1
00:00:06,420 --> 00:00:08,450
Issues that arise
at work are often

2
00:00:08,450 --> 00:00:11,660
a reflection of
problems occurring

3
00:00:11,660 --> 00:00:13,840
in the larger society
and the tensions

4
00:00:13,840 --> 00:00:15,810
that we're seeing
out there today.

5
00:00:15,810 --> 00:00:18,440
So today, unfortunately
all around the world,

6
00:00:18,440 --> 00:00:22,250
we're seeing conflicts,
sometimes verbal attacks,

7
00:00:22,250 --> 00:00:24,020
sometimes physical attacks.

8
00:00:24,020 --> 00:00:28,830
Maybe it's refugees from Syria
or other war-torn countries

9
00:00:28,830 --> 00:00:31,400
trying to find a place
to live in Europe.

10
00:00:31,400 --> 00:00:33,490
Maybe it's a tax on immigrants.

11
00:00:33,490 --> 00:00:35,310
Maybe in the United
States, now it

12
00:00:35,310 --> 00:00:38,170
seems to be attacks on
religious groups, Muslims.

13
00:00:38,170 --> 00:00:42,750
Sometimes now we're seeing
racial conflicts rise again.

14
00:00:42,750 --> 00:00:46,850
So we thought it would
be useful in this course

15
00:00:46,850 --> 00:00:50,480
to have a conversation about
how these conflicts then affect

16
00:00:50,480 --> 00:00:53,280
the workplace, and
what we've learned

17
00:00:53,280 --> 00:00:57,240
over the years about how to
address them effectively.

18
00:00:57,240 --> 00:01:00,490
And we're fortunate to have
a world-class expert here

19
00:01:00,490 --> 00:01:02,160
to draw on.

20
00:01:02,160 --> 00:01:05,780
I'm talking today with
Professor Mary Rowe, a friend

21
00:01:05,780 --> 00:01:07,580
and colleague here
in the Sloan School.

22
00:01:07,580 --> 00:01:12,960
Mary has been the ombudsperson
for MIT for 40 years,

23
00:01:12,960 --> 00:01:15,330
and she's now taking
time to reflect

24
00:01:15,330 --> 00:01:18,060
on the lessons she learned
from that experience

25
00:01:18,060 --> 00:01:20,920
and its implications for
how we can move forward.

26
00:01:20,920 --> 00:01:23,430
So Mary, thank you
for joining us today.

27
00:01:23,430 --> 00:01:24,670
My pleasure.

28
00:01:24,670 --> 00:01:27,720
So why don't we start
right at the beginning.

29
00:01:27,720 --> 00:01:31,340
What is an ombudsman or a
ombudsperson or ombuds--

30
00:01:31,340 --> 00:01:33,300
whatever the
appropriate term is?

31
00:01:33,300 --> 00:01:37,730
And what does a person
in that role do?

32
00:01:37,730 --> 00:01:40,170
An organizational ombud--
and there's lots of us

33
00:01:40,170 --> 00:01:41,250
now around the world.

34
00:01:41,250 --> 00:01:44,160
I'm guessing that there
are probably about 1,000

35
00:01:44,160 --> 00:01:47,320
of us in corporations
and government agencies

36
00:01:47,320 --> 00:01:50,170
and academic institutions
around the world.

37
00:01:50,170 --> 00:01:52,300
It's a neutral.

38
00:01:52,300 --> 00:01:54,880
Many people know
what a mediator does.

39
00:01:54,880 --> 00:01:59,470
And if you can imagine
an internal mediator who

40
00:01:59,470 --> 00:02:02,860
works on any kind of problem
that comes to him or her,

41
00:02:02,860 --> 00:02:05,410
that begins the picture.

42
00:02:05,410 --> 00:02:09,479
We're independent of all
line and staff offices.

43
00:02:09,479 --> 00:02:12,370
By standards of
practice, we report

44
00:02:12,370 --> 00:02:16,320
to the chief executive officer
or above him or her to a board.

45
00:02:16,320 --> 00:02:17,960
We're informal.

46
00:02:17,960 --> 00:02:19,720
We don't have any
management power.

47
00:02:19,720 --> 00:02:22,500
We can't fix anything.

48
00:02:22,500 --> 00:02:26,510
And we are confidential.

49
00:02:26,510 --> 00:02:31,240
That's perhaps the most
important thing for your talk

50
00:02:31,240 --> 00:02:32,060
today.

