06,360 We start the conversations. 224 00:11:06,360 --> 00:11:07,190 I don't know that-- 225 00:11:07,190 --> 00:11:12,694 I take it-- I'm concerned that when I hear statements 226 00:11:12,694 --> 00:11:14,360 or there's an assumption that, oh, well, 227 00:11:14,360 --> 00:11:17,150 it's a difficult conversation, we can't talk about it, 228 00:11:17,150 --> 00:11:18,780 I don't think that's the case at all. 229 00:11:18,780 --> 00:11:19,280 We can. 230 00:11:19,280 --> 00:11:20,510 I think it's the starting. 231 00:11:20,510 --> 00:11:22,760 And this is, I think, central to part of your question 232 00:11:22,760 --> 00:11:25,040 is, how do we start those conversations? 233 00:11:25,040 --> 00:11:26,270 I think we need to start it. 234 00:11:26,270 --> 00:11:28,130 The mediator, which is also what I 235 00:11:28,130 --> 00:11:30,410 heard in what you were saying, might be 236 00:11:30,410 --> 00:11:31,730 the camera and the photograph. 237 00:11:31,730 --> 00:11:34,790 It might not be another individual. 238 00:11:34,790 --> 00:11:38,510 The third thing I would say is, and I 239 00:11:38,510 --> 00:11:45,740 hope this came through with my description and my earlier 240 00:11:45,740 --> 00:11:49,280 responses, I'm not trying to persuade anyone. 241 00:11:49,280 --> 00:11:50,900 I'm not trying to make a case. 242 00:11:50,900 --> 00:11:56,690 Or, in your example, where maybe sensing someone's defensive, 243 00:11:56,690 --> 00:12:05,870 I'm not trying to nail them to the wall or prove them wrong, 244 00:12:05,870 --> 00:12:10,610 but bring up other examples that allow us 245 00:12:10,610 --> 00:12:12,950 to continue the conversation. 246 00:12:12,950 --> 00:12:16,261 It's about opening it up rather than saying-- 247 00:12:16,261 --> 00:12:18,260 so for example, if someone said, oh, well, we're 248 00:12:18,260 --> 00:12:20,300 way past that, I'd say, no, you're wrong. 249 00:12:20,300 --> 00:12:22,830 Here's-- I wouldn't-- it's not about, no, you're wrong. 250 00:12:22,830 --> 00:12:25,070 It's, oh, well, what about this? 251 00:12:25,070 --> 00:12:27,060 Or tell me about such and such. 252 00:12:27,060 --> 00:12:33,620 So instead of being persuasive to the point of arguing a point 253 00:12:33,620 --> 00:12:37,910 to convert someone from one perspective to the other, 254 00:12:37,910 --> 00:12:42,450 while that might be, at some level, a goal 255 00:12:42,450 --> 00:12:44,300 for some folks engaged in this work, 256 00:12:44,300 --> 00:12:47,491 I think before one gets there, becoming comfortable, 257 00:12:47,491 --> 00:12:49,490 setting a comfortable space for the conversation 258 00:12:49,490 --> 00:12:50,200 needs to happen. 259 00:12:50,200 --> 00:12:51,408 So it's not about persuasion. 260 00:12:51,408 --> 00:12:54,200 It's about, let's open up that space and talk 261 00:12:54,200 --> 00:12:56,330 about the difficulties within, and the complexities 262 00:12:56,330 --> 00:12:58,020 in that conversation. 263 00:12:58,020 --> 00:13:03,890 LARRY SUSSKIND: So for me, there's something unusual 264 00:13:03,890 --> 00:13:08,120 that I think is attributable to the photograph, to the fact 265 00:13:08,120 --> 00:13:10,580 that the photograph's at the heart 266 00:13:10,580 --> 00:13:12,950 of a conversation about race. 267 00:13:12,950 --> 00:13:15,320 And there's both an old photograph 268 00:13:15,320 --> 00:13:17,810 and a new photograph. 269 00:13:17,810 --> 00:13:22,430 And in some other realms, particularly in the realm 270 00:13:22,430 --> 00:13:25,967 of science, there are difficulties 271 00:13:25,967 --> 00:13:27,800 of people from different disciplines talking 272 00:13:27,800 --> 00:13:29,180 to each other. 273 00:13:29,180 --> 00:13:35,000 And one theory about how to overcome those difficulties 274 00:13:35,000 --> 00:13:40,160 is to use something known as a boundary object. 275 00:13:40,160 --> 00:13:44,880 So it's not me and you and our different disciplines. 276 00:13:44,880 --> 00:13:47,640 It's, oh, here's a map. 277 00:13:47,640 --> 00:13:49,871 And how do you read that map? 278 00:13:49,871 --> 00:13:50,370 Oh, no. 279 00:13:50,370 --> 00:13:51,760 I read that map differently. 