51
00:02:32,060 --> 00:02:36,150
We keep no case records
for our organizations.

52
00:02:36,150 --> 00:02:40,330
Anybody can-- we're called
a zero-barrier office.

53
00:02:40,330 --> 00:02:42,310
We should establish
an office where

54
00:02:42,310 --> 00:02:45,250
there are no barriers
at all to being

55
00:02:45,250 --> 00:02:48,490
able to come to talk with us.

56
00:02:48,490 --> 00:02:50,150
Well, that's a
good introduction.

57
00:02:50,150 --> 00:02:54,690
And I know you have emphasized
the need for multiple tools

58
00:02:54,690 --> 00:02:59,300
to fit into what you have called
a conflict management system.

59
00:02:59,300 --> 00:03:01,370
Could you describe what
some of these tools

60
00:03:01,370 --> 00:03:06,780
are that are needed for people
in your role to be effective?

61
00:03:06,780 --> 00:03:10,940
Well, people in my role
need various kinds of tools.

62
00:03:10,940 --> 00:03:15,270
We think of a sense of humor,
integrity, intelligence,

63
00:03:15,270 --> 00:03:16,480
caring.

64
00:03:16,480 --> 00:03:19,850
Especially important,
especially because of what

65
00:03:19,850 --> 00:03:22,940
you were saying before about
the origins of conflict,

66
00:03:22,940 --> 00:03:25,280
we think of ombudsmen
as needing to have a lot

67
00:03:25,280 --> 00:03:26,830
of cross-cultural experience.

68
00:03:26,830 --> 00:03:30,090
And indeed, my profession is
one of the best integrated

69
00:03:30,090 --> 00:03:33,030
professions in the world
by race and by gender.

70
00:03:33,030 --> 00:03:35,180
I'm very proud of that.

71
00:03:35,180 --> 00:03:37,280
But I think you're
also thinking about

72
00:03:37,280 --> 00:03:40,790
what needs to be in an
organizational system

73
00:03:40,790 --> 00:03:44,320
to deal with conflicts in the
workplace and with students,

74
00:03:44,320 --> 00:03:44,890
and so on.

75
00:03:44,890 --> 00:03:45,530
Is that right?

76
00:03:45,530 --> 00:03:46,170
That's right.

77
00:03:46,170 --> 00:03:49,840
Some of the tools and the
options that I know you

78
00:03:49,840 --> 00:03:51,890
consider important.

79
00:03:51,890 --> 00:03:53,880
Lots of people who think
about this question

80
00:03:53,880 --> 00:03:57,580
think first about, do we have
a formal grievance procedure?

81
00:03:57,580 --> 00:04:01,260
And that, of course, is
a very important question

82
00:04:01,260 --> 00:04:04,680
for the most grievous
problems and the ones that

83
00:04:04,680 --> 00:04:06,680
need a management decision.

84
00:04:06,680 --> 00:04:12,750
But most problems will
yield to people thinking

85
00:04:12,750 --> 00:04:15,080
about their own
interests and those

86
00:04:15,080 --> 00:04:18,160
of others at what
people-- at what

87
00:04:18,160 --> 00:04:21,120
organizations think of as
the lowest possible level.

88
00:04:21,120 --> 00:04:24,600
So at the lowest
possible level, we

89
00:04:24,600 --> 00:04:27,370
want conflict settled
onsite, if possible.

90
00:04:27,370 --> 00:04:30,880
And at the last
end of the line, we

91
00:04:30,880 --> 00:04:32,700
would think of formal
grievance procedures,

92
00:04:32,700 --> 00:04:35,130
and then there are lots and
lots of steps in between.

93
00:04:35,130 --> 00:04:38,770
And some of those
steps really empower

94
00:04:38,770 --> 00:04:42,900
individuals to deal with
conflicts more effectively.

95
00:04:42,900 --> 00:04:45,690
And I know you have spent
a lot of time working

96
00:04:45,690 --> 00:04:47,850
to help individuals
figure out what

97
00:04:47,850 --> 00:04:51,730
options are best for her or
for him in addressing these.

98
00:04:51,730 --> 00:04:54,050
What would some of
those options be?

99
00:04:54,050 --> 00:04:55,530
When people think
about ombudsmen

100
00:04:55,530 --> 00:04:58,150
or when they think about
taking an ombuds job,

101
00:04:58,150 --> 00:05:02,010
they often think about
conflict management

102
00:05:02,010 --> 00:05:03,920
as dispute resolution.

103
00:05:03,920 --> 00:05:07,320
A given dispute comes, and
they step in with a magic wand

104
00:05:07,320 --> 00:05:08,560
and fix it.

105
00:05:08,560 --> 00:05:12,670
And point of fact, very
good ombuds and those

106
00:05:12,670 --> 00:05:15,790
in place for a long time
generally spend more than half

107
00:05:15,790 --> 00:05:18,010
their time helping
people help themselves

108
00:05:18,010 --> 00:05:21,550
to learn how to
deal with conflicts

109
00:05:21,550 --> 00:05:22,990
and even to prevent them.

110
00:05:22,990 --> 00:05:27,330
And that's true for both
individuals and for groups.

111
00:05:27,330 --> 00:05:29,320
So helping people
help themselves,

112
00:05:29,320 --> 00:05:33,170
listening to people
talk about their issues,

113
00:05:33,170 --> 00:05:37,240
getting them to
articulate their concerns,

114
00:05:37,240 --> 00:05:42,470
having more formal consultation
in organizations and forums

115
00:05:42,470 --> 00:05:47,520
for affinity groups, and maybe
sometimes counsels of people

116
00:05:47,520 --> 00:05:48,490
coming together.

117
00:05:48,490 --> 00:05:51,270
These are all part of
a larger system that I

118
00:05:51,270 --> 00:05:53,656
know you have emphasized.

119
00:05:53,656 --> 00:05:55,530
Do we have room for me
to tell a quick story?

120
00:05:55,530 --> 00:05:56,390
Sure.

121
00:05:56,390 --> 00:05:58,790
You know, I'm just looking
back at my old papers.

122
00:05:58,790 --> 00:06:03,880
In the 1970s and '80s,
I was young economist,

123
00:06:03,880 --> 00:06:06,690
and I came from
the outside to MIT.

124
00:06:06,690 --> 00:06:10,850
I was overwhelmed
by having 100 people

125
00:06:10,850 --> 00:06:13,070
come to me in my first
week, no two of them

126
00:06:13,070 --> 00:06:14,400
with the same issue.

127
00:06:14,400 --> 00:06:17,670
And I didn't have any
expertise on any one of them.

128
00:06:17,670 --> 00:06:21,500
But what I did do
with the total backing

129
00:06:21,500 --> 00:06:25,770
of my boss, the president,
was to get any two people who

130
00:06:25,770 --> 00:06:29,930
had the same issue together with
each other to try to figure out

131
00:06:29,930 --> 00:06:33,350
what kind of systems change
might help deal with that issue

132
00:06:33,350 --> 00:06:35,030
or even prevent it.

133
00:06:35,030 --> 00:06:37,020
Now here's what I
just discovered.

134
00:06:37,020 --> 00:06:42,440
In those 17 years, there were
at least 60 women's groups alone

135
00:06:42,440 --> 00:06:44,070
and many minority groups--

136
00:06:44,070 --> 00:06:46,300
I haven't yet got a
perfect count of them--

137
00:06:46,300 --> 00:06:49,690
and many cohort groups like
engineering assistance,

138
00:06:49,690 --> 00:06:52,640
who got themselves together
to, as affinity groups,

139
00:06:52,640 --> 00:06:54,880
if you will, to
propose solutions.

140
00:06:54,880 --> 00:06:58,110
So that's just one example
of what you're seeing.

141
00:06:58,110 --> 00:07:01,340
Well, I like the emphasis
that you put on systems,

142
00:07:01,340 --> 00:07:04,370
that these different
options need to be there,

143
00:07:04,370 --> 00:07:06,910
because people have
different preferences for how

144
00:07:06,910 --> 00:07:09,150
they approach these issues.

145
00:07:09,150 --> 00:07:12,490
And you have been very
skillful in helping

146
00:07:12,490 --> 00:07:14,740
people find something
they're comfortable with.

147
00:07:14,740 --> 00:07:17,920
And I think that's really
critical to making these work.

148
00:07:17,920 --> 00:07:22,610
But you've also developed this
concept of micro-inequities.

149
00:07:22,610 --> 00:07:26,480
And we've heard about
microaggressions,

150
00:07:26,480 --> 00:07:29,340
but you've kind of
turned that into ways

151
00:07:29,340 --> 00:07:32,180
to deal with these
in positive ways.

152
00:07:32,180 --> 00:07:34,150
What are micro-inequities?

153
00:07:34,150 --> 00:07:37,690
And then we can talk about
how to perhaps deal with them.