280 00:13:51,760 --> 00:13:53,093 What do you think that map said? 281 00:13:53,093 --> 00:13:56,460 Oh, I think-- and I don't have to talk directly 282 00:13:56,460 --> 00:13:59,280 to a person from a different discipline. 283 00:13:59,280 --> 00:14:05,310 We can both be talking about or through the boundary object. 284 00:14:05,310 --> 00:14:07,680 And my question, and the question in my mind 285 00:14:07,680 --> 00:14:11,790 was, does a photograph, in particular, 286 00:14:11,790 --> 00:14:15,050 and a black and white one, in particular, 287 00:14:15,050 --> 00:14:19,860 an old versus a new one, provide a means 288 00:14:19,860 --> 00:14:23,820 to address, in this case, a potentially 289 00:14:23,820 --> 00:14:25,320 difficult conversation? 290 00:14:25,320 --> 00:14:28,590 Now, I think who the people are matters. 291 00:14:28,590 --> 00:14:31,980 And I think your non-defensive style 292 00:14:31,980 --> 00:14:34,860 and your willingness to track the conversation wherever 293 00:14:34,860 --> 00:14:38,700 it goes probably has more to do than anything else 294 00:14:38,700 --> 00:14:42,210 with how the conversations you have turn out. 295 00:14:42,210 --> 00:14:48,360 But I'm trying to see if we might deduce from your project 296 00:14:48,360 --> 00:14:53,430 some kinds of insights about the use of photographs 297 00:14:53,430 --> 00:14:56,100 in particular, but not only, to make 298 00:14:56,100 --> 00:14:58,020 difficult conversations easier. 299 00:14:58,020 --> 00:15:03,210 That's where I'm going with my questions. 300 00:15:03,210 --> 00:15:07,140 STEPHEN CARPENTER: So your example of boundary object 301 00:15:07,140 --> 00:15:08,737 is interesting, because it makes me 302 00:15:08,737 --> 00:15:10,320 think of a couple of different things. 303 00:15:10,320 --> 00:15:13,650 One, when talking about works of art 304 00:15:13,650 --> 00:15:18,570 in schools, or even in galleries, 305 00:15:18,570 --> 00:15:20,670 for a number of reasons that we don't necessarily 306 00:15:20,670 --> 00:15:23,580 need to get into at this point, many folks 307 00:15:23,580 --> 00:15:29,160 are interested in the formal qualities of those works. 308 00:15:29,160 --> 00:15:32,670 And those formal qualities are fine-- formal meaning shape 309 00:15:32,670 --> 00:15:35,940 and color and texture. 310 00:15:35,940 --> 00:15:37,980 But as we start to look and think 311 00:15:37,980 --> 00:15:41,947 about those works of art contextually, 312 00:15:41,947 --> 00:15:43,530 place them into an historical context, 313 00:15:43,530 --> 00:15:46,530 a social, political context, those works 314 00:15:46,530 --> 00:15:49,860 are about those other realms as much as they 315 00:15:49,860 --> 00:15:51,870 are about the physicality, moving it away 316 00:15:51,870 --> 00:15:55,080 from the material, the physical material into other kinds of-- 317 00:15:55,080 --> 00:15:58,830 what might move into new materialisms in some way. 318 00:15:58,830 --> 00:16:02,040 So I think there's a bit of that going on, 319 00:16:02,040 --> 00:16:05,061 where your example of the map, it's not about the physical map 320 00:16:05,061 --> 00:16:05,560 itself. 321 00:16:05,560 --> 00:16:09,580 It's about the representation and the signifying aspects. 322 00:16:09,580 --> 00:16:13,690 Now, these photographs, the black and white component, 323 00:16:13,690 --> 00:16:17,760 the formal aspect, moves it away from-- 324 00:16:17,760 --> 00:16:20,880 and this was intentional for me, because the original dozen 325 00:16:20,880 --> 00:16:24,030 or so that I took were in color. 326 00:16:24,030 --> 00:16:25,860 And there was some distance for me 327 00:16:25,860 --> 00:16:30,480 between those color images and the Erwitt photograph. 328 00:16:30,480 --> 00:16:34,361 And it wasn't until I tinkered with the first one in Instagram 329 00:16:34,361 --> 00:16:36,360 and made it black and white-- and I resisted it, 330 00:16:36,360 --> 00:16:38,151 because I didn't want it to be too literal. 331 00:16:38,151 --> 00:16:39,865 You know? 332 00:16:39,865 --> 00:16:42,540 There was a shift that happened. 333 00:16:42,540 --> 00:16:47,730 The time element flattened. 