154
00:07:37,690 --> 00:07:39,600
But this is something
that I think

155
00:07:39,600 --> 00:07:46,110
is particularly unique
to your own work.

156
00:07:46,110 --> 00:07:49,010
I was very honored
before and just

157
00:07:49,010 --> 00:07:53,760
after I came to MIT to have as
a mentor Dr. Chester Pierce.

158
00:07:53,760 --> 00:07:57,830
Many people nowadays remember
him, a very prominent

159
00:07:57,830 --> 00:08:01,450
psychiatrist and a neurologist.

160
00:08:01,450 --> 00:08:06,090
Chet Pierce came up with
the idea of microaggressions

161
00:08:06,090 --> 00:08:12,430
in 1970, talking about racism
and talking about hostile acts.

162
00:08:12,430 --> 00:08:15,150
And he was simply
extraordinary in helping

163
00:08:15,150 --> 00:08:17,300
to develop that idea.

164
00:08:17,300 --> 00:08:22,100
When I came to MIT, very
grateful to him for what

165
00:08:22,100 --> 00:08:24,270
I had learned about
microaggressions.

166
00:08:24,270 --> 00:08:28,550
I found microaggressions,
and of course we still do.

167
00:08:28,550 --> 00:08:32,760
But I found a great
deal more besides.

168
00:08:32,760 --> 00:08:35,559
There are hostile acts,
as all of us know,

169
00:08:35,559 --> 00:08:38,330
and there's a great deal
of small acts of racism,

170
00:08:38,330 --> 00:08:41,909
and religious intolerance,
and sexism, and so on.

171
00:08:41,909 --> 00:08:47,420
In addition, I discovered a
lot of complaints and concerns

172
00:08:47,420 --> 00:08:51,640
that appeared to me to arise
out of unconscious bias.

173
00:08:51,640 --> 00:08:54,770
That is to say, not
available to the person who

174
00:08:54,770 --> 00:08:59,150
is behaving in a way that
he or she might even regret.

175
00:08:59,150 --> 00:09:02,760
And in 1973, I found
myself doing this.

176
00:09:02,760 --> 00:09:07,060
And in fact, my kids were simply
delighted to catch me doing it.

177
00:09:07,060 --> 00:09:09,910
So unconscious bias
was a big deal for me,

178
00:09:09,910 --> 00:09:13,700
and then I began to discover
these little aggressions

179
00:09:13,700 --> 00:09:16,640
or inequities, if
you will, that seemed

180
00:09:16,640 --> 00:09:18,700
to arise just out of negligence.

181
00:09:18,700 --> 00:09:21,870
I knew better, but
I just blew it.

182
00:09:21,870 --> 00:09:24,840
And then finally, there
was a large clump of them.

183
00:09:24,840 --> 00:09:28,990
Again, problems that
were problems for me

184
00:09:28,990 --> 00:09:34,930
myself that arose out of what
I will call innocent ignorance.

185
00:09:34,930 --> 00:09:37,740
A lot of ignorance
is not innocent.

186
00:09:37,740 --> 00:09:42,270
But I lived in West
Africa just before I came.

187
00:09:42,270 --> 00:09:46,250
I inadvertently served
food with my left hand

188
00:09:46,250 --> 00:09:48,440
to Muslim colleagues.

189
00:09:48,440 --> 00:09:52,290
I made the mistake of
showing the bottom of my foot

190
00:09:52,290 --> 00:09:59,220
in a meeting, and in a very
polite Muslim meeting in West

191
00:09:59,220 --> 00:10:00,290
Africa.

192
00:10:00,290 --> 00:10:03,100
I learned that it's
very easy to be

193
00:10:03,100 --> 00:10:06,920
very offensive on
the basis of problems

194
00:10:06,920 --> 00:10:09,090
that one just didn't know exist.

195
00:10:09,090 --> 00:10:12,490
So with great respect and
with Chet Pierce's blessing,

196
00:10:12,490 --> 00:10:15,230
I extended the idea
of microaggressions

197
00:10:15,230 --> 00:10:19,470
to include these other
huge groups of problems.

198
00:10:19,470 --> 00:10:22,890
Sexism as well as racism,
and just plain bullying,

199
00:10:22,890 --> 00:10:24,270
as well as either.

200
00:10:24,270 --> 00:10:24,770
Yeah.

201
00:10:24,770 --> 00:10:30,710
So these micro-inequities often
are happening even though we're

202
00:10:30,710 --> 00:10:33,030
not always aware of them.

203
00:10:33,030 --> 00:10:37,840
But you've tried to make
this a more positive approach

204
00:10:37,840 --> 00:10:39,670
to addressing these issues.

205
00:10:39,670 --> 00:10:41,670
And you call them
micro-affirmations.

206
00:10:41,670 --> 00:10:43,200
Tell us what you mean by that.

207
00:10:43,200 --> 00:10:46,000
Give us some examples
of how one can deal

208
00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:48,350
with these micro-inequities.

209
00:10:48,350 --> 00:10:53,370
Again, it was partly in
an effort to make sure

210
00:10:53,370 --> 00:10:58,400
that I was myself not
committing, if you will,

211
00:10:58,400 --> 00:11:00,750
micro-inequities right and left.

212
00:11:00,750 --> 00:11:02,790
And here was my problem, Tom.

213
00:11:02,790 --> 00:11:05,110
I thought to myself, if
some of these problems

214
00:11:05,110 --> 00:11:07,680
come from unconscious
bias, and there's

215
00:11:07,680 --> 00:11:11,400
no way we can be aware,
without a lot of work at least,

216
00:11:11,400 --> 00:11:14,620
to be aware of our
own unconscious bias,

217
00:11:14,620 --> 00:11:17,410
what hope is there for me?

218
00:11:17,410 --> 00:11:19,730
So I read and I thought.

219
00:11:22,250 --> 00:11:24,810
Psychology gave me
a clue, which is

220
00:11:24,810 --> 00:11:28,500
that if one always behaves
in a respectful way

221
00:11:28,500 --> 00:11:31,460
and seeks out that
which can be affirmed

222
00:11:31,460 --> 00:11:34,400
in everything around
one in one's work group,

223
00:11:34,400 --> 00:11:37,220
always genuinely, of course,
things that really are going

224
00:11:37,220 --> 00:11:40,190
well, if one's
whole life is spent

225
00:11:40,190 --> 00:11:43,830
in genuine affirmation of
other people's excellence

226
00:11:43,830 --> 00:11:46,600
and in respectful
behavior, you can block

227
00:11:46,600 --> 00:11:49,270
your own unconscious bias.

228
00:11:49,270 --> 00:11:52,680
So my first thought
about affirmations

229
00:11:52,680 --> 00:11:56,900
was really in an effort to
do something about myself.

230
00:11:56,900 --> 00:11:58,970
It turns out that
micro-affirmations

231
00:11:58,970 --> 00:12:01,950
have a whole lot of other
good aspects to them.

232
00:12:01,950 --> 00:12:03,590
They make people happy.

233
00:12:03,590 --> 00:12:05,930
The work of the
negotiation project

234
00:12:05,930 --> 00:12:11,540
on core emotional concerns shows
that approval and affirmation

235
00:12:11,540 --> 00:12:14,740
are two of the most important
core emotional concerns

236
00:12:14,740 --> 00:12:17,720
that every single person
has all over the world.

237
00:12:17,720 --> 00:12:21,460
And if I lived my life
in micro-affirmations,

238
00:12:21,460 --> 00:12:27,080
I am by definition reaching out
to the core emotional wishes

239
00:12:27,080 --> 00:12:28,990
of everybody I'm
interacting with.

240
00:12:28,990 --> 00:12:30,920
And those are just two of the--

241
00:12:30,920 --> 00:12:32,800
you'll have a chart--

242
00:12:32,800 --> 00:12:35,960
those are just two of the
ways that micro-affirmations

243
00:12:35,960 --> 00:12:37,110
can be helpful.

244
00:12:37,110 --> 00:12:42,550
So by affirming good
behavior and recognizing it

245
00:12:42,550 --> 00:12:45,860
and providing psychological
rewards and role

246
00:12:45,860 --> 00:12:49,860
modeling in your own
behavior, you often

247
00:12:49,860 --> 00:12:52,400
make it contagious for
others in one's work group,

248
00:12:52,400 --> 00:12:53,140
it sounds like.

249
00:12:53,140 --> 00:12:56,450
This is the way
in which you show

250
00:12:56,450 --> 00:12:58,810
by creating an
environment of support

251
00:12:58,810 --> 00:13:01,920
that we aren't going
to tolerate inequities.

252
00:13:01,920 --> 00:13:05,400
And you change attitudes
by changing behavior.