334 00:16:47,730 --> 00:16:50,790 And so putting oneself in-- there's something about a black 335 00:16:50,790 --> 00:16:54,600 and white photograph that it moves it away from 336 00:16:54,600 --> 00:16:56,250 a contemporary sense of-- 337 00:16:56,250 --> 00:16:58,500 because the color gets removed. 338 00:16:58,500 --> 00:17:01,720 Now, the other piece there is-- 339 00:17:01,720 --> 00:17:04,200 so you know, you want to have an interview with someone. 340 00:17:04,200 --> 00:17:06,780 So you say, OK, bring an object that means something to you. 341 00:17:06,780 --> 00:17:09,119 Or we'll talk about this map. 342 00:17:09,119 --> 00:17:11,859 This photograph, we produced together. 343 00:17:11,859 --> 00:17:14,150 As a matter of fact, the person I'm talking to, 344 00:17:14,150 --> 00:17:16,319 they're the ones who produced it, primarily. 345 00:17:16,319 --> 00:17:17,890 They composed and took the shot. 346 00:17:17,890 --> 00:17:19,990 So they have a degree of ownership and connection 347 00:17:19,990 --> 00:17:20,490 with it. 348 00:17:20,490 --> 00:17:22,960 LARRY SUSSKIND: That's very interesting. 349 00:17:22,960 --> 00:17:27,000 That's a very interesting way of reframing 350 00:17:27,000 --> 00:17:30,870 why it might be easier for them to use 351 00:17:30,870 --> 00:17:34,202 the photo as a basis for the conversation, 352 00:17:34,202 --> 00:17:36,660 because they have part of the ownership of having taken it. 353 00:17:36,660 --> 00:17:38,160 STEPHEN CARPENTER: Not only are they 354 00:17:38,160 --> 00:17:40,341 part of the ownership of having taken it, 355 00:17:40,341 --> 00:17:42,090 but if you look closely at the photograph, 356 00:17:42,090 --> 00:17:44,740 you don't see them in the photograph. 357 00:17:44,740 --> 00:17:46,120 I'm in the photograph. 358 00:17:46,120 --> 00:17:50,940 So anything they say about it is separated from them. 359 00:17:50,940 --> 00:17:54,510 But it gets difficult, too, because the person 360 00:17:54,510 --> 00:17:57,730 in the photograph is the person standing next to them. 361 00:17:57,730 --> 00:17:59,970 So while the photograph allows for some separation 362 00:17:59,970 --> 00:18:04,560 and objectification of that individual, the very subject 363 00:18:04,560 --> 00:18:06,150 at hand is right there. 364 00:18:06,150 --> 00:18:07,440 So there's a complexity there. 365 00:18:07,440 --> 00:18:12,930 But their contribution to the creation 366 00:18:12,930 --> 00:18:14,670 of that work and that ownership, I think, 367 00:18:14,670 --> 00:18:19,145 is key to this conversation. 368 00:18:19,145 --> 00:18:20,520 LARRY SUSSKIND: I've been trying, 369 00:18:20,520 --> 00:18:24,100 since the first time I saw this, to imagine if there 370 00:18:24,100 --> 00:18:30,600 is a method in here to make it easier for conversations that 371 00:18:30,600 --> 00:18:32,820 have race at their root. 372 00:18:32,820 --> 00:18:39,420 But I particularly mean conversations about situations 373 00:18:39,420 --> 00:18:42,440 where race is at their root, and they 374 00:18:42,440 --> 00:18:44,820 are about people being unable to deal 375 00:18:44,820 --> 00:18:49,080 with differences in any other way except through violence. 376 00:18:49,080 --> 00:18:52,740 And so I want to make them harder, 377 00:18:52,740 --> 00:18:54,700 more difficult conversations. 378 00:18:54,700 --> 00:18:57,330 But I'm trying to imagine-- and hopefully, we can actually, 379 00:18:57,330 --> 00:18:59,100 at some point, do this-- 380 00:18:59,100 --> 00:19:07,830 whether the same smoothing or easing effect of the exercise 381 00:19:07,830 --> 00:19:10,560 makes it possible to have a conversation, 382 00:19:10,560 --> 00:19:12,270 which, otherwise, you couldn't have. 383 00:19:12,270 --> 00:19:13,270 STEPHEN CARPENTER: Yeah. 384 00:19:13,270 --> 00:19:14,990 I think so. 385 00:19:14,990 --> 00:19:19,890 A statement that I'll use tomorrow 386 00:19:19,890 --> 00:19:22,680 in the lecture and workshop, but I'll use it right now. 387 00:19:22,680 --> 00:19:25,530 I was in-- it was about three years ago. 388 00:19:25,530 --> 00:19:27,760 I was teaching an undergraduate class 389 00:19:27,760 --> 00:19:31,650 of students who were preparing to be art teachers. 