253
00:13:05,400 --> 00:13:06,690
Exactly so.

254
00:13:06,690 --> 00:13:10,110
We've known for a long time
that attitudes affect behavior.

255
00:13:10,110 --> 00:13:12,750
More recently, we've
learned that our behavior

256
00:13:12,750 --> 00:13:15,000
can change our own attitudes.

257
00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:15,870
That's a big deal.

258
00:13:15,870 --> 00:13:17,880
I think that's a
really important point.

259
00:13:17,880 --> 00:13:23,790
And it has good
psychological research bases,

260
00:13:23,790 --> 00:13:26,460
but it also just makes
good common sense

261
00:13:26,460 --> 00:13:30,620
that we learn from each others'
experience at young ages

262
00:13:30,620 --> 00:13:33,350
and in our workplaces as well.

263
00:13:33,350 --> 00:13:35,170
So that's very helpful.

264
00:13:35,170 --> 00:13:37,590
But I want to turn
to another idea

265
00:13:37,590 --> 00:13:40,620
that you have
championed and used

266
00:13:40,620 --> 00:13:43,230
so effectively over the
years, and that's something

267
00:13:43,230 --> 00:13:46,760
that we call bystanders,
that you call bystanders

268
00:13:46,760 --> 00:13:47,820
in particular.

269
00:13:47,820 --> 00:13:52,400
And we're all bystanders, and
we see bad things happening

270
00:13:52,400 --> 00:13:54,390
in our workplace, in our--

271
00:13:54,390 --> 00:13:56,420
wherever we are in society.

272
00:13:56,420 --> 00:14:00,140
And we come home, and the next
morning in the shower we say,

273
00:14:00,140 --> 00:14:02,770
gee, I wish I would
have done something.

274
00:14:02,770 --> 00:14:04,840
Tell us what you've
learned about how

275
00:14:04,840 --> 00:14:13,520
to be an effective
intervener when one sees them

276
00:14:13,520 --> 00:14:16,150
in a bystander role
and sees something bad

277
00:14:16,150 --> 00:14:18,720
happening at the workplace.

278
00:14:18,720 --> 00:14:21,670
Bystanders have a bad
name all over the world.

279
00:14:21,670 --> 00:14:23,760
And in fact, the
term bystander effect

280
00:14:23,760 --> 00:14:25,360
is often used to
mean somebody who

281
00:14:25,360 --> 00:14:31,260
stands by and lets racism or
unsafe behavior or something

282
00:14:31,260 --> 00:14:34,300
terrible happen.

283
00:14:34,300 --> 00:14:37,100
When I began looking
at all of this,

284
00:14:37,100 --> 00:14:41,660
I began looking at it from the
point of view of an ombudsman

285
00:14:41,660 --> 00:14:46,010
because where very bad
things or very good things

286
00:14:46,010 --> 00:14:50,460
happen in the workplace, usually
there's no supervisor there,

287
00:14:50,460 --> 00:14:52,370
but there are peers
and bystanders.

288
00:14:52,370 --> 00:14:54,700
So I thought, here
is enormous leverage

289
00:14:54,700 --> 00:14:57,970
either in getting wonderful
recognition for good behavior

290
00:14:57,970 --> 00:15:00,970
or in getting unacceptable
behavior stopped.

291
00:15:00,970 --> 00:15:04,220
So I began to study it.

292
00:15:04,220 --> 00:15:07,580
First of all, the bystander
effect, the so-called bystander

293
00:15:07,580 --> 00:15:11,380
effect, it was studied
in a very narrow context.

294
00:15:11,380 --> 00:15:14,790
And even in that context,
it isn't always the case.

295
00:15:14,790 --> 00:15:16,990
But so what do
bystanders actually

296
00:15:16,990 --> 00:15:20,630
do when they see something
unacceptable or scary?

297
00:15:20,630 --> 00:15:22,550
It could be a safety problem.

298
00:15:22,550 --> 00:15:24,080
It could be a mistake.

299
00:15:24,080 --> 00:15:25,660
It could be an error.

300
00:15:25,660 --> 00:15:28,940
Or it could be really
unacceptable personal behavior

301
00:15:28,940 --> 00:15:31,390
or group behavior.

302
00:15:31,390 --> 00:15:34,740
Most bystanders
funnel very quickly

303
00:15:34,740 --> 00:15:36,720
through a great many options.

304
00:15:36,720 --> 00:15:40,100
And this is really the point
of where I'm coming to.

305
00:15:40,100 --> 00:15:44,840
Those who run organizations
usually think of bystanders

306
00:15:44,840 --> 00:15:49,270
as either doing nothing
or reporting immediately

307
00:15:49,270 --> 00:15:51,060
to the authorities.

308
00:15:51,060 --> 00:15:54,960
That meaning, responsible
bystanders do nothing,

309
00:15:54,960 --> 00:15:58,310
or I guess they
don't do anything.

310
00:15:58,310 --> 00:16:02,100
And if they're responsible,
they only report to authorities.

311
00:16:02,100 --> 00:16:04,920
In real life, bystanders do
all kinds of other things,

312
00:16:04,920 --> 00:16:08,750
and I began to study that for
my last 15 years as an ombud.

313
00:16:08,750 --> 00:16:12,990
I collected everything that
people told me in my office

314
00:16:12,990 --> 00:16:15,450
that they had
considered when they

315
00:16:15,450 --> 00:16:18,730
saw either wonderful behavior
or terrible behavior.

316
00:16:18,730 --> 00:16:21,030
What options did they consider?

317
00:16:21,030 --> 00:16:23,750
And it's very rare
that they considered

318
00:16:23,750 --> 00:16:28,250
going to authorities, and
mostly they did want to act.

319
00:16:28,250 --> 00:16:31,840
So they came up with lots
of other possible options

320
00:16:31,840 --> 00:16:37,490
for how to get something fixed
or prevented or remediated.

321
00:16:37,490 --> 00:16:39,190
What would some of
those options be?

322
00:16:39,190 --> 00:16:42,860
Obviously, it means one
has to sort of disrupt

323
00:16:42,860 --> 00:16:48,440
the behavior in real
time in some way,

324
00:16:48,440 --> 00:16:50,130
or change the behavior.

325
00:16:50,130 --> 00:16:55,750
So can you give us an example
or examples of actions

326
00:16:55,750 --> 00:16:59,537
that you've seen people take
that have been effective?

327
00:16:59,537 --> 00:17:01,370
Well, again, your
question is a perfect one.

328
00:17:01,370 --> 00:17:04,970
Because in real life, people
often don't act on the spot,

329
00:17:04,970 --> 00:17:05,730
in the moment.

330
00:17:08,217 --> 00:17:09,050
They think about it.

331
00:17:09,050 --> 00:17:11,130
And they might act on
the spot in the moment,

332
00:17:11,130 --> 00:17:14,260
but they think about it,
and they worry about it.

333
00:17:14,260 --> 00:17:17,720
This is the responsible
bystander again.

334
00:17:17,720 --> 00:17:19,390
Some of the options
they choose would

335
00:17:19,390 --> 00:17:22,470
be to go home and talk
with trusted family,

336
00:17:22,470 --> 00:17:25,510
or in the workplace with
trusted friends and peers.

337
00:17:25,510 --> 00:17:30,050
Or if they have a boss
that they really trust,

338
00:17:30,050 --> 00:17:33,140
they might ask about
it hypothetically.

339
00:17:33,140 --> 00:17:35,930
Like, boss, if
something like this

340
00:17:35,930 --> 00:17:38,280
were to happen, what
would you think about it?

341
00:17:38,280 --> 00:17:44,050
What could the organization
do with a problem like this?

342
00:17:44,050 --> 00:17:45,740
Other possibilities
would be that they

343
00:17:45,740 --> 00:17:48,340
would get a generic
approach to deal with it.

344
00:17:48,340 --> 00:17:51,310
If it's an organization
that does a lot of training,

345
00:17:51,310 --> 00:17:54,695
maybe a training program that
can be brought in in which

346
00:17:54,695 --> 00:17:56,695
we just happen to mention
this kind of behavior.

347
00:17:59,280 --> 00:18:03,080
Sometimes a person will act, but
only together with a coworker.

348
00:18:03,080 --> 00:18:09,130
So Tom, I'm thinking now, who
do I trust in my workplace?

349
00:18:09,130 --> 00:18:12,030
Who would come with me
to talk with a boss?

350
00:18:12,030 --> 00:18:14,750
I wonder if I
could write a note.

351
00:18:14,750 --> 00:18:17,280
I wonder if there's
any manager who cares

352
00:18:17,280 --> 00:18:18,450
about this kind of behavior.

353
00:18:18,450 --> 00:18:20,450
Sometimes it might be
[? audit,  ?] for example,

354
00:18:20,450 --> 00:18:22,850
or it might be the EEO office.