390 00:19:31,650 --> 00:19:33,900 And we were talking about, I said, what is this art? 391 00:19:33,900 --> 00:19:34,761 What does art do? 392 00:19:34,761 --> 00:19:35,760 Why are we studying art? 393 00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:37,385 Why do you want to be a teacher of art? 394 00:19:37,385 --> 00:19:39,750 What is art's role in our lives? 395 00:19:39,750 --> 00:19:42,190 You know, these really small, insignificant questions. 396 00:19:42,190 --> 00:19:44,070 No, it's a big, important question. 397 00:19:44,070 --> 00:19:47,550 And one of the students said, you know, 398 00:19:47,550 --> 00:19:50,430 art allows us to-- among the things 399 00:19:50,430 --> 00:19:53,190 that it does-- but it allows us to tell stories that we might 400 00:19:53,190 --> 00:19:56,040 not be able to tell otherwise, and we probably 401 00:19:56,040 --> 00:19:59,400 can't tell otherwise. 402 00:19:59,400 --> 00:20:01,140 And I thought, oh, yeah. 403 00:20:01,140 --> 00:20:01,890 That makes sense. 404 00:20:01,890 --> 00:20:03,806 LARRY SUSSKIND: It's consistent with the theme 405 00:20:03,806 --> 00:20:06,570 that I'm pursuing. 406 00:20:06,570 --> 00:20:10,230 I mean, people are terrible, if just 407 00:20:10,230 --> 00:20:14,610 caught off-guard and with no special training, trying 408 00:20:14,610 --> 00:20:20,720 to deal with issues that have race or ethnicity, 409 00:20:20,720 --> 00:20:24,840 and many cases, gender, at the heart of the difference 410 00:20:24,840 --> 00:20:26,490 or the conflict. 411 00:20:26,490 --> 00:20:29,670 And I'm just trying to think of this notion of flattening 412 00:20:29,670 --> 00:20:36,480 and overcoming history by having the two black and whites 413 00:20:36,480 --> 00:20:40,830 next to each other in the same location. 414 00:20:40,830 --> 00:20:45,030 And now, not everybody is as charming as you are. 415 00:20:45,030 --> 00:20:48,480 And so they would not get the same response. 416 00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:52,590 But maybe the existence, and the fact 417 00:20:52,590 --> 00:20:55,122 that they took the new picture, which 418 00:20:55,122 --> 00:20:57,330 I hadn't thought of until you said it this afternoon, 419 00:20:57,330 --> 00:20:59,220 is, you know, they own some of this. 420 00:20:59,220 --> 00:21:00,990 So now maybe it's easier for them 421 00:21:00,990 --> 00:21:05,160 to stay with the conversation. 422 00:21:05,160 --> 00:21:09,240 Maybe adding an artist makes-- 423 00:21:09,240 --> 00:21:12,900 and doing these things-- makes it easier. 424 00:21:12,900 --> 00:21:16,661 Also, you start out by saying, I'm an artist 425 00:21:16,661 --> 00:21:17,910 and I'm taking these pictures. 426 00:21:17,910 --> 00:21:18,330 STEPHEN CARPENTER: That's right. 427 00:21:18,330 --> 00:21:19,746 LARRY SUSSKIND: You don't say, I'm 428 00:21:19,746 --> 00:21:22,020 someone waiting on the street corner to ambush you, 429 00:21:22,020 --> 00:21:24,860 because I don't know if I can trust you, 430 00:21:24,860 --> 00:21:26,789 and you probably don't think you can trust me. 431 00:21:26,789 --> 00:21:27,330 None of that. 432 00:21:27,330 --> 00:21:28,700 It's just, I'm an artist. 433 00:21:28,700 --> 00:21:31,720 Will you take a picture of me doing this? 434 00:21:31,720 --> 00:21:35,970 And that's very disarming, in every sense of that phrase. 435 00:21:35,970 --> 00:21:41,790 And then maybe that's the key to moving 436 00:21:41,790 --> 00:21:46,620 toward a conversation where nobody's anxieties 437 00:21:46,620 --> 00:21:52,080 and prejudices go sky high right at the beginning. 438 00:21:52,080 --> 00:21:54,420 Now, I don't know how long it would last, 439 00:21:54,420 --> 00:21:56,010 once you tell them what that side is, 440 00:21:56,010 --> 00:21:58,302 if they didn't already know it, in the model that I'm-- 441 00:21:58,302 --> 00:21:59,301 STEPHEN CARPENTER: Sure. 442 00:21:59,301 --> 00:22:00,990 And they might know it, especially 443 00:22:00,990 --> 00:22:04,110 if they live in that neighborhood or nearby, which 444 00:22:04,110 --> 00:22:07,040 would then be quite a rich conversation, 445 00:22:07,040 --> 00:22:10,540 in unexpected ways, I guess, for the artist 446 00:22:10,540 --> 00:22:13,070 who is initiating their work. 447 00:22:13,070 --> 00:22:28,381