355
00:18:22,850 --> 00:18:24,860
Maybe I could write
a note and have

356
00:18:24,860 --> 00:18:27,870
them think about
this kind of problem

357
00:18:27,870 --> 00:18:31,210
in my section of
my organization.

358
00:18:31,210 --> 00:18:34,010
So there are lots and
lots of different options

359
00:18:34,010 --> 00:18:37,430
that responsible
bystanders will choose.

360
00:18:37,430 --> 00:18:40,100
Well, I like the
way in which you

361
00:18:40,100 --> 00:18:45,280
describe how you talk with
people to generate options

362
00:18:45,280 --> 00:18:46,240
like this.

363
00:18:46,240 --> 00:18:50,230
Maybe really skilled
people or people

364
00:18:50,230 --> 00:18:53,620
who have a mindset can
interrupt behavior on the spot,

365
00:18:53,620 --> 00:18:57,180
but often it's reflecting,
OK, what could I do tomorrow?

366
00:18:57,180 --> 00:19:01,240
What could I do
today in retrospect?

367
00:19:01,240 --> 00:19:05,840
And it's finding those different
approaches that's so key.

368
00:19:05,840 --> 00:19:09,530
So if I'm hearing you right,
Mary, what you're saying

369
00:19:09,530 --> 00:19:13,680
is organizations
really need to have

370
00:19:13,680 --> 00:19:20,350
respected, independent neutrals
who are supported by a conflict

371
00:19:20,350 --> 00:19:23,310
management system
with multiple options,

372
00:19:23,310 --> 00:19:25,860
because people have different
approaches to dealing

373
00:19:25,860 --> 00:19:28,910
with workplace problems, and
they need different outlets

374
00:19:28,910 --> 00:19:30,480
for addressing them.

375
00:19:30,480 --> 00:19:33,790
And then secondly, they need
to have tools and training

376
00:19:33,790 --> 00:19:36,430
so that not only are
the professionals

377
00:19:36,430 --> 00:19:40,470
good at addressing these
issues, but so are managers,

378
00:19:40,470 --> 00:19:44,070
and so are frontline
employees, so that they

379
00:19:44,070 --> 00:19:48,150
can be ready to put
these tools to use,

380
00:19:48,150 --> 00:19:50,230
and they have to
trust these tools.

381
00:19:50,230 --> 00:19:52,450
And then third, you
have to create a culture

382
00:19:52,450 --> 00:19:58,320
in the organization that
empowers people to take action

383
00:19:58,320 --> 00:20:01,200
to help themselves and
help others safely.

384
00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:04,630
So do you have
any final thoughts

385
00:20:04,630 --> 00:20:08,410
on how we can put all
these tools to use

386
00:20:08,410 --> 00:20:13,890
to deal with the modern problems
that we see in workplaces

387
00:20:13,890 --> 00:20:14,830
today?

388
00:20:14,830 --> 00:20:16,090
I have two final thoughts.

389
00:20:16,090 --> 00:20:18,950
One is if you who
are listening to this

390
00:20:18,950 --> 00:20:21,850
is just an individual by
yourself, and maybe even young

391
00:20:21,850 --> 00:20:24,770
and you think you have
no power, you always

392
00:20:24,770 --> 00:20:27,810
have options, just one
person, to make things

393
00:20:27,810 --> 00:20:29,420
better wherever you are.

394
00:20:29,420 --> 00:20:33,180
If you who are listening
to this are a manager,

395
00:20:33,180 --> 00:20:38,050
think about a systems approach
within your organization

396
00:20:38,050 --> 00:20:43,000
to help other people to help
you with a strategic plan

397
00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:46,090
to build an affirming workplace.

398
00:20:46,090 --> 00:20:47,730
Well, Mary, thank you very much.

399
00:20:47,730 --> 00:20:50,580
Thank you for all that you do
and all that you have done,

400
00:20:50,580 --> 00:20:53,370
not only here in
our organization,

401
00:20:53,370 --> 00:20:55,830
but around the
world to help others

402
00:20:55,830 --> 00:20:59,030
build these kinds of
systems and capacity.

403
00:20:59,030 --> 00:21:01,954
And so there's lots
of issues to address,

404
00:21:01,954 --> 00:21:03,370
and we just have
to stick with it.

405
00:21:03,370 --> 00:21:04,560
So thank you very much.

406
00:21:04,560 --> 00:21:06,400
Thank you, Tom.